Dan Harris leads a conversation with Thupten Jinpa, the Dalai Lama's longtime English-language translator and a monk for over 25 years, about the uses for compassion meditation in today's culture in front of a live audience at the Asia Society in New York City. Their conversation was recorded on Feb. 15, 2018, one day after 17 people were killed when a gunman opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Great episode this week. It's alive one we recorded this live. We rarely do that. It's all about the issue of compassion sounds like a really savvy idea, some that southern out of an after school special, but it's actually a life skill par excellence. It is the science suggests that compassion can make you happier healthier and more successful, so dont dismiss it. I often did to my detriment, and it was taped the day after the shooting. This episode was taped the day after the shooting at the school in Parliament Florida. So some added poignancy there. you'll get right in just a minute. The guest is thirteen June per day about him and tell you more about the episode coming up, but Del start, we voiced mouse is number one I and my name is charlotte- and I happily just celebrated my seventy fifth birthday- I've been
trading power in large part because of your book and like you stay for the last few years, I found it very very helpful, but here's my question. I know there are some research about their implementation for kids and benefits for children, but about for older adults. Is there any specific research more information about that, And the benefits as people get older, how can help people who might be very sudden your waste, far higher than eleven answers thanks? Thereby thank you for that. I really appreciate that, great question, I wish I had encyclopaedic knowledge of all of the research on older folks and meditation. I do know that it has been shown to be helpful with age related, cognitive, Dick. in their some thinking which at this point is still speculative. As far as I know,
That there may be, it may be useful in staving off them Even Alzheimer's I wish I knew more about that angle because it's really interesting to contemplate, but as far as I know at this point, there is nothing dispositive, nothing set in stone, but dear The indications are that it's good for aging brain and it's good for any Braille. While all of our brains are aging. So, I think, is never too late to start and I think what would we can say with some real conflict Is that what the science is showing us is that the brain is plastic, in other words at the brain is: can change the that their received dogma offered decade In the neuroscience community was that the brain stop changing and a night Age, I think it'll mid twenties, but actual we know is that the big
and a train of all all all all along. and all the way up through the ages. So if you start your sixty, seventies, eighties, whatever I believe- and I think the science suggests that it can have a salutary effect. and this idea, another site you have being set in your ways. I think that the I talk about this all the time budget. Air? Putting that the reason I'm so excited about meditation. The reason why I am out here do what I do is aside it aside from the fact that it raises a few extra dodge. My kids college fund is is that this assumption. We have that we are the way we are and that we can never really change either. Science contradicts that notion that there, all of things. We want the most patients com, gratitude, generosity, compassion, self awareness,
These are skills and unlike physical exercise, where you are subject to the laws of physics, when it comes to the brain in the mind. Obviously, when it comes to the boy, and then my there are some of the brain. Does decay over time but really the laws of physics don't apply in the same way, and so if, as I often say, if you can get ten percent happier, what's the ceiling So long way of saying sorry short on specific, the long way of saying I really, I truly do believe meditation is is good for for thee aging brain in mind. And and that it is not too late to change second voicemail, I then this is me. see from Genoa, Nevada. I don't like to sit up when I meditate, I love the feudal position and it works really well. For me, I wondering I get the feeling that,
something wrong with that that one must sit up and put food on the or in their hands in the lab, and I see no purpose. That makes me very nervous. I hope you can answer this thanks by. I hope I cant do. Let me should the caveat that I should have issued at the beginning, which is that I'm not a meditation teacher, I'm not a neuroscientist either. So an indoor, my mental health experts, so it's possible that I will make mistakes in these, servers and they are just one guys opinion and I haven't heard the phone calls in advance some I'm doing my best in the moment that's a. That is a really great question, I feel like I do have an answer. First of all, nobody says you have to be sitting up. In fact dating back to the Buddha himself. There were four classical postures for meditation.
on, is the one that we see all the time in the in the traditional art depicting meditation that is sitting up either care or with your legs crossed, which I cant do hands in the lap, etc, etc. The other is standing stock. Still, people can stand and meditate. I do this a lot when I M really really tired and I dont want to fall asleep I do in a really really tired and don't fall. Asleep is walking meditation, formal, walking, meditation, which is in taking a stroll. It is not, as my meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein has said, reassess its a sort of a kind of a strange practice where you can walk back and forth in a and up
a small space very very slowly- and you pay careful attention to the physical sensations of of the movement and then when you get distracted, you start again, so there are three postures sitting standing walking into. The fourth is lying down. generally of as I've seen it dipping. Did lying meditation is not in the fetal position. It is more serve on your back, but I see no problem with lying on your side and, frankly, as I'm, sleep every night, I line on my side in the feed, opposition and meditate, often I have talked about this and the Pike S before often I do this well do one of two kinds meditation. One is this kind of this thing I made up. Although I later read that it is the actual there's some legitimacy to this practice which had just
running through in my head? Everything I'm grateful for sounds ridiculously savvy, but as it is, if I find in credit doubtful, because we are really good at taking things were granted at often I fall asleep in the middle of that. Just gotta put you into a place that much more waxed. The everything I do is a practice called loving kindness, meditation even sap year than gratitude, and I can't believe him that I version does this, but at but again their science to suggest is really good for you, love Unkindest, meditation, which we talked about. The pike esquemeling ties with, bears repeating it This practice, where you systematically sir envision people like a benefactor yourself, somebody you're, a really good friend, a neutral person. Somebody you're having a with and then all beings- and you repeat, these phrases silently
in your head, like may be happy, may be healthy, etc, etc. Your kind of systematically sending good vibes the people, this practice again called loving, in this we need to come up with a better phrase. With such a friend of mine, Jeff Warren has called it. Damn friendliness practice It's just a way to train the mind to have a more congenial attitude towards Europe, fellow living beings and again, science suggested. Can make you a healthier and that it can make even change behaviour. So I do this. the feel position, and I find that it's a great way to fall asleep its grey waited to continue your practice up until the last week in moments of every day. So I give you permission to practise meditation in the final position. there may be meditation teachers who no way more than me because again, I'm not a teacher who would disagree with me, but I suspect now I mean the mind, is the mind, no matter what position you're in
and if your training it in the right direction again toward things like compassion or folk, or self awareness, slash marvellous retraining in the right direction. I am not a big believer that the busy It is hugely important. There are schools. Of course the Zen school comes to mind where there really is a big emphasis on the posture, but there are disagreements in the meditation world and so on, taken a stand and end up in a different in a different position, which is the feed opposition on pro viewed opposition All right, I didn't even know. I felt that way until I gave that rap, but I do feel that way. I did talk to her about loving kindness, meditation and compassion, and that brings us right to our guests this week, he's actually a rare repeat guests. His name is Dr Phil Tint Jinpa. He is
