Pete Morrison from Bohemia Interactive Simulations joins the show to talk about what goes into creating simulated worlds for military training and how that work could be part of the foundation for the metaverse.
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welcome to textile production from I heart, radio hey there and welcome to two extra five year Hose Jordan Strickland, I'm an executive producer with I heart radio and how the attack aria you know
a listener, so I've been tuning in two texts off for a wild know that I haven't really been terribly enthusiastic about the matter. Verse
Whatever that may end up being, I think the main issue for me is that I recognize how that
you we're very early on in the hype cycle like we're. On that steep,
why we haven't rounded the peak of hype yet, and
I had to go down the like the slope of
realization of what the reality is actually going to be, and I think until we start going down the other side, I'm just seeing
many opportunities for folks to get taken advantage of.
They're on purpose, or you know just
incidentally, but that means that
I'm focusing on the near term. That's really what has been concerning me. Clearly, the men of earth is coming weather,
I wanted to or not so maybe I need to take a moment to really think about
but that's going to look like once it has arrived. You know to know that yes, the road to get there,
is going to be a bumpy one?
but that doesn't mean that the destination isn't worth going to necessarily so too
help me get.
Out of my, you know, blinders to get out of that hyper
focus. I have on sort of the issues right now. I invited beat me,
a sudden onto the show. Now peat is the chief commercial officer at bahamian, interactive simulations and p
It has been working in the military simulation game pun intended for nearly two decades
and I wanted to first get an understanding of what he and Bohemia Interactive do and then,
the transition to talk about the concept of the metaverse, because what PETE does
in many ways serves as the foundation for what we will see in
fully realised general purpose metaverse. So what follows is
conversation with PETE. I hope you enjoy it.
I want to start off by just saying thank you for joining text off. It's a pleasure to have you on the show that you are really excited to be here, and I can
wait for us to talk about simulations and and what what Bohemia Interactive does
but I really want to start off just by saying
how did you get into this world? Did you come at it from like sort of a a
video game fan,
effective and then develop into a career. Wasn't something that kind of evolved
At the same time as your studies. What's your
journey story.
right, so I started out as a gamer.
I guess in the late nineties, and discovered pretty quick,
pleased that always having more fun creating the games than I was having playing them.
My mom actually got me.
become programming when I was still a high school and I was using the Commodore sixty four or criminal one, twenty eight. What have we had- and I was always put upsetting- to build these computer games in it
The domain that I fell in love with from a very early age,
and then later, when I joined the army
and thanks to my mother, I was actually intended to be a plumber. But my mom push me in the direct.
destroying all me they put me through
Firstly, where I did computer science and I was involved in a bigger gained
women's there and then in the army in the australian army. I was actually in charge of people who did simulation and always one of the people
in the very early days. It wasn't just me
You had the idea that we could apply computer games for military training. Specific, specifically collective target
training and I started working with vps virtual battlespace, which is the product created by the human of simulations.
of without since about two thousand and four and I've been with the human of ever since I left the army in two thousand and five
as a gamer. I've had a very rewarding career,
wow and then
for those who may not remember the nineties. Some of my listeners are young enough where they didn't experience them.
that that was right around the era where we started to see the mod space really take off. You know you started to see, games and like in like the the doom and
spears where people started to create level editors and entire
mods of the game that just completely transformed the game, in fact some games that emerged out of that era,
started off as a mod of a previous game. So was that
The world you were in when you first started kind of tinkering with the stuff.
Yeah, exactly and so are older people like myself, would remember operation flashpoint, which came out
In two thousand, and one and
modding community formed around this game. In fact, one of my best friends was one of the hackers
time my business partner, who pulled apart the far formats in and started to build some of the level editors for operation flashpoint
I run a morning, so
to the operation flashpoint, editing center. I'd like to say like to think that I was a little bit famous
it was, it was pretty big and we had to stop running the ice and it was really really enjoyable. I love the operation flashpoint notifying that computer guy middlemost
me my college degree. I was so much time in that in that computer game, but it was
that same game engine that we took back to the military,
years later, that that same oppression, flashpoint based engine, it's called real virtuality, and I
initially hired when I started the business in two thousand and five or so the people that I knew from the morning community like I knew
pizza delivery person in seattle- and he was a really good,
are creator and an mod editor and actually brought him to Australia to work as one about
you, employees and that's why I went from I my first workers.
The people in you, the computer guy, so my career and my business was a testament to the power of the modding community,
That's only got stronger since then, and you,
touched on it already. But can you tell us a little bit more about exactly what Bohemia interactive simulations does like
what is their mission? And you know Tulsa
bit about some of the stuff that's been created through there.
