A pair of old timey fossil hunters had a rootin’ tootin’ rivalry that spilled from academic journals into the American Wild West - where fossils were dynamited and employees turned double agent. Learn about the two-fisted origins of American paleontology.
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Hey everybody, its Josh and Chuck, and were coming to see you guys some of you, some cities, just listen up. That's right because
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welcome to step. You should now production of Iheart radios have snuff work work under the podcast unjust, Lord Canoes, Charles De Beechwood, Brian cheer you over there
there was a limp, limp laughed
guy way. Better lives are
I got a little dinosaur cattle neanderthal in me. I earned from twenty three me near, but despite my dinosaur here
did. I was never big time into dinosaurs- is give her. You know it's not like a bits astounding chuck
similar. We were children
the only real answers I didn't smoke when I was seven years old fourteen, because the right old
before I get started smoking, so it wasn't like
it was the same with your like. I had anything against dinosaurs or kids, who, like dinosaurs
so they're kind of cool- and I had some like like figurines here there, but there wasn't
Things like I was nerdy about in any way, shape or form
yeah I mean I think there was there's a certain movie that really really got kids
dinosaurs, the last world. No various pillars day off
in their movie came out. You know what I was older. Yeah thing here goes
men brought here. That was, if you like, I was in college, though
wanna, say ears like ninety two tonight
for one of those years. Yet I would guess, but kids these days are and is not just my kid, but I see lots of kids in her age group that are obsessed with dinosaurs yeah. I think that's cool. I quoted cool thing to be obsessive. They go to reach as you so much stuff. You know about the deep past about
Lucian about you know: walking lizard bird creature, you know there's a lot, there's a lot to learn from like being interested in dinosaurs. That's very cool thing, be interested about death and extinction. Sure rotting facilitation I'll get stuff right, but that the whole
interest, including the interest that was around when we were kids. It's kind of passes by, but definitely you know the the interesting dinosaurs
They gave rise to the idea of Michael
create an even writing Jurassic Park in Steven Spielberg, even making it into a movie, then
in dinosaurs. In America you can actually traced back to almost a specific winter in a specific place in the nineteenth century. In the winter of eighteen,
seventy seven in particular- and it was the result of a vicious- mean spirited
de rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind of sparked America's interest in
resource I mean it feels varied Tesla who's, the other guy,
where was his name Marconi? Maybe air fares fewer. Yet it is.
Really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris Bueller rivalry. Ferris
but one thing is clear: in the current wars which, by the way that movies coming out of using the trailer about hours, no who place who,
You know I can't remember now, but I saw the other day and it looks, it looks pretty good Nicholas Cage plays both Roth.
It would be foolish food, Ac Deasey, like that's two hours there right there,
she's gonna be a movie or there was going to be a movie about well we're about to talk about today. Did you know that, and now a kind of wondered though yeah it was scheduled for production, Steve Corral was gonna play cope. How and
James Candle Fini was gonna play Marsh and James gained,
he died. Unexpectedly in the productions is got Kai bashed and they also found out that the title the bone WAR said
been taken by EVA Adult Phonography, we're so on the same page
returns. Is children no interest
Jurassic Park or any dinosaurs, but we think the names a porno films is hilarious. There are big interests
So I thought I was running a week. We commissioned this piece for for the grab, stir and he's a big dinosaur guy and he was somewhat shamed. He was like a descend. He said to her three times a Coquette believe it know about these cuts. Yeah we're like it too.
Eight groups or authority here, but so I feel like he learned something along the way and he starts out. I think it's a good thing for us to talk a little bit about just dumb before these dudes, how Paley
paleontology, came about here,
in that had you know, I think, since people just started,
I'm upon bones even by accident,
before it was even a discipline. People were like, oh man, look at that thing. I'm going to pick that up and take it with me right. I think they used to get class
it also is mythological? Creatures are dead gods or something like that, but the first documented paleontological
petition in North America was care.
Out by none other than Lewis and Clark? Did you know that before
We mention the episode, you think I don't know, but I did know at some point from somewhere. Maybe it was the the kin burns peace, but that you know
one of the things they did. I mean they were.
They were logging everything including bone deposits, but they spend like a week
around salt Lake Flat, Sir Sir
like Gully year, SALT Lake, something where
There was a big old salt lake in that used to attract dinosaurs and pull pleistocene mammals from two different periods, or by per tree males away and their bones that would collect. There were really significant, so they spent a week like
Excavating there, but that was the first one, but that was even before the world with the word Paley
how'd you was coined yeah. That was an eighteen. Twenty two in the french journal differs
and there are a couple of people that proceeded
In fact, one of whom went onto
sort of a mentor to cope.
