Lama Tsomo is one of the first American women to be ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist lama, or spiritual teacher. Born Linda Pritzker, she is part of the family that built the Hyatt hotel chain. But Lama Tsomo embarked on a very different path, diving deeply into Buddhism, spending months on retreat, learning Tibetan and teaching around the world. She sat down with Dan Harris to talk about her story and to detail some of these Tibetan practices.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see this is the ten percent happier Podcast Dan Harris Lama. Solo has a truly fascinating story: she's one of the first american women to be ordained as a tibetan Buddhist Lama or spiritual teacher. Her birth name is Linda Pritzker, she's part of the famous Pritzker family, which built the hired hotel chain, but she has taken a very, very different path in her life, diving very deeply into Buddhism spending months on retreat, actually learning to speak to Bettin and now teaching all over the world. She just written a book,
called wise. The Dalai Lama always smiling in which she tells her story, also details some of these two Bettin practices which, to those of us in the west to are practising either secular, my fulness or insight meditation will be new, indifferent, an extremely interesting, so Lama, Tom thanks for being here that to be here thanks for having regulations on your new book. Thanks we're just discussing before the Pike S started, Iver Surveyors who met. Only read about two thirds of it because I ran out of time, but it's really really really interesting and again, as somebody who's been trained in both secular, marvellous end in sight, meditation or tariff on meditation. It's all this stuff is new to me in just deeply deeply fascinating. You do a really good job of explaining it in simple terms, but but that letter the beginning. So how did you go from being a Pritzker to to midsummer? How did that happen? How did that pretty big shift happen?.
ok, so I don't think you mean about the names themselves, no though I was just really to me it sort of irregular american person? One to be happy all the time and never suffer and despite purse, bring happiness all day every and in trying to avoid suffering all day every day and then in dreams at night, probably pursuing the same thing, I wasn't succeeding in avoiding suffering or always being happy. And actually my life had angst in it as all of our lives do me? No, no, I'm thinking of the word Duca, which is translated as suffering but actually is more alike baked in insufficiency of life. So me just copyright, there's or ducas an agent word in the polish language, the language
the Buddha, which means which is translated now as suffering but the Buddhas Principle pronouncement was, life is suffering which is. I think widely agreed known among experts to be kind of a mistranslation gap, as he wasn't saying that life is like having a year having your innerds picked out by crows, he was saying that life is inherently unsatisfying. If you're always latching other things, they will not last debts, one problem and also trying to avoid the things that we dont like so there's a famous then saying life. Enlightenment is easy for those who have no preferences. The problem is the course we have serious preferences and we keep putting what we fur sort of as an overlay on top of what actually is so that turns out to be a source of suffering
you are very open and honest and I figure courageous way about your childhood. You say this is a quote from the book: throughout my childhood. I felt lonely sad and not very safe. I used to cry for no apparent reason and I would just waiting to graduate. School and leave home. The underlying tone of that time was a melancholic longing, though I didn't even know, for what now what was going on? Oh gosh, I think what we were just describing was really at the root of it, and I don't think I'm alone in having felt that way. So there are lots of I mean each person's childhood is unique, and yet we can all relate to some both statements. I think so. I think
root of it. I wasn't being shown how to navigate life in a skilful way. my parents weren't shown that either nobody was teaching it in school answer. I wasn't learning it and is now it turns out. I was being pretty bad at it. I came later to learn now fast forward to when I spent a time on the cushion, and you know I had a chance to watch what my mind, as I could see, I was I own movie- producer and writer- was starring in my own movie and I wasn't even aware of that and I hadn't learned how to do it. Well, so. Why is it a surprise at the movie is turning out badly do? Who, at what point? Do you start meditated
It seemed like a good idea to me when I was living in the country and in GOSH. I think I was like twenty years old, so first knowledge yeah, I dead named graduate college. I left college because it was I felt like I don't like the way they were teaching things I M getting my degree after having my kids and then my masters as well, but any reprieve Lama days, even though you reduce emotive, you had a brig conventional life got married, had kids in some ways: oh yeah, although homes setting in the country is not something every member has no, I don't know how many goat owners there are in this country, and I think it is a small demographic whose progress is actually entirely targeted to go down, Ok, so you didn't want allotted listeners now, I'm gonna get. You succeeded, have actually thinking about getting a couple: a goat, secure, W livelihoods,
still, I live in the country again and very happy to its natural habitat. So you you'd be dropped out of school. You, when you were home staring for awhile, and that was the unconventional part of it, but and in Europe of meditating but you also got married and had some kids, it is all in the pre. Yes, I'm not I'm not being go kids at that point that these are the human children. and you three of them. This is pre three of them, so that in this is pre. Even though you were meditating, this is Pre Lama day it was pre instruction, so I really had the feeling I must be doing a terrible job at this, and I probably was, but nevertheless when I gave up, because I thought it- I'm not doing myself any good here. That's when Five years passed and I realized oh, my gosh I'm
