Social scientist, author and podcast host Arthur C. Brooks believes America has developed a "culture of contempt." He feels we increasingly view people who disagree with us not as merely incorrect or misguided, but as worthless, which is warping political discourse, tearing us apart as people, and even wrecking our health. In this week's episode, Brooks discusses his meditation practice, his relationship with the Dalai Lama and how we can bridge national divides and make progress as a society, all while becoming happier and more effective people. The Plug Zone Website: https://arthurbrooks.com? Podcast: https://arthurbrooks.com/podcast/
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier vodka in her again. I love I was in many ways. It is actually a conversation about how to have conversations less that sound, irredeemably mega and academic to you. Let me just put this in context. It is my opinion. I don't think this is super controversial, that one of the biggest problems in american public life right now is political polarization and toxic tribalism. We're not talking to each other we're talking past each other or their brooks, has thought deeply about. This problem is actually doing something about it and giving people
active advice in these tough times. He spent ten years as the President of the American Enterprise Institute, which is a conservative, think tank in Washington DC he's now a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School government He also has an excellent podcast. The Arthur Burke Show and a new book which is called I love your enemies how decent people can save America from the culture of contempt and in this conversation, talk about how to disagree, agreeably the danger of contempt and what a dear, how corrosive it is both interpersonal early and on a macro level in our key sure and his sometimes controversial relationship with his holiness the Dalai Lama, which is a fascinating thing to talk about so a lot to get too without her books and we'll get to it soon. First to address a bit The first item of business is that there is a new meditation up on the ten percent happier apt. That is directly germane to the conversation you're about to hear-
from Jessica Morey, but one of my favorite meditation teachers and it's about having hard conversations. It's called hard conversations, that's the name of the medication. If you want a search for it, and this is a you can listen to before you get into a difficult conversation which I suspect I will be used. On the regular. Now that I know it's there so go check that out the other item. Business I want to get too is that a lot of you have reached out to me even email and taxed and twitter about share in Salzburg, one of the most respected, experienced, intelligent and awesome human beings and meditation features in the world. She's had a bit of a health crisis recently Swat. I want to read you what I think will be comforting words from her director of operations, Lily Cushman. This statement is very brief,
from Lily. I'm sharing the news that chair and went through a major health emergency this past weekend, so that will have been by the time your hearing, this too begins ago, she's now stable and on the path to a full recovery. She is receiving excellent medical medical care and we are deeply grateful for all the amazing work and dedication of her doctors, nurses and hospital staff. It is truly remarkable to take ever health care and will be taking a few months off from teaching so that she has the time and space to heal completely. We will be updating her calendar of events, to reflect these changes in the next day or so, and for those of you directly impacted by these cancellations. We thank you for your patience and understanding. I know how many of you have a profoundly deep. On which Sharon and that this message is not an easy one to read. Rest assured that you will be back in action in no time and surrounded by a tremendous support system during this time, so that from early cushion
I want to say I don't have a ton of additional information. Other than to say that, from what I've been able to gather from good sources, she really is on the road to recovery and in very good hands so share. And if you listening to this this difficult, period. If, if there's any silver lining, it is that you should hopefully be more acutely aware of the ocean of good will that exists out there for you and myself included I and my family are sending you an enormous amount of love and I hope to connect you soon. I should also say that there is an enormous amount of goodwill coming specifically from the team at the ten percent happier app where we all love Sharon, and she is one of our founding too, cheers her and Joseph guilty. So that's an update on sharing. Let's get back to the show this week, as mentioned the guests Arthur Bro, I just want to read to you a few very quick lines from here, Bio Jesse get a sense of of worries coming from you is the best selling author, a social scientist. He will
until recently the president of the American Enterprise Institute his path to politics, was anything but typical at nineteen. He left college to play the french horn professionally. He toward internationally several albums, eventually landing in the city orchestra of Barcelona, twenties he returned to the United States is completed his bachelors degree by correspondence he went on to earn a phd in public policy focusing on. macro economics and mathematical modeling after completing his doctor, he spent ten years as professor of public administration. He is now and in demand speaker he's a contributing up right or for the New York Times a frequent radio and tv, and I should add, podcast commentator. Seattle native he's been married for nearly three decades to his wife, Esther they live in Maryland. I'm not sure if that's actually true anymore, now that he's teaching at the Kennedy School and they have three kids, so nation
background on Arthur? Let me start talking and let you get to him, though, because he has an immensely useful and interesting things to say so here is Arthur, see, Brooks great meet. You. I've been falling in the times for along in the New York, has for a long time and Then I heard Joint Azra Klein's Pike ass. Your great and now wasn't your podcast, which is even greater. Thank you down and thank you for having me for that incredible success of your ten percent happier project for the success of this podcast, but, more importantly, for the success of the the social enterprise of making a happier human race. Thank you. I promise best. I know you're working on myself and, by extension, awfully everyone all of us here. I've got a normal thing there. Thank you. I appreciate that
So how did you get interested in? How did a nice? You know, centre right, thank tanker, get involved and in meditation I'm o practicing Catholic and a big part, the catholic faith. Something has been central to Orthodox catholic faith from for about a thousand years has been the practice of the rosary and the rosary is, is it what an eastern tall chanting but its systematic prayer, its memorized per and one of the things that I was very interested in finding when I was as a social scientist was that this the brain study, the functional MRI studies show that the same part of the brain is stimulated when they looked at nuns who had Pratt, who had said the rosary faithfully many many years their brain scan lunch a slight, the brain scans of buddhist monks and Vietnam, who had been chanting
What is this tell me told me that people can get incredibly good technique in the practice of meditation. Notwithstanding the tradition that comes from, I thought to myself I wanna see my rosary, but I want you better. Now I spent a lot of India for my for my work and why because I'm the president, a think tank on the present in American Enterprise Institute, Weaver practice and in foreign policy. That's all over the world and a big but if it is looking at India, India is one of the most interesting countries in the world. If you want to understand democratic capitalism, if we want to stand human freedom and prosperity, because India's better every time you got a perfect support, but better? Every time you go as with inspirational to actually see this laboratory of free enterprise. but in so doing I'm also gotten to know a lot of people. Hindu and buddhist leaders have become very close with the Dalai Lama, who lives in Dharamsala on the Himalayan Foothills in India. I have also got to know three three rubbish on car and others
in time of late with a man named Sri note, your who's, a southern indian guru, who lives in the compound started by Sri Romano, my Hershey one of the most influential gurus of that of the twentieth century and then in the Hindu treated exactly right, but both the buddhist unhindered traditions, which of course extremely different from each. Their bare certain similarities when it comes to the technique that they bring to meditation and so by learning motivation techniques from the masters from the people who have been practising it for in the case of the Hindus. Up to six thousand years I have become in, I have to say that undue masters have made me a much better catholic, but that would top tell me about how that would be well. You know cause your ear, your your meditate, her air Buddhist. Yes, you you're, you become not just more peaceful, you become closer to truth when your meditation practice is is true and it is constant
and it is disciplined when you don't want when you meditate, every day and you do it with sincerity and you do with a heart full, a passionate love. That's when you're meditation is actually most effective. Does the same thing in Eritrea but it turns out that that some traditions are much more effective in helping people to attain that, because have it more centrally located in their faith, certainly true in the eastern religions. So when it, when I'm with very serious practicing Buddhists and Hindus, who are meditate as I find they tend to be more adroit. Mediterranean than Catholics are and in learning the techniques and learning the the way that they meditate, and in bringing it over to my own practices, a roman Catholic. I find that its I feel closer to God. I know I am closer begun, what is your practice? Look like? What are you doing in your mind when you practice meditation on a daily basis? Now, while there then the Buddhists, the Tibetan Buddhists, which
additional most familiar with faith that the Dalai Lama talks about concentrated, meditation, single point meditation and in what Catholics recall mental prayer or meditation, which is focused on a particular idea. These are different kinds of meditation. Of course, one is actually thinking deeply about a passage in scripture. Thinking equally about an idea that we don't understand the other, a single point, meditation, which is trying to take take away with them called the monkey mind getting away. He said so that the scattered thoughts can you can focus on something and attain greater peace to understand your integral self in a better way. The same thing true in the way that we that that I might Prayers Catholic. So when I'm praying my my rosaria focusing my
thoughts and bringing my monkey mind back to where I want it to be, which is focusing on on the mechanic at the groceries. Pat is passages from the new testament while praying the same prayer over and over again prayers to the blessed Virgin Mary there's other kinds of meditation our practice each day as well, which is more dedicated towards thinking about something, a sacred scripture thinking about something that I've I'm puzzling over both kinds are absolutely are practised. The courage and the Buddhist unhindered traditions and in both it turns out in the ancient catholic traditions, are, are recommended. Swollen I found until I've had some I've had to advances in some success. ass, fittingly since going to India Lot in both of these well. So when you said what type of data is to say, sitting in the morning. You start with rosary eyes
