« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

#113: Jeff Warren, After the '10% Happier' Road Trip

Meditation teacher and writer Jeff Warren and our host Dan Harris reflect on their January 2017 road trip, in which they traveled from New York City to Los Angeles to talk with people about what keeps them from meditating, and in the process, the two friends discuss how meditation has helped them work through their own personal struggles. Their new book on their journey, written with Carlye Adler, is called "Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics: A 10% Happier How-to Book," which is on sale Dec. 26 and available for pre-order now.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey guys, quick note. All new episodes of ten percent happier are now available on the tunisian APP new episode will be released every Friday on tune in that five days, early just for tuna listener, so download the apt day and check out for free today we have drawn on the line say how to Jeff Jeff, who Rebecca only for maybe see The ten percent have your focus her. I don't know how I've talked about this are alluded to it. With thousands of team was not a super easier for me. I had some personal stuff gone. That was tough and professionals have the host of dogma that I did I'm glad I in it, but it was a bit of a bone headed thing where I agreed
take on this massive extracurricular project in the form of a book. That's coming out on December, twenty sixth called meditation for fidgety sceptics, and we we basically we I'm. We because I wrote it with a few other people, including one of whom Europe here from a minute. Wrote it incredibly tight deadline. Image is absurd and I it was layer on top of my very busy day job where I have to show them I do here at ABC News and this pod Cason start up companies that the ten percent happier aben files have a wife and a child and This book thing just I didn't think through how much work it was gonna. Be he really almost broke me and so in this conversation with Jeff Warren, who is my principal co.
there on the book will get into the whole story, because Jeff and I, along with curly Adler, who came in to sort of help us through the canopy trains running on time. We decided to write this book, which is is kind of it canyon slash follow on to ten percent happier. The idea is interpreted happier out. I told a fund story- that I hope hopefully would get you to meditate. But then, I realized after the book came out. and especially after I started the the app that really got a sense that people have trouble, even if they want to meditate adopting them Abbott in an abiding fashion. So I wanted to write a book that that would help people do the practice, but I'm not a meditation teacher. So I wanted to recruit at a true meditated teacher, so Gacek Warren, whose just Toronto. He runs a amazing, meditation group up. There called the consciousness explorers club and I've. I've been a fan is for a long time is really funny and really cool and
so he's days. The full package is really charming. He's often call my man crush too, can I decided to do this together and with the first thing we did was we took this cross country road trip where we met all sorts of people? Celebrities cops military cadets, all sorts of people and who want to meditate but aren't, and we help them get over the hump. But then we got home the trouble started because we had to had to the book on a really tight deadline and in the process cannon nearly killed each other. So we did I guess together. This is part of this is the second of foreplay. guess they were doing during the month of December Special Pike S all around leading up to the release of the book on December twenty six, but this is kind of the behind the scenes. The buying the music version of meditation for fidgety skeptics, we're gonna, hear like
so crazy and neurotic we were about making it and how it can abroad out some of our deepest idiots crises, flaws and foibles ends at times created some conflict but this conversation really kind of tighter ribbon around for me, because it's nice. When you have an intense and difficult experience with a friend, it ends the friendship, or its immense- the friendship and in this case, as I think, you're about to hear it. The latter is true, and I am very grateful for that. So here is one of my all time. Ferrets Jefferson I ran, so you just got the physical copy of the book at. How did I feel I good. It was amazing Amandas amazed at how fast the turnaround was. I mean it was this epoch adventure? epoch writing adventure. The production happened so fast and now reality. I think that the first book I wrote which was like this, do you know it?
Baghdad of whom felt the boy years with long edits and torture us back and forth was editors, and this was very painless, so I mean but quick and intense. But if a great I mean we did it unbelievable air, that's right, I mean I but I've only written one other book and it was what you described like any years, and all this axed and This one was an enormous amount of acts and pain and sleeplessness, but it was concentrated, but so we did the road trip in January of two thousand seventeen and the book is coming out in December, two thousand: seventy thousand very fast book. I hope as a consequence, it doesn't suck perfect in fact need to adopt a good book, but its very intense turn around. I mean it's basically unheard of
and they to be be to do something that come up that quickly and that's why I was amazed by so IRA much of an agenda for this conversation other than like just giving people a, I guess kind of behind the scenes. Look at how the how it came about and how we did it in pulling back the the curtain a little bit. So I guess look. Let me ask you from your perspective, headed how did you get involved in this and this project? I mean I guess it starts with our relationship, which was, I wrote, that peace in two thousand twelve in the New York Times yeah yeah and then you got hold of me and I didn't know who you were cuz. I don't even freaking tv. You know like hey, you know I work at ABC, I'm interested meditation like this guy and I All kinds of weird emails from random people ask me consciousness. That's like can a part of the part of the lifestyle. This point, as I was I guy seems nice and we had a bit of a back and forth, but then I suggest you just kept up. You know you d
If you'd send me a note once in a while, I guess you saw see something: oh you subscribe to cc newsletter, and then it's easy is your your group, the consciousness explorers club in Toronto that met the UK founded, meditation and other stuff. Europe, which is awesome and- and the news letter is too so well written that as a joke in the book. It's like the only time my life I've ever wanted to move to Canada. That, I think, is a very young. the knows what the hurly burly days of conscious explore club when we are really experimenting with all kinds of stuff and writing these ecstatic emails, and so you would. Maybe note saying I really like that, I like that, and then you started telling me that you had this idea for a buck Had this idea you wanted to do and you weren't always gonna work, and you were very humble and modest about it and meanwhile it came out that being mega best seller, tempers and happier. and then we just kept up, we know about for that at some point we hung out in New York. I think it was came down and we had dinner
we spent with? There is so you came now. We had lunch way before timorous. Have your came out that you came down no time with your then girlfriend now, wife, Sarah had dinner with you in a bunch of people, and then I saw you in carrying. I was up in Toronto and had sweet we had spent. It wasn't just like we're a pen pals, whereas Do you like hang out how I totally- and it was fascinated me for me- it's really interesting to see they like when you get into the stuff. You really get into this duff and to have another in ok. compatriot, a? U can totally nerd out about and talk about the deep and staff. A talk about the accessible staffing and I could just see you getting site where all the things that I was right about so its exciting to have that kind of a relationship and especially when it feels like the thing you're figuring out together is, like you know them.
and a reality or how to be in the world. You know it's such a fundamental thing that your excited about you can be site about sports. Equally, psyched about elephants sea can be site about Will you different subjects, but when you're subject matter is how to exist as a human being? There is definitely something highly motivating about those kind of friendships and relationships, and I think that was a big part of what happened for us to start. Was that really just being sight to kind of talk about this? What are the limits of this? You know and and also particular cuz it's not talked about in search of the intellectual mainstream or the mainstream itself than did the dimensions of change. That can happen to these kinds of practices. We sort of talk witness generalised way this soft arm away, but
but he really is publicly explores the specifics of that it seems I gotta let starting to change, so it also felt like this subject matter that was very fresh. That was mysterious. You know that was end yet hugely relevant and so having a a friend about stuff. I was just for me. I loved it. Yes, so well said, is perfectly articulated at exactly the way I feel and which is why I thought of you when I decided to write, follow up of the follow up her companion piece out and on what I would describe this next book ass, but basically that Anna mating in sight. For me, in terms of this, this new book meditation, four fidgety sceptics was that are on my first book, ten percent happier. I had is naive, assumption that people who read it would serve meditating cause. I thought I made a reasonably good case but that is so does it. That is to completely.
