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hang on our episode on Parliament's foods a few months back with so much fun that I wanted to do another instalment and this one ended up because they make. to be rather large stories to have just to foods. First is a salad that much like other economists foods we have talked about, came together, improvisational early and out of necessity and a second, a cracker made to align with specific dietary guide. times with a namesake who would, without a doubt, be horrified at how that item has Today we are going to talk about the Cesar Salad and the Graham Cracker, so a mainstay on restaurant menus is, of course, the Cesar salad. Thus, Caesar salad is not named after Julius Caesar, as you might have thought.

least, it probably was not- and it's also a much newer invention that you might have thought it was made in the twentieth century. But this is also one of those items that has some conflict and its origin story. So the main story and the one that is most widely repeated is about. Man named Caesar Cardenio, who was born of Alardo Ceasar Gardini in the Navarro region of ITALY and the western shore of law, the Missouri in eighteen. Eighty six. He had five siblings, really known the Rio Carlotta Gardens YO and the youngest Alessandra and thou, although he was born, of course, with the italian spelling of his name, which ended in cardenio use the spelling that we would normally associate with Julius Caesar, including on the signs for his restaurants so professionally. He he went by Caesar what kind of the English I spelling and we're gonna get to those restroom

momentarily fees are moved to the United States. After having worked for a number of summers and Canada. First, he moved to San Francisco, worked as a waiter at the palace hotel, but he moved to Sacramento California and open the restaurant called browns with his business partner, William Brown, but then in the late one thousand, nine hundred and nineteen a lot of people were avoiding public places because of the influenza. Pandemics of the restaurant was closed. Cesar went back to ITALY for a time and then back North America, first in Montreal, and then eventually San Diego, where his brother Alex joined him and nineteen twenty two and because of prohibition the cardenio operated a restaurant across the. U S mexican border in Tijuana where they could serve drinks to their patrons along with their food. They also did kind of a night clubs,

and it was very common for residents of the U S to cross the border to frequent establishments in Mexico. For this reason and the Cardenio restaurant, which was called Caesar's place and which had opened in nineteen twenty three was very popular according to Cardenio himself. Here's the origin of the salad, MRS, usually dated two nineteen twenty four, although there are also different years cited depending on the source material quote, it was a fourth of July weekend. Over thirty five years ago, I had my restaurant and see a want of. Then we were out of food and suppliers were closed. I went back to the kitchen and tick Envy

Sorry, there were a few crates of romaine lettuce: half a creative eggs, a been of stale bread and a wheel of Romano Chiefs. That was all with all those people out front that wanted to eat. So I rolled up my sleeves, I rubbed the bowl with garlic broke up the remain in coddled, the eggs I had. My cooks cut up the stale, bread and so good. An olive oil then put it in the oven. host, I mixed the eggs and let us with pair vinegar and green olive oil added the grated cheese and toasted croutons. That was it asks for the tradition of mixing the salad table side that also, according to Dna came from the scarcity of options in the kitchen. If custom, only had one choice of dish on the menu carlini figured. His servers could at least make a show of serving it, but the There is not the only person who claim to have invented the salad. Another man named Paul measure,

who was parties business partner, said it was him who, through the salad together and that because he had made it for airmen from the United States, he called it aviators, salad. yeah. That name will come up in yet another version, but before we get to that, there is another man, Livy O Santini, who was eight teen when he worked for the cardenio in there to you on a restaurant, He claimed that the salad was won. His mother had made back in ITALY, and then he made it in the restaurant kitchen only to have it taken over and claimed by Caesar leaving Carnies Brother Alex said that he was the real inventor a story that has been debated in the family for years. According to the version Alex told, he made a salad for a bunch of air force. Pilots from Rockwell field who had fallen asleep in the restaurant after partying all night

