From ABC Ten percent happier vodka mere by Bush is an old in the meditative sets back in the sixtys and Seventys there there's a whole group of Americans who went overseas to Asia, learned at the feet of various contemplative masters of Grozny. My meditations teacher share in Salzburg Mark Epstein. Two people have been on the show were part of that group and mere by Bush was also part of that group and a lot People came home and started teaching and mere. By did that and is now an army, seeing teacher who works in particular with organisations including or stations in higher education law, business journalism, environment, biotech, science, government philanthropy,

teaching meditation unrelated practices to make these people function with me, or mindfulness more compassion, more productivity. She really has is, at the Tipp of his spear of this work, of bring meditation into into a professional context. She's also written anew work along with Rum DAS, the who was also part of this. This vanguard of Americans they showed up in Asia and the sixty to seventy seven annulled. How to meditate search share, from does have written a book called walking each other home, which is about something that in pretty much nobody wants to talk which is death and their re framing death in a really interesting way, as as the ultimate spiritual practice were all afraid of it. I could maybe hubs

for myself, I M afraid of it. I think many people are afraid of it, but their concept is what, if what if it gets, you could approach it with curiosity and, as they say, with love which I think is a fascinating way to look at it. So there's a lot to talk about with mere by about her personal story about mindfulness in the workplace and all of the set some of the controversies the come along with that. We also talk about tell me too has affected the meditation movement and then, of course, a lot about this really thorny, but I think immeasurably profound topic of death, which again, We seem to want to avoid. Better, I think is, is that's not the right move in enlivening to two faced directly: so before I get a mere by just a few notes, as I like to do of of business

One is a on mitigated bit of bragging, but my friend and colleagues at the ten percent happier we just company, we just got a great honour from our friends at Apple, the folks in the Apple app store have given us. The designation of choice among the meditation absent! That's a pretty rare and special. Nor we really sector about that. I want to congratulate phenomenal, intelligent and cool and sadly, for me all younger than me folks, at the ten percent happier app for the incredible work that you all do so that apple. Recognising that is no small deal Also two new meditations up in the in the EP, one Diana Winston. A new morning. It's about how to get your day started. Another with Joseph Gold seem called it's just a mine state and that's a really good one.

I think, that's all the business we're to do their voice mail at the back of the show, as we now do so, let's get to mere. By Now- much more to say about her other than I have already said or or that she can't say better. So, let's just get directly, here's mere by Bush nice to see. You ask me anything Now ass. You anywhere, you may wish you didn't say that proper actually known you. I only know you a little bit ETA, knowing you it as I do. I suspect They told me find from it as well. Let me ask you this: how did you who get into the meditation game in the first place the question Try to make a short answer. No doubt the Zeppa cast you good, oh, can grant with this hot gas are, by definition a rabbit hall, so let's go round effect. Will back in nineteen I was in graduate school from nineteen, sixty seven to seventy, studying what is done,

in English literature, american literature and am but those were, as you probably know like wild years on campuses, and I was very involved in civil rights and at the Anti WAR movement and. It became I was also teaching teaching freshmen English and it became possum, to be there really we there is violence all over the place on police. The police were actually care we're running the campus by the end of the tunnel I was there which camp it was says. Sunni Buffalo, so end but more than that it was the world seemed to be far comport. Basically, we and we couldn t. You know all the men I knew were all fine in one way or another to get out of the draft. I used to live

close to Canada. My job was to drive people smuggle B. Across the border. We I just felt like there have to be a way of life being on this planet, that with senior and and made more sense and had more meaning than what we were going through then that we been Martin Luther king had been killed and Bobby Kennedy was killed me I just celebrating the fiftieth anniversary, not celebrate that commemorated. It was a really hard time so with my dad, partner. Who I later married, he decided to journey and see what we get fine and we it started in Europe and we took those buses have you ever heard about them? They were, they were killed

the green turtle there so long as bus ride in the world from death from London to Delhi two months. And unless you know calm down old Odin learned people were doing that at that time. The bus actually did it breaking down. So we would stay. We state in Tehran for two weeks. This is the great one. Tehran then, a second I am sure, was still in power. We were happened to be there on Thanksgiving and because we were american somebody knew we were there. We were invited to the American Petroleum Club Teheran thanks during dinner. It was definitely a different time. We came through the former Yugoslavia, Turkey, IRAN, Afghanistan, Pakistan and into India places you can never replace, was completely peaceful, while some of them

