In this episode, Josh and Chuck discuss the controversial "ghost prisons," covert prisons created by the CIA after September 11th, 2001 to secretly detain and interrogate terrorist suspects in various locations around the world, including the U.S.
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The third step you should know was brought to buy, go to meeting. We all have to me, but the apple. Cost of a single business trip is one thousand dollars with just one click. It can save time money and have your meetings online with affordable and easy to use. Go to meeting you go to me four cells, presentations, product demos, training sessions, collaborating on documents and more Forty nine dollars per month for unlimited meetings. It saves time money and travel. Try go to meeting free for thirty days visit to meeting dotcom, slash stuff, that's go to meeting dot com, slash stuff, welcome to the park cast on Josh Clark across this vast gulf of a table brand new view of sea heavy studio. Yeah is Charles, W Chuck Brian wherein people this is our brand new studio. This is our first time recording and now it's we gotta get used to this weirdness all over again things. This can't be
Often there is an hour and we are chairs in the table as huge and Jerry. I can't talk about Jerry not even in the room with this any more weight, Chuck Dejesus, pronounce huge with the out the h with the age being signed, You say you have been saying human being in huge. Ever since I came back from New York. Viewed at you, Hugh Saint Jerry, isn't even in our vision line of vision, and I hate that yeah. It's odd things are others like a burlap, Kurt I'm way headphones made out of old or a let's get this go, and I are enough griping from Sino seriously. Nobody cares there's a head like a great intro to this one letter, but I can't remember: oh yes, Chuck in other there's a lot of finger, pointing about how nine eleven was allowed to happen
There has been ok but authors anymore, but at first there's a lot of you're. Putting a lot of that fund clean, oh yeah, sure, because you know bushes, pretty knew he was. He was a newbie still right as far as President's GO and Clayton had been president for two terms: payment on them, this guy, it's american tradition, it really is, but the thing is Clinton's, The situation Clayton CIA, had asked the long list of high valued targets of people in the AL network? Before then, the September eleven tax ever happened and there is a lot of talk about what to do with this list of people right arm after September eleventh. You know, say eleven, a m on September, eleventh the talk started about what to do with this list, as it became clear that this is our cater right that had carried out this. This heinous attack right
in one of the things that we did with it was to publish a deck of cards. I had that DEC Really you in front of my gimme that deck yes. Do you remember that you could get em like it to me stores and Yasser american public beyond the look out for these guys and also enjoy some. You know, Texas hold them well. Well, in my mind, is cameo on the other side, Israel, yet shuts appropriate, but so there is a lot to talk about what to do with this list of people had their names in a lot of cases. We knew where they were and one of the one of the ideas that was suggested was to start assassinating, all of them and no one was it. I think poem fairly well entertain, but the CIA had been as far as we know, out of practice with assassinations for awhile he should have
So, instead we decided to start stepping up a program called extraordinary rendition right, which would be great man name soon, as I heard it you, you think everything's a great man named everyone. Everyone thinks everything's a guy named, but not me, came out here is the question of the guy remained, has been ill cheaper. Such rights given was the other one, a designer career, there's another band name recently that you light our donor, well anyway, this extraordinary rendition programme actually dated back to the Bush senior presidency right. In January, in eighteen. Ninety two George Herbert Walker Bush now signed a presidential finding authorizing extraordinary rendition, which basically is kidnapping yet a finding it which it tastes were like an executive order right, twenty things at present. It can do so,
make it happen, but it's pretty much a secret executive order. Right, I mean, like its existence, can be made public by its contents are right and actually the executive order that Bush Senior signed. Allow knowing your authorizing extraordinary rendition, is still classified right, yeah, but What we know is that it was used a couple of in times a largely in the Clinton era and for the most part it was used. Go in the countries that harboured terrorists, kidnap the terrorists and then bring them to american courts for trial yet or other places, well that that kind of stepped up after two thousand one Raffer effort, Bush Junior came into power. The CIA stopped, I guess, cunning wanting to put their faith in american courts right and risk that coin toss of of an american jury church going in, river terrorist rats and asserted using extraordinary rendition to third party nations.
