Calvin. Nineteen moves fast and now you can to. If you feel symptoms, even if their mild, you should test fast test positive and at high risk, persevere, Colvin, nineteen and act fast with authorized oral treatments that can be taken at home and must be taken within five days from when symptoms begin. Kilvey. Nineteen moves fast, and now you can to by asking your health care provider if, in all treatment, is right for you learn about a treatment options cv, nineteen, that com this message is sponsored by Pfizer. There's nothing! again invigorating restorative shower That's why I urge you to check out the nebula by molen quattro, an incredible product that provides for different, shower experiences. There's relieve soothe, clarify and cleanse, and all four are amazing, it's so easy to install that even a pod gastric could do it. I seriously I set it up in less than ten minutes and on top of all that, nebula by melon quattro uses fifty per cent less water, sir,

You can shower knowing your being environmentally conscious, while enjoying your spot like experience, gotta, bowen, dot, com to learn more, that's m, o ye and not come to learn more, Prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life. Everyone needs a rock, a rock can help. You turn the far fetched into within reach. When you have one you can reach your potential, your dreams, your odds and when it comes to your financial goals, credential is the rock you can rely on. our knowledge of all financial professionals. We can help you get to new heights plan. Invest inshore retire visit prudential dotcom, whose europe parental insurance company of america, north new jersey. It's never been easier to communicate with me.

But it's never been harder to know which platform you're supposed to communicate on here's a similar solution with called meat and message all in one app rings central makes communication easy with all that connectivity. In the palm of your hand, you can work from anywhere with any one at any time and never miss a beat, because when it comes to communication, simple is better. Learn more at ring central dot com ring central, simpler communications, welcome to tax it's a production from I heart, radio hey there and welcome to tech stuff. I'm your host Jonathan Strickland, I'm an executive producer with iheart radio and held that tech aria. It is time for a text of classic episode This episode is called a sting re operation and it has guest co host

balin and met frederick of stuff. They don't want you to know on the show and that's because sting rays are a tie. of surveillance. Tech used by law enforcement agencies that trick your cell phone into thinking. There talking to an actual cellphone tower, let's listenin. We were super excited to hear about today's topic because it's been something that matt and I have been talking about off air as I correct absolutely this kind of technology that we're going to get into a little later, peaks our interest, you could say mine as well. You know that I don't want you to know, shows great show if you guys haven't check it out, you need to go in and check it out, check, check it how you guys are looking into various types of conspiracies thing that are happening below the surface level. That people may not be aware of and kind of

thing through the information to show which parts of it are the there are really solid. You know these are the things that we know for sure, and here the conjecture that's been set about it. You guys do a great job with it and as it too there's a lot of stuff out there that can really fuel that kind. that kind of talk for good reason. Typically and one of those mario's. I'm a little more conservative and sceptical with my approach to these things but this is a technology we're gonna talk about today that I don't know how you could go to it being sceptical and say everything is fine. We are talking about. sting re or I am as I catchers and so sting ray is the one that I think most people have heard about. That's the one that was brought up in a lawsuit in arizona

I think that that is what most people think about when they hear. I am ass. I catchers if they are aware of that term at all by the costing seem raise just one version: of that and we'll talk, about some of the other ones as well. So I am, as I catchers stands, for international mobile, subscriber identity catchers. Locators and then is a fancy way of saying this is a technology that is able to intercept signals from cell phones. Sensibly so that a law enforcement official could locate a person based upon that person's cell phone signalling. does this and we'll talk specifics and a bed by making a cellphone tower so in other words your cell phone, Communicating with this device thinking

at this is the actual part of the infrastructure that it would normally operate inside yeah, yeah, sort of the same way that or similar at least to the ways in which some animals have evolved to have camouflage that makes them appear to be a different type of creature. Right yeah, one thing that I just want to get this out so at all, mon anchor playing about if the whole episode, if you ever lost a cell phone or had one stolen and had a sneaking suspicion that I'd there if the way for law enforcement to catch it well, theoretically there is a yes it's just. They can't do that for every body, because so many people lose their cell phones or have been stolen. Euro young ones is turned on It began as long as well and also depends on a couple of other things too right there. to have the. If there Looking for your cellphone, specifically, they kind a need to know a little bit more information like

they need to know something specific about that phone. In order to identify it verses all all the other phones that will connect to it right behind, because otherwise they just be like well, it may be one of the phones here and there different ways of looking into that right. It all depends on what the investigation is and what will talk more about how its use in investigations so Basically, this is a technology meant. To help again ostensibly law enforcement tracked down the bad guy or a counter terrorism officials to ideas? five potential terrorist threats before they become a reality? That's what it's supposed to be used for. There are a lot of people who have objected to it because it is it taking a very wide approach to targeting, something very specific and be dangerous,

for listing re itself, a cost between sixty eight thousand dollars and a hundred thirty five thousand dollars? Last I checked cause are two different models of the sting re resisting rain. Stingray to stingray took him out a few years ago. I've seen re obviously came out before that, because we move when a chronological order they having onto that quantum effect where these sequel comes out before the original, now is made by a company called harris corporation olive melbourne, florida and- and this company makes a lot of technology. The falls into this general category some of the products that they make are similar to sing ray and do similar things too. That device other are more specific and are meant to be used in conjunction with a gadget like stingray other peripherals, yeah yeah. You know it's like a console. You know, like you got your connect, you got your you know your your dance pad. You've got all these other things.