because they were dictators who, but there was no work going on at all on an people took his into their home. And their mosques in their churches, and it was it was I mean for somebody who is looking for different ways of bee. I was really an amazing trip, but then I aren't you India and am actually no really thought much about India growing up, but I felt at home from the minute I arrived, which was Congress range cuz, I totally on the other side of the world and everything was different, but actually first day I was in Delhi. You appreciate this. Sharon Salzburg on the street and she had been the same school I've been issues, she was an undergraduate. I was a phd student and we didn't know each other there, but we had heard of each other and so we met on the street and she

told me that for the first time ever, a bird is buddhist teacher was teaching a retreat for westerners and down so we were called there and why? Why? Why not go and at that point was a little bit like you know, trying the kind of local thing You know it's like wine and cheese in Paris in hours, why not so we ve. Couple days later we went but Gaia where the Buddha had been, I might move and we moved in the Burmese, we horror and which translated this house of stillness and sharing, and I were where we can could roommates, but because rooms, but we were exempt on the floor and we operator spaces by hanging up? Sorry, you see now on on stirring and there we were- and I had never done-

play like meditation before in literature student. And a grown up in New York. Adaptation in New York City, yet nursing and Riverdale, and then I he we, we sat from I think five or six in the morning, till nine or ten night. What was the teacher get going going? Ok, yeah, AMOS yeah and first it was amazing and really mean I began to see things in a way I had never for I began to see my own mind in ways that ident didn't even think was possible before and alone with teaching the basic in siteman patient practices. He also tortoise loving, kindness and the combination we. It was ten days. The first course, and A combination for me was, I just

so much more, on the planet. When I finish that fresh course, I felt like it was, you know, was right to be here, and I could I don't know what I'm gonna do next, but I I felt a kind of. Radical self, confident about the rightness of being alive that with that and then that's a great phrase. I never use it before, but you really like that a radical self confidence about the rightness of that It's like the subtitle for your nextbook that might come after entirely after the first the days. But what happened was we all? We all not army and probably a few people laugh, but they were- and I don't remember, fifty seventy five of us there and so themselves by was there and Joseph Gold seem and for what

to become yeah lanes. New trade west stir who isn't spear rock in California and round our sincere and that's where I met him. Ok, so cages, he ran thus very famous with some people, not yet round eyes, was in the sixties round us a professor psychology Harvard and he began to or consciousness with TIM Mary through second item and Harvard to leave em if you did and but but that was a time when many people were exploring psychedelic acts and work conferred, who's. There was no There was no real guidance and so on he also an insult in the same way that I did went to Asia. Looking for he said he had taken up, he and timid

again, so many psychedelic sent there was always is, although they, you know learned so much from it. There was always this kind of going up and coming down asked back than I thought gonna be a way in which we can incorporate this into our being and just be that person without always taking drugs. So renders went to India and there he met. This is his trip his first, and I made in my second but there he met a great Indian Saint named named Curly Burma, and he stay with him for quite a while. And there he learned meditation and go. An, but mainly he learned well, he came back and he wrote he gave lectures in New York and those Accession were turned into a book called be here now, which sold two million tonnes. Is because no, it was the

anything it's hard to imagine. Now there were two a billion spiritual books. Now there was nothing- and round! Us Europe be here now and everybody read it so when you met him on that second trip was he already kind of a rock star having come out yet it came out while we were there when we got back second time nineteen. Seventy two couldn't lockdown street with him in New York or any major city he would just like. I would just like come running, walk out. He give it. He gave a talk, we put a hand written note up on flag? older out whenever the street electric Paul and just thousand people will show up. It was crazy and but people are desperate for some help. Many people were,

You know saying things in a different way, having glimpses of of consciousness that they didn't understand, but no one important and They were just like desperate for some guidance and robbed us as the first of what became men teachers, of course, to offer that So what happened in your life, so you go just. Almost serendipitous Lee. You end up on a retreat with with the future. Rock stars of meditation had a whole together and what? What? What did you do that to the trajectory of your life? Well, I I I we're going to stand in for two weeks. I say: for two years? And I then you know learn yoga worth some teachers, and then I stayed with round us

teacher noon Crow Ababa for most of the time he was a hindu teacher is a Hindu, but he didn't teach Hinduism. He did not and he never encourage any of us to become induce, but he taught he famously said Sub ACT or it's all one, and you really talk from that place. He was outside a so I say with him now I came back thinking I got back again soon, but he died. The following year said they were very many westerners who were ever with him, but Danny Gorman, who maybe you know, was well yeah yeah. He was there there, It was an extraordinary group of people who happened to be there. And we ve lost and close since then and interact with each other in all these way, above their often refer to as the jubilee? Yes, no doubt united, that's her