Right, so behemoth aren't simulations is a very interesting company and to go back to the start. We
An offshoot of the interactive studio, the created that operation flashpoint computer game
Since then they've created many big hits so to speak
the army, Series, Daisy,
He was huge for them, which is his zombie game, created by Dane Hole that was also by
upon the same engine, and there was an australian. It wasn't me and a strange annulment who had the idea of building this first military product based upon opera
flashpoint and I was in the military or the time actually left the military. When I saw the potential that technology and I wanted to get on board
and we started to build a version of operation flashpoint that was specific for the military training and
not training, a soldier how to use a rifle or how to drive a tank. It's really training them. How to think
putting them into scenarios where they can play out training vignette too,
rural learning points now when you see the soldiers using this computer guy, I'm not technically allow to supplying but they're playing the game,
they're playing the game. It looks like they're playing call of duty from an outside observer,
but what they're doing is navigating communicating thinking making decisions.
making mistakes in a very safe cost, effective environment,
and the idea, is to reduce the amount of time than it has been. Training in the field. Teach them lessons
They might otherwise learn in a more dangerous environment, potentially even in theater, and
Few games have been fed
we successful in this particular type of role,
today, the human right you simulations is a much bigger company. When I started I was there. I was the second employee. We now have three hundred twenty three and thirty star in
six or seven studios around the world we provide
software to the: U S, army, the? U S Marine Corps, Uk Ministry of Defence.
with NATO. Now there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers,
Try to cheer using vs, which is
based entirely on a region.
Your computer guy, which have modified heavily over time. I have to say it compared to college you d o battlefield, it's sort of boring
because you don't want soldiers to be at a jump in the air to jump over a rocket launched rocket, launched rockets that are coming at them?
welcome to beyond the able to move at a certain speed. You want them to be fatigued.
you want them to be a little bit inaccurate. You don't want to be out of snipe at at four hundred meters at a moving target in the real world, it's very hot to hit, but the overall,
What unique, what we do? We were the first company to to really
can't you do this
today. We continue in contracts with outdated AL engine multiple times our rendering engine multiple times to keep. It consists in which people are quality,
here were used all over the world. Have a proud of
what a fraction flashpoint has begun. My favorite computer game, the fact
So using elements that original engine is, is pretty amazing that
the phenomenal- and I love this idea of being able to use
a virtual environment too
simulate things that that soldiers will potentially actually encounter in the field, but in a way that is safe and replicable, so that you can.
the mistakes without the obviously
the world heavy consequences that come with making those mistakes when you're actually deployed.
and being able to learn that that sense and be able to actually understand the con.
Quinces of certain action
I assume also that, as as since you've been doing this for Hertford
more than a decade a decade and a half that that things have changed quite a bit in the way of that militaries conduct various operations, everything from updated equipment to
you, the the different kinds of theaters that soldiers find themselves deployed and have used. Have you seen a pretty dramatic show
over those years. Or has it been fairly steady,
certain things have changed and certain things have try is Thursday, stay the same. So if you look at
how much basic training tasks shoot, move communicate. Those are very similar to what
it was even twenty years ago when I was in the army Thetis that we operate,
equipment, has changed dramatically and the capabilities of the equipment. For example, are you ivies? I mean you might be seeing some of the footage coming out
you crying. If there are you a vase everywhere, drones everywhere, and this is a fun
the metal change in the way that our forces operate. It affected Dotterine its affected a lot of things, and so with been doing a lot
work to simulate those talks of devices and even experiment with
They stopped at a voice within Vps, allowing soldiers to figure out how do we work this new equipment into our tactics? It makes and procedures
So, yes has been a change in equipment that the basic doctrine hasn't changed a lot. If what you saw just all does what an effort should, if decided,
and then when it comes to the
occasions. We are operating what we heard
very strongly about two thousand and twelve. Was it
which we wanted a whole experience. They didn't want a level they didn't want a map. They wanted to go anywhere.
A planet at a moment's notice and
two thousand and twelve. That was
pre star, citizen pre? No,
and sky the idea of having an entire procedural planet that you could just go anywhere on the planet and immediately stop training or playing.
That was very early days, so we actually vested in that. You know
We have a blue engine and we built a game engine that supported that so within videos forward,
release you can go to Africa. You gotta Europe instantly and is quite a good representation of that part of planet earth.
out of the box and, of course, in the gaming space, and yes, I still play a lot of computer games. This is this. It become commonplace. I mean the lightest ass. It drops are amazing that the technology they have for going to different people
and what's changing now is access to the cloud. So we have a lot more differ
data sources that we can pull from down into the game to create high fidelity, varmints quicker yeah, I would argue,
we're still in a priest, our citizen world, but maybe that's because waiting for the full game of finally lighted recently I have not, but I have also been have also been that guy
the person who is like
how many years of it have I been hearing about this. I know that the DE there,
I've, been releases of a significant content, it's one of those where
as someone who covers tech and and games occasionally there, there tends to be
this, though certain certain game
because have tendencies to really drive up
expectation not just of what you're going to get, but when you're going to get it
and star says- and I shouldn't just ass target, because it's by far not the
only one I can think of one game maker in particular, who has quite the reputation for driving up expectation and then perhaps under delivering.
But getting back to this, I wanted to ask
but more to kind of get the the sense of the scope
of the simulations there were talking about here, like typically how many people can work,
of these simulations support simultaneously,
so
Now we are typically servicing
battle simulation centers
These are everywhere. U S. Army has eighty seven of them. I think, and they look like it.
Which computer lab and they're full of soldiers- and it's not just
stop he says: there's also tank simulators and aircraft simulators in these massive warehouses, where they, where they train so typically, two hundred and fifty is the maximum number
that, we would put into a single simulation and that's each soldier playing from the first person perspective just like in call of duty. We support
two thousand to three thousand artificially intelligent units. In addition,
in our current construct but as I'm sure
into a little bit later was removed.