Miss the complexity of of what it takes for people to form a good half. And and the difficulty if you will face when there when they want to change aspects of their behaviour, and I learned that very powerfully. After the book came out, and I started the ten percent happier app where you you Jeff, you ve done some amazing work for us. You done a great course on there with us, an audio meditations and, but in the course of working for the company I mean it became very obvious to me that there are all these obstacles that people face to actually doing the thing. So even if you read a book or or meet a friend and get inspired and think As Mr Meditating, then there you know their time, issues there misconceptions around. Can
clear my mind you know, or do I have to clear my mind or is this going to somehow lose? My edges is self indulgent, and so that's that's why I wanted to write the follow up book to actually help people do the thing and I reached out to you because, like you're one of the most awesome guys, I know so I thought we would work well and- and it did yeah. You know it's interesting. I I realise how much I in a way I didn't understand about what it takes to make meditation practice work before writing this book, like I've always been really focused on the inner game. So what are the mental skills were building in practice like really trying to understand those on the inside, and I have had a great teacher engines and younger really help me with that
and so that's been a real focus of my teaching, and you know it was only through writing this book with you that I realized there's an there's, an external game as well, and actually that external game is every bit as important for a practice, and that has to do with how you create the structure near the container. That's going to do you want to practice how you create their support system Meto with a with a community or friends or teacher, how you create the how you structure the practice itself? How do you how you fit into your schedule, what it takes to create a teen you're. That stuff was all in a way fresh learning for me, like I, and I kind of knew at vaguely about it and based on what was working for me and my friends, but I think a lot of people who don't make it into practice. It's for those external reason, and it made me realize that actually, that is part of the practice. It's not just what you do in a cushion is just getting you there that is half
work, if not even three quarters of the work guy. I think that that was what I learned I didn't know before we started writing in researching this book that that there is so much to learn and to know about about what it takes to get somebody in the cushion or would it gets anybody do anything that makes them healthy. You know well I learned in researching the science around behaviour. change your habit formation is your wheat. We didn't evolve as a species. For long term health planning we evolved for you no immediate gratifying. in the form of food and sexual partners or threat detection the form of like running away from Sabre, do tigers and answered evolution
care about your long term. Health evolution cares. You survive long enough to get your dna into the next generation and sit. So, therefore, we we are not naturally inclined to do things like exercise and eat healthy, get enough sleep. All the stuff that we know from the sides is good for us as it is like that not the the mind and the brain that was bequeathed to us by millennia of evolution, so it was just so fascinating to learn about that and to see how to apply it in in real time, and I want to talk about some the applications we came up with, but just to stay with the kind of them. than the chronology of the story. So I came to you, I believe, at the end of two thousand. Sixteen and I said, hey Jeff I'm running this little book, we're gonna, rent, a raw star, tore bus and grow go across the country and meat. People want to meditate and art and figure out how to help him get over the hump and it's gonna be which, eleven days. You have to be away from your home and probably bad
good, and I have no idea and then we're gonna have to crash of book on very short timeframe. Why did you say yes to that? I mean who wouldn't say. Yes, I see that adverse fathers, the adventure, so just the idea of good across the states. In meeting I mean what I liked about the project was that it was sort of applied mindfulness through the journalist excite of it like actually meeting real people who are trying to apply it, who were stuck in different ways and what they were doing, and I mean that was I mean, that's an incredible opportunity: no you're, not you're taking out of most the garment books, I'd read or most buddhist books or of meditation box. It's like or the suit you gotta do, but it wasn't an occasional quotes from people having different challenges. But this was actually meeting real people with
you in the entire world. You know the world of IE, like military, the world of like politics, the world of celebrity nests and and and looking at their actual jobs and then saying well, how could this help or what or what were they finding with a challenge, as it means that was really the big draw for me was that there was gonna, be this adventure than to actually meet with the real people which really kind of grounded in the world but that was they mean that was it and then also of course, it's. You know. It's just
fun is fun to hang out with you. You know, you're, always making jokes with a good time together and put him in my buddy Eddie on onboard was like a huge motivator to Eddie Eddie Voice of the amazing hd voice. Who is our creative director who oversaw all the video production and there's a ton of it, which you can, which will be posting all over the place until so, you can see on the app at the Yeti Voices, the man he's the man and then there's just the randomness of like life, drops these opportunities and then it's like okay. Well, why not? You know I never would have thought about this in a million years that I would have something like that. In fact, I was, you know my as I'm sure we'll talk, and they have done a lot in this dark, my propensities, to go to the deep band and think about the more complex stuff and often at the you know, at the debt from of understanding the kind of wide andor ways of making it accessible. So I often don't thinking that mode, and so you have forced me
that so I realise there was a huge growth opportunities for me as a as a teacher and as a thinker to be, you know to kind of expand my repertoire too, so that was also part of it, although other what to say your defence. So we will talk about this and it gets talked about a lot in the book how we basically wanted to kill each other, because my propensity for being just kind of mean- and your propensity for fur spinning off into these like s Derek theories that when I finally get us to write a book about basic meditation, but you don't even the moment were out on the on the tour on the bus you know did, and it was hectic and hard, and we have this incredible schedule. Where every day was you know we had get worse meetings, people in shooting I'll put it in a getting back at the bus and driving hundreds and hundreds of miles was really intense, but you you were I've, enjoy to take a meditation teacher
who most of whom Arden nobody ever like criticizes or gives notes to a meditation teacher, hey. I think you did at meditation right like they did it. There are their treated. You know like their made out of porcelain, mostly at to take a meditation teacher thrown on a bus, for you know random people, an awesome people from the neighbours and happier world, but still you didn't know most of them and and throw you into these situations where you know we would one day would be sitting with the singers. I've grove and then actually be hanging. I would cops and Tempi Arizona or social workers and in New Mexico formerly incarcerated youth him. A wee wee, wee wee programme. This thing to be incredibly diverse, you you would be dead blade incredible ability to weighty into whatever environment we concocted and just totally lacking in on what the needs were at that moment and help people. I will get it
I did about meditation in a way that I can think made them more likely to actually adopted as an abiding habit. So I want to say that in your defence before we later on pic, I knew that. I appreciate that very nicely to say, although you know, I think part of it is actually part of, it probably has to do with being pretty eighty d. You know your career when you're eighty dear disable a reset that's gonna, wanna qualities of being eighty deeds like you, you, don't it doesnt your last long and whatever microclimate of mood the iranian his book be reset in the new moment. So, that's just that that part of my pathology, if you want to call it that is actually quite helpful for showing up in a moment and being instigated this kind of adventurous situate,