I do now I was, and you ve got the blue down. Well, maybe even not, maybe you don't have the boot island. I was in catholic School from Pre School through Georgetown Graduate School, but It turns out the most of my friend, Mr Rocard, Juba yeah rammed Us so Gatwick. We all came back and we a group of us including Danny and Mark Epstein, was around and am heretical. Who really was the first, integrated into psychiatry, and am I right you Davidson, who was the first to really do neuroscience research and Cliff sir, and has also doing that. Work at it Davis we lived in the Hall of David, Klaus, who at the time was the head of social psychology, Harvard people back industry, we came back and women, Cambridge and David had been the one too

I does but but he had had do it because he was handed the department, but they remain friends, and then David went it. India so hung over vast lived there, and that was like that became the that was signed them base camp. Founding of insight. Meditation society in very very messages yeah, yeah, where's Joseph ensuring have taught all these years and many things happened, but I had had in the unfolding. I've had a baby hadn't. So I couldn't in those years. The idea of meditation and babies and his good and gather I'm sure you can prove that with a three year. I don't see how in easy Sadie without another. My son is the least meditative do not work, but what I mean

later on tick, not HANS started, having retreats where there would be children, they wouldn't be in the meditation home, but they'd be doing the child version of dry. Flowers and putting love in each pedal gotcha, but in those years and everybody you know most people at that time, going to India like rain after college or it or younger rivers pretty young. I had been. I had already been married and divorced back to graduate school so older than everybody little this child everybody fat I was and am so my then husband and I started a business, because we wanted to integrate meditated practices. Awareness values into a business setting, and this was before any of the even places like

Ben Jerry's Embody shop and you know, but it did. We, it was called illuminations and appreciate it got. It was crazy. We we do not think that business and we were silk screaming where's. Don't screening, mandalas dollars from all the different traditions on on plastic, with sticky back and they went on windows and it turned out Klaus, who is the Father motivation, psychology said there was filling active need of people. People just started like you know, because men Buddhists pursue visa in and they left their root religions and our exploring all these things and said these are symbols from those traditions. There no other spiritual paraphernalia at the top, and so it was great just took off and, like everybody had one

we made. We so screen rainbows and as you, ursule symbol of peace and harmony, and I mean We saw millions of them and then The somewhere I remembered was. Then we made stickers of all these thanks in and then girl, started collecting stickers and yet like eleven year old girls and so one night down rather ended the seven o clock news with us. This is M gap because it still They should become this big thing went. The part I was always really most interested in was the integration of these practices and and perspectives into the workplace, and it was very interesting and we really learned a lot and It ended in the eighties. Early eighties. I think why cassettes It was gone well because whelp, different races, One was that was

at a time when an American, the bigger com, Then he started noticing that we were showing a lot of stuff, and so they were It deserves our stuff too, and they but it was just when people are starting to manufacture in China and they were that day. Came out with whole lines that they spent like attend the recent where we were, we were printing in Boston and in was pretty much Is this a gift business by that time in one season. It they're just the bottom fella we ve been such such good. We are trying to create awaken company. So we tribute to all the profits at the end of the year to the employees, because you remember that Mark sent that you're all they did the work right, but then winning came time to survive a difficult time because we ve never had a difficult time we didn't really have enough. Detained earnings now. So what does that say

the possibility for awaken businesses? Oh there are can run and awaken. Businesses have to be a little more prudent. Temporary worker will say more about that. That this is where we may many of us work. Yes, men. I feel we workin and a weakened environment. How no you ve done all you worked with Google and yeah. What that's really that was but allow me to just I kinda Google and feel at home right away and able to do that. Were search inside yourself, searches out yourself is their programme. Guess yeah! It's the most computer program. Ever of course, every offered at Google. And it's the same basic practices of you and a lot of more compassion. And kindness practices and some other systems have because they felt that the juniors needed that stage and more of our common

vision is on the way after this, when it two hiring you don't have time to waste. You need help getting to your short list of qualified candidates fast. That's why you need indeed Dotcom get started today at indeed dot com, slash, podcast, that's indeed doc slash podcast? he said at last. I got question was so a former guess on this podcast found Research is had yourself, bang regionally. The step down. There were some me to complaints. Again, I don't know the details of what What is that done to the organization to Google too silly searches, I'd yourself, worthily, withering, Google, it's it's! It He had left her younger ends surgeons hide yourself Leadership Institute. We called it which, because The acronym is silly because a goose

