Pete Morrison from Bohemia Interactive Simulations joins the show to talk about what goes into creating simulated worlds for military training and how that work could be part of the foundation for the metaverse.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode of text up is brought to you by state farm as a small business owner Youporn hard to build your business, and our friends at Saint Farm can help protect what you ve built, see every state farm age. It is a small business owner, just like you, so they understand the value of your hard work and how to keep your business protected because it state farm being a good neighbour is more than a slogan. It's a way of doing business, learn more at state farm dot, com, slash, small, business like a good neighbor Statefarm. Is there your car gets you where you need to go but steep loan payments can hold you back at Refi jet. They refinance auto loans to get you moving again with convenient pre qualification technology that doesn't impact your credit score. Refi jet saves people an average of one hundred and fifty dollars
Ray month on their auto loan, reduce your interest rates, extend your loan for flexibility or just get cash back for equity on your car visit, refined jet dot tk. the land more and get started in minutes. Refined jet get a better Carlo. Today, Here's the only found that style herbal when a migraine attacks strikes take ODI T Pan, seventy five milligrams can provide migraine pain relief which can help break the silence nerd because the first and only medication proven to treat an prevent migraines in adults. Don't take your allergic to know the most one side effects were nausea, stomach pain and ended. Gesture for important safety prescribing and patient information visit in you, Aren t easy dot com, Prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life everywhere. Needs a rock, a rock I you turn the far fetched into within reach. When you
I have one you can reach a potential, your dreams, your goals, and when comes to your financial goals? Potential is the rock you can rely on with our knowledgeable financial professionals. We can help you get to new heights plan, invest in sure, retire visit potential, dot, com, Uzi or Rock Prudential Insurance Company of America of Newark New Jersey, welcome to textile production from I heart, radio hey there and welcome to two extra five year Hose Jordan Strickland, I'm an executive producer with I heart radio and how the attack aria you know a listener, so I've been tuning in two texts off for a wild know that I haven't really been terribly enthusiastic about the matter. Verse Whatever that may end up being, I think the main issue for me is that I recognize how that
you we're very early on in the hype cycle like we're. On that steep, why we haven't rounded the peak of hype yet, and I had to go down the like the slope of realization of what the reality is actually going to be, and I think until we start going down the other side, I'm just seeing many opportunities for folks to get taken advantage of. They're on purpose, or you know just incidentally, but that means that I'm focusing on the near term. That's really what has been concerning me. Clearly, the men of earth is coming weather, I wanted to or not so maybe I need to take a moment to really think about but that's going to look like once it has arrived. You know to know that yes, the road to get there, is going to be a bumpy one? but that doesn't mean that the destination isn't worth going to necessarily so too
help me get. Out of my, you know, blinders to get out of that hyper focus. I have on sort of the issues right now. I invited beat me, a sudden onto the show. Now peat is the chief commercial officer at bahamian, interactive simulations and p It has been working in the military simulation game pun intended for nearly two decades and I wanted to first get an understanding of what he and Bohemia Interactive do and then, the transition to talk about the concept of the metaverse, because what PETE does in many ways serves as the foundation for what we will see in fully realised general purpose metaverse. So what follows is conversation with PETE. I hope you enjoy it.
I want to start off by just saying thank you for joining text off. It's a pleasure to have you on the show that you are really excited to be here, and I can wait for us to talk about simulations and and what what Bohemia Interactive does but I really want to start off just by saying how did you get into this world? Did you come at it from like sort of a a video game fan, effective and then develop into a career. Wasn't something that kind of evolved At the same time as your studies. What's your journey story. right, so I started out as a gamer. I guess in the late nineties, and discovered pretty quick, pleased that always having more fun creating the games than I was having playing them. My mom actually got me.
become programming when I was still a high school and I was using the Commodore sixty four or criminal one, twenty eight. What have we had- and I was always put upsetting- to build these computer games in it The domain that I fell in love with from a very early age, and then later, when I joined the army and thanks to my mother, I was actually intended to be a plumber. But my mom push me in the direct. destroying all me they put me through Firstly, where I did computer science and I was involved in a bigger gained women's there and then in the army in the australian army. I was actually in charge of people who did simulation and always one of the people in the very early days. It wasn't just me You had the idea that we could apply computer games for military training. Specific, specifically collective target training and I started working with vps virtual battlespace, which is the product created by the human of simulations. of without since about two thousand and four and I've been with the human of ever since I left the army in two thousand and five
as a gamer. I've had a very rewarding career, wow and then for those who may not remember the nineties. Some of my listeners are young enough where they didn't experience them. that that was right around the era where we started to see the mod space really take off. You know you started to see, games and like in like the the doom and spears where people started to create level editors and entire mods of the game that just completely transformed the game, in fact some games that emerged out of that era, started off as a mod of a previous game. So was that The world you were in when you first started kind of tinkering with the stuff. Yeah, exactly and so are older people like myself, would remember operation flashpoint, which came out In two thousand, and one and modding community formed around this game. In fact, one of my best friends was one of the hackers
time my business partner, who pulled apart the far formats in and started to build some of the level editors for operation flashpoint I run a morning, so to the operation flashpoint, editing center. I'd like to say like to think that I was a little bit famous it was, it was pretty big and we had to stop running the ice and it was really really enjoyable. I love the operation flashpoint notifying that computer guy middlemost me my college degree. I was so much time in that in that computer game, but it was that same game engine that we took back to the military, years later, that that same oppression, flashpoint based engine, it's called real virtuality, and I initially hired when I started the business in two thousand and five or so the people that I knew from the morning community like I knew pizza delivery person in seattle- and he was a really good,
are creator and an mod editor and actually brought him to Australia to work as one about you, employees and that's why I went from I my first workers. The people in you, the computer guy, so my career and my business was a testament to the power of the modding community, That's only got stronger since then, and you, touched on it already. But can you tell us a little bit more about exactly what Bohemia interactive simulations does like what is their mission? And you know Tulsa bit about some of the stuff that's been created through there. Right, so behemoth aren't simulations is a very interesting company and to go back to the start. We An offshoot of the interactive studio, the created that operation flashpoint computer game Since then they've created many big hits so to speak the army, Series, Daisy, He was huge for them, which is his zombie game, created by Dane Hole that was also by
upon the same engine, and there was an australian. It wasn't me and a strange annulment who had the idea of building this first military product based upon opera flashpoint and I was in the military or the time actually left the military. When I saw the potential that technology and I wanted to get on board and we started to build a version of operation flashpoint that was specific for the military training and not training, a soldier how to use a rifle or how to drive a tank. It's really training them. How to think putting them into scenarios where they can play out training vignette too, rural learning points now when you see the soldiers using this computer guy, I'm not technically allow to supplying but they're playing the game, they're playing the game. It looks like they're playing call of duty from an outside observer, but what they're doing is navigating communicating thinking making decisions. making mistakes in a very safe cost, effective environment,
and the idea, is to reduce the amount of time than it has been. Training in the field. Teach them lessons They might otherwise learn in a more dangerous environment, potentially even in theater, and Few games have been fed we successful in this particular type of role, today, the human right you simulations is a much bigger company. When I started I was there. I was the second employee. We now have three hundred twenty three and thirty star in six or seven studios around the world we provide software to the: U S, army, the? U S Marine Corps, Uk Ministry of Defence. with NATO. Now there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers, Try to cheer using vs, which is based entirely on a region. Your computer guy, which have modified heavily over time. I have to say it compared to college you d o battlefield, it's sort of boring because you don't want soldiers to be at a jump in the air to jump over a rocket launched rocket, launched rockets that are coming at them?