rosary generally, because biggest single point, meditation, eyed and is is a really good thing out enough in your practice. You probably find it in the morning. It's it's a better time to do it in centres you better for the day just as it depends on what my days yapping like or really the pickets, People are not morning, people write and offer them mice, I would say, don't try to forty eight in the morning. Then you gotta go the time, I'm not a morning person, but it turns out that I have time in the morning, and so therefore I am again, the key thing is discipline. Alot of these things, it's not having it. Could out its remembering was important to you, and my faith is very important to me. So therefore, I want a practice, my faith in a lot of approaches in the most effective way that I possibly can and and- and so that means setting aside time for the same, whether due exercise, always you just do it when sitting with people of faith. Speaking as an observer,
respectful agnostic myself as a economists, social scientists, who's got a demonstrated predilection for intellectual rigour. What is what is that? A law that allows you to make the leap of faith to be so sure that their God. Well, nobody sure and that's actually the mystery of faith people. I will talk about the MR faith than ever really pay attention to. What that means. Mystery of faith is, is, is leaving something or living as if you believe something notwithstanding the fact that these are non testable hypotheses, most life, that we go through some day, today. I am in a going to take a left at the corner here. Why? Because my data tell me wishes the database in my head experience of had coming to work. My car show that take He left his usually faster than going right, for example, that our life is empirical what what you do as a journalist is based on empirical irregularities has called experience right, but there, Sir,
things are non testable hypotheses. There are certain things that, were you might be wrong and the mystery of faith is to say I will, in this area of my life's, suspend my disbelief for something that I think is good and true and right and and that's what I want and doing that is, it is a little bit of war with yourself and and This is something I talk a lot about with, his holiness the Dalai Lama, the idea of being at war with yourself is incredibly important. It sells violent it's how terrible it sounds unpleasant, but it isn't. That is, that's turns out to be true mastery, but to say, look at a fallacy, Evans, some months not going to do it That's to be a slave to the stimuli in your environment forever and so oh tempted to tutor, to grab the mystery of faith in some areas. Your life's say: no, no, no! No, I'm I'm gonna, be in charge here. Yeah I'll come to try to think if I
Do that, because I have a hard time Billy anything I can prove. Maybe that's, because I'm a slave to the stimuli environment, almost certainly. I am nonetheless We still have a hard time, subscribing to a belief system. That was, you know some books that were written in them: HANS Age and saying ok, these are revealed wisdom from the divine creator. And I'm gonna live my life according to this code, I said I respect and they have a lot of friends who are people of faith, and I so I don't say that will probably grandparents were out for sure absolutely, not my parents, but my gun You know this classic I to unite moralists. I made your little boy when I am in and your beer grandparents were. What is your family go United States in the early part of any of the twenty, such ok, so there were in russia- probably some yes, there's like it. I grant yeah the Ukraine. Who knows who is Russia, Ukraine, who knows at that time, were dependent on what program was
that's right. You know those like the shuttle is not that great Amato here, yeah, basically right ass, and they united the United States, and they were probably responsible for being at the centre of a jewish community imported ethnic jewish life was the practice of the faith. Was living by the law and by the time you whence came along. They said are needed that much awaited medical. I they were disabused of any notions, yeah and Dan comes along and says: I want something a little bit deeper, whether your practicing buddhist meditation or whether or not you are keeping the high holidays and and and then and then, who knows what dance kids going to do it you're, just somebody a rabbi, everything I highly doubt it is only one quarter. Jewish I met I married out of their faith. so you never rule out whenever he could. He held a who knows what he's gonna break. Now, I'm trying to just get on to stopping you
nice guy, but gods got a sense of humour to know. The future of change is diet for her book. So what allows you anymore? Why is it important to guess I'm asking to quotas in time, but what you said before this support to be a with yourself- and I warn you said you talk about this with the dialogue. What does he say that? Because I don't know that doesn't sound very buddhist well, to begin worth, he's is very buddhist. say that it's the it's the idiots Paradise to follow if it feels good, do it, because, basically, If you could do it is nothing more than a biological imperative to pass on your genes. That's why thing where your pushed internally to do things is because of these biological imperatives. Money, power, pleasure, fame, These are all ways that we, these are things that we try to accumulate, not because they're gonna make us happy and not because they're gonna help other people,
but because they make us more likely to two to propagate this she's, with our own genetic footprint all over it. right and so to say: ok, there's a difference between being so successful genetically and being a happy person. This is almost self evident. have to be somebody who's utterly unreflective too. To recognise a believer. That's not the case. Made the world around use, tells you to to use people love things. Worship yourself. My enemy of the good life is to love people use things. In my view. We should guide. That's the RO the happiness in the road. A happiness is different than the road to genetic success. Ok, and the Dalai Lama recognise that everybody recognizes that whose actually, reflecting on these types of things, so so what that means is that, if you're, not at war with yourselves, if you're losing her releasing enacting too happy
I wanna be ten percent happier soda you? How do you know that? Because that's your show you're not gonna, be ten percent happy happier unless you have this little bit of truth, that's working in your life, which is that you're happy. ten per cent happiness means now doing the thing, and some of the thing You're being pushed to do when you're, not thinking that's what I mean by being in conflict with yourself in a very beautiful way. That's so each we teach our kids to be at war with ourselves a little bit and beautiful way itself itself almost as if it were an, it, were unnatural, but is the most natural thing ever I buy everything you just said now that you say that way. I just don't know how to get you to believing in God. It doesn't necessarily get you to oblivion, God. It doesnt have to get you there and all the truth is that we have a very imperfect understanding, the universe you and I do if we
are we going to send the universe we wouldn't be trying to figure out how to be ten percent happier would be an exact science. We like turning on the tap water coming out, so all of us have been struggling for forever to actually figure out what the secrets are. What the what the equations are, that that we're trying to put in place by the way there's nothing strange about this physics- is incredibly an exact science. People thought that when Newton came with his laws that will these were the ones and an eternal laws. Waters of an Einstein invalidated newtonian physics show that new? Newton was wrong. It doesn't mean that he was crazy mean that you couldn't still use newtons equations as an approximation of what's going on in the natural world, but but I Stein showed that it was nothing more than a proxy innovation and we will come to a point where we understand that Einstein was wrong to that's what we're gonna get. The truth is
we don't know about what the that there is a truth underlining the spiritual irregularities of the universe. There is a truth under their someplace. We don't know what it is: the calf I don't know what it is: it use buddhist minorities we're just doing the best that we can work, can't you just a comfortable, not knowing it rather than assigning a comfortable, not knowing I just choose to. I just choose tube If I did now, and it doesn't mean I'm right, I might be wrong. I'm might be completely delusional such faith with humility. Of course, there's nothing. It means the humility is supposed to be central to the christian faith is full speed. Central began that former from our older brothers and sisters, Jews, I mean that's actually part of being in harmony with what we believe is God's law, but is also incredibly prudent thing to be. I mean to be too to be pride. Full do not be humble about what we know is dude is to turn our back on, all of them all the
the reality is that we face from day to day for some wrong. I've seen faith done both ways that I've seen it down with a lot of dogmatism and I've seen it down with a lot of wisdom and humility. Absolutely I I prefer ladder, Sir Life, how did you become friends with the Dalai Lama? So is a beautiful thing. Actually I had a list of those present of eight July and the fruit for listeners wrought in paying attention to the Washington DC. Think tanks I'd like to see congratulations. You know you're doing something with your life. It's important kit those of you who do know something about eight. I know that I, as a public policy, think tank dedicated to multi foreign policy and economic and social policy in Washington DC, making better making politicians better off in a cooperative, scriveners, conservative, yes and a right, but free
free of free enterprise, oriented american strength, oriented nonpartisan, I'm not a republican or democratic. We not just a guy who thinks that democratic capitalism is on balance good for people and that's it that's kind of whom I am I and my colleagues, but one of the things that we don't do is religion spirituality in, but I had a list of people. I thought so interesting to talk about the morals of democratic capitalism with this list of people and to get rid of audiences that had never heard that in number one analysis, dialogue, life, I've, I love his writings have read his books. I admire him, an incisive ha I'm going try to go to where he lives. He has a monster in Dharamsala. India and I'm going to see if I get an audience with him and ask him if he'll come to Washington DC and discuss this with me in front of an audience of you know until
with an audience and politicians and people who have power in the public policy system and in in America, and and it was interesting you I spent an hour and a half talking to women and is is one in suite at the end of the hour. He said so you love free enterprise, it added Wanna say. While I was in love it I mean a break. system, everyday. Like I'm unaware waste time years a year, your holiness that's right, and he says I. I am a marxist, and I thought if I came off away figures on and he says, but I do not believe in the force government sharing, I believe in voluntary sharing is the basis of human morality. I said man exactly, I think too. I don't care if its call free
their prize or marxism, I believe that sharing the bounty that we have, that finding systems that that that bring that lift people up at the margins of society that bring people together there are in unity that great, create greater solidarity and brotherhood. They can give us more love ass when I'm all about and in, and whether we call that whether we call it put Marxism were free enterprise or or anything else. I want more of it myself, but you come and talk about. This would mean motion. He seems at yes and he came we working together. Sense, but it was still controversial when he came here know that some he for yea able well, I don't think he's the Dalai Lama is to keep you mean, he's deflects. He is like it, there's a guess that reflects he's like a space to write on one of those superheroes you the more he you said