So now, not only are we kidnapping foreign nationals or kidnapping foreign nationals and taking them to other countries that they don't have an affiliation with you so that we can basically outsource torture and Terry Basically means you can't you don't have a lot of contact with the outside world as in none right. You dont have rights to Habeas corpus. You can call your attorney. A condition you wanna hear if you're detainee, because it basically me, You can't you don't have a lot of contact with the outside world as in none right. You dont have rights to Habeas corpus. You can't call you journey and say you know, get me out here on bail. That kind of thing it's very secret, you're abducted. I think one of the stock receive us. It was a guy that they set up ass, a fake fundraiser and invited the sky, yeah in order to capture him yeah after after nine eleven like the world stage turned into like this plot exe position montage from a mission, impossible, move, right or simpsons sure yeah people just started disappearing.
Yep remote and by the very socio earth, the very arm GEO political definition of disappearing. It was they were kidnapped by government entity and kept out of the purview of the courts and stripped of any kind of rights right right, So the problem is we went from using a couple of extraordinary rendition and a couple, a dozen people, throughout the entire nineties, right too by the New York Times estimate. These three hundred and seven between late, two thousand one in two thousand five probably very, very low number right. So we from a couple a dozen in a decade to three hundred and seven and more in about four years, and we don t exactly know where to put these but the sea I didn't want to bring him to the. U S, because I didn't want him to be prosecuted. American courts rightly wanted these
but to lose all their rights and to disappear so that they can be kept for his law. The CIA wanted them right they found out what they needed, so what they did was set up as a network of secret prisons right ghost prisons as circle, yes and their known as prisoners date, and they are the ipod here. If I make human rights watch, you ve ever that group there were list on the internet about a list of goes prisoner, suspect because prisoners- and it's very long and the CIA is always like. We don't come in on that gonna thing, because those lister probably not accurate right that they they told the company liner right cause is he I couldn't say yeah that listed really accurate- and we do this at the c I a firm years and years and years after the their cover was blown, would never acknowledged that there were secret prisons Well, yeah, but Guida beheaded,
clean and what oh? Six in Atlanta, I wasn't no. I was sunny produced in an effort to improve yeah. We acknowledge the existence of secret prisons, probably after seeing W right, it was probably just like a snafu or didn't, I didn't mean to say he was finally tricked into admitting it, but he God damn it came out at that. Yes, these these do exist, but but we don't use them any longer, and then, in January, two thousand and nine Obama? First thing he does is shuts down the CIA secret prison network juniors after they started seeing it apparently, while those on a second full day in office. He did that, but pro publicly you further than to write they they say that there are dozens of ghosts. Prisoners still unaccounted for. So it's some you. He says he shouldn't
but they say probably get all these human rights groups say that there still they dont know where these Judar, while the other the other Possibility is that the secret prisons have been shut down, but those people are dead, that's kind of via that was par for the course in a lot of ways for the CIA secret prisons. If you have no rights whatsoever to if you die, custody. Nobody cares like, let's say- or I didn't say, no one cares and it there's no accountability for that. Right suffer since I say you were you died of a fixation because you were held in a shipping container. Yet have you seen the road to Guantanamo? Now there's a kind of I guess: doc. Now I know about it as something is foreseen for its wits were seen, but there's
there's a scene in there that that shows that these people being rounded up and shipped across Afghanistan in a huge like shipping container and like when they open the doors the next day like most homer dead it yet roofs, it's really disturbing. Well, like when you get the paternal men. The shoe box, you gotta Mamma, says: remember the holes in the top yeah, currently, mom wasn't around a reminder that now people are thinking like they're in the wonderful the deaf yeah, the secret prison with- and I have to say they had some pretty cool code names, the the first in one of the largest was code name. Salt pit in
