« Stuff You Missed in History Class

William Moulton Marston & the Creation of Wonder Woman

2017-06-12 | 🔗

Most people know Wonder Woman as an embodiment of truth and justice, but don't know much about the comic's earlier years or its creator. Marston lived an unconventional life, and in many ways, Wonder Woman was an expression of that life.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://news.iheart.com/podcast-advertisers
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Here's the thing: saving money with Geico was almost better than playing pick up. Basketball is always that guy who joined your game, he never passes the rock. He instantly bricks theories and who can We have you and then put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with Geico its ease the switch and save on car insurance. No, need, fake, an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted, so which, in save with back it's almost better than sports will continue stuff. You missed in history class from Housetop works. Tat come mile and welcome to the pond can rightly be Wilson and I'm Hollingford to do this again last summer one man loaded, I might have been a lot of crime
you and I actually started working on this episode, but seeing wonder woman it even So if you like, we're may be a little late to this party today. What had happened. Doktor, William Molten Marston, who you may have seen his name in it of wonder woman, he actually created wonder woman. In addition to being a Harvard educated psychologist, he rode extensively about things like human emotions and consciousness. He also invented and popularized early version of the light, attacked or test and has just said one woman you may have even seen. You have seen wonder woman teaser for a forthcoming via about have met with apparently going to be called professor em. So if that peaked, your interest, we're gonna help out with that yeah I didn't get. I didn't get that review. I didn't know it exists it until other board. Talking about it on the internet. Isaac were so to return to the subject at hand for folks
who may be no wonder woman as an embodiment of truth and justice and don't have so much knowledge about the comics earlier here's or its creator the heads up we're about to give you might be a little surprising. There is going to be some sex talk today, Always it will not be graphic or explicit, but it will be there. I am the first. Approximately half of this episode is Bretagne, so if you think you might want to bail is perhaps younger list our listening, is well, then you'll still be able to get a sense of where something inspirations for wonder. Woman came from from the first half of the show, and also to be clear. This is not a history of wonder woman. We're not going and a ton of time talking about the early issues in the Mary Mary different origin story she has had, and all of that it is a lot
about that their Marston and how his life sort of became subsumed in this comic book character. There, Sir, William Molten Marston, was born in Massachusetts may, ninth of eighteen, ninety three and while we usually spend a bit of time talking about a person's early life, his adulthood is really what's connected to what we're talking about today. So this time around we're gonna skip most of that early, whose parents were etc and we're going right to nineteen eleven, which was his freshman year at Harvard and the only subject he really like that first year was philosophy and at that time a lot of people considered psychology to be a branch of philosophy. Marston, philosophy. Professor George Herbert Palmer, was outspoken in his view that women and men were equal. He was also the faculty sponsor for the Harvard Men League for woman suffrage, which had invited Emily Pink Hearst to speak on campus in November of nineteen eleven. That would have been the November
since first year of college. This was an event that would have a long, lasting influence on Marston Life and work. Pang cursed was the founder of Britain's women's social and political union, the nations most militant women's rights organization. It was pink Hearst's organization that reclaimed the derogatory Nick, suffragette. It were it with pride when other more moderate organizations preferred suffragists by the nineteen teens. The suffragists activism included breaking windows, vandalism and arson, with their subsequent arrests, infamously followed by hunger strikes in where's feedings. That is, of course, not at all. A thorough history have supper debts, but a big part of the movement and its iconography was the use of chains. This was really how opted from the earlier abolition movement, suffragettes free
that their movement of seeking a liberation from bondage and used images of chains and their pamphlets and other printed material. They also physically chain themselves defences and other barriers as part of their protests. One invited to Harvard in nineteen eleven tankers was banned from actually speaking on the Harvard Campus at that time. Harvard was an all male university and it did not allow women to speak on campus, the administration cited not to make an exception for bankers, even though it had made an exception for another woman in the same lecture series, provided the lecture was closed to anyone from off campus. According to the New York Times, tankers invitation caused an quote: almost unpressed
