When his two daughters died in a tragic accident, John Pollock prayed for a miracle that would bring them back. Less than a year later, his wife gave birth to twins who defied the odds of genetics. The only clear explanation? Reincarnation.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The death of a loved one can feel unfair or even unnatural. We say things like
on two soon or though always be with us, because it's so hard to believe will never see them again:
especially when the deceased person is a child in nineteen, fifty seven
a couple named John and Florence Pollack lost both their daughters in a tragic accident. It was their worst night
where come true and the Pollux would have done anything to have their girls back then,
just one year later Florence gave birth to twins
and the similarities between them
older sisters were uncanny suggest
thing that perhaps the dead aren't really gone. Maybe they're reincarnated
This is supernatural Spotify a from her cast, I'm your hosting
they flowers everywhere
his day I'll, be taking a deep dive into a real unexplained occurrence to try and figure out the truth you can fly
all episodes of supernatural and all other Spotify originals from par cast for free on Spotify this week, we're looking at two cases the Pollack
and, and and alaskan boy named, Corliss Chart Kin Junior in each instance a matching birthmark might be the
key to proving that reincarnation really does exist and that death is actually only the beginning will have more on the twins coming up stay with us. This episode has brought
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in nineteen forties England, a woman named Florence meets a man named John Pollack, the two
fell in love, get married and they run a grocery business and answer,
ass. They attend church now, John,
was raised in the church of England, but he converts to Roman Catholicism with Florence, and presumably
both believe in the tenants of Christianity like original sin baptism and heaven and Hell beliefs. They play
on passing down to their children in nineteen.
Thirty six foreign gives birth to their first daughter, Joanna and fight
years later. Jaclyn is born Joe
wanna in Jaclyn are both healthy and happy girls.
Many sisters, they rarely leave each other sides. They love to play dolls
come each other's hair, but just six
years later tragedy strikes by now
the family is living in the small british town of heck. Some Joanna is eleven and Jaclyn is six. The two of them
walking to Sunday School one day when suddenly a car spins into the sidewalk and crushes them both against a wall?
Joanna and Jaclyn are killed almost instantly
to make matters worse, the driver that hit them was suicidal. She
die, but she was later sent to a psychiatric institute. Apparently it came out.
she just lost her own to children in custody dispute and accord.
to John she'd, specifically singled out Joanna and Jack when on the sidewalk thinking she killed.
Then, as some sort of cars
retaliation, Pollux obviously are devastated. Despite
everything his church believes about the finality of death and heaven and Hell job
I insist that his daughters, we'll be reincarnated, it's not clear exactly when he
in believing that sport, apparently he tells it to Florence and continue
to insist like he knows, he's pushing her buttons and its honestly. Probably we
to him too, but he can't help, but he just has this feeling forms is a bit more pro,
to call. Of course. She would do anything to have her little girls back, but at a certain point they need to let go so she packs of the clothes and toys and begins to
bon and an early nineteen, fifty eight less than a year after Joanna and Jack ones, death. She becomes pregnant. This
riles up John even more. He is convinced that Florence is pregnant with
their reincarnated daughters and that she's gonna had twins for dinner.
doktor, like yeah right twins, are medically impossible.
Given her and Johns genetic histories. It's really.
Really unlikely, then, on October fourth, nineteen fifty eight
Four and a half after the accident Florence gives birth.
And sure enough. One baby comes out and then a second two twin girls,
the Pollux name them Gillian and Jennifer. So all right,
The Florence is like, but little free
like how on earth did John predict this. At the very least, it feels like some sort of answer to prayer and not long
your birth. They noticed something peculiar
about the youngest twin Jennifer she's got a birthmark just above her note
which wouldn't be strange on its own except that Jack. When the younger of the two
dead sisters had a
scar. In that exact same spot, you see, it
three she'd fallen on a bucket and gotten three stitches and the left off
scar, looked exactly like Jennifer's birthmark,
The public's also noticed something on Jennifer's left waste.
this one's a tiny birthmark, basically a more but
strange because you guessed it Jaclyn had one
the exact same spot now Joe
probably sees this Ngos. Yes, there's proof. The twins have to be
Joanna and Jaclyn, but Florence isn't convinced for one. The birth marks
only on Jennifer. It's not really evidence of anything at all
So it's got to be painful to just keep bringing up their deceased daughters in this way. So around the time the twins are born.
