Biologist and science historian Rupert Sheldrake is known as a heretic of science, mostly for his deeply strange ideas about what connects all living things. But his pokes at science help keep the field from growing dogmatic and for that we salute him.
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welcome to step you should now a production of Iheart radios have stuff works, work under the podcast on Josh Clerk, there's Charles the Beach Brian over there in theirs. Guess producer Dylan Sittin in this fine Wednesday morning, weirdness that everything that is lacking in strange, I know right, hopefully our voices sound normal chuck. I was worried about that soap
that anyone cares yeah, but our regular Tuesday sash got pushed because our computer took a dump
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they mornings, usually so usually I'm just making.
Damn jokes and causing a lot with no right now, if I hate that
I got a switch, my brain back into G rated mode. Yet to talk about Rupert Shell Drake.
It is overdue in and you can curse if you will be paid out, shoal drag
pending on, I think, there's other scientific committee will be reversed. This is one of those names it seems like it should be held at like that, and I liked the column Rupert
after I never gonna die, cocaine in number thirty rotten scoundrel member, he called esteemed Martens. Name at one point was Rupert. There's a cork and the fork figure manners
get moving. It was so or time at a different, Rupert or Rupert referred Rupert shall Drake, who is widely considered in the scientific community. A heretic in fraud, hoax stir a suit
scientists, all sorts of things in normally. We know entertain that kind of stuff, or specifically people who are considered as such, because we tend to be like a suitor. Science is not so great, but there's something.
Rupert shall drake there is that instead of his job, maybe a little bit something like that, but he he is different in sight,
ways. He kind of stands alone. He's got staying power to say the least. He was first branded a scientific care taken. Nineteen eighty one and he's still are
I'm doing this thing taken off the scientific establishment, young
see he's also in certain circles, labelled as
an open minded scientist right in someone
afraid to kind of question the
unquestionable and someone
flies in the face of what some people call the scientific orthodoxy or dogma where everything is so
did that there is no room for new ideas to be right. Lord right that that basically and assigned
If orthodoxy that you refer to a kind of says,
We are on basically the right track. We
generally have the the parameters configured out. We now
there, the math we need.
Using, we know the places we need to be looking. We have
generally in everything, from physics to biology in and
standing of the general structured. Now, it's just a matter of filling in the details.
We looked under the hood.
What's goin on generally, we know that it's combustion-
in and not an electric car that the universe is there
I think electric car right so when somebody comes along and says no, no, the saving a car.
That you're looking at the boat and the scientific,
Sadly, men are really any establishment. Really ten cigarette shook by that kind of stuff. They don't like that in one of them,
I was trying to figure out why people get so invested in this. I think there's a lot of people who come and say I am
listen of science. I believe in this I subscribe to it and they end up going so far as to pin their identity to it in this happens with just about any any structure yeah, and when you pin your identity to something when that, when that something that structure is attacked-
you take it as a personal attack, and I think that this one of the reasons why a lot of people are so rapidly against Rupert Shell Drake. Since we talk about this guy, I think we should. I think
chuck. We should explain what are the reasons why he has such staying power, and what makes them different is that he is about his trained scientist as a sign
This can be yeah, and you know, as we move through this you'll, see, that what makes him stand out from kind of other kooks. Is it he's there
Very intelligent guy he's right he's, not a cook now. So that's why it's kind of like that's. Why certain people listen to him
One of the other things are really one point out at the start of this in this is what really differentiates him from a lot of people on the fringes today is he's not in a hole.
He's Dre polite here. Com is very measured. He doesn't engage and add hominem attacks against his critics. He engages with his critics. He is he's. Actually
very congenial person, yeah he's just on a different side of the coin, from scientific ex smitten,
almost every respect, yeah and when I've read articles in interviews with other people from the establishment that have hung.
With him and done experiments they're, all like he's, really affable kind of fun, guy, exactly
and then, when you look at him and you when you hear group
Shell Drake doesn't scream fun ineffable now, but he hates he's got lampshade on his head. Nine tenths of me
Can you imagine that the lab parties, beer born Freaky ice
He started out his career, color
I down the middle science, science wise would to Cambridge.
As an undergrad, he won a botany prize
the University Botany prize? He then went to Harvard Study philosophy. He studied the history of science. There was a big one, Whit
to Cambridge yeah, apparently he's just like a savant when it comes to science, history, with back to
bridge goddess Phd and Bio,
mystery and then opposed stock with the royal society in
development in the aging of cells. So I think that's an essay
double unimpeachable. It really is.
