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So I think that you, it's gonna, be a great one and then Minneapolis at the pants ages, theatre rebuild before its lovely September. Twenty seventh yeah and then we're gonna swing around Austin. It's gonna, be during and city limits, although it has nothing to do with us in city limits will be their act over ten, yes when two lovely Lawrence Kansas girl, J Shakspeare October leather than hey, if you're in Kansas, or anywhere in that area. That is your chance getting your car If you are anywhere near Brooklyn well, then you should go to the Bell House October. Twenty second, twenty third and twenty fourth will be. There are three nights and finally we're gonna rapid appeared at land at the bucket theatre on November forth for a bit show where we are donating awe of the monies to Lifeline animal project of a manner and the National Down syndrome society. Yet so all this information again visually and for links to tickets, just go to s why s k, live dot com! Welcome

Stop. You should know from Hausa for Stockholm and we're going to the Pakistan Josh clerk. There's chose a beach of bright, over there. So this stuff, you should know the podcast correct we're not going dark. Now, although that's a thing, It is a thing for the battle for the net action day. Battle of the network stores notice net battle for the next year, which I would guess most people have heard of, maybe not by that name. Necessarily

by dumb, say if you're, a John Oliver Falconer have been paying attention at all to the FCC rules about net neutrality. Battle for the net is, is kind of at the forefront of all that the end, since our show comes out on a Tuesday which is July Eleventh, and that is the day that some websites have liked it to grow dark. I think they're going dark. The next day I want the twelve Ok all right! Well, then, and I feel so bad, but we figured we are actually someone wrote in suggesting this, then maybe, instead of going dark as you guys, but we can't do that. Maybe you should just doing episode on net neutrality to teach all the peoples about the things right and it was a pretty pretty good. I suggestion I agree get suggestion. I am, I feel, bad, that we are

remember who it was that road it. But thank you for that. Whoever was you know who you are because you're the only one who did here they don't do it for the glory now. So what are we talking about chuckling we're talking about? neutrality or network neutrality or open internet so what that is mainly what people mean when they say that neutrality is the idea that The internet is an open road and it doesn't have fast lanes or slow lanes. It is providing equal acts

ass to anyone who wants to build a website but say can can throw it up there and have equal access to the big rollers on the internet with huge sites. Your all the same as far as how people can access you yeah, and whether or not they can access you yeah and how is ass, they can access you exactly right. There is this. Some, this is create, explain, earn vocs about net neutrality that we use deserve resource, but they they gave this good example of net neutrality right, so leave pointed out that when Facebook was created at Zuckerberg didn't have to go to Comcast HORIZON or any of the irish peace, the internet service providers, the big companies that provide the last mile, the connection between your house in the week internet day. That's what an ice p is very important to remember that part right there. He didn't have to to them and say: hey? Will you carry me

website on your network. He just built the website, pointed into the internet, uploaded it to the internet and it was available to any device or computer. There was connected to the internet anywhere in the world right here and the fact that he did have to go to them and ask that to be added to their network. The fact that here to go to them to say, hey, I need people, will they download stuff fast? So here's a bunch of extra money to the fact that he didn't do that. That's how it has been up to this point. There is network neutrality, that's that's the basis of net neutrality, especially from the standpoint of developers in companies that they create sites in applications on the web. Yeah it's

that's a very large spider crawling economy, soy sauce on the allegory mine among Conrad's alert, because it look, I know, just a big spider logo for you. So it's in a letter levels of playing field and all internet traffic is treated equally right, so none he doesn't level the playing field for people who are creating. You know Facebook or Netflix, sir. What have you? It also levels the playing field or levels. The experience for users right here, if you're a user hang you are on the internet, through your eyes. P like you, should be getting whatever site you wanna go to at the same speed as any other. And your internet service provider shouldn't be able to decide. We don't really like

you getting that site. We don't really like you having that app. We're gonna make it so that this and this traffic moves so slowly give up trying to download it or we're just gonna. It entirely clear, and why maybe because that's a competitor to us in some way- and we would like to serve you up our product faster right so preventing peace from being able to do that. That's open, open, internet or network neutrality; ok, yeah, that's the bases of theirs! Currently how it stands, now in the idea of network neutrality. Is it some, I guess, about fifteen years old back in who doesn't to a guy named him we'll who is a Columbia University law. Professor nobly, I coined the term network neutrality basically describe

a level playing field for everybody involved right, especially at the at the internet service provider level. And since then it's become this topic of debate like issued it should this be. Something that is there that we all want to adopt is like the basically the rules for the internet should network neutrality be the basis how the internet is built and approached here, which is a big deal because we're, even though it seems like were far along. We are still in the infancy stage of the internet and the impacts we would be long, lasting and huge. Moving forward. Further from what I understand, most people agree that net neutrality is at its basis the an agreeable way to frame the internet. Yes, the way it should be there is even back into doesnt for

years will see. We just went through this and we're going through again now back into doesn't fourteen. There were a pair of poles that I ran across from two different. One of them is University of Delaware. Karen the other one was, but he found they even among conservatives that net neutrality is is highly valued, something like eighty two, eighty three percent of people who identifies conservative. I say that I, as peace, should be prevented from slowing or blocking traffic right here, and that Congress should actually do something about it right. So people, people by and large, agree that net neutrality is the way the internet should help the division. That is right.