Florence and John agree not to talk about Joanna and Jaclyn in front of the twins
No, the conversation is probably something like here. We have
beautiful daughters. Let's just be grateful and start over
as far as I know, John does shut up about the whole reincarnation thing when the twins are infringed the pie
let's move out of access to a sea side. Town called Whitley Bay is probably
thus the change of scenery, they need to make a fresh start, but as the girls get older, John
and formed noticed some odd characteristics. First, it's their physical dispositions Jill
in the elder twin is fairly then, just like Joanna the older of the deceased sisters and the younger Twin
Jennifer is bigger and stock here, as was Jaclyn when the girl
begin walking. Their similarities only intensify the older.
World Gillian walks with her feet turned outward just like Joanna Debt, which again could just be a coincidence
but by the time they are three years old and talking it's not just the.
Physical stuff, anymore. The twin
actually start having memories about them,
only Joanna and Jaclyn would have known first, it's an old box of toys
he's inside of it- are two different dolls. One up
want to Juliana and one that belong to Jacquin and sure enough Gillian claims. The older sisters, Doll and Jennifer takes the younger one. Then the twins comment that the dolls were
into them by Santa Claus which isn't true for that, but it was true for joy.
in Jaclyn. This is just the
first of the strange things that they remember
later when the twins are four years old. The family takes a trip back to Hack SAM,
strolling through their town on their way to a park when Julian Jennifer start talking about a swing said that's inside the park and also a near by school, and this as before,
they can even see them now the twins-
did live in packs them until they were nine months. Also technic
e bay had visited the park before and they probably pass the school. Multiple times the lake,
four year old, remembers things from when they were nine months. All that's just unheard up to Jain its further proof that the twins aren't remembering this stuff from their own lives. He thinks the memories belonged to Joanna and Jack Land before they died as the twin get older, even their behaviour,
you're mirrors, their older sisters
when they learn how to write. Jennifer holds her pencil incorrectly in her face to just like Jaclyn hat, and of course there is the best.
we're dynamics Jennifer
really dependent on her older twin Gillian. She basically followed her around similar to how Jaclyn had been with Joanna
again, like all of this could just be coincidence. A lot of kids hold their pencils in their first when their learning, how to write and taking orders from your older sister, is pretty normal sibling behaviour like none of this is
Proof of reincarnation until
one day when Florence sees Jennifer resting her head and Julian's hands, the girls are talking and ass.
Florence listens. She realizes it's about something that they couldn't possibly have. No
It was never discussed with the girls they're talking about the accident that killed them
coming up. The Pollack twins. Remember their accident
you discover their practices, seek their advice and let yourself become more vulnerable than ever before they,
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the owners manual for important operating instructions. Now back to the story when Florins overhears, the twins there talking
the accident as if they actually lived through it
I'm not sure what exact words they use. But Jennifer's head is laying in Julian's hands and
Julian looks down. She says she can.
See blood trickling down her face from where the car hit her.
This matches up with how Joanna and Jaclyn accident happened,
even though she was pronounced dead at the scene, paramedics had put a bandage right above Jacqueline's eyes.