the cardenio, let them donors and when they woke up Alex made them the aviator salad for Breakfast Alex's version may have been a variation on the original variation that included anchovies. That's, thing that Caesar was apparently against now we're going. Quote about that later, there are, even though a couple of variations we Miss version One is that, though, Alex Curdy me invented the dish the salad came to have Caesar's name, simply because it was his name on the rest another version that sometimes pops up is that Alex invented the salad when the two were running their first restaurant together and that he named it for his brother. But that is a little unclear. at the restaurant that he mentioned, which is called Alex and Caesar's. There's not really evidence that that really existed or if he was miss, remembering because

it appears that there was a time when Alex had his own restaurant called Alex's place that is based on advertisements in papers that that's confirmed and its possible that he considered that a joint venture, but in any case, Alex Gardini, eventually moved to Mexico City and open several restaurants of his own, and on and use there. It was called the Alex Cardenio Caesar Salad recent years, Alex's Gray about her Karla Gardini, has shared Alex's version with food groups, including the Tipp that it should include lime, juice not lemon juice, which is often attributed to a mistranslation. My way we're not bad, yet there is yet another claim fellows invention this wind of not originate in Cardenio restaurant at all, and it predates the Tijuana creation by decades. This version place the felons inception in Chicago totally different ways. At a restaurant carbon New York CAFE Emma Year, nineteen o three,

This version is another Italian who gets the credit, Giacomo Junior, who was a cook at the cafe, and he is said, to have named the recipe after Julius Caesar, but this version has appeared in print a number of times. The first example of those seems to be in a book titled, bull cook and authentic historical recipes and practices, which was self was in nineteen. Sixty by a man named George Leonard hurt her and heard her was quite a character in a variety of ways, but the latter sourcing. For most of his history, details means this version has a whole lot of question marks around it. It is entirely pie The ball by Jacques, about Junior is a fictional character that hurt or dreamed up heard her claimed that this person suppose you NEA had made the salad dressing out of ingredients than he had on hand because he was and make mayonnaise, but never pulled it off, and then he had then just made it into addressing and added croutons to please his french customers and bacon to. Please is german patron

I heard her also claimed that this was the only version worth making and that any other version of Caesar salad was quote fouled up one of the elements of a Caesar salad that comes up from time to time, and it's really not clear in which of these many innovations that originated as that yours was to eat it with your hands, the romaine Letteth isn't supposed to be chopped, the leaves are left intact, so each leaf can be picked up by the rigid base and then even without any utensils serving it. This way means that the preparation has to be done to really exacting standards with the leaves rolled in the dressing. Instead of tossed the way one would toss a chopped salad to ensure that the leaves are coated.

evenly because the ends need to be left clean. You could grab them with your hands. I kind of love this I'm kind of want to try it. I know I have seen plates of Caesar salad plated that way. It never occurred to me. You were supposed to pick it up with your hand. I always just cut cut cut now. I will know so coming up. Have we're gonna talk about how the Cesar salad spread and popularity, which probably country added to this ongoing conflict over who got credit, but first we are going to pause for a sponsor break. This episode of stuff. You missed in history classes, brought to you by Oxy clean MAX force. My spouse does most of the cooking,

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so, who initially thought up this salad? It quickly gained the following one cardenio, most famous custom I was U S: Army General Billy Mitchell, who is considered the father of the? U S air force and whose out spoke. Criticism of military leadership led to a widely publicized court martial in nineteen, twenty five in the early nineties, twenties Mitchell was state. That San Diego and was a regular Cardenas T want a restaurant and the general fell so in love with Caesar salad that when he traveled He would show chefs at the restaurants he visited, how it was made and that helped spread the dishes popularity

Cardenas later said quote when he had his big court martial, his wife told me he used to come home from the hearings and mix of Caesar salad for dinner. Julia child wrote about experiencing the Cesar salad at Caesar's place as a child. In her book from Julia Childs Kitchen quote. My parents, of course, ordered the salad Caesar himself rolled the big card up to the table, tossed the remain in a great wooden bowl, and I wish I could say I remembered his every move, but I don't The only thing I see again clearly is the eggs. I can see him break two eggs over that remain and roll them in the group. It's going all creamy as the eggs flowed over them two eggs and a salad to one minute: coddled eggs and garlic, flavoured crew times and grated parmesan cheese. It was a sensation of a salad from coast.

