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Everything you say, listen to the science of applaud, cast on the eye heart, radio out apple pie casts or wherever you get. Your pod casts hey rebuilt. It's me josh him. For this Select I've chosen our february two thousand nineteen episode, elephants, cohen the best animals, this, be the most enjoyable episode we ve ever made it could be. It could be. I can't they think of any better one right now, so I will say it is for the time being. I hope you enjoy listening to this classic episode as much as chuck and I enjoyed making it welcome to stop. You now a production. Have I heard radio, hey you walk into the park term, just clerk, there's charles,

we took Brian jerry were just feel a wacko ear you. I know why. Why? Because this is the stuff you should know about Maybe the greatest animal walking the planet and I'm including human beings, elephants and big on elephants, love elephants might be Emily spirit, animal she hasn't decided, yet he I can say a hundred percent. It is you miss oh yeah. Why are they have the same spirit? Animal is kinda neat yeah. I know I like that. I didn't know that I didn't know, Yumi was an elephant or she is big time into elephant elephant dust and alright Charles ii, ready for this yes and really quickly, because we love elephants, we want to go on a safari one day. You know have mentioned before yeah, but now I know and we'll get to this later. I was like man I want to. I want to swim with those things.

Don't do it no shouldn't? Do it don't write em now, don't do any of those things where you see people on facebook bragging riding in getting paid by elephants. Don't do it yeah, it's true like that's, not ethical or humane, because all you say it out. There is a wise because two elephants are wild animals are not domesticated, although they display some real the bizarre affectionate behaviour towards humans there it at that can make you think that our domesticated there still wild animals, sir to train them to basically It ensure that they're not ever going to you know stomp a person or something like that. You have to take them as as babies and what's called crushing their spirit and just basically scare em, so bad or beat them physically bright. That's part of the process of crushing their spirit. There are like yeah, beat them, berate them starve them

The legs together, keep him in a pen all to basically teach them that humans are in charge and that they should be scared to death. Of of doing anything untoward towards human, that's how you can ride an elephant or how you can bathed with an elephant, or you we wanted a painting by an elephant like there's elephants that make paintings there's one here in atlanta. Ok, that makes paintings. So we research too bright before we batter, ordered she's equator miami to see if this is okay and it turns out that they basically use the same techniques to to make an elephant do what a human wants it to. You have to be very cruel to them. Usually so there you go, people don't do it. Yellows are weird intro know it was in my craw. Ah obviously it was in yours little bit, but let's talk about elephants, the good stuff

There are three species you probably grew up. Thinking like I did that there is the african elephant in the asian elephant sure thereby knows that by now they have broken down. The african Elam element the elephant into two camps, the bush elephant in the forest elephant, both after and like I said for many many years, and you will still see in a lot of places, just two species, but that is that is not true anymore. No one to three so in the bush elephant in the forest elephant are so closely related that, if they, if they run up,

but against one another, because some of their their habitats, kind of overlap, sure they could reproduce and have babies which no problem whatsoever. But the asian elephant is so distantly related to them, even though they seem, you know, is just another kind of elephant to the elephant that they probably they could conceivably have a kid, and actually one was born in a zoo in the seventies, but he died after, like I think, twelve days of an infection and that they they they probably aren't really supposed to aren't supposed to breed? I guess it's how you'd put program right have offspring? Yes, so we're gonna be talking about all three, not interchange

We will all point out when we're talking about what, but the african bush elephant those are the biggest ones they have the biggest ears or at least larger than the asian elephants and both sexes. For the african bush, elephants are more likely to have tusks and some male asian elephants have tusks but they're, not as prominent. That's where you see the smaller tusks in all three species, have five toes on the front feet, but the african bush elephant has three toes on the rear. Asian elephants have four toes on the rear on each foot. It was a lot of different toes going on while different toes

in the african forest elephant is generally about the same shape as his bush bush friend, but they have straighter tusks because they're going to make sense are going through the forest, so their tusks don't stick way out and get caught on every other tree that their walking by bs, and I thought this is really interesting. The the african forest elephants our so elusive that, like they don't they have no idea how many there are all of the iron. All the ideas their behaviour in the stuff that they do is just assumptions made based on the boy delafield that their related to their that good, like keeping away from humans. I just think that amazing yeah? They have their a little bit smaller than the then their their friends on the savanna, but they have the same tone range meant as the asian elephant right, but I said

so the I never really thought about it, but like a lot of the elephants, when I think of elephants I never realized. I was thinking of two different species, but they really do take the asian elephant in the african bush elephant. They have a lot of differences that you can just very quickly see wish is which cause like the asian elephant has kind of like the rounded dome ahead. They have kind of a hump back and they are a little smaller and then the african bush elephants there very, very big with the big old ears and they have basically was called like a saddle back. It's kind of flat is bright or me Even concave a little bit too yeah and hears is one of the facts of the show, for me is there's like fifty, and he had heard so many but elephants have they have tusk ness like we have handedness they use they're right or their left tusk, more often than the other. if you ever wonder which touch

is the more dominant one look and see which one shorter, because that's the one that gets worn down quicker. I thought that was amazing. Pretty neat I just figured. They were interchangeable, yet nope yep nope, so I like it's really kind of It is stop and put myself into this, like standing like imagine myself, standing next to these elephants for like measurements, for the average you're like what six feet just about pretty give em like a human dollar bill. Know dollar bills like a little about six inches same think: I'm six feet. Okay, so daily lex, is something to be like it's about six feet. Ok, don't you know about the dollar bill will now is that uses a mess device when your short ruler, yeah it's about six inches. What, if you have no cash, but you do have a ruler or you then you're bearded alone. Can you spend a ruler in it and hat shop job? You could conceivably traded. Remember that guy who traded

