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#152: Scott Rogers, Embracing Your Adversary

While working on a difficult case with some particularly difficult opposing council, Scott Rogers said he had a moment during a mindfulness sitting when he realized the way he was dealing with the matter of litigation wasn't reducing that quality of dissatisfaction with that experience, it was contributing to it. Rogers, who has written several books, now serves as the director of the Mindfulness in Law program at the University of Miami School of Law, working with law students and faculty to embrace mindfulness as a way to be less stressed, but still competitive in the field.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier vodka than her generally speaking, lawyers and the public imagination do not generate a surplus of sympathy, but am I sure that fair? And even if you think it fair, bear with me, because I guess this week- who has been teaching my to aspiring lawyers at the University of Miami law. School is really interesting both in terms of his personal story and also in terms of his approach to meditation. So Scott Register come up up first. You call spears number one when it was John, I'm calling from apple daddy in the EU first, I want to say thank you for the pod cat, India and the work that you doing is proven to be very help. And enlightening.
So my question is this: I've been meditating in an established practice for the past seven years, and I went home for the holidays and started teaching. Some family in some friends and realized that I have kind of a penchant for this and maybe even inability so Roundabout way, my question would be: what advice would you give to current practitioners that are possibly prospect? the teachers and want to move into destruction and teach to stop. Thank you. First of all, as awesome these great and one of my biggest fears about the state of the meditation industrial complex right now is that there are enough highly trained teachers, and I said before the Pike Ass, I am of the view, is just my opinion that the great teacher
I have a lot of experience on retreat. Then really you know eighty takes you're gonna get under the hood. Somebody's mind. You need to have a lot of time on the cushion yourself. It's a position of eggs Mary Responsibility in power, and we don't have enough enough of them and in my opinion- and so I am site that you're into it. So I will recommend and bared. Might I come out of a specific I've, I've practice in a specific tradition, so biased in that direction. It will be open about biases? So there are there to places. I would recommend you go the insight meditation society which isn't bury Massachusetts, be a r r E. They have a teacher training programmes.
And I believe- and I dont know too much about this- it may be a failure with or separate from Spirit Rock, which is on the West Coast in were in county. I believe its Marine County North Separatist GO, which is a related meditation centre, and they either both have tea for training programmes or have a joint one, but in any event I would recommend talking to them because they produce an extraordinary number of amazing teachers, many of whom I know quite well because they teach on the ten percent happier abso. I think it's all some which are up to and that's where I would recommend you go to check it out, and anybody else's listening who wants to get into this art was to call never to Haiti and Kimberly calling. I have found that occasion to have an incredible impact on my way
and I want desperately to pass this practice to my children and I would love to have your best tips on how to do this without freaking out my children that have been raised and more of a faith based lifestyle that I am actually starting the question and make a turn about. I've already tried to approach it The one child I have, I think, could use the most, and I have gotten a typical mean girl. What is this? All man be pamby, peace, love, not war, kind of response, and she thinks I blocked my mind, and she also genuinely believe that she's, the one living in reality and I'm not but that's a whole other conversation have a great day thank you hunt and hence to all you the alpha Angelo boy a great day. Thank you have very sweet. I appreciated, and am I've had a minute of thinking? Oh no, it is the same question I get all the time. Oh, I want to teach meditation right, kids. How do I do it? But actually this is it
yours is a really interesting twist because it sounds like your kids are in faith tradition and therefore there some serve baked in hostility to meditations. Are you really just kind of figure out how to pay? this it so that, given their conditioning, they might be open to it, and so, I would say, and this is just my opinion- I would say that you should really depicted in secular terms that this is not about attacking their belief system. It's about right. A secular training of the brain and the mind to be maximally effective, so we all want to have productivity and focus that's operating on the highest possible level so that we can get as much done. I would I would assume that would be attractive,
your children. We all know that we suffer from strong emotions at times and sometimes, as a consequence, do things we regret shaving. Down shaving down our emotional reactivity, that's attractive, I think to a lot of people and I think, pointing out that a lot of well in our society that we admire the? U S: military corporate executives, entertainers elite athletes are doing this not because there in the market for abandoning their core religious beliefs, but because it makes them better at what they do. So I would really position this as something that's secular and that you know if these are people who really care about their prayer life, for example, being able to curb, to a certain extent, the crazy of of their own minds the monkey mind
Well, I would imagine improve their prayer life, so there less distracted and more focused on what it is. They may want to focus so that that's my advice for what it's worth best of luck to you. Let's get to work this week, because this is a really smart person who, I think has let's say: that's. There's gotta be interesting to you, guys, Scott Rogers. He is the director of the mindfulness in law programme at the University of my me law school. He works with both students and faculty and helps them embrace my fulness away to be less stressed in a in extremely stressful environment and in what is a in an extremely distressing. A field of endeavour professionally- this was actually recorded in January. So if there is an outdated reference in here, please forgive us. The reason why were were posting it now is because
the law on the minds of many Americans, as Brett Cavenaugh, is in the midst of his confirmation proceedings on Capitol Hill. In fact, I'm looking at a tv monitor right now and he's on their, so he would go here sky writers. So let me ask you: how did you, how did you start meditated? well PAM about twenty eight years ago, when we were in the law, school environment or she was in law school with you, and I met law school in fact, just months before it was all going to turn into the next aspect of life in the law that is graduating, said we have a meeting with Marty. Peters Marty peers as this extraordinarily wonderful woman who ways the school psychologists, Universal Florida sky.