I guess is publicly best known as the primary english translator for his holiness the Dalai Lama. So when you speak, when you the Dalai Lama, giving speeches the guy who's with is dumped in jumper, whose Tibet, himself grew up in India is parents were tibetan refugees. is. He has quite amazing story which, if you want to hear his backstory, I recommend you go back and listened to his feet. appearance on the show. This is a very different appearance, though I was invited. By the Asia Society, which is a great organization, a hearing patent on the Upper EAST side of Manhattan, Asia, society, dot org. If you want to go check it out, they ve all sorts of great events at my friend Tom to Gorski over there I didn't mean to do an event, after my last book came out. And I asked obtained if you would come down from Canada, he lives in Canada to do it with me
and we did the whole event about the issue of compassion. I've famously been come somewhat sceptical about compassion both because I feel like I've of sometimes word enemy, make you soft also I dont like overt sentimentality, so We go into all of that and, as I mentioned earlier, it was taped a day after the shooting in parkland, so it it had some added added poignancy because of that. So my thanks the age of society and my thanks to the GNP, and here we go. for maybe see ten percent happier vodka down here. Good. You feel all you take for coming out tonight, let me admit I said this is a massive bacon switch because the sign says-
purple of mindfulness meditation. But I'm actually gonna talk about a different kind of meditation. We probably will get to my phone, but we have with us one of the world's premier, sports in and compassion and who's been teaching in in a secular format in keeping conjuncture, Never universities will have a lot of questions for you about this, and you know just by way of background. Mindfulness is what gets talked about all the time. These days. Mindfulness meditation- and I think that's a great thing, but it is the focus My phone is to overlook that traditionally, marvellous meditation with was taught in conjunction with something called compassion. Meditation sometimes referred to with one most sera terms, and you can imagine, as loving kindness meditation, which I sometimes described as Valentine's day with a knife to your throat.
it essentially involves envisioning people and animals systematically and sending them good vibes. The experts will describe it and more technical term. But this is I, as a vowed, anti anti sentimentalists. I really acts are reflexively, rejected, compassion or loving kindness meditation when I first started to get into meditation because it sounded so saccharine, but there is a significant amount of science. I suggest said it's really good for you and some sciences suggests and we'll get into this because as a location virtual, but sometimes it seems to us
I said it might change behaviour. Although that's controversial, moreover, once I started to do it, I found than my own personal experience that it does make a difference, so I think that, while the focus on my fulness has been incredibly healthy in our society to such a positive development, I think this. This peace has been overlooked, and I am, I think, I sense in opening here anyway. All that being said
Let you do some talk. You we sit here the day after yet another school shooting this one in Florida. Do you think compassion, meditation, compassion, training and you're in the business of this? You have again as I as a reference before this, this secularize protocol for teaching compassion with that you came up with alongside Stanford University taught all over the world. As I understand it, do the teaching compassion meditation could help prevent events like this, or is it just like the weather that you knows once in a while somebody, who's just mentally ill gets hold of a lethal weapon, and this kind of thing is gonna happen. Thank you. First of all, I would like to
Access to express my joy for being able to have another conversation with you, the pot cost that I did in your studio. I really enjoyed it and life, El the conversation was very meaningful and- and I would like to ten issues society for putting this event the nice is even say. Thank you anyway. Yes, the tragedy of Florida school shooting is right now, on the top of everybody's mind is as it s as apparent is just too painful even read about it. So it's it's! It's really difficult eminent, for example, things like teaching compassion, teaching meditation on mindfulness visa
long term strategies, so it's very difficult to make they needed connection and say here- is a solution to this and nothing like that would happen. That would be naive, but one thing that perhaps taken compassion more serious, you can do- is to allow the people with an important sectors like school system, to pay more attention to the individuals, differences and pay more attention to those who are struggling. So clearly, the person who did the shooting had a difficult now, of course, is not excuse what the horrible thing very dear. but the warning signs were there. So is if the compassion is larger. Part of the societies of value in the sun,
that is made explicit. Then one thing about making a value explicit is that it sets a bar and people who are part of that community known that expected to behave in a particular way. So those are ways in which something like taking compassion seriously can help, but it would be naive to say teaching, compassion and teaching meditation would have prevented it because part of that has to do with the reality of the complicated american relationship guns. in all human beings are very complex creatures they will always be people with difficulties, and we, all each one of us carry. The sea
frustration for anger for hatred for jealousy you're, not in I've been a month for over twenty five years? to this day. I know my own limitations. I know I can get angry. I know get jealous. I know I can get frustrated. I know I can get resentful so rich. just that these tendencies are very deeply rooted, but the differences, those one would hope, those wealth a bit more attention to the way their mind works are not going to act, them out are not good to allow the mind, go crazy, because the mind as a tendency to the spin by itself and with the mindfulness you. Ideally one can catch it early so that you don't go too far into this crazy energy of the mind itself. those kind of things. That's why I'm I really believe that teaching like social Emotional learned, not just meditation
solar social emotional, learn. Didn't you to be more aware. their own emotions, recognising that their frustrated, recognising that there are disregarded being able to teach them even a simple technique of taking a breath, step and breathing that meets a huge difference, those kind of things will make a difference because these kind of things will allow children to have an ability to exercise that restraint. So I think that the much more complex, ocean, and you know when something like that happens- there's nothing. You can do other than to feel sad and express your machine, the pain of the victims and also You know I mean I'm not an american site, it's difficult for me to make comments on american culture, but on the other Andy and I live. I make you need my live net next door neighbor. I can't help but make comparisons. A mundane
The culture is very much at the same language. How come things like this happen here and not that that has to do with some reality of a distinct american culture. In all summer, like this nineteen year, old men can get an assault weapon and by legally So those things are very complex questions and my hope is that you know, especially if you're, writing a book. You know you right really well any right for the person on the street and you talk, you are able to speak their language and get really pull them from they are hard and challenge them. I think compassion is a discourse that needs to be had now. because until recently a large part of the is causing compassion has been relegated to the religion, and
I know that religions ability to influence public discourse is less and less strong, but I want it now. Everybody can see why I wanted to talk to fetch jumper, because you speak so well. Let me get you to think about. I know you're from Canada and has referred to his America's hat. but looking as I'm sure you have Taylor, which I remember one sorry to interrupt Nope ones. I was there to friends, plays in America and she's an academic and she on earth, Fritz there was a map is what one it was one of those maps which had the landmarks in three dimensions, kind of slightly protruding and it was about it- was an american Mab, but the upper
part was also in the eyes, and there was Canada always when there is a great onion headline from back in the day. Long time ago in the headline was perky. Coreham quote, Canada has own government common laws in a way that is the that is to the still be distorted view of among Americans of Cannon is, in my view, undisputed greatness, not to say it's one is greater than the other, but channels to is a great country. Lest I get myself in trouble, you look at America's political scene, I'm sure plumage everything you look at refracted
the lens of compassion, giving your training and and giving your work what role would either compassion training as you teach it or, as you said before, just a simple notion of taking compassion seriously. What role could either of these play? Given the howling sea of toxicity? That is our current political scene. But the fact that the paradox of compassion is that it is one value that is claimed by people on both sides, the political spectrum, so that, at least in principle, there is no promise in the idea of compassion as of providing a basis on which people from different political backgrounds.