not doing with my life one day. I need to be doing and I'm really off course. I was with the wrong people doing the wrong stuff and that kind of thing and living in the wrong place, it just suddenly sort of kind of came to an end said. This is not my path in life. This is not the life there, I need to live everybody's got their own. You know, and I just feel, I'm off track and so I decided I have to resume meditating, because I realized so every day I was not reacting to things the outside for at least those fifteen minutes is fifteen minute meditations the time and that allowed me to just kind of like that, eight ball. With the message bubbling up, I was there. I was there to see it
I was there to hear it, and so all the thousands of decisions I was making them throughout my day was a word that much more on track because of having tuned into myself. Push the reset button, whatever you want to say and so ok. Well, so it turns out. Meditation is important to do even if it's bad meditation, but imagine if I did good meditation though I taken piano as a kid, and I knew that if you go to a teacher for lessons who knows how to do what you're trying to do your chin in so doing it better? A pretty good, so I apply that same logic to meditation. So then I ok, I'm just gonna, you deserve
Sound the note out there in the world, I want to find my teacher, and so I just sort of silently created that aspiration, and it was very clear about you know I want somebody who's really accomplished. I want somebody who also knows the scholarly tradition behind it, whose good at the teaching process so and so forth, and I had a pretty good clear list, but I forgot one thing I forgot to require must speak English, so I met took was on our group J. My teacher said aunt em again, you can catch that the London HA near did I I couldn't say it for a long time to glue song uck repartee to talk took it means a reincarnated Lama. Ok, let's like the title or wanted it, only one of the titles and then Song OC is his actual name and then really
J is also a title, meaning like high Lama is, I think, how people tend to refer to it here. Master teacher yeah yeah, so you met him, I met him and and realize he was the one I was looking for at first so was until I met him again when he came to my house, do teach somebody else and I was just sort of the hosting them that's when I got to sit in on some of the teaching and then some more and you know the kind of working out an somewhere along the line. I realized. Oh, my gosh. I can feel the inner just kind of this. Knowing this is my teacher of a million were questions. What the teacher, but just just situate me chronologically here. How long ago was this you you had married and divorced and had three children,
with a groan. What was going on in your yes, I married had the three children and then got divorced in that order. I get there. I was robbed a conventional in that way. Yoga and let's see I must have been somewhere around gosh late thirties. When I met him and train remember exactly the year. It was one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, when I met him here. That was it so that yeah, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four and so that was preceded, though by my already having started. As I said, Sir put up the car, when the Samson I'm, I was now setting my sites on finding a teacher and sir said: I don't care what flavour
as far as Sir, what lineage or tradition they came from, I dont even specify Buddhist, but I just found myself gravitating to Buddhism, and I started with the very my very Erst Buddhist retreat. I ever went to or meditation retreat or I finally got some instruction was taught by Sharon, Salzburg and just building if familiar names, I hope to our listen assurance, Ellsberg, a recent guest on the back ass and Joseph Goldstein, a future guest and also my meditation, dieter so I didn't, bravado really appealed to me and that's the school in which they teach, which is the kind of the old School Buddhism. Yes, and so the first one that the Buddha laid out for students so that did appeal to me and I was doing daily meditations already, but then I did it according to their destruction and I did
for a while, but it didn't quite feel you know it. Point I was needing to sort of try things on four size it. How does this feel for me, because this is a very personal thing and no one lineage her path is going to be right for everybody, and even the Buddha laid out these different. Lineages and so on, and there were some lineages and signs of worth because we're all different. So I I that- and it was like good, but that wasn't shirt was dearest- absolutely hitting the spot for me- I then studied then, with her arose. She that's like an abbot fur. Mystery and he was american. He spoke English. Thank goodness. However, he was not. we might teacher and then wasn't hitting this thought for me I actually preferred tear of auditors and but then I
who live near by inviting American Lama from the tibetan tradition, which his father Yonah. To her house- and he began to how about that tradition? I I thought oh, this is. This is really interesting. I think this feels more right to me, but I'd better road test, these methods and see for me, else how that feels. So I was doing well known as the preliminary practices, which is a set of five practices and its fairly foundational within Tibetan Buddhism I was doing that on retreat at this. I can lamas retreat when I was just about to get to practice number three. Ah, you sort of go into progression when it took
