« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

#126: Hansa Bergwall, Reminding Us That We Die So That We Live

2018-03-14
The WeCroak app, which sends reminders that you're going to die -- five times a day, is not meant to be morbid, founder Hansa Bergwall said, but to make us stop and appreciate the moment we're living in. "Remembering that you're going to die is really important," said Bergwall, a publicist, writer and meditation teacher in Brooklyn, who was 11 years old when his mother died. "Sometimes that's all it takes to take a deep breath, change the program and do something different, feel something different."
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier vodka than her favourable. Why would anyone make an app specifically? he designed to remind you that you're gonna die, and why would I heartily recommend it will answer both of those questions come up, but first your questions. Before I your questions, which, again I don't know in advance. They just played to me by my evil producer Joshua, yeah right now, who calls them for me a phone number of voicemail line that we set up it you can, you can call him leave questions and I'll give you that number and a second Josh pleasant me and then I just respond. stuff. You should just know of an issue, this caveats the time, I'm not a meditation teacher. Nor am I a mental health professional, I'm just a journalist and meditated and do my best answer these. So here we go question one Yes, mandarins, Joe and I'd like to know when you
driving down the road and you still personnel people and no one item in the Chinese, irritate you and you bet meditating for a while it actually gonna change or middle, or are you just gonna go, how much of a jerk you still being and then kind of stopping it. I'm that's awesome. An awesome question are all I can tell you is how its work for me which is that, as I don't drive much because I live in New York City answer from the back seat of taxis, but I am in play situations, where I notice that I'm getting pissed- and I would say that of that- I evolve. My inner demons, Anger is, is a big I just. I just noticed that I spent a lot of aunt Joanna. I think my bad old days. I would act out the anger I wouldn't be. Oh, I mean I knew I was angry, but I wasn't. I wasn't really serve. Not
judge mentally aware of the anger. I wasn't mindful of the anger so that aid did just kind of on me. It was like a puppeteer. and I was super the pleasant a lot lot, not all the time, but No enough, And while I definitely nine years of meditating. I definitely continue to be capable of being over taken by my anger. I notice that I notice a few things one. Some percentage of the time, maybe ten, maybe more, depending on the day, I I see the anger or more really. I feel the anger, usually in your body. There is a reason why we call them feelings can actually you do feel them feels bad. Usually, I feel, the anger, and I know that I am getting angry and I am less likely to just yet
scream more safely, They snide that I'm going regret for awhile. Other thing that I've noticed is that when I do get overtaken by the anger and I'm not mindful at the beginning. I can catch it more quickly. and I M quicker: do apologize early, stepping jerk and I would say you know I have him many times times this before, but SAM Heresies, a friend of mine and previous guest of this pact. Yes, talks about the half life of anger, the natural have life of any feeling them emotion that she had a short, but we too you re up our anger through neurotic obsessive, compulsive thinking? And so what would normally be One minute or two minute experiences of anger can get can last in our can last a lifetime, because we're just re upping it voluntarily.
