Spring Washam was on a meditation retreat when she felt herself falling apart, so much so that she picked up "the red phone," screamed out "HELP." That moment launched Washam onto a "whole other journey" to work through her past and find sources of her suffering, which she details in her book, "A Fierce Heart: Finding Strength, Wisdom, and Courage in Any Moment."
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC ten percent happier Vodka Dan, a return guess this week when my favorite humans spring washroom, who I make fun of in by first book, ten percent happier relentlessly, but she then turns out to be the hero of the key chapter in that book. Add she's back because you, if you, if you ve, heard her first visit great, you don't need it. go back and listen. If you haven't heard it, it's all good, but even if you did here and remember her first tour of duty on his podcast, various a whole side to her story. That is really increased lend and disturbing and inspiring it's all in a new book that she's written and I was unaware of a lot of this biographical information in till, but until this interview so you'll hear it all come pour out from
spring and you know it involves incarceration involves race in involves lots of really thorny sub, and at the heart of it all is somebody who has made it out and has really used this practice of meditation. to train her own mind and some very difficult circumstances and is now this really impact will teacher, as I know first hand from having learnt from her okay. So that's that's coming up. First, though, let's do calls and as always the caviar, I'm not a mental health professional, not a meditation teacher, I'm just a reporter and I'm also meditate her, and I do my best
through these questions, which I have not heard it advanced to the best mobility who's gonna ruin. My name is Teresa. I'm from AIR Delaware. I've been listening to your all your pockets and two, and I read ten percent happier. It was life altering and I've been meditating for about two years now. Here's the question I have when people talk about meditation end on there's been some negative press lightly about it. Whether you know it's all its cracked us today and in other researches is flawed, and all this I think about the fact that on many occasions you said there is no harm, and I was wondering if you know of any studies that say that meditation can be harmful, because the way I look at it is that is its not hurting me, and it is helping me personally. Why shouldn't I try to have a better life, so I was just wondering: is there any reason
sure do you know of any research that states that meditating can be harmful and anyway thanks. So much and thank you for all you do. Thank you two years meditating. It's really good so close to you for that and a great question, and I noticed In my own mind when, when there are these kind of anti meditation nor meditation hit pieces that run. I can see my own kind of defensiveness come up or down and all this stuff and that's an interesting process to watch the most recent one word a few weeks ago there was a piece in the New York Times about the fact. Medication may make employees less motivated, and there was a great response to that. Peace written by Richie, Davidson previous guest on this path cast and are in a hunting, and also previous guesses. Pod cast
talking about at putting it in much greater perspective, and actually there are a lot of studies that show that meditation makes you much more effective in the workplace, and so they cast a lot of doubt about it, but it didn't really interesting thing to watch that there is. The people are ready for work were at this stage in the hype cycle. Where people are you know, meditation has received a lot of hype. I've been part of the problem We even even though I tried not defeated by calling my whole thing, ten percent happier, in other words not over promising, but still I'm sure, I'm part of the problem. But but we're in this stage, where meditation has gotten so much hope that when there are data points, it suggests may, not all be all its cracked up to be people, love, jumping on it and you know that's cool. I get it to a mouse. I must not getting media type, so I understand how that goes. I've been plenty of snark and everything I do so fair. You know turn about his fair play. I nonetheless
I think you know you ve heard me say this before, but the science, but I think it bears repeating. Theory- is quite a large body of science, which is still in its early stages, but I think we can safely say is strongly suggest that meditation confers a law The list of health benefits like lower your blood pressure, boosting european immune system in and the nurse eyes. That shows that it requires key parts of your brain that that is out there and yes, some of the sites out. There is not very good. We have to just say that and the scientific process, when you take a look at it, Numb Mare to his harvest in the child. Scientists have me it's? No, it's a messy process and its basically an argument had in public in these journals. And it can be egg, has the ups and downs and back and forth, but I think that the arc of history- a little grandiose is is no leading us toward the conclusion that meditation. He is
for you. There are all sorts of different kinds: may not be good for everything up there were there, just isn't it, I was listening back. I don't usually go Listen to my pike S, but I was as part of some research I'm doing for an upcoming book, I was listening back to a recent pike, as we did with thumped and GIN Pa who's. The primary English translator forward the Dalai Lama and also a academic and former bunk really smart guy and has written a book about compassion and we did alive event to get here. He likes bring. Washroom has been on the pact yes, twice in, I was listening to the second part cast with him, which we did live together at the age. Side here in New York, and I asked him it at one point about another another. There had at this point ray Only when we recorded that podcast been another ash of articles, admittedly got hit pieces because there had been a study that showed that people were to show that people
when they learn how to meditated didn't actually make them nicer. I might not be saying that accurately, but it was some that's I think the general just of it and his his response was great. He was he was so not defensive. His response was well, let me they may be right, I don't know, but what we say for sure his then this is hymns. Talking is that medical aid? You know when it comes to being a better person meditation isn't enough, it's really helpful, but you actually have to eat it, do nice things in the world that mean that is actually part of the training you. You have to be kind actually in your life, so done enough to just sit in practice, kindness as a meditation technique. You actually have to do it. The point of meditation isn't to become, as share Salzburg, always says, a better meditated appointed to become a better human and either those are really wise point to make
and something to bear in mind when you, when these these states have negative news coverage happen: Visa v, meditation that seem to occur occasionally like the weather, but to answer the question to actually asked me. Oh it or is it one thing before that I've said his millions has, but it is worth saying again: because there are some people, myself included, who get sucked into these media spasms that happen once in a while. It's do this. I am glad the sides happening as meditation evangelist. I it's it's an incredible tool, but you have to use it in your voicemail that that you ve been doing this for two years: eat showing benefits in your own mind. That's the thing that matters you didn't you know at the end of the day, for people who already meditating? Who cares what the science says? Who cares the its eight really? Is it working for you and