they are in their direction. The stronger they get at some level of is that every everything helps it allows the great man. Yes, the vanity fair, this really funny headlines, and why is that only love visiting the right wing American Price Institute and that the truth is because peace and justice in compassion or his thing anyway, to talk everybody and that's a good thing that this is the lesson, the non spiritual, the policy lesson. Eleanor brings to all of us, which is you gotta talk to everybody. This idea of de Platt forming certain people closing yourself off from conversations with certain people disparaging certain people because of pre conceived notions of who they are, what they think it's it's it's a built in built in you, you, realise that some people seem beyond the pale, but so many times. I we assume that in that were wrong. I'm running a book right now called love your enemies as really dedicated to the spirit that I've gotten from work
and with his holiness, the Dalai Lama. In that only books, you workin on animals work number as ITALY I think too that also by the way, something down from the thinking going back to the university next summer, so University, Harvard ok, never ever that. Yes, it's a small college. In Boston and and I'll be Bobby had more time to get to work on multiple projects, but this this project love your enemies. Basically is wrong title in so far as the people who disagree with us there simply brothers and sisters who disagree with us there, not our enemy, This is so, therefore, we have no reason not to love them than those a concept that I got from the Dalai Lama himself. I wanna get into because you have is excellent. New pod cast really talking about how to disagree. Agreeably But but before again that say on the economic tip. For us again, will you talk about voluntary, sharing these being the basis. If, if the government he's not involved, how can we make sure
that the sharing happened. Yeah I mean it's. It's we can take it point where we say, because voluntary sharings, that is the sort of scenic one on of moral excellence, that we shouldn't have any welfare programmes. I think it's wrong. I think it's actually wrong because we have public goods. Will we have a preference is as a society where we don't want people to fall. the cracks. We would not want people to be too poor at what were saying basically as we want to share, but we have not. Good mechanisms for doing it through alms, giving alms for the poor, and so therefore, we found of an excellent way of doing it, wishes government redistribution and offer. maybe in the only thing that, by the way, this ever made it possible as the bounty that's come from capitalism. The first time in human history, the societies can be rich enough that we have on overflow that we can pay, aid to support people. We ve never met through government means, which is the greatest achievement of capitalism, I think actually believe or not is the welfare state and in which we need to fund that we need to fund it
generously and seriously and in a in a way that doesn't create incentives that demobilizes people and makes them not a needed orthodoxy in some quarters on the right that the welfare state is a massive fiery failure. Well, the welfare state. Is we ve as we configured? It certainly has problems so what I would say that worth at auction the right, if there is You now is the right isn't is, is it is not a monolith? Yachts amounts to cycle after me. That's the great thing about America is, when you say right or left, doesn't mean anything and hear what we have our opinions, and we have our neighbours, and we have conversations They also unfortunate have our biases yet unaware Ives, yea it totally totally and- and that is of particular problem right now, but one of the beautiful things about the United States is that people have a sort of fungible,
in their views and change. I mean I'm, I'm really ideologically very different than my own family and my parents were different than their parents and there was no problem. Well love each other well go along, although, as you talk about in your pot cast, there have been moments where your parents were worried that you might be voting for Republican yeah, a deep, deep secret family, yet for sure yeah, but but it never greater problem. Just sort of. Why are you doing was it. You can come to Thanksgiving so, to the extent that there is some orthodoxy in the right is the same as orthodoxy on thinking people on the left, which is that everything in these followed policies has an imperfect and it has had some some side effects have been really deleterious. Example. We spent twenty
three trillion dollars on on welfare programme. Since Lyndon Johnson kicked off the war on poverty and the war on poverty was kicked off on April. Twenty four nineteen sixty three nineteen sixty three when you went to this place, called China's Kentucky a little town Kentucky and end, and he said, is it views the master amid the scraps great? He had always photographers life magazine and writers, from Time magazine with him in and he went up on a guy's porch and he said tell me your story is a guy setting up a job. Five years ago, two kids get a first re education and he was poor, kids were malnourished and he walked off the portion said today. I declare war on poverty. Our goal is total victory and that you would have shared
because it was great and it was a time a promise and he came back to Washington, the guy. He put in charge of the war on poverty, was sort of Shriver was Jeff case, brother law and incredibly great American, a guy who, just you know he had a love for the poor. He had a belief in America's totally patriotic and he said that the goal of inheres they hear the crux years were: conservatives. Liberals can agree that goal the war on poverty. He said is dignity, not dolls, that should be the goal that we still have today. But the problem is that it is not that there are too many dolls. It's just that we ve executed, allow these programmes in a way we have eighty welfare programmes depending on aid Tom, and a lot of them are internally in conflict, a lot of them to create incentives for people to not work and created dependency and- and that's not created dignity.
and if we believe that we are brothers keeper, that we should be lifting people up, that everybody deserves dignity than they need to be needed, and we need to do it differently. That is not to say that we need to get rid of offer arms. My view, that's insane. We need to do it better, remembering that we need dignity. We should demand dignity for every person and what about Medicare, for Medicare for all is a is a policy that ruinously expensive and, as configured wishes to say, basically a single pair system Canada or UK or something would be hard to execute, given the fact that even those programmes at their model on our working very well, so the idea how care for all is a slogan. It's kind of a bumper sticker, What we want is better medical after build the wall, the corona
are coming. It ended. It makes people insane when they talk about a little bit in on the right to get all really angry about it without thinking about it. On the left is a wall. If you don't like it means much, you hate, you must hate poor people in their healthcare and we have a commitment to making sure that people have adequate and healthcare. They have access to adequate healthcare Everybody does. I believe that were way better ways to get that done than something like Medicare for all which would be deleterious for it, not just economic prosperity, but would lead to two and three cheers systems reply when light. So what would be the way to get it on adding bring you in here too, heavily Hell's? Yes, but I'm bombardment answer and the answer is go to eighty, I dot org mean that's why God created American or presence This actually answer. Questions like this actually does not part of my theology as a slogan too, by the eighty I am. I think tank was created to answer exactly those questions you known, sir. We have. We have two hundred and eight
the scholars and staff dedicated his saying here, the seven things that you need to do not to zero out health care for poor people, not to claim that poor people shouldn't have healthcare like rich people do, but to do it in ways that are compatible with- market mechanisms so that we can do without without ruining our budgets without, while still Ford of all and at the same time, working with market so that we can continue to have a really innovative healthcare system that serves our money, as somebody who's described himself ass centre right curious. What Your view on Donald Trump Digital, you idea said I'm not a republican and I dont actually do work on politics at all. She, usually I don't talk, look leave and about our vote. I've. I don't think I voted for. I don't think I've ever voted for anybody who is one of its presidency
No, no, it's not true or big, Michael Dukakis yeah. No, that's not true. I did vote for my colleagues, I did vote for Michael the Caucasus and in those very fine man still do think is very fine. Now some of the plane you today, I think it was so you look like I voted for George W Bush twice actually and it was in and I was proud to do it and I think he was nobody's perfect president, but I really admired him as a person. I still do a lot of people do The truth is that the politics of it are not nearly as important to me as I do in public policy and but I do in my work outside for the work that I do unhappiness that work, that I do and spirituality the work I do on on human flourishing is not political at all either it's funny You know when you do work in a think tank in Washington Dc Politics is like the weather ideas like a client, and when you're on five or one c, three think tank, and why
Washington DC. You should be doing climate work, not trying to win rate, read the weather report but still subjected in you as an individual, our have pomeranian year. Yes, all I had political views for sure, but professionally format, passion is more. My professional life is, is I'm a nerdy clients, climate scientists and all the people who are working with me at eighty iron nerdy climate scientists right it's a beautiful place to be- come or asking you as an individual. I was interested in their human flourishing and all these philosophical and contemplative issues that were to be taken today you are I'm just curious, given I know you're focused on climate, but on the weather, you know how do you feel about how what Donald Trump doing in Washington these days? It's these some of the policies in some of the personnel alike in tourism as a centre right guy, certainly like bright Cavanaugh. These can be great Supreme Court justness I'll.
recording this on a day when he's on day one yes, hearings at the right and there's no is not exactly controversial and I'm a guy who's life. A lot of things are bred. I said we'll see what kind of injustice he turns out to be, because that's kind of that, how you play the game and that's great actually, because they he should be able to think for himself and judge cases from south. I think we'll probably be confirmed. Nothing! That's right! I like a lot of what the administration is done with respect to deregulation, because I think it's it's help. to set the economy free. I dont think that that is single handedly responsible for the economic prosperity. There were things that I think of the economic trends started during the last couple of years. The Obama administration so I don't think they Obama was unilaterally bad or completely wrong on the things that he was doing. I think that the economy was on the upswing in a continued, a may be accelerated little bit Wendell from took over because of his economic policies. So again, online absolutist
neither side of this kind of thing, and so I'm I'm I'm in favour a lot of the things that he's doing along these lines. Nobody, who is thinking about politics in America today, is going to look any any politician know a of liberals who liked Barack Obama Lot and they didn't like a lot of things that he was doing didn't like. the things that he was saying it is normal, it's normal. I think it's actually good to have a nuanced view of these particular politicians, and I think it's actually good too. Alfie to be able to say I didn't vote for that guy and I, like some of the things that he's doing, or I did vote for that guy's a lot of things I don't like. If, if we're not saying those things, I don't think that we have a nuanced enough. You'll fall fix, so you're saying I didn't vote for Donald Trump, but I do like some of the things he's doing.