everybody likes to serve play around yams part of their culture, be playful he was chairman of the board there. Although this would happen, happen. While he was a google- and you know I it's it's- made me think. A lot about kind of coal collision over there. Here, as we watched a number of teachers come from all over Asia to this country, to teach people and even these teachers who had had you know the best Training quote Newberry many of them got involved in what we call me two way and I felt like men having, oh, I don't really know, but you know I just met with a group of young chinese entrepreneurs- these-

girlfriend single child family has been very, is put so much pressure, I'm the child and then becomes a grown up to perform and be successful, and, men was, you know he did really wound school, and then he got to Google and is was a really smart engineer and do great things there Then we develop search inside yourself in it started. Coming this like very cool thing, that everybody wants to be partners everyone, but many people want to be part of, and what the rest search inside your server successful Google was that we would we kind of figured out was that a spy those early employees, now it's dead you know, I never have more business people involved and to him. But in the beginning They were mostly all really young. Really

smart, really competitive and had been in front of their screens, their whole lives and so what they. What they needed work. They weren't good. That was self awareness and awareness of others, and That's why we built in so much some compassion practising loving kindness and mindful listening and things like that, because they were raided algorithms once they had to start working and teams. They didn't those skills as much- and I think that it It all happened so fast. I mean I don't know that this is true, but I feel like men, probably probably others got, it was confusing, There were lots there weren't, so many women are cocoa and some of it who is ones wandering part of,

just find yourselves and were around and I think Meng. Didn't really know Oh how to quite Para. Handle all that that I haven't said that and I dont know that time. You talk to him, but not like that, but because I think it's bigger than that. I think that it's been. It's been a hard adjustment for a lot of Live young people in Silicon Valley who have all this has happened and of course they are. They all have. You know, in all those original engineers have so much money. They never have to work again, you Know- and it just I think it's really confusing, but I did well what I found you know I I I back to him better, but we haven't had a real conversation, but but I guess we stepping away from the details of the case. I just found it to be old, dishearten

because one would imagine that bringing my fulness and compassion into the workplace would we have, salutary effect on sexual harassment, then, and everything it does right, but that, but this is it. This is a case that would raise questions about, of course, of course. It does, and I mean I remember after we'd all been back here and founded centres and been meditating. For I think thirty years it was and I remember I was at the mountain monastery teaching something and someone Cautiously raised his hand, and he said I I just I ask you something out how goods let me be meditating for thirty years and be varied, compassionate something that happened. Obviously, you know we're pretty. I mean I say that sometimes like, as throw a lying near. Had happened.

She'd be meditating hours, time and act like that, but in fact it we're complicated and And were really good at deluding ourselves in and it takes a long time to see everything we're attached to and ways in which were behaving unconsciously mean a long time around us and I Talk about it in the book. You know we ve been doing it for so long and still things arise have perfect behaviour. So, let's talk about the book since you very skilful brought us there. What is this new book? Ok its com, walking each other home and then subtitle is conversations on living come about. It came about because,

We notice that the boomers we're getting older and round doesn't notice that he didn't have do much time left and that we notice that you no more people were talking about dying and an course were He too aware of the ways when she that culture, we don't talk about it and so the first at first. I thought We take everything around I had written a ready and start writing about and be here now and at a time, pull together in this would be like the words of Rome thy I'm not dying, but What he said, no, I want to do it together. Ok, I said: ok I'll, write, an introduction and that you and me in this world and and put all your stuff together and then he said we did and then round us said

went to see him again. He said I, like your part better than my point the boys and said it and read it so many times is tired of it. So but then and loved us twenty years. You how to make a massive stroke and, from his recovered, amazingly armies, paralyzed on one side, and in a wheelchair. But his mind, is more clear than ever, and I mean his heartful presence is more there remain ever, but here a and end with Frazier it doesnt affect your. Cooking brain, but it affects the way in which you are able to express what you're thinking for you. You know the word. You knows

you're trying to expressly, he can't get the work ass, so sometimes in drugs man, it is like a closet of customs or and that or clothing? And then he's got the idea, and then you goes into the into the closet, decide what to wear how to say it, and sometimes it takes a long time so that keeps him from really doing a lot of lecturing and can't like right in paragraphs linking used to so, but he still, learning any still having new insights, you're, amazing and so much So that comes out in conversation was close friends, and so we thought maybe we could try that and it just from the first day just flowed. Great so now joined. It is its conversations between us and them

every voice can written like a memoir, a memoir, a visiting rammed us I'm talking about. Dying, and then we integrate some of his past writing. I'll say before we talked about That subject, I went back and read this passage and then draw that in that way and I'm yeah we're beautifully and we so we treated everything from our fear, all of fear of dying to all where, to the very practical part of how We went through it with him how he wants to die, you known and how where he wants his ashes to go and does, We want music Gus he's dying. We went through all like practical things. Are actually really good for older people to do before they die. Will you could argue that its act maybe even good for people who are kettle yeah. I mean it's really good for me,