if he went from paperclip too, like a house trading up, oh yeah, that guy dac I could turn a ruler in cash. in soil bomb share an apartment now in an upstate new york, soy bomb aright. So let's talk about the the size of these ladys in men, because, okay, so everybody imagine me standing next to an elephant, no really drive all this home. Yes right, so an african forest elephant is Josh's height up to about eight feet at the shoulder yeah, okay, yeah. You don't measure from the top of the dome, and I wonder why they do that with animals. That's always the case. Right because they give the animals was local. I want to seem taller, they could just lives. There had very high, have the euro five they're trying to keep a low profile, keep their head. Dahlia. The shoulder its tough to you know like when they're having their kindergarten class picture taken with bright the air

Can bush elephant is tolerance about eight to ten feet: debt, the shoulder that's the biggest one year, forty six tonnes, two to five tonnes on the floor african and then asian is seven to nine feet about three to five short tons and we should say there's a lot of variation in size here, because I think one of these experts said that the the outliers can be as big as twenty five percent ta. or larger overall than the average, which is easily variation gathers. I think the record for in asian elephant and remember there. You know at the shoulder seventy nine feet. It still pretty pretty good size, but the record was eleven and a quarter feet and it's a big elephant I can you imagine this almost to me yeah like me, he standing on my own shoulders, maybe squatted yeah. so little bit at the shoulder

How big that elephant was yeah, then, when you, when you're talking short tons, that's two thousand pounds so like an african bush elephant can get it on average up to twelve thousand pounds. That's a big boy or girl yeah, the boys are a little bit bigger and they live long long time, here's citizen, inspiring and sad facts they can live. Did they do so? the years they found in recorded at least one elephant. They lead to be. Eighty six heads has set the record, which has just amazing, but here's, the saddest thing and if you are a zoo elephant, you live maybe less than half as long, so I have to say,

this the r s p c a in west sussex england and has been they their numbers have been controversial before really. But in this two thousand and eight study they faced, they took forty five hundred african isn't elephants that lived in european zoos over the course of forty five years, and this is what they came up with. So I even in the article. The people were necessarily contesting this data, but I think the way that they explained it was that this was all data, and so I gave you a good idea of how long elephants lived in captivity. You know a few decades ago back before they knew more about keeping them in zoos. Yeah Here's what it says said thirty six years in a national park in kenya, seventeen years in a zoo, but it

to me like, unless I'm reading this wrong, that elephants that work in timber camps, the very strong, so they are still using. Then timber camp stood to Paul wood and trees and things they actually live longer than zoo elephants. Yes, so the timber events in burma. Myanmar are very well taken care of from what I understand like their their considered semi captive and for the last hundred years, or so that the people of Burma have used them to fiscally move huge trees right to pull him out of the forest for like logging in stuff, but there

really well cared for. There's like government veterinarians that do health checks in each elephant has their own log and from what I saw, which just seems mind blowing to me because they're there, you know I'm being held captive in a way to work for humans, and so just based on. You know our our track record of using animals like that. I I it's just weird to me that they would be very well taken care of, but they are in their concern, semi captive because at night they are allowed to this kind of wander around and go free in the forests and they interact with wild asian elephants and that's how they actually reproduce they're they're, not like there's no kind of reproductive oversight is just go wild, you know and- and they apparently

live very long because they are very well taken care of yeah and here's have a little factoid for you when they get pregnant in those working camps. They get maternity leave for about a year. Yes, so a couple of more quick facts, then we'll take a break and little bb elephants are cared for by their mothers until they are anywhere between thirteen and twenty years old. So it's almost like well, not quite, but it's almost like the human experience a little bit. You know somewhere in there. I doubt if you're your thirteen year old off, but here the terrible, terrible baby. Let's aids, that you know, thirteen to twenty would say that, eighteen years it's about like a high school age, and that's also when they reach sexual maturity, takes about twenty to twenty two months of gestation, which is the longest longest gestation. Opium

it of any animal or I'm sorry, any mammal and a little bb elephant weighs between one hundred and fifty and two hundred and fifty pounds. That's pretty cute, so we take a break. Yes, alright, more poundage, facts right after this, its nineteen sixty seven, the cold war and Joseph Stalin's daughters deadline of the princess of the kremlin. just fled mother russia, her new home, a place where the roads are paved with gold and people, bake, apple, pies, out of baseballs and freedom, a place

called america. That story alone would be worthy of a podcast, but this one that laws that laana is about. What comes next and it's crazy, a story. I've ever heard. It has kgb agents, mystics, Anne frank, lloyd, right, commune, destiny, immortality and unbreakable cycles. Weird sex duff, weird money, stuff, weird dances. Three old does to settle on us and one neurotic gate playwright who won't shut up about it. All guess which one I am listen to such a lot of stuff. on the eye, her radio apple podcast wherever you get your podcast inside the box. I'm journalist anna whiten. In my podcast city of the rails, I plunged into the dark world of america's railways, searching for my dad who really

who ran off to hop train like tat, train, we're gonna end up job. following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society off the grid and on the edge. I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom, this community, no one hundred stance who reach really are the rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history and the thing we call the american dream. it's the last vestige of american freedom. Everything about it is extreme here either going to die or you You have this incredible river and really understand who you are come with me to find out what ways for us in the city else, listen to city the rails and the I hide media hype, apple pie cas wherever you get. Your pike, ass or city of the rail start come in nineteen. Eighty cocaine was captivating and corrupt.