Coast in nineteen. Forty seven journalist and gossip columnist, Earl Wilson, wrote a piece about the popularity of the seas or salad in Hollywood, that was for a syndicated column, which appeared in papers across the. U S and he opened it with quote. I've long noticed that such Hollywood glamour purposes as Joan Crawford. Dorothy LE more Laana Turner and Betty Hutton Smell strongly and strangely of an here, your columnist blushes furiously of garlic, Wilson, actually discovered that the source of their garlic smell was the movie stars fondness for Caesar salad? But the truly interesting part of this right up is the paragraph in which Wilson gives the reader of to day some clues about how the dish was spread around the country and how it became so popular note in the quote, though, he got cardenio name wrong. He writes quote: I found it was invented by an Italian named Caesar Gardini and his seal on a restaurant

low, tasted there and brought it to Hollywood Caesar's Ex partner Peter forget Gary. I was now a captain. It Audrey's here where, of course you can get a wonderful caesar, salad, that column also evidences? How garlic was at this point, not the dietary staple for the? U S than it is today, and I think we ve all been on social media and see people make the joke Lake when the recipe calls for to close garlic, I put in six or whatever other Number not the case, as this whartons Wilson goes on, to tell the reader how to make a Caesar salad, He does this in a very joking way. There's a whole side story about how is kids, tennis ball got in it, and then he says quote: try it. What can you lose, but your stomach so

people out here say you can eat all that garlic and because of the climate absorb and never smell up the joint with it. That's what they say. I love garlic. Eighty to you, ve probably heard at some point that a true Caesar salad has anchovies or that it regionally had them, and we mentioned that Alex's version had them and they come up in an interview that Caesar Cardona gave in nineteen fifty six that article, which lichens Cardenio influence on food. In the? U S to that of Buddy Bolton's on jazz courts. Him saying quote: it's a wonder: my salad has survived at all what some chefs have done to it. They had an showbiz tomatoes, minced ham, even asparagus. Why do they want to spoil it going about the rift between Alex and Caesar and Alex's inclusion of anchovy pace? The seems like a dig on Caesar's

art against a sibling fairy publicly in nineteen. Fifty three, the international society of epicures, which is based in Paris named the Cesar salad, quote the best original dish to come out of the United States in the past fifty years since Caesar Cardenio became famous as a solid expert after being lauded by that international society, he was often asked for tips, great salads in the press and one that showed up repeatedly in newspapers in nineteen. Fifty six was that quote: Horseradish should be added to the dressing for every green salad to really tease the palate, use one half level teaspoon for every four servings and be sure to at a pinch of cinnamon. I'm ok with this horseradish suggestion within you the ones who had in my way, I literally when I read it, made the scooby- do confuse noise. I agree, but now

When I try it and see because maybe he knew baby, I have both. Those things from a French will see so by that Caesar Cardini had relocated to LOS Angeles. He had been selling his dressing by the bottle, initially from his small gourmet grocery store, which was Caesar Cardini foods and then buy a wider distribution. That dressing was trademarked in nineteen forty eight and he had left two restaurants behind in Tijuana. They continue to operate under his name, but they had new owners on November. Third, one thousand nine hundred and fifty six cardi B had asked and died. He was interred at Inglewood Park Cemetery. His brother Alex offered a reward after his brothers death to anyone who could prove him wrong that the salad was his invention and not Caesar's.