did stir the student body divided into some who supported tankers, invitation and Antis, who did not and petition circulated on both sides in the end, because she had been barred from speaking on campus. The event was held off it is with way more people trying to get into the lecture Hall than what actually fit students from both Harvard and from Radcliffe College, which was the women's college started out as Harvard Annex were all in audience and Marston was caught up in all of this, while at Harvard Marston studied under Hugo Minster Bird in Harvard experimental psychology lab monster, bird was a controversial figure. He was recruited from Germany specifically to head up the lab and he maintained loyalty to Germany, even in the years leading into world war. One, unlike most in psychology. Professor Mr Burg, was against both the feminist movement and the suffrage movement. He thought women should have access to education, but not
graduate studies which he thought they were not suited for Wednesday. Burger believed in psychological, parallel of them, or the idea that parallel processes are always going on in both the body and the mind they run parallel to your complement each other. He did a lot of work in applied psychology as well when he was conducting experiments on whether it was possible to detect deception through speech and heart rate, as well as skins hamper chair. While he did not all agree with Munster Bergs thoughts about women. Marston was fascinated with potential connections, but the mind and body and whether it was possible to use physical responses to detect deception around nineteen thirteen, his childhood sweetheart safety, Elizabeth Holloway, who he had known since eighth grade, told him that she noticed her blood She rose when she was upset, always observation and monster. Bergs prior work became the found
Fourthly, Marston Deception, TEST Alai, detector that predicted whether someone was being truthful based on their systolic blood pressure and his first experiment with it. He stories actually written by Holloway that described a fictitious crime that a friend had committed participants, to give Mark court testimony about their friend either by lying, are telling the truth, a mock jury. offered. An opinion on whether this subject was being truthful. Which that result with compared to the blood pressure. Reading the lie. Detector was right. Ninety six percent of the time while Mark Jerry was only write about half the time. Marston got his bachelors degree from Harvard in nineteen fifteen and that September he in Holloway, who graduated from Mount Holyoke that year were married. Although she took his last name. She didn't particularly
want to you- and she also did not want to be called Betty, which Marston insisted on calling her or calling her Holloway in this episode. For those reasons, as well as for clarity here, this episode would get really confusing if we call them both Marston over this strenuous objections. Her father when Marston went on to pursue a large degree from Harvard Holloway did the same thing from Boffin University. She performed a lot better than heated academically and they both graduated at nineteen eighteen wily the law school Marston kept up with his research into deception, offering up the use of his lie: detector and criminal vacations and unsuccessfully, to the FBI, the Office of Military intelligence and the departments of war and justice. Among many others. Here is really a proponent for his lie: detector,
Nineteen, eighteen. During the: U S: involvement in World WAR, one Marston became a second lieutenant than he served at the. U S: Army School of military psychology. After the end of the war, he returned a school again earning a phd in psychology from Harvard in nineteen twenty one. His phd dissertation was systolic blood pressure, symptoms of deception and constituent mental states, Holloway mirrored his classes at Radcliffe, although graduate degrees were not conferred, two women either We, the Rackliff, worked at that time was that it was basically for women and was taught with essentially identical lecturers and all from Harvard Faculty, but the women were really considered to be Harvard students exactly and in this case the advance, work,
he was doing, did not result in her getting a phd along with him. You can do all the work that you don't get the title, but see said something very similar to that and from there Marston entered academia, but how away? In spite of her degrees, which she did have before this whole Radcliffe course of study and her excellent academic performance had trouble finding a job, she did consent continued to assist him with his research career gonna talk about similar after a quick sponsor break Hey baby, I thought you were leasing upon today sounds like you're at football yeah. Why use Ronaldo ease the car? You know it's up. I was telling you about. We can choose from hundreds of local cars right from your phone, ok and the price is Crystal clear, all taxes and duties are included discussed. Negotiated then deliver the car to your house.
watching the game. While I pick a car, so let me get this straight the Roadmap car. was so easy. You figured catch football game yeah see you understand, they gotta go its fourth down and anticipating between Sudan or hatch back. I welcome to the future of cohesion on the road where you can choose from hundreds of cars right in your area. We did you Crystal clear pricing that includes discounts. Taxes in fees. Woolly then drive your car to your house. It's easy! It's clear its roto after finishing his phd in psychology. Wm Hamilton
and took a job as a professor at American University in Washington D C, where he was the chair of the Psychology Department, the pretty prestigious positions get in your first job after grad, school or hallways part. She found a job researching answers to readers, questions for a syndicated newspaper, column, Marston, also, tempted to have the lie. Detector evidence introduced into the murder trial of James Alfonso fry during it.