I had just kind of continued along. This is largely in the seventies Hetty just kind of continued along this path. He probably would have been of a real
widely respected other pretty obscure, plant, scientist or biologist of some sort right, one of many, but one of the things that happen to him was he went to India
and studied ends in lifted and ashram for about. It
year and a half and apparently smoked a lot of hashish while he was
there now is. It true use, given the hasheesh part just goofing, but
but surely he did but
This is a round this time he elaborated on an idea that he'd had that he learned about probably in his history of science, the classes that science can't explain how you can take some cells. That start out is like a seed or something like that, and that is a little sea grows into in oak.
And that that oak tree looks startlingly similar to other oak trees, that you know you can dig up from
thousand years ago were imagine that they'll basically looked like a thousand years from now or that are spread out on different continents. They can't science can explain how morphology works, that that how something becomes the thing that it is in that that resembles something else, and you say well, it's genetics, like that's kind of the common thing, but here we get to that point where science is like work, we ve got the broad strokes. We just don't understand the details and end
Genetics can possibly be the thing that explains this later on, but we really have no idea how this stuff works, because it's really really intricate. How something like that happen.
Yeah. It's almost like Shell Drake was like Tom Hanks in big in the in the board room when it talks about the toys and he to second
yeah like has also oil is DNA and he's a year, but
I don't get it like. How does a to become the tulip roads? Dna yeah,
but that really doesn't explain, does unexplainable well,
The dna we are
Yeah. I don't get it again to him. Specifically. Dna is a chemical that that dictates how other chemicals are produced.
Try using leaves very over rated, he does, which that in another self is heretical. Those pretty funny to Wade is, but with with this, with a more followed you with the house, something takes the shape that it has. Eventually,
it's a mature state, there's a lot going on there. There's like little cells then have to set up an arranged in a certain pattern.
In that later on down the road? After all, these processes play out? Will form another patterns, others basically planning, there's time
like all those that process has to happen at just the right steps and generate stages for their end result to be what it supposed to be theirs. Differentiation of cells, where one cell camper
to do so, and the new cell has totally different genes turned offer on that will allow it to specialise in these are the things we don't understand. What's kiting it and so Rupert Shell Drake Kind of tapping into a thought that
started? I think back in the nineteen twenties among biologist that there must be some unseen guide or force that is that basis
key says I've got this. I know what the end result is. I can take the starting bid and guided in to this end result, and we don't understand what that is.
Yet there were a couple of scientists in the twenties and thirties studying what they called more for genetic fields.
Which is sort of like the idea that there is this invisible mould that we know
I understand that gives the shape to these things. Gunning, CIA
Waddington and nineteen thirty six had a paper called morphogenesis in the field,
cept and then a russian biologist name Alexander, give its. Can I had the same thoughts but
I think he came independently to these thoughts, which was hey there,
then, what's going on here, were calling it
for genetic fields, and this is this, like. I said this idea that
These invisible models that we not fully get that gives things their eventual
shape and that's why they all look alike right, so so
the ashram in the late seventies, early eighties, shoulder it was kind of vibrant on this idea of there must be some some some field, these more.
Fields or whatever that guide the development of something living into its mature form, because we just don't understand it so hey. Maybe that's just as good and explanation is our current understanding, which has really
non existent. So he took it further, though anybody at work and it can take a further wrote- a book called a new science of life. It was his first
As far as I know, at the very least, it was his first book that really kind of made a splash and in it he he kind of said these, these more for genetic fields, we're gonna, call morphing fields now, and not only do they wish they guide the morphogenesis of a living thing. They guide its
hey viewer from from that moment on from the moment of conception onto, I guess it's death, and then, when that thing dies the life that its lead will contribute to this morphine residents that
carries on to the next generation and the generation beyond that, and so you eventually have this
long line of tulips that no,
not only how to grow
into the right shape, but how to behave
and do all the things that tulips do because of all of the living tulips that came before it through this process of war.
The residents yet and not just like that tulip grow,
nearby at the same time. But he said what, if it just, was a cross all of space and time
and the tulip in Africa in the nineteenth and
free is has informed the two
in Florida in the year twenty twenty how to grow right
and everyone went home
good hashish over there in India, in the nineteen seven, these writer shouldering right, so you will go, get towers, received intimate bullets. You wanna, take a break in and can make a kind of x
how how he says it works a little more yeah, but I also think I totally spoiled how it was received, but that has earned.