Can I come out, especially recently, is how that good can be achieved. Do you achieve it by giving power to the EP, see see to go police die as peace and find them, and basically make life hard for If they don't follow the rules or do you to remove any teeth that the FCC might have in policing the irish peace and just leave it up to competition. And depending on where you fall ideologically. As far as Government regulation goes is pro believe me where you're going to fall along the spectrum of net neutrality, yeah it's it's not a black and white thing, like you would think, like the end user to sing,

yeah, you know, there's gotta be net neutrality, no matter what there's a lot of users rely on a man. All I care about is streaming. My stuff is efficiently and fast as possible, and right of getting rid of net neutrality would increase that competition, and I could get my men Netflix movies all summer and faster than I am all for it right there. On the other side, you got big corporate corporations that maybe don't feel, You think they might yeah. You think you know that stuff like this, usually when the governments involved to take a big guy, big corporation versus little guy kind of thing, but now there that there is a dispute between corporations to like you said where the I s, peace, I kind of thing, but now there's a there- is a dispute between corporations to like you said,

are your lined up against the tech companies like the Tec media companies like Youtube Netflix in formerly tumblr, some of the other guys Facebook, Google, where there there on opposite sides of this this issue, which is strange because they need each other. They are very incestuous relationships that are very complicated and complex here, but as far as net neutrality goes, they are pretty much complicated and complex, but as far as net neutrality goes, they are pretty much divided between. I asked peas and tech media companies. One side is against the net neutrality rules. One side is strongly in favour of a boy. You talk about complex,

being a part of the same company or getting into the media content game like things getting interesting, yeah interesting, but also had a scary, because right now, back in wealth back in two thousand fifteen, the FCC struck a huge blow to the irish peace. With a set of new rules, four hundred page compendium, Ike you'd call it of rules. That basically said you guys can't mess around anymore. The eyes p are not allowed to block or throttle or provide fast lanes with. Just get a real and the net really is gonna be neutral. From now on, that was under Obama and Trump has appointed a different FCC chairmen, who was a member of the Assisi before, and he is not in favour of that. It also do you wanna. Do you want to talk about?

the what the two fifty two thousand fifteen rules are in Canada, Howard, for the moment. Well, here's what I think we should do. It would take a break our care. We should go back in time when we come back and talk a little bit about the phone companies which all kind of set the stage for working on today. Ok I'll be right back as wires. Why everybody. We want to talk about audible, which just so happens to be the sponsor of the audible audio pioneer award at this year's Iheart. Radio podcast towards an audible, gives you the edge by keeping you informed, inspired and entertained on the go

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hundred five hundred jobs are eight. I promise talk about phone companies, cassettes citing stuff. It's amazing how much telephone companies have shaped law and policy in this country over the years yet this like that with the telephone monopolies back in the day, and that was so very interesting there. You used to have to leave your telephone from the phone company like people in by telephone, you least it get nowhere. Does one telephone company wasn't dispel yeah, basically mobile, yet another broke it up into the small boats. The baby bells think that's what they call them. This is all like from my childhood, so I didn't

look up! Much of that, but where technology FCC here is that the governing body and back in the seventies eighties. They were sort of We in on this game with the phone companies, the early days of computer networking, and they They came out really early on. They had a lot of foresight. Back then said you know what we need to guarantee consumers with the right to use modems on their phone lines here, because this is like everyone Seymour Games, and we all know that. That's that's how the future is going. You gotta put your phone on a big box here you found receiver on a big box. I wanted one of us so bad, oh yeah, like you, they were so expensive. You literally connected your phone right. Had an idea what to do with it, I just thought like well: that's that you can hear the clause, the agriculture but the by treating them.