Psychologists the law school, which is a sign of its being on top of things, and she would always offer students and others tips on reducing Strasse refocusing concentrating in those nice things that I always on how people an interesting and she also was trained by the mahars she in transit modification. So one day out of the blue pamphlet, we're gonna, see Marty. I signed a sap to learn TM and that's how it that that are the formal practice. What a guy set in motion. What we like at that time was, it were used for stress was a reason: PAM will drag, you ended up twenty em and and we'll have affected have on you might have-
it ever entered in the question I loved law, school, ah thrived in law school. I found it to be very rich and not stuff. I did not know. I love the learning process. I'll have my classmates up faculty, so I think that I was not stressed in law school, our relationship with somewhat new, ah, and PAM the relationship which continues to this day. You ve met PAM and I dont know what PAM would say. I'm sure I've chain in many ways, but I dont think I have to ask her. That's a great question, then: why did she I never thought about why it just seemed interesting? What did you notice in effect internally when you started to do it? I wish I was drawn to this idea of turning my attention, inward, and in this case you probably familiar with tee. I may there's your concentrating and
on word right and tundra, a mantra to continue to come back to that word when the mine, wanders or however, that may be in really in some ways tm offers. You know that the promise, perhaps of of other of these sperience, really enriching and deepening in some go throughout the world the island used in any hope of some transplanted sort of way or some are there something that I can capture people with the prospect of really at enriched experience? I didn't really have that so much as the motivating force, but this real interest and noticing and and perhaps narrowing the field of focus around an object. I found that to be quite interesting and I had you, I found that we quite interesting bombing alot of lawyers have a good attention span. You just sit and For this reason, why I am now Lord, I thought about it: a horrible certain offence actually offence and it seemed horrible
but so I can imagine why a mind that would be good at law. School would enjoy locking in our and seeing her way you could focus on that's interesting. You know, I think, a lot of people from your lot allow students and a lot of attorneys we'll talk about how just how busy their mind is. How restless the mind is how see and a lot of people will this idea. People say I may d d or I may be able to hear that all the time in and outside of so that you may be an aspect of the ether several of the moment in and just the way things are moving. What you're saying is very interesting. I do think that there is something out certain aspects of the lawyer, mind, locking and on something. I think there's something to that. I dont think that that canvasses the law, though broadly some yes, not all for me, maybe maybe I think I've always had a fairly good ability to sort of stay on top of things, but but restless as well
Did you find that doing this practice was useful for you in your in your life and your relationships? Did it make any difference whatsoever idea? stay with it long enough as the practice. I think what happened was we learned it? I really enjoyed it. We practise debt payments practice to together a little bit. We went to Marty in her husband, Dawns House where we would set in practice in maybe with a small group Marty by the ways. Does a lot of interesting stuff with, I think tm in its larger aspect today and ah, but there wasn't a lot read about it. I was hungry, I think, for learning more about this introspective attention all orientation and I began to read what I
but find which back and ninety ninety ninety one wasn't times less. I couldn't find times and that led me to a couple of books on Zan led me to Alan Watts, led me to arm some interesting. Even when we talk of religious, it was. It was a catholic priest who had become a then practitioner and wrote a book on it. I found that to be helpful for instruction, like learning about more of a less mantra, oriented practice, and then in short order, it led to mindfulness, which became the one, the practice that really took hold and when you say mindfulness in this context, are you referring to secular mindfulness, or did you learn mindfulness within a buddhist content at first the books that I found on mindfulness
books written by technology on he hates museum. Mastery is a wonderful voice for mindfulness, a wonderful way of I think, speaking to it simply and beautifully, and there were just some books. If I went looking in bookstores, he had bucks, I think Parallax Press had published bunch and they just kept coming out faster than I could read them. Another one was coming out and he tended to at least my experience restate Basic fundamental insights, and so you would read another book and really re read something, but it would resonate and reinforced. So he is that you said Vietnamese and from the buddhist tradition, and so I would say at my early readings and then, as the journey progressed, a sort of engagement, wise whither, the buddhist psychology and teachings I so funny what you said about Signal Hon,
restating the basic propositions of my promise. It doesn't really hammered home the point that we can hear it read it practice it a thousand but we still need to hear it ten thousand more times because something it runs counter to that. To the way we operate, in other words, mindless Leah, that to do this message of waking up breaking out of Ottawa We just had an all in all of its aspects. That's what I actually view is. One of the functions of his part cast is to just have a weekly waking up party a reminder session. It's it's not dissimilar two in some ways why you go to church on Sunday yeah it's really interested. Member years ago, another person very early on that really influence me and to this day, I'd I cherish his voice is wrong dos,
and I remember one of Romney's. I learned about him. He just visa former, Harvard Professor get fired forgiving asset to the students. They like that and then went off India studied with a hindu master changes and around us now lives in a way that is- and I think he got fired for being both researcher I was recently LSD and later research that was that was that was okay back then it may be sort of having a resurgence in some ways, but wanted to be both researcher and subject that that's right, that that, that that's right he's an extraordinary. If you can listen, you probably have a baby. If we listen to Rome, dost talk and articulate things. At least I was just