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at the point where Rupert Sheldrake is published, his one thousand nine hundred and eighty one book a new science of life and in it he's talking about this morphic resonance that basically says anything that self organizes from a molecule to a giraffe knows how to take the shape or is it
by a process that shapes it called. More fact, fields, but even more than its behaviour is future behaviour is shaped by these same morphing fields. All of the all the things that the the giraffe
that came before it learned in new and saw and ate and figured out becomes a kind of body of consciousness,
passed along the every new giraffe. That's born you, I think we should read this quote. Ok
great interview in scientific American and whose it was
it was interviewing. Am I can't remember now? Was it rose now? I'm not sure,
it was a contemporary who is more mean introduced
mainstream science button. He again was like the celtic guy he's, got somethin he's gotta quality,
So here's. How shall drake himself answers the question of morphine residents mortar
sentences, the influence of previous structures of activity on subsequent similar structures of acts.
Eddie organised by morphing fields. It enables me
is to pass across both that space and time from the past
the similarity, the greater the
influence of Morphia residence with me
does all self organizing systems like molecules crystal cells, plants, animals and animal societies have a collective memory.
On which each individual draws into which it contributes, and here is the key here. I think he says in its most general sense. This hypothesis implies that the so called laws of nature or more like habits you
scientific establishment really particular until at last very upright there yet shall Drake just
stop the laws so called laws of nature. So there's something in there that kind of stuck out to me that I was curious about. I couldn't find an answer to. Is that
he says the greater the similarity, the greater the influence of more for residents. But what is the symbol
Clarity say unlikely
wrath embryo, then allow
the more for granted residence of all the drafts that came before to be like this. This is the thing we need to exert our influence on like what similarity attracts that more progress. I took that to mean- maybe not in the case of giraffes, but in the case of like different variety.
These of an orchid like the most
miller. You know cause that's why they're all different ones- maybe not yet, but
is the initial similarity
be that that morphing field, recognise
It is in that specific kind of argued that says: oh I'm gonna influence you or is it just wish a comment? It is naturally happens. I don't know, but
These are the questions that you start to wonder about when you read sheltering stuff, which is,
the reason why I like em, like he, it is, makes you think, he's a stir think differently than than just like us, its dna, you, where are you with this guy overall
sympathetic to him, because I admire that he has a tremendous amount of courage
and willingness to take tons of flak and I'm sure in this day and age ought to hate threats. I think that I am critical of the fact that he stopped
pushing peer reviewed papers all the way back in the mid eighties near that makes him currently less
scientists are more science communicator, but he's also kind of making up his own science,
his own of qualified designs, communicator bet, I generally like him,
We share the role that he he plays in this, the sir with science. What about you? I'm kind of
He there of admire his his could suffer because
I dont think that he is a charlatan out just to make money. Selling books, like some people, think the identity, and it is a really
smart guy who gave has given
His whole life too deep, deep thought and research on this stuff.
And I read some of it and I think maybe
listen, I read other stuff and I make this sounds like magic right.
And we are men of science. Yes, you know where we are broadcasters.
Yeah right, but we have always eaten of roundly sided with the scientific method as sort of the baseline. And if you can't, you can't satisfy the scientific method, then we typically kind of poo poo,
but there's something again about the way he's gone about it. That just doesn't seem like he's just some wacko out there making stuff up yet. I think he also candid tunes into something that I dislike, which, as you know, he's really critical and really challenges. You note harden die,
of a lot of the scientific community where gaily. This is just how it is well why
gee, I don't know I was taught that, but that's just how it is and stop questioning- and I really dislike that- and I like him that he challenges that as well.
Yeah, there's a rigidity in science that turns us both off, I think so, turned off as you make a joke, but I'm not going their cars in the many crush Moselle right on right on the cypriot people,
and ass for his king are so let's, let's look at a car, a few examples of claims at him. He makes about things that he thinks
Norfolk. Residence might explain in nature, specifically with animal behaviors. He says things like fish schooling by
flies, monarchs flying thousands of miles to the same place, homing pigeons term
AIDS in Africa that are blind that build. You know a ten foot tall nest with ventilation structures. He said all this
Duff or, more importantly, will look at this little closer in a minute
Their owner and a dog anticipating their owners return, even though it
time that happens right, like this sense that the dog,
and his waiting by the door. He thinks that's all explained by morphine
residence yeah? I I mean like it, it's curious in that
you know how does a
a b. No after makes that wax ring in a honeycomb. Has it no two to melted into appalling
shape rather than dry circle or like those termites, like
it is a termite nest. Look almost identical,
other termite nests dna? You know yet
actually like there's, there's a lot of behaviors that we can quite explain that if you do can buy ended,
more progressive, his idea, you could say well
actually really really interesting. Now- and this is a real good
criticism of morphine residence is, you could also just as equally say, magic
or right God or whatever, there's not the EU.
No one's proven that more fact residents exists. This is just Shell Drake saying here is a good examples of what I'm talking about this morphine rest.