don't knock dropped in to this centre in the middle of the desert in New Mexico to teach teachings on fascist Iphone, which was the third in the progression. That was the next thing I was coming to just so happened so he comes in from nowhere and his teaching. The next thing are about to do, and I get yet that that was my teacher. I didn't catch on so wasn't until he came to me, how to teach that american Lama that I was like a weight since my teacher. What was it about me? You know you. Can you speak the same language? Why did you feel like this? Is my teacher I will recognition as a funny thing. Isn't it I mean though there lamas relationship, is very different from a meeting your spouse there. Still, this sort of just recognition
moment when you got all this. Is that the person for me so it's interesting as it is a very intimate relationship, but not at all romantic. It's a relationship that actually Westerners, I didn't have any precedent for as much use you say the book, morph more profound and intimate than a romantic relationship more enduring than familial ones, Well, yeah, if you believe in reincarnation, that can be the case. You actually actually you pull up another what were you just a play off that as Rinpoche? I knew this your teacher ass. He knew beginning, and I came to know much later. Our relationship had begun lifetimes ago and will know. no doubt go into future ones. Why do you? Why do you believe that
again. Sometimes there are things you come to just know and as I've spent more time in meditation certain in acquiring my distraction to the point where I can just no more things. That's one of the things I ve known at the odd thing is, though I remember as a kid playground talking with my best friend and we were like. So what animals were you in past lives and we never hurt reincarnation. So I dont know why I may just be inclined to think that way. I can't really say, but
For me, it's not something that I need to wait until science can prove it cause. That's gonna be a tough one, but is something that I feel I just know, but would you call that faith than but not you would I would long power but words in your mother. Then you tell me how wrong favouring a blind faith in your view. I am glad you that distinction, because for me it's not blind faith. Faith is a funny word, especially for westerners, because when people say in English have faith, they generally mean give up having proof,
you are so in and with blind faith is kind of the parents, ethical implication I'm so I'm not comfortable with blind faith and that wasn't when I was raised with even in a jewish household tat blind faith. We had these rousing dinner table debates, you read about in the book and they were lots of fun, but certainly nobody was expected to take anything on blind faith but but boots within her because I would imagine there wasn't like some sort of empirical proof offered up to you in your meditation practice. How did you arrive at this their bone level, knowing so something that I come to earlier when I was studying young work, Carl Young, when I was in my masters programme, which we conclude left that part of your biography out that you are right. It yeah
as I was studying young reproving now, I'm a terrible pike has to us, but carry on doing great. Thank you. I think I think, for the reasons I have faith in you. Thank you anyway. I've had some evidence. anyway, so young was an interesting balance of objective, rigorous scientific study. He did some wonderful studies on how the brain works on association but then he also gave credence to inner experience and he did his own three retreat, for example, and spend a lot of time by himself and looked deeply into his subjective, experience and the scientists involved with the studies the Dalai Lama in mind in life were asked.
To my life, and I shall which is where you were involved with it, as if I understand, which is basically a consortium of scientists who work with the Dalai Lama to research, the impact of contemplative practices on the mind and the brain. that's right and at one point the scientists were sort of cajoled until there is a whole debate? First about objective exploration of truth and subjective exploration of truth, and the scientists were, you note, trained to be very leary of subjective experience and their thing. How can you try and then and the Dalai Lama and some from his and things were saying well if your mind is trained to be more stable, then what you learn from subjective investigation can be more trustworthy, so that,
Haven't you ve found that to be the case in my experience this, or does it I'm just trying to get a sense of the city you in your meditation. Can you see in and rum, recall interaction between you and your teacher impasse lives or safe for did it a future to get a sense of subsequent loss where did it a little? Not that good? So what my teachers better to what is the try to get a sense of what would take somebody from you with your background and bring you too point where I would imagine if I had tapped on the shoulder when you were twenty five and said to you: hey you're, gonna, be This guy, who you're going to arrive at the conclusion you've been friends with for several lifetimes and will continue to be in future lifetime. You might have rolled your eyes, maybe maybe that wasn't the type of thing you de I can shrug my elders out who knows I have no idea in towns will out there
What then, what I'm just trying to it given my mindset trying to understand why? What in your meditation experience, would give you the confidence that this is true? I've had enough experience of just knowing something and then having that be proof, now in objective reality that I've begun to be able to trust that more and so I went, I would say that's one way that I felt I could trust that another is just reading occur and and hearing accounts of people who have remembered very specific things about a previous life, particularly when they had a sudden death. at a young age. for some reason it remain.