Irrigation fry had confessed, but later he said that he had been pressured into doing so. Martians aim was to use his lie: detector, to prove that fries original confession had been false to of Marston. Students were also fries legal counsel, and they didn't put much effort into his case planning to rest. It all on Martians expert testimony that the judge would not allow Marston testimony and fry was convicted, for I really got the worst of this deal, because a series of appeals were focus pretty much exclusively on this whole, why detector testimony and they lead to fry verses, United States, which was heard in the Deasey circuit?
this case established what became known as the fry standard. Basically, the idea that for scientific evidence to be introduced in cork, it had to rely on generally accepted concepts in the relevant field. It could not, for example, rely on something that was unproven or something that was considered to be a fringe belief like Marston lie. Detector was the fry standards stayed on the books for a long time it still in use in some states. Although at this point it's mostly been replaced by other laws, Martians job at American University was short lived after a completely different business enterprise we haven't even gotten into here, failed his business associates in that enterprise accused him of fraud, case, never came to trial, but the suspicion around it was enough to cause Marston his job and nineteen twenty five. He started, working in fact followed up
minute, Tufts, University and Medford Massachusetts, which is where he met olive burn she had been born In February, nineteen o four delivered by her mother sister, Margaret Sanger finger and olives. Mother Ethel had started the United States first, contraceptive clinic together in nineteen sixty than it was the foundation for what would become planned parenthood. When Ethel Burne was arrested for running with clinic he went on a hunger strike that was really threatening her life and Sanger. Without her consent negotiate a deal with the governor that she would be pardoned if she'd never participated in the birth control movement again solve that happened after olive burns birth. But before she started attending tough and burn was a student at Jackson. Women's college Tufts University Marston was her professor and experimental psychology Safety Elizabeth,
the way had not moved to Massachusetts with him. She had taken a job as a managing editor of Psychology Journal in New York. At this point, Marston have largely stopped his study of law. The failure of fry verses, United States really seem to put a damper on his enthusiasm for that and he had stopped focusing on a psycho physiology of emotions or the connection, between the mind and the responses in the body as they related to emotions He and many others in the field of psychology in the nineteen twenties was extremely interested in studying sex as well and in studying sex dick and says between men and women, and this is where today's episode is going to turn into more adult territory, so in particular Mars
was very interested in bondage, dominance and submission, he proposed a study in which they could examine how women responded to being tied up and how other women women would respond to striking the ones who were bound to that end burn took him to a sorority hazing who all in which freshmen pledges dress like babies and were led blindfolded with their hands bound, while upper classmen ordered them around and sophomore sorority sisters hit them with sticks, and then they interviewed participants who reported quote, excited pleasantness Marston Unburned became involved sometime in nineteen twenty five and he introduced her to his wife on Burns graduation Day and nineteen, twenty six Sometime around then is also win. Marston left Tufts entirely possible that he was asked to leave based on
we think we have to set in the last few sentences soon after Marston told Holloway that he wanted burn to move in with them and that if she didn't allow it, he would leave her articles about whether women can quote have it all with all meaning. Both children and a career may seem like a recent phenomenon, but they were already being written in nineteen. Twenty six in Holloway had found herself caught in that question. She wanted children, but she had always long before marrying Marston been ambitious and career oriented, so she came to the decision that was at the time, pretty unconventional illegal and would have been completely scandalous if any one had found out about it. Burn could live with them if she raised the children and that would leave how way free to focus on her career, they made up a cover story. That Burne was a relative who had been previously Mary, but her husband had died. The two children
burn had with Marston were really according to their cover story, her late husband, children and not martens. I have so many timeline questions about how that works like that works for one baby, the weird the second baby wait. A minute are already had a child from the disease has been anyway hallway and burn. Each had two children with Marston between nineteen twenty, eight in nineteen, thirty three and they didn't even tell burns children who their father was until much much later in their lives burn, had hoped to get a phd and got as far as a masters before dropping out of school. To take care of the first of these four children which Holloway gave birth to in nineteen twenty eight, while working at Encyclopaedia Britannica an staying at her job as long as possible before delivering so is not really typical or middle class.