But I got him Edward Hitchcock, another guy named Joseph as it lighter your lady. I think lady is
I've seen them most l e I d Y and he's the one that went onto to work with cope later on, but I just put opinion this, but an eighteen
the eight, oh pretty important, find basically that the only big guy
we'll find on the EAST coast where the fossil I bones
urban or name had resource faulty,
in New Jersey, and it was
deal because it was on the EAST coast, and this is where the stuff was going on in time and you lot of footprints on the EAST coast, but not a lot of fines. Like this
yeah. I was an enormous finding and lady was called, ended up, excavator and put it together because he was America's first vertebrate, paleontologists amazes the
sky and was really prolific in really good at what he did and, like you said, would eventually become a mentor to one of the guys. We should probably introduce now
because low lady was working in, I think, is. First real bursts of energy came in the eighteen fifties. Early eighteen fifty's
and dumb within about
fifteen. Maybe twenty years there were a guys who had come along and is completely change the field of paleontology,
started out very normally just another scientific feel very exciting one
discoveries to be made a mere that's the point of all this right is that like, if you have
Brand new scientific field, everything you come across as war
writing about. Describing you get to name everything. Those really exciting, like dynamic time for the field of paleontology, but but a field of science is the character of it is based on its earliest. Practitioners in lady was a very steady, normal scientist who is very reliable, so he kind of
paleontology up like that, but then along came a couple of guys who would form the rivalry and they would change all that. I dont think necessarily to this day, but there was a lot of
knifing that used to go on in the Philippines. Scientology thing that was because of the tone
he's gonna set yeah and both of them would end up basically bankrupted.
If each of their lives because of all their efforts to outdo
and undermine one another's work right. Sir, we're talking about to deeds. One is marsh and one is cope on eighth,
Often Neil I've never heard that name before. I think his parents made it up
Otis Age and I E Othoniel Charles March
it's eighteen, thirty one in New York,
he was there
have a lot of money in his family. They were farmers he would have
the farmer, but he had in this kind of really
changed his life, he had a very rich uncle main George p body.
Who would go on the really kind of fund his education in early
of his career later on ages. Put him out of the farm field basically said
I have no idea why he did this, but he said you. I, like the look of you in your brain, nephew and you're gonna go to smart would be. My guess was,
ok, why don't know how he demonstrated it? I guess that's what I'm trying to say like how did his uncle say? Yes, you're the one with me now, smarter, always evident. Ok, while he plucked him out sentiment,
school then send him to Yale and eventually sent him off to grad School in Germany. So Marsh we're gonna, call Mars kisses
MRS, too ugly and horrible to say out loud yeah, he was basically set. Here is fine. He had a better
factor in is extraordinarily wealthy, philanthropists uncle,
ass cope on the other hand,
similarly had money, but his was like in his family. He wasn't like poor with a rich uncle. He had a wealthy family very prominent
we in Philadelphia Pennsylvania he was born.
July. Eighteen, forty
he went to you know he all the trappings.
Yes, all the benefits of being born
into money. He went to very nice, expensive boarding school, and that was
so much up his ally, so he dropped out when he was sixteen and her because he had a ridge.
Rich dad it
him. A lot of opportunities that other people wouldn't have, including you know, Go-
the college later on, even though he never graduated high school yeah,
so there is a will. There is definitely in part because of his dad, but
so. This was a time in like sailor. Eighteen fifties relax. It was lacks banal
like, even if you wanted to go on and become like a get a Phd America,
universities weren't. You know they did
Offer many phd programmes in sciences right so there was a. There is a whole
they called gentlemen naturalists too, were amateurs, self taught right scientists who, just just
the work they knew, what they were doing. They figured it out as they went along and actually develop some of these fields, and so he kind of subscribed to that school where their old
all of gentlemen naturalist. Where there's you could you could go figure it out yourself without me
to go through the university, but he did that just on the cusp, like our parents, generation was just on the cusp of, though
ass group who could get away without knowing how to use email. He was like
that last generation they could become a scientist without having to go through formal training at a university right like if you have a tweed suit, with a stiff
our and a pencil and a pad given yukin and lots of time on your hands. You and that's that's I mean did to copes credit. I think that there really
demonstrates like he's like now, I'm gonna go, learn from experience, did backing it
he d, get Entre into places like the University of Pennsylvania or the
cadmium, natural Sciences in Philadelphia because of his family context, but I get the impression that he worked his way into this
play some once a garden. He here just lie.
We ve learned what he needed to learn. Yannick has it
One thing: we're gonna, learn about cope here over the next thirty minutes or so is he worked hard? Yes,
he's my pick of the bone wars he's, who I put my money behind, is hereby yet interesting.