On some level and what would have been able to do a lot less of that. I think them bye, bye, bye, far for sure not perfect, but a lot better. I leave you with one last thing, which is that you maybe noticing you. I don't know where you are in your practice. Viewed beginning middle wherever, but there is an expression of group that I talk about this in my most book something that happens when you start to be more self aware through meditation. Is that thing things hurt more, but you suffer less. so I was your actually more mindful of your anger when you're driving down the road, but you may be suffering less in that you less you're less likely to act out on your less likely to feed it you're less likely to make other people suffer as a consequence. So it's an interesting thing that happens, that that somehow being self aware, which can cause in the short term a little bit more pain because you're actually in touch with Paypal
It is to be angry. Yeah, oh over I'm your suffering less because you're not acting it out, you're, not feeding it and your and therefore a lot less miserable in the long term, so that just a bunch of random thoughts. But as great question, question number to bear. My name is Jimmy, I'm long term rear unless you're about first time collar I've been married. For a while and using your most recently, but I found when my own, his dad or when it just unavailable I feel like I'm addicted, using that facilitate met creating for wondering if you have any advice to help meditate away from the fire Since I know everyone things you want to do is disconnect alarm in this kind of the peace Sawyer, any any tips or breaking away from a meditating on your own would be great thanks. So much appreciated,
Thank you, I'm add living this. I'm making this up so don't take. This is gospel, but I was first wanting to know. I some people think that that guided meditations really training wheels. I don't. I don't think so I think I do a lot of meditating on my own, but I also use guided meditations, usually on my own app, but actually almost now always on my own app. I gotta, be a smart businessmen here, but I switch back and forth, and so I think you're kind of the opposite situation where you're you're real your go to my go to has just said, but a timer on and go on. My own. Your go too is to use guided meditations. I do not think that is really problematic unknown to me that this is only an addiction you haven't diction to your phone, which would be a separate issue which, by the way, I probably should so no judgment here. So
if refunds unavailable for some reason or not charge give a shot just give it a try. Try doing it on your own set it set a timer or yet The timer, I know we'll get we're going to get some you I have your phone. If you have an animal, clock around or if you just decide, I'm gonna sit and tried aim. You know when I look at a a clock with it doesn't have a timer on it. Adams gonna do my best and when to close, my eyes and see if I can make it the five minutes, and occasionally I may have to open my eyes to check where I am an just. Do the basic meditation steps, the basic meditation such a super? Simple, not easy, but super simple, close your eyes or maybe even a moment, just a little bit sit with your back reasonably straight. That's it step. Second, step kind of bring your full attention, not that kind of definitely bring your full attention to feel wrath coming in and going out pick a spot backwards, most promising. You knows your chest. Your belly and use third step is just when you get to strike to start again and again.
Again and every time you do that, that's the bicep girl for your brain. So you can remember those guys. Try it it may suck the first. I may suck the tenth time, but I think I should just over time consisted play giving that a shot. You will, you will get up, on water skis and you'll be able to turn to do it on your own, and, I think a win yourself we'll put yourself in a situation where you a balanced practice were summit, you're doing it on your own in some of that you're using guided, but I just want to be clear if you use guided every time. I don't see that as a problem. I don't see it as an addiction phone addiction which again play, Cher is a big topic. We talked about it before on this podcast. We will talk about it, many many times, because it's the problem of our age, or at least one of the problems of our age. If you want to call and get me,
two, maybe in some cases rather lamely answer your questions. Here's the number six, four, six, eight, eight, three, eight three to six six, four, six, eight three, eight three to six! Ok, go! Let's get to our guests this week. His name is HANS Burg well and he runs in half of which is called. We croak and, yes, it is about reminding all of us that we are going to die, which sounds first blush like something: that's well morbid, yes, but that's by design but morbid in a bad way, but you know actually it turns out and you'll. Hear me talk about this and you'll hear him talk about an even more eloquent the mind. Actually
likes being aligned with what is true, and so are we spend most of our lives running away from this basic non, negotiable fact, and that actually feels worse. And sinking into it, and so this act, which I use regularly. We croak it pops up on your screen your phone, I an u swipe it and then you go to the app and they had just a little quote, and then you get back to your day HANS. It is going to describe in more detail, but I did actually think it's kind of a great way to co opt this did distraction device your phone and turn it into something. There reminds you of something that you our mortality, that that, when you are aware of actually can bring a lot more, can make your everyday life. much more vivid, inconsequential and add important perspective anyway. That's my table here. They give it more. In this interview and you'll hear HANS actually speak about,
at length in way better than I can just a little bit of background on him he's a rider. He jeez yoga he's a daily meditate, her it's got small communications agency. He started this app kind of on a lark and it is really take and there's as we get deeper into historical here, this some pretty powerful personal reasons that that he's engaged in this work to areas before Burwell before yet to the apple just asking about you, how did you end up in the meditation world actually grew up and my parents were the two hours a day meditated where I was born, They had a grew from seek region, India, so all through when I was growing up, they were meditating during the amorous veil. I, which has a fancy, word further couple hours before dawn, so it was very much a part of
how I grew up. So is this hindu meditation Ireton, yes from other, seek region of India, which is a different tradition, but seek let me add another, was it seek meditation? Oh yeah. I've got some real amazing practice in that part of the world. Actually, here I've been myself, but I've heard that an armored sire there on alarms, echo off like three or four in the morning to make everybody up to meditate interesting. So you grow parents doing this. I would imagine you and found the whole idea repellent because there are your parents doing it or did you get into it because of them, while the whenever, like? the kind of meditation they are doing is something that they thought was for adults. So they taught me when I was a kid just the basics of some mindfulness meditation so I kind of knew what to do when you have to call myself down before a pop quiz in school and that's about as far as it went when I was growing up, it was just it was in the house. It wasn't a big part of my life for most of my early childhood LISA.