What's the the military metaverse we're going to
These are dramatic changes there, but right now that's about what we're doing and that's still I mean I mean anyone. Who's played any like multiplayer online, like first person. Shooter games would understand that two hundred and fifty that's
that's no small shakes. That's pretty impressive! I mean, I know a lot of people who play
The games were when they first come out, have support for may
one hundred or more, maybe up to close to two hundred simultaneous players, but they often they
and are the targets of a lot of criticism, because their tends to be at the drop in
four? Obviously, when you're talking about
Alex that are meant to help soldiers train that drop in performance isn't really that's not acceptable, because you need to be able to have that. That too will be dependable and usable for that purpose. So
to that end. I, like I'm curious. What are what are
do you happen to have some idea about kind of the back inside
stems that are running the software like how? How would you compare that to say
gaming rigs today, or is it because we're talking about militaries? Are we talking about? You know much lower end, but robust computer systems. Now I'm very proud that we
forced militaries all around the world by gaming pieces. I myself have jogging the
we use everything that important graphics card provides and labelling.
Teacher generation capability, which means to automatically creating a high fidelity virtual environment. The ditech kind of gives you. What am I
in trees and grass, most of us have heard about procedural generation now
that- requires a modern graphics card. So we we take advantage of whatever the customer has, and I recommend that the customer upgrade to at least at twenty, a twenty graphics. The for example card, for example,
the vote in port right now, if anyone so
Vulcan, you you'll hear about it shortly at six, then you open, gl2, really exciting graphics, library that
games are reporting to you at the moment gives a lot of really powerful capability to these game engines. So we,
I not recommended military use, what they
traditionally had for simulation, which wasn't gaming tech games
Ecology has just progressed in leaps and bounds, and there was a time I think it was in
Early two thousands
when Silicon Graphics was delivering got a better hardware for gaming.
it was military. There was a
in the space? That's completely different now and almost all of the
big flights. Emulate is that I know of their using new video ex wisely.
And in the gaming space where recommending the video gaming cards as opposed to professional cards, which is good because they getting cheaper
We generally try make sure our software will run well on anything made in the last five years, just like a normal computer game. So we do have it, for
supposed to spend millions of dollars on
if new pieces, but we do expect us to expect outcome
it, has to stay to stay current
we got a lot more to come and we'll be back after we take this quick break with more
crustacean with PETE Morrison of Bohemia Interactive Simulations
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Refined jet get a better car loan. Today, when VR was first starting to become a thing, we saw
early, very proprietary approaches to VR. Then, because the the,
you hit this hype cycle and wasn't able to live up to the hype.
The eyes of a lot of people. There was a dramatic drop in interest and it got to the point where people,
dedicating their work to are suddenly found, no support from
financial institutions to academic institutions and they turned to the video game sector
in order to kind of
You can choose things
That enabled them to continue their work, and we are so. You started hearing about people using all sorts of things like even the consumer tech, like the Microsoft Connect, became of of
an element that visa researchers for interested the wee wee actually was enormously important. So so it's great to see that there are these parallel swear, you might say
not in this very proprietary, closed garden approach, which ought the obviously there there pitfalls to that right, because if the company that makes that thing
goes in a different direction or goes away you're stuck with
a system that no longer has support. It can go obsolete, whereas when you pivot,
to using technology
that is, is marketed not just for the military but for consumer use. You can have a pretty strong level of confidence that you will continue to get that support, and it's
we're just fortunate that the consumer level of of technology has reached a point of sophistication where you don't feel like you're trading off right, you're, not
losing something because you are no longer going in this very focused niche proprietary approach
I completely agree- and I have said many times talking to various customers- it we don't have technology problems,
any more. The technology is there. We have endless.
Few power in the cloud we have been tested, realistic, graphics, it's really nice,
for example, in the bill,
three etc
sometimes waiting for certain
people to move on people who don't believe in game by straining, for example,
the cultural shift that has to happen not just
military, but in many serious game type applications a lot of people still think of computer games as the annoying.
Is that their kids play, though the waste of time I will be like my father,
white, who I love, but
waste. Viewed my computer at home is this kind of waste of time. This box, I wasn't using my hands,
I viewed it into well about future. For me, anytime, future.
It was a portal into a career and
yeah, so it takes times for cultures to change and we've seen that acceptance it'll be quite proud to drive that change in many.
true innovations outside
U S. Military organizations have always been forward thinking
so you've had that problem here in the U S, but in other countries it's it's. It's certainly been an issue,
I can imagine it's so interesting that the convergence of technology was enabling this approach on it,
technical level and it's the buying that becomes the bottleneck for certain
militaries that is really fascinating to me.
It is somewhat understandable. I mean I, I suppose. If you are someone who hasn't had that hands on experience, it can be difficult to imagine that it would have that level of
official effect. Heaven knows we see that in politics as well right, where will
we politicians who perhaps print out their Emil's.
Then legislating tack and you clearly get in the Tec sector- you you feel this, this very intense
its resistance to that, because there's there's this gap between us
since understanding and the way things really are, and yet that person is still given the response.
the of of perhaps legislating that area? So it it's one of those parts of tech that I love.
To talk about even though it's not you, it's not how tech works, but you have to take care of this holistic view in order
then why is tech the way it is now? And why are certain things in tech,
perhaps taking longer than you might have anticipated to get you, how
a larger role out and because people are not like tech,
back in the day when I was first given the assignment of being the tech,
head writer for how stuff works, dot com, which is where I started when I started podcasting and everyone was all of my coworkers- were scared of tax.