We ever say his name, Edward Drinker, cope with a weird middle name. It is, he was a drinker literally really what's. He was also he's also Quaker and a pass
first to that's right, so at college at University Pennsylvania, that's where he met Joseph Lady. He was one of his professor so that just a new kind of kick start
during the civil war he went to Europe, the
can solve or because he didn't want to be. You know you don't want to go to war. You wanna go fight, you wanna go dig up,
bones, Yan, here's a Quaker pacifist to rights,
he went to Germany and in eighteen sixty three. He met marsh and
they really liked each other. At first, they had a lot in common, obviously
the feeling that in
Germany in eighteen, sixty three there
probably not a ton of Americans who are super inch, didn't dinosaur hunting, and so they they locked up.
Became really good pals. They came back,
the? U S after the civil war and friends.
We're both like our we're gonna go. Do our thing independently, but we're gonna keep in touch we're gonna, swap info.
We are here and it was
very friendly at first right, and I think you can make a pretty good case that they probably come
their own palms and clasped hands and became blubber brothers during that german meeting. Ok browser this overgrown with
they really did like each other,
things were gone along just fine to kindred spirits, with a common interest in paleontology,
and they may have continued on that way. Although I sincerely doubted that's the case,
which means I just under my own statement but
after the civil war. They both went back to the United States to start careers, their own careers and marsh their cope. I'm sorry! He connected with Joseph Lady
who had met through the University of Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences. They work together there, and so he went
for the lady to study, but
when's that were found at Haddonfield in New Jersey. Where is it where lady found that first skeleton right and so being friends with the bar? She naturally
naturally extended an invitation had come visit me in the field. You gotta see this place. It's amazing: through fossils, every
You're gonna love it and so Marsh came out for a visit, and this was this is Mark one
the turning point of their relationship. There were two distinct marks. What each of them point to wine is the the end of their friendship. This is the the end of their friendship, starting with cope
That's right, so both of these guys had privilege, like we ve, been talking about for marshes apart.
His uncle his rich uncle, donate
a hundred and fifty grand to Yale, basically to sort of get March a job,
They created the Peabody Museum of Natural history
and then they were like well hey. We need a professor to chair this new department
and so why not your nephew and they said, bully that's a great idea,
so basically caused a hundred fifty grand to get marsh. Does this job as the Chair of Department of paleontology at this new
You Peabody Museum it at Yale University right, and so they said. Yes, we want to make you the first professor of paleontology.
In America and marched said, yes, that's a great idea,
like where you're going Yale. I'm gonna spend a lot of time here I can tell so that's that's mar setting
find his little trajectory basically ensconced himself in Yale right right, cope. Remember. He was basically a high school drop
and he had to kind of make his own way. He had trouble it
first finding a position until he struck upon a place called have referred college.
And he got a position as a professor of zoology there and they said well, your high school drop
So what does give you honor, honorary masters of arts, degree
being now you're professor Aronnax Workin out for both of these guys. Yet, although
hope didn't really like, however, for that much he ends up quitting any actually kind of a good kind of describes his personality, a little bit that the incident that he would get a good job,
having can have been carried into their position and then says this job is bs. I'm quitting that he was apparently prone to kind of a quick temper here, they're yeah I mean it's a does make the point
cannot party piece together personality from some one way back then button who, by most accounts cope, was a bit mercurial.
A little more outgoing marsh was a little quieter,
and a known as a bit of a flake.
You know, but considering their backgrounds, the it's
makes sense where they ended up marsh.
They went about their work in very different ways: Martian publish his first papers,
He was thirty years old. He was.
Lifelong Bachelor Code- Mary
when he was twenty five and
hope you know even the way they rode copra. These very sort of flowery descriptions of things will Marsh was much more sort of rigid and sort of dry and scientific gallic. If you, if you re, cope, stuffy he's trying to like
set the scene, for you mean there's one paper where he was describing pterodactyls, unlike its scientific papers, all you have to do is described.
Bones in the measurements and extracting that kind of stuff, but he's like painting the picture of what it must have been like on a cliffside by the ocean is a true.
Of these things were dangling by their claws. You know cigarettes is super cool over deafening transport, the reader,
and it was a little extra doll above something that you didn't have to put on, but cope definitely did put on which a surprise
using that he put anything extra into his work because he published at an extraordinary pay so much so that Marsh in particular, was like this man is obviously fraudulent. Nobody can publish this much,
for sure and will touch on that a bit later. The big difference in their earlier careers was,
when it came to religion. Like you said earlier, COPE was a Quaker,
and was a religious man. Marsh was not. He was not very into religion and he was
go down with evolution and natural selection.