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The chuck, I just think it's adorable, that both of our wives got us into elephants, were going to have to take a safari together. We should do that, although that's very dangerous, like we don't fly too. You know tennessee together and I know when I hear that the plane or go down in the bud gas will be over. I guess we get trade off then it would be pretty amazing story, though, like the pod guess, go down in history, if you and I were eaten by tigers, buchanan maybe a heck of a way to go emily and now you make it has taken over the year and it would just I'll be about animals. They should do something together. Some time you know you like, I like they should read listener Neither something like that or or are they just start their own chokehold stuff? You should know about her husband's dago people get up that. Could I don't know if we

wait. No, we would not they'd be like you'd think they're. So great. Let us tell you about this schlub, no, no! No! No! No! These pots is so there should be a ding sound, because guineas put on every show. From now on. Alright elephants eat one hundred to six hundred pounds of food in a day and drink between sixteen and forty gallons of utter, say they again brother, a hundred to six hundred pounds of food. In a day, and they are eating, and I love this. They basically spend their day when their awake fourteen sixteen hours a day, just sort of looking to eat and drink yeah, which is its thinks like if you think about it. The reason why they have to eat that much is not because they are so big, but because, while it is in part, but mostly because their herbivores and their digestive system is ridiculously inefficient here like

if elephants are as intelligent as they appear to be, and probably even more than they appear to be once we start to like learn more about them. I think all it's going to do is just provide it as cascading series of woes and they like, if they didn't, have to spend so much of their time. Looking for food What would they be doing? Maybe they would learn to pain on their own. Maybe so the reason why there there they eat so much again is because they don't. I just a lot of that food, and so oh undigested serve comes out as poop in such frequency that the EU can actually make paper out of it. There's elephant poop paper people use it. Then they get the fibre out of the elephant poop to make paper with our

that's how how one digested so much of their food is yeah. They eat a like. You said they are herbivores, so they all kinds of plants and they love fruit. I imagine that's like the sweet, sweet nectar sure when compared to you know like dry, bamboo and and they they can study their poop and learn a lot from their poop, just like most animals or elephants to study their own poop. What how do you know? Why Now, of course, I had to study it and they can. They can learn a lot by. You know because, like you said, those african force elephants there very lucid in the forest and you can't find them, but you can earn their poop everywhere You can tell their anus size from their proof size, which sounds hillel isn't it is by. The EU also can I like the age and the general size of the elephant basin. There ain't size which you find basin their poop size push. You can make a bang in

proud of it to share their range. The african bush elephants have a very wide range across africa, south of the sahara desert and the forest Elephants are in rain. Forests does the name near the. It is a sort of around cameroon is whether largely centred as far as asian they're, all over southeast asia. They have some in china, even but india is really where you're going to find the most asian elephants and see thailand, indonesia, sumatra, sri lanka. They each have more than one thousand, and we already talked about Burma a little bit. They have the second largest total population worldwide. I guess, except for india, they have the the largest captive population, though of at least five thousand, all working in the

government timber camps, which again I'm just I'm sure somebody's, get a ride and be like. I don't really know, they're not taken very well care of, but I didn't see anything like that which I'm just astounded by I don't know if that's coming across or not, but I'm really a founded yeah and if you will listen to our episode, I guess it's either from last week or it will be next week and then I'm predicting the future about elephants swimming in the which one was that lacheneur loch ness. They do the swam, and they are very floaty there very buoyant they. They won't you're not gonna, find an elephant drowned in the water. They can not only swam, but if they get tired, they can just float.

Bob yeah they can bob in the water and they are apparently in elephant, has been recorded as swimming forty, eight kilometers thirty miles pretty amazing and six hours at a stretch. Yeah, that's pretty nuts and baby elephants. One of the one of the greatest things you can do is sit around and watch baby elephants splashing in the kiddie pools on youtube. Yeah. They love it. They love to swim, yeah. Let's talk about the trunk, because when you see an elephant- and you watch this if you'd like really study an elephant for awhile, you look at that trunk. It's it's! It's amazing. It looks like a completely separate,

living thing almost. Sometimes it would yeah, but it's a nose. It's basically their upper lip and their nose combined together in it's elongated form yeah. But when they, you know you're watching often a lot of times, they're just standing still, but this trunk is doing so many crazy. Looking photos, I see what you mean. Yeah just looks like it's on, like it's own animal, almost like the thing from the Addams family, disembodied hand, that's exactly what I was thinking or the the alien hand syndrome guy from our short lived tv show right right. Basically, the same thing right exactly and one of the big theories is, is that trunk and this makes a lot of to me. Evolutionarily speaking, is that trunk developed as compensation. Basically, I can reach things higher without him,

ro or I can get things on the ground without having a crouched down and put my head on the ground, which makes me, though, it very vulnerable to attack right. So I had this big long extended knows can go, get stuff on the ground or up above me, and I can still sort to be safe. Yes, okay, so it's a knows that you can use it good things with including water. Apparently it holds up to two gallons of water in the trunk just in the trunk, and but it's also really and dexterous. I guess yeah It has a hundred thousand muscles in both fast twitch and slow twitch. So of I've. Read that an error. think, can pull a limb off of a tree with its trunk or pluck a blade of grass out of the ground like its eight ache, and it can do it all. Basically, it can deal cards whatever, but you shouldn t training elephant to deal cards now, just put the cards down and walk away yet and if it happen,