welcome to beyond the able to move at a certain speed. You want them to be fatigued. you want them to be a little bit inaccurate. You don't want to be out of snipe at at four hundred meters at a moving target in the real world, it's very hot to hit, but the overall, What unique, what we do? We were the first company to to really can't you do this today. We continue in contracts with outdated AL engine multiple times our rendering engine multiple times to keep. It consists in which people are quality, here were used all over the world. Have a proud of what a fraction flashpoint has begun. My favorite computer game, the fact So using elements that original engine is, is pretty amazing that the phenomenal- and I love this idea of being able to use a virtual environment too simulate things that that soldiers will potentially actually encounter in the field, but in a way that is safe and replicable, so that you can. the mistakes without the obviously
the world heavy consequences that come with making those mistakes when you're actually deployed. and being able to learn that that sense and be able to actually understand the con. Quinces of certain action I assume also that, as as since you've been doing this for Hertford more than a decade a decade and a half that that things have changed quite a bit in the way of that militaries conduct various operations, everything from updated equipment to you, the the different kinds of theaters that soldiers find themselves deployed and have used. Have you seen a pretty dramatic show over those years. Or has it been fairly steady, certain things have changed and certain things have try is Thursday, stay the same. So if you look at
how much basic training tasks shoot, move communicate. Those are very similar to what it was even twenty years ago when I was in the army Thetis that we operate, equipment, has changed dramatically and the capabilities of the equipment. For example, are you ivies? I mean you might be seeing some of the footage coming out you crying. If there are you a vase everywhere, drones everywhere, and this is a fun the metal change in the way that our forces operate. It affected Dotterine its affected a lot of things, and so with been doing a lot work to simulate those talks of devices and even experiment with They stopped at a voice within Vps, allowing soldiers to figure out how do we work this new equipment into our tactics? It makes and procedures So, yes has been a change in equipment that the basic doctrine hasn't changed a lot. If what you saw just all does what an effort should, if decided, and then when it comes to the occasions. We are operating what we heard
very strongly about two thousand and twelve. Was it which we wanted a whole experience. They didn't want a level they didn't want a map. They wanted to go anywhere. A planet at a moment's notice and two thousand and twelve. That was pre star, citizen pre? No, and sky the idea of having an entire procedural planet that you could just go anywhere on the planet and immediately stop training or playing. That was very early days, so we actually vested in that. You know We have a blue engine and we built a game engine that supported that so within videos forward, release you can go to Africa. You gotta Europe instantly and is quite a good representation of that part of planet earth. out of the box and, of course, in the gaming space, and yes, I still play a lot of computer games. This is this. It become commonplace. I mean the lightest ass. It drops are amazing that the technology they have for going to different people and what's changing now is access to the cloud. So we have a lot more differ
data sources that we can pull from down into the game to create high fidelity, varmints quicker yeah, I would argue, we're still in a priest, our citizen world, but maybe that's because waiting for the full game of finally lighted recently I have not, but I have also been have also been that guy the person who is like how many years of it have I been hearing about this. I know that the DE there, I've, been releases of a significant content, it's one of those where as someone who covers tech and and games occasionally there, there tends to be this, though certain certain game because have tendencies to really drive up expectation not just of what you're going to get, but when you're going to get it and star says- and I shouldn't just ass target, because it's by far not the
only one I can think of one game maker in particular, who has quite the reputation for driving up expectation and then perhaps under delivering. But getting back to this, I wanted to ask but more to kind of get the the sense of the scope of the simulations there were talking about here, like typically how many people can work, of these simulations support simultaneously, so Now we are typically servicing battle simulation centers These are everywhere. U S. Army has eighty seven of them. I think, and they look like it. Which computer lab and they're full of soldiers- and it's not just stop he says: there's also tank simulators and aircraft simulators in these massive warehouses, where they, where they train so typically, two hundred and fifty is the maximum number
that, we would put into a single simulation and that's each soldier playing from the first person perspective just like in call of duty. We support two thousand to three thousand artificially intelligent units. In addition, in our current construct but as I'm sure into a little bit later was removed. What's the the military metaverse we're going to These are dramatic changes there, but right now that's about what we're doing and that's still I mean I mean anyone. Who's played any like multiplayer online, like first person. Shooter games would understand that two hundred and fifty that's that's no small shakes. That's pretty impressive! I mean, I know a lot of people who play The games were when they first come out, have support for may one hundred or more, maybe up to close to two hundred simultaneous players, but they often they
and are the targets of a lot of criticism, because their tends to be at the drop in four? Obviously, when you're talking about Alex that are meant to help soldiers train that drop in performance isn't really that's not acceptable, because you need to be able to have that. That too will be dependable and usable for that purpose. So to that end. I, like I'm curious. What are what are do you happen to have some idea about kind of the back inside stems that are running the software like how? How would you compare that to say gaming rigs today, or is it because we're talking about militaries? Are we talking about? You know much lower end, but robust computer systems. Now I'm very proud that we forced militaries all around the world by gaming pieces. I myself have jogging the
we use everything that important graphics card provides and labelling. Teacher generation capability, which means to automatically creating a high fidelity virtual environment. The ditech kind of gives you. What am I in trees and grass, most of us have heard about procedural generation now that- requires a modern graphics card. So we we take advantage of whatever the customer has, and I recommend that the customer upgrade to at least at twenty, a twenty graphics. The for example card, for example, the vote in port right now, if anyone so Vulcan, you you'll hear about it shortly at six, then you open, gl2, really exciting graphics, library that games are reporting to you at the moment gives a lot of really powerful capability to these game engines. So we, I not recommended military use, what they traditionally had for simulation, which wasn't gaming tech games
Ecology has just progressed in leaps and bounds, and there was a time I think it was in Early two thousands when Silicon Graphics was delivering got a better hardware for gaming. it was military. There was a in the space? That's completely different now and almost all of the big flights. Emulate is that I know of their using new video ex wisely. And in the gaming space where recommending the video gaming cards as opposed to professional cards, which is good because they getting cheaper We generally try make sure our software will run well on anything made in the last five years, just like a normal computer game. So we do have it, for supposed to spend millions of dollars on if new pieces, but we do expect us to expect outcome it, has to stay to stay current we got a lot more to come and we'll be back after we take this quick break with more crustacean with PETE Morrison of Bohemia Interactive Simulations
what? If you are a major transit system with billions of passengers taking millions of trips every here you are about to let any cyber attack slow you down, so you part, We finally have to build a security architecture to keep your data network and applications protected. Now you can tackle threat, so they don't bring you to a grinding halt and everyone's going places, including you, let's create cyber security that keeps your business on track idea. Let's create learn more at I bm dot com fortune, favors the bold, the strong, the brave for your business to break out of anything holding you back. You need business checking as brave as you are, introducing Novo business. Checking, it's powerfully simple, giving you all the features you need an unlike the traditional banking.