I told you can come together. Of course, one of the things in America and an enormous generally in the west, and particularly in America, is the perceived conflict between societal values, on the one hand- and the centre of the individual freedom, and this is a very kind of Anglo american kind of struggle. And here, therefore, if we look at the cultural values that are discussed often in the media special in the public discourse on the public discourse, to be about similar ideas. The values are almost exclusively defined from an individual perspective on Santa too of the individual rights, send it to the private property, you're, not choice,
If you look at each of the values that we in liberal democratic society. Value they actually define from individuals perspective. There is hardly any that is defined from communal social system. And perspective, and this is something that I would really like to see, and I hope you will take that challenge in your book. How can we develop a discourse where we are able to develop a robust discourse on vanderdyke compassion? Without somehow being seen as wishy washy or rigging religion through the back door, or something like that, but somehow because if you our unease that, if you ask individually most of us would save. I value compassion, and most of us would probably believed that I'm kind of a kind person. so which suggests that actually, at the individual level, all was valley,
but somehow we have to learn to develop, but public discourse weaken really talk about compassion in serious. So I think in the political discourse, the more we are able to bring it the chances are. There would be more common ground to get I feel, like the word almost has been ground down into meaninglessness through over use party but partly also, it has a baggage that is tied to religion. True, and I feel I guess, the religion, religious people moving over using it. Yes, but on an answer The problem is up until now, or until recently, as everybody even Noah, compassion means I mean, I know you do but you know I think, most people most people, I would argue, will now. For example, most people build nor compassion has something to do with someone who is suffering compassion has to do with someone who is in new Combash has to do with reaching out
compassion has to do with feeling, for I think most people kind of now. It is. They may not be able to articulate in a way that is clear and you know sort of defined, but I think they got level its bid. Like you know, we may not be able to find what happiness is, but most of us kind of no. What happened. This is because we re Norman begetting. may not be able to take the lead in defining we kind of November. Had can I Japan, I should think people dont know what happiness is. Either people confuse happiness with excitement. They think when you get what you want your happy, but of course that is absolutely ephemeral. Stroll, though that is the opposite of what I would view is happiness is an abiding peace of mind or sense of satisfaction, absolute Jenny, fulsome meaning a nation shop, but I'm an even these individuals who tend to define have been as primary
in the sensory terms or sense, sensual get gratification terms when they get their deep sense of its experience. They will know what he s so the cedars there, except that the confusion about what makes people happy. in turn makes people do a lot of students. Yes, yes, I'm! It is one thing about in all human beings: we we don't really learn from other people's experience. We have to make the mistakes harvests house it's so What would you say? You talked about it from a macro level, compassion from a macro level, but what about for those of us who live in this country and may find ourselves on one side? How can we take compassion seriously in a way that would make us better citizens and less crazy and distraught? Every time we turn on the news
I think one important inside that comes from Buddhism, which I think is very helpful in this kind of conversation, is that the on the argument that compassion and instinct for kindness is a very fundamental part of who you are and when you are able to express that you actually feel gratified you actually feel happy. You actually feel essential. Purpose and we all know that even where they deserve a workplace or at home when we are needed when we are useful, we, kind of valued. So this is a very fundamental need that humans ere you in your book, a fearless heart. You talk about the helpers high, exactly I actually had a chapter. My first book called the self interested case for not being a word. That starts with the DNA, with a k
and I think it's true that that my instincts isn't it. I had to talk about compassion, as is from a selfish NAM point, is, is the way to go exact and that's actually what his holiness promote. That's that yes, and he says that if you want to be a wise, selfish compassion is the way to go. And it's a kind of almost paradoxical- and you know sometimes some other people have said in the house. Can dollar lemme see that it's good to be selfish and My argument is its lettuce. Is that he's not advocating selfish but he's saying that since pursuit of self interest is an important, the drive that all of us have anyway, then he's making the case that if you take that seriously, then be compassion. So the point I was trying to make is that, since we have that within ass, the moon, we are able to leave live from that place, the more we are able to view others from that place. the more we are able to view ourselves from that place.
Our own life becomes more meaningful, morn joyful. So that is the self interest argument. You know that paradoxes in an ideal world. You don't want to be doing compassionate because it's good for you, because in actual act of compassion, the focus, three, the other in a. Rather, it is trying to help your kid or with its trying to help a poor person or whether you are trying to help and elderly trying to cross the street at both Beetroots Hamilton. well in an actual act of kindness. Conscious motivation is going to be about the other, yes, but the having transcending your own narrow self interest, is pleasing in and of itself examined and that that's and theirs- and that's not a contradiction. You know it's it's basically, when we act out of kindness,
towards and fellow human beings, we feel a sense of connection in Ireland at the core of the fieldwork. Bashing is an identification. That's why compassion is very different. Piti Piti tends to look down you put yourselves superior, place. Where is compassion tend to be in a more respectful because you are identifying with other person so, when you able to do that. You feel kind of in some sense you feel and heart your thing kind of ex expanded, so it is good for you, but in the actual act from a psychologist point of view, the conscious psychology will be really but the other so back to our political scene, say programme, and I get people who love. Hillary Clinton drive me crazy. How could compassion be useful for me.