In the, whereas cope
I had to make it all fit within his religious belief,
so it's not like he outright like called
when a fraud or anything like that, but he
then, like the act
of God into his theories and sort of make the made it all work according to his in a religious beliefs which is
I mean back then a little
little bit different, but even back then for a scientist sort of an odd thing yet for sure, but he his teacher
direct if science in his religious belief
and the way that our people do. That back then, was to subscribe to kneel Lamarck ISM, which is this idea that changes in a population-
take place on the individual level. Like an example I saw was, if you're blacksmith,.
And you use your arm a bunch to hammer you're gonna, get a big old bulky, aren't right. Well, when you have kids you're going to pass
bulky arm that you developed in your lifetime off to them and that's how evolution happens in its much more directed by God, then what
Darwin was saying, which is you're just boy,
with the random mutation and if their mutation happen,
to make it more likely for Europe to survive to pass along your genes than that mutation, we'll get selected by nature, which basically has
nothing to do with God. So there is a real like struggle for cope throughout his lifetime rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that
the body of work that he produced really help proved dark
point more than anything here for sure
comes to like where things went wrong because they were still buddies up until this point. Is it
seemingly looks like Marsh, drew first blood
We mention that Haddonfield dig earlier, so it's one sixty eight copious
left his job. It have referred he's not very happy there, so he leaves he's really kind of
on the ground, doing the work published
papers which will see later at an alarming rate and
working with lady who we talked about
and he invited Marsh cuz their bodies and he's like. Did you gotta go check this out
a legit dinosaur fossil on the east coast. Marshes like great I'll, go check it out. He loves what he sees and says. This is wonderful friend he's doing such great work here, Pat on the back, then he sneaks backing
it on by himself and bribes, the workers, their copes workers
these workers and says hey man.
If you find any more good specimens, send them to this address in
some little doubt for your effort? Can you
that I mean two straight up sold amount right, so marshes just
out himself as a very wormy type of fellow, not to be trusted in the way that
there is a really great american experience. Episode called dinosaur wars that really can described it like two to cope. He subscribed to that gentleman scholar
of mentality, which was theirs unwritten rules you know like I came and showed you my quarry
behind my back to steal my fossils from my Corey, not cool those cops, take from marshes point of view, he was kind of from the the business like american school of of
to conquer at all costs- and he owed no allegiance really too to cope in that sense that he saw an opportunity and he took it, and that was marshes view of the whole thing, but to cope. That was like
That was not very cool, and I'm going to remember that, but I'm still going to
in a deadly remain friends with you. I was taken
and we'll come back right after this and well we'll talk about it
Marsh always said was the reason they were no longer friends right after this aim,
It's me jack right here right next year by next to me, just like a work, hey
one join with you to tell people too.
Tune in to a very special episode special year of tedious,
That is, I guess this is actually look. I know you saw the social media Zaza, the Ellie Otto. She said what are these two juggernaut supplied casting doing there when Mazda cause me ever they say miles. We know that you're a loyal, Mazda owner, we want to align with you because you get it yeah. You know what I am willing to answer the call and help Ding Ding help people understand the power of it. So what we did is we actually got to record of special episode inside the New Mazda six thirty.
Where we talked about kind of like flow states and we feeling alive and how we feel alive. What makes us feel like it was really doped actually record inside the car. I got to press a lot of buttons and make them mad, because you like, please don't fumble around in here
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Ship today worried so
our really screwed his friend over
yeah, I'm in his back paid off duty to send him stuff.
But according to Marsh he's like
That's not why we weren't friends anymore! That that was not what really killed or friendship at all. Here's. What happened
later on that year, COPE published a paper,
establishing this new species. Alas, most Cyrus precarious nice. Thank you,
Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural Sciences and fully to check this thing out, because they're still sort of friends at this point right and corruption
off his things. Like look at this thing, I put this thing back together and look at this.
EL. It's amazing and said my friend
It appears you have fallen into the classic paleontology trap and
mounted the head on the, but here
in this way,
humiliating thing for cope, sure so much
that he realized. Oh god, I just wrote a paper describing this
with its head on the wrong end,
the american Philosophical Societies Journal and ran out.
Tried to by as many of these copies as it could just to cover up as his mistake and
the way that the way the Marsh put it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could about this gap is very glibly about it, oh very, very like he he went. He just wanted to make sure there, but he knew that cope had screwed up right, whereas he characterized the story. He characterized himself in the stories
serving gently pointed this out. He basically said that Cubs vanity was well
did in his wounded vanity received a shock from which it is never recovered. Basically saying like that
We did. He get it wrong when I gently pointed this out, this guy, just slip down is still hasn't forgiven me, so there
what happened. To our our friendship never mind the whole going behind his back thing Haddonfield. This is really what happened. Then thing it,
That story isn't even correct its just like a sliver of the fuller picture, because a fuller picture involves Joseph
lady, who again remember, was working at the
Academy Natural Sciences in Philadelphia, where this skeleton was in the first place.