It happens. That is, that is the motto of dealing with elephant. end? Initially, you know of evolution might have said: hey use grey. Things to drink water out of but like we said and will continue to him in his home. Elephants are super smart, so they said: hey, I've got this really long. Fifth arm debt has two hundred thousand muscles in it, so I can get food and I conveyed myself and I can pick up dust and mud and put it all over my body. If I don't want to get sunburned or if I want to have a sort of lo fi insect repellent or I can commune gate with my buddy over there with my trunk yeah there's a lot of stuff. They do at their trunk that were starting to figure out. There's a group called elephant voices and they have an elephant gestures database based on deck.

it's a studying, elephants, up, close yeah and they have a really complex and intricate and basically a sign language that includes more than just their trunk by their trunk plays a big role in it to the others. One example on this article flop gone head, flew, and that is an elephant basically raising the the head vertically and then flipping their trust really high up in the air and let net pop down on their head. That is a very specific play, based gesture kind of a joyful play, hair like if you see now of doing that are having a good time gathered the elephant gestures database names of the different things the gestures sound like they were all written by now, a flop, trunk godhead mystic and make her I've got another

after the package for your very great baby elephants suck their trunks like human babies, circular thumb, who had always I mean forget about it, man, I can't even what the stuff I know and that in turn, my back he's, gonna ruin it all with a new dumbo movie. Oh the live action or you know, he's yeah. I think it's live action cg. I. Why he's going to ruin it serious poor tim Burton he's the ruin her of things you ruined everything you elephants all elephants originated in africa and spread throughout the world from their including north America, across like everything else across a bearing straight land bridge our iceberg,

just depending on when it was and then all the way into south america from their gather. You can make a pretty strong case that they drew humans into north america because they migrated first and humans probably followed them as hunters over like millions of years later, oh yeah so, and the this is weird. So the the mammoth and the elephant share a common ancestor, their most recent common ancestors, six million years in the past year, which, is the elephants. A mammoth coexisted at the same time, The gulf have been around a really long. Time is just a guess what, moved out of africa and be and asia. Up into you, know the russian steps in siberia and across the land bridge and then back down in the north, american and eventually south america. They took out like many different

forms, but the woolly mammoth is the one you typically think up church there were elephants at this in time there were also mammoths, and then there are other it a mammoth besides the woolly mammoth, which we think we did a woolly mammoth episode. We did do a woolly mammoth episode, merit if you say so, we did and they were all over. There is also a type of rum mammoth, not even a mammoth. There was just a different type of elephant call, a gasp of fear that was in south america, and if you get a gasp of fear. I think it is a little bigger than the elephants today, but it just looks like an elephant and dumb. They used to hunt them down in south america and hunted em to extinction. They think possibly a combination of that and climate change, but you don't think of elephants in and the americas, but there definitely worth some here for a very long time. The climate change can't be real josh, because it's not-

as weak, right well, yeah exactly I mean just imagine that it had and has no it, and we would all know that climate change is real, so There is a or was rather a naturalist in the eighteenth century. France name- and this is a great man you wanna say it actually you're a french expert. Oh, I wasn't expecting george Louis Leclerc. The comte de buffon was that his title is, though, that means yeah he's the count of four bouffant okay, which I'd be like. Can I get another count? Chip instead of bouffant? What's wrong with bouffant it's so so it's okay! It's it's a a kind of a garish word. You know what I'm saying sure sounds like bouffant. Yeah once a profound hairdo these days. Nobody, nobody except to be fifty tooth. It may be that, lady from the old, the modulation,

was the name of that state house. The local stakeholders, outback stakes now, what's the other one longhorns, Do you remember the heads of the nineties with the lady with the blue fought now aren't stakes ear. You do I don't what was her deal? She was just like a protein hipster lady really was yeah. I was on the the longhorn commercials very interesting may now I could go for a stake. Yeah me too, all right. So where were we write the eighteenth century, a century naturalist? He. Road allied about natural history and he loved the elephant, and he was really act out by the intelligence of. Funny, the idea has been like that. I- and I am knocked out by that- is far out man. He was knocked out by the brain and the intelligence of the elephant right, and he said it approach

is near to man and understanding as much at least as matter can approach to mind, which I I understood, the first half of it. I think in eighteenth century speak. That means these dudes are really smart, bright and I mean like he wasn't just you know, making stuff up here like this. Is he was onto something because elephants are extremely intelligent from what we can tell and again we're just learning more and more about him in as we learn more about it. Mr, like study, the way that they interact with one another and how they interact with us. We're like by these are some of the sharpest animals on the planet yeah. They have personalities. Each elephant has its own personality and Now you ve heard of an elephant, not forgetting they. They do have a great memory and great recognition ability and this story, everyone, a love story kind of the best thing ever in ninety. Ninety, nine, at a sanctuary in tennessee

there was a resident elephant named jenny. They introduced in lady name, shirley an asian elephant, and they went berserk for another: they were chicken each other out. They were slapping trunks. really animated they described it. Is you euphoria, bellowing and then jenny starts bellowing and they said that never expect Anything that intense without it being aggression. They did so low digging and it turns out that twenty three years earlier for just a few months: jenny and surely were in the same circus together and they saw each other twenty three. Years later and word like girl. What are you doing? What you been up to, where I think, is cool about as story, in addition to the fact that They remembered each other after twenty three years, but that also says so much about them

we were able to form a bond yeah like that. Just a few months in just a few months yeah, I think this is a tremendous amount about elephants in elephant society. What a story love it yep so because they have these kind of relationships with one another they have really complex and as inputs a very rich and societies and families and groups that they are in been their there and their social networks a very rich and complex rape, the ethical and one of the ways ivy league like. I didn't realize this, but I came across this in researching this. Article apparently like, if you see it a bunch of deer hanging around or some birds. Fine together there not like buddies, are free, and they don't know one from another. Typically, stop don't say that but I mean I hadn't really thought about that before I always just take it back.