I think I'm in the convention will force You two, at least you know, make you move beyond the surface of the differences and try to understand why certain person hold such an opposite point of view so strongly and so deeply. Why added and the moment. You ask the question why? Then you are able to connect, because at the end that the basic level, even though to people maybe you're, holding a completely political opinion on a given topic. The reason why they are holding those views, if you start digging deep, they may be the same- they have they happen. There were different conception of how society should be structured. How to get there and the differences are really about the method, the means not about what
so that allows you an end if nothing else it prevent you from being hateful, and that is a gift in it. because it's because you don't really want to go through the rout of hating. Someone is a great expression from the Buddha. That anger has Honeyed Tipp over. It feels good honey Tipp, but a poison route, yes, and so it can feel there can be a little bit of dopamine associated with in ascending mean tweet or whatever, but actually in my experience, it feels better not to be carrying around a backpack full of hate it all the time. It's it's it, sir. It's tiring! Yes, yes, basically, its tiring till. We ask you about this. There was this
Meda analysis journal article of the scientific journal article recently, and they looked at a lot of studies of meditation, not just compassion, meditation, but mindfulness, meditation and you'll tell me what they concluded. As you know, the steady better than me, but I saw all the headlines and pull out, is the headlines or bathing. Essentially one of them was meditation, does not make you a better person and there are tons of headlines about about their. How meditation basically is complete bologna, because it's not it's gonna not make your way first person anyway? Is this study onto something or is there a problem here? No, no. I think that that is a very important one. Actually is
met. Analysis is a very, very recent study and also its very timely, because this there's a kind of a high right now and sometimes the people were advocates of meditation, sometimes give the impression that this is the panacea. At an infected. The beginning of that study, I was surprised to see. There was, of course I voted today, is solid as saying that, if each in the, if every child learns timidity of age of aid in a generation, there'll be no violence and many Solon, as is not that night I don't know how that called got attitude to him so thought it was that what you ve trend, they found so, but I think, The point about get article, I think, is This is one thing about western consumer society when something works: ok, people dead,
latch on to it and then they everybody sort of gems the bandwagon, and then they start believing almost like a kind of the call it miracle of minds emitted division. So there you know people was their eyes and then expect there's some kind of miracle going to happen. so so there is that danger. But if you look at the traditional, for example, put his understanding, which is one to do she from when meditation practice came from. But it turns out that even in the western tradition there was in the Greek Orthodox Church, there is, as they used to be a strong meditation tradition cabinet have sent. You can send from past So if you look at the buddhist tradition, really transformation isn't really seen as just a functional meditation. It really is is seen as a function of combining couple of things. One is knowledge in a witch.
This concept of mine, changing mindset, that is an important part of the Buddhist, is kind of you not ideals. One factor for transformation union, to which you need to learn to see the wool and yourself in a different way to knowledge, is an important part of it. One is intention you need to somehow prime you you're no kind of unit in instinct, prime, your behavior. In a way that you would want it to be so, there's conscious, intention setting that remembering yourself, the value of compassion on a daily basis. You know what your value and how you want to leave you a day. So the debate but, as I said the intention every morning, so that it becomes a sort of a sets torn for the day, so conscious intention setting is another important point in the third one is of course, meditation meditation in that the wind which
its understood. The tradition is not just a process by which you calm your mind with just one part of it and being aware and be staying in this present, but meditation also has another function, which is, courses by which you internalize This new way of seeing things so that it gets processed, saw that transformation of your body, earlier we just where you want to see. The results is really seen as functional Combining these ratings knowledge on the one side. New understanding things, internalization of that to meditation and learning to regulate your own negative emotional reactions and then sitting your intentions consciousness, or that you want a daily basis may connection with your day David it activity in the values,
oh dear, and that's how transmission can take place. This is why, in the Cambridge not came with the Stanford compassion, training, which we now offered through a nonprofit organization called Compassion Institute. Intention sitting is an important part of it and also having some understanding of the psychology. Basing psychology of the human mind is anymore, you stated whether your programme changes baby. Well, there was in the in the study that was the matter analysis. One of the papers they came out of our programme was listed there, but it is, I think, it's too early to now. Look at it. So it's that the basic pointed the meditation alone does not alter behaviour acting as it is. I think that is a fact
but the even the authors weren't sure that they didn't save meditation alone doesn't alter behaviour. They basically said the studies themselves are just not designed well enough, yeah a problem with You have the knowledge exactly and then they were you Norman. Under the one important point you are making. Was there dumb mindfulness compassion meditation do seem to enhance onto a poor social emotions, compassion and empathy, but the effects on prejudice and connected ness and aggression.
Was almost non existent. So there was an interesting thing because in if, if that pans out, it raises a powerful challenge, because one would hope, through compassion, meditation in other feeling of connected openness with people of a different background would increase, because a key part of compassion meditation is the reinforcement of the recognition of common humanity. just like me when I visit does it. This is give you any this great any doubt in your mind about whether what your teaching works now, I think it's too early, right now. Many of the meditation researches pretty crude and many more its pre and post and many of them don't have active control comparison, explain that, because premature prima pre and post is basically you test the people before
intervention is offered typical of their aid programmes and be as our stand for compassion, compression cultivation, training desire it weak programmes. So you do some test. the beginning, then you offer the class and at the end you test. So some of these tests may have to do with the in already increases your attention or mindfulness or prosociality in your or all in all kind of empathy across different background, we know for example, ice racial buys test is also be used to test that, so this but then a good study would actually have an active control group, which is similar programme, similarly structured, but it would be a different programme that is offered, so these people will sign up for eight weeks or whatever it is, which involves
indifferent, not the programme itself, and then you would also have a weight listed group who will get the programme later, but their signed in, but they're not given at the moment, so they just waiting for the programme so that there is an end separation, so that might affect so. You then compare these three and the results, and if there is a significant city, statistical difference among the groups, then saying something so right now, and there are very few programmes and research programmes that would read because its costly, so it sounds like you says to me that you strongly suspect that what you're teaching does work and that for twenty six hundred years that people been doing compassion meditation it has. It hasn't been wasted time. So, but what about for me somebody's got to write a book about com.