I don't think most people in America are well. I don't think we hear from a lot of people in America right now who are expressing nuanced view that they don't know that most Americans don't pulled them, but the nature of the dialogue right now is not nuance is not one of the words. I would you to describe the dialogue in America. Yeah, that's right, and a big part of that is that the dialogue is being driven by people who are interested manipulating Americans for their own money and power and profit. That's what's going on and I'm talking about the media and I'm talkin about certain of it, especially salient voices in politics a day it basically safe. You don't come down on this tribe or an that tribe you're wishy washy, you actually need to define yourself, have to show sufficient moral outrage. The aside, I think that's not a majority in position at all. I think it most. I'm tired of being used and manipulated by interests that that
tell them that they need to be hostile towards their fellow Americans. I think it's it's a shocking squalid that we can love our neighbours. Even though the we disagree with them. I think it's crazy. As a matter of fact, and Fortunately, by the way I read the date. I think about seventy percent of Americans agree with me. I think that this seven and ten Americans thereabouts, give or take six or eight o refuse to hate their neighbours and they're looking for an alternative them that they will scratch the itch poison ivy of turning on cable news, need to get really really fired up. They will know, read their favorite columnist in their favorite paper, who says that the other side is filled with knaves and fools, but no deep in their souls. They know that it's just simply simply not true that there are people,
all who can make millions of dollars and become very famous and very powerful by getting people to fight each other. But I think that is, I think that were actually ready for more peace. Will you be doing wonderful work on this and you ve got this at this point, as we record is relatively new podcast further Brooks choking in which you may like to highlight the name of security at such and such a very innovative, very uneven unintentionally, you know its honest. Let's said Emily can I have been listening to the show. Well. First, I spent in preparation for meeting you ray listen to your excellent interview with as ran that I've been I'm half way through this first season of your show. So I feel I've been living with you for the last couple of days and it's a really quite a lovely, very well produce The stakes box media is a very good job with the pod customs parents for me, I'm even in broadcasting your whole career and
and you your level comfort me just everything you do makes it feel like you were born with the microphone in your life infant. For me, it's a little tricky because the idea of reading something and have it sound conversational that turns out to be really superpowers wondering because you know you do some kind of conversational, but I also thought there is. It was clean. To read so you're doing a good job will appreciate that. I think it got better over the course of the first season, which is eight episodes and got easy. it just wraps it aims to make my living a classroom is regulatory area for the horse. Twelve years, my career after I dropped in college. I was a french simpler and everything, but classical music is pure technical domination that you get through wraps. Yes,
so the result of that is, I've learned had again his skill and the way to get his new skills to slow everything down to the point. The people can't recognize what you're doing that means. If you have to say something is to give a speech here in a red the first three lines of it, do it so slowly tat people? Can you recognize what you're saying that will give you, as a citizen, attic skills to right now and then wraps daddy erects get Europe? I recently re learned how to swim really, and I had to do this break the stroke down to its component parts. Exactly right. Do these weird these weird drills and then come, then it somehow gets baked into your neurons and you you do. The same thing is true by the way for meditating, yet One thing is true, all wraps and and going slowly. Yes, I mean you you're, watching your breaths and it's. This is how technic actually works. So this thing with actually learning to go. Podcast same thing with the new jobs is getting. Mastery actually comes from the ballistic movements that come by by passing year, medium prefrontal cortex. You even go from from what you see
what you do without saying? Ok, now I'm going to put me on my hand here We tried to swim that way. You'd need sinking drowning falls apart. It all falls apart, an insult and that's what you do me right now, you're your inner and we re now with complete ease. not thinking about it all just like it's as if, because this is what you can do for years and years near ass ever I am having a problem that you're actually sufficiently interesting that they're about seventy three things. I want to ask you and I'm trying, forget them allocates around we're going about the lack of ease up. If there's any lack of these, that's what do unless I'm not I'm, not ascertaining it, and so, but but with podcast. That's what I'm trying to get the wraps and in a word we have now gone through the first seasons finished and we're going to start planning at the second season and what the theme is gonna be in the second season. I don't know yet, but it's going to be in this realm of people getting along people, love each other more. I'm especially interested in this concept that we have of of love and the fact that we have a love deficit in our country and will give these days
down. There blown my. How do you define love? Well there, of course, a brazilian ways to do it. but there's some that are really really obvious, and one thing that's really been amazing me of late, is looking at the data on people in their 20s today in romantic love. If that's a pretty easy, while I just got physiological implications to it that we can see in Fmri studies- and you know hormone levels and and brain activity, but more importantly, just how you feel- and we will know what that feels and, in these studies, show that people are significantly less likely to be in love were in their today than people were when they were, when you and I were in our twenties man. I wonder why, because that big attenuation of human happiness, if you wanna be ten percent, happier love in ten percent more as a good way to get there phone love romantically other than my thirty. Did you not that's that's an only ever with one woman whose today, your wife and listening to this, and that's it
The true won't listen to this, No. My wife only listened to this either and is absolutely true to aid, and I never. I fell in love with my wife and are almost overnight when I was twenty four years old within seconds. I'm convinced I will speak a word, the same language and languages of she, spanish, spanish, Catalan, social explosion, cattle and we then France and a concert who is in the front row of a concert those play and you're trying to focus on the french horn and land, because none of them had a complete mastery of focusing on the girl, the fora and as she smiley a man like that's weird man, and I wanted to talk to or not one word of English and I thought to myself we're so crazy, a thought to marry this girl. I went home until my dad it might at Seattle from Seattle. Calos data met the grown Gonna marry that's great when we meters He's got a few problems.
speak English just live in America and she has no idea I'm going to marry her, and I don't want like a restraining order. And so I just went, I started this project, this sort of start up project of trying to convince her, and I wound up having to quit my job and move to Spain and take a job in a speech in this in the Barcelona Orchestra TED. The show enough commitment that I could close the deal. that sounds both amazing and also a little crazy. It's insane it isn't. But look I mean everybody who is listening to us was not manner That's exactly the story of people who start companies is the same story. Why? The point is and this is this- is something that that I'm thinking about of late and writing about all. But your life, the start up, your life is your enterprise. All of these resources under disposal each one of us to think about that. That's the reason that so alarming to me, when I see less romantic love reborn,
twenty, which is the most underpin Earl parity of your life. When I see a less romantic love icy, less onto personal startup activity in people's lives, less passion, yet less passion, but is the same thing, the living in a sort of be no software company or you want to start on biotech or whether or not you wanna get this person to marry you. It comes from the same entrepreneurial impulse in impulse and waterways. That's in this, the life and life- that's their. It sounds crazy to you and me, but but look you ve done something crazy Tell me the crazy thing that you did get your wife to love. You what did I do to get my wife to love me? That was crazy. It was pretty boring, took on a bunch of dates. I think in some ways I probably did a lot of stuff that was, self, this directive and tried to driver away in some ways, because I wasn't there was less
other them that I am now other, I'm still doing. What's a dumb stuff, I don't know that I did crazy things, intellectually the the best version of me and of its crazy, really came out once we're in relationship and we have to deal with challenges together and I got forced to stretch beyond what you know beyond the selfish default mode when she got breast cancer, which we had massive infertility struggles, the brain closer together after and I, as somebody who is really truly, I think wrestled with selfishness under big level had to get out of I own way to be of service interesting has not had an answer. Your questions are actually very good answer. My questions are perfect, estralla question, because entrepreneurs- when they talk about the, key moments in their enterprise. They never talk about early success. There was talk about what they did when there is threat
so so a guy Willy Meyer, unlike his Bernie Marcus, is started home Depot and when Bernie Marcus tells you the story of home depot. He doesn't talk about the first billion he talks about when he opened his first story peace restricting alone, nobody would come in and we have asked it's out on the on the street, at one dollar bill, just so, people walk in the store and how his wife would but I'm shave alone, because in the bathroom was yet a razor blade, and you never know what's gonna happen these the stories of entrepreneurs actually tell on the things that made them strong the things that help them learn you you, the truth is that your strength is your weakness and the weakness that those experts who used, which is your selfishness and how you deal with it in these moments, a threat or what create that strengthen the enterprise at the enterprise of Dan's life is his family. That's your start up to an end? This visa is pivotal moments. You just told me that Bernie Mark story of your little home, deep of your marriage and
and these are the things that are really really important in a as these are the make her brow things that make you an entrepreneurial person yeah, it's so interesting, but it's a jet. It's such a, and maybe I'm reading this incorrectly. But yes, somebody who is both I'm talking about you hear a contemplative, Andy Conservative, we you say, sent a rapid, logistic, Yo Lechner sounds more militia. Louis and malicious looseness is really part of tenth being ten percent higher allude elevated. We do a style. To see that the entrepreneurial impulse to that of the one of the cornerstones, if not the cornerstone of a democratic capitalism, can be wrapped up in love. Such an interesting thing, I think about as contemplative conserving yoyo this. This is look of it. If you're, not donor for love is now we're doing it if its not actually about
other people. If it's not generative, it's not for some good. It's not worth doing me, one of the things that that that the conservatives in America and around the world, but the conservative movement in General has failed at utterly. Is remembering the. Why of why should be inserted in the first place me. The reason I became interested in France or price there is no became interested in democratic capitalism is not because I saw you took an economic class. I said she with It turns out that socialism tends to create less of a consumer surplus care that I didn't care either. The reason is because I had actually pivotal experience. I was nineteen years old is on concert
to her in India, and I was on a plane that that had an emergency landing in Madrid Chennai and I spent I didn't expect you have spent days. Walker on Islam has big effect, because I was nineteen year old kid and was nineteen. Eighty three and I saw poverty like I've, never seen before starting kits lepers people dying in the street and it was it was. It was a time of sort of normative time. For me, and I came back, and I thought you know, this is a time when people were seen. Pictures of the National Geographic magazine of kids were flies in the face and extended bellies and in the question is: why do we have so much in other people have so little, and I kind of went on a vision, quest to find the answer to that and what could be done and just in I have complete openness. Look, I don't have any economic background of my family. I don't have any
it. Will I d ology at aren't? Nobody has ever been in business. My father is a professor. My mother was an artist. My grandfather was a professor, I mean I come from this line of not capitalists and and and found through what I thought was assiduous study and openness and Agnes. I think a search for truth that it was the friend of prices. as instantiated and globalization and free trade and property rights and the rule of law and the idea of entrepreneurship and human freedom. That event running around the world when, as just ass, I had seen that kid in National Geographic magazine was gonna, die people all over the world, for the first time be able to see Dan Harrison Arthur Brooks. No, whether we live in is that I want that freedom, and I want that's tough and they grabbed it in an here's. The thing that the here's, the pivotal piece of
two billion of my brothers and sisters and pulled out a poverty. Since I was a kid for the first time in human history. That is the. Humanitarian miracle. I want the next two billion and I'm dead kid it getting. That doesn't mean that have to be just like a warrior, four unmitigated us I randy in capitalism. It means that I have to recognise that the front prize movement has has done that that I, as a moral person, am obligated to find a way through basic human morality and and spreading it, sustainable way in recognising that there are market failures and that we need regulation, and it's not perfect.
To find the best way to show that with more people, because there, my brothers and sisters and see only system has been able to help people by the billions stay too, and more of our conversation is on the way after this. So you just woke up your phone. Is lighting up with headlines, push notifications, a text from your mom saying? How do I click this? Ok, maybe that's just me, but if you want to get up to speed check out the new podcast from ABC News Start here literally, the ground was shaking I'm bride milky and every morning we're gonna. Take you to the stories that matter with fast fresh in Silo Robin Mower Michael Cashman, calling only twenty minutes start here: listen for free and apple podcast or your favorite podcast app. How can I get you plug your past? There you took us on this fascinating digression. I wanna get you back to a care home in a moment of be your publicist year.