While this stoked an ongoing family feud and both sides feel that they know the real truth, it doesn't seem that this matter was ever definitively settled after Caesar's death. His daughter Rosa ran the family business until it was eventually sold. It continues today, you can still by Cardenas, stressing it grocery stores across the country and also from online retailers, and they did, while I was research. Agnes Delicious, As for the rest, her out Caesar's place, it still exists. It's in what was the second location, where it moved to a ninety twenty seven. There do you wanna. Although its life of service has not been continuous forever, it had over the years, become quite rundown and in two thousand and nine it actually closed. But now it is run by the Placencia group which acquired it in twenty ten and they remodeled it and dress it up and made it beautiful. And now it's a great like high and experience, and if you order a Caesar salad there, you will get the entire table side show of careful preparation,

and while the restaurant still touts itself as the home of the original Caesar salad, it now credits Caesar, Alex Am Livia. Santini, with its invention and July, fourth is now National Caesar Salad Day in the United States I feel like now. I will always have a seizure silent on that day. Not a difficult ask my book there now waving on. our second story, which is Graham crackers, which are today as sweet standard in many cupboards, it's the base on which we build small at a snack for toddlers. It is the star ingredient in some dessert ground.

But the origin of the Graham cracker was all about clean living and to get into that, we have to talk about Sylvester Gram. Sylvester gram was born July. Fifth, seventeen, ninety four and west, so Field Connecticut. He had six team siblings. Sixteen his father, he was seventy when his youngest child was born, died when Sylvester was only to his mother was left destitute with many of these children still young enough to be living at home. The pressure of this whole situation caused his mother to really have a breakdown. The court's determine turn a have quote a deranged state of mind. So, a year after his father's death,

Esther, who was still a toddler, started down a long series of foster living situations, sometimes with older, siblings and after working a number of jobs as a young man. Gram who is described as having been sort of odd and also you'll, see him described as weak body the in his youth started college, but not until your twenty nine. But that did not last. He too had some sort of mental breakdown, one semester into his education at Amherst, and that led the two significant events one. He decided to leave college and instead become a presbyterian minister and too he got married to one of the nurses who took care of him. That was a woman named Sera. Earl Graham preached about nutrition. Health in tandem with any discussion of religious matters, because he really believe they were all connected? And this was not enough

early unusual for the time, but Graham was definitely an extreme example. Although he was technically a minister, he did not have a congregation. He was really good at public speaking, so he gave lectures first on temperance, which was the cause he had long supported and then on wider health topics. He would use the idea of moral debasement as an example of how damaging behaviors like drinking and eating rich food could be always with plenty of anecdotal stories of people who had fallen from grace through indulgence. Graham published a book in eighteen, thirty, seven titled a treatise on bread and bread making, and it jumps right into the heart of the matter. Regarding the reverence beliefs in the opening lines with red quote, there are probably few people in civilized life who were the question put to them directly would not say that they consider bread one of the most, if not the most important, article of diet.

Enters into the food of man, and yet there is in reality, almost a total and universal carelessness about the character of bread. Thousands and civic life will for years. Perhaps as long as they live eat the most miss we'll trash that can be imagined in the form of bread and never seem to think that they can possibly have anything better nor even that it is an evil to eat such vile stuff as they do. He was also a proponent of what we would call a raw food diet. Today, Gram felt that food in general should be eaten in its natural state, as provided by God to achieve the best health he wrote quote. If man were to subsist wholly on uncooked food, he would never suffer from the improper temperature of his ailment hot substances taken into the mouth serve more directly and powerfully to destroy the teeth than any other cause which acts immediately upon them and hot

food and drink received into the stomach, always in some degree debilitate that organ and threw it every other organ in portion of the whole system, diminishing as an ultimate result. The vital power of every part impairing every function and increasing the susceptibility of the whole body to the action of disturbing causes and predisposing it to disease. Again. If man were to subsist entirely on food in a natural state, he would never suffer

from concentrated ailments again, not a doctor, but, as we mentioned just before, quoting these passages, all of these thoughts about food and eating raw were tied up with morality, not in the sense of today's very problematic associations of assigning foods, moral values usually associated with how it could impact your weight does its own whole problematic thing. But this was a different connection between food and morality, specifically, Sylvester Graham thought that people were just too full of lust and sin. Sexual urges and he thought that their diet were causing that problem grams, entire approach to eating and health and morality, Wade. Everything on a scale where things he perceived a simple were a he believed going to negatively harm a person's physical wellbeing just as much as their sole, and he thought that the fatty and meet heavy feared that