Women him. When he's all Marston career really started to flounder Emily. Nineteen twenty is an end to the nineteen thirty. He had been fired as the chair psychology department at American University, and then he either quit or was asked to leave his assistant professorship at Tufts. He then became lecturer at Columbia. After that, a math really the opposite of the trajectory that a career and academia is supposed to follow. He was really stir going to make his way in the world of academic psychology. After all, his experimental work he developed and published a number of theories about human emotions and physical responses to them. if theorize that psychology and neurology had complimentary counterparts, we're neurology
had neurons or nerve cells. Psychology had the theoretical structure of seconds. The brain could be explained through neurons in the mind could be explained through Psych HANS. He asked proposed a new framework to understand human emotions. Rather, than emotions, like fear, anger he proposed or Mary and most no responses which were dominance, compliance submission and inducement. He published two books exploring his theoretical framework there was emotions of normal people which came out in nineteen, twenty, eight and integrative psychology, a study of unit response which came out in nineteen thirty one. This answer play between die. Finance and submission on their pay and a lot of these theories and emotions of normal people also had a lot in it. That was devoted to reassuring people that taboo sexual proclivities, really completely normal, although he often
included, Berne and fall away in his acknowledgement for his thanks than his books. In some cases, one or both of them have come closer to her writing the black, but wasn't with that as an author and he kept using his lie: detector not so much to test deception anymore, but to study emotional responses in nineteen twenty eight. He used to study the question of whether women with different hair color had different emotional responses. I dont know why, that's so much, but I sure do it's, because it's how Larry S very very funny. A second series of tests examined what provoked an emotional response with the subjects watching movies, while hooked up to the machine. The conclusion, according to the New York Times, was quote that brunettes enjoyed the thrill of pursuit while blondes preferred the more passive
treatment of being kissed. His proudly soundly specious and also pretty funny. But it did wind up leading to more work in the field of pop psychology which we're gonna talk about. After another click sponsor break party you're my whole data LISA car from the whole day, yeah first we need to study. I have some flashcards here that old, releasing a vocabulary, seclusion costs, money factors, disposition, faith, You do not need to know all this to a car, but I gotta negotiate a good deal. Caroline Yes, it's the roadmap. You go through and take the car. You want and they give your Taylor prices Crystal clear. They ve already applied this. HANS, negotiated, a low rate and included all taxes and pleased, then they deliver
your house both. But what about the acquisition? Yes, ryan them to? Do you even know what an acquisition VIII is? No, but I think it's on the next card there welcome to the future of car leasing with the road a lap you can choose from hundreds of cars writing your area. We give you crystal clear pricing that includes discounts, taxes in fees and once you decide what cartilage will even drive it right to your house, it's easy. It's clear! Its road out. In nineteen, twenty eight universal studios posted in advertisements that they were seeking a psychologist to help them figure out how audiences would respond to their movies and that fight colleges were not being William Old Marston. He was hired as the director of the studios. Public Service Bureau am once again. The stop did not last very long. The passage of the haze code, which prohibited quote immoral content and films, shifted the types of films the industry could make and then,
Frequently, what kind of responses they needed to measure they also found a more sophisticated lie: detector, the polygraph, which was developed by John Larsson, an Leonard killer, Anti devoted to use that, to evaluate Thomsen, said after the worst and tried to co founder production company called equitable pictures with the goal of making feminist films any have actually made a film before in his undergraduate days. That was how he made enough money to buy holidays engagement ring. However, equitable pictures folded just before the start of the great depression in nineteen twenty nine career exactly been stable. Up to this point and Marston wound up without steady, for a lot of the nineteen. Thirty is, for the most part, Holloway really supported the whole family. Although much about there