on an and also he I think early on was very interested in getting out of his head right, the voice in the head. They speak about so beautifully and then in time I think, emerge it with the realisation. Also it was deepening his connection of the heart and I think that's where he his own lease, my tracking of him and perhaps myself as it connects that sort of move into that sphere of really hard opening embrace a may be being the key in many ways to unlocking so much, and I find him to be really wonderful to learn from any one of the things he said he what he began by saying something like there's, nothing, I'm going to share with you all that you don't already now it's that we tend to forget. So, let's here we are have come together to remember, and I think we did not hide when you read over and over and over and when you share, when you interview people and here the same and very similar pieces of wisdom yeah, it's like it is run so contrary to something that is this important
gap, and then we fall asleep again. Let me honey, I'm on a phrase you just used is one of those phrases. That's a bit of a red flag from me but I think there I think I know where you're going within. I just would like to hear you unpack at heart, opening embrace you for me as a bed, a dedicated, anti sentimentalists phrases like that. I'm always serve basing my interlocutors about you know what that means yet you used it. So what do you mean by it later it's interesting in the law, for example, which is a very adversarial system by its very nature like life, is at they're right at in many ways and the law Is by design an adversarial process that perhaps it temps down on what it might otherwise be if we didn't have the law, and so this, this idea that the other is the enemy, like the other, is a threat that there is a problem and the other, of course,
if we are really if the voice in our head is really calling the shots and we're not catching that voice, then everything is the other and that Not necessarily correct, at least is not correct, even at the simple is most superficial level that the threat that we presume that this person represent is in fact the threat that they actually represent. The stories we tell ourselves- and we hear ourselves really can make it so much more of a of distance than it actually is. I think for me that heart opening embrace on the I'm a hand is an opportunity to realise that were much more connected. We ve got we're in this together, even if it's a even if it's a case in your ear on opposite sides were still seeking justice and we're still gonna go home to our friends in our family and just we were doing the best we can
and its challenging and there's a lot of confusion. On the one hand, at the most superficial level, Dan I'd say it's realising that we ve got more, turn on together than we think and were not quite dead, the threats that we take each other to be, and we don't have to he is guarded and as stressed as as that leads to going a little deeper, I think it speaks to. I think it speaks to this this. This recognition that if we can really tame that voice and our head, not forget it but really size it up and befriend at where? Maybe that's not a word, you want to unpack really blow uncle with ok, good, then there's, this letting go of something that was never real in the first place and end the end and the feeling of connection which is not touchy, feely but is actually inherent in the sis. In which we find ourselves. We realise- and it is it's a game changer. But how did this play out and
the? U. At this point I am you're young lawyer, you just graduated you're reading all these books by tick, not on which probably not super common in your profession, especially at that time, but you're you're, you're, actually practising the law, died at all what you? What? What for you'll tell us what context you were in a how did that did at play? The use find yourself now giving big house to people in the different side of a case like how did this hard opening raise pointed out in your legal practice? Well, yeah. Why practice commercial litigation So there is an entire started that tough, with a wonderful firm with wonder for people who, by the way, we are very interested in talking about mindfulness, because that was when I was firmly in this mindfulness sort of approach to tiptoe contemplative Brad
This love talking about the mind moving into the past and regret and doubt blood talking about very interested in insightful about the mind, moving into the future and inside it Saturday and then, when it came to practice that it do that, didn't teach your point. Even your new said. I love what you said your book, the first book, ten percent happy. It is extraordinarily brilliant buck if you deleted justification and a basis of tat sort of explore? Mindfulness there you have it, you haven't. I use that book in class. I think I've shared with the students love it. We read it. I have them put together a little chapter of their own or low their own story at the way you because it so it is so interesting and helpful, but this practice is elusive, which is why your next book, the current book, I think, is really important as well so. This journey me for me that would stay the early nineties when it when I began to practice and become interested in. For me, it was a great deal reading. It was reading it was reading. I didn't have a teacher. I wasn't a Florida. I wasn't I
married or just gotten married and practice in, and I do so what a constitutional clerks with judges, which they lead to the law, firm and commercial integration, and it was just busy- and I found a lot of my spare time- I was reading books on my for us and if the game changer for me was when I was in a song God, this is of a tick, not Hon sort of suggestion that people start these. These groups, these mindfulness group than we had one in South Florida that I on the beach my rebuke, said I with a wonderful friend, now your sailor who just opened her home to people to come, once a week for an hour and a half to two took to read about mindfulness and sit in practice. Mindfulness than talk about the experience so for many, here it was this a student reading and learning, and I wouldn't I would say that there was no heart opening early on. There definitely was.