But all Novo has no minimum balances, no transaction limits and no hidden fees instead of a one size fits all approach. Novo is customize to your business, to save you time and free up cash flow with seamless integration to stripe shop. If I click books online and more or sign up for Novo for free and join the community of over one hundred. Fifty thousand fearless small businesses who found the customizable business working solution that admires their bravery, sign up for your free business checking account right now at Novo dot C, o slash tech, stuff, plus text of listeners, get access to over five thousand dollars in perks and discounts. Go to n, o v, o dot c, o slash tech stuff to sign up for free, Novo, DOT C, o slash tech, Stuff Novo Platform incorporated as a fintech, not a bank banking services,
provided by Middlesex Federal Savings F, a member f d, I c terms and conditions apply potential knows the importance of having a rock in your life. Everyone needs a rock a rock If you turn the far fetched into within reach, when you I have one- you can reach your potential, your dreams, your goals and
comes to your financial goals. Credential is the rocky can rely on with our knowledge of all financial professionals. We can help you get to new heights plan, invest in shore of attire visit potential that come with Europe potential transcribing the markov, nor can Jersey, you can't live without your car. You also can't live while drowning in sea blown payments, thankfully at refined jet they offer solutions to people like you, replied jet will refinance your Otto alone, so you can breathe stress free again. Pre qualification is fast easy and requires no hard credit. Paul refined jet saves people on average of one hundred and fifty dollars every month, so naturally they have some of the highest customer views in the country. When you work with grief, I jet you'll have real people helping you everything
by the way. That means all your questions and concerns can be addressed with an expert who knows the ins and outs of your auto alone refined yet can reduce your oughta loans. Interest rate extend your out alone for added flexibility and get you cash back from your cars. Equity, refine jets, utterly financed technology saves you time and money, pre qualify for a refinance out alone and minutes with no impact on your credit score. Take a much needed vacation from your monthly Otto alone. Payment and check out are ef. I jet dot com. Refined jet get a better car loan. Today, when VR was first starting to become a thing, we saw early, very proprietary approaches to VR. Then, because the the, you hit this hype cycle and wasn't able to live up to the hype.
The eyes of a lot of people. There was a dramatic drop in interest and it got to the point where people, dedicating their work to are suddenly found, no support from financial institutions to academic institutions and they turned to the video game sector in order to kind of You can choose things That enabled them to continue their work, and we are so. You started hearing about people using all sorts of things like even the consumer tech, like the Microsoft Connect, became of of an element that visa researchers for interested the wee wee actually was enormously important. So so it's great to see that there are these parallel swear, you might say not in this very proprietary, closed garden approach, which ought the obviously there there pitfalls to that right, because if the company that makes that thing
goes in a different direction or goes away you're stuck with a system that no longer has support. It can go obsolete, whereas when you pivot, to using technology that is, is marketed not just for the military but for consumer use. You can have a pretty strong level of confidence that you will continue to get that support, and it's we're just fortunate that the consumer level of of technology has reached a point of sophistication where you don't feel like you're trading off right, you're, not losing something because you are no longer going in this very focused niche proprietary approach I completely agree- and I have said many times talking to various customers- it we don't have technology problems, any more. The technology is there. We have endless. Few power in the cloud we have been tested, realistic, graphics, it's really nice, for example, in the bill, three etc
sometimes waiting for certain people to move on people who don't believe in game by straining, for example, the cultural shift that has to happen not just military, but in many serious game type applications a lot of people still think of computer games as the annoying. Is that their kids play, though the waste of time I will be like my father, white, who I love, but waste. Viewed my computer at home is this kind of waste of time. This box, I wasn't using my hands, I viewed it into well about future. For me, anytime, future. It was a portal into a career and yeah, so it takes times for cultures to change and we've seen that acceptance it'll be quite proud to drive that change in many. true innovations outside U S. Military organizations have always been forward thinking so you've had that problem here in the U S, but in other countries it's it's. It's certainly been an issue,
I can imagine it's so interesting that the convergence of technology was enabling this approach on it, technical level and it's the buying that becomes the bottleneck for certain militaries that is really fascinating to me. It is somewhat understandable. I mean I, I suppose. If you are someone who hasn't had that hands on experience, it can be difficult to imagine that it would have that level of official effect. Heaven knows we see that in politics as well right, where will we politicians who perhaps print out their Emil's. Then legislating tack and you clearly get in the Tec sector- you you feel this, this very intense its resistance to that, because there's there's this gap between us since understanding and the way things really are, and yet that person is still given the response.