we who who knows whether you're prefrontal cortex, looks different right now, that's not the measure. The measure is, are you less of a jerk to yourself and others, but tat your question? I e you know of one at least one study that shows detrimental effects of meditation and the authors of that study were on this podcast go back and search for the episode, Willoughby, Britain and Jared Lyndal or never married. They wrote a study, their brown university professors about something called the dark night. Well, actually, that's not in the title of their study, but essentially there are looking at something called the dark night, which is a phrase used for a phase in meditation, which is a difficult phase that happens to meditate and and they they speak with some real authority about this phase in meditation that some people hit where they
they really have psychological difficulties, perhaps as a consequence of their meditation it's it's not fully known, but it would be wrong to say, that there are no adverse effects possible of meditation. We have in the scientific literature, documented cases of people who run into problems while meditating from what I can tell it's, pretty rare like pretty rare, but it's but that it never happens and are also seems to happen again. This is not always the case, but it seems to happen to people who are doing intensive retreats. But again that is happen to people on much lower doses. I dont think people drop in like flies with rotation related elements, but it's you know I mean. Maybe a rough comp would be getting hurt at the Jim. You know I think,
that's probably more common in Europe that more often than I do have than Europe about people having problems while meditating. But you know every doctors gonna tell you, you should be getting physical exercise. Some sort and we all know as possible to get injured, and I think that same thing may be true, although in life my feeling- and I really doubt it back this up, and that is that injuries, quoting What happened at a much lower level of meditation long answer? You got me fired up. Here's call number two: This is the from West Virginia and I have a question. About whether meditation I could help improve my focus data there. My job is then boring, but it requires concentration and reasoning, skill biscuit
I'm reading through medical records analyzing, I'm writing about them. They had some days. Is it's a struggle most days it's a shuttle to focus on but the job provides could benefit. And health insurance and I want to keep it from my family. So I can never patient help. Thank you, but I am a great question I get so worked up in the last answer that I started my body temperature rose. I too take my sweatshirt off, ok, but but we're talking about you know. I can't help it because it's a bunch of they say about this. There is a significant amount of evidence that suggests that meditation can require the part brain that has to do with attention regulation. So yes, the short answer is yes, it seems to help with focus of a big part of
focus in wet and allow me to say my own personal experience. I do believe that it has helped my focus, but it has its not miraculous. I still get distracted by twitter or Now, for my son or whatever, and I think you're it meditation I think you're, a bunch of other ancillary systems I could put into power its habits. I could form that would really help with focus and productivity and ice at some point. research. Those fighting meditation is one thing that can help with focus, but I would I wouldn't look at it as some miracle cure and I would look at it as part of a suite of things that you could do to stay locked on whatever you're trying to do, but a big part in my experience of focus is interest like in what one of the pieces of advice you often hear from meditation. Teachers is to bring interest and curiosity
an investigation to whatever it is that coming up in your mind- and this is just an incredible fact- you're a mental factor that can be harnessed to your benefit, and I hear a problem for you in that you called you work, dead, boring, I get it that you may have no other option. I and I completely respect that enough, so I'm not trying to make trouble here, but I wish for you if I could give you any advice. I would investigate. Why were you the possibility of safely switching her horse? without jeopardizing the benefits. the salary that you need to take every family. Obviously, that has to be job number one, but it's hard to be united figure from parents here that it's hard to be the best you can be with your family. If you're, you know spending a significant percentage,
You have your waking hours unhappy, yeah, I'm not trying to make trouble. I don't know all the particulars of your situation. I very sensitive to the economic imperatives here, so I, got to do what you got to do and good on you for doing it. If you're beat you're doing the right thing, but if you could, if it was a possibility of finding ways to to- change your mind in ways there will be more fulfilling. I would love to see that happen for you, but anyway, the short answer your question is meditation has been shown to help with focused. So I would look at that and also look at some other things from people who have broader. Set of knowledge than I do. There's a good book called focus by Danny Goldman Daniel Goldman, who had been on this package to couple times so might take a look at that some really how to book, but a talks of can glean some pretty actionable advice from that. Ok, thank you. Let's get to spring.
Spring, is a meditation teacher based in the Bay area. Although I hear she's moving to another part of California, I don't know if she wants me to say where that is and she wrote a book called a fierce heart, me strength, courage and wisdom. In any moment, she knows that I'm the kind of person who's gonna make fun of her for using the word heart in her book title and she has a long history of me making fun of her, because I did it with a lot of relish in ten percent happier in the chapter about where I went off and asylum or take meditation retreat and she I found her really really annoying. But then I realized TAT. I was the one was jerk and she's swooped and save me when I was having a lot of trouble in meditation. None was thinkin about quitting and it really occasioned something of a breakthrough in my own meditation practice, and subsequently we ve become friends and she's. Just a few. a person she was on, as I mentioned the podcast about, year ago, or maybe even more, and she has this incredible stuff.
ray of her own personal biography, and we, as I learned when I started to look at her new book, her first book. We barely scratch the surface of what this person has lived through and that she has not only survive but through. and turned around her life and used her experiences to help How many people in so many different situations is a real achievement so welcome back to spring wash em here. She is now runs out what part your background, the actually warrant covered in that first podcast in particular, I will say that at reading the first part of his book I didn't know how difficult your childhood was. Men knew you mention and a little bit, but I really didn't know in ways. Much do you as you share in this book, so you tell me a little bit about the relationship between your parents, yeah balance alone. Interesting, I mean I'm in contact with them. I am
and have an amber day. You know, as I been in contact with one another. No no they. My mother is re married at my Father lives in Delaware, now, actually you know it's that it's late teachers didn't have any capacity to be parents like many parents, How did they meet tell that surround there? They met on their friends couch the friend they ran on a day while for homeless he had just got out of prison and she had just left another relationship. Your dad just got out of the air, but it was and wine here present charge for a check for a jury is like really, you know he's not a violent person. He's is really delusional, but not violate delusional. What way thanks the rules do not apply to him thoughts have grandiose thirty. That can never be way Just like I'm gonna make a million dollars, but has signed a case.