In ways that, by the way, weren't always so seemed didn't go swimmingly, as I hope they it'll, be with my wife and have her say something that was probably quite right and all that, but I was resisting it and rather than react and have it turn into a fight. I was quiet and listened and then she said we Why are you so quiet? So it is a website where I was like, but I am quite. This is a good thing. This is a step in the direction which she bellowing, keeping up with her meditation practice, no pain. Brilliant at pointing me in the direction of what you intimated earlier it'll be helpful to me and helpful to her and then and then going off in doing something entirely different. So I'd say there was a gesture, of really slowly and may be, but surely stepping more and more in the direction of being a little bit less reactive, a little bit me We are aware, and then of course, having
but fall away and becoming reactive and not aware, and then having that be the very stuff that help me become a little more. Where, in a little bit less reactive for years- and I would say, was probably helpful to the relationship that was helpful to me in your life. Does it stuff with wonderful children and then left and then aren't and parents getting older and friends passing away and things I think that the practice has been helpful at at creating you no more alive and connected in aware me and I'm and then in time. I think they're probably was a bit of time into this. When that hard opening embrace, I beat something began to shift, and it wasn't. It just happened. So when you say you begin to hug people for that. That is something I think is nice do that, but it can't. I can't do it on purpose, but would it wasn't like you were still? I don't know if you're still doing commercial embrace a commercial litigation with you, a brace cambric happened, but would you know
I did that. How did that change your relationship, either in your own mind or in real life, to the people who work for nonsense purposes. Your adversaries right. Ok, you made me think of something. So so again, the sort of I think that the heart opening embrace, Talk, I'm the say ten years or longer tv and began to kick it in a way that I felt towards the adverse quote adversaries,
I remember when I was. We were had a very difficult case with opposing counsel, who is extremely just just unbelievably unbelievably difficult case, unbelievably difficult, opposing counsel and his client, and it was one of these cases where you're so sure, you're, right and you're, so sure they're, misrepresenting and- and I and I think that was correct and and and and and but we all have our protect on things. I remember having a conversation after some hearing or something and the posting I was so like my feelings, cuz I'm staying at my heart. I feel my heart racing. It was just so unbelievably frustrating to want to to be feeling like you're being treated unfairly
things are being misrepresented and you're having a difficult time setting the record straight, and I sat and I practiced that was the time to practice. So I remember sitting and I did up up a mindfulness practice and somewhere in the middle of the practice. I had this realization this insight that I was contributing to the suffering That, even though I may well have been right now the less the way I was responding in the com. Safe. The way I was dealing with the matter of litigation- I was there was resistance. And there was that that that I wasn't helping making. I wasn't reducing that quality of dissatisfaction with expense. I was contributing to it and that to me was. I am a realisation that we're all in this together and me to show what what what could you
I'm just curious what this, because I think, a lot of people I'm honing in on this, because I think a lot of people will grant talk about this with you teaching mindfulness in law school context, but a lot of people worry about meditation. I still had some levels have my moments a word about a to that What does it mean if Europe in in a competitive context, which the law certainly is and in many of its aspects, if not most, of its aspects? What what is it? How do you take this stuff into professional life when there is a certain amount of, vanquishing that often hits theorists by ear endeavouring to to to do well. You know, I don't think that being present being aware being alert hearing what actually beings,
add, letting the person whose talking, no matter what your relationship to them and no matter how hostile your relationship may be in terms of a legal matter, letting them finish what they're saying having them feel that you ve heard them. That would be not notch. Hang it up to another level of hostility, actually hearing them a little bit more than you might otherwise having people in your men to your. Collaborating with be able to more mean please say wait a minute here. Let's talk about what really may be going on here, your share in Salzburg has at nice phrase that mines, which is being able to tell the difference between what's happening in the store you're telling yourself about what's happening. Everybody's got a story about what's happening and of one person can sort of offer a little nugget of of what actually taking place. That can be really helpful, so that doesn't mean that you don't forcefully pursue and
times emotionally and energetically, engage because that's responsive to the call of the moment and and and and and do what needs to be done. But it does mean you're doing what actually called for to be responsive you're, not overdoing it answer not under doing at both of those would be sort of equidistant from that that response of point something that that Damn doesnt serve that this situation is well well said. The judge you remind me of sending us Elsa share in Salzburg, has said Sharon for the uninitiated is eminent meditation teachers but on his pack has many times
She says you can compete without being cruel, ass, essentially centrally weight in some ways. Where describe that's right? That's right, I went there is a poet or some basic tweet, a person as you well just hold them in your heart, said to get to your heart, opening embrace treat a person as you well like, as you must, but don't lose that sense of connected next to them as a human being, who, just like you has a life that began is going the challenges in the struggles and sadness as in the celebrations and will end- and I dont forget that and that's that's something you feel not something you know just in your head.
Again well said, so you then went on to join a faculty Universal Miami LAW School where you are still an you teach my fulness to lost it, and so, when you first proposed this idea, what kind of looks did you get a fortunate thing? Was I've tried not to propose things I dont know. I try not to propose things because then I get it. That's two wanting to happen or have just been very fortunate, so I was at affordable convention. I had my little table out sort of mindfulness bow the lawyers brain was this workshop. I was doing I wish people were walking by and give me the glance you might imagine or commenting on this looks really interesting and JANET Stearns. The dean of student at the law school who had recently joined US dean of students said this is interesting wellness.