Stuff year, and this is a kind of important too. He talks about the fact that humans are not as sensitive to this, because
This is where he can. I got me a little bit thinking. He says we're so distracted by technology
We don't need collective memory of past humans to survive anymore, so
That's why we're not less, why we can't really, since these fields, in a kind of disagree with
in some ways like I think, if, if it does exist, it still is it still survives in humans in things like think about how how easily the average human can pick a snake out of the grass Britain with peripheral vision?
I was raised around snakes by parents, didn't drumbeat Emma into my head to be really wary of all snakes, and yet I'm a pro picking a snake out in the grass with my peripheral. Are you really sure- and it's been shown that that people can like pick a gun out as quickly as they can pick out snakes
I am a really good at picking out snakeskin spiders in our environment and that this would be a pretty good example of that. If you ask me that is the most common descriptor, I think when people say what's Josh like
Am I right? He drinks a lotta beverages, coffee what're. You know energy drinks,
he is a hard worker and man. You should see that guy pick a snake out of his peripheral uncanny
It makes a gun shot, ricochet sound, I don't
for a walk in the woods without him anymore. Sometimes you
Carry me on your back when I get time so here's a couple,
things with human morphing residents that this is. Where
gets a little wacky to me. He says he claims that a crossword puzzle is easier to
plead later in the day because
of all the other people that had solved it earlier in the day and they are broadcasting this morphine residence out into the universe.
Yeah, just their general awareness of the answers that gets a little
fuck, you too me yellow
the other one, is not as wacky is that feeling eyes
back your head, like you're, being stared at that's a thing. He says: that's morphing fields
yeah that your morphing feel extends beyond your head and that its sensitive in is the first thing contacted by that person stare and let you know basically that you're being stared at him.
This is crazy heat, its he's going in the right direction that I hear that make our boy. That sounds a little wacky. I write another really good explanation for that that it's a self fulfilling thing where you
say. You're in the library to whatever you get the sense that you're being stared at by somebody a table behind you and when you start to turn around the movement of your head k, look at our sins
tension interesting and when you look when you finally complete that turn, that person is looking at you, let make sense, especially if you like
second, you turn around
Yeah then they're definitely look the next time he turned to his are keeping an eye on you right or they're, just looking for snakes, so Charles
As you kind of said earlier, this is not all been very well received by the scientific community, its said who hates they tend to think of it as hokum on the fact that it
publish peer reviewed papers any more in and said, write books directly to the to the public, the fact that they claim that his stuff is false viable. But if you read his explanations and discrepancies like nicely, this all is false, viable and I tried to run experiments all the time. Sometimes it comes back with positive results, but they generally don't like the stuff that he saying in particular, there was one guy who looking back made Rupert Shell drinks career in his name was Sir John Maddox and at the time that
or was it the science, the new science of life, yet signs of life when that book came out, Sir John Maddox happened to be the editor of the journal. Nature nature in science are the two most prestigious scientific period.
You'd publications in the entire world, he's knighted for God's sakes and this guy
I was the editor of that and he got his hands on the signs of a new signs of life and wrote not just a book review an editorial about this book from the editors of nature, claiming that it was in infuriating tracked and that it was the best candidate for burning.
Has been for many years yet. Also this and a ninety ninety four interview he said Shell is putting forward Madge.
Instead of science,
that, can be condemned in exactly the language that the Pope used to condemn Galileo. For the same reason, it is heresy right. So, if you were curious about how Sir John Maddox felt about the dogma of science, the fact
then he used the word heresy. Kindest says it all right- and this is thirteen years after that first and invoked the pope
doubling down on us and any didn't mention they turned out. Galileo was right, even though we position himself and science in the Pope position in this one burn. The fact is he used the word.
Burning. He in his defenders later on will say like no heed. If you read the whole thing at the end, he says no, we shouldn't be burning books, but he does say that there's had
been a better candidate for bread if we were to burn books, they good at first when on the vile right, and so that you know from that point on Rupert shall drags publishers alike will be using manner.