capacity now known you know what I mean dislike dreamer, that has all these I'm one of ten children he asked whoa, I now he's been married of bans, do have relationships. the other ten kids are. My sister is one of my best friends ass, her my mother and then my three, I'm very close to three of my brothers, who were all there's three that are very they're, they're, all the same age and their very close, and we ve had a close bond my other better ones in prison ones. Was an attic for yeah Y know. That's why I called the first, tat their blooming in the man and than he explained blooming in the mud, because, as a specific reference the Lotus yeah and then how it archetype. Dleam, Minos, Lotus Flower loaded fire literally can bloom for a thousand years in the media.
one flower had been studying and melodious national fire of India, so you ve had different but you know my no lotus, though you know, then I mean some people and I use that knowledge. A lot of you know some people swoop in from the top of their spiritual can I come in with LULU Lemon and they they work it out. But her cleaner leg, it's a mighty, its painful but not Letty mighty. Is this like back and then there's alive he will who come from the bottom, and I like to explain that an actor pay their way through. You know in a different way: it's maybe it's not that the top the ones at five in the top is not hard. It is There is not nearly as Dearie as if in a better
Obviously it some. Whenever I haven't seen you in a minute- and I forgot how you can talk about the heaviest of stuff in such a light way. How do you I don't know how, but you that I dont know because its both in he spoke that Ike is both. I could crying second hearing these stories are thinking about something to happen to me or my one of my you brothers, I live and then is a part of me. There does see it as leg part of it journey is like some kind of is anti on some Levick. I more than that we all are. It is empty. Some people can understand what you mean by that regularly. It's it's still all a story at this stage. You know it's like it. It's like who I am like, I'm more than the trauma, and I teach us a lot in Oakland cause people. I've queued classes there, we will commoners others chairman's, every and eyes If you say yes, all this is one level of reality. Yes, abuse abandonment
the trail of the worst kind you now and We are more than that We are more than this is just one chapter and that's really whet the masses of that book is about is how to get people to see something. One moment in time. This isn't the whole of it. it worked so much more than that, and that's where I talk about like the absolute and you know this is. Like a star. You know we're like one glimmer one one moment, and so on So I don't know there is a line of people. Tell me that all the time like, oh my god, woman, I'm crying when I'm laughing with you and their treats or whatever you can go to these places, cuz I've been there Other faces are important ago at night, essential to stay. I quit and a man we is it might? What would you say the APS? Look. What do you mean by that? Well, yeah. That's may that centre right where Absolute, I get that would mean
to make reality or lacking. Oh that's. A buddhist term that is a buddhist term, so much is aligned, jargon honor you do. We were ok with jargon, point wanted me. They want it. I guess it's like the level of quantum physics. Like you know, if I was look at this yellow averages. Whatever looking at it, had right, announcer thread. I would if I look on a quantum others, nothing here by moving particles, It seems so seems very solid. Just like our story, the pain honest seemed like, but if I were rare, closely at it. Alright, it's a constellation of memory and emotion. So does de the quantum level of the headphones that are in your hands, you need a microscope to see it with your stories. You need meditation
judges. Railways go you need a he devoutly unease about the whole in that part of my MAC can look deeper than just tell the surface level can penetrate into what People underestimate you, because you come off is kind of like I did right. The first time I wrote I wrote about in my book that I defer some you got up. There were teaching loving kindness of like who is this and and Do you find that people, because you have a light and breezy sort of way? Do you think you think people underestimate you here? I think they do who totally, please you know Jack, cornfield, huge dragon around a lot with him, and I was very young as upheaval will relay Jack, cornfield eminence yeah mentality had all ever. You would be like your teaching Maxine overlook. What were these people I'm so yeah made, are not getting any Agnew come on, come on. bring my speak from your heart you just tell me, and so I take it a lot of people underestimating me and I think that book clarify
my view- is allowed and somewhere fears. Tired is about showing my fear, snares and I think my second book do that's? U that s? Oh my god! I could ten year warrior journey. It is like superwoman stories. I didn't it hard when I when I was writing. It is light while that invokes gonna, be about something you discussed in our first project, which you yeah or which amount to quarrel router it on and Blandy man them not to disseminate. Was my path. Is blending man, it's like how does this actually help this? although not for me, my life's work is going to being bringing ancient, you know Medicine Buddhist was them together. you when you say the monarch, world you're an ancient medicine you two again we're talking about. I was gonna, hear one having my Amazon chauvinism beyond. Just I last guy, I'm talking about an that's my tradition that I come from where I learned amazonian chairman as them the lens a lot.