So what apparently, really happened is is March
comes in and just says: oh actually, the net
is in the wrong position,
got everyone over there looking and ladys the one who actually said oh no
had the head in the wrong place where the tail is and so fully paint a picture here. This wasn't like some huge big deal like
mistakes. It was very early on and paleontology every
was doing their best.
There was a lot of trial and error going on a lotta guesswork
and it wasn't like. Oh my gosh Eve, you know it's not like someone.
Day drawing the head of a bear mounted on his, but there
when the best they could- and it wasn't like some huge error right now in and
It is true from what I understand that Coke did run around trying to buy they copies of the American Philosophical Society journal that had the incorrect part in it, and he was
humiliated, especially the fact that Marsh was involved. But it is definitely one
marsh running to the rescue to save paleontology in encode, this being a voice over olives deftly incorrect picture that Marsh painted, but regardless of how its painted or what actually happened, that two pronged attack on the friendship both of em perpetrated by March. Frankly, if you ask
The ended their friendship like they're they're friendliness was basically out there
there's some evidence that in their followed,
couple years when they wrote to one another. They would be kind of jokingly reference some of this stuff in the past, but then
even that eventually dried up, and they
genuinely became bitter bitter
made all the more pronounced when the west was opened,
by the transcontinental railroad because all of a sudden, you said earlier that the fossil fuels in the east, when that was it
conditions of climate and geology, and these were not conducive to preserving dinosaur bones. The exact opposite is true of the western United States
when the west opened up. There was like come on
paleontology- that the timing of the two is just astoundingly perfect. Yeah
we're talking about the decoders Kansas just
and not even too hard to find a lot of times
I mean if Europe Alien Technologists and you headed west. If you had some protection, because this is despite our efforts,
still sort of a dangerous area for
white man from EAST to be travelling around the NATO
Eric and tribes there in the western tribes did not take kindly to a lot of it. No because think about
like they went from. You, know: wagon trains of settlers coming through
periodically to trains day.
Moving people in an hour, so it was a big deal to the western tribes who were
heading back and pushing back against this encroachment and wave that was coming much more straw,
We then had been before the railroad two yet for sure so
From this point on the guy's, took very sort of different, I guess were forced to take different approaches to their careers space. We spend the rest of his life as
a working paleontologists like feet on the ground for the most part he
work at a college. She didn't work at a museum until now,
much later, he was not like taking care of her
by the government so
They drove you know it came from wealthy family, so he paid for most of the stuff himself sold his farm, his Nino family Quaker Farm and got a big fat,
irritants and started, go in West and started amassing this big,
election. That was actually his will
a really big deal because since no one was
attributing to his financial burdens. He, I guess technical
on this stuff right. He owned a fair and square. I mean he'd financed zone, expeditions he paid for the shipping and transportation of these things, which is in
thing the railroad held did not only open the western help, ship enormous bones backing to the museums, but he was paying for this so yeah that his collection was his own.
March, on the other hand, being in sky
Einstein Yale. He was able to rely on Yale, Yale Families, the government cod
acts that Yale had to finance the expedition.
That he went on so
his mind. There was his collection but tat,
nuclear really wasn't because he hadn't financed any of it himself. It had all been financed by others. Think the thing about Marsh, though Chuck, is that he was
first one to make it out west and because he was the first one there he basically considered
the entire western United States, his turf and
someone else's encroaching on it, which is awfully written
You can remember what he did to cope back. Haddonfield inside you
back. Then there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils, but now that he's the first went out west there is such a thing.
All belong to him for sure, I'm sick of it
you know when it comes to academic, they also were really really different and how they approach things. We can
he's earlier about how much cope, wrote and public
and boy it's astounding. It seems
a key published throughout his career about fourteen hundred academic papers.
In eighteen. Seventy is he
is doing about twenty five papers year and in one winter alone, of eighteen, seventy, nine
in eighteen, eighty published seventy six papers very prolific
to the point where
Pretty easy for someone like Marsh to poke holes and kind of say that he was either
being people or played right.
People or just outright fraudulent in that no one can write this much stuff it also
the problem in that cope. He was publishing so much that it had a hard time getting stuff
I wish to say why, after while because there weren't a ton of scientific journals- and I can't be lightless a man- we can't publish like ten things a month for me, you are a quarter because will this call this thing the COPE journal and he said that's it
good idea, so in eighteen, seventy seven he bought the America
naturalist journal for himself
publish all his own works, which.