The big part of what really matters in the law school environment. Do you think you could come into this mind from this balance and the lawyers brain for lost it? And so I said shore and if it really was alive change for me, because I was not anticipating going into law schools and I went and taught this class. This voluntary class in fifteen students signed up eight students vanished, called mindful and balance in the law, student brain and those that finnish liked. It, unfortunately also
doing well, so that it also spoke well, although I think they were just extraordinary students who have they priests elected in a nice, whether done while no matter what, but that lead to, then me going in talking at orientation to all of the students and when I did that a hundred and I think twenty signed up so we had three classes, the next master or the next year rather, and it just sort of went from there and then, two years later, the dean, a new dean came Trish White, and she said this is really important. Let's make this a part of let's grow this and then eventually in two thousand and ten. So let's make this a programme to really just with various there. The faculty and administration supported it that use the students were responsive. That's that's everything.
And it just sort of has grown on its own and I've just been lucky that sort of be there for you at this point, as it were an integral part of the curriculum, warlike dirty used. Is it a requirement? It is? It is an integral part of curriculum in the sense that there are now classes like mindful ethics mindfulness in law. Mindful
ness and motivating business compliance with the law, a new class, I teach mindful ethics with wonderful, dear friend and collaborator GIN Chicago S. I teach mindfulness and motivating business compliance along with a wonderful colleague Rob Rosen. Ah I teach mindful leadership of the wonderful colleagues were cut. My testes are wonderful collaboration to sort of an enlarged and our collective understanding of mindfulness in the ways that we can share it and mindfulness. Michael ethics is a part of the pr curriculum into students have to take a pr professional responsibility class. As you can imagine, ethics is pre important for lawyers to walk out and and have an understanding of awe and its required. But there's a handful of wonderful offerings in the pr Arena and Michael Ethics is one of them I see as do. I think I know that
you may have just answered my question in your last answer. Lawyers are not super popular in our culture, so why should anyone care whether they're happy but interesting? Why should anybody care why their height? Why? Why should we sit, and why should people be please hear that lawyers are learning mindfulness, but, first of all I think it's it's it's. It's unfortunate that lawyers have the reputation they have. I think it's often times deserved that you know it's a curious thing. You know if you go way back in time when there was a state of nature right before laws, it was like you know, life is nasty, In short, yes, yes, yes, obscene, yes exactly and down, and then something happened it we got this rule of law and something extraordinary emerged, which was debility out of the chaos, some clarity,
a reliable way to interact with each other and move things forward- and I should just that that was a mindfulness expression unfolding wisdom in compassion coming out of the state of nature and lawyers, the stewards among others and judges- of that and now we have, it were anxiety and depression and suicide. Thoughts and suicide which run high across our society, runs especially high. They say among lawyers, and so I find it very poignant that those who are probably the stewards of holding steady in the midst of enormous conflict in anger and resentment, and frustration and unfairness are the ones who are suffering. In many ways. So I think that if you that's, why I think there's something about caring about
our society and those who play the role that they play, and it's not easy for lawyers. It's it's it's! It's not easy and the profession is suffer probably that it's been going on for a long time, which is why this noble profession could, when we look back about of of the great lawyers and judges into very noble perfection, even to this day and those who have relationships with their, where's that have been so helpful to them in their so many that are just doing amid the clinics that we have in the law school unjust to be helpful to people in need. It's really extraordinary. Yet challenging. So why would people care? I think that you may have just answered: ok with it, but God go ahead. I want a directive, we will I be because it helps it it's it helps cause because we should we could we we should care about each other if we had and an did lawyers
and members legal profession hop help me if, if they're not doing well, we all suffer gather polarity integral part of the system that we, require in order to have the society we want? Yes, what is it on in the law that that suicides and depression anxiety
here to be elevated in professional. You know, I've heard have colleagues who who share, who share? Who talk? Who teach my colleague to teach mindfulness to lawyers, have a wonderful friend, Judy Cohen in the Bay area, and she I've heard her say that the lawyers we are problem solvers and were really good at problem solving. We are competitive and we like to stay on top of our game and we are perfectionists dick. We like to get it right in these three things serve our clients well serve as well, when we're doing our job, but if we can't modulate for can't turn down the dial on problem solving there were causing. Looking for the next thing, that's wrong, whether were at home with our family, with our children out just relaxing. If we can't toned down that can.