the of of perhaps legislating that area? So it it's one of those parts of tech that I love. To talk about even though it's not you, it's not how tech works, but you have to take care of this holistic view in order then why is tech the way it is now? And why are certain things in tech, perhaps taking longer than you might have anticipated to get you, how a larger role out and because people are not like tech, back in the day when I was first given the assignment of being the tech, head writer for how stuff works, dot com, which is where I started when I started podcasting and everyone was all of my coworkers- were scared of tax. They were all were we were all english literature or English majors communications, majors and everyone was scared of it, and I wasn't
And when people ask me why I wasn't scared of a bull because tech either works or it doesn't people that's way more complicated I agree, and I mean there's a lot of people making decisions related to computer games that don't understand the medium and that always drives me a little bit crazy as a game. And yet my advice parents and I'm a apparent is, is to play games with your kids, see what they're doing understand and it doesn't just apply to computer games- could apply to anything understand, if what they're doing is complete waste of time and I just consuming or they creating if they're, playing ball and craft and their building castles in the air, creating encourage them to do. That if they modifying computer games like I was encouraged them to do that, don't work youtube. Videos of other kids playing computer games like that. That is arguably a complete waste of time, unlike it shut down for saying it, but that's just my opinion and then in a we, we have the situation where computer games are regularly being banned by a committee,
if people who I believe I've, never played a computer guy for you because of that they get to Farlin tour and so on and and- and I find that very problematic is as well. You know set these technologies with us is here to stay and when we need to all make an effort to understand it, two years old and my daughter is doing things that is already kind of beyond me. The metaverse, for example, which will get to I'm sure I rolled my eyes, but you know we can't do that. We can't be cynical and these technologies are moving huge momentum and we, to understand them and and grapple with that and and that's a great way for us to even segue, to talk a little bit about the metaverse, and this is going to require a lot of extrapolation on your part and- and so this is real the US kind of batting around our
you're standing of what the metaphors is supposed to be it's a little complicated because there is no firm definition on the matters. Generally speaking, I think the accepted definition is it's a persistent variation of the internet perhaps accept? that's it something that is really focused on things like virtual reality or augmented reality as a way to interact with that persistent representation. You have proof virtual environments, where you can pretty much do the all the things that you would do in the real world, but you do it online through this virtual environment, whether that's commerce, you're going to concerts you're hanging, friends are having business meetings, maybe touring a an actual real world location, either further virtual tourism,
twelve occasions, maybe your virtually touring a house that you're interested in buying like they're all these different potential applications, but the the thing that I keep coming back to is that if fact the metaverse is going to support all of these and more. It is going have to be such an incredible. The robust infrastructure to support that. That it's it's hard for me to get my mind wrapped around it right now and since we were talking earlier about military simulations and you're talking about samuel- it's right now they can support up to two hundred and fifty simultaneous human operatives, and then A few thousand more artificially intelligent ones like that That to me, is phenomenally impressive. It is also at the same time I would argue, probably a fraction of what most people are thinking of when there
visiting the metaphors right because their thinking of essentially there thing ready player, one or as some other science fiction incarnation of this virtual world. so, what is your kind of concept of the metaverse? What does what does that? What does that word conjure up your mind right, sir. I my thinking about them at a verse in the military made of earth has been shaped by an article called the full potential of a military, many of us by Jennifer, Mikado and Caitlin Dormann. and I do encourage people interested in this and how it might relate to the military to check that out and It became very clear to me that people are Tinkerbell about at a verse, verses mirrors- and there have been metaverse, is for a very very long time. Gabe Newell spoke about this
recently in a in a in an interview that he did and if we have an online virtual world with you of persistence, then that could be thought of, as Metaverse. They quote Neal Stephenson I author from way back, and he said it. It's a series of Incan, interconnected and immersive virtual worlds that afford that uses a sense of presence via agency and influence. that was coined over thirty years ago. So this concept It is one Lord world, it's it's not it's not new, But what's interesting about this is the idea of the metaverse, the idea that there would be only one and this is an intriguing concept within the Miller. we women connecting simulations together for twenty five years using various wonders technologies. We can connect to flood simulator to aid, a first person shooter like what we build connected back to what we call- Interactive Simulation, which is like hearts of iron. Where
is division. This kind of moving around is like onto the mapping in the bill we've been connecting those types of things together for years and what I think is going to happen over time is that we'll see the Microsoft metaphors, the Facebook bit of earth and then these things will begin to connect because unless they do we're not actually achieving the vision of the metaverse, when we don't, we don't actually reaching the promised land, which has a lot of potential right. I mean why do, I think, is really really intriguing. But the I'm is going to be that these gatekeepers, that within it two point out. As of one one, the fights had especially centralized companies was Oda our companies that have all the data centralized facebooks a portal onto the internet in some countries around the world, for example. They're going to need to somehow work together or there needs to be open source,
push that gains enough momentum to actually become its own thing that these be companies have to connect to. So when you think about the metaverse as an open architecture where there are different entities, interoperable servers, kind of all interconnected. Vice I shared and agreed upon interfaces. Then it becomes interesting prospect. So that's my thoughts about the measures, and here I am- I took it. There we're doing in the military just because I think that could be interesting to go from where we are today. The two hundred and fifty players to with with two thousand artificials intelligent unit the scale we are using cloud technologies and we are working as part of a bit Even the? U S: Army's synthetic training environment and looking at in cloud.