Does jacket of everyday. I remember is from now on and made his career. He went from somebody who might have never been in
body to the premier heretic of science? Thanks to that dusty all crotch, Sir John Medics, yeah, here's
the old crotch yeah, not a big fan of man or anybody who suggests we should burn books. So here's
their quote from another professor biology at University College, London, Louis Wolpert, Norfolk. Residence is rubbish, it is
unmitigated junk in a great insult to the people
do real work in the field and I am sure we could spend the next twenty minutes finding quotes like that sure out there,
Fuck yeah in children response is always been me. He'll go back
it people for sure, but not
in a sort of a puppy bans way right
basically, is like an end
didn't you know in any idea that doesn't conform to this religion of Sciences denounced, and he said it's close minded its close minded system. It goes against the nature of what science is, which
be discovery and investigating hypotheses effect
they are valid until they are proven or disproven by experimenting so get off my back with your dusty crutch and in fact some some scientists in the field earn in a number of fields, have kind of come to shell drinks, defence, not so much
they have criticized dramatics. I get the impression that you don't you don't criticized, Sir John. The managing editor of Monsieur Josh Clark Agnes right here, Lomna scientists, I've got no skin in this game, but they came to shoulder its defence in that they said. Okay, if you're saying these are falsified bullets, let's do some experimentation that lets take. Let's take this to the to the point: you're you're, putting it outlets. Let's apply the science,
the method to this year here smoked his hash, no sheltering so that to them like ok, for the further data to make sense, you get a smoke, this first nets they would look at head is here. I got it, but that's everybody.
To hang out with them because he's gotta get stuff right or AIDS
Should we talk about
a little bit about what he claims when he's try to prove yeah, because so again, like he's his run, these experience, but there have been, I just want to say there have been a few people have come up and then, like you know, be us bs. With Sir John said, we can be burning books, I'm going to extend an olive branch on behalf of the scientific community and
and we're going to test some of these experiments. Yes, he drill down on a feud in a few different areas that were going to talk about. One is the one I talked about about humans being stared at the other. Is the dog
anticipating their owners and return right. Basically, human dog telepathy Right
and then you have a boy as soon as that were to let these turn out. That's science killer, yet
That's it I mean that's a big easy criticism of children's ideas is that they they include
the lapithae that the idea it we're tuned in this general body of conscious knowledge that that was accumulated
all the living things that came before us and that this exists out
of our minds and we can connect to it with our minds. That's telepathy and yeah, there's no way to put it up,
well inside in general, which we should probably progress on at some point sure
chipping away a little by little, but yet
and the third one that that he can a drill down on was the idea that differ, that
successive generations of lab rat, can solve their
little puzzles and problems faster and easier than generations before that is because of morphine residents. Yeah there's been day,
he's either carried out experiments himself or he's he's in a pointed out to publish data before that is shown that I think back in the thirties, there was a a I guess. A biologist or a psychologist, who was training, mat or rats, have
run a maze, and he found to his amazement that rats of successive generations over, like thirty six generations,
did better initially on these mazes than their predecessors, which would suggest at well a lot of things but apparently controlled for
genetics and environment and said it's possible that this is. This is somehow being passed down from one generation to the next outside of gene near so, let's talk about the dog thing because we have dogs and we love to think that our dogs
our little people and that they sit by the door waiting on us.
Got the window and are just sad until we get home sure, and so he did this.
Paramount and then later on did some more experiments with a partner which will talk about you're an insect, but
found a lady, a british woman who her name was PAM and she headed dog named gaiety
J, why D favouring an she
said: hey use me
because I get this dog who were
by the window before it
home, no matter when I come home right so dead matter,
Mama five or ten o clock at night or three in the afternoon, the dog
by the window, so I think there's some telepathy going on in children said well step right up. Then, let's see what's going on,
yeah. It wasn't just that her dog!
by the window, the whole time she's gone. It's that people had noticed there.
Don t I window, you sit up
go to the window and then within a few ten minutes, or something like that. Pam would come home right and started singing true colours by sending offer her height
she would come home at different times of the day like this is a pretty. It was a remarkable thing so,
apparently over a hundred different tests shall Drake found that eighty four out of a hundred times this dog accurately predicted when PAM was.
My home and sell drakes whole high path in eleven seconds. We
People should understand not that the stock, here's, the car, Poland
Within a in seconds of her leaving to go home right, leaving her office, I think riled more miles away examined again. This is at different times of day they apparently experimental so that she would come home and different kinds of cars, including taxis, said the dog. Couldn't some
like here this. This particular arm of the of pans mode
or something like that,
control for a lot of stuff. This is something yet understand about Rochelle Drake. He carries out scientific experiments like as under the scientific method. What people disagree with his his interpretation of the data typically, but he controlled for all,
different stuff and he found the eighty four times out of a hundred J T accurately predicted roughly win
PAN was gonna come home by getting up and going to the window the way for her right yeah. I think that first, when there was not quite so scientific wasn't that the deal. This is why they re did it now.
They didn't redo it because it was in scientific. They re did it because one of his greatest critics, Richard wise men, who is a bum back, you think a psychologist, but also like a professional sceptic said this is bs.