In it being a really, I don't about bad choice.
But financially it. It is what really put the big
dead in his future, fortunes was sinking
of his own money into this american naturalist,
I was there. I thought the silver mine, the journal, set him up for it
The silver mine was a last ditch effort to try and make a little bit of money that he was almost broke by that point. So so he
but he does have this forum now where there is a good thing,
supper, Tunisia or not, he is a form to publish in and in like you're saying he wrote to so many papers. Not only was it just too many for the journalist to keep up with their also a lot of questions of these journals like waiting
If you're, like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you shouldn't be able to publish this much and one of the problem.
Of the bone wars. The rivalry between cope in March, that that really kind of got both of them to be the first to rush to name a species or make some new discovery.
So that the other one couldn't is that there is a lot of sloppy work that came out of it
and when there is a lot of sloppy sloppy tex, economical work where the same species is getting different names from different people. At the same time, that takes a lot to untangle and apparently took paleontology many DEC
aids to kind of undue some of the sloppy work that was kind of late at the FAO,
nation of the field and in the eighteen, seventies, Yan, especially copes feet cause for his power,
marsh, was very very much more methodical did not
was nearly many papers, but, along with that, come
it's a lot more prestige, no one was going to no one's going to talk about marsh and say that he's publishing too much he's doing sloppy work. So as a result, they were published
in some really prestigious journals over the years kind of almost exclusively
and he had like you said Yale behind them, so he would take students allow time
make them pay their own way, because this is all a very expensive endeavour for the time you know
was it was sort of creative and how he would find some of this, like you, a lot
John to other western expeditions
had nothing to do with paleontology
EL the Wheeler survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was able to hook up with so he would cut corners and save where he could
with the power of Yale University behind him in these students who would pay their own way
Marsh had a real advantage when it came to us taking his claim at West right and also there is
the first expeditions he went on was funded,
by the families of some Yale students with some you know, Yale students and Marsh basically
in cowboy out west and the first, I guess the first
day once they arrived out West, where there again dig Buffalo bill. Cody shows up basically kind of like as a guest star
appearing to delight and thrill the the Yale boys,
of whom wrote about the whole expedition in the whole thing up published in Harpers, so the whole thing kind of demonstrates that Adam Marshes, much as can be seen as like this meat
deliberate scientists was also really get it self promotion to over sure he would.
We're gonna. I think he sort of fashioned himself
if, as a Teddy Roosevelt Type or
Maybe a buffalo bill type
and yet he would suit his own horn for sure, for his part, cope after
his father passed away spent less
less time out west in the actual field more time and Phil,
alpha and he would hire guys out in fact, March would later Goin to do a very similar thing. Where are they
had their diggers out. There.
Sk evading and then sending bones back to the EAST coast, where they could do there.
Again into their studying their right, and it's out west that this
the famous bone. Wars really started to take place, but like
you're saying neither Marsh nor COPE were there, but what
was going on out West. All the dirty deeds in all that stuff were at the direction and behest of these two. So you
take another breakin and get into what the bone war is really all about. Ok, we'll be right back
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hurry Chuck, so very
in seventies role around the west is opened up from
transcontinental railroad? The it's giving up its fossils is just crazy. How
well preserved. Fossils are out there because of heat and drying
sinner window erosion exposes omen, and there is a part of that american Experience Documentary where they, they showed a picture of like this, this landscape that you can see from the train and
they said that that some expedition was riding buying, figured that they were writing by our own. Mr Brok outcropping, and they realise there was just a field
virgin dinosaur bones. That's it wasn't rocks, it was bound to
any bones there were out West, so the west
The stirring to yield the stuff in just one place would become like a treasure. Trove in another place would become a treasure trove and each of these places some prospector would find a big bonus,
first thing they would think of was I need to either get in touch with the cope or marsh, because
These guys are going to want to know about this in, though, probably pay big bucks for it, and that's really once they stopped
mounting their own expeditions. That's how they got most of their bones is from amateurs getting in touch with them. Yet
this you know this would open the door for these guys to really kind of get under
and they would hire guys away from each other. They would pay for it
nation about the other person's digs and the bones,
they were getting, they went out
did one another and, like you know eventually, like I said both
guys would end up pretty much financially ruined. In the end, there were reports of sabotage of theft. There were
reports of dynamiting, the other persons like digs in their camps? Well, one thing I
listen! This marsh ordered that if in his man, couldn't get bones out
like a find like they just couldn't get it out. He said smash him do
Leave them because I don't want cope to possibly be able to get him,
self, and not only that, but the bones that they would like smaller, finds that they would dig up that they didn't think were as important. They would smash. So the other person
have anything to do with him yeah. So they were smashing the fossils that they sought for science
because of their rivalry. That's the insane
three, that it reached
yeah- and you know it's easy now too.