Are a pencil Rambo know my mother, passed away when I was eleven quite suddenly Evan Aneurysm in your debt, hastily around Easter and achieved still doing them. rotation PS? He took her hiatus for maybe a decade after my mother's death, but he's back to it now interesting to when did you start to do it of your own volition and a full some way. I would say that The death of my mother definite turn me into more of a secret just because there was a lot of grief and my life. So now I can't it's funny now, but The first thing I wanted to do is go look for her and saw all these esoteric practices and meditations and funny books at you might read, and the like new age, section of the bookstore suddenly became very appealing at it. As I was a teenager, so small, my first experiences and meditation rouses us.
One trying to find some kind of solace and to checking out of some of these things. People say in our art are true, and can you like reach beyond and that was sort of how I got started on my am I wrote what damage versus do have in that context? Oh wow! Well, I ve got into for a bunch of years a kind of semantic style of meditation were use either drums or a rattle, and it's like a guided meditation boat. You have much more visualization is as part of the practice, so I've had some pretty vivid and beautiful experiences talking to different. Take your pick, parts of my imagination, parts of the Spirit, world versions of you know my mother and they were cathartic, if not totally. What's for it, I'm looking for. If ever I still don't know what that is,
evidence base kind of way, but there were beautiful experience so area. I don't even know I mean I've ever heard of germanic. Now I mean I understand what the words mean, but I dont actually know what the thing is. So how would you even do that? and meditation with a drum. Would you be in a room full of other people doing it or do you have your own drum and you be listening to a recording of somebody telling you how to do it and basically the freak see a drum or rattle at a certain frequency just helps push the brain and to a very, very light trans state, where you can have a meditation that has a lot of visual like phenomena. occur and interesting. So you're doing this in your team, I was doing that it maintains Would you friends like that? I did not talk to a lot of them about it. It was says something I found because my parents were definitely hippies, so some people who enter
families more left field. Things were around and I went out and I found that the word you grow up. Conquered Massachusetts, Olga groping Newton, not far away. Ok, here wish to play you guys in high school sport. I think you guess beat us on the regular. So where did things go from there in terms of your meditation courier site? I did that for a long time- and I even thought that a little bit through my twenties, just a very simple, guided meditation with usually rattling and then a couple, years ago I got very and to condemn any yoga meditation and eventually did a teacher training, and now I teach a little bit so that is a different tradition of yoke, and meditation that comes out of also the seek region of India. So I meditated now
more traditional practice, but an hour two hours every morning. What is Billina yoga internationally. Again, it's a phrase ever before, but I, Don't know what it is. So it's a practice of yoga includes a lot of different mantra, mood dry, which his hand positions, repetitive movements, and ass, a matter which is you hold yourself in a position There are many, many other many different kinds of meditations and yoga sets that you do in this tradition, but it's a great place to go if, as I was, really frustrated frozen go by mindfulness meditation sitting there noticing my breath and noticing I was distracted alive. So this path you have things like meditating. An hour of holding your hands above your head. That sounds horrible, like mediaeval horrible. Now it's
fun you train up to it and yet the conversation changes from. Oh I'm distracted again on distracted again to I'm in here I would point out that it is just not on people, doing why's that better. I don't think it's better! It's just that. If you have a lot I've, never energy, which I do something that gets me moving, really helps me. Focus fair enough, actually buy that for sure the whole putting your hands above your head for an hour, I'm not yet on board with that. I can get it in theory at least yeah, and you don't have to do that to get have a great experience as there's a lot of meditations with your hands over your head. That are only three minutes and they're. Actually great to do before I mind from us meditation because they can sort of get out some of that nervous energy, and then you can set and relax a little bit more into just noticing, the breath to do do also traditional mindfulness meditation, where you're just failure
have come and gone out and then, when you get started, start again, yeah of course, you're pretty eclectic in your meditation style. Yeah am then I think if it works in I've, always looking for something that works. Looking back at all these years of meditating, would you say to benefits have been for you will one day help me get through some really hard times and grief events? So that's not nothing huge, yeah soap. I think they're great thing to turn to any time tat the going gets tough, others a certain amount of happiness and just letting go of the small stuff that come.