but then just Iowa case a whole view about plants. Need her healing energy. It's like a whole pantheon of of plants it's under its own world, like it's like Harry Potter, women go looking for you now the size and then the a girl them and the magic world if, like bad, you name is literally, I believe what has happened to me, what I've seen and understand what still in full- then, and so I can do, is what I believe in It's all true in all my true Deanna we're going eat. You know it's all. It's is another story where making up as real as these headphone grey there's another reality, that's as real as that contain a gate it now they had found their here. I can I gave em, so you see I'm crazy stuff under the influence of that of thy wise guy you're, not negating, it is what you say. I thought you think crazy staff working there,
in your then, your dream world in year live in your whole. Why you're freaking out bout about your ego any We were always seen crazies upon retreats. I've dealt with more people, that's the way. Worse than I'll, ask affair money, I'm I am ass. We literally, I start my new book with the red phone, where I grabbed the Red Phonograph I mean you know, ok allegiance to unpack drafting a new book you're about to write the opening as emu. Is you grabbing too? red phone, which is the moon yeah. That's it the insight, meditation society and bury Massachusetts where they have a red phone, premeditated you're freaking out, while on retreat. Yes- and you actually picked it up, that was the opening tat to pick up the phone, and I go. How luckily Gregg Sharp, who a friend of mine was an teacher training, was added. You know at the FAO in ran and garden in our own food and cracked. Hers and tat. We are not
I mean I just everything it was like. I just I was doing Mega John. I never told you, this story I'll, explain it. This is the story. This can be in the next book, its kind, in this one, but I will live or read because its opening chapter, because his where I needed more help them what I could get there. I had surpass the health the half of it was beyond I appreciate it. I was there I needed now moment, but I saw a bigger crack lad. I needed leg, wilder something's broken such a fundamental level that I can on my own, within this particular system, of sitting, silently on my cushion heel, I needed something beyond man and said that it was right that that is paid tell me the story. I wanna hear it yeah agenda, so yes,
Oh, I of course, being one of my special teases wanting. You know the heart practices and I think that's what a fierce heart is about as, like I'm sorry to understand the hard and that's a has suffered conversation, my God paper. I learned the heart, but we can't, let's have enabled elsewhere yeah, but we're just pointing to an energy of something that's bigger than ourselves. You know that's high, like added something. That's so much bigger than myself so much more powerful. So I had done many Threem course says, as you know, at entire meditation the three month retreat three month retreats we just about the world relinquishing I'll phone and you're alive from Oakland leave my colorful community he and enter into right everyone's lacking slowly. It was the painful at times also I care more about a dogma, and now is
That was the most important thing when I was learning and, of course, out of gold seamless, might he tried all those course this? Who is my meditation and who has never come on this punk, yes, but not that I'm bitter ok. Well, maybe he'll hear there's. No. They don't know that he knows he's gotta do is get you wanna, be it says, and so Well, you know doing John. I wanted to do genetic Jonah, so JANET practice is concentration, that is, Gina is a term That means just soup, her concentrations. Orchestrate absorption is another word and so J Age A and a young other several levels, they're kind of these front of my describes in those days interconnected rooms in the mind that you can access. If you get super concentrated yes the really great winners, eight typically eight and most will only acts as the first four to go beyond the first forest kind of like a ghost
Powers must be the only way to barely get. Taiwan must Verily government, a neighbor concentration, is kind of in the above higher concentration, and while I had like an aptitude for for those states, I've had for my whole life, and so I notice that it would be enhanced when we would do matter Pact s because matter practice is concentrated. As you know, intensive and again mega am Ici. is loving, kindness, meditation Yasser like super fide now you're saying Phrase this over and over again, maybe I'd be in peaceful, may, be safe from protected, nor be healthy and strong merely with ease being some variation of that your thing over and over again as yours, witching back and forth in your practice between one session, we're doing John, a practice where you're getting super folks and the breath and then and then another session you were doing matter or were you doing both at the same time in some way I was doing the matter practice as an observer.
Shit packed. I see because that actually is the most powerful doorway, because if you think about it, the the cause of concentration is happiness. It's not as bearing down in our aim that we have like Fraga has actually, though, in the mines happy filled with love and happiness, things happen the mind naturally collects itself its natural radiant natural collect ability. You know one were agitated now mine as this like on windstorm. You know. It's never in a saddle is such an important lesson from editors, because we do think that the way I personally have suffer from this man. Thirdly, what is this as a Taipei person that you know the review grit, teeth and bear down that's the route, but try it it's hours about very and most people, pig of the Red foe because they're doing that yeah right phone as a bridge again point in mind where people just can't try.
If any more and then just going crazy. So So I was doing this gigantic pact. Isn't it was good it. I was working with myself. I had the Dalai Lama is my object, supposing all day review at the Dalai Lama as your object, he was when I was practicing. and he was in the matter pact as you do categories, and to learn how to develop this in all love. You use these categories. You start your solve. You do dear friend, you have a neutral purse, then you have enemy, come on. One of my men retreats dear you're, the first person to teach me this type of practice in two thousand. an hour were nine or wherever it adds. Beer rock sooner and yes for those differ, The uninitiated basically met her practice involves sitting you envision, a series of beings usually star with yourself. He moved to a benefactor, a dear friend,
I've been slipped, my wife in there and then a neutral person, somebody you see but often ignore and then a difficult persons entitled. It was the enemy and then finally, all beings and in each one of these kids, since you sheriff visualizing them, and then Senate's repeating these phrases of may be happy. May you be well may be, may live with ease, and wouldn't you too me this. I thought this is this singular million annoying thing I have ever encountered, but it is other sciences- suggests it works and a lot of personal experience yeah I'm at a retreat that really powerful. You know my last year I did two hats: beer, rock and Sheryl do one we do have met on she going retreat and the first week of December, and it is brutal for people to love. tells the open it. I've never seen I mean if it becomes shamanic people are getting. Having, as my tax, the symptoms of
trying to open to live loving themselves and others this bringing in this matter, energy. It is incredible I mean I've never seen anything. I may we are prepare for these retreats. Now. The managers like ok, we might have taken to hospital, maybe a lotta, throwing up a lot of fevers. I mean words this there is a real matches, You know a hippie talk as science is making No, I mean it has an effect on the body. I wrote that the crying, which is not something that has happened before or since in my adult life come another retreat day and I've been were ready for. Another word turns out. I actually have a proposal for you about. leaving her treats in in a specific way that will we'll talk about off line. But, oh yes, really mean republican types. I'm kidding I'll, get it
either way I mean democratic out there. I there there so anyway, I had when their specific. Cause I wanted to work with concentration I was in teacher training is part of my develop. and was to explore the John Ass to explore absurd. person to explore deeper states of Meda and the burmese tradition, Joseph found, a very effective, tease matter. That was one of his doorways. Also, you know breath body You bet I sell matter, and so I asked him to guide me for the three month course in matter and also, I think, guy, I'm showing two is also helping me. Yes, I had a really big interest in it. I think that for the first six weeks I did content you shouldn't working with breath, and then I move for the second part into work, shortly with the matter any.