They were all were we were all english literature or English majors communications, majors and everyone was scared of it, and I wasn't
And when people ask me why I wasn't scared of a bull because tech either works or it doesn't people that's way more complicated
I agree, and I mean there's a lot of people making decisions related to computer games that don't understand the medium and
that always drives me a little bit crazy as a game. And yet my advice
parents and I'm a apparent is, is to play games with your kids, see what they're doing understand and it doesn't just apply to computer games- could apply to anything
understand, if what they're doing is complete waste of time and I just consuming or they creating if they're, playing ball and craft and their building castles in the air, creating encourage them to do.
That if they modifying computer games like I was encouraged them to do that, don't work
youtube. Videos of other kids playing computer games like that. That is arguably
a complete waste of time, unlike it shut down for saying it, but that's just my opinion
and then in a we, we have the situation where computer games are regularly being banned by a committee,
if people who I believe I've, never played a computer guy for you because of that they get to Farlin tour
and so on and and- and I find that very problematic is as well. You know set these technologies with us is here to stay and when we need to all make an effort to understand it,
two years old and my daughter is doing things that is already kind of beyond me. The metaverse, for example, which will get to I'm sure
I rolled my eyes, but you know we can't do that. We can't be cynical and these technologies are moving
huge momentum and we,
to understand them and and grapple with that and and that's a great way for us to even segue, to talk a little bit about the metaverse, and this is going to require a lot of extrapolation on your part and- and so this is real
the US kind of
batting around our
you're standing of what the metaphors is supposed to be it's a little complicated because there is no firm definition on the matters. Generally speaking, I think the accepted definition is it's a persistent
variation of the internet perhaps accept?
that's it something that is really focused on things like virtual reality or augmented reality as a way to interact with that persistent representation. You have proof
virtual environments, where you can pretty much do the
all the things that you would do in the real world, but you do it online through this virtual environment, whether that's commerce, you're going to concerts you're hanging,
friends are having business meetings, maybe
touring a an actual real world location, either further virtual tourism,
twelve occasions, maybe your virtually touring a house that you're interested in buying like they're all these different potential applications, but the the thing that I keep coming back to is that if
fact the metaverse is going to support all of these and more. It is going
have to be such an incredible.
The robust infrastructure to support that. That it's it's hard for
me to get my mind wrapped around it right now and since we were talking earlier about military simulations and you're talking about samuel-
it's right now they can support up to two hundred and fifty simultaneous human operatives, and then
A few thousand more artificially intelligent ones like that
That to me, is phenomenally impressive. It is also at the same time I would argue,
probably a fraction of what most people are thinking of when there
visiting the metaphors right because their thinking of essentially there thing
ready player, one or
as some other science fiction incarnation of this virtual world.
so, what is your kind of concept of the metaverse? What does what does that? What does that word conjure up
your mind right, sir. I my thinking about them at a verse in the military made of earth has been shaped by an article called the full potential of a military, many of us by Jennifer, Mikado and Caitlin Dormann.
and I do encourage people interested in this and how it might relate to the military to check that out and
It became very clear to me that people are
Tinkerbell about
at a verse, verses mirrors- and there have been
metaverse, is for a very very long time. Gabe Newell spoke about this
recently in a in a in an interview that he did and if we have an online virtual world with you
of persistence, then that could be thought of, as
Metaverse. They quote
Neal Stephenson
I author from way back, and he said it. It's a series of Incan, interconnected and immersive virtual worlds that afford that uses a sense of presence via agency and influence.
that was coined over thirty years ago. So this concept
It is one Lord world, it's it's not it's not new,
But what's interesting about this is the idea of the metaverse, the idea that there would be only one
and this is an intriguing concept within the Miller.
we women connecting simulations together for twenty five years using various wonders technologies. We can connect to flood simulator to aid,
a first person shooter like what we build connected back to what we call-
Interactive Simulation, which is like hearts of iron. Where
is division. This kind of moving around is like onto the mapping in the bill
we've been connecting those types of things together for years and what I think is going to happen over time is that
we'll see the Microsoft metaphors, the Facebook bit of earth and then these things will begin to connect
because unless they do we're not actually achieving the vision of the metaverse, when we don't, we don't actually reaching the promised land, which has a lot of potential right. I mean
why do, I think, is really really intriguing. But the
I'm is going to be that these gatekeepers, that within it
two point out. As of one one, the fights had especially centralized companies was Oda
our companies that have all the data centralized facebooks a portal onto the internet in some countries around the world, for example.
They're going to need to somehow work together or there needs to be
open source,
push that gains enough momentum to actually become its own thing that these be companies have to connect to. So when you think about
the metaverse as an open architecture where there are different entities,
interoperable servers, kind of all interconnected. Vice
I shared and agreed upon interfaces. Then it becomes
interesting prospect.