Let's talk about that would will make me ten percent happier guy hopes at least the first season. you really holding on something? I think my listeners are gonna care about a lot, which is how do we talk to our fellow Americans and humans about things when we disagree deeply, and I'm just curious to hear you talk about what you learn, what we were, how we can, aside from listening to your packets, which I heartily recommend everybody do, how can we operational? some of the lessons that you gleaned, while the first thing to recognise what making it hard for us to talk to each other- and the answer is not that we disagree disagree is great disagreeing is nothing more than companies. In the war in the world of ideas in accommodation is great and economics. In its great in politics it's also great in the world of ideas and that's called disagreement. Nothing road disagreements, countries based on this road- this is America, there's nothing wrong
with even getting angry. Sometimes I mean you don't being married a spaniard. I've had like ten thousand arguments over the past, Thirty years ago this it's it's it's no problem with that an end. My friend John Gottman, whose a sort of the college of commissioners you wash in Seattle is the world's leading experts, marital reconciliation. He He shows in his work that that aim is not correlated with separation and divorce. What is it you take anger and you mix something and on top of which is discussed, which this idea that people are sort of that their horrible and is discussed mixed with anger, create something it's it's like putting ammonia and bleach. It creates something called contempt, contempt, fiction of utter worthlessness of another person. That's that that's how Arthur Schopenhauer the Nineteenth century philosopher described it.
and when you basically treat people with contempt, angers, hot contempt, his cold, you get a permanent enemy, so that takes us a. How can people talk to each other? How can they disagree, which has what the pod gas is all about. The first thing is to not do the one thing that makes it impossible for us to talk to each other impossible to disagree with each other in a proactive way in us by treating each other with contempt to treat each other mockery and I rolling and smirking and snark and all the stuff that characterizes the current debates of the day, and that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Really. I bet it isn't. I mean that the truth is somebody says something you disagree with. Will then re bringing there's nothing wrong with having people disagree with each other and when you can recognize this actually, okay for people to see with each other, you can take an even more radical step, which is to say I want people to disagree with me, because I might not be completely right
I want a test, my ideas and, if I'm wrong alone of first not last so that Therefore, I don't wanna silo myself, you know what else is crazy. Crazy. This is beyond Hale. I don't even want to get a hundred per cent of what I want, but what I'm asking for I want. But who disagrees with me to get some too because I know in my life that is better when everybody walks away happy and the basis of a society where we can work with each other, where we can disagree with each other. We can fertilizers shows opinions and ideas and where we actually are less mediocre were more excellent, because We're working on each other were show each other different angle, son, but just just might be the truth, but but contempt is naturally come occurring, mental phenomenon, so it will have, it will come up and all of us and appoint beating yourself up for feeling contempt. What is how can we recognise that attempts are rising, but not being so carried away by it that we then express it and kill anybody?
and chauffeur fruitful discussion, so beautiful question and so very buddhist question until that your voters have so you never let him an answer. The answers vacant, the answers vacant now. This is the key thing you know when you we're, when you're sitting in meditation and especially when you're beginner, it's really hard its brutal Of course. This is what you do you you, you act, you pretend you vague it, you know you, you don't be yourself up, because your mind is you got the monkey mind. You know you don't beat yourself up, because you stop counting a breath. You just bring back and you pretend it was good all along. That's what you do same thing but away minutes when when, when John Dominic I refer to a minute ago when he talked to his couples- and they say I don't look. Why, anymore? Why should I do? He says pretend you lover? like my life and at the end of it, sir. That's the reason that that's an expression
because it's actually true, it's interesting. There's a body research on smiling at there's a physician I'll. Just in the late nineteenth century I mean do Shen, who, who travelled the whole world and anthropological study of the human smile to see whether its culturally based or whether its physiological innate in the human musculature the face, and he found out that Sure enough. There, nineteen types of human smiles and only one is associate with true human happiness. The dish and smile. Oh I see it is with the orbic killer Occupy muscles around the eyes. If you see somebody, who's got crow's feet that person's been swelling with true happiness. This is just as Dan Northrop goal is to be eighty years old. Have really super pronounce proceed because we've been smiling the true happiness, a lot in our lives, that's what you want that's what you can laugh laughs when you see somebody with really pronounced Crow's, because they that happiness is infectious. Ok, I bring it up because when you simulated Lucian smiles way to do it by the way, which is too A pencil in your mouth is sticking out.
you do that and then forced herself to smile. It forces up the or Belarus ocular muscles and literally you, Brain will perceive that you're happy. and you will be happier because you fooled your brain into that's facon, it till you, now. That is a scientific basis of what the what Buddhist teaching has been for thousands of years, and it is the same way that we're supposed to live when it comes to contempt and brotherhood and solidarity, you not feel it, it doesn't matter suck it up. So what I clean, freer pod castaways, if you're sitting are one of the many things I blame thus far in only halfway through is yours. You sitting around the thanksgiving table and your voluble uncle says something that you find of noxious amid the state of american politics right now. that the move, even though you may feel contempt is to say, tell me more about why you boy, that's for sure. Amidst exactly the same for the, though it the way to think about, as you want your a fake
love say what would I do or how would I want somebody behaving toward me? I'm in is nothing more that the best way to fake goodness is the golden rule. And so to say you know if somebody disagrees with me, I want them to probable, but deep horizon attacking me. I'd want them to say ha ha, Arthur Berkshire said something I disagree with some one. Already I wonder what he meant I mean, maybe maybe I misunderstood, or maybe there's an angle I could get on something or or or maybe he just completely wrong. Let's dig in all the deeper that's what I want when people, we disagree with me. I want them to ask me to tell him more and so that the same thing that I do so this the key things to ask yourself look when when somebody is is driving in knots, say if, if you are driving that person, that's, how would you want them to act toward you and then and then turning the tables? The other thing to keep in mind- and this is important things to be really really helpful for me and my practice is to see the contempt that other people treat you with, as not
Trinity, deli, Lama taught me this one really great classed him went and we're making this documentary film is coming out next spring in the spring two thousand nineteen about what it's it's about how people pull themselves out of poverty in those people, how people build their lives called the pursuit pursuit, basically a prosperity, but in the broad sense of human prosperity, We are all of the World Islam in India Amber Little town in Kentucky in an inward. A homeless. Shelter in your city is great experience, beautiful, actually,
and I was with the Dalai Lama last seen, because it basically says no capitalism we're here. It's terrible for people like the great for poor people, dangerous for rich people, because it can lead to materialism agreed. So how do you fight that we're talking this Adela between takes when we're having this conference that we are filling? I said, I'm rainest article on I'm thinking about this thing and contempt. What should I do when I face contempt and he said express warm heartedness, because contempt as an opportunity to change a heart when he met with my heart, and so this is the basis of the thing everybody listen to us and say I want to be the ten percent happier look for contempt? Look for people retreat, It was contempt because you have this opportunity to treat that contempt warm hardiness in so doing change your hearts. You, when you react with contempt, I guess
nothing more than scratching an edge which inherently unsatisfying, because you're gonna be hungry again, it's gonna, each more. It's gonna believe it's gonna that bucket torture. The metaphor which get the idea of EU make the point on the package. That expressing contempt is bad for the express your eye contact he'll be less happy. you'll, be more depressed, you'll, even look uglier. What, then, is a lot of research on? This? Is our very, very good social psychology that actually find when people are expressing contempt there, their purse Eve to be less physically, attract people search just there's nothing good about this, but here's that here's, the good part, if you can get the discipline of saying I have just been treated with contempt. That is my opportunity to become happier and more beautiful you'll. Do it and you'll be grateful for a thank you. Thank you, God for giving me this opportunity to it in and by the way you might change a second her to know where is the most efficacy just way to two in two induces experiment answer is a hundred times out of a hundred say, social media,
It's not the thanksgiving table with your obnoxious on costs is to go on twitter for one second, and I say anything, you ve called twitter contempt, machine, is it in and in the worst cases, as a content, machine and all and a lot of the time. It is the worst of cases. really problematic. It's it's. A great thing for expressing ideas were recording this the day after Labour day and In our labor day, I ten part meditation on the dignity of work, and it was so satisfying because it got a good reaction. It got dino people saying yeah. This is the dignity of Workpeople feeling. The dignity that comes from being needed is something that we all share. do, and so it can be a real force for good, but often it doesn't say anything that even remotely political that were you express your
the or for that matter just say something you like about a movie and people walled in they'll tell you you knew you hate children and eat puppies, or something is just the worst hygienic back, I mean how you interact in assail energy, you, you hate, kids, worse, can actually answer contempt on sulphur media with warm Nelson and see how makes you feel we'll make you less interesting to people who like to gossip and who are in the contempt mill, but getting that. Getting offer that hamster wheel is something very much very much recommend to people who are in the practice of trying to become some nontrivial percentage happier. Have you heard of a group called better angels yeah there for sure I leave it to you to describe who they are at, but I be curious to see what you, do that what are you gonna know their located near near her new or they're all over the place? Actually better angels? yes, your eye, she did a store in them for night lawyer and their violence are out of date.