so common. In. U S, homes was over stimulating people in a way that manifested as sexual urges had a whole logic where he thought that meet raised a person's body temperature in such a way that it made them. Lustful reminds me a John Harvey Kellogg gap. They know it miss outline images and bless his art. I coming up we're gonna talk about what came to be known as the gram diet, those were grams guidelines for eating and good health, and they gotta be surprisingly pop the letter before we get to that. We are going to take a moment to hear from the sponsors they keep Steffy missed in history class, going outer space a vast, unknown frontier, to date. Scientists have explored about four percent of the visible universe, yet the other night

six per cent. Scientists cannot see. We don't yet new dangers that look beyond the stars but unfortunately for Captain Sidney Owens, engender Prescott the crew with the recent vessel mag mill there about to find out from Asia, radio and damper productions, Listen to MAC Mail on the eye, heart, radio lab apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast live here outside the Peres, family home, just waiting for that and there they go almost on time. This morning, mom is coming out the front door. Strong with a double arm could carry looks like dad. Has the bags daughter is bringing up the rear, but that diaper bad wasn't closed. Furs and toys are everywhere,

but mom is just nailed. The perfect car seat buckle for the toddler, and now the oldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in a booster seat dead since the bad, close and they're off but looks like mom Wiser coffee cup is still on the roof of the car and very goes that mug wasn't Pham, favorite, don't sweat the small stuff, just mail, the big stuff like making sure you kids correctly. The rights need for their agents, eyes, landlord in HD as aid. I go slash the rights. It is it's an h g. I say that, like the right see brought to you by NATO and the outcome Hey, what's up to man, Karlous Miller of the eighty five south show in to make sure you check out the black market posted by me. Only on the eighty five South show feed subscribe to the eighty five south show to hear tune into the black market, Here, Maison interviews with entrepreneurs created boldly,

People who, under an amazing thing in the world, community. into the black market heart radio apple pie case. Wherever you listen supply to achieve Hell of body and soul Graham outlined the ideal diet, and while it's definitely got some merit nutritionally at its roots, for example, he was very big plant based diet, but his system also does not sound very enjoyable, because, in addition to eating simple food with little preparation, you really were not allowed to season. Anything definitely knows definitely no pepper meet obviously was out, as was alcohol and, of course, no smoking. But do you like coffee t, too bad water, Oda, hypocrites metal, there's, no delightful beverages,

He would allow eggs, which is a whole weird thing, I'm not sure what his logic was there, but in addition to that strictness of what you could eat, he also had steep limits on how much of it you could eat, which was not very much he prescribe to meals a day and they should be on the small side. His inspiration for those diet. and eating the same way that he believes Adam and Eve would have eaten. He briefs that civilization had gotten humans away from the perfect nutrition of the garden of Eden. He wrote quote. We are informed also that the Romans more than two thousand years ago had four or five different kinds of bread, but at whatever period in the history of the race, this artificial process was commenced. Certain it is that indirect violation of the laws of constitution and relation which the creator has established in the nature of man, this press

of mechanical analysis is, at the present day, carried to the full extent of possibility. He wanted people ideally to grow their own wheats or barring, that define forces of quote the best new wheat that can be produced by proper tillage in a good soil. Then here they can wash and grind the wheat for their bread themselves. He believed this was a la healthier than anything could purchase the course wheat flour. He encourage people to make themselves became known as gram flower soon that a book about bread that Graham also manage to pick a fight with professional bakers rating quote in cities and large towns. Most people depend on public bakers for their bread, and I have no doubt that public yours as a body are, is honest and worthy a class of men as any in society? I have no wish to speak. evil of anyone, and it is always painful to me to find myself compelled infidelity