So that's my thoughts about the measures, and here I am- I took it. There
we're doing in the military just because I think that could be interesting
to go from where we are today. The two hundred and fifty players to with with two thousand artificials intelligent unit
the scale we
are using cloud technologies and we are working as part of a bit
Even the? U S: Army's synthetic training environment and
looking at
in cloud.
really new ways to achieve the kind of scale that the military
for training, but all
so, what you would expect to see in the metaverse eventually
Think container Ized simulation workers. We can scale up the number of artificially intelligent units into the millions because.
cuz everybody's connected directly to the web archive,
instead of being connected to a game server. We can also
likely scale up a number of human participants that are connected into that military made of US soda,
big. So when all the metabolic height began, I was quite proud, especially of the U S, army, who are already thinking ahead and have companies like ales on contract to solve these. These types of problems, I believe,
is that the explorer icon CBS will be the final version that he should have headed to a note,
school game server? The next version of all my certainly connected directly to a web architecture, so you say
some really massive changes, and
is one organization that could make a word metaphors work for itself. It would be the: U S, department of fence,
and I think you're going to see
the parallel development
long waves on a web. Three point are happening out here in the civilian world and I think
quite exciting. It's almost like a rice
it, and I will dive further into discussions about the metaverse or some of the challenges we face, both in the near and long term and more after these messages. Oh wow, oh wow,
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refined jet get a better Carlo today. I think we can learn a lot of lessons through the way that the Department of Defense approaches this continue of evolution of the military matters. I think
those lessons are ones that will be valuable. It's I think, because the the military approach,
I would argue a much more focused view on
what the metaphor says and what's purposes and white needs to do and how it needs to do it
These are all things that are incredibly beneficial when you're, actually engineering it I'll write you, you can start to define your prayers.
What are your? What are your deliverables? What are the things that you absolutely have to be able to do? How can you do it the best way that supports the most people at the same time?
these are all things that are easy, not easy. These are all things that are answerable but like when I look at
Conversations about
a mega, it's more of a general purpose, metaverse. What I lay typically don't encounter are those kinds of
easily identifiable objectives where you could
you like. This is something you can actually work toward like an engineering problem. You can work towards solving and I see it. This could be the issue of the media to
don't want to put everything on all the companies that are working on, creating a metaverse, obviously they're not go.
share everything that their working on right now with everybody? They would be overkill
No one's really certain which pathways are going to end up being the of the the profitable once and I don't just mean profitable from a financial standpoint,
and, and so there I there are a lot of reasons why I think this is, but the problem is falls. The falls on me as someone who's just kind of passionately. Following developments
tat. Is that I'm getting a lot of information about the though it will
vague information about the destination, we're heading, but
very little about the steps that need to be taken to get there? Apart from the fact that now you have people like representatives from Intel saying that, in order to achieve
a really robust metal
First, that allows for things like the r and d are implementation. The Tec we have is going to need to be a thousand times more powerful than what we have today.
again suggesting that if you want to support
a large number of people in the same environment the same time, and we seen them
sort of with VR right now, where I think horizon world
I think that as far as world supports, maybe twenty or twenty five people simultaneously right now, sir,
obviously that would not be that way
give you the feeling of attending like a massive concert, for I don't Metallica or something
I mean it feel great.
I believe, Metallica playing for me in twenty four other people, but but but but it doesn't create the experience of the promise of the metaverse and so
I think there's just this big disconnect between sort of the
the marketing speak in the hype of it and
We actually are, and that to me is that what I like to warn people about, because I fear that, with that lack of
of clarity. There's a lot of opportunity for people to either get scammed
or maybe just engage in speculation, that is probably not the wisest choice, especially if it's you know you pouring money that you can't really afford to lose.
Something the thing to get excited about is is web three point: I
ignore all the noise and
actually ignore what the companies are doing since whip three.
it's it's almost redesign of the internet rounds open technologies like this concept of an open ledger that the technology that underpins
crypto, and I hate saying it, but you know blockchain. These technology have checked, technologies, have huge potential and you you, you sort of need to take a long view or you will get depressed
because in the short term, I'd be crypto and have enough to ease I'm not going to
as in them, because I believe in the short term neck. The kind
like a scam is pure speculation, and I think it's back that enough to ease our scam by you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater
and ignore the potential of these technologies long term, and
three point: o vision is really appealing right and it does
oh against. I think the interests of these companies that want to control the information and at home
information on their servers and and scour through that info.
So they own the data that they can sell to others. Whip with three point always
it is a re imagining it so in some ways of what the internet could be, they called the semantic where bits its is ubiquitous,
we need an it that use artificial intelligence to give you what you need based upon your browsing history, what you're doing
it is designed to do this in a way that that, if my
isn't necessarily like owned by Google
I don't know a lot about it, but the reading that I've done. I am excited about because it's a vision that I think we all can get behind right
if enough people understand the vision and where TIM Berners Lee,
are the internet wants to take on a web. Three point, then,
I think, has a chance. Personally, I think what you gonna see in the short term is democracy
it's in Facebook's kind of doing
Amateur verses, retaining like this is the best at the sight.
climb, as there is almost a community driven with three point. I met Metaverse the begins to take shape and I truly hope that's what happens.
Because I don't want to have to access the metaverse through a single company. I wanted to be like the internet right. I should
to access it through Facebook? I should be able to disconnect and and there I am
if I want to contribute to that, I should own what I create. If I create a new house
whatever design tool, is provided to me the intellectual property of that.
House, should belong to me and that's what you be stored on the open, which obviously is immutable
You know every.