the sort of a similar thing here, except the devices that harris corporation makes someone boost the scene catching ability the basic technology, the stingray, some of them allow for better tracking technology it all depends on the the thing the building or you may have heard. Some of the other names from the other names include trade, fish king, fish. Amberjack gossamer putin and hail storm and now the bees are not types of stingray. These are all individual devices that work in a similar way to stingray some of them cop. the functionality of sting raised. Some of them go beyond that. In fact, trigger fish is put regularly troubling but Stingray itself can be really trump trouble. I do if you just do a simple upgrade to it. At any rate, the oliver have

things in common in that they all are meant to detect. So phone usage in some way and either identify it or located and or track it and It's how you use these incomplete combination with one another that that determines your ability to do that now. Clearly we're talking about something: that's mimicking a cell tower, after having be mobile, because otherwise, each have to hope that the bad guys happened to go across your part of town. You can't take it to them if it's not mobile right right so One of the things that this is really helpful for as far as law enforcement are concerned is that they can go to a part of town where they suspect some one is they can put it their ears. Listen for it looked to see them me heads that relate back to they target their specifically looking for and if not, they can move on to a different part of town

that's also one of the drawbacks, as it turns out at least four from the perspective of some people. Now or that's one other thing, I'll africa dimension. Gossamer is one of the exceptions to this gossamer is not about tracking relocating cellphone. Here this is the winner. Freaked me out the mafia. This is not passive, no gossamer, isabel denial of service attacks on a mobile phone, so it's about. This is essentially a jammer, now this is great for all the paranoia people in the audience. Are you getting bad reception or you being gossamer yeah actually a dynamic than other things to mention. I didn't put it in our notes, but one of the things these devices typically can do. The sting rain particular can do this. Is it boost europe, the signal coming from your phone to conduct to the tower. It cannot simply say I need a stronger signal,

phone then, even though you're not using it like it's just in your pocket, there's no vibrating, there's no ringing, there's nothing going on. phone start sending stronger signals, the strange your battery. So if you ll, apparently persuasion, you may also think my thoughts battery, just won't even last like a full day any more, and it might not be because your phone is old. It might be because you're getting you're getting sting raid has honour killings happening to me right now. Well, I'm sorry! Maybe you should take more care? Will your browsing on your phone, also man mad at me, not to make you worried or anything but you're? Definitely on some lists so here on our lives to favour people the add one right. There are simply ok, so I love this idea about it being mobile. So if we take that paranoid example gap in

the vast majority virtually every time somebody has poor reception or poor battery life yeah. It is never going to be something like this, but there is a very small chance, yeah that if you are a victim of this, Can literally have someone following you around right? You ok, to be fair. This technology, we're talking about, is at a level of expense where it's not likely to happen to you. Only if you're someone who is either hanging, with questionable people more, you yourself are engaged in some questionable activities. Then you'd be more likely to have this actually target you out, because we know that law enforcement agencies across the united states and in other parts of the world have use. This technology there that there, the customers, the ones that are purchasing MR from harris corporation

it's very possible. You would come into contact with this and it's not that you are being targeted but you're still being affected. It is just so broad. It was like it's mimicking a cell phone tower. It's not mimicking a cell phone tower for a single phone, it's mimicking a cell phone tower for broadcast range of that device, and so so their mobile, but with what? would they look like if you just saw what so they look kind of. Like I mean if you've ever seen, one of those servers like it looks like just a basic computer, with lots of ports on it It's kind of like that, it's usually a little bit stumpy. Looking like it's not as wide as your typical server is, is a little more narrow, a little tall, but it's meant to

fit into racks because you can, you know, end up hearing these with other technologies. Others, essentially a computer, and you hook it up to a laptop. So you've got the really the basic parts you have are the antenna which is important because obviously it has to receive signals sent from cell phones. and a transmitter so that you can send stuff back through. If you need to you, ve got the the the computer itself, which is processing the signals in identifying where those signals are coming from both what type of phone is by giving you the identification number so that phone loved the phone number that's associated with that phone. And the location of that phone based upon some triangulation. You might actually the physically move. The technology around to get the translation you could, your radically community, it with another cellphone tower and by giving comparing numbers the

yeah, you can generally tell the direction from which the signal comes and its strength. Gives you an idea of its general location in that, like you know, roughly what distance it is from your your base station, so was one of those things where, if the signal gets stronger, it's closer to you as the angry device right and if it's, if it's, if the signal, if the cell phone signal is getting weaker than you know, that the target cell phone is moving away, if you were to move the van to a second location and do those measurements, then, because you have the two points on a on one part of a triangle: the cell phones. The third point, then, you know where a person is it's the same way that cell phone towers are able to give an approximation of where you are. Even if your phone doesn't have gps right. Is sending the signals and based upon the strengthen the signal how long it takes to get there. All of these sorts of things taken up.

Proximate where you are now why by approximating mean within a few me, oh meters, so it's not like, as as specific as gps can be, but it's still good enough for law enforcement to home in on a particular location and people consent to the use of gps, but her here I saw this question. I am sure a lot of people are wondering, which is this stuff sounds kind of space e g, but how How new is it neither knew the the information I found said that at least the triggerfish version of this technology has been unused since the late nineteen nineties, like nineteen ninety seven yeah, and to keep keep in mind like this technology has been in some form of of development or another and been available to different types of agencies, specifically The fbi would be a big one and,

it's just that over the past few years it has become more common for, local law enforcement to get their hands on this for it was something that only near the federal law for when officials were able to access, but now we're seeing local law enforcement not everybody's owning up to endorsing a lot a local law enforcement officers adopted technology, and doing it and cutting back door shenanigans way, I would say no yeah, we'll be back with more of this classic episode of tech stuff. After this quick break. I I I I I I I I I I I call the nineteen moves fast and now you can too. If you feel symptoms, even if they're mild, you should test fast test positive and at high risk for severe cold and nineteen, then act fast with authorized oral treatments that can be taken at home and must be taken within five.