really new ways to achieve the kind of scale that the military for training, but all so, what you would expect to see in the metaverse eventually Think container Ized simulation workers. We can scale up the number of artificially intelligent units into the millions because. cuz everybody's connected directly to the web archive, instead of being connected to a game server. We can also likely scale up a number of human participants that are connected into that military made of US soda, big. So when all the metabolic height began, I was quite proud, especially of the U S, army, who are already thinking ahead and have companies like ales on contract to solve these. These types of problems, I believe, is that the explorer icon CBS will be the final version that he should have headed to a note, school game server? The next version of all my certainly connected directly to a web architecture, so you say
some really massive changes, and is one organization that could make a word metaphors work for itself. It would be the: U S, department of fence, and I think you're going to see the parallel development long waves on a web. Three point are happening out here in the civilian world and I think quite exciting. It's almost like a rice it, and I will dive further into discussions about the metaverse or some of the challenges we face, both in the near and long term and more after these messages. Oh wow, oh wow, what if you were a global bank who wanted to supercharge your audit system, so you tap Ib M to an silo your data and, with the help of ai start crunching of year's worth of transactions against thousands of compliance controls. Now, you're making smarter decisions, faster operating costs are lower and everyone from your auditors to your bankers feels like a million bucks
it's create smarter ways of putting your dig into work. I b M. Let's create learn more at I b m dot com fortune, favors, the bold, the strong, the brave for your business to break out of anything holding you back. You need business checking as brave as you are introducing Novo business checking, it's powerfully simple, giving you all the features you need and unlike the traditional banking I don't know, but has no minimum balances, no transaction limits and no hidden fees instead of a one size fits all approach. Novo is customize to your business, to save you time and free up cash flow with seamless integration to stripe shop, if I click books online and or sign up for Novo for free and joined the community of over one hundred, fifty thousand fearless small businesses who found the customizable business
I solution that admires their bravery sign up for your free business checking account right now at Novo dot C, o slash tech, stuff, plus text off listeners, get access to over five thousand dollars in perks and discounts. Go to n, o v, o dot c, o slash tech stuff to sign up for free, Novo, DOT C, o slash tech, Stuff Novo Platform incorporated is a fintech, not a bank banking services. provided by Middlesex Federal savings. F, a member after I see terms and conditions apply. Prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life every needs a rock, a rock help you turn the far fetched into within reach. When you I have one you can reach a potential, your dreams, your goals and when
comes to your financial goals. Credential is the rocky can rely on with our knowledge of all financial professionals. We can help you get. The new heights plan invest in shore of attire visit potential that come with Europe, pension funds coming of America, Norton Jersey, you can't live without your car. You also can't live while drowning in sea blown payments, thankfully at refined, yet they offer solutions to people like you, replied jet will refinance your auto alone, so you can breathe stress free again. Pre qualification is fast easy and requires no hard credit. Paul, refined jet saves people on average of one hundred and fifty dollars every month, so naturally they have some of the highest customer views in the country. When you work with grief, I jet you'll have real people helping you every
of the way. That means all your questions and concerns can be addressed with an expert who knows the ins and outs of your auto alone refined yet can reduce your oughta loans. Interest rate extend your out alone for added flexibility and get you cash back from your cars, equity, refined jets, utterly finance technology saves you time and money, pre qualify for a refinance out alone and minutes with no impact on your credit score. Take a much needed vacation from your monthly Otto alone. Payment and check out are ef. I jet dot com refined jet get a better Carlo today. I think we can learn a lot of lessons through the way that the Department of Defense approaches this continue of evolution of the military matters. I think
those lessons are ones that will be valuable. It's I think, because the the military approach, I would argue a much more focused view on what the metaphor says and what's purposes and white needs to do and how it needs to do it These are all things that are incredibly beneficial when you're, actually engineering it I'll write you, you can start to define your prayers. What are your? What are your deliverables? What are the things that you absolutely have to be able to do? How can you do it the best way that supports the most people at the same time? these are all things that are easy, not easy. These are all things that are answerable but like when I look at Conversations about a mega, it's more of a general purpose, metaverse. What I lay typically don't encounter are those kinds of easily identifiable objectives where you could
you like. This is something you can actually work toward like an engineering problem. You can work towards solving and I see it. This could be the issue of the media to don't want to put everything on all the companies that are working on, creating a metaverse, obviously they're not go. share everything that their working on right now with everybody? They would be overkill No one's really certain which pathways are going to end up being the of the the profitable once and I don't just mean profitable from a financial standpoint, and, and so there I there are a lot of reasons why I think this is, but the problem is falls. The falls on me as someone who's just kind of passionately. Following developments tat. Is that I'm getting a lot of information about the though it will vague information about the destination, we're heading, but
very little about the steps that need to be taken to get there? Apart from the fact that now you have people like representatives from Intel saying that, in order to achieve a really robust metal First, that allows for things like the r and d are implementation. The Tec we have is going to need to be a thousand times more powerful than what we have today. again suggesting that if you want to support a large number of people in the same environment the same time, and we seen them sort of with VR right now, where I think horizon world I think that as far as world supports, maybe twenty or twenty five people simultaneously right now, sir, obviously that would not be that way give you the feeling of attending like a massive concert, for I don't Metallica or something I mean it feel great.
I believe, Metallica playing for me in twenty four other people, but but but but it doesn't create the experience of the promise of the metaverse and so I think there's just this big disconnect between sort of the the marketing speak in the hype of it and We actually are, and that to me is that what I like to warn people about, because I fear that, with that lack of of clarity. There's a lot of opportunity for people to either get scammed or maybe just engage in speculation, that is probably not the wisest choice, especially if it's you know you pouring money that you can't really afford to lose. Something the thing to get excited about is is web three point: I ignore all the noise and
actually ignore what the companies are doing since whip three. it's it's almost redesign of the internet rounds open technologies like this concept of an open ledger that the technology that underpins crypto, and I hate saying it, but you know blockchain. These technology have checked, technologies, have huge potential and you you, you sort of need to take a long view or you will get depressed because in the short term, I'd be crypto and have enough to ease I'm not going to as in them, because I believe in the short term neck. The kind like a scam is pure speculation, and I think it's back that enough to ease our scam by you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore the potential of these technologies long term, and three point: o vision is really appealing right and it does oh against. I think the interests of these companies that want to control the information and at home information on their servers and and scour through that info.
So they own the data that they can sell to others. Whip with three point always it is a re imagining it so in some ways of what the internet could be, they called the semantic where bits its is ubiquitous, we need an it that use artificial intelligence to give you what you need based upon your browsing history, what you're doing it is designed to do this in a way that that, if my isn't necessarily like owned by Google I don't know a lot about it, but the reading that I've done. I am excited about because it's a vision that I think we all can get behind right if enough people understand the vision and where TIM Berners Lee, are the internet wants to take on a web. Three point, then, I think, has a chance. Personally, I think what you gonna see in the short term is democracy it's in Facebook's kind of doing Amateur verses, retaining like this is the best at the sight.
climb, as there is almost a community driven with three point. I met Metaverse the begins to take shape and I truly hope that's what happens. Because I don't want to have to access the metaverse through a single company. I wanted to be like the internet right. I should to access it through Facebook? I should be able to disconnect and and there I am if I want to contribute to that, I should own what I create. If I create a new house whatever design tool, is provided to me the intellectual property of that. House, should belong to me and that's what you be stored on the open, which obviously is immutable You know every. We can see that I created an own that house. So what's the point, I was definitely worth looking at, when it comes to end, if tease and what's happening in the short term, I mean
There is an amazing I went viral, I think, is Dan Olson's the problem with him and if T's Youtube video and have you seen it and it's an amazing takedown of Nf T's, but it's extremely short sighted. Yet yes, and if T's are really right now, but the techno you did under pins. Them is awesome. so I do worry that people are taking a position with a very short term view when we should be told about where we want to get too does assets? I tell you make, I think in I have repeatedly, are enough teeth like I have, but it's and on the way that they're being dealt with right now, just largely as a speculative investment slash scam, depending upon the actual implementation, some cases it's out and out scams where people are just trying to YO capitalize on the combination of the fact that there are a lot of people out there. Who are you?