She's, saying: ok, everybody has the right to have a modem in their house. Use a phone line user. That's that's! There was kind of a radical idea and the reason why is because, when you talk about telephone carriers right, like back in the day. Eighteen t write marble, wait. What you are saying is your private operation. You have gone and laid tell phone wires, ah throughout the United States. You guys built the: U S telephone and restructuring. Yes, we, the government, the taxpayers, gave you substantial tax breaks and in what benefits to doing this, and you guys are the ones making the money operating these phone lines, but we have decided that the phone lines are so important to the public would they you guys aren't allowed to just be a normal cooperation that the government stays laissez faire hands off with you right

You guys are deemed order considered common carriers like a road but here we are like the people who carry people along roads, goods and people right You're like an airline you're like her, you, like a cargo transport shit. You're like a greyhound bus, but by with telephone line three, so that the governments everyone should be able to have access to telephone lines. You can charge people for that access, but you can't mess with there access were not letting you and in the seventies, one of them things are the eighties. I think one of the things that government said was hey. You know What kind of the bosses of you guys, even though your private corporations well boss, you ran right now and say any business. Their wants to come along use your phone lines to provide,

I let modem service to their customers. You have to let them do it. Now is a public good. It was for the public good and by doing that, the dial up internet industry was able to blossom unfettered with government protection right. The government gotten between that blossoming industry. There was in competition with the telephone companies and the telephone companies they could have strangle. The in the cradle now is that that was the first big thing that ass you see did as far as the internet goes yet in eighteen, eighty, six very important distinction. Drawn with basically Congress, drawing up two categories and this you'll see plays out kind of over and over and will continue to in the future to different things, telecommunication services and information services, so telecom services. We were talking about the phone lines that what we are talking about here and

As far as the laws concern there are a lot of, like you were talking about legal obligations on these services and FCC has a lot of oversight and regulation over them. Yet information services. On the other hand, they said like like Facebook, that's an information service youtube as an information service. They were less, are well basically exempt from most of the F c c regulations. So dividing those things into was very, very big deal and during the Clinton years, what most people would consider? What a jet pie, which we he is trumps, pick TAT chair the FCC. He called the Clinton era and basically up to two thousand fifteen a light touch regulation, which is what he is in favour of and what will get to him will but more diminute. But it's that Clinton era FCC

Regulations are basically did what you're talking about said. You know what we want dsl. Thus the newest thing forget dial up. We want to send faster speeds over the internet and are you all have to play along, so they did it again to the companies. They went to answer murmured dialogue models norm suddenly longer obey wants dsl. So now you guys have Any dsl provider use your phone lines and that led the dsl, the beginning the high speed internet industry flourish right. So there's this pattern of the SSC coming into being, like you guys, are huge as who provide that last mile, you calm and carriers who are they gatekeepers between the public at large and the public internet. You guys stand between him and were saying you can't do this. You can't you You can't do this. You can't do that and for a while, the irish peace were classified as telecommunications services, which meant that they fell under

way more oversight and scrutiny, like he said then say like Youtube. And the reason the government did. This was to let the internet start a boom right, yes end I am not sure why I guess, because it was Bush era and the ambush FCC Chair said we shouldn't be classifying irish peace as telling indications companies anymore, but we have to it's the law that he went to court and the court said. No, actually, you guys are the Etsy see if you want to start classifying internet service providers as information services which are not as heavily regulated. You guys go ahead and do that the Busher Assisi said: okay! Well, we here by decree the internet service providers, are not the akin to the bell. Tell us

on switchboard operators of your there, much more akin to you to their part of the internet, which, if you really sub think about it, doesn't make much sense, but that that was that there was a huge sea change in what they govern. Could say, or do two eyes, peas and gave them away more freedom to do a lot more stuff after they were classified as information, services here and now in two thousand in the chair that, as I see it, the time Julius GonNa Caskey said you know what we get. Some new regulations on the books we're gonna prohibit. I speak from blocking content online. We're gonna prohibit what we call unreasonable nation and there are gonna, have to be a little more transparent about what's going on, and this is in the era of broadband, now

and then Verizon stepped up and said. You know what we don't like the sounds of this. This is your? U desert Stepan Way over your your congressional power here near they said. Well, don't forget you guys classified as his information services. You can't tell us didn't to do or not do this stuff, we're not telecoms anymore, suckers yeah, pretty much in Dc Circuit Court of Appeals agreed with Verizon, and this suggestion twenty four. To just few years ago then said those rules of gotta go as long as you're classified that way. Then you're gonna have to play by these rules right, but that changed again in two thousand and fourteen when Tom Wheeler came along, have as the chair of the F c c right and he can flip flopped, he came out initially and propose some room

that people said no, that's like that's way too weak bra right. While he was ethnic, they got leaked and there is a huge backlash and public outcry against it in it. But I don't think anyone with surprise, because Wheeler, was a long standing armed lobbyist further oh and wireless industries right, so he was a industry insider who was to be regulating the that industry that he was already friends within. Whereas background was so noble, really surprised when Batsy came out he's really weaken rules on irish peace, but there is a huge backlash area that figure. That was the first battle that and then Wheeler where well. Oh, oh, oh, I was just kidding. Here's here's my real document. He didn't say that, but he came up with a new document with with bigger sharper