Then, when you can drop down into yourself and noticed you're there, so that's, that's the other one had noticed what notice that you're there and your body with your breath and that that something that can recur throughout the day, if you, if you meditate a lot and that it makes you feel better. I heard a great description of the way most of us operate. Witches were like Macy's day parade floats that you know like a giant snoopy. That's our head, our completely disconnected from the body that we're just floating through the world, with no what we forget were there in many ways, it's all head. That came, mind. As you said what you were saying about, noticing you're there and I have a lot of a natural tendency toward Macy's day balloon. Had I think, is what you said, so I think there's a lot of just happiness and well being in the body when you can get in touch with head. Yes, even if its holding her hands but
suffering. Even that way, it's amazing how so you teach meditation condoms, weeny, yoga, meditation or off all the aforementioned flavors. Lately, I see that can do any yoga meditation, so the app yes, we yeah, we broke, so how did this come about baby, I'm a user and I really enjoyed it it reminds users they're going to dive five times per day. Randomize times can happen any time just like that, and the message is always the same: dont forget, you're, gonna die swiped, see the quote, and then we have a database run. Two hundred and fifty quotes right now from a buddhist meditation teachers stoics
ass the firs poets, palliative care professionals, anyone that I've come across in my readings and searching for greatcoats that provides, I think, a bit of wisdom, or at least in it angle to consider mortality. I am fully in favour. This, I think, is a great idea. I think contemplating death, in whatever form it comes, is incredibly healthy. However, let me just play devils Advocate now having it. that I'm sure a lot of people cannot do and say why the hell oh what I want to be reminded that I'm gonna die five times day, let alone one time a day. So remembering that you're gonna die is really important and amazing how often you have to come back to that practice to keep a close there's, a huge natural tendency of the mind to want to hide and run away from that and so indifferent.
wisdom traditions, actually in the east and the west, and for thousands of years people have recommended that we do this. The Buddhists had all kinds of meditations that they were doing graveyards over in our bodies that were decomposing, her really extreme stuff, and then I found the boot unease maxim that to be happy person, you have to contemplate the five times a day and then the west, for example, the stoics had a practice of momentum, Murray and remembering, and they were gonna die as a way of finding happiness. So this is something people dance for a really long time and different traditions and reported great results about was how I got interested in. It is because I am looking for happiness. Usually China get even more than ten percent and this came recommended in it. You know it seemed extreme enough like why would really smart people I respect
sit and graveyards overriding body meditating on that. If it wasn't something you know, I should do at least a little bit of so I decided to weaving. It enter my practice a little bit and became a big proponent. I really found it made a difference to people's still. Do where they sit in the journal. You know no graveyards is I actually the graveyard charnel grounds with the bow. These are laid out for the vultures right and right and they would sit and watch the body. Decay is awaited, I'm not an expert and how much of these practices content
by how many people and where I saw that they ve been written about a good deal not far from the only record of this contemplating at death coming up, there's all kinds of meditations on death. You can find from us tradition the benefits. Paradoxically, thinking about mortality, your mortality specifically can make you more alive yeah. It helps you drop into your body and your breath like we were talking about and cherish present moment and the things that you have today without thinking about mortality. Our tendency is to oh right for the next shiny thing over the horizon, which never satisfies for long, and we always keep pointing that final reward over the horizon toward the next day. and without remembering that we may not have a next day.