Let's lights, but let me carrier army, replicate year, experiment and see. If I get the same result, ok cause the he had an austrian documentary crew and they said that the tests wasn't scientific. Oh I'm sorry right. They like their therefore
meaning what they did was not scientific, but he had already previously carried out in,
private that no one saw yeah, but I mean you know that our scientists do that all the time I dont think that he's. I don't think he has been accused of fudging his methodology, I think he's just roundly
queues of Jerry hearing taking data or misinterpreted,
The data are interpreting the data to suit his needs that kind of stuff, but I dont get the impression that a lot of people like this data on its at its core,
how come I were wise men, like you, said, noted sceptic.
National poor of things experimental psychologist.
He comes sentences. Artless do this together, he said
are this dog didn't
in four different occasions: an arm for different experiments. This dog failed right
and this dog is go into the window alight
He needed a window hang around.
Here, this dog loves that window and so
they said, are less rule out some of these false positives and lets say what's this
fine? What the real signal would be? That's if his dog stays at the window for two minutes, not pops up to see if it's raining or to sing
stands of true colours, but really sits there for two minutes
and then, let's see what happens, they did that
Wise men said
our aid, and we got also say it's gotta, be within ten minutes of her leaving for
not eleven minutes, right, shaved off one minute and
in all four of these experiments. This dog gives a signal before that
minute period before she even
I did for home, so wise man said failed. So if you read, shall Drake Syn
rebuttal too wise men's findings.
Husband ran around, not just saying failed. He like a gave, I think, for different talks about this experiment. Sure I would like it was. It didn't amount to anything and so Sheldrake responded to it and he was like well. This two minute duration was in our
prairie signal that you came up with their own part of my original methodology and then also- and I think, I'll for those experiments or it may be all for. So
The dog went to the window early and and
afterward. If he went to the
no again, which apparently, he did to wait for PAM that was thrown out.
Because he had already gone to the window before is I never said the dog only went to the window when PAM was coming home. I just said
He would go to the window to wait for PAM. You know within some certain time frame of her leaving and apparently the dough
can t you do it, but it wasn't included in these tests because he had already gone into so you really detailed and in you can read it yourself if you want to, but he has a good explanation for why wise men's interpretation of the data was in a or his methodology was flawed, but it
all very simple, like you were saying before he's not like wise men's more on you couldn't do science if it sat on em in India, caused him to stop breast parading anything yet
Think it's the other thing. He because you know the thing.
Wiseman Poohpooh was the fact that the dogs started this behavior, but
where she started for home and children was like hey. I think that
further proves it actually cuz. I think that PAM ascending signals beforehand.
Starts we're home that she didn't even realize right, like maybe she she gets recur,
and goes to the restroom for a few minutes or something even while she was well,
I saw the beginning of the going home process yeah or she was with wise men's assistant and wise
The system was the one who knew what time they were going home. So she he said, maybe PAM was picking up on that,
I looking at his watch or something like that and knew when she was going to go home anyway. There's a lot of kids, a lot of explanations for his very interesting, the kind of read the back and forth by
so that the so but Wiseman one that one, because everyone wanted wise men to win that went in, and I think that's kind of par for the course for shelter. Acute he's like what
airs all these other explanations for this interpretation and peoples is kind of ignore. Unless you want to believe what shall Drake has to say, that's right if you dont want to believe it shows. Rick has a say people. Likewise, when another sceptics provide
You know what here we carried out this experiment, and now this is disprove and right,
the guy who did. There is a really big critic of Shall drake. His name is Stephen rose.
Qc by now, I'm sorry he's yeas biologists and a neuroscientist Stephen rose and dumb.
He carried out another experiment about how chicks might be able to
can like that lab rat experiment. How, with a successive generations, learned how to do it?
as we did this with chicks and they did this experiment together, and they had different
applications of the data and it went back and forth in in different journals or whatever, but the fact is there are scientists out there skeptics, who are critics of Sheldrake and his ideas, a method, but
still scientists that are willing to engage his ideas, and I think that that healthy, even
they are coming at it from you know. The standpoint like this is bunkers hokum there still willing to go through these experiments, and I respect that attract. Are you gonna take another break? Yes, our eye chuck
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swine escape. Let me
Vincent Van Gogh, one of the greatest painters and most tortures souls of all time. There's something truly magical about the fact that he pulled out of this life of misery. This joyful images of flowers and rolling hills,
right colors would open Einstein be diagnosed with attention deficit disorder. Today he was a very good student and math and science is, and he was in media, accrue to decent student in other areas. Some of that lack of interest that it also lack of talent was Harry, Houdini predestined to become the greatest scape artist based on.