I do have to just say right up front, but we have no evidence that this thing actually works. No, I don't think. I think that I think the point is not about whether compassion meditation works. I think the point is, how does it work and what needs to be combined with it that from the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people believe that the Mediterranean is the panacea. If you close my eyes and thence sit there, something will happen What is more important, particularly unlike mindfulness for compassion type, meditation even when you close your eyes and meditated if you're,
compassion. Meditation. You are actually doing relational exercise. Compassion is always about, even if it is towards yourself, it's a self to self relationship. So let me just puts a meat on the bunderby, so just for people to warrant steeped in how it actually meditate basic my voters. Meditation is usually set eyes, closed back, regionally straight or your focus to the feeling of your breath come again and going out and then every time you get distracted, start again and again and again and again passion, meditation news, a different Riddy different modality, we're u same posture, but you are envisioning its taught differently in different traditions, or I do want to say too much about how you teacher, because I don't know, but I know how its taught in tradition, which I've been studying where you it close your eyes and invasion. People usually start with yourself.
and then you move to a benefactor and then a close friend and then neutral person somebody you see but overlook. Often and then a difficult person and then every and in each case you send you repeat, silently in your mind, a set of various happy phrases like. May you be happy, may you be safe, etc, etc. And the idea is that, just like in mindfulness meditation, where your training, your ability to focus and too be carried away by your emotions, so you can see clearly what's happening in your head without getting yanked around by it. So that's what being trained in straight up, mindfulness, meditation and compassion meditation. What your training is your ability to care about other people to feel connected to other people.
And so anyway, Edgewood is exactly how many this basic pattern is similar. The point I'm trying to make is that, even when you're meditating in compassion practice, it's about a relationship. So therefore compassion in order for the meditation to work You actually need to act, so you need to you know as well as a as part of your compassion, meditation practice. You then need to somehow practice it in your everyday life and seize the opportunity whenever an opportunity for arises so so so therefore this and then there is a two way influence that your compassion, meditation
makes you more aware than opportunities arise, because you are conscious lifting of compassion, your consciously connecting with compassion as part of your intention you're explicitly making that as one of your most important personal values. So all of this makes you makes it easier, for compassion to be more pronounced in your mind. So when the opportunity arises, then you express it and that acting out reinforces your meditation, needs to be. You know, because it meditation along is not going to work, because its assimilation, meditation confession meditation is a form of simulation. So in order for that similar and even the pilots who train in assimilation one day have to hold it
Nothing thing and fly in so the same thing that compares the effect of compassion. Meditation really has to come from doing it on a regular basis. And start starting with yourself, people Aren't you so that you know you are less red. If your less self centered, your more attentive, your more caring, how do you do an animus I think this is where I think the intention is a key, because if I have the intention, The intention is to reinforce this thing you know. I have to talk to you later. When will I didn't dinner that I've? I have an app tat. I was involved in and because I'm such a big delivering the conscious setting of your intentions in the EP, we have an intention setting device so you choose up to five intentions, and then he would set your time four reminder, and
for example, like one of the things that I ended up doing lately was at home after five third, around five thirty, I ended up liking. Looking for a glass of wine- and ideally I wouldn't want to- bringing the week days and up, but my wife is french. Can aid and my in laws are they love wine and food and stuff. So, sir, I've got into the habit of kind of taken glass or one regularly, which some people takes good for your help, but I don't really like it that much so after this I that was my first intention. Is avoid drinking at home during weekdays. Come five thirty, it brings me reminds me so then I check with I was successful or not, and then I tracked
across time. So this is how and it works, because what you are doing is instead of trying to suppress it by avoiding thinking about it. Your confronting it like an unmindfulness. the approach that the tibetan ideas. That said you intention in the morning and in the evening you created a review. I should do this because I read your book, and so I know you do what you say and it makes a difference to give my wife some. The point is that one needs to have a bit more nuance, understanding of how, Adaptation is supposed to work, special and compassion meditation, because just closing our eyes- and imagining is not going to do the trick, it needs to be reinforced by acting it out, and then one of the beauties of acting a doubt is that when you help someone there's a joy that comes with it and joy is what sustained
your motivation, because it makes you feel good, it enhances you. This is really important because I learned in my most recent book, gyro temperate unhappy about four years ago, that I wrote a book called meditation for fidgety sceptics in the goal of the second book was to get people actually do the thing, and I had to learn a lot about behavior change, science and habit formation, and what I learned was that willpower just saying you want to do something in getting your teeth and aiming to do. It is a terrible strategy, and that fact, if you can tap into the minds to the brains, rewards system, then actually you can create sustainable abiding
it's because it becomes pleasurable to do definite your I found that that, for me, being less of a jerk actually does feel good on the level of the mind in the moment. You're doing just take the moment of holding the door open for somebody if you're paying attention it feels reasonably good. That is, in my view, infinitely skill definitely the idea. I think that this is one area where, the new science of motivation is very interesting because sometimes and this is one area where sometimes of religion, release or shows a lack of understanding of human psychology, because it tends to hammer and then hammer and hammer and hammer and its people who don T good. I seen as some are weak, weak willed and- and you are right, the science shows us that expecting too much from your strength of your will, is not a long, lasting approach, because it is exhausting
feel rely too heavily on your will, so therefore having a strategy- and this is one of the reasons why, for example, in the many of the things that we learn from Buddhism, actually were initially designed to help the monks in a Buddhism initially was a monastic religion. It was designed to help the monks how to live their daily life without too much effort, because there are so many precept so mindfulness practice up matter, awareness practice. These are all there so that the monks and then they memorize older piece out. So you don't precepts of basic rules. For me, rules, and then you live your life because you create a structure, so there you don't realize just on the ESA exertion will all the time. So I think here the joy and so a few cement is really key minutes. You can eat push with your will
initially get motivated, but to sustain it will doesn't carry them. So I expected some German. We open a procurement which we're gonna do soon. People going to ask this, but I'll ask at first, if your compassion are you gonna get cloud over by your. nihilistic. We cruel boss, no an well if you can, if you act out of them, fashion in a wise way that shouldn't happen, because you should have the composure to be able to tell the boss at the right time. That was not a nice thing to do. So I think it's important because sometimes
and this is where the buddhist addition insist, that compassion should be combined with wisdom, because kindness alone is not the answer. The poorest Tibetans have expression. Idiot compassion is a minimum legal, sometimes call it misplaced compassion, but idiot compassion is, but only about its activities, will I think being compassionate does not mean that you give him but the income, I should add, requires you to amend it. it does require is to give the other person the benefit of the doubt Did you dont immediately arrested judgment? That's what we normally tend to do you dont immediately arrested judgment. You give that the present benefit doubt, but on a closer look if the weather
it wasn't has done was not only mean but actually done intentionally. Then you do need to stand up. But you can do so without losing your composure. because you understand the reason why this person did it he or she is doing it for a place of pain given the choice that person may not want to do it, but sometimes because there are more powerful position, they tend not to see that what they are doing is not the right thing. One less pressure remain. I will, in traditionally in compassion meditation. I don't know if it's true for how you teacher, but I think it is having read your book that usually start with or somewhere along the way. Sometimes you start with s and has your bill to compassion for yourself a lot of people really struggle with that. Why is it so important?