more clear in their minds and then for these train to that masters. Such as my teacher and in many other, their written historical accounts of their remembering very specific things about future lives that they predicted and then came to pass past lives. That then who played out in the one that they were then incarnate in and writing, but also modern accounts. So, though, sort of gave me a little boost and confidence that this is a possibility. It is written, for people like me, a sceptics that the reincarnation is such a barrier in in terms of embracing Tibetans teachings
because it just even though I mean I'm, I find it reassuring to be sitting across from a clearly seen individual who is talking about it and lucid ways. Clearly you don't know me, what are you gonna jump to conclusions that, but notwithstanding that, I have seen no evidence for it and have a hard time, I have a hard time of it yeah and so that there are only a little bits of other pieces of evidence as far as objective experience that we can point to, and besides looked at all of those and they all sort of indicating that direction. But no, we can say that we Proven in objective form you no scientifically that there is reincarnation, their begin, to be very few explanations for how a child can exactly what household they used to
be in their last lifetime in the names of their parents, and what their name was and how they died, and so on there are enough accounts of that that I'm not sure how else to explain it me there's some far fetched explanation, but that begins to sound, more farfetched. Then then, simply saying ok! Well, maybe awareness doesn't die when the body dies and, if that's the case, then Maybe it can have it another body, and maybe that's no more. Fetch them what we'd have to dream up to explain what I just mentioned about the child. From somebody like me: the only reasonable stances, Dino, respectful, agnosticism, curiosity and interest anyway, setting that Your relationship with this teacher was clearly transformative
Really you what you Deauville headline yeah. I did, as I say, a few times in the book. Do I have something better to pursue than enlightenment? I know what that would be an empty everything. is even from the beginning. I was just trying to seeing sound foresaw as testing them out for myself being my own scientist. If you will- and I better and better. I was happier and happier I was able to him all challenges in life better and better was finding myself to be a lot more steady, less of it. Chicken Rennie his head cut off more more and more and more on track. and really either right. I have challenges in life, like anybody else- and I was financed,
doing much better and I have to say again just UNICEF to my steady state level of happiness way more than ten percent happier. You gotta say so what does that mean? I'm doing wrong of German, the wrong school Emma doing enough minute live longer for anyone Do you know any time you can have a chance to do the total immersion of retreat even for a weekend is kind of like learning a foreign language such as to them having total immersion once in a while all the time I didn't. I never lived in Tibet, so you don't have to do that if it can be daily practice. with some total immersion here and there, because, if your changing the habits of your mind and trying to get your mind off of the these pathways and on those pathways
then tunnel immersion is an important way to go because then eat you know, as with learning Spanish, let's say if you stop speaking English and you don't allow yourself to speak any anguish and your only surrounded by spanish. You just leap ahead. I've I fully agree, and I shall try to do a tender retreat every year and while I am obviously gonna be stuck with the whole ten percent. Have your thing there s my life, I believe compounds annually. Like any good as any good investment does? So I'm if you keep investing? Yes, I also believe that I've made ten percent happier up completely, so I dont I'm not married to it in any way. I pulled it out of my you know what so back to you, though you you started doing long, retreat and and also learning Tibetan, which allowed you to communicate directly with your teacher. What how are you to take for you to earn the title of Lama
How big a deal was at me seems to me like a very big deal at me. I actually, I debated with him about that. I it for me? Wild horses were going to stop me from pursuing this. I was gonna. Do these long retreats because I was better, and I was loving, studying and practising this stuff and seeing results So that's why I was doing it. He said I when you finish the traditional course of practice for three retreat, I'm going to give you the Lama title and I said: well, I don't need- Mama title I just wanna: do these practices is ignored or no, they will call you, Lama Tommo, after certain point, I can keep arguing with him he's mighty, and that's what you wanted to do some oh, it was my refuge name from that. First time with,
he's at him when he was when I was sitting in on his teachings of the american law. No refuge name means so there was a refuge ceremony where I took refuge in the book, the dogma and the song of the three jewels, as they are called. His teachings and the community of fur of people pursuing those exactly and so rich did that ceremony and in that ceremony he gave me the name song OX homo and it so he was giving me part of his name, sunk and then adding sumo. He actually the whole thing was sung. I guess it's homo, which you don't have to say back to me or sell, anyway, so he took tomorrow and then added Lama to it and that's what he wanted people to call me. So
over the course of years. I couldn't do three in three years, three months in three days, which is the traditional three retreat all at once, because I did have kids, who are mostly grown. and I had responsibilities and so on. I just couldn't take it all. Unspent- I did three months at a time quite often, and two month retreats in one month retreats and so I It altogether- and he taught me all the levels and I did the required amount of practice relevance. Oh, I wouldn't give people's sense of what these practices are. I think most of the people- and I could be wrong what this, but most of the people who meditate these days are doing one of two things either dear doing us Vader meditation t amorous along those lines where they're using a mantra thy word silently repeated in the mind to settle the mind or they're doing mindfulness, which
either derive from Buddhism, more firmly embedded in but basic, marvellous meditate. Were you just my aware of the breath as it comes in and goes out and when you get lost, she started get Tibet and voters, and the practices includes both matters and and this sort of breath, awareness by getting some pretty far out stuff, so they can only ask you what in the in this is. This is a vide. Rihanna is the name of the School of Buddhism. You describe a practice and hope. Would you call the Tibetan nose blow? What is that? yes well as not just for people with bad sinuses like myself it, is a practice that helps you jump start imagination, so many people let's say they do twenty minutes meditation. They get to the last five or ten minutes and that's when it really gets good. They really settled in and there sir,