Where's my day? They are, I think, they're decentralized. Their boundaries are all over the place Did you asleep equal in terms of reference, information on their board and everything else in terms of reds and blues, so their board is fifty percent, whereas figures and Blue founded by one blue, one read and write. Their goal is to quote unquote de polarizing. their named after the famous Abraham Lincoln appealed to the better angels of our nature and they hold these sort of encounter sessions all over the country. red and blue in their there. Their approach was designed fittingly by a marriage counselor very interesting guy. They set of Minneapolis Fire Recall, and he actually says that dealing with people who disagree politically harder than dealing with couples on the brink of divorce goes at least. Couples who are fighting have some our commitment to one another year or their kids in common or yes, writers of residues at stake right now, by the way people who are
Politically polarized do something if they live in the same neighborhood governor together and part of the reason has become so hard is because we have come a part in the words of Charles, Marie or or a Bob Putnam at Harvard me their love. People have talked about the fact. You worked utterly geographically polarization south sorted, totally, and so, if you live in, you know an upper West side, Manhattan or or Palo Alto or someplace you're, very unlikely to have of a really close friend whose Republican you don't know anybody you can. You can. in Europe was item and had not ever encounter. Somebody vote over drop, degenerate exactly right, not just didn't Volvo. Anybody who is sympathetic to traditionally conservative policy so even suffered I've there Fourthly, mild things that I say are anathema to a lot of people people who just never mix because they it in you tend to be by the way, pushed torture polar extreme. When you-
only around people like you and as such, you can't see the common humanity with people and again this is political opinions, and yet they seem like the biggest gulfs and that's what he's. Marriage counselor, like John Gottman, and why the founder, better angels has found that this is such a hard bridge to make in America threat. It is because in ever do toggle. Others before see this, this will not be enough for me. you bet you we ourselves sorting geographically and then also in our terms of our media oh don't you? U. We live in these echo chambers, both physical and virtual right and so you're. Just net were never chow. Many of us are never. China has never not looking for a challenge that think we ought to be sure, but that the one of the principal rule of better angels. When I be interested to hear your view is never try to change somebody's mine, bread, Really all you're trying to achieve in this is their term, which I really like is accurate. Disagreement yeah, that's right and you notice that they don't say it less disagreement either
One of the big mistake that we make is thinking that that the answer to bad disagreement is less disagreement of exactly wrong again competitions, great. What we need is better design. Bring it in better disagreement means had just because were competing with each other. Doesn't me or just because we disagree. with each other doesn't mean we have to hate each other S and they re the thing to keep in mind. One disagreement is the metaphor to keep my sports so the Yankees dont want to blow up the Red Sox, bus and awaiting the game, because that's not it that shutting competition down and we're rhetorically doing something like that when we try to make somebody anathema who disagrees with us or wish were sailing. Are Our media were only talking to people who agree fast, and we and we will, but we vilify demonize people who disagree with Us- what we're doing is were blowing up the other teams, thoughts and that's what better angels is trying to solve their trying to get the teams together and to disagree fairly with you know, be good sport,
and shake hands- and you know the one thing that the Yankees and and Red Sox agree on is a baseball's awesome and they agree on that a lot more than they disagree about whether that was in the strike sown with an that's. We import areas like you know that if the Red Sox pitcher there in Boston Fenway in the Red Sox, sure throws it up in the stands in there and the umpire says actual I'm gonna call that strike cause because we're in Boston the Boston annual, say, you're a moron, that's wrong. They actually want rules. I've heard you talk about the narcissism of small differences here that we will agree on so much, but were just so focused on the places where we disagree exactly right and end soak it, but but remembering that the key things that we agree on the moral consensus around which that were basing our disagreements make our disagreements that much richer and not much more important and that's why they raise the stakes for disagreeing better and competing better d,
I went out to his you have that we as a country can survive this current spasm of toxic tribalism, so optimism, I do not share in through the barn and sing another must be a pony, and here someplace right. You know I am hopeful. Why, because hope means something can be done and the Dan Arthur can be part of the way they gets done. Then we have agency and that optimism things it's it's going to be fine. I don't know if it's going to be fine, I don't know if it's going to be actually do think that America is going to be okay, but I'm more hopeful than anything else, because I think that we have the solution. I think that most Americans in again by my empirical,
data? A big majority of Americans actually want things to be better and they're waiting for the operational leadership that will make it so, and I strongly suspect in the coming years. If we push this, if we work together, if we are part of the agents for the change that we want to see, If we, if we're assiduous about refusing to hit our neighbours that that leadership really will emerge because each one of us all really is a leader each one of us is a leader in our families and our communities and an endemic Do you like the United States, the political leadership in the and what we see in media. This demand driven phenomena. What we really want will filter up, and so we can make it. So I am very hopeful actually about the future. I think that were dead
The lack of rigidity in political ideologies quitting all sorts of discomfort and things that I really really dislike right now, but also creates an opportunity for us to say it's a new day man. I was talking to a dear friend, whose sort of centre left, like I'm centre right remarking that day, you asked me five years ago. What do I haven't? Come of the sky guy, logical S8? How? Much? If you ask me today had say all Orton stuff, that's any day of one more question on on this in terms of giving advice to people who are interested in being good citizens being a part of the solution, one advice it I'm tempted to give, but our mutual friend Ezra. If I recall when I had him on the pack, has he disagree with me, but I still think it's the right advice aside from avoid contempt, but which I think
wonderful advice- is to try to get out of your own ideological ghetto and to try to consume some media. That will challenge you, so I would say, media diet. Diversification is really important. No Azra pointed out that a lot of people who this advice given to people that people it doesn't work. and I don't know- maybe is right about that. But it is important to me there is. There is a great service from somebody put on twitter if you'd, not if you're, only following people. You agree with your doing wrong and I think it's important to follow. People disagree with to listen applied, cast of people that you disagree with to do it on a consistent basis. Your ideas or challenge right am, I am I you agree that it is well. They did the wooded razors talking about his studies show that people when their when there simply exposed to in non curated opposing points of view, they haven't you
extremely strong averse reaction to adverse reaction to it- and a sort of an aversion therapy that happens in the result as they build up. Stronger, Anthea bodies to it. So there and you can imagine that I mean, if you're up, you're really hard core progressive and a flip on Fox news. It's gonna be New out, even more you going to say, is true all these terrible things. I've been thinking about because I listening to watch that the eight p dot m, nine p, DOT M, ten, p dot, M lineup, and it's like, I can't believe, Skies are saying it just as bad as I thought, or if you're really really strong, conservative and use flip on your five minutes of mourning additional national they are something in the morning in a thick, can't believe us guys you're talking about it? It's it's everything I thought more and or US embassy, or something like that. So there is, as I think it is important not just to get-
So your silos. I think that is more important to have relationships that help curate your experience outside your silos. You need to make friends who disagree with you. You need to basically talked a fine people, you trust to say planes. To me. Tell me what you're listening to and tell me what you hear so one things I recommend, given that we live in self, sorted silos. How do we make those friends in everybody's got? There's somebody everybody's got something for one thing is important that one of the good great advances of the past fifty years. An american society is this understanding, Diversity is king in diversity has just improved experiences. So much where we live and we work environments where men and women work together. People different races, work together, where people who speak different languages, work together, I mean it's like diversity is a dilemma: Multiracial multi, ethnic home and its
It is that of great source of joy, I'm smarter and better for it s. What did people realise that that was weird way of thinking until relatively recently, so we get there, but one of the things that were trying to resist, is ideological, oversee, so step. One is demanding that we work. In places that have ideological diversity, workplaces really important to us, and so I know that super important to you and media amused complete non ABC News is just not going to have something where everybody is a hard core progressive. It's not gonna happen, because that would be a bad product, but universities need to do this new version do a much better job of getting conservatives on faculty and some are on and I'm going Harvard and that's great. I can't wait. But other universities need to do a better job too, because diversity matters ideological diversities while and p
you'll need to figure out the diversity matters to them. Socially, it's not like you. You literally can't find anybody who disagrees with you, you're not trying hard now think envy and its uncomfortable it in and that's that's the point go out and do it and so may a friend make more friends and say I want you to help me understand system, funny, because when you have this experience so unbelievably enriching, nobody actually gets of. Has a friend who disagrees with political and says you know I I you know I have this right. he's a great guy lad, but it was not an enriching experience for me because the guy voted for tromp amid it just doesn't, doesn't happen way. On the contrary, they say something like he's such a great voted for Trump, He's such a great guy. You know that's what you're still the kind of
excuses for it wishes to say that it's a really enriching espresso take make the effort to do it, because life gets better if anybody's, listen to us believes that diversity is good interest and inherently good thing for the human spirit than than take that to its ask him to take it to max and do as the hardest for people in America today, which has people often tickly, think differently than we do if you're super play just like me, be buddies with an atheist and say, tell me when you see this thing. What do you hear on my side- and I go to your side and say that thing that I hear is really bumming me out? What do you hear and it'll be like an ass like it's? It's like somebody taking you through his neighbourhood- and it's like I never saw that before or in Ireland hired a guy one time to take me to the National Pals Museum in Taiwan and
Is it use that is an art historian of chinese art historian and in been it before, and it's like wow? That's a blockage, AIDS really beautiful and from the Ching dynasty in his great, and then he would take me through needs. What the person was thinking in what was going on is a completely doing so. Let somebody curate that, for you, it'll open up a whole new world, that is a true secret happiness you're writing one of your many projects. In writing about the second hack half of life here, firmly in the second half of my life, I think released by Navy baby. Forty forty seven. Yes, it may not be, as only I wouldn't, of actuarial chardonnay actuarial charge or in your favour of really they going to Lily are north of a hundred you could You could it minutes ago. You should say nothing is anyway. I take your point. You might be at the border, so I'm nonetheless highly invested in wood.