and that was what you reference early. The four hundred page document called two thousand fifteen open internet order, which was a really big deal. That was a surprise. Because we were again who is a lobbyist for the these very industries, not only reversed course from these toothless weak law rules. Too much stronger rules that were in step with the what the net neutrality advocates were asking for. He actually went even further and made even stronger, tighter net neutrality rules and then took the time to write something like three hundred pages of rules explaining the logic in the thought behind all this, which could pose a problem. We'll talk about later for a jeep pie and the Trump FCC that to get past, but the day it was a huge huge surprise that came out of nowhere and an enormous victory for net

tragedy advocates and fur, oh boy, and his administration. It became one of these signature acts. I guess her watershed moment for the Obama administration, because he campaigned as a net neutrality order and then, finally, in a one year the last year of his presidency, his FCC just drop the MIKE on net neutrality and said it is. It is done yeah and within that open internet order, one of the first than we did a couple of big things. But the big big thing it did was it Hey, remember way back in nineteen, thirty, four, the communications act. We think we can actually reclassify broadband as what we're gonna call a title to tell

communication service right. So remember earlier, when we said they split it up and the two buckets this all changed a couple years ago when they can now classify you know, Verizon or Comcast as Telecoms service, which again means it's a common carrier and much more. Regulated? Yes, oh there s he see was like. Oh, we can't tell you what to do if your classified as an information service well you're, no longer classified as that. Your clarifies the telecommunications service now and we are up your rectum. It's so interesting that this, like we ve, seen the birth of this industry. That, like is being figured out in full view, or maybe not always hold you sure you don't say no yeah, like known it still is still being molded right now area. You don't really interesting. So there was. There was the first thing that the two thousand and fifteen open internet order debt write reclassified. The irish peace back to tell me

patients, there's really it took them out of the same league- is Youtube and Netflix in all these these. Content providers on the web and said is actually handle the nuts and bolts of at you. You don't handled actual content, so your telecom. Now then, it is the second part to which was basically saying were we then the net is now neutral, were instilling net neutral, the values onto the internet as the FCC yeah and will do

in three main ways: no blocking you can't block lawful content, kept black services. You can't block applications, longs its lawful and legal content. You can't block it. You can't throttle it to me throttling, as a weird word seems counter intuitive Castro thought throttling. I think, means you speed something up, but in this case it means you can't slow something down. Yeah. Basically, I would say breaking right and not throttling yeah Lange on top. You have but throttling basically means as a I'll pay. You can't come in like routine matter aliens, and you know what your competition Netflix to our Comcast services. So we want to make sure no one can stream anything very well right, so we can see you down and then the final one was no paid prioritization. So no fast lane, he had a cat, though you can't pay someone to juice up your site, right, so that you can get an edge over the competition which I mean like if Netflix

you in there to Amazon Prime nobody's really shouldn't a tier like Amazon, primer, big kids and they can handle themselves. But if you're, you know, developing the next stream video app and you d have the money to to compete against Netflix it yeah that'd, be huge disadvantage. Urine and has been pointed out, is a potentially stifling the two new technology near future. So I'm one of the things that the FCC two thousand fifteen rule said were that I, as peace, have to behave in a cool just in reasonable man. I think you said that right now I didn't ok. Well, they do that the air. They also said: hey everybody from Youtube to you, two guys. If you see- and I M p behaving in an hour,

just an unreasonable manner. Let us now, even if it that, if it's not illegal, if you think it's just an unreal let us now and we will look into it and I, as peace were either hurried fear cc. It was so there was a really big theme or we'll talk about it, a little below them, about why it is such a big deal, in a minute but then one of the other things that it did too was. It said this also applies to wireless providers before like in two thousand and ten, when the FCC introducing the some net neutrality rules. There were challenged by rising core and were overturned by the coordinators and fourteen, and one of the things that they did was it exempted wireless carriers, wireless eyes, peace from these the laws I again because they wanted to promote. They wanted to promote growth in that industry, like no one's ever gonna use your phone to stream content. I think they were hoping

people would here and that regulation might hamper that right, so that cannabis this up to speed and where we are today enter object, pie. Who is he was a former lawyer for Verizon and is the head of the ECB Cc under Trump and heat, like I said before, he favours what he calls a light touch regulation, which is basically pre title too, reclassification right that, basically, if you are on, if you are an ice p, you are going to be subject to the laws of competition of capitalism in those will keep you in line and the SSC doesn't need to be involved in the more that he sees involved. The more stifling these regulations will be, and basically the whole area that will break it as he sees involved. Yet his theory, I watched

interviews with him in his theory, very smart guy. His theory is that if we deregulate and cannot make it wide open, then people in because more rural areas of the country will benefit, because if we have all these regulations it might I for their internet and we want everyone to have like good, fast internet, and he believes that the way forward is through not regulating doubt on that, would probably be people in rural areas like we're. Not gonna bother putting infrastructure in these rural areas, because it's not worth our time and effort to get Ellida. That's what he said. So, there's a there's. Actually I'm another thing that

it's more expensive to lay that cable out to those people. Well, I think his his argument is that investments in this infrastructure would would dry up because of these rules, which in turn would like the first people lose out on. That would probably be people in rural areas like we're, not gonna, bother putting it structure in these rural areas, because it's not worth our time and effort, Ellida, that's what he said. So there's a theirs Billy, I'm another thing that addresses that dates from the old tell days a camera. What it's called is like a universal find, but it's basically where but to rural area right so that people out in the sticks had telephones, there's a there's a bill right now. Our proposal in the Sis II that was prepared.