We can see that I created an own that house. So what's the point, I was definitely worth looking at,
when it comes to end, if tease and what's happening in the short term, I mean
There is an amazing I went viral, I think, is Dan Olson's the problem with him and if T's Youtube video and have you seen it and it's an amazing takedown of Nf T's, but it's extremely short sighted. Yet yes, and if T's are really
right now, but the techno
you did under pins. Them is awesome.
so I do worry that people are taking a position with a very short term view when we should be told
about where we want to get too does assets? I tell you make,
I think in I have repeatedly,
are enough teeth like I have, but it's
and on the way that they're being dealt with right now,
just largely as a speculative investment slash
scam, depending upon the actual implementation, some cases it's out and out scams where people are just trying to
YO capitalize on the combination of the fact that there are a lot of people out there. Who are you?
You're too see their money increase and they
have a large ignorance of what in of teeth actually are, and when you have those things bared together, you ve got marks. You got targets for scams, so
I like to have a pretty negative feeling for Mfts at in their current manifestation
I can see the potential benefit of an f down.
road, just as I could see the benefits of crypto
the if it ever emerged from being this speculative commodity and
to an actual working currency. I just
never seen. Crypto
really behaving like a currency. I've seen
behave more like like stocks or you know in
sting and precious metals, that's the way people have treated it, and so it's like the intent of the thing
matter it's how people interact with it once it gets into the real world and- and it becomes a totally different thing so
I agree with what you're saying I also I mean I just recently this past week covered this
worried about how Snoop Dogg acquired death row records
And started to remove some of the albums and songs off of various streaming services, because
of his pronouncement, that he's going to turn death row records into an enough t music label and be the first major music label them
first, another move that I think I would say is perhaps a bit premature right now, but.
At the same time, I can see a world where the music industry,
Tries to get behind the idea of an a 10ft approach.
As opposed to streaming or the classic
load digital store model. I dont know if that's going to happen, but it certainly potentially male it's a possibility with,
let's focus on the metaverse. I also agree with you. I don't want a world where
a massive company has created the gateway to the metaverse or
and I would argue even worse, you could have silos metaphor.
does that don't have any connectivity between them. They could have the Microsoft Metaverse or the Facebook Metaverse, which just kind of creates splintered internets, and it makes me think of like back
before Facebook dominated all of the social networks,
went to wherever your friends were so like. I was a Myspace hold out for a long time cause. I was out of college by the time Facebook came around. I couldn't get into Facebook when it first started, because it didn't have a college email address. I was on.
I speak no second as Facebook, they that's flash in the pan,
and it's never going to be like it's never stick around, but
how it does create like like you.
either get into a scenario where, ultimately, these entities have to work together to integrate their their their interfaces, so that you can pass between these.
Are you get to a point where no, they decide they're going to stick it out there just going to pummel the competent
gin until they're the only one left standing, neither of those are particular
We good for the individual user. I also think
an open source approach would be ideal like having that having a
when agree. You know it makes way more sense for us to all focus on open
her operable standards so that we don't have this painful process. Where
Everyone's fighting for dominance, nothing
is poor,
well from one experience to the other, and
The consumer is just going to left holding the bag,
but a face in the internet.
It's easy to almost go one step below the hype right, so you're in if speculative asset, lots of scans bad
The idea that I have data that everybody can see that data is mine at it.
forever on the internet and copy deleted copy change, like that's, that's kind of cool
tat right so
I was reading about. I always we've all we've, I r w e I v org.
And they're trying to make make it a little bit. I guess makes sense.
in the sense that you could store like an entire document, so to speak, that maybe you can only store like a little bit of text like a u RL in the NFC. But what if you could actually store document? What, if you could store more data?
and there
initiatives that I'm very excited about that are looking at the problems and
try to solve them and do it in an open source way.
so I'm really excited about about that. I think that's
the military just got to bring it back to what the military's doing. You know they going to go a different route. The biggest problem with the blockchain approach is the fact that everybody can see to let you write. There's no concept of security.
one of the things that slows the military down in anything I t related is security for very good reasons. Obviously, and there are very big contracts with certain companies for secure clouds in the like, so I think that figuring out
Air blockchain technology actually is useful and
There are simply ahead.
He's not necessary, is really is really important as as well,
Oh and I think every
Net user is almost a blah,
to do their research a little bit.
I dont understand that people should sort out due to a training course in order to access the internet
and I guess it would start at school, but it would definitely help like everybody needs to do the the training.
My company makes me- do you know twice a year- the eighties game.
He fishing training I feel like a mandatory, especially for grandmothers. I think, really
Again it gets to that it gets that that target.
opportunity for scam, artists right, like ignorant
is is one of the biggest opportunities that that cons have when it comes to pulling off their scam
the more the less aware someone is of something less educated. They are in something
the more likely you're going to be able to take advantage of that
and so, but that we have. We've also seen that in pretty much every
security story. That's out there, you, typically when you really
at the end of most, not all but most computer security stories. You you ultimately
to someone somewhere, fell victim to a trick and that's how
the Hollywood version of someone trying to log into a server and typing in a password getting too
correct ones in the third one works. Almost
where you do have brute force attacks that occasionally happen, but they are pretty hard to do if you're talking about even-
semi sophisticated security systems
or more likely that some
somewhere got compromised one way or another, and we can just apply that across the board for everything, but not just for basic computers, security, but pretty much all like internet etiquette could could benefit from people having that level of
Oh, I understand what the bad guys are looking to do like how they're looking to exploit it and
understanding what they're looking for. I have a better appreciation for various processes. I know that if someone calls me up claiming to be from the I t department- and they want my-
Admin through admin level may login and password probably its best, not to give it to them straight away,
We got a bit more to go with our look at the future of the metaverse, but first, let's take this one last break
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I love this conversation largely because, like I have been so kind of laser,
focus on the issues that I see
the metaverse that it it often can be hard for me to step away from that and say well Lena locate. Yes, there are problems that have to be solved before we get to that destination.