That's where we are in the future were running were seeking and when we can stop and say no today might be it. Then we can notice the birds are singing the breezes beautiful, there's a loved one or family member. We can call whatever it is. We need to do to make that day better. It is absolutely right, it so counter intuitive and we don't want to do it, but it really does work. It also puts things in perspective. It puts things in perspective, protects us- and I think, one of the first Buddhist maxims- and you can correct me here if I get in getting this right, but that is that we offer because we don't see the world correctly. We see it in a way that is through the funhouse mirrors. Distorted
and I think one thing at the root of how we don't see the world correctly- is our own death. We tend to pretend it isn't coming or isn't gonna happen at any time, and that can really distort our idea about what this world this and what our human life is not right, and when I meant it puts things in perspective. You said the exact right thing, but I'm just thinking about how, in my own life- and I spent so much time, mooring about how I'm doing in my career, for example, and having a you know, then then I'll go a notification for you telling me I'm gonna die, which of course is thunderously obvious, but still you forgot net and euros. This whole thing is going by so fast. It's all there were very soon and
the thing I'm worried about right now, really that consequential, that's actually a huge service and that's actually the most common response we get from the We crook apis people say it pulls them back, no matter how much they in it. They know at some point during the day they ve forgotten and whether their scrolling, Facebook or getting caught up in a work professional thing that doesn't matter in the big picture are caught up in a personal or family drama. The message will come in and surprise them and all of a sudden that bigger perspective is there and sometimes that's all. It takes to take a deep breath and change the programme. Do something different feel something different b and a closer perspective to the
so. How many people have downloaded the EP a little over seventeen thousand loud of today? It's a lucky, I mean I am sure you will reach even more people, but the fact that there are seventy thousand people out there who ought to be reminded five times a data they're going to die, find that kind of reassuring yeah. It's it's pretty wild. When we made this app, we thought it would be us and our friends that this was our way of taking control back over our phones and really gone and travel around the world is meant downloaded and over ninety countries, and we ve sent nearly a million and a half reminders at this point. That says, users on the app are going to die. What kind of negative reactions have you gotten either from people who just don't like the concept of the apple or from people who are actually using the app? I suspect not much on the light,
Right because there's a ninety nine cent spaghetti. I think we're really getting the people who kind of get it and want it, but I think it's so natural that there is a version. Two thinking about death. As I said, we have to do it a lot exactly because of that aversion to not taking it squarely and thinking about it so there is a lot of responses have like. Why would I want to do that? I think about death too much as it is, or that sounds more better or something like that, and I have to say, is when you try, you realize, gives you a lotta happiness and swords. Worth doing. It really puts things in perspective. You enjoy the moment more, and so when people say things like that, they don't seem to be really considering death and its honest way about their desert. Their chests, probably Having some other kind of thought comment, because pretty overwhelmingly, if you have a real practice of remember
not your life is precious and short of an unknown amount of time. You take a little bit more pleasure. and the little thanks. It's probably almost certainly more painful, to run and hide from this reality Then it is tough turn round and face it squarely, and I heard this interesting thing. I was on a silent, meditation retreat in December one of the teachers She had this phrase. She said turning the mind likes thinking about death is something the mind likes to be aligned with what is true its counter intuitive. But again, if you try it for yourself, it turns out to be true, that somehow there's something comforting mean up,
the right word. But satisfying about embracing the truth of our situation, I think the mind wants to make good choices and to feel like it's making good choices and training. Good, that's for you and if it has a more accurate map, can make better choices, And that day and you'll feel that much more of our conversation read after this quick break, Are you hiring joined the for three million businesses that use indeed dot com for hiring you can post job and minutes an manager candidates from an easy to use. Dashboard postern, job on the world's number one job side. Indeed, dot, com you feeling limitless. I don't think I've ever told the story publicly on the air anywhere, but I'll. Tell him out. Welcomes you no limits. I'm Rebecca Jarvis. I use a kind of each week we're taking an honor look at success and how to get there with the boldest most influential women in the world Jessica, Alva oriented