You're too see their money increase and they have a large ignorance of what in of teeth actually are, and when you have those things bared together, you ve got marks. You got targets for scams, so I like to have a pretty negative feeling for Mfts at in their current manifestation I can see the potential benefit of an f down. road, just as I could see the benefits of crypto the if it ever emerged from being this speculative commodity and to an actual working currency. I just never seen. Crypto really behaving like a currency. I've seen behave more like like stocks or you know in sting and precious metals, that's the way people have treated it, and so it's like the intent of the thing matter it's how people interact with it once it gets into the real world and- and it becomes a totally different thing so
I agree with what you're saying I also I mean I just recently this past week covered this worried about how Snoop Dogg acquired death row records And started to remove some of the albums and songs off of various streaming services, because of his pronouncement, that he's going to turn death row records into an enough t music label and be the first major music label them first, another move that I think I would say is perhaps a bit premature right now, but. At the same time, I can see a world where the music industry, Tries to get behind the idea of an a 10ft approach. As opposed to streaming or the classic load digital store model. I dont know if that's going to happen, but it certainly potentially male it's a possibility with, let's focus on the metaverse. I also agree with you. I don't want a world where
a massive company has created the gateway to the metaverse or and I would argue even worse, you could have silos metaphor. does that don't have any connectivity between them. They could have the Microsoft Metaverse or the Facebook Metaverse, which just kind of creates splintered internets, and it makes me think of like back before Facebook dominated all of the social networks, went to wherever your friends were so like. I was a Myspace hold out for a long time cause. I was out of college by the time Facebook came around. I couldn't get into Facebook when it first started, because it didn't have a college email address. I was on. I speak no second as Facebook, they that's flash in the pan, and it's never going to be like it's never stick around, but how it does create like like you.
either get into a scenario where, ultimately, these entities have to work together to integrate their their their interfaces, so that you can pass between these. Are you get to a point where no, they decide they're going to stick it out there just going to pummel the competent gin until they're the only one left standing, neither of those are particular We good for the individual user. I also think an open source approach would be ideal like having that having a when agree. You know it makes way more sense for us to all focus on open her operable standards so that we don't have this painful process. Where Everyone's fighting for dominance, nothing is poor, well from one experience to the other, and The consumer is just going to left holding the bag,
but a face in the internet. It's easy to almost go one step below the hype right, so you're in if speculative asset, lots of scans bad The idea that I have data that everybody can see that data is mine at it. forever on the internet and copy deleted copy change, like that's, that's kind of cool tat right so I was reading about. I always we've all we've, I r w e I v org. And they're trying to make make it a little bit. I guess makes sense. in the sense that you could store like an entire document, so to speak, that maybe you can only store like a little bit of text like a u RL in the NFC. But what if you could actually store document? What, if you could store more data? and there initiatives that I'm very excited about that are looking at the problems and try to solve them and do it in an open source way.
so I'm really excited about about that. I think that's the military just got to bring it back to what the military's doing. You know they going to go a different route. The biggest problem with the blockchain approach is the fact that everybody can see to let you write. There's no concept of security. one of the things that slows the military down in anything I t related is security for very good reasons. Obviously, and there are very big contracts with certain companies for secure clouds in the like, so I think that figuring out Air blockchain technology actually is useful and There are simply ahead. He's not necessary, is really is really important as as well, Oh and I think every Net user is almost a blah, to do their research a little bit. I dont understand that people should sort out due to a training course in order to access the internet and I guess it would start at school, but it would definitely help like everybody needs to do the the training.
My company makes me- do you know twice a year- the eighties game. He fishing training I feel like a mandatory, especially for grandmothers. I think, really Again it gets to that it gets that that target. opportunity for scam, artists right, like ignorant is is one of the biggest opportunities that that cons have when it comes to pulling off their scam the more the less aware someone is of something less educated. They are in something the more likely you're going to be able to take advantage of that and so, but that we have. We've also seen that in pretty much every security story. That's out there, you, typically when you really at the end of most, not all but most computer security stories. You you ultimately to someone somewhere, fell victim to a trick and that's how
the Hollywood version of someone trying to log into a server and typing in a password getting too correct ones in the third one works. Almost where you do have brute force attacks that occasionally happen, but they are pretty hard to do if you're talking about even- semi sophisticated security systems or more likely that some somewhere got compromised one way or another, and we can just apply that across the board for everything, but not just for basic computers, security, but pretty much all like internet etiquette could could benefit from people having that level of Oh, I understand what the bad guys are looking to do like how they're looking to exploit it and understanding what they're looking for. I have a better appreciation for various processes. I know that if someone calls me up claiming to be from the I t department- and they want my-
Admin through admin level may login and password probably its best, not to give it to them straight away, We got a bit more to go with our look at the future of the metaverse, but first, let's take this one last break What if he were a major transit system with billions of passengers taking millions of trips every year, you are about to let any cyber attack slow you down, so you pay no. If I began to build a security architecture to keep your data network and applications protected now, you can tackle threat, so they don't bring you to a grinding halt. and everyone's going places, including you, let's create cyber security that keeps your business on track idea. Let's create learn more at I b m dot com fortune, favors the bold, the strong, the brave for your Our business to break out of anything holding you back, you need business. Checking as brave as you are.
introducing Novo business. Checking it's powerfully simple, giving you all the features you need and, unlike the traditional banking Otto Novo has no minimum balances, no transaction limits and no hidden fees instead of a one size fits all approach. Novo is customize to your business, to save you time and free up cash flow with seamless integration to stripe shop. If I click books online and or sign up for Novo for free and joined the community of over one hundred, fifty thousand fearless small businesses who found the customizable business.