I met this is this is a very interesting I, by the way, which would have no problem This is a very interesting question. Actually, the first protocol that are developed and announced Stanford used the traditional format so would begin to itself will begin with a little bit of mindfulness type practice to settle your mind and basic men, meditation skills, then self, then a loved one and then saw, but then the teacher who taught it to undergraduates. He and I sat down after he told her twice and he said to many students which are struggling. They just get stuff. So, in turns out that in the West Self compassion, is, for some strange reason, a real challenge for many people that somehow they just even some people have iversen reaction to thinking about it
often phrases. The odds of saying. May I be happy in may I find peace is a kind of a reversible reaction, even too thinking about that phrase directed to oneself so, but My own feeling is that What do you need self compassion to have compassion for others, because I would argue Passion for others is a more fundamental human, create then for self, because we as social creatures in arrived from wood, We always latch want. You know it's a Charles Legend Want or mother in others,
This relationship is what defines us, so your perception of the other is probably more fundamental and relationship with others. More fundamental to, I would argue compassion for other, is probably more fundamental impulse than for self, but to sustain compassion for a long time long term. If you dont, have a basic level of self compassion, then you can sustain compassionate tool because at some point you get burned up and then not only that worse thing is that, as a result of Not having self compare enough cell compassion? You start resenting the people for whom you have given so much of your life, feeling that somehow they are the ones who made me suffer one ungrateful
if you have a degree of self compassion, then it acts as a kind of up in a buffer against that kind of exhaustion. So I would argue that, in order to have sustained compassion for many other others, you do need a fairly a solid basis of self compassion. Let's over every questions. My actual always my favorite part of it all right their ends up will work our way through. So one word, it hasn't been part of the discussion is ego and in light of the readings that I've done in thinking that I've done about meditation, theirs There is the issue of the ego and men They should actually allowing you to relax, but also to tempt down the ego and strike to me that, if
you're in the middle of a lot of hectic activity and you take a break and your meditating, and then you get back to the hectic activity, without their being some kind of change in the ego consciousness. Then it's. the equivalent of a four year old, getting a time out and began a four year old immediately again I would have to believe that if there is this other dimension, ego management, if you will that over time it's cumulative and then the compassion component is more pronounced. So if you could maybe the dress that think I'll, let you asked a question about was I, as the father, but three role, that often after the time out my kid is actually much better. so anyway, I mean he's in awful person that face. I have been telling stories about how I walked into the
nursery of not now go, and he was gleefully urinating on his nannies leg. That's are you really everybody I look at it faces like? Oh, that's my face, Michael anchored, you do Chang one why collectors and no line says that she tells Oliver friends be careful we. Leap with because you'll end up raising him, though it always it I've had a few moments. I guess where I've asked the Dalai Lama completely inappropriate question. I've had to watch him translate to get get to your question. I'm an ego is quite a complicated term in Ireland. There's a lot of baggage behind it because of
lloyd and psychology in all these other, but the basic point that has to do with some sense of self major some sense of self, and often a lot of people have problem because of that relationship. The perception of them else- and I you know I sometimes in I'm- because I sort of mixed with many different kind of group settings. Sometimes you see individuals who are very well meaning kind hearted. But then because they have this complicated relationship. There sense of self, some how this self comes in the way it has always led day stumble on their own selves
This is probably what you mean by the Eagle issue and hear one would hope that by meditating ITALY's at the basic level, one will become a bit more self aware because in meditation you're, not only a quite me your mind, you are in some sense taken a reflective standpoint. Because normally, if you'd on meditate were constantly reacting to a situation in which is being taken by then the tide, wave meditation allows you to take a step back, be reflective, take a stand and observed so you learn to you no kind of disengage and and learn to been observer and in this way begin to see certain patents in the way you think believe in Ireland and many of us
I been taught patterns, are formed quite early and its difficult for us to see is there such an important natural part of who we are, but by meditating we begin to see those patterns and the Corky things that you as Individual do so you become more effective and that's the idea that, if you are really meditating, you know it is mindfulness. Tat practice already does compassionate type practice whatever it is. all of these. These meditation practices require poisoning your mind at the beginning and taken that stones and the handing back and you're not giving yourself that space. I think, then, these issues will become or more of use to you, and then you know become more and more obvious to you. Then you have a chance to handle them and because at the bottom, all of us want to be nice. People
all. I want to be more fun to be with always want to be kinder and sometimes our own Corky personalities and habits come in the way- and here I think, meditation can really help, because one thing that dumb particularly the modern, mindfulness meditation. One amazing power of that teaching individuals, the skill to have this metal Venice, to step back and observe, what's happening in the theatre of your mind, and that ability to step back and observe is a powerful because you're not an, and I would argue this is exactly the reason why mindfulness based corner to behaviour. Turkey is proving to be quite effective prevention of relapse of depression, because often relapse of depression is,
aggravated by Ruminations Ruminations Spiral thinking. You know you believing in the store that you tell yourselves where's my the fullness of your meditated cultivated. It teaches you too, killed a casual so and then stem Basque. back and say well, this is just a thought. This is just a thought. Him observe it and it immediately cuts that spiralling energy, so that you don't get sucked into this That's the reason. I would argue that probably the one of the main reasons why it's proven to be quite effective in preventing relapse not almost treating but preventing relapse of depression, because it helps you deal with Romania, where it makes sense to me. Another question. German second row here Can you be truly compassionate without understanding suffering? I mean in a way that you have to understand someone else suffering to be compassionate and if so,
on how to do that in a society where we deny or suffering so much, I think all of us No, what suffering is it doesn't really matter how successful you are, how famous you are how rich you are. You know how enlighten you are. It doesn't really matter. I think we all know what suffering is in others. This is one powerful inside of the Buddha suffering. The fact of suffering the reality of suffering is part of what, ask human beings, and I would argue that actually the vulnerability to pan and sufferings is what makes us, and but the decree the reason why, when we see total, stranger bleeding and crying. We instinctively thing for person. The biggest suffering is such a powerful connector.