During that time, that everything just my whole system when haywire, because happy I mean, but when you say your system when haywire what how okay so energetically this insane ringing has started in my ears Joseph I had an ear infection and they re going to take me to see his daughter. They I mean I was, I was I was a living under water, imagine one he does clicked on it, I'm talking to you, but it's like we're talking underwater. It was scary. I would look at the or in a will look like the ocean, and They were like oh yeah, this happens and dissolution man, so there are using. You know my societies, map of insight, stages of insight. Yet this happens at this. There are looking at. at lie on logistics, money for a second ok see there is Joseph old scene again. My teacher, your teacher, amazing teacher, comes out of
provision that is burmese and they hit Josephs teacher is a guy named Mossy cited and they look back to the ancients Buddhist map or what happens in the various stages of enlightenment, yet one the stages is known ass, disillusionment. Disillusionment, yes, and so, like that's things, gonna go crazy, yeah! You can consult these aims, the tax yeah, I'm fine, yeah, yeah things get really weird and the following ways: it's really detailed twenty, they were able to see that something like you look at the ground, you see water that showed up in the ancient tax. Well, some version of that, where the elements fall out of focus because everything becomes you're. Looking out everything more on the energetic level you experiencing less solidity, you see,
I've decided, Z, well or aid more water, looks like this and that those ground look the ito. Everything cited, but I didn't have capacity to understand you mad, and I read about it to its in this math. They use cut the stages of insight and where that that's the class, a goat, cheese, she'd or whatever you yeah had to be. For without when in amounted to drop, you can run into trouble or you can just endless striving and get on the wrong path bent. So, and then I couldn't even hours nauseated all the time and then I basis, emotionally. It was the most crippling sense of abandonment. It was on. leave her, but it was as if I had no refuge. I couldn't find faith. I couldn't find in any of these qualities that were usually my go to M onwards
it happening was I went so high these Johnny realms that it's a purification. That's been my experience. This love working with Mehta Working these energies. It is beside you step on a gas paddle and I wasn't ready I had all these unresolved trauma and, as I went, so high, and then I crash down into the depths of how emotionally and so were you able to continue practising know, tat became hearted the more I practice, the more this symptoms intensified, so precept even eat anymore. So that night I picked up the red phone I had eaten days. I was about the throw up the floor. I barely made out of my room because I was basically like why Knocking on water in this weird did You know I felt abandoned totally dissociated from my body, either very big danger now at this
ever happened to me. I had too many retreat. I feel like a warrior. I could sit through. All I had to do is be president. I would tell myself that, but this I couldn't be present when it was the first time that I have reached a place or I couldn t with head, Sir Pitt other red phone there's Gregg Anal somewhere on the facilities any runs and gets ginger ale and crackers China trying to bring me down on, but the more I pray tomorrow is in silence the more the intensity of the ringing? Everything was magnifying to stop right. I had sat ads. by AIDS and crackers. That was a momentary. You know you know what They do, they are turn you love encouraging. You you know it's a very Just one thing you might have another show about like these kind of cases where people have too often leave the centre or if our eating meat,
running hours a day in others, our cognitive bring the solidity there's something I have higher cracks open and Some people really have their ability to be with it They don't have a lot of trauma, you see traumas, exploding energy that we through went to a situation is like PTSD rights as something feels how to control and disconnected the mine falls into this car. Verne. Unless what happened to me, I would imagine some five thousand questions. but I would imagine people listening to this would say why would I ever do an intensive retreat if this is on offer a right? This is extremely packing by the three month we're talking about doing. I was diving, Some say that the EU now the underworld and my mind. I was looking to pull out these things. How, out his dignity for it, because it's late, and somewhere didn't, feel free after
while with the meditation what can happen with some people, they can go along a long time and I hit a plateau Dan. They had a plateau where they don't they don't feel like their growing is much anymore. Like when they first meet it. There's a love affair. Right everybody's happy. It's like he first get married ray, I love the Buddha. The Buddha loves me or whatever mind from this was me. I love this and then what happens is that the door to the underworld start knocking and it's like. Ok, it's layers that way killing off here I mean meditation, is the path of purification and purification said. Tell me what you mean by that, while the word provocation than that in the vicinity Magua, which is the ancient text that lays out and leather another grey was on the path to enlightenment, yet which is called the path of verification. ultimately end magua and how to sounds kind. I followed and clarification of the term
I thought you I do love you. Have you ever get scared? They, like it's very religious. Our association have Baluchi fear. Vacation is like eating something dirty clean it your ear it, but it's the metaphor of the the jewel in the Lotus right. It's like we're doing is we are purifying mine of all of its delusions and obscurations I mean I love about the time. I love it somehow that that the Buddha deposited that we're all in line. We just forgot, optimists, dig it is up to Mr. However, we forgot- and not forgetting is a thousand veils a thousand things that obscure that we don't see our true nature. Otherwise, we ve been acting differently. When we have, we all saw are true nature. you know it is in
You say I know your pay sceptical. When is this and make goodness? No I'm not getting over Olga yeah yeah this and make good night but we don't see it look at acting. Look at them, blogs its obscured we can now we can agree that we're not seeing who we really are or who are, who other exactly so so that the purification me Donna highfalutin word is not a religious word is scary, where it necessarily, although everybody has an association with the word, but it means clean to clear. In a way that which is obscuring I figured in the VON context, which is that from I say this all the time, the animated insight of both my personal practice and my public evangelical as him is. He is that the mind is tradable. Yes and so purification is just another way. From my viewpoint, being you can correct me if I'm wrong of thinking
the training of the mine torn away from the things we don't like, like that, that we know aren't good for us. Greed and hatred. Confusion and toward things that we do want, you know happiness satisfaction. calm patients, generosity compassion. That kind of thing, Agatha look: yeah, yeah! rather you rather colored training or clearing or moving or awakening in all these words, are trying to define that clearing process where we will stop, in Saito, masochistic into ourselves and become a part of our mind that what's a move towards more p, much our conversation read after this break brought to you by indeed, used by over three million businesses for hiring where business owners and h are professionals can post job openings with screener questions
then sort review and communicate with candidates from an online dashboard learn more at indeed calm, slash higher There's a lot coming at you right now, turmoil, tweets and insane about of shatter I'm bread milking. ABC News- and I am here to throw you a lifeline to do. Podcast called start here or our exports give you on the ground acts The biggest stories of the day, we're gonna, give you some context. Some clarity among the chaos twenty minutes every week day, subscribe now on Apple broadcast or wherever you get your broadcasts and start here. So how did it go for you after they brought you that after Gregg Sheriff brought you the invasion derailed hurry? I, like hackers, not much better, I mean obviously having contact.