in a brick factory and abandoned brick factory outside Kabul and a junior CIA officer, who is Canada New on this kind of thing, ordered a detainees, strip naked and chained to the floor, and he was left overnight and it can get pretty cold, apparently in Kabul, Agatha in the guy froze to death here. So I mean it's entirely possible that this two dozen, these two dozen people, I'm surprised it's not more, but these two dozen people here counted for. My are dead right and is probably the case. Yet you mention the names of a dug up a couple of more, and I would say these are probably top ten list of camps you don't want to go to, but can't but dark prison was one that the ban on and my favorite was camp bond, Steel B, o Andy S, T e l, can't bond steel and thank you for spelling it. Well, it's not steal is in take. It still is in
This is your at all that I will be to right. This is metal that you will leave behind the rest. Your life is a caravan steel. If you want to talk about what what you lose when you're in a CIA prisons, the right you lose traditionally, do you remember like a few years ago? the whole in a word. What are the people in Guantanamo Bear? They enemy combatants rely on combating terrorist liked. What kind of rights they have they do they fall under the Geneva Convention in it was largely decided by the Bush administration. That know these people didn't have Geneva Convention right arrangement with the under the purview of the Geneva convention. The Red cross is charged with going to visit, enemy, combatants and prisoners of war right on both sides and in and see how they are treated with the secret prisons. First of all, the people, no one knew that these
have been. You know the kidnapped, what wouldn't be very good secret prison exactly if their across knew about where they were when yet they were denied in of the Red Cross even after the Red Cross found out that they were here in- and I know you ve got this guy here. We want to visit them in the secret prisons. Quiet cs like now, not letting you in bright. That kind of shook things out. That's a big deal there's no yeah habeas corpus now an end like you mentioned earlier: they they would go to countries where they typically might torture people. And because the U S is allowed to, obviously the Twelveth they weren't at the time right before it was. We decided we torture right, but that we out source it. Like you mention is that we would less I set up, and I think he said the first one was in Thailand yeah so there are looking around there like. Where would I go via one set of his secret prison where you might? Would you torture? Somebody in Thailand was like come on over. You can set up shop here and the they outside.
But from what I read in your article, was you wrote this right from what I read was the? U S could say like hey, ask him about the microphone right. We were passing on. Questions of your direction that is the last I wrote the singing. I can remember some time in two thousand seven. I think late, two thousand seven and time. The last report I had of us of somebody being held the secret prison was in Africa. I believe North Africa and in some Americans an Canadians reported having contact with Americans in these like.
African President Westerners yeah being held captive, secretly sure and some guy behind the curtain saying used the dental drill. Exactly is it any sound like he's from Omaha were any shouldn't, because this is you know, yeah Africa and other places, other other black site host countries get us with a called just like the black budgets and black ups. These are black sites right or goes presence, so you put black in front of it and which related to the government in there's no description, there's just like a huge budget line item. With a shoppy, yet it is the x. It happened, tat the secret prisons, the over some of the other countries, are Azerbaijan Oman Jordan, Morocco, Syria, Egypt, Algeria. All of these places were receiving prisoners, didn't necessarily
black site morale, but then most of the black site countries host countries were eaten. Appear like Lithuania, in Romania, Sir whence it came out, though they would probably try to shut it down, because I didn't want to get out to the press. Will not only did they not wanted to get out to the president in a surly wanted to get out to the in that country and a lot of cases. It was like the CIA, maybe a couple. It may be that in the U S ambassador, that country, right in a couple of like say, Bulgaria's secret police like high commanders. Those are the only people on the planet who knew that there is a secret prison, rogue area where they get no Romania.