in a we don't need to know all the ins and outs of the details of that particular person situation. We know what is in a we. What suffering is we know what painting We know what need is so I dont think we need to know the specificity of the situation. Of course, if you know more about it, the chances of being able to Emma Deeper is there, but even without that, because otherwise it will be very difficult for a man to be having a compassion and empathy for women who is going through a sudden painfully. There's that only women can go through so idea that somehow we cannot empathize with that. Just doesn't make any sense. but of course you're right. If some cases, when the suffering is not evident and
hope of that when they are counter forces like prejudices and saw baseline differences of religion or some complicated history than in those cases, then we need to make an effort to find that connection. Without finding that connection, we won't feel compassion and an infect what happens in in a deep personalization and demonization or other is exactly the opposite of what happens when you are able to connect with other groups and fill empathy, you disconnect then unit in order to do horrible, your horrific things on other people, somehow we need to do personalized that person first, we need to ignore you no kind of Objectify festival of defy and then, in some cases, demonize to justify what we're doing against that those people
and this is what we see in history. So that's why I think, advocating compassion, Kayden Compassion, says it's really such an important point, because it I us the ability to find a common language of humanity, so compassion discourse can actually be the powerful antidote for just course. That divides us front row Then I see I see you man, I my question is actually the opposite of the question that was asked for those people who are in the business of caring for others, like nurses or doctors, people who are constantly in position of providing compassionate care such term as compassion fatigue, so for those people.
How do we maintain the level of compassion and without getting so burned up? Well, thank you. This is a very, very important question and now Other signs is beginning to make distinctions between empathy and compassion. and beginning to recognise, actually, even at the brain level, the expressions are a little different. And one of the night is a promise in the compassion. Training programme is some possibility of teaching individuals, particularly at the forefront of this kind of you not acute care, giving ability to not disconnect, because sometimes doctors
a nurse is in as part of their self protection mechanism. There, London detached and they d learn to do personalize the patient, so they they don't have to deal with the pain, and that turns out to be actually in the long run, not a good strategy. It actually eats into you, like the doctors and mash making Nero exactly ass. It turns out to be quiet, and it turns out that this is one of the main causes for physicians burn out. Do personalization of the patient, But, on the other hand, if your constantly exposed- and if you open the door, do you avoid the other extreme of just getting fit compassion for tee, so here the conversion into that term. You know we have recently is established to take on this work of propagating this compassion, training we're in the middle of a cooperation programme with couple of hospital.
in some doctors on developing a special module to deal with fish and burn out, so that they can be taught certain skills and the idea being that you can be empathetic but not get stuck in empathy to move on to compassion, The distinction between empathy and compassion is empathy is more emotional, your resonate in your ceiling for and The focus is really. The problem when you are able to move to compassion than the focus also becomes a solution. What can I do is a more empowered state of mind. So because it also has an in India in them the scientific research particularly Tanya singer, add in in in german him. She has done a lot,
work and it turns out when people are asked to move our empathy to compassion the mortar regions. Promoter area, which are connected with you. Not acting out, gets active, so there seems to be more proactive, saw those These are very early days, but hopefully, We have a quota, ambitious plan right now at the Compassion Institute working with some hospitals. So hopefully something like this will come out. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Did it the day or meditative forms one of the more developed part of our brain, the new cortex, then the more primitive parts of our brain. The problem with the discussion and studies suggested, is that things like
motivation. Attention is in a relatively develop part of the brain things like compassion. Dopamine surge around the feel good. is also while develop, but hate prejudice that, in the most reptiles in part of our brain and the most difficult to control, so shouldn't meditation, not be one. Size fits all but more directed to the euro. Science is that we do know that That's a very, very good question I would actually, take issue with the idea that you know emotions like hate and aggression. anger and more fundamental. Then emotions like kindness and compassion. I would take issue with that. because, even from a scientific point of view, we are biological and social creatures,
social creatures and biology involved in such a way that we, There's a mechanism built in us to sustain that relationship and nurture it So- and this is one of the tragedy of modern science narrative one's eyes narrative, has focused so much on the aggression and competitive part of it. narrative of the human evolution but an and competition, but it can really disregarded until recently now is changing the others. the story which is not our nurturing impulse, You know I'll carrying impulse, the evolution of cooperation. It turns out that if you don't take into account this impulse for nurturing and connection, we can't explain evolution of human complex cooperation, so I will take issue that in our I would argue that implies.
For not and connecting and craving for others. Kind of fuel, affection and love is as fundamental as other forces, let aggression and hate. Now attention and emotion, regulation and those kind of things of course has to do with prefrontal cortex there much later developed. But the more emotional kind of brain, including in our empathy and compassion, I would argue more fundamental, so in the end, the point you are making about one size fits all is an important one and in on some times there is a tendency in the mindfulness community to somehow suggest that this is the panacea for everyone. I am sometimes some people would even one argue that this is the essence of the buddhist meditation and then the rest is all kind of rituals and cultural kind of things. And I have one location, said that that actually is not very helpful,
it's one thing to say: we have extracted something from the buddhist techniques and secularized it, because it's a universal skill. That's perfectly fine, but then to suggest that somehow this captures the essence of Buddhism. It's not a very helpful because you know, but if you look at the medicine for example? Now we have the mindfulness practice, we have loving kindness practice. We have now compassion practice. there's a whole swede of meditation practices. The buddhist tradition as a hope approach in dealing with anger, and I look at shouted Davis text as a whole chapter on this. So there are many different types of meditation. In these resources- and in fact the tradition says that you know, for example, according to the meditation Tyrian put his text. We identified six or seven men, personality types and depending on the personality type, it recommends certain type.