So I just think it's ironic that you know my my biggest mental challenge is also part of what can help me, how she helped me out some time as as a teacher. So since it will say more about a dvd, because you know you had mentioned to me many times you at eighty d, but it what an especially on the on the road trip you mention came out aloud and but I I I just obviously never really took it seriously a minute, not that I was being disrespectful. I just didn't. I didn't you didn't seem it like you, you had gone to. You know really elite college and had a very successful book and had a really successful meditation Kern. Do I didn't think I don't know people often say these days. I am I'm super DD, so I just never. I didn't take it seriously and it wasn't till we got into the writing process where it became very obvious that actually, this is a huge thing for you and it became very difficult between the two of us, but it's just take us back a little bit,
When did you know that you at eighty and what what kind of problems did it cause yeah? What's a good question and its I'm a kind of just learning to talk about it in a publicly it's something I struggle of my whole life, but part of being eighty Is that sometimes it's hard to see the big picture of what's going on so it started when I was a kid just being like a lot of kids. Having like, I had really more. The ADHD then, like super hyperactive attention all over the place they they ve been thinking about. Renaming eighty executive function disorder, so it means all the kind of
I'm all things that come with a healthy functioning frontal lobe like impulse control, planning, organizational prioritizing those kinds of things there, just not as well developed and that's normal for a kid. So lots of kids have eighty d, but once at a certain point you start to grow out of it and you started well more. Those frontal cognitive capacities, although you can make an argument that, with the technology these days, every one is getting a little bit more. Eighty that those summit inhibitory rat mechanisms. Don't aren't coming online as fully so for me was just being very disregarded all over the map and super hyperactive Ezra hears about it as a kid like a disaster nightmare emulate Lily. Had me in a leash like either This is like a panties and picture of me at the zoo would like a full body harness on IRAN at full speed towards their dinner, chimpanzee tanks or whatever they were, and getting the act batch of ours
I don't need any disputes, but I dont not laughing at him any disrespect for parents who have now no, no, I'm I'm laughing at a disrespect for you, but not for other kids oh you know this is a serious issue and I know you had a serious issue in and some not really doesn't, if ever you, but but I'm living, because, basically I felt like there are many times when I wanted to put a leash on you and so now, knowing that your parents had Alisha, you just those me with all sorts of satisfaction there. My at my friends love that story. They lay never fail to remind me about it, so so he had to give you a bit of history in terms of how a deed develops you know, so for allowing for Our people like young boys, especially by young girls, to another big, beginning risers different types. Eighty, but lot of it. You kind of girl, out, as you get through your teenage meares and new kind of consolidated things, and you can come online more that way, and I actually think that that has started to happen for me, but then I had this huge.
Injury worry at twenty one or twenty or a fellow of a tree. I was high, and I just was with my friends. We're plan like football in the road, and I climbed up three in and anyway, it was a bit of a ridiculous situation. I fell. I broke my neck. I had by dislocated my spine and an fracture the verb reins. He sixty seven and I had a pretty big head injury where my head just got really I've been apart car on the way down. it's pretty big fall, and after that I was you know I was in traction for a month. I was at and halos and was for six to recover, but I really it it. It knocked me back into a super eighty space but I didn't understandably the time I just knew that I wasn't processing stuff in quite the same way, that's actually when my real interest in consciousness and mine started because I I was like well what what's going on here. Why am I more like I thought? I had I thought I was better from this eighty
you stuff like I, but now I was really eighty and- and this is where it's important- to make a distinction for people go here, I'm a little bit. Eighty, I note that's like, or people who under play it, real. Eighty d is really a serious problem, it causes a ton of suffering and people and because the experience is that you can't ever get together, here. You know you start on a track thinking about something in your bouncing off five tracks. Latterly, you can't complete anything so there's a sense of guilt or a sense of light, groaning competence and you don't know what's going on, because the thing said: you're in a car that can't stay on the road and- and you think it's your fault you know, like all, what's wrong: a failure of character, somehow that I can't just see through on these projects. You know I'd go from one project to another or one city to another. One partner do another like romantically, like I couldn't stay with anything so there was no lasting satisfaction like, even though I was a very fun, loving happy
person on one level, and I was I love partying and, of course that would just feed into the eighty thing I wasn't ever able to follow through on things and it was free, frustrating and actually more than fifty. It was like after Why am I even here, because you can't even relationships? Don't feel like there is deep as they could be because you're just now present for them or with all the normal satisfactions of being meaningfully connected to work of of seeing things through the feeling of like beginning something and finishing something, and that that for all through my twenties that really wasn't there and then I it and my thirty's, then is it by MID thirty were suddenly a kind of damaging together, like I got a good job cdc? I manage right this possible. Conscious emerges the Canadian a broadcasting got where your radio journalist
which is- and it was said in a made it easier to jump, unravel idea. The idea of thought was cool, but, and they had, I had wonderful bosses who really cared about me and that they could see that I had, because the benefit lady, of course, what everyone says that you do have a lot of creativity, because you're just skipping tracks all a time so you're you get to access this very wide pool of data and that so it's great for journalism and great fur ideas for a certain kind of creativity and that was in a kind of got me through that and then even running head trip like I in that book is it sort of a called thing people really like it. It's got a ton of cool stuff on it, but it's over out of information, you know it's like a five hundred page book would like tons of but now it's I look at it now and like I'm, like a wonder how my address, even let that out in the world, you know it's very much an eighty thing, so it was something so you can. I just did replicas because he has, I think a lot of people are not interrupting the changes. Hydrogen interrupting the just ample
your point, which is, I think, a lot of people think that eighty de means you can't pay attention to. You have no ability to pay attention anything, but in fact what I learned about you, it will personal one. I learned is that their many flavors of eighty d and the other day I learned, is that your specific flavour is that actually you get like manic about style, you gets you. I think. As describe. Do you get so entranced and entangled by an idea that you have been? this tree house in your mind and you climb up and live in that trio's. That actually is where my favorite quotes had come from. Saul saw Bela, who talks, who is a master of talking about the human mind and how we gonna make it traps for ourselves and but that's exactly what I mean. There's a there's, a hyper focus aspect to a lot of people with eighty de where you're eating skipping track I then, when you log in and something you're interested in its like ear, hyper, focused and parlor reason your hyper focused is because you because you did worried about losing the focus so you have,
hold it hold onto it so tight because you're always losing the focus in your life, and so people triumphal you out but you're like you want to leave, because this is the you're. Finally, you finally got it locked down, you know, so you know it's really now is the huge learning in this book is, I I've always known, have had that capacity by never really thought about it in that in terms of ideas, thinking in writing itself you know, I always I kind of it's just a baker, illuminating processed it to write this book with a partner who would be like in a sort of Derek, Please do, and sometimes not so delicately you're really oftenest tangent here and it's not connect to the immediate needs of the moment- and I would have to like pull myself out of that. and I have to say meditation has been- enormously helpful for that and the thing that I struggled in this respect is the thing that everyone's fellows with, which is that we get our fixations up with