Days from symptoms, begin covey. Nineteen moves fast, and now you can to ask your health care provider. If it all, treatment is right, for you learn about a treatment option see the nineteen that com. This message is part of our phaser. It's never been easier to communicate with people, but it's also never been harder to know which platform you're supposed to be communicating on there's a similar solution ring central is the complete phone system that makes it easy to call meet message, even facts all in one out and with seamless device. Switching you'll always be able to stay on top of business, even as your business grows, because whether you're working from home, the office or anywhere else rings central can help you be there without having to be there when it comes to communication,

simple is better learn more at ring. Central dotcom ring central, simpler communications. Every travel broad knows exactly what they need to do in order to have the most successful and incredible trip, whether that's how to travel with a new baby, how to find the best restaurants and a new city how to look for the best wifi for those work from home moments, and you know I love bringing all my devices with me when I travel, I usually have a sturdy suitcase dedicated just to my tat gear, which, on a workshop, includes my laptop a webcam usb microphone. Sometimes I throw in a couple of exile are microphones and a digital recorder on there too, because you never know when you might have a chance to interview someone headphones. Of course, I probably have a computer mouse sometimes have a tablet and of course, all the different cables idead and chargers and power cords, and such you know pretty much anything for any eventuality I mean. If I could, I would pack a whole sound board in

Where do I like to have everything I might need in order to set up a temporary recording studio wherever I go now, I might not need all of that stuff on every work trip, but I have learned through experience that when you travel it's does to be prepared for anything. You never know when that awesome opportunity opens up while you're away from home. But that's just me if you travel you brother, We know exactly what you like too, which is why you know to go with you delta skymiles american express card. If you travel, you know prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life, everyone needs a rock can help. You turn the far fetched into within reach. When you have one you can reach your potential, your dreams, your odds, and when it comes to your financial goals, credential is the rock you can rely on our knowledge of all financial professionals. We can help you get to new heights plan, invest

inshore retire visit prudential dotcom, whose europe parental insurance company of america, north new jersey, So all these things can be pretty expensive and obviously law enforcement has a budget that they have to answer to. So some of them are funding the purchase of this material by filing it under counter terrorism strategy. federal funding, yeah, essentially they say we it wants to participate in this. We want to make sure we help protect national security, doing it on a local level, and then they get the federal grant to purchase the stuff, but then they are using it on a broader scale. So it's not like there now using it specifically or a counter terrorism they're using it. In all sorts of cases. There was a story about a sheriff own vehicle got broken into

and and whose phone was stolen, who decide to use this stuff to try and asked ostensibly to try and stop the the string of car break ins. would say that perhaps it was more personal than that, but the point being. That is was not a counter terrorism issue. This was someone breaking and entering into cars. Witches does that's a crime sure would you we. People have been arguing like what at what level of crime Do you consider the use of this particular type of technology necessary to employ yes Finally, given the expanse, not just in financial terms but in terms of manpower time, so that's that's one problem by its My spider sense is telling me that you have a bigger problem. I've got this. I've got so many problems with this, though. So, let's, let's talk about how it works first, because this is this is what leads into where the biggest problems I have with the technology come from, so

He took to understand how this works. He got to know how cell phone works alright and we're going to be super high level here, because I could do a full episode on how cell phones work and you guys would be having made because you're wondering why have pulled you, but typically, you know the easy way of explaining his cell phones broadcast over radio frequencies, and you have phone towers that represent a broadcast area, the towers are able to accept the incoming signals from a cell phone and outgoing signals that are going to cellphones within that. of service area, their doings over specific frequency to the phones. Your phone knows which frequency quote knows which frequency band, because there's a master control system, that's telling the phone tune into frequency so that you can receive and transmit information Nuclear using two frequencies are, you can receive and transmit at the same time there.

as you leave one cell phone service area and you're starting to get closer to another. Then you, be handed off right because if, if not once you move, too far away from the base station you no longer have service so similar to when you move into an area that doesn't have the towers that support them service you use Xavier, like an eighty anti customer and you go into an area- that's not Supervising tee, then dear, like your phone becomes a break right and whatever is on your phone. That's all you can use so you have to have this hand off technology for one tower to hand off the the service to another tower as your moving between them. So happening, is your phone is constantly sending little signals even when it's not directly in use, do to say here. I am its essentially saying. I'm here please paying a server, something it's exactly like pinging, a server is doing this bout every.

When the fifteen seconds this is why, even if you dont use your phone, the battery life gradually decreases. So the reason it does. It is very important sure, because if it didn't tell the cell phone towers hey here, I am you would never get tax yourself. How knesset aren't you never get a call you couldn't? play solitaire or whatever you can see the wouldn't know where your phone is, so it wouldn't be able to send a signal like it doesn't when dials your number, it doesn't magically connect to your phone. The system has to be aware of where you are, and it has this constant game of Marco polo to ensure that there's this seamless transition right, because you as a person, your mobile, so you can move from location to location. You are not always going to be x to the same cellphone tower all the time, so your phone has to constantly like every seven to fifteen seconds, say I'm here, because if a car

your travelling down the road you're moving in and out of different they'll tell arranges so with the different cell towers have to be aware of where your phone is so that you can continue to receive messages, phone calls that kind of stuff or make them that makes sense. Yeah. The problem is that, because of this technology, you know that this is what makes cell phones useful? Above has the same technology is also what makes this sting re technology possible. So cause: your phone is sending out these messages at your phone doesn't know where the next cellphone tower is its broadcasting. These low messages and the cellphone towers pick it up, upon the signal strength. The cellphone tower knows if you are moving toward it or moving away from it, the sting rate ends up making the cellphone tower. So your little cell phone sends a message. Enlisting re picked it up stingray, knows where your phone is, or at least knows, that your phone is in that area.