The sooner the least, they were sure he knew each other by smell or something like that. Bear from what I saw I can't remember where I saw, but they were. They were saying like as atypical for animals to recognise one another as individuals, yeah and the elephants definitely do and as as evidenced by that story, but that kind of lens evidence of the idea that finns are self aware, which is a growing awareness among humans. The elephants seem to be self aware, and one way we test animals to see if they're self aware is called the mirror test, which is kind of a Thirdly, we can improve on it, but it does for sure it does suggests that the there is the possibility that the the animal sees itself as an individual. Yes, This was developed by Gordon Gallop, junior nineteen. Seventy said. I definitely think there an update that we need here really need this. The two point, oh version,

They did they just a lot of animals. Apes, great apes, dolphins, orchids and magpies have passed this test along with one asian elephant, name happy what they do. Is they give me? they take the animal and put a red mark, an paint, this red mark and lets say on their face, something that they can't see without a mirror hold up the mere and if the animal looks at the mere and then doesn't like like em. If they did this to me, I would my group at the mirror and smash Amir. She should issue, but if the animal doesn't do that and actually touch their own face, then they undergo and that their seeing themselves, and not some other weird animal across from them right. They see these. They realise that their seeing their reflection in their show self whereas if they, if they laugh at how silly they look than that really show self awareness, maybe even self consciousness in a year and it takes

human children a couple of years to pass this test. We should say: yes did you, I is so there's, apparently not all the great apes pass the test that gorillas, don't, which is weird, that they think that possibly gorillas, don't because making eye contact in the gorilla world is such a degree. I serve act that they, they just don't look at themselves in the mirror and see that they have that mark on their face. That's what they think yeah, and this does and you know this isn't like we said it's pretty low fi. It's not some. You can't say this is proof that they are self aware and sentient, but it's a pretty cool test. It is plus also dogs don't pass it, which automatically means that there is a failure of the test because momo herself crews, they all adam all dogs or self aware in smart imperfect in every way, and they also do point out with dogs like their their best stir the way they see

world is through their nose. So maybe this isn't the best test for them right, so they could do herbs assent version. Maybe right, I wonder how you do it. I've been trying to figure it out for days with mama wages my head a yell, eventually experiment, imo and at what there is another test that they use a kind of show self awareness in the idea of the visual identity and that's the third party relationships yet is pretty cool, so they I guess they. It says they accident. We drive a jeep in between an elephant and her her offspring, your baby, and that well if it might not notice kisses busy doing something else, but if another elephant trump to the mom elephant, to say, hey, there's a jeep between you and your baby. There.

elephant is indicating that its aware that that mom and that baby are related, that they have a relationship that has nothing to do necessarily with that third elephant, who warned the mom here: that's not supposed to exist among and and non sentient beings right and by the way. If all this talk about sentence in self awareness among animals is flowing your boat, we did in two parts. he's on animal rights that touched on this heavily yeah. That's right! Look because there was a famous case where they were trying to do person heard in human rights for cheap right, the non human rights project. They moved on Two elephants, including the elephant, happy that pass the mere test and right now the happy in the Bronx zoo.

And then on human rights projects. Position is basically like it. Elephants range is like, but at least a hundred times what they exhibit that happy lives in It's like an acre yet in their range, is so why that in a single day, happy in africa would probably walk about a hundred acres but happy as an acre and happy is a a ascension being and deserves better and so they're trying to spring her by making her in big by bestowing person hood through the courts. And actually gonna habeas corpus issued, which he only do there for humans and then the only other time it's as happened with chimps, and there is a non human rights project its up in the air. But did the judge basically said? Hey you guys,

to show whether or not you're unlawfully imprisoning an being a person. Basically yeah, that's where it stands. We now I will let's take a break and contemplate that for a couple of hours and then well dressed herself off, come back and talk a little bit about the. prince between male and female elephants and more about the social component right after this, its nineteen sixty seven, the cold war and Joseph Stalin's daughters deadline of the princess of the kremlin, just fled mother russia, her new home, a place where the roads are paved with gold and people, big apple, pies out a baseball's and freedom a place

called america. That story alone would be worthy of a podcast, but this one that laws that laana is about. What comes next and it's crazy, a story. I've ever heard. It has kgb agents, mistakes and a frank, lloyd, right, commune destiny, immortality and unbreakable cycles weird sex, stuff, weird money, stuff, weird dances, three august to settle on us and wonder rada, gay playwright who won't shut up about it. All guess which one I am listen to steady lawlessness, wanna on the eye, her radioactive apple podcast, wherever you get your podcast inside the box, I'm journalist anna whiten in my podcast city of the rails, I plunged into the dark world of america's railways, searching for my daughter,

who ran after half train like tat, train we're gonna end up job Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society off the grid and on the edge I was in love with the lifestyle and the freedom this community. No one hundred stance who we are really are the rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history and the thing we call the american dream: It's the last vestige of american freedom. Everything about it is extreme you're they're going to die or You can have this incredible river and really understand who you are come with me to find out what ways for us in the city else, listen, the city, the rails and the. I hide media hype. Apple pie cas wherever you get your pike, ass or city of the rail start come in nineteen. Eighty cocaine was captivating and corrupt.