I've never than theirs threats everywhere, whether an overall stating those threats and if we just sort of calf to keep going through that document again, because your goodness of somebody find a misplaced comma and were shame by that. Whatever that may be, we just keep going, and I think that the thing that serves lawyer so well can become the thing that that just answers the question you asked about why and and and South Florida we ve had just recently a bunch of extraordinarily wonderful in kind and brilliant attorneys in their lives, die by suicide and has just been a very painful painful thing, and this is happening again throughout all of society to be sure, but the students lawyers and and and an end when it happens, it's a wake up, call to a lot of people, because a lot of HANS Hinkel essay had no idea, or I really thought that they were managing it. So what are the biggest thorniest most interesting issues that you
counter teaching mindfulness in this context, which one would imagine will be a reasonably hostile environment. I think, be but would fascinating is, is that people are very interested method. Now, it's even easier because of wonderful books like yours, and what's going on in terms of just talking about mindfulness, it's easier, it there's out, there's a greater. I think me to keep clear on what it is and what is not, because it is its becomes more more popular, wonderful things aren't mindfulness, but wonderful things can be confused with mindfulness are taking a bubble, Beth like taking a bubble back. No one can take up about mindfully us, but my dumpy is as much fund as you thought of Does it does rightly dates right lightly right the fund that life really offers us might not be the young, the heightened level or could be better I mean really just don't know me, but as soon as you are open to sing
what's happening in your in your mind and body, you might be interested in surprise surprises. We are continually infer, surprises and it'll, be it's nice when we get to that stage where we are not surprised, because we get that it's always changing and the direction is heading and and all that stuff that life is deeply about. I think that how a cow can I take this thing that I'm drawn to, which is wanting to be happier and more balanced and have a less stress time, of it all and still tat still to stay competitive. To your earlier comments, that's the thing you hear them, that's the thing I hear at the most and then people are relieved when they, when they get that the two are not antithetical, but they actually support each other, but it does take
a little bit of seeing the larger picture and an understanding more deeply. What mindfulness is to get there? It's both those things its having problems, first, understanding, what meditation ism isn't so it's not least in my foes efficient, isn't sitting on a mountain top in allowing cloth and listening and yet it is, but it s also seeing the bigger picture, which is that, as you said before you can, see the humanity in your competitors whilst still competing. Yes, that's right in and not lose touch of the humanity within yourself right, because the two probably run in tandem together as you lose sight of it in the other you're losing touch of it within yourself. An issue can maintain that awareness in the other. You you you, you cultivated more fully in yourself, so you ve written a bunch of books, but you have a new one. What's the new one called him? What's it about? The new book is the elements
mindfulness and it is drawing upon the elements of nature, in particular the tree. The wind clouds, this done as for primary elements and then to other elements. In a very special to both learn, what mindfulness is for those for whom its new and then to be able to use whose our connection to nature and are an hour and continual, merchant in it as an opportunity to wake up to have it, reinforce the cultivation of mindful awareness and the book is very much in the service of ways of doing that. So say more about how this would actually workmen South Florida. While you do have beaches, which are, of course, natural alot of people spend their times. In their cars in their offices, maybe in their backyard a little bit. But so how do you get people to get in
with nature without it sounding like sort of an empty bromide? Well, what's interesting, is that what you mean when you say getting in touch with nature, so, for example, there for each of the elements and the elements that were chosen or which are because no matter where you are in the world, your nowhere near a beach, for example, and I feel very fortunate to to live on the beach unit less have these elements at the ready you by the window, whether your drive, in the car or you're sitting in your office, and you will see tree and you will have the opportunity to one. Are the other be reminded of something important because that they element is right there if you are primed to notice it if your prime to notice it so, for example, their free to the element, as it does to ways that one approaches the elements as one develops, their relationship to mindfulness doing and then the being so, for example, when one sees a tree and they can be in a book because it
we are book that allows one to practice just by looking at imagery when one sees a tree, they just their posture when one feels the breeze or here's the breeze. They take say three brow slower? Deeper browser you're instruction, either the instructions and, if you think about most meditation practices to be sure and really a growing body of mindfulness practices. It will often begged began with something like bring yourself into a comfortable seated posture, upright and stable, where there's the tree. Take three slow, deep breath. There's the wind then move to the cloud, and this is something that sort of a bit of a little bit of an innovation in the book. Would the doing practices to to think to yourself This is a thought, actually generate a thought in your mind too, that you can begin to you get. You can begin to realise that, just because rising your mind, doesn't mean it's true. True. Exactly in fact,
The original version, the book I had it where, when you saw a cloud you would think to yourself. This is not a thought. The idea being that what could be clearer that a thought is not true then, if you're thinking this is not a thought, but a lot of, people who get it were like. I dont understand that, so I figured what will save that. I didn't understand to explain it adds its good, though it's so you think This is a thought. So you hear that to a primes that that awareness of the content of the mind and then you also smile, and you think again, but you there's a feeling that accompanies it. This is a feeling and you sort of see if you can tap into that, that slight up left of a smile and then you frown- and you think this is a feeling has again. It is just a feeling- and you see if you cant- connect with the maybe a little bit of a drop in mood which was Jews
She caught well for the due note, the doing practice, yeah yeah an end because it seems slightly impractical. It's a lot of clouds correct, but to begin a practice. So when we get to the subway, mindful sunrise, if we get to that, it would be. That would be a specific practice in that the way you start is there's the tree. You a gesture posture. There's the when to take three slow, deep, breaths you this is just the beginning, so you think the thought smile. I feel the feeling frowned feel the feeling and that all takes seconds and now you are you're gonna come back to that in practice, but you ve generated it to start the practice. And then you move to the vote that the sun, the sun is awareness, but as a doing practised the sun is warm.