Breyer ruining, I want to know what you're learning and one of the things you said to me in the elevator appears that ambitious people can answer the question. What what are they? What are they travel? do yeah and somehow that's related to the second half of the year. The eggs he saw happiness generally comes not from attaining the object of your heart desire, not getting it not getting there. But if the gradient and their its becoming better, becoming more successful on your own terms and and if you do you're wrong. It's your denominate, your success in money, power and pleasure and thin, if you doing it right it's in glorifying God and serving your fellow man. That's that's really when if, as the current, you gotta get the right currency, but to be sure it we see e that accumulation, when you see that success happening that turns out to be the real driver of happiness. The problem:
one is of your very successful person if again, Harris gotta, greater right promise, there's the physics of success, which is that what goes up must come down? justice and just as the gradient gave, you unbelievable satisfaction that the downside of that gives you great frustration. So there's a body work by these two social equality, the unity Austin, yours, a Texas Austin, a couple and they're doing work on the burden of high achievement. They find that the people were most frustrated later in life than people heard. They tend to be the most melancholy who tend to feed, most like failures, the tendency to high achievers, I his that, because they have actually seen the downward slope even have anything. Man, there's no nobler slope, as legal fees like anything ever came down, but coming down it just it just terrible, it's horrible for people. The question is: what do you do strategies for that, because in us, like thick, sorry
even if you didn't want to do that, Dan Harris in trouble because you got a big curve. You're well known guy. I mean it's like everybody in college, and they want to be like you. They wanted to journalists, Minnesota profession. They want to have what you have. You got it and you and joining all way up, but at some point in agony How do you avoid? Because ten percent less happy. You tell me please: ok, there's strict. There is good strange best here's the bad strategy raging against the decline. So I mean deal I am and Dylan Thomas is. We re his rage against the dying of the light of my favorite Paul mouths and high school, because I was you know, wearing a lot a blackened and and- and I thought he was so cool to drink stop the death of thirty nine and me what could be cooler than that right and it's a terrible strategy. He wrote that for his father, when his father is dying rage again,
the dying of the light. That was his advice to his own fathers, terrible advice because you can't illegal gonna die avoid it. So the only answer is to embrace it As you know, our one is that the curve that IRAN, that rigour in decline, the second half of your second second part of your professional life- is only one curve but generally related to what psychologists call fluid intelligence load. Intelligences, your cognitive speed, your processing capacity, your problem, solving ability, it's your sheer cognitive horse power and tested decline in late thirties. Forties fifties really incline. That's not your only Kerr, because you have a second intelligence,
her, which called crystallized intelligence, which is based on your stock of wisdom, it's actually a virtue. Nobody ever says the virtue of brains, they'll time with the virtue of wisdom. However, so crystallize intelligence is a stock, it's what you know and how you are able to use it and that increases through your fortys and fifties and sixtys and stays high. I was well until you die, so what does it mean? That means you need to jump from activities that favour your flew intelligence in your business and of business. A lot of the world were listening to us is based on high fluid intelligence exe. Letting their high flew intelligence. You need to jump from the fluid intelligence, curved crystallized intelligence curve. How do you do it, Fluid intelligence is all about innovation. I it's all about innovator with your life and in your career and in doing something better indifferent in other people, do crystal Intelligence was all about instruction which you need it
it was you need to go from being an innovator to being a teacher, and a cases are all throughout his. that's one, the cases I love the most is my favorite composers, Johansson, Russian Bach, by was in maybe the greatest composer rubber lift, but, what people are no about Bach him and he was the master of the Khyber Oak, which was thus thing in the in the late eighty in the late seventeenth century. Bach was coming into was only born in in one thousand six hundred and eighty five, and by the by the early 1700s, the high brokers that everybody was listening to and he was the innovator. He was the master that yours, crazy thing. That happened. His son, Johan Christian Bach, changed musical styles and classic the classical period of classical music took over in a different style and bought The motion by the Father couldn't do it. His son was was ringing in this new style and leaving his father behind and his father It was like the equivalent writing disco or some like. Nobody wanted to listen to it anymore. So already do you couldn't
she gets a dying of white. He could have become depressed. You gotta, like our failure and quit none enough. He actually dedicated the rest of his life to recording in text form the highest than it has ever been thought and written in the high baroque for posterity. He became it true teacher. He wrote of work called they consider frugal, which is the art of few which he said, somebody's gonna look at this at some point assail the Khyber Oak. He believed in that he'd he put his whole heart into an he taught it to his children and he taught it to the into the students and Thomas cure her in Leipzig, where he was the canter. He was the teacher and an hundred years after he died Felix Mendelson, the of the german composer dusted off the art of few and said to his friends duty. You got here that this is an end. The hybrid became the thing again in and Johan Sebastian Bach became the rock star composer that we still know today.
He was right. He was and he was happy when he died, because he went from fluid to crystallized intelligence. I don't feel ready to switch you not race which yet here's the point you have to actually build a Europe crystallize intelligence is naturally building. There were It will be a point in which you are going to have an opportunity when you feel like you're raging against it Why, when you feel like it's not happening when it's not making it for you anymore? That's your dead, give away like you need to be thinking, so so so you think, like you, forty seven years old you when you're fifty seven years old, maybe you should be teaching in schools journalist Maybe you should go to academia or or at the very least you should be thinking about how how people can share the fruits of your knowledge, how you can pass it on
because the key thing, what you find is the great love in any professional lawyers, for example, great lowers the color teeth by being just a hot shots. They this good crews. Through these cases they can figure stuff out. They know how to use case law better than anybody else there being taught by older lawyers who can't do it they do, but who used to be able to do it? The managing partner of a great law firm is basically the master teacher he's the the Himalayan master he's the guru in the cave right at, and what does he done is? Actually he has managed to move from the flute intelligence and made him to start the crust boys intelligence that made him the grand eminence of his law firm. So why did you say that ambitious people dont know what it is they want? Ambitious people often think that they will be finally happy when they get to the peak, not understanding that what they want is to go up the mountain so that brings to mind something I heard the writer Sean a core Sheridan Juno shown no doubt s age
W n First name Ach o r, he wrote a book called the happiness it vintage, trained, positive psychologist at Harvard right and he? I don't think this is his formulation, but he talks about it. A lot he says happiness is the joy we feel moving. or are potential? And when I heard him say that it meant exactly nothing to me and over time in the last couple of weeks, since I heard him say this, I've been ruminating on it and it's starting to make a little bit more sense in ways are much more. I can. I can articulate, but it's interesting that in here- in their definition. Is that you never get there? It's always about the pleasure of moving toward the
tat shall not arriving and then resting on our laurels indefinitely. We are a species oriented toward progress. Progress is incredibly satisfying stiff, but you can't fall for the fallacy that you're ever going to you. You have to have power. arrest without falling into the illusion that there is an end point Will there in the key thing? Is you have to you? You work with intention, but without attachment to the object of the intention and again Europe the Buddhist when you understand that their mass visitors, who is a master, their arms. no one when you achieve that you're. Finally, we have actually so that the point is that we have to go
pickle direction. Otherwise we would be going in circles. We would be directionless, it's it's a detachment from the object of the the actual achievement per se, understanding the progress towards that is. What's giving us the innate satisfaction with that. That's, why that's what we're wired to understand that were wired to in a way there's this western understanding of the human psyche, which has always wanting to better. It's an american thing in its way that the nation of strivers, with a little bit of Buddhism, which of the cherry on top, which is to say that when you actually get there, that's not the point I think getting there. That is actually the point. The strike per SE, actually gives you the satisfaction and actually that's what moves society forward. what we want, and we want to every kid to get a great education. Every kid to have
proper ambition, everybody to have when you say I want every kid to be able to achieve his dreams we are not talking about is, is articulate your dreams, get there, because you know what we're so rich. You tell me what you're dreams are in a lot a case like into buy it for, but would you kid in your. Stone, vipers, but my kids are grown up and you know I don't want to give them with I've got my kids are and they are earning Their success, and that is the most satisfying thing to watch- is watching them earning their success, getting better what they do, and I want that for me too. I want that for you to Dan, can I bring you have your like. I totally agree and makes sense, but I keep falling into this. I mean the Buddha had a term for this cause suffering, yet I keep falling into the trap of never enjoying the process, just figuring that issues I get this book done this whatever done then
Danny nearly killed or whatever you others interesting, rubber right so psychologists. He wrote the book hide. Buddhism is true and former guest on. it's a wonderful, but it is a wonderful book level. What can he talks about the fact that that that evolution psychology wires us to think that things are getting. The thing the achievement per SE is gonna. Gregg, give us greater happiness. Then it will and that they have This will be longer lasting than it is why? Because we we should be further for the human race to they get itself. And for us to make human progress, we will vote to be creatures that that live under that illusion. I met live under that illusion. Otherwise we wouldn't do any thing right. Ok, so, but we need to get new unit as sentient beings who worked must be more involved than simply acting according to every impulse like a snail or something
we should be able to recognise that illusion in and so be free. So what you're talking about we talk about the the first noble truth of of Buddhism is life is suffering, and actually it's better translated to life is dissatisfaction because the word sanskrit Walnut Duca Nootka is me, You know dissatisfaction with basically muses you're gonna, get that and you finally get things like. That's not a great that we have rock stars with. From here. That's that's where we have all of us with tons of programmes and mean that is the essence, of why we self medicate in any particular way, whether as working too much or whether it's some sort of a bad a bit or as even the bad habit of ill humor all the time which is kind of like a drug problem and its way it's because of Duca it's because of dissatisfaction that comes from them
and to free ourselves from that has to understand that that it's not that the that the achievement per SE is not nor a Tory us is the attachment to that achievement. Is the source of our discouragement is the source of frustration per se and finally be able to let go of that while still being lost enjoying the trajectory and an relishing the progress. This is one of the great secrets it weirdly. We all know this for our kids. We all understand this. For our kids, it's like it's like you, some walking yeas three he's no immoderate, locking, ok, just like not toilet trained, yet Ryan A boy and he'll be like till his nine. He s. So body takes us first I feel it is not because you think is going to be in the limp x is like the worst Walker ever he's completely uncoordinated harem he's terrible yeah he's completely terrible. That's not the point in your enjoy the progress per se,
he's enjoying the progress. Perseis cracking up is digging it right. We understand that for other people, and we somehow forget that for ourselves and if we can get that through our heads than we have this in again, it takes years and years and years of practice and progress. Europe look you're meditate her, you ve studied with the masters I have low, but to understand working on a third of the project for our lives. What a pleasure it's been to sit and talk, you thank you down and loving with you, and thank you for having me on this so I knew I was gonna, have a good time doing this through. Thank you very much greater up every share that thanks. As I said, I really love this conversation. I hope you did to just a reminder. Go check out his pipe cast. Your other book show and took out his new book love your enemies. Arthur, Brooks regret. We had a conversation. I suspect me I come from him, so let's get your voice mouse, here's number one!