Meditation. So that's why you know. My point is that the medication research now is still in a very early stage, at the moment we are looking at a very generalised understanding We haven't even gotten close to understanding the mechanism of how it is working We do know that there are some effects that it is helping Ex one said we do now, but we don't know how We don't even know which one other more active ingredients. We don't know to what extent the feds waste seeing as a result of this gentleness of the teacher was given clause at this been honest, You don't really know that view and commit the sign from a slightly different someone. You commented at somebody's hinting engage in the scientific process. I come at it as as from use this term little bit tongue in cheek, but as an eventual, as you know, I mean I'm trying to introduce meditation discharge audiences and what I like to tell people is:
You know that the sciences and it's the science had become the lingua franca and our culture and its really useful. For me to talk about the science. You don't you might start meditating, because you think you're prefrontal cortex will change you eat meditating, because that I completely agree, we ve got all sorts of questions here. When you started a friend and I see you up there, you spoke a bit about the west's relationship to self compassion, and I wondered if you could. I think I guess, especially in our society, that self capacity compassion is seen in direct opposition to our societies, ideas of pushing yourself for getting ahead, and so I wondered you could talk a bit about your views on that
a process, and also where that line of thinking maybe incorrect. I think at the heart of the problem or self compassion for those who are struggling. Is, I think, that's the problem. Part of the problem really has to do with a sense of self worth you're. Not if your sense of self worth is clearly defined externally. Then you have a problem. if you can define your sense of self worth, not just externally as a good father or as a good parent whatever it is all we are as couple person, but also internally, as someone who is a human, being an old rest. Then there seems to be less problems. I think it has to do with sense of self worth and I think self being self,
kind kind to yourself really doesn't mean just slackened that leash. I don't think it means to be self indulgent, sometimes in the west. There is that tendency to be self kind. You should treat yourself ever chocolate, nothing, so it is almost like. Infantilism yourself, so I think the sun a genuine self kindness principle, since that you have a healthy attitude towards yourself and healthy self image then also from that comes a healthy impulse towards you, so that you treat yourself with kindness and that should manifest, particularly when you're going through a difficult when you have a failure, disappointment, That's when it is so crucial, so there you learn from that experience, rather than being herself when you buy yourself, then you become ill,
eleven averse everywhere reaction to that kind of experience, and then every time you have a feel invisible then you you completely lose your composure. You lose your berry. So I think this is one area where self kindness being myself kindness involves being able to relate to yourself as a human being with all the you complications and weaknesses and in a and saw but at the same time, a human being who deserve happiness just like anybody else. This sort of words, is a more realistic sense of who you are of course, he's all illnesses that when you talk about competition is a positive kind of competition which is motivated by not wanted to be left behind. there is a negative competition, is you're willing to stumble upon others to get on the top. So, You would want to avoid that
but that doesn't mean you should not compete, you would want to compete because you want to bring the best out of you. You know, contribute the best that you are capable of so I think being self kind enough. I believe you know get some alike. Is he's, got a very healthy dose of compassion, But he's not lacked, you know, he's very hardworking Skoda, quite a high standard for himself. You know he gets over three thirty in the morning. Does it Thing is constantly interacting with others. Does this thing the IRA's meditation meditation so He really you know. So you can see that having a healthy those of self compassion does not mean that you are being Sawston yourself. I think that this is where I think it's important to to make that distinction, sometimes in because of this kind of you
that the code that that the consumer is called is very complicated. On the one hand, it's all about self gratification in oil and gas, Joseph gratification, about the gratification right now And we also the couch and the rest has his aversion toward thinking about yourself, because it's probably that has to do with culture, background of your non christian value system and all the rest of what I know what it is. It is so, Did this creates a very complicated relationship itself, certain for someone like myself coming from outside, and you know I was brought up in the asian culture seeing this paradox. It is interesting to the obvious, but if you're living, if you're part of that society, then it's not very obvious and just as anthropologist are able to point out. The weird things about my own culture, but I dont see them because that part of it in a saint.
Rest too. I think you know this is where I think the self compassion land The message is a serious one and need to somehow find a distinction between the self absorption and genuine self compassion. Some implosion is ultimately not a healthy you're gonna write their hand up, and if I miss you were to be found in and if you, by several books, I'll answer whatever questions, I think you ever pre shaded very much. The discussion about is meditation enough is mindfulness. Meditation enough is compassion, meditation enough for really seeing change in behaviour, in particular and the thing that's been coming to mind for me, as you ve been speaking, is about what's happening in Myanmar around D by
once against Romania, Muslims and in part, and cited by some buddhist monks. and so I'm wondering if you my comment on that and talk a little bit about what hope there is for the rest of us if his monks in an area that steeped in both this philosophy, can still sort of may still be engaging in and behaviour. That's really more about us versus them, rather than a collective experience. Just good, where ropes doesn't mean you, Well, thank you for the question this this is. You know a very, very painful history. Right now, what has happened to. Almost a million ranges, refugees stuck in Bangladesh and and also how the majority of Buddhist Community has responded to that. Station to denial and
I'm. Not even using the term grow hinder referred to the community. All of this I know this is a source of great pain, trees, all in his son. He Saddam is worth to us, which is several times in fact, even before the major crisis began when they was beginning to emerge, his holiness met without sense, which twice and in both occasions he brought them up and said he was he's very worried that there is a real potential for expulsion here and needs to be addressed But one thing that we learn from this The burmese Buddhists and a majority attitude, but us your attitude towards, what's happening to the Rangers, is a powerful truth about human beings, It doesn't really matter how beautiful a teaching is
the moment we use the label mine and hours. We have the ability to really make the differentiation between us and them and turn even something like Buddhism into a vehicle, an instrument for oppression so in a week, but I would like to say that we are less things skeletons in a closet in terms of history. But the fact is, if it is a religion, it will get used and religion tend to somehow tend to pool at a very deep level of identity and emotion for those who believe them, and once you tongues underlined, I this into a basis of national identity and the ethnic identity, then You know you can justify anything in the name of protecting that. And this is what has been powerful demonstrated and Buddhism
Isn't it cannot escape no matter how beautiful the actual teaching itself is in a way humans. Society can turn it into a weapon that will be used in a negative way and unfortunately, that's what has happened and I know that there is a movement on western Buddhists teachers who, collected signatures unite. Jacksonville was involved in this, trying to somehow draw attention, also. I think it was a bit adasa, not put a desert one of the major teaches here who infected especial compilation of all the teachings from the Buddhist sutras? Talking about the importance of how many in society and having compassion for the? U not people other than
one tribe and all of this been compilation. These were translated back into Burma's language and distributed. So there is an alternative voice. True, although right now that voice doesn't seem to be strong enough to really kind of Fiona Counter what seems to be the main position, and to what extent this is being investigated. by the military itself and the civilian government, is just too terrified, because they are worried that they might use it as an excuse to turn back the clock to what extent. That is what is causing the restraint and to what extent the monastic silent is caused by fear, I'm not sure sure it seems. We are very, very complicated to said, since
vision, and I think the buddhist world should really speak up in union in a single voice to say that not an Buddhism name. That really has to be the point made its if you're talking about nationalism and ethnic division and ethnic differences, its wanting, but you cannot use Buddhism as a basis, an excuse for treating a whole community of people who are different as somehow justified by in the protection of the dogma. That's a verdict.
So I think the buddhist voices that matter needs to speak up. Thank you very well said. Thank you very much. Greater job- and I thank you- create a society, they give everybody for coming out and I really appreciate it. I think you're. Ok, that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe rate us off if you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover our guests that we should bring in hit me up on twitter at Danby. Harris importantly, I want to thank the people who produce this podcast, or an Efron just go ahead and the rest of the folks here, any BC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other broadcasts. You can check them out at every single time, casts dot com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday.
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