in our entranced, with our ideas, our notions of how things need to be and the way sob put it was at its like. We build these three houses and we go up and live in them, and then we imagined the tree houses the world, but all around is the forest and its humming with possibility and miss three, but we only see our own. It's not only do we build these trials is, but we like pay them with these. We put like mirrors on the inside or just looking at our own ideas reflected back at Us Anna and though the what's fundamentally transformational but an insight practice is. It allows us to pop out of those kinds of situations pop out of that trance and say? Oh, my god, you know I was inside this mood. I was inside. This idea was inside this conviction, but even at this was how things needed to be. But if I M able to just noticed this, as the smaller parties is one part of my experience,
you know as well as I would say, the figure inside the ground. You know just like the the the pit that the tree in front of a background mountains realize that I'm in I'm in the tree and you properly treat now so that you can see the forest, you can see them and you realize that you have options that you can move into a different place when you need to, and that is absolute, That means that when we talk about the book again and again, that is deliberating So what we liberating dimension inside or a mind from this practice, and it can be repeated again and again and it will be yet again again, because it doesn't matter how many times you hear it, you will be once again stuck in your trance you'll, be stuck in your tree house, imagining it. This is how things need to be so you know I have so much gratitude for my teachers who took with great patients would
show me this again and again again and again this eighty kid who is just a disregarded party who just did not have it together but again again, Jeff can you come. a great now what is happening? Can you feel this sensation, the sense of being fix it on this idea, and he noticed the o the thought pattern itself. in the act of noticing in the act of feeling, can you notice that not in any more. How does that feel? Like? Oh, my god, are you really? Why didn't they teach me this school and you I know, you know what I'm talking about yeah. Well, I know what you're talking about several levels, one, because obviously I I like every human being who has ever existed, I get stuck in my own trances and and lose lose sight of of the greater picture, but I also know what you talking about when you say when you talk about your teachers having to
you out of an obsession, our fixation and I'm realizing like the way you talk about your teachers, doing that, like I e the way the writing process got set up. In other words, we got back from the road trip and we had like two minutes to write a book, and you know I think, the pace that we were on was that, because I was doing the first draft, so I was I had to do a chapter a week in order for us to be under, on time, which is insane, was insane in almost killed me, and he said, and but in the process like you you're writing the imitation instructions which, by the way, they are beautiful and brilliant, but in some of the iter early admirations- were also beautiful and brilliant, but in credit
The long and often you know mired in esoteric, and so I had to do what your teachers you just describe, your teachers doing, say: hey Jeff, you know like notice, you. Can you pop out of your obsession and be with whatever is happening right now? It's over. I didn't do it in a nice way like the way you describe your teachers doing in its filled with compassion, but pest, and I was tired- and I would stress that I had a day job in a family that dealing with and trying to write this book on it oh, you know, icon with a gun to my head, and so it s got a little tense theirs and woodworking described that from your point of view yeah, I just think it so far, he that I'm the matter, as was to be the meditation teacher, and I like I'm totally We lost in my thing and you're the one who's pop me out, but yeah from so from my point of view, while mean things started, good and well and
from it. We got into it. We we knew we had a loose structure in terms of what we had. These main. We had these experiences. First, all the road trip, and then we had Is ideas of we knew that different ways in which people got confused in their practice. In so Carly did nominal job of helping us helping you cry. It outlines first and ultimately right each of those chapters at fusing. Both the story happening on the road, so we had earlier is early as the third needed author on the book sits down, Jeff, currently so sorry good. Yet so, and that was so. That was already that dissidents huge amount of work to figure out. Ok way, what are these different challenges that people are having haven't? We fit that into the actual course the narrow that we had in the
peace is, and how can we build a curriculum? That's gonna teach people meditation in a way that makes sense along, though the same from those that same trajectory. So those are three different Trent tangents that we are trying to weave together, freeze or Fred. So you just it'll assize that's area is very suggests to emphasise that we were, we were trying to bill. It was Super Rube Goldberg. We wanted to have a chronological narrative built into the road trip, but we all the wanted them every chapter in the book to address a specific obstacle to meditation so we had a line up way to make sure that the road trip in some way progressed not only through time and space, but all so through these ideas in an orderly way, so that so we, the first one, is about people fearing that they can't clear their mind. The second one is about having enough time. The third one is for Bring that somehow meditation can make. You look weird, but we had to make we desire. We're impose the animal
what was being superimposed on what, but we were imposing superimposing the narrative on top of these sort of order of pedagogical. I yes about like attacking these various obstacles or We doing it the other way around. I can't figure out and then on above all that we wanted to teach you basic Bennett. Asian and many many permutations. So it was really hard to do and you're right that Carly Adler? The third co author of the book, was incredibly helpful in helping us figure that out, oh, my god, yeah she's, brilliant and a saint and very patient with both of us. In all the different neurotic ways that we are, she seemed to be the most like. Just this amazing nurturing force that can I get the whole thing going, but just as also to come back to the story, so so so you're there doing the chapters and year being the narrative and year working anymore, elaborating all the behavioral science stuff, which is so interesting and
my job was going kind of figure out, ok! Well, how can we create a teaching progression so at first I felt like it was hard for me to get into it because, as were waiting for to see what the outline But what is the structure that were building here in terms of those other two strands and then, when I started thinking about, I thought. Okay, I got this great idea that I want to do. I think this should be an index, an exploration of the entirety, of insight practice. The that, from the surface of the mind to the depth is gonna, be progression from like how we first started noticing that we can get stuck in in thoughts. To what those thoughts are made of today to the feeling and the images and then to the fact that larger idea of the patterns and then the deeper idea like this bedding. from sensory experience and then going into the profound should have mind, and I had this whole like and I have said this long like fourteen page document, I think that had like all of this like- and I thought it was the nose like on my yes, this is going to be. It is going to take people not only from interment introductory meditation, they're gonna start to understand the deep end, the pool
I sent this document very proudly thinking that this is really get to solve our problems, and did you look that you are like? Oh, my god, I don't you. what this guy's right in here, Only when we are generally the ruby of the deep add like I was because I was at this point so afraid and frazzled from trying to balance my day job. As a journalist with you know the family that are having a young child and then this massive responsible, I got a little on top that I completely underestimated how bad it was. This process was gonna, be I'd just I walked into this like Elmer, bud, and so I was just hang on LE by a thread and I needed like help and support to make sure I got from chapter to chapter, and I just wanted you to write simple, practical meditations that plugged in that I didn't the worry about, and then you sent me this fourteen page memo that will I used There was so it was