Obviously this wouldn't be quite so strange. Had John in Florence been talking about the accident all these years, but remember they supposed
We decided not to discuss the crash or their two older daughters in front of the twins, so
there's no way Gillian and Jennifer should know about it with the memory of the
ash seems to play out, even in their day to day lives. When the twins encounter a car on the street, they artist cautious their terrified
and if they unexpectedly here a car start up, they will literally grab onto each other and shake with beer, somehow
the girls even cry out when they see a car thinking that it's coming for them specifically at this point, Florence is just as convinced as John the twins
to be the reincarnation of Joanna and Jaclyn. There's just no other way to explain it. In the early nineteenth sixties, local newspaper gets wind of the poor.
twins and runs a story on that. For John,
in Florence, it's probably validating, but it doesn't help their credibility at church.
around the time the stories published they start receiving nasty letters from other parishioners, a machine
What these letters say or how John in Florence respond, but to get so bad that they decide to leave their church
Meanwhile, their story attracts attention from a doctor, name in Stevenson
No, I mentioned Doktor Stevenson before in a previous episode does I was like the king of reincarnation studies. He spent nearly fifty
years at the University of Virginia Psychiatry Department, as both a professor, an department chair and when it
Mr Reincarnation research- he is one of
the most highly respected people in his feel. Even for sceptics.
In fact, most of Stevenson's work was spent on separating exaggerated cases from believable ones
with any one can determine. The twins are actually reincarnated versions of their older sisters. It's this guy, steed
and get in touch with the Pollux in nineteen sixty four, when the twins are six years old and he again
colleges that Johns desire to see is dead. Daughters again might have clouded his judgment like this could all be job.
On reading ended things and getting for to do it to listen.
It's even with John in Florence is rule it's possible that the twins overheard them talking at some point about the accident, but when
demons and watches the girls behaviour he is unable to abuse,
their memories himself, because at this point they pretty much disappeared.
No, this is pretty normal in cases of possible reincarnation, according
doktor Stevenson, children almost always completely forget about their past lives at some point between ages, five and eight. It's all part of a
author phenomenon called childhood amnesia. Basically, the older, a child,
the more they lose their memories from just a few years before. In fact, it's
not until about age, seven, that their able to store and retrieve memories like adults
it stands to reason that at a certain age, their memory of a past life will just slip away.
Lee, there's one thing of the twins: that Stevenson is able to test and that's their genetics,
Stevens and doesn't run this test until nineteen. Seventy eight, when the twins are about twenty years old at this,
Gillian and Jennifer know the whole story themselves, and while they can't remember that part of their childhood, they also don't discredit their parents and apparently,
their curious because Doktor Stevenson arranges for them to come in for lab test to determine whether there identical or fraternal twins,
now you're like me, it's easy forget witches, which so, basically, if a pair of twins is fraternal, it means that they have different sets of dna from each other, so their differences. Both
Physical and behavioral can all be explained by genetic
The same way, any pair of siblings can look and act very dissimilar, but if the twins are identical,
it means they share virtually if not the exact same dna, so the Pollack family,
Doktor Stevenson, all wait for the results and sure enough Gillian and
Jennifer are identical
They have the same dna, so they should.
Look exactly the same, but they don't not
Lee. Is there the birthmark thing, there's the different?
no you're probably wondering what does this have to do with Joanna and Jaclyn, and
obviously doesn't prove that the twins
are the we of their older sisters, but it does,
I mean that the difference in their birth marks the fact that Jennifer has to birth marks, whereas Julian has nine defies the basic laws of genetics.
According to Doktor Stevenson Gillian should have the same birth barks as her identical twin Jennifer, and yet she doesn't, it turns out
that people sharing matching birth marks or scars the chances of that are really low about. Why
in one hundred sixty the chances that to birth
occur in a single occasions, one in twenty five thousand
in other words, Jennifer. Jaclyn matching birth marks are an incredible coincidence, but in the hundreds of case
is that Doctor Stevenson's investigated matching birth
parks like the match to Jack
scar are present in roughly thirty. Five percent of them
so there's gotta be some sort of connection and like
before the Pollack twins aren't the only case involving birth marks and possible reincarnation, and they definitely aren't the only
case where a child seems to be an exact replica of a deceased family member.