Family was still a secret. Some people in academia had figured out something was going on in Martians household that was not invention all about for some others. Academic prospects. another woman named Marjorie, will certainly also lived with them on and off. Through these decades, Marston wrote a book called the lie, detector test which came out in nineteen thirty eight- and this was another case in which Burne was essentially a co writer to promote his book. He started doing publicity stunts. There was a love detector in which Pretty Ladys were kiss hooked up to it in nineteen, thirty nine he did a Gillette Razor blade. Add in which people shaved with Gillette blades and then other blades and then answered questions about the experience while they were hooked up to the detector. Are the results of this were apparently padded and,
second larger study was conducted under the Supervision of Detroit Police. In that study, the results came down. Fifty fifty in terms of Gillette verses, other blades and then Marston, allegedly bribed someone to say it was a hundred percent in favour of a wet person declined to do an FBI. Memo about this whole deal include they have written note on it that fair quote. I always thought this fellow Marston was only- and this proves that the reason that there was an F
I memo about it at all, was the Martians publisher had sent a copy of the Wye detector tested J Edgar Hoover when it was published, hoping for an endorsement? Instead, the F B, I started a file, and the FBI's assessment of the book was that it was quote extremely egotistical and mostly seem to exist, to establish the fact that Marston had invented the lie. Detector. The memo concludes by summarizing the books. Conjecture that having a deception pointed out will cause the subject to admit his falsehood, then always tell the truth in the future, which quote eggs levice the same egotist tickle, ridiculous stream in which the book was written. Nevertheless, all this publicity landed Marston a lot of other pops. I college gigs. He had articles published a cosmic policy in good health being a squire and Ladys Home Journal. He wrote inspirational psychology himself how books with names like you,
be popular and march on bathing wife with courage. He also wrote about women how, in his you, women were largely superior to men. even interview with the New York Times in nineteen. Thirty, seven in which he said the United States was within a century of quote the beginning of a sort of amazonian matriarch IE and in five hundred years the nation would see a quote definite battle for sex supremacy and in a thousand years he believe women would rule the nation both politically and economically? Meanwhile, olive burn had gotten a job writing for family Circle magazine in her article. She would visit in airports Fame psychologist, their William Hamilton Marston, who she pretended No only in a professional capacity having in fact at him. In order to interview him for one of these articles, she would seek out his professional opinion on it.
behavior like, for example, what to do about a child who was lying. All the time and in one of these articles the question was along. The lines of I've heard, comic books might be dangerous for children are they that was not with some up of the article is ok, I've ever stop. Giggling comic books at this point had a terrible reputation. Although the United States hadn't yet become involved, were war too was underway and storylines were becoming increasingly violent. The Chicago Daily NEWS called comics quote sex horror, cereals, super man had just they viewed in nineteen, thirty, eight and Batman in nineteen, thirty nine and they weren't. Exactly being
written as wholesome role. Models, Superman came off as a fascist and bad man was shooting people. So, in her guise of a concerned, parent olive burn visited AMOS psychologist, William Marston, to ask if comic books were harmful and his position was that they were, for the most part, just harmless wish. film it people read them because they knew that the heroin was going to be rescued by the hero. At the last moment, she wasn't in any
danger. But in most cases no harm came to her on the page. So his opinion, like people are even being taught to enjoy violence because they were always saved from the violence. This article caught the attention of Maxwell Charles gains of detective comics, later known, of course, as DC comics. He hired Marston in nineteen forty because he wanted Marston help defending him from critics and turning comics reputation around and Morrison's assessment. The route problem of comic books was their quote: blood curdling masculinity quote the obvious remedy he wrote was quote to create a feminine character with all the strength of a super man, plus all the lure of a good and beautiful woman Marston wanted to ride, a role model for girls and to introduce boys to a feminist here
and at one point he said quote frankly, wonder woman is psychological propaganda for the type of woman who, I believe should rule the World Games agreed to publish such a comic. If Marston wrote it, he turned on his first draft, originally titled supremacy the wonder woman in nineteen forty one Here's, where wonder, woman became a synthesis of all these. They live inside you out for this entire episode. We talked at the top of the show about how the suffragists abused metaphors and the pictures of chains and bondage picked up, as we said from the Abolition movement that same idea in those same images were picked up by the greater feminist movement as well Marston an advocate for both of these movements, but that same imagery and for wonder woman. According to his writing. Wonder woman were chamber by a man. She would lose her power, actually why's that