As the single get stronger listing? Re knows that your phone is getting closer to it. If you have triangulated this, then they knows where you are or if you have one of the other devices that pair with the sting re that can help track and locate the singer. Where you are there's a laptop that you would connect to this device. That would give you the redoubt that would be useful for a human being. Is right now we're talking all about technology that and debt. that machines could use. But it is not swell task as we would be able to see it, but the laptop eggs this is that in ways that make it possible for you to see me, maybe with a mapping software loading, the location against a map. As well as identification of the the phone numbers. Then the the id number that's unique to that particular mobile phone. So. The issue here is that the

this stingray will accept all, of those incoming messages in all the living here anyway. Within the area that then the sensitivity of that antenna. It will pick them up who is it lake? Is it just matter data Well yes. Originally first it's just loafers law just another day that just meditate or always hours ago. He has validated data. You don't need very much of it to start making some very scary conclusions rain. You can start to really narrow down who a person is based upon some methods, their routines, what they do in the real world and whether they do it the phone numbers they might be in contact, whether that time, the phone number of the device itself. Obviously it would be very or so I'd say you to you too, and then you are you are you? Are there ups ok

here in your van the power. I know because I go crazy, do we have a tank you do not have a. We have a very long time ago were non swanee that was swati. Wasn't a swanee by the way listeners is, is just to the northeast of atlanta. It's a little part of the metro, atlanta area and, and I have a tank here. So any way you are in a van- and you have heard about tanks, but you do not currently own one. You've got plenty of donuts to get you through the day Well, if you are in law enforcement- and I am offending you dear listeners- I'm merely poking fun. I look, you guys. At any rate, do you guys are looking at the incoming messages that are being hit, run or laptop you're? Looking specifically for- a phone number associated with a suspect, a person of interest. You want to be able to track this person down but so far, have been unable to do so. You have

This person may in fact be in this particular pride town, which is why you have power to your van all you are doing is looking for a hit of that particular number. As it moves through and once you do, you then try to triangulate you locate and then your ear send people out there to talk. this aspect or person of interest. That alone. That sounds like that's. Ok I mean There may be some problems we have here, but specifically looking for the hit you're, not looking at the massive amount of information, has come again you're. Looking something specific filtering, yeah really sooner job Jonathan vietnam now mad. I know that I know that dude. I know I know it's the pencil pushers who really are to blame. Don't don't don't bust, my chops, so at any rate,

yeah this case, you are specifically looking for a particular phone number is a little more tricky. If you don't know the number, though re air nyc, now you're looking for patterns now, you're, looking specifically for activities that match what you suspect. Your target is already doing there so possibly looking to find it what phone numbers are being used in an area, and this is where really gets tricky, because some of these devices, not all of them, but the sting reign. The trader fish included both can, tell you if someone makes a call from within that area the stingray covers. You can see what number they called, now, now at least with the basic stingray, you can listen in on the car, you just know the time the number and the duration of the call hold.

Also you again to a point where we can listen to these causes basic sting, re, yeah, ok, so Remember when I said you can upgrade so sting ray is it's a computer is what it boils down to me it's more than a computer, but it has elements of a computer. It runs software There is software that you can install the sting re that does allow you to listen and there is a fish hawk, which is software that allows you to eavesdrop upon conversations and there's also porpoise you might have noticed a theme. Who's gonna, say very florida makes sense, but anyways though the porpoise LAO allows you to see tat that are set out, while through here so its again its messages or phone calls that are sent from the phone out through the the a sting re, they go on

this obviously raises a lot of very tricky questions singularly when it comes to basic rights, because if you are just taking in everything- and you can potentially read all the text, messages are listening on any of the conversations that are going through them remember. This is just based on geography, targeting

if you're getting everything, there's no problem cause, there's no probable cause, there's no warrant so back in our scenario, Ben and I in our readout. Well, that's, okay, I'm driving! So then you're, alright, so you're, the real man. So you can see Ben will be able to see all of this on a readout, a matte look a look at his number: it's been going back and forth from these two cell phone towers, every friggin thursday, or it could be Ben, saying a matte. Look. This doofus over here thinks his girlfriend's going to make him dinner tonight, and we already know she ain't going to do that. Right, buddy, you guys are so good later after this comes out, we're going to get hold of her and one drive we stopped on the street, so we've got

or to say in this classic episode of tech stuff. After these quick messages- and I I I I I I I I call the nineteen moves fast and now you can too. If you feel symptoms, even if they're mild, you should test fast test positive and at high risk for severe cold and nineteen, then act fast with authorized oral treatments that can be taken at home and must be taken within five days from symptoms begin covey. Nineteen moves fast, and now you can to ask your health care provider. If it all, treatment is right, for you learn about a treatment option

drink cv nineteen that com. This message is sponsored by Pfizer. It's never been easier to communicate with people, but it's also never been harder to know which platform you're supposed to be communicated on there's a similar solution ring central is the complete phone system that makes it easy to call meet message, even facts all in one out and with seamless device. Switching you'll always be able to stay on top of business, even as your business grows, because whether you're working from home, the office or anywhere else ring central can help you be there without having to be there when it comes to communicate. In simple, is better learn more at rings. Central dotcom ring central, simpler communications. Every travel broad knows exactly what they need to do in order to have the most successful and incredible trip, whether that's how to travel with a new baby, how to find the best restaurants and a new city how to look for the best wifi for those work from home moments.