How can I get to that part from the beginning the answer is the Tibetan knows blow known as Long Roussel into that in which means basically clear The stale wins is the weights generally. Translated so you work with the energy in your body and your breath and visualization and the Tibetans work with visualization a lot and iter now tat. I was really excited to read the case from mental imagery bison castle- and I dont know. If we read that, but at Harvard he conducted a lot of studies. Looking at exactly what the brain does when you're visualizing something is opposed. Seeing the actual thing in front of you and turns out it behaves, the same lights up in the same patterns. So
The Tibetans took full advantage of that, despite not having FM our eye technology and a were able to use visuals mission for to set up just the perfect experiences for ourselves too. create a lot of deep transformation in the brain and the mind. So This is a very simple practice once you see it done it's tough to describe. Ah you know in audio form and writing about it in the book doesn't really help either by your pictures. The book doesn't make it easier to understand its alone easier, but actually we have a video of it on our website, witches, NOM, chalk, dot, org and I m c h a k door. Yes, look and so then you can just you know much easier in Reno. It takes like thirty seconds or so to do it and I have found, but I've immediately gotten into and dropped into a little more meat on about what is it actually
Ok, so you're forcefully expelling on air we're out of one nostril and then the other alternately a few times and then both together why you're doing that, your visualizing, the sort of distracted this in the form of the three categories of negative emotions, neurotic emotions afflicted emotions whatever you want to call them so ignorance Lazy stupor. None of us has that first thing in the morning, but should it happened that that's one and then the whole category of certain clinging desire a day in all of that is another category and then, heard, one is a version or aggression or competitiveness. Sacred IA
usually westerners, don't identify without once. I tend not to use that as much but yeah. You know that too would be in that category worry is also in the fear, is in that category as well. So if you just think about the fact that were either trying to pull stuff to us that we want or push away stuff, we don't want and were occupying ourselves without all the time. Imagine if we could just part the clouds in that effort for a little It will not be nice and invest with his practice helps us to do, and so then we can sit in clear, calm, aware, meditation writer we would need hours and hours and hours to get into all of the practice he you ve done, but let's just pick something else. Just just so. People get a sense of actually which are doing on the cushion give his sense of some other practices that you
did and do well isn't the thing I love about factory on his there's lots of them and so there's the practice for any occasion and a pretty secondary. Some of them for they use visualization and they use archetypes in the form of equitable image, archetypal sound as in mantra, archetypes. We are very deep, powerful transformative. Oh, and so they are, is extremely skilled at using them, and that is something that I was sort of marvelling at. As I was sitting there in one of my three month retreats I was like my god. This is so finely honed and highly developed inefficient. How could it be that they dream this up. I thought well wait a second. for aid and young lived how long ago and the boy and the Tibetan masters lived how long ago it they ve had a lot more time to develop all this.
What does it mean dear visualizing, a deity or or something like that times? Yeah tempt us up, here's one that isn't visualizing the daddy when I like, of Adriano as it makes us where we're at. So, we normally visualize somebody and imagine an eternal conversation with them. We do that all the time every day, so version is attempting to take what were already doing and just turn it toward a much more positive direction, and they are quite aware, movie yeah and make a movie that closer to how it really is and the closer we are too real reality. The happy we're gonna be the farther we are from house. in the farther are movie is from what actually is going on the more we're going to suffer so basically, the Buddha right from the start was trying to help us to get closer to reality. Is it actually is
and you're going to describe one of these practices? Yes, so one that sir still early on- and I teach in the book- is Don Lynn and on Lynn is also uses visualization and a kind of rifts off this same idea of imagining somebody in having an interaction with them in case. What you're doing, though, is expanding your capacity for compassion, so I dont know where you are with your practice, but the teachers, I've worked with including Sharon and Joseph. Now that we really need to pursue wisdom and compassion together and all of the great bodhisattvas, and I could
people like Martin Luther king among them, for example, had both of a great measure of wisdom in a great measure of compassion, and that was what caused them to be a powerful force for the good. I don't want you to derail you too much before you described one, but define body suffer, so it literally means I won who has a mind of awakening. I guess I would say and awaken mind body being awakened so were all kind of dreaming our way through life, and these people are a lot more awake than we are and therefore able to be a lot more effective in helping others and thats what their motivated to do as just kind of what their about So Lyn Lynn is for those of US baby police officers who would like to do some good in the world
and get distracted by our own staff and maybe don't have such a strong capacity for compassion and for us Westerners in particular. We have to start with ourselves because I think were so compassionate I don't think we really like ourselves very much or feel like were worthy of compassion, and so we need to start there. But the basic essence is a practice. Is that you imagine somebody who suffer and you can just read about somebody- on the news who suffering terribly and you just move by, I didn't see you want to do that for them and again use F in visualization so you imagine that suffering person in front of you and You see their suffering face, you dont have to get perfect for the visualization, that's not important! It's what you're feeling that most important and so now use the breath to really
make it real and you breathe in their suffering into your heart, which it is a bit of an act of courage. But if your feet move by compassion. You just want to take away their suffering and replace it with happiness, though you breathe in their suffering, and you in these sort of dance, thick, dark clouds of the suffering and you breathe not their actual facts of their experience, but the suffering itself, to your heart, and then you breathe out these bright white clouds into them. You see their face changed into a smile so that the essence of the practice- but you don't just do that for the ones who are your favorite people, you step it out, until its eventually people, you don't know the person at the check out counter. You know anybody in everybody until