Bill back in the day, there will be a line item that said, like the universal something find bright, and it was three cents or seven cents, or something like that, something you couldn't care less about, but put together with the seven cents from all the other phone users- older headphones, you had a pretty decent amount of money and that money was was taken to guru too, to create structure out to rural area right so that people out in the sticks had telephones, there's a a bill right now. Our proposal in the FCC that was put, I was by the Wheeler Assisi about creating that are continuing that same thing, not about a draw with broad back right. So I mean that's: there's a soul! she's right. There's everybody paying an extra few sense so that People on rural areas can get that can infrastructure and its the tax payers, paying the peace to go away, that cable for

boy in rural areas. Here he also says, because one of the one of the things alot of people talk about her the harm that can be caused by the city regulation and there are examples even which will go beyond a minute, but he call those else's hypothesized harms and even the said. A solution that wouldn't work title to is a solution that wouldn't work for a problem that didn't exist So when, in this interview I saw and pr when they sat down and gave him examples of what can happen, he said well, this has happened that nothing has happened. He said that these are our single eggs, apples, and he said to me it would have to be. There would have to be widespread evidence of this kind of price.

One. In order for this kind of regulation to be enacted by I gotcha, which you know, maybe it would be more widespread if there was no regulation. So well, that's the fee accident path. Since I guess that's the fear that they want you, you know, take the take. Take the bridle offer the irish peace you know, they're gonna run rampant and again,

These are multi national companies, thereby providing most of the access to the public internet in America, and you know the western world. So you be it's. It's not foolish to think that they're going to very quickly consolidate as much power as they can with the new less restricted freedom to do so, there would be given if you roll back the two thousand fifteen rules near and a lot of people point out too, that if you look at the period from ninety ninety six, two dozen five wildfires peace were classified. Telecoms. The internet still boomed embarrassed. We had a bubble. Internet stock bubble happen even pretty early on in the inner as we know it today develop during that time. So the idea that it is stifling area would stifle that growth, classifying eyes pieces telecom,

seem to hold much water well and when you talk about investments, infrastructure account depends on which studies you ve looked at. Some have said that it, it has already like pie, pointed to twelve, I think, over the two year period since the title to went into effect the twelve major carriers of had five percent reduction in infrastructure spending, and then you can cherry pick another study. That might say well, yet these companies actually put in more money and invested more money right. So I think it in either case it's probably a correlation in causation argument, ye you know, maybe you can't necessarily say it's because of the the different classification right and so the numbers we have or not so great- that the theirs is lobbying group called them. U S telecom and their number show, that the infrastructure investing. This is new fibre, cable or upgrades to exist.

Then cable, being laid in the United States, the broadband infrastructure that these spending by the big twelve I asked he's, went down by a billion dollars between two thousand fourteen into doesn't fifteen in the The idea is that, because a reclassification, the, U s- senses Piero said Actually, no, our number show that between two thousand fourteen into doesn't fifteen, these spending on infrastructure went up by six hundred million re. Not that not that much. But it was an actual increase in this really really important chuck, because, if you are looking at net neutrality in the battle over it from the legal standpoint infrastructure is going to be. The crux of the argument because there is a law passed back in nineteen, forty, six, a camera, what is called, but it basically bans federal agencies from making capricious rule changes, which is basically like four If exactly the situation that we are right now you have one administered

Mary making one set of rules and then or two later, philosophically different mill administration coming in and completely changing those rules. Well, to do that, then the new administrations regulators, have to prove Why is it a good idea to change these rules? They can't be capricious right and so observers of this battle. That's going on right now are saying: probably pies going be using the infrastructure, the drop in infrastructure resting as his reason. Why he's going to point to say, look man, this title to classification, lead to abuse, in dollar five billion dollar, whatever billion dollar drop in infrastructure investment, it was a bad idea reverse the rules, and if you can do that, then the rules probably will be cheap. The net neutrality will be roll back, but the figures are in yet for two thousand

Sixteen, so no one actually knows if overall spending on infrastructure declined or increased, her stayed the same road. That's probably gonna, be there so the legal argument about changing the rules. Back, you're, gonna, break sure right, we're gonna, take a break and hopefully will get your Josh. They lay the cable. It leads to more times as well Why, hey everybody. I want to talk to you about your website that doesn't look good and this hard to program because square space does it better yeah they do square space. Is this amazing magical tool that you can just basically good people