bring TIM Visa Re Barbara Corporate Robin Roberts, welcome to no limits listed on Apple pie, Cast Spotify or your favorite Todd cast. This is no limits. You said something before, but when you made this one is to take control of your phone, how yeah so at this point. I think at least for me. You know I don't think I can really say that my phone is separate from me, got it so many different times during the day from a job. For my social for so many things that the APS arsonists thinking tools on. There are basically part of my mind because I look at them so much, and I see them so much and they give me some money, notifications and like other people. So many of them were serving me. They were trying to eat up more and more of my life through little addictive patterns met to hook me into
constant scrolling or updating her comparing, and I wasn't immune to these sort of little thought hooks that were coming in on my phone I had to have one: could they live in New York? City has very useful and professionally. It was required, but I really felt like it was hurting my mental well being at the same time, and so I got really angry and maybe a little bit and raged, and my way of nourishing myself was to find someone to help me pick this. that would come in at random times during the day and sort of remind me to cut it out whatever it is, I got had been caught up until it's so funny how? Even for those of us who, like me and you- to be reminded of this, that we, You need to be reminded so frequently me. I volunteered a hospice once a week and I do a death contemplation at least try to do a death come
patient, two or three minutes exercise that my teacher Joseph Goldstein teaches Would you say what it is he teaches a series of three three minute exercises that he calls jokingly. This turbo charged route to enlightenment. Two of them, have nothing to do with contemplating your morning but one of them does. One of them is to think about how many generations have come on the planet before us and how they have all you know come and gone and answer to systematically go through the people. You know and think about how they have finite lives and finish with yourself and I try to do these three three minute exercises every night before I go to bed, so I do that death contemplation. but you know on the regular I'd, have your app. I go to a hospice for a couple hours a week, and yet I forget it all the time I complete they lose touch her that all the time it is so easy to lose touch with this now
and so do. I still surprises me most times I get the notification even several months and to this project and having made the app and knowing it It will catch me and I got only half this totally changes. That moment What are some of the stories you're here from users about he said a little about this, but I'd love to hear more about what it's doing for them. So, to be honest, I cried out a couple of times at the story. Is that have come in from users. Am I didn't intend for this, but there is some people at their using it for some really serious work come a woman reached reached out who is using it to get over the death of her son
another woman reached out to tell me that TAT, her mother was sad dying of dementia and that this is Papa's been really hub for her not just being caught up in that story of the suffering, but also appreciate that the time they do have in the moment. So there are some people getting attracted to it. Who are turning to Are they really need something strong that that helps them throughout the day and that Moscow getting a lot of people who just need some to help them turn off their instagram or Facebook, or have a little bit more phone control, and a little bit more helpfulness he reached out and say you know Levin this at this is great so it's been. You know the gamma. It's been amazing to hear it being used as design just a sort of her a simple tool that can get you through the day. A little bit couple per cent
appear our you know also being used for people who are really gone threat, so it must be some really gratifying for you to have created this thing kind of on a lark little bit out of rage a little bit out of creativity, a little bit out of thirst for wisdom, but two think, as you said, that it was just, would be for you and your friends to restore a little bit of what I like to call tech Hannity to them have it take off. Have seventeen thousand People downloading, I assume more after this podcast end and to be getting notes from people talking about putting it to uses We know, intensify our full circumstances. It spent humbling and beautiful all over again when hospice workers and palliative care people. You know right to say kudos if you feel like a million bucks, because those people are heroes. Yes, there
and is also another thing. That's come out of it as people have written me from around the world who are practising stoics with the momentum or practice or practising boot. do a lot of these death contemplations, like the one you described, people from christian community and muslim community talking about analogous death, contemplation practices. So I didn't know it I made the but at thinking about death as I informed us, and while this tool is very much a living tour, that people love and are using all around world. What is the memento? Morey practice? Yes comes out of stoic philosophy that term and its basically an idea that you keep an object to her like a scowl on your desk or something like that
object to remind you that you're going to die. So it's kind of the same idea of having something clothes on you like a nap except it's just an object that represents death. Cuz space, also knew that the mind wouldn't do it on its own. He needed something that would you would carry and life to to get yeah like a stone in your pocket, has now at that vs you're like a next Jen momentum, Morey yeah, liquor next June movement and why they actually, when Roman Jenny, was of a certain time, there's a story that when they came into the city with their victory parade, they would have slave behind them, reminding them there they are mortal over and over and over again during the pageantry. This was something that brought up and that when the times of London covered the at which I thought was an amazing story, so think the irish marriage with your mom