you're. Finally, it's really quite big and it's known as one of the four boundless quality so before measurables and it it's not very boundless if we stick with their favorite people and we're not gonna exercise that muscle of compassion and strengthen it. If we don't step it out to everybody, but don't start with your ex, for example, is right away the exercise of us a little bit more, I d d terrorism, a very similar practice and in its taught in terawatt, nor inside meditation traditions, so share in Salzburg, who's on the show recently as major proponent, of which
Loving kindness, meditation is actually quite similar to what you described in and despite my initial repulsion at the description of it because it seems so happy, I do it every day and I find it very useful. Now I'm not a great at it, but I don't think that's the point. Well, if you do it every day or get better, that is the point. Every day is the point and getting better is the point as seem perfect, I mean I don't know. Yes, if that's possible, which leads me to my question about in enlightenment. You about it before. In fact, you just having the book some in this equipment a book. Some practitioners have even transform their bodies out of the material rum altogether, with Rainbow colored light streaming out of their empty, close as they attain complete enlightenment, and later you mentioned that some of these, people leave behind nothing but hair and nails. Any evidence for this yes, really witnesses, yeah and
New, this without any scepticism. There's no because to me you know that I now always let me awhile yeah did take me away. I don't want to feel like I'm just sort of gullible person. Quite the contrary, my dad was into science. I was raised with science. I like to see evidence o me just say in your defence. Let me just say your defence. I have met you one term before and anybody? If, if, if our listeners and viewers were in the room with you, they would know you were you give off nothing of being a global person in person. So that's why you're interesting to me, because you clearly are sceptical person, and yet you talk about this stuff without really any with it. Without any caveats, without you presented as as factors with I'm very interested in how somebody like you get to the point where you can just talk about this,
If you're talking about you, guys, don't goats and may be well again, and maybe we'll get so my teachers, sane person and he's seen it I bet one Lama in Tibet and son and that Lama, when he died. He sat in took down which I'm sure you ve heard about we're clear white after death, clear light after death is a I, which is not actually the direct translation that but anyway the point, is that he was sitting up and his skin. This is no, he wasn't dead and it went on and on four think it was twenty five days and his body shrank, he didn't do the full rainbow body that I that you read from my book, but a he came down
to the size of about eight inches high. So how would you advise everyone, people side, and I know these people I was into that. I met them, they're saying they can measured. You don't know what I saw a picture, so that's one. My teacher met a woman who that sort of thing happened to an east. I asked my teacher: will how do you explain this, but how does it work visit? These were the questions I kept asking. How? it work and he said they are. They were so enlighten to the point where they just cleared away. All karma and the body is made from karma. So there wasn't anything to sustain the substance jumper the hare nails, apparently will cuz those aren't actually alive anymore, they're, just evidence left behind and the clothes you know. How would you advise him really need to deal with this just just to just to keep a been attitude of
witness, I would say, openness with asking lots of questions which you seem to be doing for him out and dumb investing because that's what I had to do, I had to be read about these all these different accounts, and I had to know some people who actually witnessed it. I happened to see the remains of one master myself, and so all of these things and it, It was months later no smell. I hear it very hard to who explain away with conventional saw his I've heard of you had these very similar discussions with my teacher with the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein, who talked about psychic powers and things like that when we had long arguments about the so arguments were arguments, I use that term debates there. Maybe debates and a lot of me
front of him and him being good natured about it. So I mean you're you're, not the urban, the you're not unique in em up, I'm not picking on you in some unique way, as I guess my point, but I do find it interesting because then it's it appeared in his. His argument is that is that you should you should employ what he calls dont know mind, but as an advisory extra, I mean kids learn a lot because they don't snapped a judgment, they d go with what they already know, they keep their blinders way open and I can we get older? We tend to learn less because we tend to decide what's what and that makes less room for learning. So I try to sort of work against time and
try to keep the blinders open, but I still want to know well how does it work and yet what evidence is there? Because I still like evidence to and that's why I happen to know some of those things I mention, because I was busy investigating Can you use said before that you you said what do I have anything better to do than pursue enlightenment? That was the kind of question you ask yourself at the beginning of your experiences about Rihanna. With the mm, your relationship with your teacher. How do you define and white men and do you think you're getting close let's see so I would define I meant the way I've understood it, which seems just so clean from my teacher. determined to Baroness Sanjay, which means ah clearing away and maturing or bringing forth. So if we all basic They come from this source of everything and that's purer than our essences, pure and so what's up
Simon about were already there in a way, but we can be really covered? over with a lotta distraction and mental habits that makes but we can't even see that much less live from that. So if we can clear, all of that away, one hundred percent so that the cleaning way and we can bring forward our true nature to its fullest extent, which is the second part of that word. That is the definition of enlightenment. For me that works for me, you feel like you're progressing along that I'm progressing. I am nowhere near there and are there markers you know what, look at that really I can say, I've had put it experiences were the clouds part- and I am able to see more clearly the true now To my mind in the true nature of how things are, and then I go back to whatever habitual level of distraction I'm out at the moment
so it's kind of like that, but the more the clouds open in the more I give him a chance to through a dino doing these practices. Whichever you know practice, it is meditation practice, then it's sort of like that have it gets created more and more, and I begin to leave in that experience more and more? All, though, that you that experience is really my subjective reality and experience, but nevertheless it something that I've been able to replicate it again and again, when I first head assertive moments of a penny. Ah, the first one I had was when I was in college and it Shelly lasted for quite some time describing the book is a lesser like a however well yeah, but then I could still tune into at any time, and I did so many times a day for years afterwards.