Was helpful in Grey was already my friend. You know we were in the new doing training together for years in, and I trust in him and enemies been hours talking and trying to figure out. Do I say on their retreat or die? Go I had a meeting which Joseph again, I think Joseph, had tremendous confidence in me. You know like you can open, it is spring. Come on your you know, fight it out in their. You know you're in and I and I I don't know had a really articulate how bad I fell in how freaked out fell because I was already supposed they have answers. I was already in this teacher training. I was already supposed to know something so a pardon like a little bit and areas like why am I find no pirate, I carry falling apart. Wait. I offer word so I didn't know that
That's how you were like this, like the senior people and now as a kind of hiding a degree of my freak out from him and guide interesting yeah. I didn't feel comfortable. I didn't understand it. I know know was going on so left two weeks early and went home yeah because I remember calling my sister and thing it's all those following: far as you have get out of here, come the Oakland thinking the environment is killing me. Maybe it was the answer. No everyone slow, walking I or to give back to Oakland, but it did not help when I went home and do not know how did you get out of this law? That led me to seeking How will we talked about in my first interview and where a whole another year We started in order to get back and my body and understand what was happening. All I know is something is wrong and that's how I start the first chapter, the book guzzling some
it is wrong that something was wrong. Let me go back for a second, because this will bring us back to the big. this discussion and to your current book, a fierce heart tat, some of the content of the trauma. What what what had traumatize you I advised me wise. One was gonna growing up early on in a lot of violence. ok? So I think when you grow up around in oversized helicopters- and I was rude and got side- and there was- I know this is then yeah east on reach ran on the cap. Combined little town caught battle flower and waited. How are these gangs, my parents thought all the time and my father was the using drugs judges. You I think than he was. Billy was I cocaine and alcohol. I think pretty myself are always has to have choice and he's cleared
from INA. He doesn't use drugs anymore and alcohol he's. You know changed, but at that time you know he was he had his own trauma. My parents were above. I forgave him a lot because I understood it. How could they not have turned out yeah actually knew better. I think than some people might do so then when so, then we moved around and then and then I got older. I would have these and others like sexual abuse is throwing valid one from neighbour a neighbor when we moved into a new location right cause you kind of a tract. You know once that work and kids get left behind you know, and so yeah There was a lot of pedophiles around where I grew up. If it has a kind of like a weird Energy II, there were two everywhere. I why I would like to know yeah it's kind of sad
Allow me to move men as we see so many people affected by this is this is not workplace sexual. ass many ass. This is the how their sexual abuse that now that's that's a big leap. And no, both you and your sister had to endure this. My sister, not my sister, or unscathed. Shoe is more fearful. I had this very outgoing personality, so I was always around right eye without talking to adult looking around. I was I, I think, even more ah. a real will to that. For some reason, my recycling shy at first time it happened. Yeah I did yeah. I did. I reckon they told there was a neighbour, and I told a lot of people in yeah. I was at its height. The whole thing when he was showing movies how these little kids- and I told everybody idea, but appearances item believing that, first that
I was going was repeated. I'm a few times in again I didn't even have the worst of it more came later, as we got older, indifferent things happen, just what happens to eat. Is a violent, traumatic, and I very sensitive when I was younger, I didn't realize how sensitive I was. All of this is a very clear he is in very a week when I was young. I could like think about things. Look at my ok. This is not right here in our everyday lives, and you know we see this now like this a year, the girl giving a speech. You know like they, our What had I been in a right environment? I would have been speaking out like I was seeing things bad. You know things happen and what happens Tom accumulate and then fifteen. I'm laugh. My mother's house, like every story, I can always see the cause. That's why I would always so way was easy
give them in a way does mean I'm phenomena be around them bad. It was forgivable. This behave. there is passed down. You know this is this is, and how do you break these pad and your breaking a bare yeah yeah? I feel happy about that I do feel like I'm breaking a pattern and well this emerging when, as on their retreat, was a pattern, a piece of the pattern. I was trying to break that I didn't know how to do it. On my own and not moment I didn't Oh what to do. I didn't know what was wrong. knew something was wrong, but I do know how to get to it, because some of these things, dna lever in it? We don't just get our hair color and eye color. We get past sound, hold belief, systems programmes. Well, you know been shown, that when the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors are more prone to anxiety. Yet so this is not like whoop stuff here, spat in here. And this is the kind of work tat I needed to do that, whatever it was like a breaking plain and I had reached,
and on a bus, either my family as mental illness. By it's, it's not. it's not a lineage of enlightenment. You know it's like, oh god, which makes in MID May room bearing for you here He said but makes what you ve done so incredible. Still, incredibly, courageous is one thing for me like me, whose I was born on third a base. There is really no history of with five history, depression on both sides of the family. Things like that but like to super loving parents who loved each other in love their kids, and doctors and really trauma free life. We want things me to dive in two meditations entirely different thing for somebody like you to do it well. Thank you. I mean I love the dogma and love meditation. This has been my whole life nam. Dedicated have been hanging around spare rock since as twenty three you now,