But that doesn't mean the destination isn't worth going to. That's where I I can kind of lose my way. Sometimes I get so focused on
no worrying about big tech,
I too large a role in this or worrying about
the scam artists who are taking advantage of people when there is a lot of excitement around this idea or worrying
companies that might be
investing heavily in a future, but without without a clearly communicated pathway for how they want to get
those are the things that kind of worry me just cuz. I see it as opportunities for this to take
longer than it should honestly, but with you to talk
with you. I feel better about that, because I do think that we are going to get there. The questions just like how much aid
how much garbage are we going to get the go through before hid hit that destination hope
led by the time that we
start seeing met a verse, is like
then use general purpose. Better verses start to really take off I'll still be
interested and I won't have turned into a luddite
hermit who lives in the woods
it's very easy to be cynical about it, especially if you like an old, a gamer where we have all seen. Second life of all played massively multiplayer online games, and the first inclination is too I role when you speak to someone who's
just about the metaverse and they've, never played a computer game in their life, but
technology, my advice to companies that are interested in investing in this area is to look at the problems that we're seeing in the short term.
Curious shoes that the problems within and if these and invents, why
used to solve those problems.
And I mean you probably end up selling a business device.
but ideally contribute to some of these organizations. I these organizations know that's, I think, that's the best
you can do right now, if you're gonna take tech, entrepreneur
delete behaviour. We are looking at the terrain aspect said he
idea that a metaphor
requires one of two types of terrain
either it's a forlorn fantasy land, which is totally fine union it. That's that's what the internet is amazing
or computer guys are amazing for disputing these fantasy land spent, but also there will be a in our opinion, a need for really realistic.
I really really sick, but you left where you
a build your own house in a bit of us in the same location as your houses in the real world, so we are doing a lot on the terrain side. We have a lot of technology related to streaming to ride from the cloud and processing that terrain and
procedurally enhancing it then, and getting it out to to multiple different simulation engines, obviously focused on the military budget.
think about he said outside the military as as well. So I
really do think this is an exciting area and to get involved just jump
wipe, without kind of understanding how many companies were selling blockchain stuff
ten years ago, with no real idea of what that was and yeah, you really do need to to to to look at it. I think, especially,
I had to take a a of smarter than ever and
As I was sort of researching to talk to you, it became clear that it is moving.
so fast. He. It is hard to keep up with it, there's no there's no doubt
play talk to one of my coworkers yesterday and I said the weird thing that I
going through right now. The weird realization I'm going through is that we have like ten years ago, the big concept in tech, like the far off future concept, attack
was the conversation that was just going was about the the
of the singularity, this era
where technology is changing so quickly. You can't even defined the present nice, a here's, the weird thing, because I think, partly because the pandemic, which
forced a lot of companies to go through very rapid evolution. They-
to adopt practices and processes and technologies that
if they had been considering but perhaps was on, like maybe a five year plan and they
of saying well, we gotta do it now, because we have to be able to continue to do business in a world as completely change, and we saw such an incredibly rat
evolution that is continuing because
while the companies are saying well, it doesn't make sense to go back to where we were,
it's way more sense to build upon
what we've learned. Just
trying to get through the pandemic. So
exciting time as it is, if you
to me like we might be in the singularity now it's your baby in the
we in the future will back and say I gather that's what it began. We just couldn't tell because we were too, we were in it, but
but I feel like that's kind of where we are it's not the same,
it's fiction version of the singularity? It's not like we're. All you know
playing shadow run for real and plugging directly into computers and injecting our consciousness into the internet, but but it feels like we, we are almost
in this this cycle of such rapid change, the just defining what's happening now,
is a huge challenge, let alone kind of projecting out. What's it going to be in five to ten years,
Yeah ignoring the noises is certainly hard. I mean within my little industry
but a pipe around hardware as well the lightest, the eye
r m r, I r headset, and
for me personally, what helps is
the ministry industry is to identify what we are trying to do with a hot
business is training. Soldiers do
The soldiers need device ex cloud. Why
in order to train, will it make them trained better, and so for me
get the luxury of doing that assessment against any new texts.
it comes along with bohemian active simulations.
And it's been very interesting to me- to see hype even with-
what you simulation about, for example, via headsets, the hype wrapped up a few years ago. Many many computer games were created
A lot of game developers were very unhappy with the profits that they got from that because the market was so inundated with. Vr games
I think a lot of people were just like me. I bought an expensive VR headset. I played a game. I got a headache. I put it back down and went back to my pc
maybe it's because of forty two to all too caught understand, but the I had sets were a painful experience for a lot of a lot of people.
now here we are today and instead of just
the virtual reality headsets. We now have mixed reality, headsets, where we can similar to Poland's hololens we can.
the virtual in the real world. It's a much more pleasant expire,
As for the operator, you don't get a headache as quickly
and were saying for the first time, for example, pilot saying I'll hang on. Yet this could potentially work
whereas up until one or two years ago the pilots were saying nope unless it's a big dome with images projected on a screen, I don't want to use VR
So we are beginning to see changes, but that these changes come slowly. Gotta come quickly.