In miami loyally had become the load of capital of united states. I would like, and millions of dollars categorized as law, while unleashing a wave of violence. My god tat, I walk into the devil, stand the car failed is killed, I remind me of his how they start pulling out pictures of quickly Williams body taken up the everglades. World orbiting around a mysterious man with a controversial claim. Drug pilot. the name of the more chester did you ever run into the thing with brass. Until I turned over that low to go ooh mom the would claim he did it all for the cia pulling money into a sprawling federal investigation. So clay wasn't the only person who was murdered by a long shot. I'm lauren bright pacheco join me for murder in miami listen to murder in miami. Only I hurt radioactive apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast

This is fine. When you talk about the male and female elephants, this whole episode find it. If it so males leave when their young teenagers they leave earlier than the little lady stew they set off on their own. They might move from grouped group. They may join up with another family, but by and they they usually get around and live alone, but they do. They do form groups when they need to its knees, permanent? You know, a good change and it is a static situation. I'm kind of like going between different groups in different groups of males getting other, but when they do get together, the males there is a definite hierarchy involved. Seniority it's size and age in that iraqi is really important to

maintain order when it comes to like who gets the water first and stuff. Like that right or where, where which way, we're gonna walk to go, find water, or something like that. There has to be somebody in charge but supposedly win when there plenty of water in airbus, girls. they need or whatever that their hierarchy can break down pretty easily but also informally not liking. It breaks down and like society just crumbles among this group of males and it breaks down, because it's not necessary, which is kind of neat and apparently the the groups of males that hang out together are are likened to a group of like old drinking buddies Rowdy yeah he's, gonna, funny rough housing and all that kind of stuff

males, occasionally will go through something it's kind of like being in heat. It sounds like a cold, must well wilder m. U s t h, and this is when they just their testosterone, goes through the roof and they are like. I need to mate. Like yesterday I got the edge. I got a severe it. and I can't graduate my task because their fixed rough housing with my drinking bodies is in helping. None of that is helping and when they're going through. This must face the facts: we, like all the other male elephants, recognise this and say: hey freddy, have terrorists, as you can tell guises he's. He's really feel in it. So why don't we let him drink first, and why don't we just cannot go where he wants to go right now. He threw his leave

You get a trail of urine everywhere, there's a literal, physical warning to the rest of us to stay back yeah and a little cent for for ladies hey well well. Well, let me follow this trail and see where it goes. It smells like sex panther, a hundred percent of the time. What is it? it, has no works half the time half the time it works. One hundred percent of the time I don't remember. I should know that we both should chuck. We both just failed, speak tech. Literally whoa and Occasionally- and this is kind of what I've seen as the only times when elephants really get aggressive with one another, but if it gets pretty extreme and and these male elephants the there's a couple of them going through moss

they will, they will go at it too and to get the lady they will gore each other and and it you know, no one wants to talk about that cause. It's everyone wants to think elephants are always getting along, but sometimes when there's a couple of dudes around that are both super rubbed up. They they can get in a fight over a lady to the death, sometimes yeah and I think you kind of said it, but males mostly live on their own and they do form these groups and they do have free friendships and bonds with other males, but they are very frequently found like traveling by themselves, probably to avoid stuff like that. But if you're bummed out by the fact that elephants will kill other elephants to to have access to females, you can take heart in that the elephants aren't territorial at all. They don't have territory and when different groups of elephants, whether it's males and have groups of females or different groups of them have the same sex,

Whatever you just have a bunch of different groups of elephants coming together in the same place, they basically have a party a jamboree to like, if it's a body of water or a place where there's a lot of fruit or some reason for a bunch of ls, you don't know one another get together. It's not only a party, but at that party you can have like surely in whose it journeys and jenny's is going. Oh, my god, I haven't seen you in twelve years. Yeah. What are you up to? As at your little baby? It's the sweetest thing. they like they get really excited when they see old friends, they'll do like pirouettes wet p poop. Sometimes they p improve out of it. I met to see one another. This is a door yeah and is kind of lone wolf. Is the males can be the theme Elsa really. This is when you really like get the heart warm going. Earthworm part warm

not all lobbyists- will give you heart or I'm thinking about. This is when it can warm your heart because females they lived very much and organise an, in this way they live in family groups. There are mother, sometimes three generations altogether and their little puffs and their eyes. And their moms and grandma there might be up to thirty of them together with all their, heads when they're all lead, which is usually the this one, but not always, but they are led by matriarch in the matriarch. Is the one that's like what's good this way, not because I just him older and smarter, but I actually have experience that I can remember right that will help lead us to safety yeah, which is pretty spectacular. It's another thing. That's that's remarkable about elephants is that the matriarchs lead by experience there is this, this drought in tanzania and nineteen, ninety three and

the different herds led by matriarch. They were old enough to remember the last drought, acting like a nineteen. Fifty eight nineteen sixty one, the ones that had lived through, that or is younger younger elephants. They remembered how heard survived, and so their herd was likely to survive that drought, then, herds that were led by younger matriarchs that hadn't lived through that previous drought. So they remember this stuff and they they lead their their herds. Based on this past experience and wisdom that they gained from It- let's just say it through from wisdom- led by wisdom. They do, and some patriarchs are very confident they are very, We're very vigilant, though, and little more nervous and depends on who your matriarch is some maternal, and you know what name they sing, sing, for everyone to go there like well, let's wait because janis is little path, is still bathing

those are our out. Some of them are more like then now come on, get get out, or where we're going we're leaving now c'mon janice, I'm going with, or without you geniuses liquid, like burma, and then there together also for re practical reason, I'm late. They help each other out. They baby sit for one another god's sake. I love that They baby said for each other Josh. I know they it like the mom can go off and forage for food fur pub and know that the public is being watched by some of her heard members near her family members is what they're called trite if matriarch dies there is a little short time where they're like aright, whose his his next who's gonna step up. They have ranked choice, voting

how advanced they ever, thereby more advanced than every state in the union. Besides may decides mean a lot of times like we said, is the old. remaining female like she would be next up, but sometimes it is nonsense. As it is the matriarchs daughter, and she will just assume the position of mom of her mother yet as matriarch yeah kind of like she that, like uh, oh, what is that called? Where, were you like become king or queen, because your father mother was king or queen. I care what it's called the great yeah, basically that that that can make that exists in the elephant society. If that that elephant happens to be like the suited for the job, and if there is an issue