Actually you know it having looked at it after I calm down, it was really great me totally great, but fur like it was a book in and of itself and its for like a hard core, deep and meditation practitioners. So I was like at what am I supposed to do this like I'm? Why I I would just add. I got mad at which we will talk about my anger issue, which really came out now in the process of dealing with you, but you also came out in my process. It came out through the corset lookin jars of my learning, how how angry I get with myself, and I mean I am myself. You really helped me deal with absolute. We should get to that, but but yes, so that the memo just to get back to the store the memo completely. I lost my mind when I read the iron. Now. I I think you know you're. I mean this is the thing about stress its eye gear under a huge amount of stress your Britain, barely sleeping you're, doing to jobs so you're reactive? That's why we do this practice it inside
it's it's funny that everything we were writing about in the book everything we're trying to communicate in the book. We are ourselves fighting with and wrestling with a dealing with in this intense deadline. You got your reactivity, You're told your burned out and you're starting to get become it basically that I've got my total distract ability, and I might often the clouds doing my thing and and also- and and it's not more than you know- I realized you so you go off in that's into Europe. ideas base you're not connecting to what's really going on the ground with other people, and so in a way. I actually wasn't empathizing fully with White we're dealing with. I didn't really realise the egg I mean I could see that you are stressed, but I was that was my own fixate, until now. This is the right way to do. Thing was actually prevented me from seeing what was going on with you, and so when I started to see that was happening. I I tried to sort of dis embed, but it took a few pathetic
several times to weed out a few trial runs, and eventually we got back into a good fellow and then it sailed from their yeah. Did I mean I'm I'm extremely pleased with where it ended up, and in that you know these are I'm just gonna Senor praises bear issues, but so sorry, but like you know, there are many many many great meditation books out there, but very few of them get read very frequently and the the parts of the book, the that are yours, where you'd just teach people how to meditate I've, never seen such funny and fresh writing about how to do the practice that will actually make you laugh as your reading it, but also give you practical advice and also just pick your curiosity and get you excited to to do the thing so where we ended
was a great place, but it was it was. It was tough to get there and then there is that one month. But but overall I mean, I guess you know I. I just love the experience and I What really came down in the end was that I I got to actually finally talk about who I was like in terms of the challenges that I have any the that never would have happened. If it wasn't. you. Are you kept encouraging me once he realized tat? He was going on. You got really interested in it and you start asking me you what what what is that like and when did that started, and he trotted but he kept any slowly start drawing me, oh more, I never talk about this stuff like I in this is, why I've always had a lot of ambivalence about. You know who may be teacher. I got anyone want to be a teacher like I never thought about. It was nothing
me. I was a writer and an erotic writer at TAT, like many writers, and it was nations and constantly encouraging you saying: look you really. You have a gift for talking with a mind or thinking, but the stuff you should be out there and I would be like ball. I don't wanna be out there. I mean whom I am not a model of mental health, I'm so flawed and screwed up like, but he kept encouraging me in, and so I did my thing in Toronto with that encouragement, unjust and p. who come round more cause. I was a writer and we had to just a fun big group of friends and adjust. Was this fun in full a thing, and I guess teacher in essence, what everyone call Gonna developed through that, but there is always feeling in my mind that I was like an impostor like because I didn't have, I didn't seem I wasn't naturally com and placid. I wasn't like Joseph Goldstein. Our share in Salzburg girl is amazing. People who are just like who course deal with their own stuff and are totally honest with that, but are so obviously have are so obviously the beneficiaries of this practice, and I wasn't benefit
the practice, but it was it's like you say, ten percent, twenty percent you it can help and huge ways, but there still is fundamental ways in which your challenged and just having you and urging need to talk about that. It felt like I have so much gratitude and, like I almost war, I was, I feel emotional talking about because I I felt like I don't have the lie anymore. I could you say this is me and I'm not I'm pretty tub, but I still meditate and it is helpful to me in a lot of different ways, and I can talk what how its help one. I can talk about how it's not an this. There needs to be more of this in our culture of people, saying I am I'm I'm having these troubles when it comes to my mind and is not just external conditions that are causing challenges like oh, I am having trouble this job, I'm having trouble this thing over here. We brings conditions to the table and we don't talk about them and endorse its so profound. That did
internal struggles and the more we can just admit to them? Then it's like that is the insight process. We see them. We admit them were no longer as stuck in them as opposed to ruminating on our own or thinking that were uniquely doomed and- and so this was a very healing project for me, and it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had those challenges in the writing in you. Hadn't encouraged me to come, be more out that way and so I have you so aside from the fact that you're, an amazing writer, an awesome I have a lot of gratitude for you for four just trusting me in and allow me to have this kind of this kind of a change in Cuba of Awakening. I guess you could say there is an expression that my yet his grandmother ease or of a jewish grandmother, but as a unit expression that she used to use, which is novice like its when a grandmother or anybody see somebody they love
of and they're just so proud of them that that's the feeling I get when I listen to you talk more when I read your parts of the book, that that, and I don't mean then in any way, like from a paternalistic snap. My were the same age and I look at you with my teachers of anything that that the authority is the other way, but I mean I mean a more for that. As a friend, you know the the. You noted to realising the so are just a step. I for one second say you know, will once well We realise that you and I were with it. We were having a problem, and that is the route of it was the eighty two. It would I ended up doing- was just cooperating that and turning it into a plot line in the book and which and things are you reluctantly I had to get you to talk about it candidly so that I could write about it. So that really injecting this into the book, which you did not go into the book process. Thinking
you were going to be revealing to the world, but what was so beautiful for me to watch was the first to understand that that this was something you were really insecure about that you were basically a met. An amazing meditation teacher who had imposter syndrome who felt like you didn't, deserve to be a teacher and that this was a albatross for you, and I got that had the privilege of being able to watch. You realized that way you thought was. A liability is actually a strength that, because you have these challenges and are willing to speak openly about them, you connect better to people who and by the way that in the end is the whole damn point which is to connect people and teach them how to do this thing in having led happier more productive, lies and, and so too, to watch you kind of a guy who I hadn't ed
No deeply admired for many many years ever since that article in two thousand and twelve in the New York Times feel as confident and awesome as everybody around you. Who knows you knows you to be. That was an amazing thing to watch thanks. Man wouldn't have happened without you, so I feel, like I said. I feel a lot of gratitude I think that you are able to say yeah, and I don't want to make you feel to uncover, because I know unlike unlike me, you don't have narcissistic and it's so as somebody with narcissistic tendencies. I will now steer the conversation back to me well, but with a big dose of you, because I want to talk about a way in which you really help me. A really starts with it, because in and give this is, this is this theme is big, is big. We tell the story
the book, but is worth talking about. Now too, I think if you as we are on the road trip and living in this tin can together driving across the country, often under great stressing the latter fatigue, is the view of the schedule so crazy and you know eating junk on the road. So not that you know the somewhat sub optimal circumstances, although it was also a blast and we should go do that too, but you starting to know something about me that I had been insecure about, but hadn't really let myself see, which is that I am very committed to the practice of meditation. And yes, there are times when I have very satisfying experiences on the cushion, but much of my practice was shot through with this.