Decking solution that admires their bravery sign up for your free business, checking account right now at Novo dot C, o slash tech, stuff, plus text of listeners, get access to over five thousand dollars in perks and discounts. Go to n, o v, o dot c, o slash tech stuff to sign up for free, Novo, DOT C, o slash tech, Stuff Novo Platform incorporated is a fintech, not a bank banking services. provided by Middlesex Federal savings. F, a member Effie icy terms and conditions apply. Prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life needs a rock, a rock, help. You turn the far fetched into within reach. When you I have one you can reach your potential, your dreams, your goals and
it comes to your financial goals. Potential is the rock you can rely on with our knowledgeable financial professionals. We can help you get to new heights plan, invest in sure, retire visit prudential dot com, Uzi or Rock Prudential Insurance Company of America Newark New Jersey. Research shows that most homeowners or under ensure getting a corner. and his fast when I click on a four, can consider your personal situation, which can be big caps and coverage at national advisers group, are licensed. Insurance advisers provide personalized recommendations. We do the leg work, forty, with customized options from top rated carriers licensed in all fifty states, so that any plus baby rating trust me chill advisory group to get the coverage you need at a price is right, for you, that's better than a one size fits all quote: go to energy insure dot com. Today, as in a g, I n S: U r e dot com, I love this conversation largely because, like I have been so kind of laser,
focus on the issues that I see the metaverse that it it often can be hard for me to step away from that and say well Lena locate. Yes, there are problems that have to be solved before we get to that destination. But that doesn't mean the destination isn't worth going to. That's where I I can kind of lose my way. Sometimes I get so focused on no worrying about big tech, I too large a role in this or worrying about the scam artists who are taking advantage of people when there is a lot of excitement around this idea or worrying companies that might be investing heavily in a future, but without without a clearly communicated pathway for how they want to get those are the things that kind of worry me just cuz. I see it as opportunities for this to take longer than it should honestly, but with you to talk
with you. I feel better about that, because I do think that we are going to get there. The questions just like how much aid how much garbage are we going to get the go through before hid hit that destination hope led by the time that we start seeing met a verse, is like then use general purpose. Better verses start to really take off I'll still be interested and I won't have turned into a luddite hermit who lives in the woods it's very easy to be cynical about it, especially if you like an old, a gamer where we have all seen. Second life of all played massively multiplayer online games, and the first inclination is too I role when you speak to someone who's just about the metaverse and they've, never played a computer game in their life, but technology, my advice to companies that are interested in investing in this area is to look at the problems that we're seeing in the short term. Curious shoes that the problems within and if these and invents, why
used to solve those problems. And I mean you probably end up selling a business device. but ideally contribute to some of these organizations. I these organizations know that's, I think, that's the best you can do right now, if you're gonna take tech, entrepreneur delete behaviour. We are looking at the terrain aspect said he idea that a metaphor requires one of two types of terrain either it's a forlorn fantasy land, which is totally fine union it. That's that's what the internet is amazing or computer guys are amazing for disputing these fantasy land spent, but also there will be a in our opinion, a need for really realistic. I really really sick, but you left where you a build your own house in a bit of us in the same location as your houses in the real world, so we are doing a lot on the terrain side. We have a lot of technology related to streaming to ride from the cloud and processing that terrain and procedurally enhancing it then, and getting it out to to multiple different simulation engines, obviously focused on the military budget.
think about he said outside the military as as well. So I really do think this is an exciting area and to get involved just jump wipe, without kind of understanding how many companies were selling blockchain stuff ten years ago, with no real idea of what that was and yeah, you really do need to to to to look at it. I think, especially, I had to take a a of smarter than ever and As I was sort of researching to talk to you, it became clear that it is moving. so fast. He. It is hard to keep up with it, there's no there's no doubt play talk to one of my coworkers yesterday and I said the weird thing that I going through right now. The weird realization I'm going through is that we have like ten years ago, the big concept in tech, like the far off future concept, attack was the conversation that was just going was about the the
of the singularity, this era where technology is changing so quickly. You can't even defined the present nice, a here's, the weird thing, because I think, partly because the pandemic, which forced a lot of companies to go through very rapid evolution. They- to adopt practices and processes and technologies that if they had been considering but perhaps was on, like maybe a five year plan and they of saying well, we gotta do it now, because we have to be able to continue to do business in a world as completely change, and we saw such an incredibly rat evolution that is continuing because while the companies are saying well, it doesn't make sense to go back to where we were, it's way more sense to build upon what we've learned. Just trying to get through the pandemic. So exciting time as it is, if you to me like we might be in the singularity now it's your baby in the
we in the future will back and say I gather that's what it began. We just couldn't tell because we were too, we were in it, but but I feel like that's kind of where we are it's not the same, it's fiction version of the singularity? It's not like we're. All you know playing shadow run for real and plugging directly into computers and injecting our consciousness into the internet, but but it feels like we, we are almost in this this cycle of such rapid change, the just defining what's happening now, is a huge challenge, let alone kind of projecting out. What's it going to be in five to ten years, Yeah ignoring the noises is certainly hard. I mean within my little industry but a pipe around hardware as well the lightest, the eye r m r, I r headset, and for me personally, what helps is the ministry industry is to identify what we are trying to do with a hot business is training. Soldiers do
The soldiers need device ex cloud. Why in order to train, will it make them trained better, and so for me get the luxury of doing that assessment against any new texts. it comes along with bohemian active simulations. And it's been very interesting to me- to see hype even with- what you simulation about, for example, via headsets, the hype wrapped up a few years ago. Many many computer games were created A lot of game developers were very unhappy with the profits that they got from that because the market was so inundated with. Vr games I think a lot of people were just like me. I bought an expensive VR headset. I played a game. I got a headache. I put it back down and went back to my pc maybe it's because of forty two to all too caught understand, but the I had sets were a painful experience for a lot of a lot of people. now here we are today and instead of just
the virtual reality headsets. We now have mixed reality, headsets, where we can similar to Poland's hololens we can. the virtual in the real world. It's a much more pleasant expire, As for the operator, you don't get a headache as quickly and were saying for the first time, for example, pilot saying I'll hang on. Yet this could potentially work whereas up until one or two years ago the pilots were saying nope unless it's a big dome with images projected on a screen, I don't want to use VR So we are beginning to see changes, but that these changes come slowly. Gotta come quickly. And it's very interesting for me to go back and look at presentations from futurists in the past. it is almost twenty years- and you know, I think, that the the progress has been steady within. How little area obviously things like social media sort of exploded, and you never know when the next explosion is going to be, for me personally what I've done to
this business businesses. Just how do we? How do we do anything, How do we train soldiers better and if it doesn't do that thing that its use potentially useful for marketing and that's about it and that's the approach, I want to see kind of adopted across the industry. I feel like with that approach. you're able to work toward that goal more concretely, are likely to achieve the the goal. Then, if you have a more vague finish it and no one really sure why, What you mean, and even if they kind of have- rip on what you mean: not sure how to get there. It makes me think I have a background in acting and I once had a director jokingly, Give me the least helpful direction. I have ever heard but it was a joke where he Jonathan. Could you act. More.