And I'm wondering if this like how much they had to trump this up for a movie script, because it seems I got some of this is exaggerated.
I don't know they found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps. It seems like the most they would do is, like you know, push dirt back concept.
That they had dug up and not you know again there, their black he's out there doing stuff right
now these guys, this is often kind perpetrated by martian cope themselves. They would can a trumpet these stories
the press and things to kind of make the other one look bad,
so while there were bound wars going on, I'm not sure it was quite is like exciting. Is there made out to be-
while there were like shootouts or anything like that, but I mean just the fact that these two paleontologist are trying to sabotage. One another's career is kind of holy.
Yes, in and of itself, you know
yeah, I mean, and it could have. You know the fact that these
were driving each other like this,
when we look at it through now, as I did, this hurt the field paleontology or help it, meaning catalogue
from two angles and one hand war what if they would have worked together and pool their resources may be there
found a lot more and gotten a lot more things straight. They needed
have to untangle later or maybe because they
oh competitive, Andrew
each other to work harder. Maybe
they were uncovering things because at that because they uncovered
lot of stuff like they were both super prolific together. I think between
two of them. They account for a hundred twenty six new species of dinosaur and that's just dinosaur
yeah and again. This is at a time where you could like stub your toe and look down, and you just discovered a new species of dinosaur, because so little work have been done in the field, but yeah they definitely
did Dr One another to tutor
work harder and faster and try to outdo one another in one of the big benefits that the field saw that you can point to in retrospect n,
at the time was that winter of eighteen. Seventy seven that I was talking about this is like
winter. My Wyoming
very welcoming climate and yet both marsh end cope hired their prospects.
Their bone diggers to continue working through the winter, rather than taking a break like introduced
we new dug in the summer rope
birds in the winter. They said no keep going. This is just too
bones are coming out of this place to good, and I don't want my rival to be the one to take em all out, so both kept working through the winter
and out of that one winter we got triceratops. We got a petty Soares, so they s orders
biggest source, all from that one winter of eighteen, seventy seven, and if you can't look back and say yes
guys drove one another to to this level of discovery. I don't know what you can't say: I just throw my hands up in disgust. Otherwise, do they make sense, sure, ok,
as a paleontologist, you could literally just say
you know the triceratops. I discovered it yeah and that could be
that could be your career right there, let alone the stigma Soares. On top of the tree. Sarah tops come on her and then a powder source
that may sound vaguely familiar. But here let me drop went on you that
say: oh you ready brontosaurus same thing, apparently
yeah I didn't. I didn't even fully get. I mean this. It gets into the weeds with like serious paleontology, pedantry and learning out, but yeah
I only brontosaurus
allow me to nerdy for just a second the point of the apparatus horse. Bronze.
This being the same thing with different names as one of those things that's frequently later
feed of March the saying this was sloppy work on marshes part, and maybe if you
and been competing with cope. He wouldn't
better work, that's probably not the case, but he named the same species to different things because he thought they were two different species in a later paleontology.
About twenty thirty years later came along. He said. I think this is the same thing, since they were the pad first
That's what we're going to call this from now on and so scientifically. Brontosaurus should have gone, and I can't believe, I'm about to say is the way of the dinosaur, but somehow
it got into the cultural Zeit Guys dinner. They said no, we like saying brontosaurus more. I blame this.
Cindered, the Flintstones because of the brown ashore
Berger thing. Who who knows, if that's the case or not, but that was that was supposed to be
the brown a source in the Apache source are the same thing really you're supposed to com a pat assaults. There you have it oaks, nursing out
so an eighteen eighties. This is, after the big rush of the late seventies,
Things started to change a bit
Some marshes got a couple of jobs, he's the head he's he works at the: U S geological survey and as the president
the National Academy of Sciences, but financially they're. Not
and so great on either side, because, like me, said earlier, they spent a lot of their money trying to outdo one another,
so I'm marshes in a way way better position than coat. This is actually at a point when cope is kind of against the ropes by
rather than both of them, just kind of going their own way, the dinosaur wars of kind of ebbs a little bit and they can just
they often in work is paleontologist to the rest of their life. Marsh decides to come after cope in deal in the death blow.