Wonder that myself too, I mean like it's gotta, be money right sure it would have to be, because I d really think Bulgarians are quite is apt. Up about american patriotism is say in the average American is yeah, I didn't think so, and especially of bulgarian secret police officer. In a way I saw you, I would think one well, we have, but I said, though, second ago, as they would close like Thailand, when that word got out that they are doing this now, which closes but it seems like every time it happened. They would just find a different country and then gossips up their right and what, with Eastern Europe in particular, is a little prickly or ticklish. Because we will. The Washington Post broke the story
even said in the article like we're not going to reveal the names of the host countries, because right so sensitive that these countries, governments are really can have problems on their hands when it comes out, and indeed they did at first. But the reason why? Because these were all post Soviet Bloc countries that head you know adopted democracies the fall of the Soviet Union right in word now, you know involved in this horrible secret prison network right, You're talking about were got out Nina how we got out This is the Thailand one word get out and what then, unlike the existence of a secret, prolonged period, yeah yeah, do that. Wouldn't a canary singing singing like a canary. No, there was living. There is basically a CIA fall, they didn't do there,
work. They didn't do their homework with the manifest for the planes. Yes, this is what this will correct me. If this year is the funny place, kidnapping people taking them to a secret prison network that they set up right, and yet there honest about flight manifests right, yeah, that's what I don't get. So there is a swedish tv producer who basically did some like hard hitting listen. I think it was cold. Cold facts was a translation The swedish and spent in war count spends fence, and I think it's good. Then, if that's not his name, a bet spends fences better,
Israel, nature so then was was, I guess, investigating the extradition of two swedish citizens to Egypt for questioning right that there were suspected terrorists. So then search looking into the plain that that took them their right and it was a Gulf stream five. Yet a charter these right. Yet there is a Gulf stream five and it was registered to accompany Sven found out very quickly called premier executive transport services and registered in data Massachusetts, then calls premier executive transport services leaves a message wants to know about. You know why they would be transporting suspected terrorists to Egypt right in fifteen minutes later gets a call from a swedish intelligence service. Saying like stop asking questions-
answer Sven starts looking a little further and apparently, I'm finds out very quickly in very short order that there are thirty six planes charter by the CIA making odd started are all that are all making odd stops with the nationalities of the people on board in it they would go from like say Afghanistan, yet the scout to Egypt, Shoe Morocco and then to Guantanamo either flying from Afghanistan to Guantanamo, but somehow they can't get a direct flight and they stopped but like four places along the way right and then at each stop. There's somebody who's, some, you, no country of origin is Oman and they, but they get off. You know in Cuba. Yes, it has very flimsy all the all the companies were dummy court corporations that headache p. O box is listed and yeah the swedish intelligence service basically tipped the sky. Often he
the whistle rather two thousand for a really going near spearhead spin spent an hour I so these press. Josh, we're not saying that you know these are nice guys that shouldn't be picked on these you. These are big time and the one in Thailand. I think the first one, the first guest their first overnight guest, was Abu Zoo by Zubaydah. Yeah and he was a top AL. Qaeda guy. Who's captured and issued on Pakistan was recovering in the hospital and I think he pry knew what was going on you know he's in the hospital saying. I'm still not feel in that great mega should stay here a little longer and then he recovers, and then there are like, while once you come stay in our arts, private hotel was he the one that they they kidnapped, that of his hospital in Somalia, nano
they they did. He hasn't Pakistan yeah. They refuse just recovering after shoot out, and then they brought him to their little the secret hotel- and you pointed out that there is treated well you while he was tortured and treated well said they did. They said they fed him. For lunch and dinner at yeah and he loved tickets, and they gave him coquettes all time did he. I don't know that's what I want this, what I read well, it said they fed him. He was free to work as they fed him, big chicken candy bars, but what, if one is all questionnaire? He filled out like allergic to chocolate and I hate chicken moment. I was that's what I possible and is wondering than theirs also check a list mother Jones. I think yeah, of music, the music of torture, or something like that metallic. As hype, the less than an attacker Rick asked We are really here. The barn is rolled their yeah, while yeah Barney Song at Guantanamo,
very loudly over and over and over again and meal mix commercial. Really I would do the young cooks, pest control here, locally, look! Look looky here comes cookie ex post control that that the guy image, another Abu, as of dire zoo buyer yeah. He was joined shortly thereafter by collegiate Mohammed Frizzy. He I value high value targets, I'm sure when he checked in to the secret hotel, the other guy was psycho crap. What is not good? What's odd, is there you know it? It took us as many years as it did to start assassinating. People like, I think it was just the last couple months that news broke some programmes that the CIA was outsourcing alike, come z world, black water, right and other contractors Ex dealt force. Guys who were you know going into Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, in his ass, in aiding like Al Kay,
leaders and other terrorist got his right so I wonder why we didn't just do that at first. Instead, you know started. I guess we needed info yeah intelligence. He had none. I guess it's probably why they, we're like well, we can't kill em yeah. We want a while what what's goin on who can water boredom and then eight years later will start assassinated and give them kit cats. Apparently, So oh latest news on this either simply recent stuck on yet did you read about the physicians for human rights report? Yes, so, basically,