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All right, so we're back ethically still after that yeah like a minute. So before we move on, we should say that this, like we are saying about websites going dark, the the title to is up for grabs again essentially coming up soon, and people are being asked if you care about this one where the other you can leave your comments on restoring internet freedom by going to F, C c dot, Gov and you click on file, a public comment, and then you click on proceeding. Seventeen dash one await restoring internet freedom, and then you can tell me what you think about

yeah and though the comments in and of himself the garden, alot attraction and pop popular culture beckoned to those in fourteen John Oliver, I did a piece I none but says she'll come this week tonight last week tonight. That's right! Thank you, I'm in here he very famously called the battle over net neutrality. Cable, come companies. Mercury and arm he basically a SEC, everybody go! Leave your comments about neutrality in the next day they have sissies website broke buckled under the strain and, ultimately the FCC. Something like three point: seven million public comments about the did. The two thousand fifteen rules, most of em, in favour,

of that? My yeah so arm d, this time around John Oliver Stone another thing: they're gonna broke again, but they This time it was actually a video s attack. It was an attack and there's also been evidence that spam bots are leaving comments as well here when they're, like five million identical comments on the half, a million that half a million yeah there's been about five million total, but they found like half a million from a standby right which were identical comments with I mean I think these real names and addresses right, but think holdings broadly name. They are one of the persons whose name was stolen and used by the standby was a deep sigh himself. He- and this is what it said sat down. The unprecedented regulatory power by the Obama administration imposed on the internet, smothering innovation, damaging the

can economy in obstructing job creation? The plan currently under consideration at the FCC to repeal Obama's title to power, grab the positive step forward and will help to promote a truly free and open internet for everyone. So it's so interesting to me that both sides want the same thing and they just have to very different ideas on how to go about it and yet in someone's right and wrong right. Well, I think you know it's bizarre. At this point, there is, if there's three sides to it, there's two sides that are opposed philosophically over the role of governments and regulation and then there's a third side. The eye is, peace were, like everybody shudder. Stop telling us what to do. We wanted to go, make some money right and we want to see out of our butts. Yes, so what's that we ve come a hit on some of them. But let's talk about with some of the arguments in favour of net neutrality. Are then we'll talk about some of the arguments again

well. I guess the first thing that we should point out is that it actually will prevent censorship yeah when that is what it is feared that won't happen yeah there's a. We didn't say that the M, the name there, a jeep pie and his eyes. He came up with further new rules is restoring internet freedom, rules which is kind of been accused of being new speaker doublespeak, because right Eddie, it's it's basically saying like you know the FCC being then this is where the power grab by the Obama administration and that by getting the FCC out of this whole thing, they were actually protecting. It

censorship, that it was a government grab the internet to try to start the sensory ye right, which is not the case. But why I mean, I guess it depends on how you feel about government regulation. But yet the saying that the two thousand fifteen rules allowed government censorship is is patently raw, DNS ornament and if anything, it prevents it's a ship by the ice peace by preventing blocking and throttling yet another thing that some people is weird. They arguments and counter arguments all like use. Each other they'll say that like no weak, we need the regulation, so we can promote growth in this industry, not stifle it, but when you have net neutrality and place, it keeps set low barrier to just getting

website going and like, like you said before, where it an aged, our anyone can design the next Facebook and if, if let's say you needed a half a million dollars like you, ve, designed it everything's great, but you need to pay an eye s be five hundred grand to get going at a reasonable speed. Then that'll that'll kill innovation right. I guess it depend whose innovation your stifling, if you're, looking at the ice peace as part of the internet as well, then having the internet thrive, having nuth new huge massive traffic driving companies like Facebook, they get a lot of. Or to the internet, to use it in the first place, that's an inherent good, but What you're talking about his is keeping that Unregulated relating the eyes peace, so I mean what are you stifling in there

Yemen is that your stifling infrastructure investment so like high speed, cable being weighed by not me, and then you know getting cable out to rural areas. That kind of thing the I think when you You hear both sides using the same point yet to prove their case. It means to be asked, is afoot somewhere, Another thing that we touched on little bit is like, when we said hey, maybe Comcast as a cable company would want to slow down or throttle Netflix said you know bill, it would not on level the playing field. The same can be said of like a telephone company, not wanting Skype, to become a thing or internet phone to become a thing, and so that is a genuine fear.