twenty years old your life be like, if you hadn't stumbled into this I've been over some of the time. I was the by what I have no other way, because I was a thinker and I care and- and I want to know what was creating all the suffering. I genuinely have an answer my entire four year, even a teenager in El Salvador seeker I would offend. and what about your siblings? You mentioned some of them arm prisons. Have? How have they generally fair fared? Am, I would say, doing better now my sister Humphrey placed, who has always done well, I mean she's had to overcome a light of her own trauma that she is also aspire to pass. You son, I connect to read although we were very similar. She the inner she's amazing she's two years, the order, and then I have three younger brothers and I think for them their young african american men, you know their growing I've. They didn't. You know my father,
your mother and my father's name Ok, yeah is your mother's white, if I recall yeah, I'm others might, and so, as their mother, interesting yeah by their own tax burden, It had white women alive, but society tags them as young african Maria, because they don't look. Why don't you know they move? They win yeah, failing Brown in our non way. You know even other by racial yeah. They are by racial. So am I because we all have a deep connection to that, but there are still clean and I'm I'm I'm trying to help work with him. My they were very difficult and their mother s, I'm sorry there mother died. So they have a lot of trauma, so my goal is to help provide some stability for them a kind of on their own. In my face, There is not yet his job is done. He's kind of and now to reality, tv meditation will be useful for people in this position
Actually, my oh my rather Lamar's his thirty. He wants a counter meditation until he came to visit me in California for the first time and he came to our centre in Oakland was really into it. I was so shocked, interesting Don't ask about some of the other chapters, and yet I write all this is about all these stories. In a fierce hurt you I mean in your right very well at its that the content of the of what you write about is me. You here was Well, here hear you delivering a kind of lightly, but its shocking there's a chapter called meeting the great chief. What is that one favorites after the then I say that about all of them because they hunted meaning a great chief was when I went on a five month retreat now this was year,
after all this trauma I felt way better. Who is after all, this is three, this very three years after the Red found, as I felt much more empowered place, so I was so tired. I was burnt out. I had all these projects going in Oakland, I thought like. Oh, I just need a retreat, but where do I wanna? Go South EAST Bay Leaf Bay? Meditation centre is our centre in downtown Oakland, which I dedicate the books all that the community there may I now their stories have gone in tat this back here. Now all the beautiful stories redemption and freedom love higher break, as this is a diverse song and every song by the wages. Buddhist jargon for community is diverse crew in every sense socioeconomic yeah neck, etc, etc. The ass we have people than ever- Walk of life. Every lived experience, yes now
until you are burned out, so I was really I've been pending. You know blood, sweat and tears out for a long time and I wanted to go and retreat, but I do know it and go. I read about Christian Colorado at that time. I side of Pakistan with Tibet and Teacher- and I heard about this really beautiful Tibetan Centre, that you could do a retreat just fifty eight people. It was at the foothills of these goals, His mouth needs people only eight people were, which is good re smiling again. It was a tiny little centre. was said. It was in the kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhist lineage and I felt really connected to it and I reached out- and I said: okay, I'm going to go there and I'm going to do to bed style purification practices which was interesting, outvoted drawn. Doing so, is going to do a hundred thousand Pasht Asians, a hundred as in March, has on and prostration vanilla getting
bowing yeah. Getting a lack of funds are mutation, basically a hundred thousand times. Why you and that's why you image you? You take refuge at the same time, taken refuge. Take refuge in year, brooding nature who take refuge in the teaching sat, show you bad and then the saga there, all the people supporting it and those who have lost their symbolic symbol In your mind, oh yeah, taking this is Europe Europe coming home? until this is where you go, where everything else is unstable, unpredictable uncertain, not going, alas. Accordingly, the buddhist teachings, three jewels. These three refugees are the things that are stable. This is where to refugees can be found, an answer,
Indeed, I why you bow hundred thousand times I set myself up in navigated, you ass, a very intense compassion, practice child. You know where I was doing the very you know certain image is and practices and evoking the quality of compassion. So I stay there for two months doing in this little centre and am I want Two. There was a really decided she there was his boot knees as ocean master, who is running the retreat and he was wanted to part of English. With me all the time you have been coming to so happy and then I like I was looking cornered and more and more- and I was talking in eight when a talk until there's, none told me about this cabin why have you any of your real practitioner there's a little cabin way up in the mountains so you can. You know the veil bring you fool in in you know. It's just an outhouse, though, in near you burn work, for he an ice heard that nice take me of their power
I want to go there and I went to this magical little cabin. I mean it no bigger than this room in this. Where were I in a hundred square feet this be about? It was yet in half of that was the alternate, a little fridge operator in that one solar panel on the top five a little late at night, and I went out thing here and I said about- I moved in there for three months, while our dna I remember had so many lofty ideas I was thinking. You know moving over their heads, be so great. No one will bother me it'll. We so find me in nature and I have all these amazing moments, and so, as I was getting a fair and caretaker was crazy, man? One of those mountain people, long hair named John, but he said he's driving his truck down the hill after dropping me off. Is that okay going to be all right? You got your water I'll, see you in about ten twelve days.