Spreading warmth. So then you would in the Spirit of ARM Chairman Salzburg. You would bring someone to mind and wish for them. While may you be happy, he spread warmth and then you would bring it to yourself. So very small, loving, kindness practice. May I be happy so that would be, the doing practice working through the four elements for primary elements, and that might take thirty seconds forty five seconds you could take five breath, you could take fewer breaths, you could do the whole loving kindness, routine of not just may be happy, but the others as well. It depend on the person in their own interests in relationship and then now that the sun is out and the sun is awareness you now come back to the tree and now it's aware of the body, and it can continue their with just a traditional awareness of the boy
practice, where you can then move to the wind, and now it's an awareness of the breath practising stage right. There's a four people practicing for a very long time there there and now the practice continues as no special patrolmen success. Razor anything complicated about it or it could be then move to clouds and now you're aware of thoughts and feelings that fundamental practice or then it can move to itself that when the sun, where its aware of bare attention, choice, this awareness just this open field of awareness, so that using the elements really is a for a beginner or for somebody during a long time. It can be refreshing to sort of really connecting them when you're outside and your wife. A king and often you see a trade, might stop like the students in the class this week. There instruction is, when you see a tray outside just once a day at most a few. This too much just stop and be aware of the the body I gotcha so that work.
Confused. So this is a mixture of sort of in vivo during your life practices? So you see a tree. Maybe once a day you give, you know you, the your posture, noticed your posture same thing with cloud son wind, but it's also as a formal practice that you can do that organised around these concepts. That's right! That's right, while at the same I am not trying to add anything to the rich body of contemplative practices, particularly mindfulness tradition, that are already there given that there is there are all these sort of how to meditate books. Why? Why this? Why now well one other thing They think it offers, as this was born out of my own early experience, that just happened fortuitously when I saw it three one day and while I was dry
am. I just really saw that treat like something very nothing to esoteric, but just something it was a meaningful experience, and I realise that that tree that I just happen to chance upon was the queue that woke me up. So there's yazoo. I share it as what are called hung. She waited practices that you can just be out there during the day and if you spend a little time reinforcing these images as really just a doing were being practice that are fundamental to contemplative traditions. Already, then, when you're outside you want just pass every tree with your mind, lost in thought, periodically, or you will have the breeze blow by you and Greek lost in thought. It might actually create the opportunity to wake up and in that waking up- and this is in the spirit of Tick, not Han, for whom, as I shared with you, I was deeply moved and touched in and learned a great deal this
her being right this. This idea that the trees are the all around us and we have this body this. I do that the wind is all around us, and we have this breath this idea that you know things then go. We have this mind the idea that the sun is there and we have this quality of warmth and compassion, and also this capacity to really be aware. I I don't think it's it it. I don't think it's it's a surprise that there is this connected ness between this impermanent thing that you and I wonder, fleeing, are here embodying and in this world around us. I think that all sounds actually quite useful before I left them, I'm sensitive to the fact that were almost at a time but before we- and I know you also written a book about parenting, so I have a three year old. Your kids are older. What what kind of wisdom can you drop on me in terms of dealing with they three over yet
yesterday he was I'll. Tell you what I did and you tell me if this is right. There he's very test with mother as well. He should be she's great and daddy's. You know I'm around, but not I travel a lot. I work a lot, so I'm blessed Then she is sure she he took an app yesterday. She snuck out to do something and ay, she said you can forget when you accept- yeah. She wanted me to wake him up. If you want to sleep too long and she said is probably the unpleasant which I would have known, but so I welcome up. So you don't like that and then being his mother was around cleaning and wailing for a good long. While and my approach was to be like our use, how you feeling we can tell me how you feeling is like I said I serve it's, ok to be set tell me more about that. I'm sorry should have just room out on it and hugged it out and a bit. Then we cry again who talk again, so that was my move, not knowing.
About I haven't read much ram, read read that book wrote he wrote if I read the book the junk habits inroad about them very kindly sent me. I have not done a good job of reading books about marvellous and parenting, so I just kind of did that that's right you. What did I miss? I think it's beautiful, then I think that you you're simultaneously speaking, something that really important, which is that we can read forever, we can t, learn and regions, Orson remind ourselves of the things that we already know or you surely been practicing for a good while and very seriously, and with a lot of heart and a lot of intellect when those moment arise, we spent we can rise with them, and I think that what you just shared actually, with that idea of being there and resonating with his emotional state so that he was not alone in it and you weren't
Invalidating are saying no, let's be different than you are, but you sort of put a big hug him and said I'm here with you, and I think that that's he's a very lucky little boy, it's funny as I was thinking about all these lofty thought to view of creating a safe, contain for your child's emotions and irish recalling all as it always has happened. Recalling moments where I had no strong emotions as a child in my parents created the or mention container, but none of that is what actually got him to calm down. As when I hear some keen want it was a but do things about that, first of all, good good key, while good good job, yet it with but also for when the book mindful parenting, was not about what to do in situations with your child. It was how you, as a parent,
in the words of Rome does create a spacious, resonant environment so that when your child wants to come out and play to be themselves, there's nothing inside of you. That's gonna keep them stock, and so so it's about ash showing up and what we can do to be Mindfully present what will say more about that was a what? What would it be the Adobe inside of me that would there would squelch something that my child is hoping to express ha. That's it. That's really important question I'll offer something. Just I don't deal well with, and I dont say this is this is one of my one of that one of them be flaws that I'm aware of that, I am just trying to be work with more skilfully Somerton. I have a bit of a negative reaction to operate.