Each year, vegetables, goulash, forced March type of atmosphere and I think rooted in part. This is your your initial. Your initial insight was Dan on assure you, like, embedded Asian, that much like you. You have this kind of aggressive attitude about towards your own mind in some ways in the practice feels list, stern and severe with the way you do it, but that group who into a realisation that that kind of all of that came out of the like that, I'm I, struggle with a lot of anger? And I take it back to my grandfather, rubber Johnson, who is really angry guy and not very nice, and and an you help me sort of see that I had this inner robber Johnson. That was.
very mean to myself, and I think that made meditation kind of unpleasant, because every time I get distracted I would use holler at myself and so that that whole process was so supple or seamless. And then there also obviously headed Ex its external manifestation which we saw in full in its full glare, Ray during the aforementioned. You know month of discontent when, when we were struggling over the writing of this book, and Really seeing then teaching me ways to work with. It was hugely valuable, then I would say the one, the two things you taught me and I want you to hold forth on them and or anything else you want to hold forth on one side shut up is the two things were one learning: how to see the tendency towards anger and to give it a name. You know India, Every time the the robber Johnson
rears its head within my mind, I'm like better now at seeing eye at Robert Johnson in their Kennedy fangs the the the monster and then the other thing is tick too. Is you taught me this little thing called welcome to the party which is a little serve mantra. Little thing I can say to myself when I M getting pissed at myself during meditation, forgetting distracted, So I just lardner a there a lot of things in there for you to react to her or not not, but I'll shut up, and let you go yeah well, I mean, I think the first thing to say is you're not as much when it was you think you are. I mean can be added. Can there was more like coming out a sort of snarking comments, but I never really felt like. I think you still do hold it together. A lot of ways and ever really felt the full brunt of that, like, I think you are hard on yourself in that way, but there is definitely a severe quality. There had been a severe quality or practice where just this,
You know really really hard on yourself for certain expectation that this meditations always gotta go This way it's gotta go well and hard on yourself wasn't, and we began to see that this was part of this programme to anger programme. They gave it a name, the robber Johnson, so after your granddad and and so this is something I can definitely talk a lot about and is a revelation letting it was probably my first big revelation in meditating actually and that was when I started to get still I would realise that there were these in a sense, these different programme, Sir thou running for for me and that running that run for all of us, like and what I mean by that is there be a certain pattern of thinking that I would get into often look. It was moved. So I'm disease myself in his aunt I'll use you as well just cuz were the two experimental guinea pigs, but everyone listening can apply it to their own lives.
So, for example, you're in a bad mood, you're feeling kind of angry theirs, often an inner voice, a kind of narrating, your anger itemised your lists of your slights near injuries. whatever it is, there's a few particular field, in the body like attention and a contraction worry or maybe your jaw hurts. Four things are bearing down like and from inside that programme. I would even call inside that move that personality everything you see everything through that filter of being their anger. You, your life, is everything's you're pissed about this, that everyone is coming up to users, your interpret, inciting angry way. That becomes the filter of how you experienced I just use angers one, but is the same when you're, if you're feeling lost her doomed, you're feeling or you're feeling depressed. You know that it suddenly becomes the new world and everything is interpreted through that you're everything you ve done, that was any good now seems like reinterpreted. that light or or mine
something I struggle with is the excite over excitement. I cable mania get so totally about something that a man lost in that peace, or so we get these. These are patterns of acting in relating now their habits. It we ve created. You they're, really to our moods, but the more. We repeat them that the deeper they get and so what sorry to see is that you are really deep in this habit. Disorder ROD Robert Johnson programme. of like holdings of this really high standard, angry. It yourself fur meditatively imagined than tube angry other people, so very friend after all on the outside. But you have this opinion track running around where people are failing in, though the ways at year they they shouldn't, be failing, and I mean like every other human being, you got these programmes, and so we started curious over. What is this thing that comes up for you and when it happens, because it happens, corset and sitting as much during the day can we
begin to notice, what it's made out of an that's, what's the big in insight, mindfulness or when you start to get into really noticing patterns. This is where, and as a genius is Often repairs are made of. Like No they're made of a little bit of images. Tat are made of talk, a pattern of self talk there made of particular, body, sensations and feelings, and and if you can actually begin to notice oak. Yeah. I'm having this bit of talk in my head. I'm having this these my body, then you can pop out of, and one of the ways to do it is to give it a name so, like I have in my practice, I literally nay, I have like a dozen different probe their personalities, we're gonna, call them that I have noticed that I can get into and now in life. When I start to go to that place, thornwoods places I can go. Oh yeah. I recognize this since our grandiose or this is the catastrophic for this- is lost. Jennifer
region or whatever it is, I can kind of see that that programme has taken Oryx. I've learned a notice, the body feelings of it have learned blows the refrains and M literally. This is the magic of the practice. You know you notice it you give it a name, you can pop out of it and it's amazing how quickly that can happen, and I was so that was one of the things we definitely work with and may I let you talk about how well work. I didn't work for you, but I thought you were really resisted for a season like that you're giving it a name. It sounded too cutesy or something. But but It can be really valuable, yet I thought it was you Tell me one night on the bus bid. You know we we would have hours and hours. We would shoot during the day for a couple of hours and then we would have. These long must rise, which actually were magnificent. In my opinion, they were, we would use hours and hours of just chatting with her. I loved it just talking to you and talking to other people in a team, I just loved it. Some really happen
memories and one night you mentioned that you had this inner program called L grandiose, so who was sort of the Athens described as a cheerleader in your coroner. Who would you know, agony I'm telling you how great you word obviously was a result of some insecurity that you had as it as being a kid to wear a leash, essentially Mozilla grandiose came about, and, and yes we share, our grandiose was with that. That emergency is fantastic, hair luxury the werewolves of London and it sit. So you you then recommended that you know you got this Robert Johnson and I'm sure others. You know you should name him and I was like I don't know if you kind of corny, but I have time for grass to specially a thing You know what I was struggling in the aftermath of the road trip in the writing of the book you I did so