the common cause of humanity to expose the faults of any particular class of men when probably every a class of society, is deeply involved in errors which, in the sight of God, events at least an equal degree of moral turpitude, but like bakers, like other men who serve the public more for the sake of securing their own emolument than for the public. Good, have always had recourse to various expedients in order to increase the lucrative business of there business and Graham then goes on to explain how bakers have started to use additives in their flower to make bread, and some of them are dangerous. He also says that even bigger suit don't stretch their supplies with additional material. Are still using mediocre flower. He talked about this and speeches and sermons, as well as in print

do you can imagine how much bakers liked this that was not at all the baking profession got so tired of being bad mouth by Sylvester Gram that in eighteen thirty seven, a group of bakers and Boston protested, his lectures causing one Ben you to shut down the replacement men? You had to be boarded up to keep the mob out. His lectures regarding butchers were similarly damning in two occasions, butchers showed up to protest grams talks the year after a treatise on bread and bread, making Graham released a lecture to young men on chastity, which offers very detailed information on how the minister believed that a poor diet would lead to simple behaviour It is already pretty clear that Sylvester Graham, was not what you might call sex positive, but he makes that so abundantly clear in the preface of this book. Writing that quote,

he who in any manner endeavours to excite the central appetites and arouse the unchaste passions of youth, is one of the most heinous offenders against the welfare of mankind. The also speaks out in this published lecture against. Basically, any sexual activity, that's not conducted in an effort to produce offspring, even masturbation, which he refers to as self pollution and asserts, is a quote very great and rapidly increasing evil and our country even married couples should be careful because quote sexual access within the pale of wedlock is really a very considerable and at an inn increasing evil. Basically, any sex is evil, which is not a great attitude in addition to eating a very rigid diet, Graham also believed that salvation and longevity required that people forego alot of creature comforts. He preached that people should bathed frequently- which is great, of course, for hygiene,

but he also taught his followers that they should do that bathing only with cold water. It should never be warmed up because, again, remember. If you get warm you'll have bad thoughts. mattresses according to Sylvester Graham, should not be soften, cosy, There were more appealing aspects to his guidelines for healthy living, including that he didn't want people to get fresh air and move their bodies, and also he was a big fan of wearing comfortable close. Despite because more pleasant aspect, the lot of the sounds extreme even bizarre to the modern ear, but in the nineteenth century a lotta people really like to Graham was saying for one. The temperance movement was under way by the eighteen thirty's. There are an estimated six thousand local temperance societies in the? U S by eighteen. Thirty, three grand was affiliated for a time with the Pennsylvania society for discuss,

during the use of ardent spirits historian, Adam De Spritz, and makes the case in his book the vegetarian crusade that social movements, like abolition, which encourage people to avoid foods that were connected to slavery, had set the stage for people to think about food from a moral perspective. Additionally, cholera head claimed the lives of thousands of people in North America, leading people to fear anything that might spread disease include the food and drink that they can seemed eventually Graham had amassed such a following that grandma boarding houses were established that his followers could adhere to the principles of his teaching and sort of an easy organised way. Graham, really profit from any of these. They seem to be run for the most part by people who believed in his message. So Mr Graham did continue to tour, giving lectures and even started publishing his own periodical briefly, which was the Graham General for Health and Longevity Graham had emerged, isn't

early dietary reformer, one of the first people to create a model Health lifestyle that his followers embraced just of the concept of a meat? Abstaining lifestyle was really gaining traction in the? U S in the world. The word vegetarianism had started to become more common. Sylvester gram died on September, Eleventh eighteen, fifty one at the age of fifty seven death notices of his passing in the press were pretty minimal in part because, as relatively early death invited criticism of the very lifestyle he had helped to establish for food was so great. Why dies young with a man called our great just the same. The death did cause all manner of controversy, even though they tried to keep a low key and accounts began to spring up in papers about the last days of grams life. He had been sort of. real his whole life from the time he was a child when he was being sent from one foster situation to another physician.