Shows an emotion displays of emotion and my son is very prone to them these three? So I don't know if that's gonna be how is as a person but definitely does is, is Tyler and I can feel and internal, but I try I very much try to bring my practice. The baron unaware try to be aware that that's happening and not let that make me do something that would be. You know, sir, caring for him, but is that what you're talking about when you're talking about something internal to the parent that could emerge? That would squash where the child is trying to express or my off on the wrong for attention here now. I think that Europe is quite right and your honor. Tangent and you sort of answer the question. I think quite beautifully that you asked the what is it inside of us that can have them, duck they get angrier. They get upset, they do what her child
as whether we are participating in their distress or because not doing what they like or they're just experiencing something, and then we get we become angry with them because their doing it in public and were at the mall or we become I'm sad because our child is in distress and were feeling that distress or we become in some way in a state that resisting what they are expressing and that resisting, if we don't, as you really wonderfully put, it notices observe and find a way of being o in the midst of that which is its own large lesson and practice, then we will not respond in a way that, We know those moments is apparently in what we do is like some have quite right, not me giving them the lie pop they want, but but being therefore them. Even if you know it's not a perfect ma,
and in the way that would like everyone to be happy when it's over or not or not, and then we can perhaps look back again Harris Denham Steagall has a nice thing about, there's always ruptures in relationships, but we have the opportunity to repair that I'm a big believer that the repair creates the larger opportunity not going through and having no ruptured. It is interesting that I was not the person he wanted to be with fright, and so he wanted his mom and I was at his side. Is it not for my about, but you Joe, you chose well the version you you chose to spend your life where this has anyone so right? No, no! I don't I thou existential stuff about. Might this data marriage. I raised I just about the quality of human beings You yourself that there have maybe they're not her but a wood even though I was in the money, one of their just, allowing him to feel what he fell can tell him. So it's totally find it besides. It's ok to be said,
Then he wanted a wanted. When I offer my hug, which I thought he wasn't gonna want, because he he was reversed by my present He actually really wanted who was an interesting it was interesting to watch that all play out. Ok, so I'd like to and on this completely unoriginal thing that I've come up with, which is what I called the plug zone. Had I want cause. I love I want to give get because by it anybody's reach. This point the he's. Gonna want to know more about you, so you just tell us every book you ve written, where we can find you on the internet, where we can find social media that you may or may not be involved in give it all to us. That's very kind. But let me say that since our time togethers coming to and here first to plug what you're speaking to, let me say, at this moment, then, I am really feeling gratitude to you.
For all that you ve been doing, but also in this moment that I'm here with you and that we ve had this, conversation. I know that in a few minutes I'll be walking at the door and you'll be getting on with your day and what will have, but will this time have will it have been faded away? and when I walk out the door and I held an oversight, thing well, I just be get a cell phone call and in an aid- and I'm attentive to that. In the waning moment of our time. Let me say thank you and I am, hang out you'll. Let me share with you as part of an answer to your question, if, if anybody can I take anything that I certainly have contributed in the books and talk about it? It's. Why where you find yourself in this moment, if there's a person sitting across from you as you are me to really be there for that person,
If that something that we bring into. We don't need a book for that and yet that's one of the most elusive things to really be there, So I wanted to share with you that I'm as it as much as I can be, I'm here with you- and I am deeply grateful for that and to all my teachers who have in things that I've read or people I've gotten the good fortune to learn from have helped me the old that, because it did not answer the. Where would have been twenty some years ago to your first question, the first book was mindful parenting. Another book that shortly followed was mindfulness for lost. It wants a related book. Is the six main solution. That's a book mindfulness for lawyers. Those two books to use language of the law like justice becomes allow the moment to be, as it just is,
yo, clever ways of playing with the language of the law to remind us to wake up in the middle of our day, in the work that we do. Another book that followed that I collaborated with is mindful nets, professional responsibility and guide book for teaching LA professors about how to introduce mindfulness into their curriculum and the most recent book that you very thoughtfully allowed us to tackle a bit about Cosette. And I am grateful for that. Is. The element of mindfulness, which introduces that particular methodology and website social media? We were aiming website so that Instagram that now that them that they are that book, the element of mindfulness teaches a method called the so be mindful method from South Beach. So it has a play on that, but really it means Gonna be mindful Selby, mindful like don't make it more, complicated than it needs to be, but of course it does take something so there's
Instagram so be mindful, which has images of trees and flowers and such sort of serve. That purpose A website so be mindful dot com. I have a website got Rogers DOT, com, things like that and then at the law school we have a m in fairness website and also my collapse. My wonderful dear friend and partner collaborator me she saw at the mercy of Ma- am I May we have eight, the? U mindfulness, which have been kind enough to come down to ensure with many you're you're you're you're, you're insights. We have a well mindfulness stop I am a dvd and she has done on this, but just ass. She was very special. Thank you very much for doing this. I really appreciate a great job. Ok, that does it for another edition of the ten percent happier ass? If you liked it, please take a minute to subscribe rate, us all
If you want to suggest topics, you think we should cover or guests that we should bring in hit me up on twitter at Danby. Harris importantly, I want to thank the people who produce this project. Lauren Efron just go ahead and the rest of the folks here and ABC who helped make this thing possible. We have tons of other broadcasts. You can check them out at ABC new podcast dot com, I'll talk to you next Wednesday, There's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way. The corona virus pandemic, but every community there are pockets of people who are up. Every day. This is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our time in these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going
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