There is a dispute, whereas some elephants are like. Actually, I don't think she's ready. I am not going to follow her. I want to follow. Janis engender severely far out. That's it the agendas in the other elephants they want to follow her. They go off on their own failures, yo battle, there's no! There's no fight to the death over dominance. At this late. I will see later and then they may see each other later at that clearing or at that watering hole and be just the happy as pie to see one another and it may also even travel together, but just at a much greater distance, but we think communicating still. I warn one another and kind of basically keep up the same pace, but they just keep their distance more and they they'll growl at one or the other they'll trumpet and they'll grunt. They will, they will stomp their feet or they will flick their ears that will use their trunks and they were angled their heads. Tusks and switch their tails. These are all communications

and while they were stomping and while they do have those big sturdy feet, they're also really sensitive yeah. So if an elephant is just standing still, it can feel the vibrations in the ground of something far away or someone calling them from far away through through the ground through feet like, though, the rumbling through the ground of elephant growing like miles away near, and they also that trunk we I forgot to mention it. They have a really sensitive sense of smell. So Basically, they can smell water up to twelve miles away. How they even those water smell right. They ve been shown to smell storms up till a hundred and fifty miles away. Air amazing, pretty amazing. I dont know if we got this across or not elephants- are pretty amazing- do that with dollar animal, but guess I know I love it. you one about like canada. What's a boring animal, that's not so impressive, see, see they're all grow.

Yeah. I really can't think of a boring animal life, there's something so anything about every animal. Here I was gonna say frogs, who has like honour frogs turn out to be pretty fascinating. Frogs are the best now elephants are the best, there's this one researcher that firmly believes it elephants have a sense of humour, and she said this use recalling how they play and they would charge her car and she thought they were tripping and falling in tuscany. round and they kept doing it and she was like now. I know what they're doing now they're they're pratt following little. They are tending to fall in front of the car and having a good time doing it. Yeah like they, intended they were charging her car on in the sanctuary and were like oh and then they they trip right before it. It happened enough times as she realized that they were. They were joking yeah, some amazing. I love it.

due to what else. Well, this is you know, dissatisfied because everyone knows that elephants, mourn, we've all seen the videos- and it is true, I think grief. Episode had told the story of domini the elephant, who basically died of a broken heart from grief, dont retail, that but they varied famously grieve. There will be extended morning periods for groups of elephants, there are grieving rituals over corpses and they also suffer ptsd if they witness violent. So if they see a poacher, killin detests canal, if it they will have literal ptsd and stress sentence. So one thing I saw it was like that ptsd, as there is talk to compare it to human pete race,

but that there are like real, pronounced effects on them, usually related distress, but also apparently related to having been brought up in their society, so that when they, when they like it's like an orphan that survives a calling and is raised like outside of elephant society. It's just not quite right when you compare it to an elephant that was raised by elephants, you know throughout its right to to maturity and that they frequently call it things like ptsd or things like that. But it's a it's almost it's own thing right, but again, if you did that to a deer or a bird or something it's not going to have the same effect it raised it's it's not a he's, say it, but it doesn't appear to be smart enough to suffer psychological damage.

which maybe that's good from a traumatic experience. Yeah I mean don't feel sorry for the deer, probably quite glad you should still feel sorry for the deer for what we do to dear no well, that's a whole nother. It's a whole other story about these little things that go on the front of my car, that possibly keep dear away, but if they work, I see him the giant hands that clap and all the way here, I don't even know how this thing works in a very well may not work at all, but the way put it to Emily. I was like, unless these actually attract dear, then it's worth like the five dollars that cost. That's just give it a shot. Do you remember those those hats, that like having a horrid, glad you're dead

add one of those generally yeah man did, he ever had the hat with the to know the beers on both sides. He wasn't quite cool enough for that one, but he was cool enough for the clapping hands. Okay, I think that's the opposite of cool, actually think so too. The herbal Elvis So we we mentioned before about how to interact with elephants in the the only way that we found to interact with elephants ethically, is, if you go on an ethical safari and observe them from afar through your binoculars or you know there if you're in the car- and you can see them great. But if you see something, that's The ties as an elephant sanctuary say something yemen sanctuary. There is no law that dictates you can use that word and when travellers here that word, they think o will this means this is where elephants go to be taken care of, because it's a sanctuary, I see a threat.