Overwhelming number of the early comics chained up by men He also had a golden last, so that would compel people to tell the truth, like the lie detector that Marston have spent. So much of his career tried to convince people with genuine, and they came from an island inhabited only by women did in many ways is superior to man and was framed away. There was explicitly feminist at other aspect, came from merchants, personal life, wonder women's wide bracelet. We're pattern after those warned by all of burn instead of a wedding ring, and there are lot of moments in Martians wonder woman stories they clearly parallel his life. Like a lot a lot, a villain named doktor psycho, was probably inspired by Hugo Munster Bird, the gates at holiday college. Look a lot like the gates at Harvard check out Jill, deplores the secret history of wonder woman. If that sounds interesting, because there is a lot more to delving,
there. That is not really part of this. So might she look often has a lot more of the history of Wonder woman's various incarnations that were not really gonna get into a really good book. I read it as part of the research for the show, enjoyed it thoroughly, written Marston Undrawn by Hd Peter Wonder woman. They viewed in all star comics number, eight in the fall of nineteen forty one and she was immediately immensely popular with fails of her titles, topping half a million copies by the third issue. She also drew a lot of comments see you really wasn't wearing a lot of clothes and she got tied up a lot just at Frank of the Child Study Association, called it full of sex antagonisms and perversions to which Marston replied quote. Frankly, I dont know what she means. Probably my basic idea of women fighting male dominance, cruelty savagery and were making with love control back by
Worse is what she means by sex antagonisms, but whatever Marsden denials, their so called sex antagonisms and versions were really obvious in the minds of some of the critics has wonder: woman was from an island populated only by women and because of the way those women sometimes interacted with each other. People allege that the comic was promoting lesbianism, which at the time was widely considered too immoral and also in most places was illegal. An infantry soldier wrote to Marston and nineteen forty three, basically spelling out that he person He was into sexual bondage and wondering if Marston was too because of how he was depicting wonder. Woman is a complicated question. We cannot answer Koper, this plaid gas,
Because the only people to ask for their children and honestly, how much do most children know about their parent sexual behaviour,
regardless, though, a meeting that followed, but through a decision to cut down the depictions of wonder woman tied up by between fifty and seventy five percent, Marston did not agree with the criticism that wonder: woman was promoting sexual bondage or torture. In his words quote, wonder woman breaks the bonds of those who are slaves to evil masters, but she doesn't leave the freed ones free to assert their own egos in uncontrolled self gratification. Wonder woman binds the victims again in love chains. That is, she makes them submit to a loving superior, a beneficence, mistress or master, who in every case represents God or Goodness or Aphrodite. Goddess of love and beauty. Freedom usually goes through a stage as in progressive education, where it becomes detrimental through lack of discipline. Side note that bondage and torture are definitely not
anything. But a lot of the criticisms of wonder woman inflated that altogether, at first day it was kept secret that fame, psychologist WM, Hamilton Marston was writing wonder woman. The first issues were published under the name Charles Molten. Instead, but all american comics issued a press release in the sun of nineteen forty, two announcing that he was the creator and author has Polly amorous home life and the fact that our burn. Fatty Holloway had both contributed to wonder woman in a meaningful way were kept secret. As examples we already talked about burns bracelets is the inspiration for wonder woman's risks, Holloway who had studied Greek in college and was a huge admirer of Sappho supplied advice on how wonder woman's entered,
since shouldn't be along the lines of balkan error, we should be more about women like suffering Sappho, wonder woman was nationalists indicated in newspapers in nineteen. Forty four Marston died on May second, nineteen. forty seven at the age of fifty three of cancer Holloway advocated for her following him as one or women's writer. Instead, Robert Canada are followed, and he made wonder woman and being a superhero into a model movie. Star be sitter. He also replaced wonder women of history, which was a fee that had been part of wonder, woman comics that talked about, as the name suggests.