Families great escape. All of these things can function is sort of a metaphor for
own Genesis and origins story which
seems to be again, you know a series of escapes, I'm doctor
EL salts and all my new podcast personality, I'll, be joined by amazing experts. To delve into the minds of famous historical figures
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on the one hand and buried so
Stephen rose in this. This quote kind of really puts.
The nail on the head of the critics of Shell Drake,
in this. Actually is one that spoke to me because it's not it's not in it
icon on Shall drake it's more of a sympathetic view, which is this. Shell Drake is so committed to his hypotheses
It is very hard to envisage the circumstances in which he would accept its disk
right, it's a very sweet way of saying, like this guy- really really believes this stuff. So much that, like I dont think he is able to
look at the data in a sort of
we're headed, unbiased way, right,
oh and then set at all. I mean that's tough, to take a big, it's very cutting criticism, because how do you
You show, that's not true other than to say said: just shall dwell now. These are wrong. You know you have to admit that your hypothesis is wrong to to
a way to get around them and then once you ve done that you ve just lost anyway. So as its up very it's very shrewd criticism
yeah Social Drake over the years has his written wanna books. He has been accused of he's been accused by some of
like hey this guy's, just other right and books to make money
his sort of made himself this, the superstar of the alt side of science. That seems to be the biggest explanation for why
Why he's doing what he's doing they found it easier and easier and quicker path to fame and wreck
ignition, improbably money writing these books about this. His are made
ideas rather than writing. You know academic papers like everybody else right.
Aid and unchildlike side he's like listen this. What he calls the default world view of science and these dogmas, he said they should be sort of pushed back against.
And what about you and yet questioned what about the Big bang
like everyone, Nino thinks they have, it all figured out and all laws in the universe or constant. Well, except
big bang, and then you know we can't fully explain that and that there is another
great quote from a philosopher named
Mckenna, I love this quote is give us one
free miracle and will explain the rest.
And you know when it comes to things like the big bang. That kind of holds true. Yes, specifically with the big bang. I think, is what he's talking about that. If you can
just allow, for there is one piece of magic, nothing, nothing that came before in all of a sudden, all the matter and energy in the universe suddenly existed, then we can pretty much explain all
their physics from that point on her, we can use that
and in this way the question is what happened right before the Big Bang
yeah exactly, but we also have other questions about the universe like is it inflating there? You knows you're, gonna, be a big bang. Areas are going to be a big crunch shore
We have a lot of questions in a lot of misunderstanding about it too, but we physics needs the Big bang,
You have happened, the way that we think it might have happened, but even still, the way we think it might have happened doesn't follow the physical laws as we understand it, and so
she'll draken others pointed out one in there like come on guys like this is just one of several examples of science,
saying this is the way it is even though we
don't fully understand it or the data were getting suggests otherwise, right and man,
can I say this in a way: that's not like controversial, neither isn't it!
not the same as when. Let's say
a a creationism say
well. You can't really explained the Big bang, so it's all magic in that's, ok,
right right, yet only do not is not along the same lines or something different about. What shall Draken saying, I think, weighty saying is yet in some key
Is he like? We don't understand this, so here's my interpretation, I think in his more rights
Send book assigns delusion which came out in two thousand twelve in the. U S is called science set free. He saying here are some some essential, dogmatic beliefs of science that are worth challenging and that if we
Don't challenge them? We we might end up going down this wrong path of scientific inquiry.
To be a little more free to differing ideas here. Cause
we don't understand these things. Like everybody generally believes we do. I think he kind of and the book title itself it. He said in America, science set free that
encapsulates? I think he sees himself is as some kind of them
answer: Pater of science
rather than a cook who believes in telepathy right they, even though he kind of I
stuff and diverse helped us with this. With this research, the I did a great job here,
and you know he points out in his right morphine resonance-
very strange and weird yeah
You know- and it also sounds like something that would sell a book he right.
But to throw him in there, I think it's rose said he's basically no
no better than someone who endorses crop circles and creationism right as pseudoscience yeah. I don't think that's necessarily fair no
even so, if you take away things like more fact, resonance in things like, while mortar
residents basic data. If you, if you take us away and just look at him- is like a challenger to scientific dogma, you can appreciate,
on that level as well like it, he D, you can pull back different layers of the sky and appreciate different parts and also disagree with different parts, but so in his most recent when the sign solution, he basically says here some things that science believes that
Then you shouldn't necessarily believe like that matters unconscious, and there are people out there, including physicists you're, like you know, if consciousness were just a a proper
of all matter.