You're on the sign right. It's not necessarily what that means that elephant that you rider bathed in the pool with they have been had its spirit crushed by being kept in that tiny pen and starved and beaten for weeks at a time this founder of the uk group called action for elephants uk. Maria marksman? She basically says any any place. The advertisers, unnatural behaviour just stay away from yeah, because they're not like the elephant, shouldn't, be doing tricks for human rights, and that includes like bathing with the elephants, which does sound, awesome and elephants do bay than they love to swim in frolic, but the big problem with that is that it It ended in a sanctuary where that's how you get the people to come. That means you have to keep the elephant in the water all day and let people climb all over it all day. That's just

genuinely unnatural, it's unnatural for a human to ride, an elephant like he just there. It's really easy to step back once you think in the broad term of unnatural behavior. All of this all the starts to to become quite clear. You know what you should and shouldn't do with an elephant or or you know, participate in with an elephant and instead just let it do it's elephant thing and observe it from afar and appreciate it from afar. Yasar video the day, though the black lab that was best friends with an elephant. I didn't see that one. He noticed that on one another background of this elephant, but this black lab was climbing all over it and jumping off in the water and they they look like they were having a good time. It's unnatural that dog should be punished for doing what was natural, but it wasn't a human. It was a dog and lab.

they're, great they're, pretty great do as far as their their threats. Obviously, all three species are in decline. Its super sad, their range, which is a great range like yours, I about out, is been encumbered upon by humans for centuries in thousands, years even there they just don't, have as much room thanks to people and deforestation and fences and roads and oil pipelines and things, and then there's the poaching problem of killing elephants for their tusks and now their skin. That's a new thing is just terrific to think about yeah brand new. As of two thousand thirteen, some, I believe a chinese entrepreneurs hey, you know, be cool, is if I started the trend for beads jewelry made out of elephant skin. Let me do that. and now all of a sudden, the

Number of elephants that are killed for their skin just jumped in Burma just over the border from China from ten a year in two thousand and twelve to sixty one in two thousand and six Seen in aid already, their skin had already been used in traditional chinese medicine to cure guessed right, as in all sectors and regrow skin, allegedly which accounts for that ten and two thousand twelve. But apparently the jewelry really cause this jump over the last few years, yet china looks like they have granted licences to import at least thirty five elephants force skinning with alaska the years so there's just awful. It really is a great weight in the show. The there is. I mean they're, not indeed from what I understand. I think they're listed as vulnerable by well wildlife foundation, but they their numbers have gone down dramatically in nineteen

Thirty, there were ten million wild elephants in africa, wow there's four hundred and fifteen thousand today she's then, and just in a decade I believe in the two thousands they they dropped by one hundred and eleven thousand in just one decade, and and in some places I mean most of it's poaching and some countries still have like its legal, the trade in ivory, south africa zombie, way: botswana, namibia, and as wide teeny, which you you may know and love formerly swaziland, as is legal to trade in elephant ivory. In the u s: the uk, japan and thailand, its legal to trade and antique elephant ivory. That was, you know, brought into market before they start they enacted laws against it. But that's that's pretty much the biggest threat and then also, like you, said their habitat encroachment.

You build a pipeline. The elephants just don't step over pipelines there like okay well, are arranges, got cut in half and again the range is enormous, naked african bush elephant, their home range is like to almost three million acres near their walk, hundreds of acres in a single day so I mean even keeping one in the zoo, even if your keeping alive, even if you keep it alive for awhile, like you're, really robbing it of its experience, even in a large saying, two. Are you still robbing it of a lot of it's experience too? It's basically like we, we we need to preserve and sustain their home ranges is really the the best way to to to keep them around yeah. It's like the whale shark. It's like you're used to the ocean. How about this large pool exactly. I got a real problem with that. Yeah, that's another episode. We did our zoo's good or bad for animals yeah man that was that was a good one. I got one last thing

so you remember that that thing that went around was like on twitter for awhile. It was an elephant, see humans and think we're cute the way that we see puppies and think they're cute. Now I don't remember them. Oh, it was huge massive totally made up alright. Well, I'm glad I didn't see it yep, okay! Well, I guess that's it. Thanks for bursting that bubble. I couldn't just let that stand now, of course so yeah there's a good snowplow article about that were taken out, but that doesn't mean that they don't actually think we're. Cute is just never improvement. How that, if you I know more about elephants, go learn more about elephants are definitely worse things. You can do it through time and since I said that its listener male time,

I'm going to call this a bit of a mayor culpa on our central park episode when we spoke about Robert Moses yeah. I don't remember like saying this: guy was the best thing ever or anything, but there was darker history, there that we did not know about, and we like to correct that. Yes, we heard from a few people, he said, and this is from a joke kennedy. He said: if you Some deeper research on Robert Moses you'll discover the troubling and true effect he had and continues to have on the racial and socio economic segregation entrenched in our cities. I won't flood your email with a book length argument, but many books and papers have been written on the topic. Many of the mentioning robert Moses specifically, and I would ask that you take it. Four dive into this particular character, if nothing else and for your own opinions and views of his affect on our country and racial tensions that persists throughout I've. Never

into a podcast or radio show or website of any kind really. But I thought this is important to point out, because it's all too common that people who have committed heinous lie. Racist and hateful acts in this history of our country are excused on the basis being a product of their times or having done good elsewhere or whatever other excuse is propped up to protect their character and listen guys. I've listened to enough of your shows to know that you are smart guys. The broad educated worldviews seem like your morally good people, some not suggesting anything other than a little more research on this specific character. Just seen over yourselves thanks for the show, guys in your endless hours of entertainment and education, a truly enjoy them. That is Joe Kennedy and we heard from other people. We appreciate you bring him at the light for sure thanks jo appreciate and everybody rode into say, he's actually a villain, yeah yeah, we just did I

actually I've heard about him before separately. I didn't connect the two and realise that that was the same guy. We dropped the balls. Now we're try to better everybody. Ok, well. If you want to get in touch with us to tell us how we can do better, we always lead to improved, so do that do nicely, would do it go onto our website stuff. You should know dot com and check out our social links there, and you can send us an email to stuff podcast how stuff works dot com stuff, you should know, is a production of iheart radio for more powers It's my heart radio visit that I hurt radioactive apple, huh, wherever you listen to your favorite- shows.

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