The moment marsh had a position of power that he could use against cope. He abused his position. Immediate
I was very high up in the: U S: GS, any user connection to freeze
cope out of any any chance of getting any kind of government funding for any further expeditions. So cope was basically penniless. Sorry
because he had invested in that silver mine that that he used to
of his money for basically the silver, my boss, so we lost
of his money, and now his group,
just enemy and rival, was in charge of the purse strings for government expeditions and head
because I do not getting a dime cope, so cope was left with his collection and nothing else. That's bad enough, but then March decided to take at once
further and he introduced some laws into the. U S, genius, I guess, by laws and said, if a government,
if a government programmer agency has funded an expedition, any fossils collected from the expedition,
belong to the government and he sent the: U S: GS after copes collection, he tried to take copes collection. The only thing
had left. He didn't have his family anymore
living alone and like a tiny apartment surrounded by his collection, it was
all. He had left a marsh tried to take it from him and actually Marsh failed, because cope could prove that he had paid for most of it outright and it was actually
that kind of funding the rest of his life. He would sell parts of it here and there when he needed to make rent and stuff like that. I did get it
He in eighteen, eighty nine. He was hired as professor of Zeus.
The of Pennsylvania. So that's good,
a little bit of an income
there was there were dead to each other. This
though spent a lifetime battling. Each other cope was just in fury.
Did it the links marsh would go. It was all just very petty,
this point and neither one of em come out looking great because,
a career of sort of back stabbing each other and they went to the press.
In the end, I think it was cope. He had taken these copious notes over his life
about all the grievances he had against Marsh over the years and he went to the
York, Herald they published an article about this, but it ended up just
in both of em look bad. It made Marshall back as the things he did made cope, look
can a petty and angry about everything, and this is all
and a played out in public in the press. Right in this. In this first article, when
hope, went to the Harold he accused not just dumb marsh of of
like wrong doing, but also the U S, GS of corruption and that actually got the interest of Congress who started, investigating and ended up cutting the? U s she s, budget
like half so marsh end up losing his job and his position is head paleontologist at the: U S, GS, and in a b
beautiful ironic twist that law that he himself
head inserted in through the: U S: GS that anybody whose collection have been financed by the? U S, government could lose their collection meant that he actually lost his collection. The government came after his collection and took a substantial chunk of it for itself
because it had financed so much of his expeditions. So it ended up turning him, inviting him in his own rear and he lost
a lot of his collection, which really burned to cope, died. First,
he died in eighteen, ninety, seven at the age of fifty six, but not before he
would issue a challenge to March, which is only
my body in my brain to science, and I bet you my brains, bigger than your brain.
Martian overtook debate? He died,
eighteen. Eighty nine of pneumonia at the age of sixty eight and
accounts did not take part in this brain measuring competition. Is this post
Miss competition in the grave
which I think is kind of funny, but
that brain. I think hopes brain is still,
still under the ownership of the university Pennsylvania today, still one
The halls at night, amazing, ghostly brain
the surprise, ending this one. It right now!
Yes, in the end, Marsh is credited with eighty species. Two cups, fifty six, which is not bad pus, also cope. Has that fourteen hundred papers under his belt two papers
you anything else about the bone. Wars nope. Well, that's it!
there is, I think, there's a drunk history episode about this in a verse I put, it looks pretty good. I would recommend that american experience episode on it and I just go breed up more on. It is pretty interesting stuff and since I said it a bunch of times just now, it's time for listener mail
are you going to call this civil air patrol? This is from Jackson share. But Lahti, can I ask you a question? Yes, there is a big influx of soup.
Air Patrol emails. Out of nowhere did you notice? I did not yet we go.
A handful of em. Just out of the blue- and I didn't know if something happened or what, but I guessed making the round somehow, who knows? Maybe Roma civil air Patrol Watch list Weblog
They do so from Jackson. He says I have been a listener for about seven years, since I was ten years old
Anyway, I'm a senior master sergeant in the civil air patrol and I've been in it for about
and have years you re
excited you guys. Finally did apart guest on us is not a ton of people, even though he exist some say we are the airforces best kept secret. That
here I would say one might have some on you guys, but it is not
get some publicity like that, though you guys totally nailed, it didn't awesome. Job, like always being a cadet in the programme,
like to hear more about that part. May give you a short stuff on Sunday
life is more of a training life. Then
actually doing the stuff, like that
how to lead effectively and I'll bet jazz. We
I also have a lot of many boot camp things that we go
further or learning. Anyhow,
You didn't outstanding job and I would appreciate it
could give a shout out to my squadron,
the Green Mountain Composite Squadron up. It's not a bad name
Green mountain composite squadrons.
Sounds like a wholesale furniture material,
going to say it sounds like a sort of a modern bluegrass band
when two yeah like there's a lot of tenth, involve tour again sent in mandolin, Ok
and those from Jackson, Jackson, it's either from man for this bluegrass span of course,
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-31.