The more matter you put together the more sophisticated consciousness you got now it
spleen a lot of stuff and voting human consciousness as just an emergent property of all these particles. That came
The reform human beings, but currently scientific establishment, says no matters unconscious. That's just our understanding of it. That's the way it is yet, although the
is being challenged by more people into Super baldric, and then there is another. When you give a TED talk, attacks, White Chapel talk,
It was later band right or not wound but brave. They took it from their Youtube chant
and then inserted into a blog posts. You can still see it rightly put it in a blog posts because their science advisers have been like this
pretty heretical, and I don't think you should just be presenting it like it's just. You need to couch it in some language to they didn't they put in a blog post, but you can still see it. It's not like they just took it down altogether.
It's a really interesting talk is only like twenty minutes long, but in it he makes a really good case.
How the laws of nature, like the gravitational, constant or the speed of light art actually constant in physics, needs those things to be constant for it
do its inquiries for it to do its formulae and equations for the current theories to work, any saying no, there's been p
he's in his room where we ve measured these things and got indifferent different measurements and that during that same period, all these
print scientists around the world were getting roughly the same different measurements from what we thought it was before ready. Explain that any. I think that point is really important, because if something like the speed of light does change an understanding that
does and how it does could give us an even greater understanding of physics and that right there, I think, is the greatest role that Rupert sheltering places to say: no stop looking at it through. This lends this land is possible.
Incorrect at the very least, dont burn, all your old stuff, don't throw it away, but just stepped to the side and approach from a different way. Just to see. If that's that
Ruth and, if it is, the G8, will have a greater understanding of how things actually work yeah, because
all are only unexplainable until they can be explained. You're right, you know, and
various points throughout history.
There. There were a lot of claims that things were unexplainable until they figured it out yet again
turning pseudoscientific as we have a pretty good track record of jobs,
roundly citing on the side of science, yes, but and expertise.
Oh, you have a tremendous amount of respect for expertise in your people who go study
for years and years and years and apply themselves to the understanding that one thing that's an expert and they should generally be listened to that right and shall Drake has proven himself out enough to be listened to. I think he's not.
that guy what has yet so
yeah, I may make up your mind, go read about a month ago. Read both sides about em. If you, if you're interested in this, don't just listen to us like he's, definitely want to people, you should make your own mind up, and if you disagree great, if you agree fantastic words is kinda. We just kind of admire thinkers like that attract a yankee us another knelt, Rupert Shell Drink. That was it. You know more about him. Go read I go scurried is both, could do what you want and in the meantime,
I say: go, do what you want simply listener man. Yet this one is a little long, but this is a first hand account from iolcus. So I thought
This is from Lauren student at University of Iowa participated in her first, I will caucus ass. She said at last. She did it
I went because it's such a big deal here and since some graduating, I thought it might be my only chance.
However, this week's events it's looking like it may be the last time anyone is going to participate. There were several legit
go issues in my opinion that lead to issues where I was participating, my carcass,
occasion was downtown. I was sitting at the NGO, alert and glared theatre.
Am. I remain. I write about forty five minutes before they make sure
could be in the door before seven. Since we have been told if you weren't in the door, then he s for you to line
for the carcass wrapped. Around the block, one for people who registered in the correct precinct and one for people who
did to change their registration to the correct precinct there.
For seven hundred people in our caucus location alone, far more than they are. The Democratic Party of Iowa had expected. Since my caucus location was a theatre is almost impossible to distinguish where different
and its were in the room. The Bernie and worn groups are so large. They had locations on the floor and had to
have satellite spots in the balcony came to,
to do the head count. The overcrowded space led to issues telling people
All of the campaign. Volunteers had reported numbers caucus, delegate informed us that the total number of people under each candidate
about fifty under the amount of total people checked in so
they assumed that fifty people had chosen to leave before the votes were all Talley.
The campaign. Volunteers demanded recount
all in all it took about two and a half hours to get
the first round of carcasses to find out which candidates would be Bible? My prediction is that because islands are so passionate about their caucus,
some, though probably happen again next election cycle, but since their foe importance is brought to public consciousness
here, there will then die away to primary system soon, that is from Lauren gesture.
Lauren lower was a great account, your basically like the hundred Thomson chorus
DR stuff? You should know we appreciate that big time
to the imo, nitrates after that and bright the name of the
line. The email is the. I will carcasses, depraved, indicative, very nice.
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Hi everyone? This is the reasoning, Sanchez and Eric Winter, and we have a public has called. He said
yeah the moment. A part of this thing
can I have my own name? Ok, so your name
I'm Eric Winter wow interesting, we, I replied, TAT called he said, a daddy, it's about our conflicting personalities and our differences of opinion about everything guys. It's funny check it out fine
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Transcript generated on 2020-03-06.