Eleven is part of its driving this here. Of course, it was very early and violent kind of ripping of the veil toward this truth. That death is going to happen to every one of us, and it can happen, any time and no one in my family was ready, even after all their meditation, even if what I think this is why the death contemplation is an important part of the meditative life is my parents. where early pioneers in the health food movement, so I think they thought that, with all this meditation and exercise and healthy eating and brown rise and Kehl tofu, that
they could expect more reasonably that they would get to enjoy longer lives than must have their neighbours and that's a form of afraid, tempting from of negotiating with the truth of death. It can happen for anyone at any time. And a very beguiling one, and so when death head it hit really really There is no real sense of this could happen to us. We were, we thought we were special, and that was not true man statue for anyone, its. If I'll honest, though that's the way, I think about myself, you know, even after a hop work. I've done that. I think, and I take pretty good care of myself. I'm a good genes in my family. So even after go and I use your ass have some part of me,
Suspects death is for other people, yeah, that's it that's really natural inclination and the problem with it. Isn't it you can do these things I mean night healthy. I think it's a great thing to do. It's that death is gonna, come, and we don't know when and if we're not at least a little bit prepared, we can suffer. A lot from that experience. Do you find death less scary now that you ve turned toward it as opposed turning away from it? Who had such a good question? I find it to be true whether or not at that moment. I find it really scary or I find more acceptance with it, and it helps me live my life today. Then that's that's pretty much. I have a better day today. If I'm keeping it close, then if I dont, I very much want to be alive,
and I had a part of that is remembering that my mind will run off in places that aren't good for it. If I don't remember that my time is precious, The writer Stephen Bachelor once told me he's written many great. Including Buddhism without beliefs is not afraid of death being dead, because he won't be there to experience, fear but he's afraid of the dying. process is that's the other thing. The Buddhists talk about its, not just that you will die, but that you are subject to aging illness and death. Aging l nurse death now we are of a nature to get sick wherever are of a nature, to age, to decay, to die and accepting that and our sense of our own identity, of what we are as people and human beings that were not surprised when the gray hairs come in or if we get sick or are you know, as we break down that are
identities are flexible and close enough to the truth about the weather that, I would just alter it slowly, that you probably mean I'm surprised and grey hairs in its price, every time I look in America's, I think of myself as a picture myself as young and I He can myself his young and I look in the mirror. and have like who is there all person staring back at me, so it surprising on one level, but I think might but the training Europe gives that these exercises of averting discuss gives you is that you don't it's not like a vampire confronted with garlic, you don't just automatically curl up and the ball and try to distract yourself for react with rage that you're? Actually you can leave into it with some more curiosity and what that lead, You too, is what you keep saying, which is a more folsom embrace of your actual life as your living right now, and I think when we accept these parts, these tender parts of ourselves,
we're gonna age that we can get said that we can get diverse is. This is also the doorway. Loving, kindness and compassion that we start to notice that are the other living beings around us share this with us, and we can open a little bit more of our hearts to them. If we remember the fur melody of life. I agree with that. A hundred percent of your wee one of the sources of suffering described by the Buddha and obvious to anybody who bothers to look? Is this knowing of separation, that we are somehow this self contained unit separate from the universe, which is ridiculous. what's good, were part of the universe and are atoms are switching out reading food from the universe in than expelling it we're just inextricably part of this thing, but we don't feel That way on some got level and thinking about your own mortality and the fact that this is the condition of any living being actually does give you a connection that feels good
can sound a little kumbaya, when said aloud and only ingested, intellectually, but when you to start to do these practices, which kind of pound this way them into your neurons. It feels different. It feels good in hospice as scary as I find dying to be still the people five men. I met many of them now who are dying there don't seem that scared. Many in many cases, just something that nature does but I remember sitting with one older guy, really smart guy, who said that is his death approached. He increasingly felt himself to be part of a large our system, down other, get any religious belief that it was operating on how to get any meditation practice either. I think he was just like what he Come to realise that he was part of this larger natural order inextricably a part of it and that death didn't feel unnatural.