and you know, I love bringing all my devices with me when I travel, I usually have a sturdy suitcase dedicated just to my tat gear, which, on a workshop, includes my laptop a webcam usb microphone. Sometimes I throw in a couple of exile, our microphones and a digital recorder on there too, because you never know when you might have a chance to interview someone. A headphones. Of course. I probably have a computer mouse sometimes have a tablet and, of course, all the different cables idead and chargers and power cords and such ennobling much anything for any eventuality I mean. If I could, I would pack a whole sound aboard where too, I like to have everything I might need in order to set up a temporary recording studio wherever I go now. I might not need all of that stuff on every workshop, but I have learned through experience that when you travel best to be prepared for anything. You never know when that awesome opportunity opens up while you're away from home. But that's just me if you travel you brother,

we know exactly what you like too, which is why you know to go with he delta sky miles american express card. If you travel, you know Prudential knows the importance of having a rock in your life, everyone needs iraq. Iran can help. You turn the far fetched into within reach. When you have one you can reach a potential. Your dreams Oh and when it comes to your financial goals, credential is the rock you can rely on our knowledge of all financial professionals we can help you get to new heights plan, invent inshore, retire. Visit prudential dotcom, whose europe potential shortcoming of america, north new jersey funny. I happened our age rate you ve. Technically, if you have the right technology right being be the appropriate one for this

and you have the correct software on it, then You could be. You could start filtering through. You could potentially read anything that coming through that that stingray device. So again it would be any phone that was within that range of the antenna You wouldn't necessarily, do I mean you probably wouldn't be storing it. All I mean you could. If you had a large enough hard drive, that'll be another thing. You would need to have writer in your a ray of technology that'd be a lot of junk data, piling up very quick yeah, and so this is starting to sound, probably very similar to the discussions we've had about the an essay and the fact that they have been collecting cell phone data, the the they're doing it at the provider level rain like they're there they've got their ears on this national or even global level, whereas we are really talking about very regional effects here

yet still very concerning how much how much information can it actually captured? Well, you know it's here, lorry here's the thing we don't know the full stand of what it can capture, because secret have to be kept for your safety. From me, the creators of stingray or from the police departments in the law enforcement. I'm just gonna say yes, ok from both so there is a story recently. I think it was, I want to say was santa clara california, but I could be wrong. It was. It was a town in California, however, that certainly declined to purchase. From harris corporation because they said there were agreements that they would have been forced to enter into that word. Get them from releasing any information about the product, even in the face of a fee,

I have information act, request wow, so an ironclad in the atheists like a non disclosure agreement to trump all a nondisclosure. How the heck do you get around? Therefore, a you mostly just drag your heels as long as possible, and hope that the judge that ends up hearing any case amount and is not savvy enough to understand the implications of this technology. You can appeal for national security. I think re. Yes, one reason! Well, that's! Essentially what they say is that if we were to tell you what The capabilities of this technology were there The bad guys would be able to work around it. Thus making the technology useless and we'd only be getting your boring text messages instead of the bad guy stuff. He will it's okay, just to play the advocate here that your reasoning which incredibly slippery and dangerous it!

it makes sense, if you think again about the ostensible purpose right the the idea that this stuff could be rendered useless if it wasn't a secret, but also I'm just going to say the word, I'm going to say is convenience Kenya is a reason why, in its is when you have like a rubber stamp as a secret, Then? How do you have oversight? How can make certain that the The figures that have been put into authority positions in to help the suit sense. Now. Can you make sure that they are doing that that day, neither they ve, been they ve been, asked with as those two abusing it or misusing it- maybe not even abusing it on purpose but perhaps through We all know no known bullet maliciousness should have been using it incorrectly, and there have been arguments the judges have allowed. This technology to be used. because

explanations, they were given about what the technology did were. Purposefully, vague and limited, That they would not know the full extent of what this technology does so, in other words, here's where we're going to kind of transition into more of the policy stuff, because you know that's really why I got you guys to come on here technology we gonna covered. The very basic ideas he's a man in the middle kind of attack The reason why I brought you on here is because This is my own personal perspective, my own opinion, but my opinion is that this technology is, dangerously close, if not identical to the concept of issuing a general warrant is precisely what the fourth amendment was supposed to protect us from

So the idea being that here, the united states and by the way this technology is being used in other places. In fact, one the reasons that are brought up is because recently sky news was reporting about how its being used in the uk in it. been thought to have been used in the uk for a while, but now, there's kind of essentially ironclad evidence that, yes, it's being used as we also the reason why I brought you guys in is this. Does idea of. one of the founding principles of the united states of america, was that the colonists- They weren't so crazy about the british coming up and going to every single house looking for a specific person with no reason to suspect that the personal interest was actually in the house. They were sorry, it's just a general blanket search right. So

the search and seizure the idea being that we're looking for this person, this person is is bad, and so you have no rights until we find this person, so we're going to go into your house and turn it upside down. Looking for this person, if they're, not there too well, okay, well good for you too bad for us we're going to go! Do it to the next family so this approach of using a device to pull in all incoming data, even if you're looking for our really bad person, you're doing everything doesnt. Seem that different to me. then the approach of the this bad personnel? There we're going to go through everybody's house until we find that person. So Neither a couple of things you have to establish, one of whom is does that and that you're sending out belong to you Is it really yours for you know, is that the companies that you're using this to a senseless-

the information to assault our to another person right and then for me. If you look at things like when the boston bombing occurred and then the search for the sign of brothers afterwards and when the police were going through an essentially doing what you're saying searching through houses yeah with just not really a general or but something kind of similar to that where no they didn't have what they didn't have a warrant for each specific house. They went right which they're supposed to if, if your rights as it is in our supposed to say, listen if you dont have a warrant. You cannot come into my house that is a constitutional right guaranteed to me. It's the old, the old ticking time bomb reasoning which I find disingenuous win. The idea we heard it before with the idea of using torture to I'll take some sort of confession or insider information where people would say well. Tor