And it's very interesting for me to go back and look at presentations from futurists in the past.
it is almost twenty years- and you know, I think, that the the progress has been steady within.
How little area obviously things like social media sort of exploded,
and you never know when the next explosion is going to be,
for me personally what I've done to
this business businesses. Just how do we? How do we do anything,
How do we train soldiers better and if it doesn't do that thing that its use
potentially useful for marketing and that's about it and that's the
approach, I want to see kind of adopted across the industry. I feel like with that approach.
you're able to work toward that goal more concretely,
are likely to achieve the the goal. Then, if you have a more vague
finish it and no one really sure why,
What you mean, and even if they kind of have-
rip on what you mean:
not sure how to get there. It makes me think I have a background in acting and
I once had a director jokingly,
Give me the least helpful direction. I have ever heard
but it was a joke where he Jonathan. Could you act.
More.
which doesn't mean anything at all like it doesn't mean anything, but it was, it did make me laugh
and then later he gave me very concrete direction. That was actually helpful, but that,
that's the way. I feel that a lot of companies are kind of taking this or that's the communication. Again I shouldn't project too much,
the companies a lot of this comes from
press releases which might be drawn up by someone who is working from bullet points, or it might come from the media, where you got
you another degree of separation from the actual source.
I am trying to be a little more gracious in my in in the
We I
analyze the matter, verse p
I have to say it has been a real,
pleasure to have you on the show. I could have you back and we can chat about
computer games as much as you like, I love computer, gets down there their amazing. I still play them. I think I'll, be the guy in the nursing home when on eighty five playing the computer guy, you know I just got it such an important part of my life ever think that I have is the result of computer games.
using people that are behind them, so yeah, I,
recommend people play ball. Games were out of curiosity before I had before. I let you go. What's a computer game that you're a currently playing doesn't have to be your favorite, but something that you go to so
just played space engineers
because I'm a programming background you can actually like programme also in autumn inventions in space interviews. It's like it's like it's like mine, craft
but a little bit more for forty two year old men,
I live. I love computer games that, where you have to create and and I've really enjoyed that I'd,
paying star citizen, which I do recommend people check out. It has come a long way I I've enjoyed it. I've played it for about one hundred
I was- and it's been a positive experience since so
I used to be very pissed
about the chances now, I'm just going to lukewarm so will,
That goes just to more Elden ring. Elden ring, oh yeah. Of course I mean that's the one right now, though I have to play
I know a lot at a big fan of the soul SIRI. So I love I look out and ring and then not have been playing the computer guy Nekabad in Austria, Ringwald, Sir,
to my Australians, you guys got get that guy, but it is. It is fantastic, excellent.
As for myself in case anyone's curious, the game, my go to game because I can play a level and then like bounce off not tonight
do you ever wanted to be a bouncer in front of a nightclub, it's kind of like
first please it's one
those games where you're like checking stuff against data, that's in your hand.
No, I'm not really selling it. The best way here that it's, I really loved those games, and I was a big fan of papers. Please no big fan of the first not tonight, and this one there's a lot of
pretty heavy handed commentary in it, but I really enjoying it your
I saw the amount of Israel
What about what will you do if you dive into the independent gamer
like the stuff: that's just being released directly to the internet and, like you, go to place like a geo or something like that, it is
beyond overwhelming, to see that, like you're going to be spoiled for choice when it comes to innovative experiences
Yeah I'll definitely have to have you back we'll have a rap session about like computers,
games and the various errors in the stand out some things as elsewhere
But for now I should probably let you get back to creating virtual world
and in doing what you do best. Thank you again for being on the show my pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks again to PETE for being on the show. I think it's important to chat with folks who have a different perspective on topics.
a particularly people who are kind of in the thick of things. You know in something that's at least related to that topic. Pete certainly has
Tons of experience, building on platforms that allow for numerous people to congregate in a virtual space,
I don't have that experience so getting his
site was invaluable ally
We have to do a future episode about web three in a web. Three point: zero, which is another.
Tat concept that I have some concerns about. I like the idea binding
three point now. I think the idea is a very strong.
One it actually causes.
and where I think the internet idea
is a very strong one. This job
communications network that Democratize has so much of what previously had been site
mode. However, I do have some concerns that what we're going to see in practice with web three point o will effectively be the same old,
on blade on new instruments and other work
that some new parties will end up becoming the sort of
centralized monoliths of that
the killer, incarnation of the internet or the web, but
but that's another topic for another episode and
I'll, probably reach out to someone who has more experience in that to kind of address some of my
concerns and explain,
where I may or may not be off base. So look for
to that. I don't have anything firm
in the works on that right now, so it might be a little bit before I get it, but I really want to get my had wrapped around the whole thing and just to make sure that the
The concerns I have are either merited or maybe that I its base up a misunderstanding which is entirely possible. I don't magically understand everything right away
but in the meantime, if you have suggestions for good
that I should have on this show in the future, or topics that I should cover on tech stuff. Please reach out to me the best
place to do that is over on twitter
use the handle text stuff each test, w and I'll. Try
Do you again really
Text off is an eye heart radio production for more podcast. From my heart radio visit the eye heart radio, an apple pod, casts wherever you listen to your favorite jobs
it.
Mazda believes we all need more nature in our lives because
You're in riches humans, but on average we spend less than eight.
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Transcript generated on 2022-03-28.