This takes us now to Angolan Alaska. In nineteen. Forty five
a year before the first Pollack daughter Joanna was born, there's an elm
really fishermen and anger, and by the name of Victor Vincent all his life. He spoke
then with the pronounced stouter and in his old age.
age. He has fairly advanced tuberculosis. He doesn't have long to live now
sure is a member of the twin get people and they have
one of the most intense beliefs in reincarnation out of any other indigenous group in North America. So it makes sense
He not only assumes he'll be reincarnated some day, but he
a believe about who he'll be ring.
about a year before he dies Victor decides to visit his niece Irene at her home in Sitka Alaska. There talking, and he tells her a little secret- he says quote
I'm coming back as your next son. I hope I don't.
Other than as much as I do now.
Your sign will have these scars end quote. Then Victor live
sub his shirt and shows her two very specific marks on his body, one
is on the upper right side of his back. It's probably from a biopsy.
Or draining of along abscess the US
is near the bridge of his nose underneath his right eye from an operation he had to remove a tear, sack he's
that when he reincarnate Irene will recognize him. Because of these two marks in this
king of nineteen, forty six victor passes away.
A year and a half later Irene gives birth to a baby boy, his name
is Corliss Chalk and junior after his father, Irene, husband and joy,
As Victor predicted, the boy is born with two distinct birth marks in the eggs
exact same location as his great uncle victors
even more incredible, the one
Quarrel is his upper back? Doesn't look like the kind of mark a baby should have at all like
it's a long gated and has these periphery all kind of Chris
crossing marks that look like faded stay.
it's just like victors. You
could say that the coincidence must somehow be attributed to genetics book coral is only victors Grand nephew so that
of them. Sharing similar dna isn't impossible, but it's pretty low and remember
Victor's own marks born even genetic.
They were the result of two different surgeries. There's no
way he could have passed them down through DNA. With the marks on correlates, his body aren't the only things Victor seems to have happened
down because later, when he starts talking quarrel,
tells his mind that his real name isn't actually Corliss instead
He insists that his name is actually Cody and I,
and is dined because cocoon
He isn't just some random name. Her toddler made up. It was victors official telling it name coming up.
Horrorless becomes more and more like victor. This episode has brought you by blue apron dinner time, should helping unwind not cause more,
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Oh today, now back to the story,
We clearly says his real name is Kekui Irene, can't believe it she,
in giving quarrel is a twinkle name before this and it's unlikely.
He would have known his uncles. Later.
She brings it up to one of her aunts, presumably Victor Sister Anne.
Response that, just before poorly
birth. She had a dream that Victor was on his way back to live with that. No this part could just be coincidence, like its past
will that Victor Sister was influenced by the twin, get belief in reincarnation and that she had been thinking about her brother coming back, which is why she had the dream.
Coral is two years old. He
his mom or walking to the docks insecure when he points to a woman in the distance and she's pretty far away.
first Irene doesnt recognize her, but Corliss does he gets really.
Site like bouncing up and down. He start saying things like there's my susie and
sure enough. The woman is Susie Victors Step, daughter
Gorlias, gives her a big hug and he continued
repeating my Susie, my Susie, he even
first to Susie by her telling it name, which is just what we
its everyone out
but some time later, the same thing happens again correlates
I'm a man on the street in Sitka and says there is William. My sign
and sure enough, it is victors sign, William
These kinds of sightings continue over the next few years, with a total of seven people. Victor would have known once its victors widow another time. It's his friends,
coral is recognizes them all.
He even uses the pet names that better had called them, despite the fact that supposedly he'd never even met them before a few of these incidents happened without Irene Press, and so we can,
even say she was beating him information on the spot, like Corliss acts
Lee knows this stuff, as Corliss rose up, he combs his hair.
the same style as Vincent he's left handed like Vincent
and he teaches himself the ins and outs of boat engines, a skill neither his father or mother have an interest in but big Der who
as a fisherman did, but to me
the weirdest and most convincing part is that Corliss speaks with his uncles, exact stutter, remember, Richter had said,
quote. I hope I dont stutter then as much as I do now. End quote and just as Victor had wished for
coral is his stutter bathes as he gets older. It mainly shows up when he gets excited, like the Pollack twins
wireless, his memories of the people and nicknames from victors life pretty much disappear by the time. He's nigh Doktor Steve
sin is able to interview Corliss as a teenager, but by then
remember what it was like to recognise: victors, family and friends or thinking his name was Cody and doktor. Stephen.