there's not ordinarily allowed, but if there is a bomb that is going to go off in a set amount of time, we have one person who knows the information in custody. Then shouldn't we tortures of money to save a hundred people or whatever the number is, and this with woods Learn to me about this is that this encounters so many ways to bend rules letter that exists for a reason yeah, as you said, and it doesn't really, provide a way to bend those rules back to their original shape. I mean Jonathan, I can think of already several scenarios wearing this guy get sticky very quickly. Matt. I love that you mentioned it might not be the person actually using the foe. Re might be some one else. I took a phone right and used as a burner, but the the innocent person, whose name is at times? to that number that idea there going to be

automatically suspect number one, or maybe even public enemy number. One the question is what, if what, if this, sir, right. So, let's go back in not you still carts Jonathan trust me. I know your special investigator aright. He came in. He said I'm taken over this investigation like a little flip phone chasm from the later seasons, exiles, exactly right, black to black tie. Hopefully- and you say that we are looking for you know, bad guys, name here, and why we're looking, though, however, our search, our backing linger approach. Brings in another number that pings on your radar because You were already suspicious of one person doing your federal level cry right. So this person- and we were not looking for just showed up, happens, then

warming. Always I gotta take over the investigation. I've got a lot of us assess of various crime dramas and that's what the that's. The only thing the fbi is around to do is to put the local police force out of this was my jc. That's the way to go. You have to keep putting your sunglasses on and taking them off. Usually you just hear the hoo boy, I'm going to scenario kind of like that. Unless Jonathan do you want to dunno answer? No, no! I did the only answer to that I have is that I would imagine that italy, until there are some strong precedent set in in court about the actual use of this technology. What it really can do, and whether or not it truly is constitutional to use it in the way that's being used. I would imagine at least until that happens there. I accept that act on that information because of

If no one has come out and said can't do that I'm going to do that and then. I don't mean to cast aspersions on law enforcement. The fbi. I realise that they have incredibly difficult and very high stakes, jobs, absolutely right and and in order for them to be able to do those jobs in an increasingly complex technological world. there are some very tough questions we have to answer, but The problem I have is that these are questions that that seem to already have been answered in the past. We just have applied the answer yet or people judges in particular have an understood the implications of this technology and that we are seeing some civil liberties fade away as a result or get less like blankets like you are protected against this, except in all of these other.

newer situation, many of which we cannot legally tell you about, because now well secured right, because if we told you about how we're violating your civil liberties, then the bad guys would win like well technically, if you're telling me that my civil liberties are being violated, but you can't tell me how the bad guys have won, get it It's an interesting dilemma is one that we keep running into, and this is not the first time I love the emotion, there's president, through about this? Throughout history I mean back when it was just the post office right there were. There were still these ongoing debates about what kind of right to privacy should someone expect when they're using the postal system? What. You also mentioned advocacy group

So is there is some organised opposition to there's? Quite if, but quite a lot does love disorganized opposition do, but the organised opposition includes, like the electronic frontier foundation, the f, F, F, there's the american civil liberties union acl, you others, epic, they're all these different groups that are all about privacy and civil rights that have identified prob some areas with this technologies, some of which have been they ve kind of some form of couched their arguments largely because they say we can't come. and say how strongly strongly we feel about this. Because of secrecy involved. Without knowing everything we dont- want to suspect the worst, but we can't disk it either because you won't tell us what it does or how its being used.

I know, but there there are a lot who are saying you need to have have rules set in place on how this technology can be used. If, in fact, it is legal to use it at all, example, perhaps before you use this. You have to secure a warrant that specifies who you we're looking for and narrows that down the point where you can't just throughout a net, everybody whose cotton the net their lives are turned upside down for the duration of you, sorting out which person is the one you actually are interested in, but they'll never knew Jonathan the collateral damage isn't really collateral. If they have no idea well, they might I never know, and you could argue that in a world where you never know that this is happening, and it's never affecting you mean like this one if ever he had stick with me, are in a world where you, you don't know that it's happening to you and it's not having any noticeable effect on your life. Ultimately,

you might be able to go to sleep at night and think. Well, it doesn't really matter because if it is not affecting my life, then I mean I don't want it to happen and I'm still going to protest it happening because I don't think it's right, but if it doesn't have a noticeable effect on my life At the end of the day, when I draw my last breath, it hasn't really made a difference. Who cares but we might also live in a world where sometimes it does affect us, even if we are perfectly innocent and all in the eyes of the law just drop some examples of Vienna savour or is it like? a person who decides to use the inner says wide array of of surveillance techniques to look in on an ex girlfriend. That's exactly the scenario I was going to bring up if you and I back in our scenario. Okay, I decided to go back and use the machine for a little bit because we park to get some coffee or something right, and I see a number that I recognize pop up yeah and I'm just like ooh

what is my ex wife new husband talking about oh and then go over there. Down the rabbit hole into, your personal thing. They then this is the thing it's it's. You know The technology allows Is that to happen and humans being human, are going to do it right like it's not a question of whether the technology itself is good or bad because the tool you might say, is a tool that is appropriate. Is there any is there are other appropriate use cases for this tool? And if so, how are they define I think that's the important step have to come to the conclusion of this tool makes sense If so, in which context does it make sense, and how can we be certain that in any given use case. It fits those contexts that it. If we can answer all those to our satisfaction, fine

I question whether that's possible ways particular technology, but the problem is that people outside of that right and if there is the capability of someone to do this, they use this technology in a selfish. Possibly harmful way. For then someone will do it. It's not a question of if it's a question of when and how frequently and because we ve seen it with the usa? Sure it's again are you. You have to remember that at the end of the day, there are real human beings in charge of using this technology, and real human beings have real motivations that happen. Every single day of their lives like you and me we go through our lives and we realise our man, if only I knew what was going on in that person's head? Oh wait I can figure it out, because I've got access to this technology. It happens right, it does.