but I didn't do formal meditation and I didn't have instruction. I didn't know what it was in the first person to really explain what was going on with my teacher. one of those moments when I was like? Oh this is my teacher so when the clouds part. Yet what do you see. Well, I don't know. Maybe I should take my cue from the Buddha when they let you know after he reached the full enlightenment. In his case, his first student in early student said well described it for us he fell silent because it's words are a carry concepts. That's what we are really and any words I used to describe it. Aren't it because it's beyond the conceptualizing, so gonna be at a bit of a lost year. I figure of the Buddha was in law
Teresa your good yeah. I guess I have an excuse, Poland, I describe it. I would say that the things in less solid and rigid, and I feel less solid and rigid and there's a deep feeling of a just sort of abiding state of love and satisfaction. Just joy. I guess I would say that's there when the clearing away happened, there's Joe and there's no high quality of brightness and clarity of those are some where words that I'm throwing at it? You know if I'm doing a word, collage answers can best. I can do to describe it pretty good. You also talk about in the book about the ocean that we tend identify
ourselves as one wave in the ocean, but an that's the source of our unhappiness, but we'd be much happier if we just identified with the ocean, which makes sense and intellectually I just don't know how you do it, how you make that switch cause, I'm still in identifying, is as damn well. So when I identify with the whole ocean- and that is very much a part of these experiences- I have when the clouds part- and I can do that more on a regular basis, because I have the tools to do it now, and I mean a my mind more and so on. It doesnt dis include the waves right the ocean includes all the waves, including the Dan Wave and some wave? It's just way bigger than that, and there is the whole ocean that we're all a part of- and I think that's
Natural way that I come to cause. I don't like to be savvy either that's a natural way. I can come to love and compassion is, for all connected in that way? It's kind of like? If I start my tell my whole body suffers right, so here did amend this funny position, because I am deeply in rigged by descriptions of enlightenment that I hear from people like you and my teachers, and for when I read I'm not sure. However, It even exists amino because I haven't, I haven't, had it for myself and there is no scientific evidence. So what is? I can't be blind faith in some level for me to say that, of course, This is true, and yet I want to spend a lot of my own time trying to experience this. You said you wanted to talk about this low that before the pack has began, you said that the jewish therapist in you wanted to talk to me about this, so
What did you want to talk about? Well, so you're busy, guy and you're spending two hours a day now meditated, yes, and when we talk before you had just started that programme. Yes, oh you came to my office several months ago. I think was figure. Was I started doing today, maybe nine or ten months ago, yeah. Ok, I think it was last may came to your office and I could see that either there is this book in desire longing. I would say for something. So what is it that year they wanting. What's your bottom line height, that's part of the calendar, is I don't know that I can describe it? I don't know that I can articulated it's when I started to work in temperature and happier people would ask me: why are you doing this?