amazing women from a historical past. He replaced that future with one that was about weddings. Since your introduction and ninety forty one wonder, woman has become one of the longest running comic book characters in history. She is essentially the only female character from the early days of mass produced comics to survive until the present and she's become an icon, both as a care. And as a feminist symbol, the feminist publication. Ms magazine put wonder woman on the cover for its first regular issue. Technically there was a preview issue with a different cover that came out in the spring of nineteen seventy two and that first, issue with wonder. Woman came out in July the cover wonder woman for president and peace and justice and seventy two one. It was also the U n honorary ambassador for the empowerment of women and girls in a controversial move that lasted for two months and twenty sixteen olive burn
in nineteen. Ninety Elizabeth Holloway Marston dated nineteen eighty three. They had continued to live together for forty three years after immersed. death paid me or one of the most interesting pieces of this whole story, because, where Marston, came the Holloway and was like hey there is an argument. You under the state there's an ultimatum in which my students is gonna, move in with us that, like that's, definitely presented as an ultimatum and most people who described the situation like describe it is something that was definitely like. You're gonna do this or I'm gonna leave Ah most folks, I know and Polly every community would not agree with that. Help me way: radio Approach, a relationship. but they really like after he died, they continued to be together
essentially, until one of them's. Last year's like there was a desperate situation with the two of them, as well as with the two of them with him involved in the triangle which to me is really interesting. Yeah I feel egg. It would be great if one day we get some secret journal that one of them had kept where we really, a more in depth of how their whole dynamic amongst the three of them were founded in that way. That is not ideal. Normally I like. How did it kind of progress to the point that that they did want to stay together for another forty three years without him, yeah well, Jill a poor when she was researching her back on secret history of wonder woman. She entered she interviewed there through. He surviving children and the spouse of the fourth of their children. She talked to all of them and she got access to all these family papers and there was there was a lot of really candid discussion, but there were also like sums
but the kids will I get. We did not really, we didn't know that, but he was our father until way later, it said likeness to theirs a lot of stuff. It will probably always be unanswered, some of which, because like how much do we really need to know about what they were in Russia and some of it you know ye come of. It still continues to be fascinating. Yeah when I say that Please, no I'm not looking for, like a cd All I'm really curious about the psychology of how the three of them again having founded this relationship on an ultimatum. here that evolved into something that was clearly much more than that and not dead seemed it. I'm gonna again we're not in it, so we don't know but seemed like it must have been healthy for some degree so well. Tat in Turin and Holloway both were very unconventional for women in their time like this had way more education than women, typically dead, awhile,
always focus like she really was focused on literature and law. And she was really aims, are being educated in pursuing a career, and you know in their class that, like that, was not really common, yeah and then with olive burn. A lot of like her gender presentation in college was there free and rottenness than she was really interested in pursuing a ph d like they both were outside of the norm for women a lot, so I think all of them really interesting, have people and as examples of liked relationship, it was not within the norms of society like in some circles. It would still be scandalous today, but at the time was, have been really scandalously earlier, ending for all three of them.