Behind the scenes there will be throttling going on yeah, that's a real legitimate fear for two reasons: shock one that its die as peace are starting a branch out in getting into like you said earlier, the arm, the content game, the other content game. I am so so that that rule Y know that that problem, one like free trade preferences, Verizon just bought Yahoo and Yahoo, owns Flickr an tumblr in tumblr by the way used to be at the forefront the Tipp of his spear for net neutrality, advocacy like they were loud him. Mere and then Verizon bought them in all sudden tumblr silent on the subject right, but more to the point. Since Verizon bought Yahoo, which owns Flickr and tumblr it. It told all of its tumblr and

Flickr users that have a Bell south associates area. Eighteen, T Associated email, address, we're gonna, be able to access the flicker or tumblr account anymore. Until created a new user. I d with a using a Yahoo email address the so that's fairly anti competitive. You can make a case, and what's going on right now is eyes. Peace are starting to get into the media game, but it's also happened in the past plenty of time to its already happened. It's been documented there when I, as peace, are freed it too to be anti competitive. They take you up on the offer. Their again. A pipe has responded to those incidents is isolated examples and not enough of a reason to regulate yeah he's feeling is it. It has to be a widespread problem for it to be a real issue, yeah

I mean, I guess it's a position Fisher. That's a position yeah. What about the case against net neutrality so again their stairs? There's that whole investment thing in infrastructure That's big, that's legitimate sure. You know I mean like give. If the irish people say dude, it's just who were not make enough money when I were really unhappy about this regulation, where it we're gonna stop putting money into the America broadband infrastructure, then America will suffer as a result. We want the highest fastest speed

infrastructure. We can get and we rely on the irish peace to build those men charge us money for access using those high speed rout right. That's what I know by though, because they want they want the fastest internet. Is they want your business? They totally do right. Ok, here's the thing like them: everybody when they're talking about this seems to me Dance around this, but yeah. Do the irish peace can make a lot of money charging access. They make plenty of money, plenty revenue, but there also again through the gatekeepers. They they're, the ones who build the simple churches are the ones who has the access to this. These networks built and these these customer base is built and if they are unhappy and they be sour, pushes about it. They can't stop investing in America's infrastructure and America will suffer as a result. In again, these aren't necessarily companies that have an office on main street in Kansas, it Topeka their Multi NASH.

Companies and if they move their favour elsewhere than America could suffer right? It's were were somewhat hostages to their. There went to an extent, but at the end of the day, America's also one of the best it's for broadband access and they want the money of american users, so they are going to keep investing in infrastructure. I think, but it's a gamble and if you, if you're a pole, two federal regular regulation in principle, you're going to say that gambles not worth it like. I dont want to put federal regulation on these guys of it's gonna make them unhappy, because I don't like through further regulation, they don't like for regulation and it could take them off enough that America's infrastructure could start to sag here's. The thing, though, and I dont know much- I'm not an expert in this, but my feelings, when they have to our collude, and none of them do that, because

soon as Vienna them starts, one of em starts. Lay in the cable like Josh Clark. They'll have the advantage and the other was we, like. We gotta start laying the cable cause they're getting ahead in getting faster, well, yeah like they would all have to be in cahoots and say what hey, let's all just sort of make a ton of money- and you say this is how fast the internet is now. So here You just dug up another issue. It's totally true if you have a lot of different iris peas, who have large massive networks, if you have those large eyes, peas, suddenly starting to consolidate which they are, and you have fewer fewer, but bigger and bigger. I as Pga I control large parts of the market to where, if you ve got basically, major I as peace, competing against what their Grady could conceivably do that or any would be tough Rwanda just below

No I'm not doing that. I'm I'm lay in all the cable I'm gonna take off here your market share its possible. If they could do that, but it could also be likely that they would collude not necessarily in an illegal fashion, but you're saying you know what we both kind of agree America's the pits right now we'll wait until the end this change- let's go over to Ireland and invest in their infrastructure. He's got some cash and then I feel like I'm like regulating today can Old Ireland. So it's not like. I think a lot of people think like well. You know this is trumps, have ceased so they're just you know automatically evil and have no real point there. There are they. They do represent a viewpoint of anti regulation, sentiment right right But there's there isn't. There is another aspect of all this chalk that has come:

blown my mind, that is just not talked about all that much easier one or two of the things that the people who were in the neutrality debate are talking about. I'm worried about are dont really actually exist any longer to major things. Yet so internet censorship and a equal access to broadband. Works, but that's not around anymore. Neither of those are around her in internet free from censorship. I should yeah I mean I don't censorship is the right word gazette implies you have no access at all, but what search engines do and what apps do

and what Facebook in Google on Youtube and everyone does in that game as they serve things up to the public that are very much curated according to their needs. I can say worms but they're, not whims there. There their needs is a company. So it's not like there censoring things, but they certainly art I mean like that. You can still find the things on the internet there, not like deleting things and since writings, but there definitely serving up like search engines. Aren't you know that their definitely I'll just their serving up what they want Europe up, because that serves their company best year, whether this year, whether it's like I'm you know, content is more likely to lead to data that they can use to better target you for ads, or there are some instances of very actual centres.