to do it, and I now have like five or six people of we programme it was in our programmes that I notice come back really frequently and as cheesy as it may sound the just that simple act of giving it a name. It doesn't mean you, I mean I'm not like totally personifying it and and thin and having some imagery of you know or Johnson in it a little bo, peep outfit or anything like that. It's more just like I noticed the pattern arising all the body, sensations and images and thought flavors and, unlike Robert shouts and in a kind of just like we want it. It's likely did the wizard of OZ. You argue uses like a little guy behind the curtain and- and you can let it pass and and what you did, that for me turned out to be the truly brilliant add on that has as well. That is a combination of naming and and seeing these these programs with another thing that you introduced, that has
early transformed my practice is is to not only to see them but as in the seeing there can be some hostility there. Public, oh you know, there's a way in which you see the owl grandiose error. You see rubber Johnson in your mad that their there, but but there were the else you did which, as you said, add this little mantra of when you see any distraction, particularly distractions, that you really don't wanna be seeing force yourself to say, welcome to the party and that for me, as a guy who had so much inner hostility, self directed hostility. You know at my own mind for not doing what I wanted it to do. Forcing myself to say welcome to the party whenever I get distracted, even if I don't mean it I mean- I was never mean it, but just that that fake it till you make its spirit of using this little mantra has
I again utterly transformed my practice. So is much gratitude, as you may feel toward me. It is, and I I promise you fully fully requited prepared. I mean that is the. I think that is the that is really the deep part of this practice that and that welcoming attitude is one that every teacher will talk about its they're all over the traditions, and the idea is that when we have all these subtle antagonisms about how our trial we, what like things we like this, we don't like that. How we want the world to be, but the world is how it is and it to a proper assessment of your life means accepting what is actually happening in this moment as what is happening and letting it be there.
Only through letting it be there that you can that you can really best addressed what's happening, and then you can move on to the next moment and particularly when you realise, with these programmes internally, these things. These are all strategy you have developed that have to try to help you that your body, minors, developed to try to help you rain is developed and in a way they came from this. This place this carrying place within the organism, and if you can start to see everything as it's just there just patterns that went wrong like any pattern after awhile starts to get grotesque, the mortgage repeated you, I mean in terms of our negative habits you cause. You are what you repeatedly do. is keep repeating these things again and again they can start the so what once worked starts to become now a problem of a sudden you are you yeah when you really needed to be emphatic or you hit when you merely needed to yell,
You kill when you merely needed to head like with the way things get upscale upscale, they waited build up and they get worse and worse and oh. Those programmes that started out as being trying to be adaptive got could lead lead us in this place. This no longer working for us, but so the way to work, that is to say, ok is to accept them is too is to embrace them in this moment has been part of what's happening. It's only through opening to men embracing and that the energy those patterns can start to drain out, and that is the man the of the practice that this is the Good NEWS, you know we are not uniquely doomed. You know doesn't matter how deep. You are in these tracks, as you start to notice them an open to them, and septum. It's only in the accepting that they're going to that they start to lose a romantic. Then you can start to reverse some of these habits and create better habits and good habits build in the same way. So that is so. That is, I mean this is very deep or talking about the possibilities.
Human transformation. It all hinges on this piece re here on this equanimity: peace, this welcoming peace, disk and even more so if you can bring about a caring dimension to it, it just accelerates the changes that can happen in it. So and ever teacher talks about this. You know they have their own ways of talking about Sharon. Talks about this all the time Joseph talks to his all the time. You know it's, This is meditation when a wine, but when you live it, then it becomes real. For you start to see. Ok, that's what it actually.
means to be welcoming and all these subtle ways, ways in which were not that way. No you're right and I had I had studied meditation for many many years before we many many years in less than a decade, but for me it felt like a long time before we did this book and I heard teachers say a million times. You know how you have to have a welcoming attitude attitude distractions and have what they call self compassion and two as they say in teacher Lee Circles, you know: hold you emotions with no loving kindness and all this while blah blah at a my. My first idle, like that kind of talk, is just a mean. I I don't think wrong, just that, for me, is a sceptic in a guy. I guess like AIDS, that kind of talk, just I find just reflexively rejected, which is stupid, but it didn't were down to my benefit clear.
And also I think it was his cocky assumption that you know I was going to win at meditation. Do you know that that that that the the need to forgive yourself and begin again as it, which is the practice of really only applied to other people cause. I was gonna ass, this thing and which is again just towering we stupid answer. Yes, I had heard teachers say this to me everything you just said about equanimity and and even the caring peace, the sort of learn to care about yourself, but I just but it was too Sapien. There was that there were so I will you were the right guy at the right time and we had enough proximity. You know like of the huge privilege of most meditated, don't get to spend eleven or twelve days living on a bus with one of their favourite all time. Favor, invitations injured, or were you you're, the right guy, with a ripe and with the right amount, proximity. It tastes and standing to say,
Dan I've really noticed this thing and end and to make the points to me that worryin arguable, so it really landed yeah. No thank you. It was says, it said it was such a fun trip. But I'm near the point I want to make here that I think is really important to stay and and and it really trying to look at the big picture you know meditation is at training and how to be actually. Your life is a training and how to be cause. It's where the draining happens. You're constantly being so, however, you are in life. Whatever attitude you have, your own life is a habit that is getting reinforced. So when you are sitting the attitude you have to your practice, is the thing your training? So that's why it so important to have this fundamental a welcoming attitude if he were fundamentally judge mental attitude, whatever it is, that is, is also gonna, get more deeply train.