He's yo down and I descended into the worst panic I've ever beheld. I went and freedom three months it that's what I I had hours of feed, are all night long. I shook and fear I kinda safe. I just shut all night long and fear and terror. What I don't know a minute it would get dark outside of his eye fell egoism. Prime, all again, I'm gonna use the where purification, because I can understand it in any other contacts I would sit as in I will come I would hear all the animals in another way of their there's a lot of black bears. They were assigned to wake up and any known that things out there. I just I fell at any moment. I was gonna, be annihilated you're the booty used to do to sit in the forest and wait for them Urim and cried out my boy. I was trying to do that. I was trainer and night, that's all. I had had no phone, no computer, I had a stack of Buddhist
books like the nature of reality par won through tat. You know about, as I said, and I will What are waiting for the Netflix version- and I was thinking out, teach myself time to grow up, and I was doing these practices and I would sob and solve hours so grieved came. I don't even know what kind of grief thou, as I cry african Greece, not because I'm half african American by because they were just come out of nowhere and I would just start willing and able to into Manchester now went on all day, wailing crying and all night fear. So after a month, I thought I was literally I'm gonna go insane and then Don dawned on me. The only way to get through this is, if I have compassion so I started praying for compassion come every second, painted tire, quantity and generous egg advocate to survive. These are named for the same energy. You know Jesus marry any possible Gaia, made
anywhere the sky and I decided praying and because I realized without compassion, I couldn't get through that level of purification, but whatever was coming and a clicked. to some other, but I was no longer on the map that everyone else's on we had who went on a net and I Finally, as I knew it was good to do, I have faith it man, I just you know how is gonna be with those kind emotions and they weren't lighting up. It was going on day after day, our that ours and at night, the only way I could sleep at this time, any little bed was. I would put these jobs and cushions behind me have these, like you know, Zacynthus behind me. No, I have as an altar, and then I would imagine that I was there. Were these giant bosoms and then I would imagine being in the arms of compassion, and that is the only way I could sleep now. It just be couple
whereas I wake up in the night at it and keep that vision, compassion to start shaking boosts the great chief in this chapter, compassion, yeah I have always when I came in, I felt like that energy was so profound that I say to understand the Dalai Lama's view on compassion. I signed understand all these great tat. Side of red and these masters who say they were pray for compassion and how compassion was actually so powerful with insight, because it could go to those play says that we would never go. You know I could it itself had its own power. An ice It's a feel that so I started Boeing when I used in my passions and I of going to the great chief compassion I just make named at that I was a great chief or grey priestess, Very good king is like the word chief thou thyself. Without the chief
my left eye calves and I feel whole new understanding, given that really the profundity of the tree, but that you have experienced in your life what traditional medicine, traditional psychotherapy, medication, etc, etc. I do know that I never did. I never took medication, but I'd done, you name it. I did it. I mean I did hollow topic breath were trauma, release rebirth. I did traditional psychopathic psychotherapy. Her periods- and it was very helpful- it would help me undressed. something, but it can help me liberated it's funny, because I've heard the expression that- and I care member who said that psychotherapy bring. understanding without relief, yeah and have thus through the understanding, is a momentary relief. Yes, but it's not a true cessation, it's not an and I would find that right away, because I was willing to go right to the point like I mean like so are our time with a
saying in my bare of beauty time within five months. We were right. You know there, and then it will have to meet and liberated. What you say. Your mission in life is. I mean I don't want to sound like a cliche you bet, I really really really do think his fur battering humanity, s really is for helping people. I really really everyday wake up with that thought of body. Cheetah Divina mare this moment. May this life may this day be for the benefit of others, really feel like that in my writing. As we talk about your email is torture, but it's not for me like suck it up like this, could have some analysis Burke is reaching the demographic that I wanted. Treating communities
I mean I'm sure people are thinking this, but I'm just asking in the in the most selfish way, like I mean at its heart. great to have that b or north starboard I'd. It's not my Northstar and I would like it to be like how does one get. There is my way The morning I'm like I was in the EU. And like I need to be known. doing. I gotta get all this stuff done, and you know when I write a book yeah, you wanted to benefit people, but I also like it to be super successful benefit me too, in my company in blah blah blah. So I dont know, without with I looked anxiously at my motivations, it's all body cheetah. Well, I think bad again, then I think it's a scared.
There. I am acting an innate in you. It's totally amazing you. I know that. Does this gap dig- and I know that I know why you see these other forces I owe of creative. I felt this whenever there my company, I want pancakes and you know all I have left to its mother? That's my bare is it's not that I don't wake up with some of that. Bad, but what really excites me is is, as is helping other people. See themselves very different way and in another they think they can find happiness. They can get better. You thinking in terms of life your life, that is truly motivated by much used? The term but he Cheetah wardens nine help people their religion about seeing that it feels better
that way than to be stuck in the story of wanting pancakes. Yes, I mean that's a selfish motivation, a vacation. Actually, the dynamism is so great to be selfish, agreed cause you that our makes me happy so that high prices that you know it's come. We lay at the end of it David things have made me happy. Are those moments of delay that our people rabbits walking down the street in a class? I am huh, and so on are sovereign. Writes me about my. I read your book is helping me, I'm in a calm, retreat or a filling better about myself, those mom an hour when it's about for me if it was full of Kay glowing of allow that suffering that most of our law, yeah, I'm lookin. Whilst humanity is new, medicated suffering, confuse upset or violate. are some variations? Not everybody bet. It's I mean it's in there that so called be with you, Remind away like you so much
I love you damn near and I feel very, I feel I notes year you you have your own life is still so inspired from. Where I made to where you are now, and I think you're condemned by the end of your life, you gonna see this body with a hundred percent clarity has, I think, every year it's gonna get us the layers of Aragon ages, get more clear, clear, cleared clear, I'm workin working on it, I know you are, I know, and that's what touches me about you. I feel that in your work and your projects in your company, I like I'm, so I feel like I'm proud, MA am I'm not your mom's, a part of it. You are right there to keep up the key moment in reverse retreat It is about us about. How is he It's me any mail ruined every year when it goes back to Spirit Rock is again. This is the place of your great awakening. They put up a plaque
both the EU and the gratitude. Thank you. So much really appreciate is well. Then it was real, great, as always, and I just want to say that I often in Madame such a bad podcast hosts that I can't read people books, but I have read enough of this to heartily recommended it's very brave and very well written. So thank you. Thank you Ok, that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe rate us also. If you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring it hit me up on twitter at Danby. Harris importantly, I want to thank the people who produce this project. Or an Efron Josh cohesion and the rest of the folks here at eighty see who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other projects. You can check them out at every single time, casts dot com. I'll talk to you next Wednesday.
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