there were physicians present at a lot of these enhance terror, geishas and not just in an observation manner and with us what they are supposed to be there forest rightly like hey, you just almost drown, so let me make sure you still alive and breathing in good health right yeah. That's that's! Ok! Actually, apparently, as far as the American Medical Association and an international treaties are concerned, right, you allowed do that. You're still fulfilling your purposes, a physician right. They took a step further right. Yes, they did. They added a report out Josh called experiments and torture. Evidence of human subject, research and experimentation in the enhanced interrogation programme and from what I gather the long and short of it as they were gathering information that could later be used to defend in court the torturers that right, I think they were quantifying pain threshold right, like if you water board this guy for this law
experience a pane of eight right, but every letter writing and an outline of what you can do and still get defended in a court of law right which transferred their position as physicians to researchers. Yeah adage transferred the position of these dumb detainees as patients- to test subjects exactly so. They were engaging in human experimentation, yet very much and gathering data as from torture, which is totally illegal yeah, but isn't it. Thing about the ghost prison network, illegal, YO yo. Everything that took place as far as this year was concerned. After two thousand one was illegal and it's not like we're little babes in the woods selling the CIA has been in the on the up and up since then by. This is what this is, so this is the recent this is going Ah now still, I imagine you are those. I am another joint study, a two hundred twenty six page report published
in January of this year and its joint study by the well there's like four different groups and what read all of them all human rights groups and they said of a petition. The concern of the authors and read this verbatim beyond the overall illegality of the entire project. Conceived and executed by the Bush administration is the fate of dozens of men held in secret prisons. Run by the CIA are transferred to CIA prisons, so they estimate you said a couple of dozen you so to couple dozen, I thought that I now they're saying that ninety four prisoners had been rejected and had enhanced interrogation techniques to varying degrees performed on twenty eight of the ninety four. So this was part of the whole torture memo thing: how is it that low? I would think it would be way more than that yeah Anna. I would to some well that's what they found out too, who knows maybe more the tough times here,
yeah, it's weird America and the twenty four centuries was weird place. The first decade was odd. We're vs me, but a bomb is trying to shut these down. I think has, for the most part air will somebody I don't, but I don't know, but I'm not understand that there's nuts Nina thank you stuff go on there to a definite We did not know how it is being made in the woods. This episode of step, you should know, is brought. You buy go to meeting the affordable way to meet with clients and colleagues for your free, thirty re trial. Is it go to meeting dot com, slash, stuff you anything else. None get. If you want to learn more of review, can read my two thousand seven article was there? Was there a secret
because a network does the Edison CIA imprisoned in the handy search bar housetop works dot com, and that takes us, of course, to listener made No, no Josh we're gonna do just a little quickie New York Recap for those of our friends who could not be there dude New York. Was he? U wooing? It was odd and weird surreal an awesome. I will have all the things I ve learned about our fans at least are fans in Brooklyn area, yet sure they're very self, aware in self, conscious people and that makes them highly reliable. Thus, so, like the question, the biggest question I got was this was: very weird for you ha. I think that my I got it every time in every time answers like actually shrilly. We. Maybe this is your standing there, like, unlike twitching, but I
the line it was, it was nice it. Actually, I found it disarming yeah, that's good are we know, everyone knows, went in a Europe where few media opportunities, we did a few interviews, but The night was when we had are happy hour. Yes at the knitting factory in Brooklyn with the union which do we couldn't have done any of this without the onion. They attitude Dan and Joe yes, for putting this heat up together ass, his being our buds yet has a real to get another skies Fisher. Three it what s! This year's sensation, like my dad, was real three Josh So we have a happy hour we get. There are tons of people show up. The fire department comes at one point: zero to many people there, which was so ass. Diana labels is someone fire and they in a hurry. There is gonna stand around talking to people like trying to gauge the amount of people I think,
so we got to meet people. We got to hang out with people in drink, adult beverage with people we get to meet me the australian wagon wagon mark yeah thanks for the cosy, but yet I will get me a lot of people who- and I remembered a lot of disaster- showed up on Monday, sodden injured, the dude Christa Chris and his wife, whose wife was cartilage Acta Wkrishwit. Yes, he was there with his Life and they were super. Often they are almost kind of working for us. They were helping with the t, shirts and taking photographs. Yeah and there was Gregg. I believe he he was gonna helping me to use help Amelia of them the line along and everything. I know there are some really genuinely cool people here, everybody there was super vs. Yes, as a matter and an end to say, special thanks to the banjo do yes, the guy, the banjo and his girlfriend. They gave us the well a lot of people brought gifts and brought me this. She made this really neat little egg where she had made. It does
of thread that was on the egg was really intricate and very cool, very calm, and they also met my friend Justin and helped him out in some ways, and they were very, very cool kids and I can't remember her name, but there's fan there both of us met, but I talk to her for a while Grundy she gave us no, not guarantee, but hey Grundig. Yes, she gave us molecular gastronomic book oh yeah yeah. She just wrote in yet it now, and I thank you for your very also, hopefully, possibly look for a molecular gastronomy, podcast writer and I got cds and like Shirk, bought it lotta bans or like aim animals into this. Yes, and we have to go, listen to the large hadron I guess yes, I have not yet, but I need to get check them out, and so that was Monday. So then we had our Wednesday Flash were to Wednesday and we had our all start Tribune. I added a Bell house in Brooklyn, India, and this was nuts yes.