what has overtaken you when I had a lot of trouble articulating it until I was finished reading a book and so now in the process of writing another book about this or deep into the pool and meditation. What's beyond ten percent, and I can't articulated- and yes I and yet I should have arranged my life. A rat and going for it. Ok, but I'm not asking you to articulate enlightenment what I'm asking you to articulate and this may be equally difficult- is why is that the longing that's impelling you see, who, I think, has become a any amount of meditation, shows you How habitual me centred thinking is
and an end being driven by desire and aversion is a recipe for unhappiness, and so you cannot see that. That's that's the answer that I can articulate answer. You just want to be rich. as much as that is possible and setting out. Why certainly have faith that one can send those that those edges down, and I think there is pretty good evidence not only experience but scientific, that debt that that term meditation is salutary effect, physiologically and psychology play. So I'm pretty confident that and not wasting my time and the more I do, the better I'll get at it. So the math there is pretty obvious to me and the desire is there to get rid of it because the more you see it the more like. If you let me get rid of the absolutely
the air when you of my friend Jasper Reserve, Neurosciences talks about the the Skinner Box. Huge is a name. You noted is Gantt ranges, a therapist there are listeners, may not, but they put rats. Since I have a Skinner box and they face Go the wrong part of the box again, electric shock when you notice what it's like a mindless moment as opposed to a mindful moment. It just feels better to be mindful, and so what hey again the math That is why we want a rack up as many Michael moments possible in a finite lifetime, so that that I think is, is what impelling magic, don't know exactly what I'm shooting, for, as I mean it, I'm at can take other people's definitions, but it won't one thing: if I compare, this is a new working to die and air everybody knows gonna die, and I would like to be less scared of that yeah. That's a really good one
two to motivate yourself with, because it's the truth and people like to forget it, but you know dying, isn't something that happens to everybody else. Just hit hard happens to us and are we ready? that is very much aware of that and the whole dying process, unity, delineated it out infinitum tonight, getting back to the city Savvy the idea of happy loving kindness, her Sapien compassion it gets. happy when its ego tinge. It can gets happy because it's about you and how he oh, oh there, there you poor thing. Oh I see I thought was more like a well, that's cautioning. You know where you're showing off, how loving. You are well that that could be also with compassion and could be used serve. Turning to pity, which is known, near enemy of compassion to churn talks, whether at right and so, that's. The problem is its
tainted by ego. So if there is an ego involved in it, then there's just this automatic wanting to take away the suffering and replace it with happiness. So that's why practice and then, for love a loving kindness. It can be either through the sappy kind of sentimental sentimentality. Is a near enemy of loving kindness and again is tainted by ego tinge, rather than just simply this expansive heart. You know just feeling how we're all connected and that's a wonderful feeling. You know in that those four less qualities are ways of feeling connected. So it's one thing to say: de how theirs is big ocean, that's all connected and we're all connected and that's what the mindful meditation can do, but
Don Lehne or Mehta meditation. The loving kindness meditation helps us to feel how can anyone so it's another way, and yet I buy it. I you know when I talk about sadness of it. That was my initial problem button over it. I just like to bring it ILO, because I know that our that many people would listen a podcast hosted by me will probably So? I share my pretty knows have predilections that I always want to introduce. It was some level of scepticism, because unless people won't chirk get past it too, stuff well, that's right, and I just wanted to sort of trace a pathway there from here they're kind of thing. It's Vienna, Kenneth
he rests with the ego. Involvement is not just a simple feeling of connecting us in those two ways, so it is good. I give you a full chanced to explore the issue that you want to explore. Pretty much. Ok, you know. If we talked again, I could probably pursue it more well, then you should come but that invitation come back on the show. Next time you are in New York. Let me ask you this. I would be remiss if I did not ask this week. As is the Dalai Lama, always smiling at the short answer? Read the book with a longer answer. Along. I will recommend everybody reef, it's a very, very interesting, but so slightly longer answer, He is somebody who has really mastered these methods and even before I had really done much, meditating. I was so moved being in a large room full of people where he was present and alone
I people really move to just by his presence. And we were also marvelling this one guy said it. You know what is erasing. What is and he said you know, I think he's just how human being can be without all the stuff in the way. So I leering forward and bring forth it exactly clearing away and bringing fourth he's just done a lot of that using these methods, and it shows so he's kind of a poster child for the methods not about poster child yourself. Ethics really appreciate having you on Lama tone, oh by the way genetic did it take I get used to being called some sensitive, the name you spent decades it if I was a little bit, but not too long, it is funny now, in speaking of letting go of Vigo identification. I have two different names. I truly do identify or respond to and its loosen. My ego identification in awake is I'll answer the phone. I won't know
am I Lama, so one this conversation during winter brisker, I dont know, let's see who it is so that it can. lightning up as its grasp of Vigo. In that way, such fascinated, HU, thank you very much really apprehended we're having a tax is always to the producers of the show borne upon her hand. Sarah Anus, then silver. You can hit me on twitter at Danby, Harris Anytime. You like, if you liked the episode today, anyone here more like it, you can subscribe to the podcast rated. Review. Thank you for that, and I will talk you. there's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona. I was pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people who were soon
every day. This is my Monday last day of the cylinder stretch, photos from one about these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a homespun mom and now in a new programmes from ABC News you gonna hear from damage. Was she went back to my office on cybercrime because he is not here and making sure that our community hostility smiled faintly Lorraine? This is the essential inside the from the emergency room, the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves norms which is always a risk. Your brain is home to re. Kids are my husband or my appearance listened to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, River podcast, him.