If some career ending listener mail, I hope not before we get into listener mail. I just wanted to really quickly. How are you are? You are doing alive, so emphatically falls yeah, Dewie sixteenth, which is a Sunday at an event called convention base, You can find more information about that on our website and we ve been talking about on our social media. I don't want it to be a surprise It was known that we will be out there. We are looking forward to it through again. That's a July, sixteenth. Twenty seventeen and Seneca falls New York survey, pretty time of year out in the finger lakes and I do have some listener. Male, I'm approaching our listener mail a little bit differently today in our Ladys of bank often episode are. We talked about the idea Boston, marriage and how I had not been able. figure out exactly win. That term came into use yet and we got email,
Rebecca Elisa in court me about both the marriage. So thank you all three of you for sending email about the marriage I wanted to you both fi what my question was and also answer it, which I really excited about. We will a deep rabbit whole about boss, the marriage when researching that episode, I was already familiar with the term boss. The marriage is that it was used to describe The women having your release, but a relation I'm using that in its broad sense, I get it's. It's entirely likely that in some cases these were like romantic partnerships, but in some cases they were more like practical roommate situations, but there are women making life together in a way that was in public people, knew about it and didn't you didn't have a male partner which at the time was not particularly typical. What we,
is totally unclear to me, was when people actually started using the term, because, according to Miriam Webster, its first uses the nineteen eighty and who I was yet, if not in Oxford, English dictionary, which was my go to your location, to find out when words in English arrived Ray, Oh in their time leading at sea that episode, I was not able to figure out whether this was a term that was in use at the time that its use to describe or whether it was like a model word that was coined away more recently. I have now answered that question in the first known use of term, Boston, marriage and writing was published in a letter the editor of the open court, which was a journal printed in Chicago. This is printed on January, fifth of eighteen, ninety three and it was by Edna detainee,
and she was riding in response to a legal dust up and wit, two women have had made a home together at one of the women's father was trying to pursue legal action over it and she wrote. This seems very strange. to one who, for many years, has been accustomed to the existence of ties between women, so intimate and persistent that they are fully recognised by their friends and of late have acquired, if not a lot, we'll at least the name, for they have been christened Boston marriages. This institution deserves three record as a really valuable one for women and our present state of civilization, with the great were of women in our state that in excess of the men and with the present independence of women, which
There's marriage merely for a home no longer acceptable that proportion of theirs who can enter into that relation is diminished and the glory of spelling of old maids must find sub substitute for the joys of famine. life. These relations. So far as I have known- and I have known, many of them are not usually play for convenience or economy, but out of a constantly increasing attachment favoured by circumstances which make such a marriage the best refuge against these solitude, growing aids and then later on. In her letter she says I do not propose that we should formally adopt the boss, the marriage into our civil code and celebrate it with ceremonies and festivities for simplicity and privacy especially become it. But I do think it is good to think of it with respect and well It is one of the helps to human welfare and not let any jealous feelings mar the happiness of those concerned in it, so that not
from nineteen eighty at all was printed in eighteen. Ninety, three, I'm glad to know that now. You have no idea why Miriam Webster thinks that is the such such a more recent word than it actually is thanks to the folks who wrote in with various different tidbits about fostered marriage. If you would like to write to us, we are a history. Podcast at Helstone works, dot com were also on Facebook at Facebook, dot com, Flash Miss than history in Antwerp, Miss than history. Our tumblr is most in history, that tumblr dot com, or also on Pinterest, that painters, dot, com, flash mist and history and also Instagram, missed in history. You can come to our parent companies website at how stuff works, dot com. You will find all kinds, information including some stuff about wonder woman, and you can come to Ireland I would have missed in history, dot com, you will find, show notes or episodes of absence Ali, and I have done together
Joe notes are now on the same page as the pod hast player for pretty much everything. That's not after the late January of twenty seventeen. Old ones are on their own separate age and wheels up an archive of every episode. Ever it is suitable. can do all that and a whole lot more and has the words that bomber miss than history for more on this, and thousands of other topics visit has therefore exactly how low bunnies this is. Our marine. You may know me from Chelsea lately or as Regina Sinclair on insatiable. I want to tell you about my comedy podcast: will you accept this rose, which is new to the eye heart radio, podcast network? we re cap every season, the bachelor franchise, including the bachelor, the bachelor at an bachelor in Paradise. We bring in bachelor super
and including last bass, Nicky Glaser, Debbie, Ryan and more catch. Our first episode on January eighth and listen to will you accept this rose on the icon, radio, app apple podcast or wherever you get your barred?