Odin Harris does is alien that in Texas, a super cool down that you should visit someday. I found meditation through your book temperature happier after hearing you, SAM Paris, on the dual Logan Punk asked and people of seventeen from very near to the practice, and I really want to thank you for speaking and teaching about meditation like you do, because I was a super sceptic like you and swear words help honest. I know my thirteen year old son when your book and half the time I listen to them: Britain and he loved the two and again. I think the forward really help funding meditation and yoga minimalism in the last year and a half have really brought some positive changes to my life and thankfully caused me to take a hard line in the way I spend my time how I see the world where my kid you're thirteen internment, how I exist. My question is: how do you work still cut throat profession after mile on your journey of enlightenment and are you guys say wanted
Am I not, but I think that the journey for me, you don't want a structure of upon which one grows and progressive. Have you met me five years? If I wasn't even on a drum, I do gravitate towards living in black and white so hard for me to work in such a competitive field, and I do of medical sales and feel good about one annoying. When the business called the golden handcuff, I try to find a deeper meaning. Tell myself I'm helping people when most of the time I feel like I'm just reading the book, I thought. Maybe it would like that, for you were that you know what I mean. At least you know: how do you do it? Thank them up to hear that there was great voicemail. I really appreciate it now. I want to go to your partner, Texas, of Texas Judges Route, one react to things in their first, this, where words, I'm glad you're thirteen year old Son, like that, some, not everybody likes it so good. He get some positive feedback on that, because I occasionally get negative feedback.
And I totally agree with you about the spectrum of enlightenment. Look I've been pretty clear about my stance on enlightenment, I'm agnostic, and but even if even if you're a hard core buddhist practitioner, it is viewed as a spectrum. There are stages along the path. So you're spot on there, and I think you know I certainly unabashedly ink in continually subscribed to the ten percent view with the carry out the ten percent at a bit a joke, but that marginal improvement happens over time, and so I am really site for you that the last couple of years, since he said two thousand seventeen o you been checking the stuff out in that it makes a difference. I am really happy to hear that as your question,
so what I want my personal view about my own career, etc, etc, and a second because I think it to my mind there two things here will there's there's waking up to the fact that you might not feel good about what your profession is and then there's having a different view toward how you're gonna show up in the work, I hope hopefully less clear, but let me say a few more words and hopefully these words will be clarified. So if you're through the process of meditation maturation. Cogitation waking up to the fact that you you'd garden in history that you just don't feel good about. Well, I think, first, all, that's a that's a positive thing. You're waking up that. I would not urge you to make any sudden moves that would put your family and finance oh jeopardy. But I see, I think, it's a positive thing to start reflecting on and over time. You might see other opportune
It is in other directions in which you can move responsibly, so I don't you know I I just want to stress. If Europe, if you're feeling like you ve, got golden handcuffs and and you're constraint, truly constrained I personally just my opinion here. I would not council you to just do something reckless to leave a career that could somehow leave your family in dire straits financially, but the process of thinking deeply about what else you might do. I think, in my experience, is really constructive so that just one person's view as it pertains to me so yet tv news is a very competitive field. I, however, don't feel that I don't doubts about the importance of what we do, especially now. I really feel that tv news, the news in general, is an incredibly important endeavour, so my doubts have never been about about this field of endeavour about this.
Fashion, really it's more been about my own attitude within it, and so is but more of a personal critique and end Oh, yes, Lily added that slyly just to say there are things about the culture specifically the way, the culturally BC news was when I arrived nineteen years ago, that also put my in eight serve cut throat, hyper competitive, super anxious, my in those innate capacity of mine on steroids, be happily, though, the cultured ABC News has changed dramatically and I think, probably for a variety of reasons. I too have changed in part because I'm keeping up with a culture that I think is vastly healthier than it used to be, and because I've got this thing in my life,
the called meditation which has been really useful, not to mention all you know having married well and getting older and wiser. I hope so. For me, I still am really excited about when I take the escalator into We see news every day. I still have some of that excitement. Much of the play me that I had as a twenty eight year old kid walking in this building for the first time nineteen years ago, almost exactly ninety years ago. but my attitude about how to exist within this environment that has definitely changed. I find myself getting caught up. Much less frequently feelings of sort of beating being competitive with my colleagues are people from other networks feeling jealous feeling schadenfreude at me. Some of that definitely still happens. I'm not it I'm not a perfect it being or anything like that, but I waste a lot less time on that and spend a lot more time on enjoying the substance of the word.
And in recent years have really thanks to the good management here and been able to? focus on things that I really do enjoy. In particular, I love doing we have good morning. America has really fun and I would love doing big substantive stories for Nightline and That's really. My mandate here is to go out and find stories. Big investigations have been doing a lot of stuff on the violence and drug trade in Mexico and in recent years that that's been really interesting. For me to that kind of work is real exciting- and I think focusing on that as opposed to look around all the time at what somebody else is getting- has vastly improved my entire life,
long answer, but I really liked your question so I said a lot. Let's go to the second collar. I damn Ryan from lots Andrew it. I had a question about achievement in meditation as a very achievement, oriented person. I know that some of the absent tool that kind of exist out there what did you run streaks and cannot be shiny, icons and notification? I tell you how you know how much you company minute you down and How many days in a row and all that- and I think The irony in this because the mindfulness has kind of talk need to be getting out so hung up on my achievements and just enjoy things for what they are and not worry so
about this thing, I'm gonna get at the end and that you know each thing doesn't make. You feel any different. You should be more in the moment, though, but it is nice to have a care to run after and kind of something to be held accountable to. So, even though you know, we should just noticed the inherent benefit in that we give I'm actually just meditating not getting those achievements so anyway. I just wanted to throw that out of you and see what you thought, because I find myself missing a day or two and then I want to the street going and then I get bogged down it's a day and then I got a woman's a few days, couldn't sober and now that I miss today anyway, that's gonna migration
in my thoughts on that think through your book than for bringing meditation color to the main stream and demystify it really behind everything again. Thank them. Thank you write another green question. Ok, so let me protein is from two levels. The first level is speaking now is mine from his entrepreneur Agus somebody who. involved in operating a met, one of these meditation apps. So I have. I have mixed feelings about streaks and giving people shiny, icons, etc for keeping up their benediction practice. But overall I think it's good revised it for those who like it, because- and I talk but this many times I won't say too much on it now, but behavior change, inhabit formation are readily difficult, and at the end of the day I think he wouldn't get people to have
an abiding meditation practice. If, if getting them to establish this practice involves providing some dope mean hits in arms of streaks or little digital reward? It's on your phone. I am not entirely against that. I think I can see the case for it, but I do think it needs to be done thoughtfully, and I know this is a discussion we have not infrequently inside the com kinds of our company on this issue, let me approach enough another angle which is as an individual cuz. I think that's really. What you care about more look, I think it is an individual choice. I am somebody who I use. I track a lot of things like my calories and an I didn't. I was started doing the Keller Dragon recently when I turn switched off, we're being a again and got made myself sick at first. Our work on the is to encourage me
the track, my calories and it has made a difference in terms of giving myself healthy, while also staying away from things. I don't I don't really want to eat so I know what it's like that, can get a little crazy about tracking and looking for streaks. The rewards and whatever sort of dope mean hit. You may get from these various acts that track various parts of our behaviour, etc, etc. so I think it's something that that you should you should play with and if you notice yourself getting crazy and re examine. It sounds to me like there's a lot a bit of men. a measure gas creeping in for you here, where you get discouraged, cause you let ST go. And then you, you know say: screw it. I'm not gonna meditate for a couple of days and so is creating a whole sort of inner conversation. That may or may not be helpful. So in that as you might want to experiment with of veto, not tracking anymore, and just
further to what you described about. You know the meditation for the sake of the meditation and if you find it, that's introducing a whole level of if ass, making your practice. Slack in some way of your. If you're slacking off as a consequence, then baby dip. Your toes back into the stricken and see, if you can, manage it more successfully, but you're just gonna hafta plates and individual thing. I know from our users some people like the stuff. Some people don't send people are You and me were on the fence but aware there can make us crazy and I I just think it's it's a process of experimentation, and it is. It goes back to what I said before, but the fact that we are not wired for success when it comes to the setting up of healthy habits, and so we ve gotta play with lots of ways to get us there, hopefully that Self Ryan. I really appreciate the question. I am sorry to have some sort of pound the table. Dogmatic answer for you on this, but I think it's more complex than that argue
Thank you for listening to the ten percent. Have your podcast I'm not saying that in a particular way I am, and our team is incredibly grateful to all of you to listen. And in that Spirit let me just make an ask if you can take a second give us a rating or review or post about us, and so for me all that stuff helps us standing on the various outcast players out there in the rankings, and that means that work, will discover us an awfully interested in innovation and my fullest and make a scene of world so even take second. Do that. I appreciate it. If not. No words also want to thank the team. We ve got some fantastic work on this pod cast, including Ryan Kessler he's ok, it's not the best, but he's. Ok, I'm looking at him through the glass right now, and I want to say to any nice things about a rank Hassler, who is awesome actually and produces the show big things to rights of a single job.
from the temperate and happier side who it does an enormous amount of really hard, and that has to work in these both he and Ryan, are new team and have been just like. I think, really game in many many ways and law parts of who I haven't met because she's, based in Arizona but has been doing a lot of great producing an editing the show so far- and I look forward to meeting you- thank you for all your hard work, thanks have already again for her listening and we'll be back in one week with more vista. a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona I was pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people who were sitting up, Every day, this is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our time in these or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going
from damage. I actually went back to my office inside crying because it is not fair hearing here and making sure that our community have sound faintly Lorraine. This is essentially inside the from the urgency by the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves No one's way, there's always a risk that I could breathe is home to my kids. Are my husband or my parents? Listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast revision, podcast him.