which doesn't mean anything at all like it doesn't mean anything, but it was, it did make me laugh and then later he gave me very concrete direction. That was actually helpful, but that, that's the way. I feel that a lot of companies are kind of taking this or that's the communication. Again I shouldn't project too much, the companies a lot of this comes from press releases which might be drawn up by someone who is working from bullet points, or it might come from the media, where you got you another degree of separation from the actual source. I am trying to be a little more gracious in my in in the We I analyze the matter, verse p I have to say it has been a real, pleasure to have you on the show. I could have you back and we can chat about
computer games as much as you like, I love computer, gets down there their amazing. I still play them. I think I'll, be the guy in the nursing home when on eighty five playing the computer guy, you know I just got it such an important part of my life ever think that I have is the result of computer games. using people that are behind them, so yeah, I, recommend people play ball. Games were out of curiosity before I had before. I let you go. What's a computer game that you're a currently playing doesn't have to be your favorite, but something that you go to so just played space engineers because I'm a programming background you can actually like programme also in autumn inventions in space interviews. It's like it's like it's like mine, craft but a little bit more for forty two year old men, I live. I love computer games that, where you have to create and and I've really enjoyed that I'd, paying star citizen, which I do recommend people check out. It has come a long way I I've enjoyed it. I've played it for about one hundred
I was- and it's been a positive experience since so I used to be very pissed about the chances now, I'm just going to lukewarm so will, That goes just to more Elden ring. Elden ring, oh yeah. Of course I mean that's the one right now, though I have to play I know a lot at a big fan of the soul SIRI. So I love I look out and ring and then not have been playing the computer guy Nekabad in Austria, Ringwald, Sir, to my Australians, you guys got get that guy, but it is. It is fantastic, excellent. As for myself in case anyone's curious, the game, my go to game because I can play a level and then like bounce off not tonight do you ever wanted to be a bouncer in front of a nightclub, it's kind of like first please it's one those games where you're like checking stuff against data, that's in your hand.
No, I'm not really selling it. The best way here that it's, I really loved those games, and I was a big fan of papers. Please no big fan of the first not tonight, and this one there's a lot of pretty heavy handed commentary in it, but I really enjoying it your I saw the amount of Israel What about what will you do if you dive into the independent gamer like the stuff: that's just being released directly to the internet and, like you, go to place like a geo or something like that, it is beyond overwhelming, to see that, like you're going to be spoiled for choice when it comes to innovative experiences Yeah I'll definitely have to have you back we'll have a rap session about like computers, games and the various errors in the stand out some things as elsewhere But for now I should probably let you get back to creating virtual world and in doing what you do best. Thank you again for being on the show my pleasure. Thank you.
Thanks again to PETE for being on the show. I think it's important to chat with folks who have a different perspective on topics. a particularly people who are kind of in the thick of things. You know in something that's at least related to that topic. Pete certainly has Tons of experience, building on platforms that allow for numerous people to congregate in a virtual space, I don't have that experience so getting his site was invaluable ally We have to do a future episode about web three in a web. Three point: zero, which is another. Tat concept that I have some concerns about. I like the idea binding three point now. I think the idea is a very strong. One it actually causes. and where I think the internet idea is a very strong one. This job communications network that Democratize has so much of what previously had been site
mode. However, I do have some concerns that what we're going to see in practice with web three point o will effectively be the same old, on blade on new instruments and other work that some new parties will end up becoming the sort of centralized monoliths of that the killer, incarnation of the internet or the web, but but that's another topic for another episode and I'll, probably reach out to someone who has more experience in that to kind of address some of my concerns and explain, where I may or may not be off base. So look for to that. I don't have anything firm in the works on that right now, so it might be a little bit before I get it, but I really want to get my had wrapped around the whole thing and just to make sure that the The concerns I have are either merited or maybe that I its base up a misunderstanding which is entirely possible. I don't magically understand everything right away
but in the meantime, if you have suggestions for good that I should have on this show in the future, or topics that I should cover on tech stuff. Please reach out to me the best place to do that is over on twitter use the handle text stuff each test, w and I'll. Try Do you again really Text off is an eye heart radio production for more podcast. From my heart radio visit the eye heart radio, an apple pod, casts wherever you listen to your favorite jobs it. Mazda believes we all need more nature in our lives because You're in riches humans, but on average we spend less than eight. percent of our time outdoors, american children Fourthly, spend less than ten minutes a day outside now, with the covered pandemic, people are spending even less time outdoors
Yet we need nature in our lives more than ever. The first ever Mazda see Ex fifty is an all new crossover, as you ve, that is built from the ground. Up help immersed people in nature. The design is beautifully capable a more elegant version of an outdoor vehicle that is highly reflective of the surrounding environment and has features like a panoramic moon roof that help you connect to nature. The first ever Mazda see extremity were more human in nature. Visit as USA. Dot com to learn more
heading downtown and need depart download. I park it for the most affordable and easiest way to park downtown. When you download and use I park it, you get the best prices at nineteen public parking garages conveniently located in the loop River North and Mag mile save twenty percent on your first five I park at Express transactions when you create an account download I park to park for theaters dining the Riverwalk work and play download. I park it for the easiest way to park at the most convenient locations in downtown Chicago Download. I park it and save he there, I'm Jess.
it confetti here I am psyche than I am hasty, lady and welcomed a boss level. Podcast for repeat your conversations with gaseous levelled up bringing an experienced to the table. We pick the brains of professionals, creators and bosses and industries across the globe to help our listeners achieve their own boss devil. We are not just creating a pod cast, but a game. A fight and engaged community doesn't Abbas level on I hurt radio at Apple Pie cast a reverie. You get your past, you need your car, but you could do without those steep blown babe, it's right at refined, yet they
know what it's like. That's. Why refined jet made lowering your monthly bill easy with fast refinancing pre qualification that doesn't require a hard credit pole, refined yet has some of the best customer of use in the country and reef? I jet can save you and average of a hundred and fifty bucks every month on your car loan think what you could do without extra money find out what you could save on your car loan at refined, jet dotcom reef. I just dont come get a better Carlo today
Transcript generated on 2022-03-28.