the one thing immediately that we could say that might be our goal. of hope with this is that many of these surveillance technologies or proprietary systems, rather do have strict usage logs were wherein you know any user with an idea. The attract, so lieutenant frederick would be for they would say, hey you to know why we ramsden private office, I read in the police: have you militarized the entire police force? Yes over several years, rookies afraid I well whatever your position would be. There would be somebody over you, ideally who would say: hey We noticed that you were searching. This number, which is not part of it and you were pretty in death, suits that's one thing, but then again it relies, as you said, on the policy on the system. I'd like to take the danger either

further, because one of the dangerous potential things about the usa programme, possibly sting ray and its other accrued from all is the idea that could be used by corrupt people with access to the technology. To do like smear campaigns, george, you do blackmail, or even extortion and the moon, was frightening thing to me. Although it is, it is. offensive the idea that an innocent persons, terror- A late night, you up text messages might be collected it saved from posterity is more frightening that this could be used to. Curtail people who were fighting against oh yeah yeah. I mean there's there's that possibilities. While we grant this, would

a lot of that responsibility falls on the harris corporation and how they deal with the year orders. I imagine that they mostly mean before They were really working with the fbi and some military companies or military organisations. I should say was only relatively recently in the less it may be: five to ten years that they started really working with the local law enforcement agencies I don't know There are other customers are like or who they Ah, I see a bite You can presumably Emily, even if even events not made by hairs corporation, because it's out there because people know about it, then that's enough for someone to say hey. Its ports of money into making one of these are our own, so we can spy on. People in the cia, or

the cia might say lets users we can spy on people in other countries. I mean It's definitely a difficult, difficult subject: its tricky, obviously spying throughout history has all been hell. Let's find out what they know without letting them know. We know right, and so at some point you're like well, if we, if we assume that the the premise that spies are necessary is true, then these, New technologies need to exist for us to be able to do that, Then maybe you maybe you would argue that spying is not something. Could have been worse place. Oh Jesus, this is something I know we really wanted your opinion I'll get four for a while. So Have we and we asked Alice winter? Does the same question? Is a filmmaker made, the deep web less?

have we reached the point of no return with technology? Has technology render the concept of individual privacy obsolete, or will it do so? Ok? Well, this is super complicated right. This is a great question stated for the exciting conclusion of this text of classic episode right after we take this break. I I I I I I I I call the nineteen moves fast and now you can too. If you feel symptoms, even if they're mild, you should test fast test positive and at high risk for severe cold and nineteen, then act fast with authorized oral treatments that can be taken at home and must be taken within five days when symptoms begin. Covey nineteen moves fast, and now you can to ask your health care provider. If it all, treatment is right, for you learn about a treatment option

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And you know I love bringing all my devices with me when I travel are usually have a sturdy suitcase dedicated just to my tat gear, which, on a workshop, includes my laptop a webcam usb microphone. Sometimes I throw in a couple of exile, our microphones and a digital recorder on there too, because you never know when you might have a chance to interview someone headphones. Of course, I probably have a computer mouse sometimes have a tablet and, of course, all the different cables idead and chargers and power cords, and such you know pretty much anything for any eventuality I mean. If I could, I would pack a whole sound board there too, I like to have everything I might need in order to set up a temporary recording studio wherever I go now. I might not need all of that stuff on every workshop, but I have learned through experience that when you travel it's best to be prepared for anything. You never know when that awesome opportunity opens up while you're away from home. But that's just me if you travel uber,

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what they are saying where you got that technology? That's one thing and you could argue that, as long as that technology exists, then privacy might only be an illusion maybe something you believe you have. But in reality your information is being elected somewhere course. We know that anything we post or call or text through or whatever, it's going through and infrastructure, so there is at least one entity out there. That has the access to the question is whether anyone is looking at it or if it's just, if it's just a conduit right. Are you to argue that privacy is just an illusion in that case, there's another argument to make the has nothing to do with surveillance facebook twitter we are, we are voluntarily

sharing, more and more of our lives, instagram pinterest, really anything you can think of where you are allowed a platform people are taking advantage of it youtube another great example periscope, so you're you're, you're volunteering to share, a lot more information and Don't necessarily think, while you're doing it, this could potentially put other things in my life, at risk of becoming public knowledge whether it's because you're not paying enough attention or you just don't realize how much information you are revealing. Every time you post something so you can argue in that case is. He might also be an illusion not because there are all these ways of staring at what's really going on, but because We are actually giving everything away and we're just not aware of it or not

aware of the consequences of what we are own actions happened to be. I would argue we haven't gone too far in the sense that we could if motivated to do so given the authority to do so, reverse a lot of the things that have been happening The question of whether that's a reality or not, I mean that's kind of like the pie in the sky, optimistic idealism. The idea that people could actually be motivated to take action specific. Only through voting and through campaigning and through breathings, to attention and the word out there in getting people behind the argument, hey, we need to address this and we need to have it addressed to our satisfaction, not just its secret. You can't know, I think it's possible. I think it would be really hard and I don't

you know, I think it's possible. I dont these the plausible outcome, if, a being perfectly honest, It will require enormous changes in momentum among vat huge entities out there that are bigger than any one person. S So, even if you say that you have an ideal candidate for president united states in mind, some one that you truly believe as the best interests of the citizens at heart and to protect constitutional rights, so they want to do right by the citizens and make sure that the things they do truly do protect them and do so in a way that follows the rules, even if that person exists and has put into the position of president? You still have a very vague out, still live from the local level too, and I say to him organizations that do not directly answer to the present. It's not like the president is capable of changing