It can only tracked down one of the relatives Corliss spotted as a little boy
the others have either passed away. Org declined to comment which
that's a little suspicious, but there's still the birth marks, the one
releases back, has gotten darker and the one his nose ships down a little bit with age but other than that they're the same, no, I said
before out of the hundreds of possible reincarnation cases, Doktor Stevenson. Studies over a third involved
marks in some way unfold,
Currently there is no proof that matching birth marks exist because of reincarnation, but there are other theories
It has to do with an ancient belief, called maternal impressions. Basically, this
is the idea that a mother's emotions during pregnancy can imprint on her baby, causing birth marks and other
physical abnormalities, the ancient Greeks when so
far as to believe that if a mother looked at her figure like a painting or a statue for long enough, her child would grow up to look like it
like if Irene Shotgun spent enough time looking at or even thinking about her uncle victor, his scars would imprint on her fetus
worse. His idea has been used in massaging a stick and as ways as a way to blame mothers for their children's disabilities and obviously there's zero science behind it.
there's even an old superstition that birth marks are the result of ignoring your pregnancy craving so like if you're really hungry for pizza and you don't eat any pizza, your child
could come out with a birthmark in the shape of a New York slice,
we do know about birth marks is that they usually come from an overall growth of cells or blood vessels in the womb. But we
We aren't sure about much else make
is good of an explanation. Is any end if popular
It is any indicator, it's totally possible
tourism is the world's third largest religion over one billion people believe in it and
Coordination is a central bully, basically
goal in life is to create good karma in
to advance to a higher more elevated stage in the next life. If you
have good enough karma and you keep advancing been eventually you'll die once and for all
all achieving ultimate blissful union with God. The process takes. Many
cycles, some estimate up to one hundred so until then, whatever
don't achieve or accomplish in one life you'll bring to the next. In other words, you get a second chance,
that may sound almost two ideal, especially
cases like the Pollack, twins and Corliss Chalk and where supposedly they were
turned to their own families, but a court
two psychiatrist Doktor Walter Simcoe. This is how it's supposed to happen.
Doktor Sim Coup is basically the follow up to even Stevenson in terms of well respected, reincarnation researchers. He believed
that when our souls reincarnate, we do so intentionally with member
of our so called soul group.
In between there last life and the next soul. Group members will actually meet up and coordinate
location of their future reincarnation. So there sure to cross pats on earth so like
You and a loved one could actually be members of the same soul group who planned to reincarnate as like best friend,
there are even siblings. In other words, death isn't b
and of our families or relationships, and think of how comforting that my speech
especially if you're, a parent like John Pollack,
your young daughters have died in a tragic accident, but you can picture them
gather deciding that they'll be reborn back into your family. Who knows, if that's true
but if you think about it that way, maybe death isn't as unfair.
air or unnatural, as it feels
It literally just our loved ones going on before us as planned,
and when we say will always be with us, we're right
thanks for listening I'll be back next week with another episode for more information on the Pollack twins and Corliss Chalk can Junior we found Doctor
Stevenson's book. Children who remember previous lives extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes
supernatural and all other Spotify originals from par cash for free on Spotify, and if you like, the show follow at par, cast on
spoken Instagram and at Parkhurst Network on Twitter
supernatural stars, Ashley flowers and is a Spotify original from part cast its executive produced by MAX Cutler
sound design by carrying Murphy with production assistance by IRAN, Shapiro Carly Maggie
this episode of supernatural was written by Stacy, leaning back with writing a
by alley. Wicker fact checking by on you barely and research by Mickey Taylor,
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Transcript generated on 2021-03-04.