We had a nice thirteen humbly liable together. Five hundred people reserve. Should I willingly for sure innocent israeli room. Is a big venue contravene? Yes, like I've? U, I could see, sticks playing there, but the others were standing room only. I would say about five hundred people and we we cobbled together this really awesome: Trivia, Tioga, hidden low, the booming. Ok, so we had Jackson public who creates this. Sir. This super cool cartoon called venture brothers may be familiar. He was one of them had matters on the tick yes and he was brought along by our buddy John Hodgman. We can say our body, yet we can now. I feel at ease our friend he is here.
To fill it way and I'm really glad the John brought Jackson along because he actually saved our butts like several kinds of questions. Yet we would have. There would have been like five six questions that we would again had it not been for him pays vehicle guy Tuna Y see neck from the daily show came along another body, super cool. We actually had lunch with you when one day, yes, the the esteemed Joanne dazzled, the editor in chief of the onion, who again we could have done any of this without Joe was also Joe. Was there just looking pomp? Do you know, because a border zones that are smoked, ivory, intimidating and then Eyeglass yes I regret the man that we step up at in Itunes rankings every day, was there in on our team? Not there did but right now there are tat. He was very cool and I just need to say that he came up to me.
And was blown away, do your impression to an honest, imprisoning aquaculture. Your fans are amazing, those clothes he was blown away but by the enthusiasm of the stuff you should know army and he does it and randalls came up to anything. Then ire doesn't get this sort of like rockstar thing much, so he was tickled to be there. I thank you people, you know falling over him and telling him how much they loved them is somehow he deserves and Hodgman? We went and John Hodgman as our team yeah, and he was one of the funniest quickest witted smartest guise of ever met. My life agreed, I'm with you
hundred percent, like it's all, nobody Scotty about that. He said: you're, really quick. There, man, s idea but Y, know dude when I quickly make like a heart joke enlargement. Is that quick? But he references like an eighteenth century poet right and it fits in it's funny. It's like a young drag racer in, like a fifteen year old donkey competition alone. You here by God like the twelve year old. Don't you think I wanna are it so I yet we eggs everybody. Thank you very much about it, who helped the that and it was such a success. We have such a good time that we're like, why would spend any more time at the office. Let's go hit other cities. So look further cities in the very new future. I want to know where we should go next, so if you have a suggestion of what city we should go. That kind of thing you wanna plays in trivial. Let us know, send an email to stuff podcast at how stuff works,
com for more openness and thousands of other topics, as a house of works are com, what more house of words check out our blogs on the house of work, stock homepage brought you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry? It's ready. Are you text? They will be before you know it everybody but relax because H in our black as your one stop tack shop, their tax pressure experts, certified and train and eighteen are black, has up front transparent pricing, which means you know the price before again no surprises and with offices open early and late, it's easy to walk in, make an appointment or just drop off your documents. Do your taxes outlawed or in your maximum refund. In your pocket visit each hour, block dot com, slash textile defined the closest office to you, it's better with black
Transcript generated on 2020-01-28.