Or Orson how wrong it's just part of the way things go by all accounts that with the right practice or hospice care, or really prepare yourself ahead of time. People cannot really beautiful deaths where they come to a sublime acceptance of what's coming and their part in it, and I want that for myself as part of aware I do this This and I read about it, and especially the palliative care community, of sort of what a huge amount of variation invent. What sounded very painful deaths, and very serene ones, and I think that with the right approach it doesn't have to be a scary or a difficult or a painful, expiring, necessarily so. What's next, for you owe me a you, have a varied career. You were discussing this before we really you do some of your work, for
companies. You teach kindly mediocre you have this ep, or even build more apps. You gonna, build out this act. Would you thinkin? You know I've got an how many emails from people saying please don't make changes to this app I'll pay more I'll. Do that I'll? Do that? Just don't add like advertising or this here that so I think I'm not going to build this now this one is going to stay really really simple, but you're going to have more clothes to have more clothes. Definitely as far as the future, I've got a couple ideas, maybe I'll start a week, rock podcast, Conversations about death of people been thinking about a really good idea and and other than that this is only been traveling where our fellow over a month, so I'm giving myself time to plot the next thing is relevant that short period of time. It's been in the world since July and August. That's how long I've had it on my-
fun- and there were, I think, eighty six people who had it a breakthrough in December when suddenly started to catch up out there and now it is suddenly said to catch up there There was a page print feature on it, and yet magazine, I, our mutual friend J Michaelson, sent that to me at a million people sent it to me, because they knew I'd be interested and that's how you ended up on this podcast? How did they find it while I reached out to them by yet they had written about phones and the distraction, sort of economy, and I had built the sap basically as a home, grown solution to that D D. I why I can guess, and so I just I shared it with her and she tried it out along with a bunch of other mindfulness apps, and I
do too much more promotion of it until it came out, and you know it ended up becoming instead of what I thought it might be worth. Like a footnote, I didn't say that to the a two page feature all about this one experience of her practicing desktop constipation for the first time in her life and how powerful was Well, you ve done a great job building this ep doing this interview and I appreciate again you coming in to talk about it. The things I should have asked you about that. I fail to ask about. You can download he croaked by typing in one word, w e c r o k on either the ILO S Appstore or the Android Appstore Google. You look for the little strawberry frog climbing down and get started. Give it a try. What's the deal, the frog to poison dark frogs, so it serve, you put it on a little dark and shouted at someone do I could actually
It doesn't kill them. So a sort of using nature's own signalling our image of death to remind us that it would be better form. Then, of course, there is the fun pun of we. Crook rights, one or two frog. I shall put that either. I thought I had ever yeah. Well, I'm a dummy. I get it now. and what, if people, if they want to reach out to you in any way you on social media, how can be urged website it anyway? People can yeah I have at we cook up twitter account which I'm using and following for people to express anything that they feel about it also I read the emails that if you go to the weak crook that com website and fell at the farm, I will get that in my inbox and try to get back to a timely way and there. This is still a home grown projects too
thus having a lot of fun, promoting something that were really passionate about. So few have an experience I just want to reach out. Please do we love hearing from you awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you! Ok, that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe rate us also. If you wanna suggests topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in hit me up on twitter at Danby. Harris importantly, I want to thank the people who produce this podcast Lauren effort. Just go ahead and the rest of the folks here and be see who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other projects. You can check them out at every single time, casts dot com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday. There's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona virus pandemic, but it every community there are pockets of people
we're suiting up every day. This is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of quotas from one of our time, these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a homespun mom and now in a new plants from ABC News. You gonna hear from damage I actually went back to my office on cybercrime because it's not fair. He inherited sorry that our community has itself faintly moraine. This is the essential inside the from the emergency room, the police cruiser to the Czech outline you hear what this pandemic sounds like the people. Putting, selves norms, which is always a risk that I could breathe, is home to my kids or my husband or my parents listened to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, refitted, podcast, em,.