Wherefore activities of twitter can take your tweet down your failure. Its deemed offensive that censorship is put can do the same thing with your posts that censorship so There is a whole group of stakeholders in this whole debate that the media companies that do have the legal and technical ability to censor the internet right by giving the ice PS the ability to send to the internet doesn't make anything any fairer more. Even it just makes things worse right, so that's it dear that are well these guys, canaries, interference or why shouldn't I, as peace, be able to that's a terrible argument near in one of the other big things it's already happening is when we are talking about paying extra money to get your content faster. That's already going on right, so they're already fast lanes. Essentially s exactly that's not supposed to be

by, but it's been going on for a white beard, so Google and Netflix among other companies are basically have paid extra money to connective almost created like us internet by connecting their rulers and servers directly to the I s, peace network servers, instead of saying what will just be routing our traffic, along with the rest of the internet, that they have essentially paid to have their own special fast lane right exactly this has been going on for years there and Google started it well, obviously area as yet the rub. There is a very famous dispute about it that that made this whole concept. It's called peering made a public between Comcast him right and Netflix Netflix as users, and I remember this Netflix was there, their transmission is degrading. Fat area and network

had to go to her eyes and in Comcast and say I knew appear network set up a need to be able to plug indirectly here's a bunch of money hate you guys and they publicly accused. I at least com ass. They think of purposefully letting their traffic back up and not re routing it to make it go faster, so that Comcast would have to come in and give give them money. And in companies are lacking. The sounds of that either well yeah thank the the market, for this has been unregulated for the most part, companies have been ok with it and find with it nice piece or have, because there we have to add. You know an extra router server whatever to to accommodate this traffic when you guys are the ones generating from reading it and profiting from it, and so that this kind of Bin

by that I mean that's. That's that's the part that part of that philosophical divide to with net net neutrality, who's, who should be paying for them the increase in traffic? Well, not only that, but these these deals are worked out between the companies and if the FCC sticks their nose, then all of a sudden there inserting theirself in that process. And in companies are lacking the sounds of that either. Well yeah. I think that the the market for this has been unregulated for the most part, companies have been okay with it and fine with it and eyes. Peas are happy cuz, their users are getting faster traffic and Netflix or Amazon. Prime is happy because users are getting to watch game of thrones faster right, but that's he sees two thousand fifteen rules say We were involved in this now. I remember we said that I, as peace, have tat in a just and reasonable manner. I so Netflix

Now under these two dozen fifteen rules, if they try this again, you can And tell us that they are acting unreasonably and war. Involved, which is it the thing that energy pie wants to roll back cause. He doesn't think that He has any any business getting him. Although these transactions yeah it some hands, really a slippery slope on all sides, if you ask me for sure, but to me the whole thing boils down to do we or do we want to give I as peace, the the ability, the freedom, the black traffic I think I think of them is the switchboard operators. I think conceiving of them is common carriers. Is, is absolutely right and, I think and giving them the ability to to censor blocker throttle traffic, I think, is a bad move Well I mean one thing that is kind of been true: overnight

throughout history is that greed has a typically wins out when it's completely unregulated and it has led to bad things for the end user. Yet what whatever industry that might be prior yeah the companies might went out and but can agreed Greek? Can it doesn't led down the good path for average Joe sitting at his laptop? I think it's true men, and that is what it boils down to do. We trust do we trust them. Do we trust them to act fairly. Yeah us leave it at that. Man well well done. If you want to know more about net neutrality, while you can get all the men you can also had on over to F c c dot gov, and they also allow comments from international people to you not to be an American, but you should check the box that says you're international he's just for your name and address on there.

Don't leave your comment and you can comment member. You can do that until July. What seventeenth Chuck yeah, I think, and then there's comments on the comments that run so August. Sixteen go go. Let them know how you feel one way or the other and since I said, feel it's time for a listener mail. You click on that international bucks, so it will go right into the abyss of the internet I'm just getting a call. This just a very concise stonewall reaction get a lot of good feedback on our remembering Stonewall episode, and I think both of us feel pretty good one great, even a guys. I've listened to and loved your podcast for years, but your recent remit

bring stonewall episode. Compelled me to write you guys. As a gay man, I thought: how can these two straight guys do justice to my community's history? The prejudice I subsequently am not proud of, because you handle the subjects so eloquently so understandingly very impressed on how well you tackle the subject eyes, which should have surprised me since you handle every episode so expertly, but since the subject so close to home. For me so very happy and proud, with a reverence that you gave it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My three thank yous. Yet three thank uses. That's the magic

and that is from Craig Craig thanks a lot for that. We appreciate it. We do feel pretty good about that at those interesting and good and stirring, and all that jazz, so hats off to you right back a few on again touch others like Craig did you can t to us a judge on Clark or as well as care package, can join us on Facebook at Facebook, TAT, complex, stuffy should know or slash Charles, the reach of bright. You can see, an email, the stuff podcast Housetop the that camp and has always join us at our home on the web stuff. You should know doc.

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