so you really need to look when you're sitting at how your approaching the whole practice in the first place like that vessel by we talk so much in the book about this specific training of skills like what are that what skills are being trained and so there is the concentration. We know that there is the clarity we know that, but there is this equanimity. Peace Brown being genuinely open to the experience. Then there is the enjoyment peace, which is another thing that we talked a lot about, which is deciding to be open to the possibility that this is is. This is something you can enjoy, that you don't have to go into it with your like braced or what your backup, but that, but that, like hey, even just sitting here, doing nothing that is actually meditation by the way, their many practices that are all about that or many traditions just sitting. in doing nothing and enjoying your being, as I would say, enjoying the fact that you exist the feeling of just breathing here just that alone is a deeply healing practice. It is a training
and learning to accept yourself in this moment as you are- and there is no more fundamental training than that, so that is it's a really important to kind of keep that in mind when we're practicing like as almost the baseline can I- and, of course we had to be easy with ourselves and Moroccan. I always be that base finding other just sit here and say: ok, yeah, I'm here Ok, we're with being here we're gonna, have We were worried about we're, gonna be off lost, different stuff, we're gonna, have and there's a place for training, specific skills to be more focused in these things too. But if you surround your focus strain training with this severe unhappy gotta get through this feeling. Well, you're, just reinforcing that and then you're going countered. The two to the grain of meditation actually wants to take you Yan removed. One of the last things you said there is is truly what allowed me to do this because
you're not saying all of a sudden on demand. You've got to be totally psyched about everything and everyone. What you're saying is you decide that you're going to incline your mind in that direction and train yourself to try to get better at that and there's a huge fake it or make it component to that which is so for me, when I see Robert Johnson arising, where I see any of my other annoying the inner neurotic programmes coming up in meditation, the practice of saying- welcome to the party, even when I don't mean it over time actually can can transform your attitude, and I've noticed that when I see rubber Johnson now many of these other things that I share, sometimes I actually bring out into a smile and an its unaffected
a renewed starts as an affected forced practice, but it turns into something else and that's why it's a training solely a really it's. It's made a big difference for me I this is it s been the novel conversation. But I do want to end without asking you: what is there? Is there something I should have asked and any other points that you want to make that the term that we should make before? We would call it a day. Now I mean that that was a good conversation. I mean there's a running joke through the book about mysticism above me also wanted to get all miss. And I think that I'm feeling a little verve satisfactorily in August. I seek really just got mystical, thereby bringing in the your being this thing, but there there is another dimension to this practice. You know what I like to point to an think, is really important to to have as a motivation for people which is that there is
something very beautiful and mysterious about this act of coming into the present moment of welcoming. What's there and it starts, our focuses more on trying to work through that challenges that are preventing it from being there so seeing these these patterns that sometimes can hurt us that are destructive or that aren't really helping us. The people around us and that's a big part of practice, but there's the flip side to that, which is this reorientate mission that doors to happen. When you begin to feel what's below those patterns, when you begin to feel-
all that there is this openness. There is a kind of presence in your life that is really exquisite, and it's not just feeling blessed out. It's the mystery and depth of this life. They you start to feel and the meaning fullness of it, and you start to connect to it and it is their percolating up and it is waiting to be discovered in a sense at every moment and this. As you start to taste, this vat is when your practice really becomes. The motivation changes its a privilege to now sit and experience your life in this way, and a new can and it's a privilege to be able to B with others in that way and when you see before like that, and we know them. Naturally, we know we have friends, we have colleagues who are just naturally more
space you want to be around them or there's something that they're tapping into that's very fundamental, and I just think it's important to you. No talk about that. To that that is, we don't just do this practice to wrestle with our tuff stuff. We also do it to come into the world and is very beautiful way and be more there for other people, and I just want to make sure anyone who is listening is knows that bad, it is real and you actually already know it, because you going
all the time every from moment to moment, they were we slip in those places where were more available to our life and we in it and when were more open to what's going on, and it is deeply fulfilling and people will know what I'm talking about. Yeah I mean I I I I decide think we will find this satisfying and eighty which you're talking about, I think of a kind of it just like the brute yet beautiful raw fact of our existence that we can in meditation you can you do that the rudiments of the practice noticing the breath and then, when you get distracted
again, but then you can. I also have a drop all that just like the alive and then you'll get distracted, but but there's something in that first few nanoseconds of just kind of noticing the fact that you're here is incredibly powerful and in your right during the trip you you had a way of lapsing into this kind of Mr Bush mystical talk and in fact, in the set in the third chapter. The book were, actually, I can't do it Bethany Watson, whose one of the stars of the Elvis Doran morning show as whose Jesus you get big radio star in and we're interviewing her about the fact that she's having trouble setting up meditation practices you're. She sang something in your like, oh yeah, it's like just the kind of enjoying your being this and your. She looks at you, and end like just complete, like you are you're. Joking like what is what I don't understand, what you're saying but
enjoying your being this, at which I think now will make sense to people based on everything else. We just all the paragraphs you and I have just uttered leading up to this- is actually there there. There is something to that end and the thing I wanted to say that I thought you would find satisfying is that I find the phrase spontaneously arising in my own mind in meditation eyelids when all the time, so hat. That makes me feel satisfied, but you know, as a mystic, you do struggle to try to articulate this. That's the whole point why they gave a category called this, isn't because you can't find language to describe it but that thing of enjoying your being. Is it's not just like it just gets deeper and deeper and more mysterious and more fundamental, and that is what Buddhist insight practice points to its. What the deep end of any contemplative practice points to its telling us that there is a continuum here,
that is we can use. We can't words can't describe it, but people know when they're in it and it and the practice helps points there. And if we are now I'm talking about that. Then we're not really talking about meditation, like you, ve got to honour that aspect of it. That does this practice, which has been here for all of human history, has been a practice to help thus in touch with that truth and my friend, your life is better the more your inside that truth, the more you know at the more you can share with others. There's just no. If answered doubts about it is the thing I know most in my life, and I am someone with a a lot of mental health challenges, and yet that still true, so you know just don't give up as wide say to be a beginner editors and because there is a lot there well said. Well, thank you for doing this. Thank you for sticking out through a ridiculously arduous writing process. Thank you for being my friend you're. The best
thank you. Thank you. Brow you're the best men spin, such a wicked adventure, I'm sight to see where will go next, what we know more year, long deadlines for sure I Jeff thanks man preceded it. ok, so that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. Please take a minute to leave us a rating and a review, and if you want to suggest topic- your guest for the show just hit me up on Twitter at Danby Harris Special. Dolores Efron. go hand in the rescue team here ABC who helped make this thing possible and remember, were now on tuna, and you can hear our new episodes there five days early on Fridays, the end of this year. Thank you for listening, attacked you next week there's, not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona. I was pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people who are sitting up
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