Oh fatter, trawl, who had known Graham pointed out in one article that Graham had only become a vegetarian at the age of forty, so he could not have gained all the possible benefits from it that someone who gave up meat, earlier in their life might have trawl also disclose to readers. That grams Doktor had insisted that the end of the man's life that he eat some amount of meat to improve his circulation or that he would no longer treat him and, according to trawls, accounts of Esther Graham acquiesced, but immediately regretted having done so, we do not know if any of this account is true and thus bite. The controversy Grammy's continued to fall in his teachings. Well after his death than its in the second half of the nineteenth century. But the gram cracker emerged as a commercial product. The specific origin of the Graham Cracker is a little bit unclear Sometimes you will see Sylvester Graham himself, credited with inventing it. I actually saw several Nickel say that it was invented in eighteen, twenty nine and bound broke New Jersey by him

there's, not a lot in the way of substantiation for that specific date. The phrase Ram cracker does appear in various things, starting in the eighteenth thirties, but it's always unclear what exactly it means. It is also tireli possible, though, that this evolved as a food created by grandma. It's an attempt at making some sort of cracker with a gram flour to just sort of bill that need in their diets most accounts. You will see kind of cow the Graham crackers having been inspired by Sylvester, Graham and his food reforms, rather than invented by him, but we do know It is a region aided either with the man himself or with his followers, but that form of a baked kid would have been very different from the food that we call a gram cracker today for one. It would not

have been sweets. According to a nineteen eighty, nine article in the Washington Post quote the real Graham cracker was closer to a brand salteena without the salt that way to turn and missed out on taste We not a thing you would want to use to sandwich big chunk of chocolate in some toasted marshmallow. In the late eighty, nine bees, the National Biscuit Company, which would eventually become Nabiscos, started mass producing, Graham crackers, they weren't the first Did you ever? They were the first to really successfully launched as a product Benny, ninety thirty for their honey. Made Graham crackers were introduced and at that point, Annie truly tying them to Sylvester ideals was completely gone. Not only were they Mass produced at that point, but they were Sweden with molasses. That was something he would have abhorred. It is this that he's bet he would think small are fully demonic. I did, but I just can't imagine him not be

really really horrified by them yeah well, if it makes them feel any better from beyond the grave. When I was a child, my mom, you had a lot of very strong opinions about the the types and quality of food that her children should eat. Graham crackers, where one of the acceptable things and our household, where we did not have a refined sugar. So there's that I mean they're still better than a lot of sweet things. You could give a kid in terms of sugar content. Now I kind of one I look up and see if there are any lake old School, Graham Cracker recipes that I could try making and just see what sort of horrors

emerge from my of in them, making we're gonna, have a more fun listener. Mail about John Henry Pepper and his legacy is from our listener, Alex you re tallying Tracy. I just listen to your episode on John Henry Pepper and his ghost, and your descriptions of his demonstrations at the Royal Polytechnic institution reminded me strongly of a similar series of lectures. I went to his the kid. I grew up in Madison Wisconsin, where there's a large university and professor bizarre Shaka, sherry used to put on public chemistry demonstrations for audiences of all ages. My first grade teacher took me to see one of his Christmas lectures one time and it was a format it variance for me, pepper sounds he had a similar approach to science, education as Professor Shaka Shakhashiri. I ended up working in science education for many years as a biologist, the Exploratorium, a science museum in San Francisco that sounded like

the more modern version of peppers installation at the theater. I highly recommend a visit if you're ever in the area. Alex also suggests a topic that is, I don't know if it'll happen or not very sorry, its gate of interviews subject, but I really appreciate both the suggestion and this wonderful missive. Also thank you for being an educator Alex, scientists every. He would like to write to us. You can do so. You can do that at history, podcast, Iheart, radio, dot com. You can also find us on social media. As MR history, if you would like to subscribe to the show and have not done so yet it is super easy, you don't need a science educator to show you. You can do that very simply. In the I hurt radio, poor wherever it is. You listen to your favorite broadcasts, stuff. You must, in history class the production of a radio for more part,

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