everything by flicking a want of fact they're, not supposed to be able to do tat. Have the position of president free dangerously enzo, this is why, until I become benevolent dictator, we're gonna have these problems. Yeah. You know you, you ve been saying that more and more often, I appreciate the posters that you put up around the office. the area there a little bit stark- I dont know I you know, I think they might be a bit to soviet, yeah, I'm you would help if there were an english, but like crush

this thing beneath the boot I just like the fist looked really like empowering- and now I owe it does. Man know he does look good. Does Israel his knife you're both analysts now or at any rate? No, but this is. This was a reason I wanted you guys on. Here is because I know you guys are. I assume you feel similarly to to what I have stated, but I mean if there's, if I have, in any way. Misconstrued. I would definitely once you have the opportunity to address it While I will, let Ben finish this idea that I'm going to start, but when we spoke with MR winter, he had a surprisingly positive outlook: relieved her of privacy, that's wonderful! He did the people that he's been speaking with and communicating with in his region. on the subject of the deep, when he is finding that there are a lot of people who are freely focused on increasing data

and finding ways to encrypt almost all communication that is done from a private persons level. That a company that is even handling your data won't be able to decrypting right. So, in other words, the the The company that handles it literally is just the conduit a career. I cannot see the content and most it'll see where it's coming from and where it's going, but beyond that, not what the actual from, she knows he used the phrase. One phrase remember that he used was a renaissance of privacy, which I it which I found inspiring because the the old arguments of well. If you have nothing to worry about it, why are you worried about? Hiding right? Is it's kind of silly when you consider that we do live in a world now where, let's say Jonathan, let's say that you as an fbi agent, love the part italian so much. He said you know, I gotta pull up my ten states

from langley and I'm going to come down here and I am going to I'm going to, they fear, and fact I'm gonna run for city, commissioner, because I think this kind stuff needs to be dealt with in the public eye and then all of a sudden, all of this stuff. Every time you use your phone in their region got leaked by somebody near or maybe running for sheriff right. You know that the shares at least the county once later corrupt game here. Yeah well or or even just something that, like. You know a mistake that you make. in point sure, and it may be. It may be one that you how it could be that you something you consciously dead or not even a conscious mistake, something that due to your actions has accidently happened and that you have already taken care of it. You are fixed whatever problems there are, whatever the nature of that thing, is you have

you done your time, however, that that might be for some. that account like let's say that you do want to run for a local gold position and it has no bearing whatsoever on your ability to carry out your duties. Sure We live in a world now that stuff comes back, I'm here like big time comes back, None of us are saints, you know no one. No one has gone through life completely unsullied even we are at the best of intentions. Something has happened. Some point in your life, maybe we're just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that can be bad enough. That's true! I I do want to see I

I really enjoy I always enjoy being on the show, And- and I don't want to speak for you man, but I'm I'm great on that hates it, and I'm grateful that we have a horrible time. You guys a visceral president of ads ability, just silently weep of sadness or imperialist, salty, salty beard, with the only thing I would add to what we're saying is that I love that we were talking about how we are not casting aspersions on the engine It was working and law enforcement. When I so often a incredibly thankless job ITALY, at times thankless job and when europe, when you are right presenting the good guys? the force of the force crime prevention in our society than the thing is that the game you are playing is stacked again, still because the bad guys, whoever they may be, do not have to follow the same rule right so I

While I think that with while I think it's often lisa fuel for people to demonize law enforcement as a faceless entity, rather than a group of human beings right. I do completely believe that this is. Will technology- I I don't a lot of cases of it. Successful the acl. You is try their best to make a map of all the police areas are using this. By these still, they had to say that this map is incomplete. this is, I believe out there very close to a kind of pandora's box is, as we know, the price of technology continually decreases right, yeah. So happens when it's a single raise the price of appears for well the eyelids its being made in such limited amounts of either you have to have the demand there and you have. I would imagine there will also be laws that will limit the use of this, because you

of the giant phone companies that all lobby very hard data. Want the ability for someone to spoofer cellphone cell phone tower into the hands of an average citizen as true that that their business depends upon not happening Israel you're, not the average citizen. No, no, I'm the future benevolent easy to hear a new world order. I thinking you tank. The can I dont leading tank on speed is always wanting. You have a thing yet this is this fantastic in. I really appreciate the opportunity to let more people know about that here and don't like us at this. Technology has been around for a while, in fact that the sting re stuff really started hitting headlines a couple years ago, beckoned, twenty thirteen, that's when I was really starting to get I just think you reminded than use more than a decade or that, so it is good to be aware of it. It's good to ask these questions

like, I said, we may at some point, come to a point where we are able to answer. The questions have been asking to a point where maybe I'd be like ok I understand that in the world we live in the reality of the world, we live in, that, under these situations, this might be unacceptable use of the technology. it's just right. Now we haven't don't have those answers. Because of secrecy, though yeah. It's is definitely something to be aware of. I dont want to be a fear, monger or anything like that, but it is important. You know about it, because I mean it's, out there, whether you know or not, it is their citizens letter to know are able guys thank you so much for joining the show, obviously You can find matt and bends work at stuff. They don't want you to know. Well, I hope you feel

did you say this enjoyed that classic episode about law enforcement surveillance, always a tricky thing to talk about? And if you have suggestions for topics I should cover in future episodes text please reach out to me. The best way to do so is on twitter. The handle for the show is text, stuff, H, sw and I'll talk to you again really soon. The tech stuff is an I heart, radio production for more podcasts from iheart radio visit, the I heart, radio, app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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