who aren't that ought to think about it and and talk about it and look at in a look of the places where we are like holding on, because the easier you become with it, the the more, present you are right now and and run This makes a connection between presence openness and lack of fear and loving that increase stating that space you allow love to arise and then all your relationships become more loving. Are that sounds great, but how do you do that? There are practices, turns out first of all, you bringing into awareness and everyday awareness so that you Jeff bring death and every yes yeah, there's a great little app called weak crook The founder has been on this part, no kidding us

I have it on my own. I really want to send my book. It is great. So an he's picked up on you know I am practice from one tradition or I think Burmese, but anyhow that you should bring. Death into your awareness five times a day and said there, five phrases are gonna quotes from people bout death gesture. I mean that. You can tell yourself I'm gonna just every day, for a minute- or so I'm gonna just think about it, but so. There are practices that about letting go which you We know about the basic inside practices of seeing the training, to see what is arising in your mind, and so, if you start thinking about death or It happens that someone you love, it's just died or is going to die, or- diagnosed with something terminal or

you know all the way to return about pets dying the ways of death. Museum to our lives or even death and distance of people and other. Parts of the world. But death is, is there and then you sit? when the MC, what arises in your own mind about that and, What fears you have? What we, then reveals like what you're holding onto in this life and in there ways in which you can let go the attachment. You know it's usually not very and when she usually the people. You lie, you know, and so it's not that you're gonna let them go. Out of your life, but that you like that being need for them to be a certain way for you to be there with them in a certain way, and that link opens up a kind of space for to be my living and to know

just kind of relax into the reality that we are all going to die. Why would they make you more loving me cause if you, because at a time when you been like really afraid there, there's that kind of it's closed and tight. And and self centered. Yes and for good reason. I mean in order to defend yourself from whenever you're afraid of, but in much as you're afraid. What no space there d be open, interred. Somebody else said that their relate it. Most of us, don't think about death much, but I think the fear of death, so obviously drives us an absolutely how absolutely. This includes related to all the other fears Amin. Finally, why do we fear anything that we fear You know it finally gets down to work

and I even keeps even keep stripping away what it is in some oh, I think so. Well, I'm not afraid of death, but I I just I'm afraid it will be painful at the end and that's different that is really now, especially now reaching their pain and pain, management and so on, and that that for most people now, isn't one pain around dying because the manager yeah I mean I'm a volunteer and a hospice in I've talked about this only my do yeah. Well the icy people in some pain, but they do a very good job of managing it and it's I find that comforting I wouldn't say that I'm not afraid of death anymore yeah, we'll do you see fit. And the people you are with their it

trusting some people at least one one case in particular, woman, who I was sitting with was very scared. I couldn't we're in the bed. She had there's a name for this condition. She was just completely agitated and anxious, and she kept trying to get up and she was just always really. Nervous in Munich. Just asked me to shift your position or sit chain where I'm sitting in that was very tough yeah but then others Yama resetting with his guy, and he said he started, and I think you need a spiritual background was interesting. What is said something that would fit right in the Buddhist teacher- that as he got older, he started to feel something part of something larger. You know that it's just sit here, yeah. Well, I think that awaits poster work. Doesn't always you know

and you know others is one guy who I I've been. There have been there for couple years and- and I probably would have- I was part of a programme in hospice training Programme and We went for nine months and I would ended it after nine months, but this is one guy in their Ronnie who I don't think he's gonna die. And he's arson and would become very close, and so I go back mainly just hang out with him and we talk a lot about. Well often, we just play video games, but though we will we talk and as well and yet he doesn't express a lot of fear about it. You know he has chronic shortness of breath and that scare Inga, but he's got a funny. He's got a new neighbor who younger arise fifties and he has get prostate cancer in mad. I think that that, He had gone to the doktor earlier. What would have been managed and he's he's

earlier earlier in the stages of grief, he hasn't got to acceptance, answers interesting to talk to him and in the two it's are the three of us. Wasn't yesterday the three of us were hanging out together and yet trusting. Think Ronnie is much more relaxed and this guy, the other than new guy's name. I don't wanna name is even talk about him publicly before, but but he was more agitated. So I see this spectrum yeah yeah, when we talk about regrets and how ya doing Let's make it really difficult and me em, times and so, it's obvious. It is good good to let go of regrets which is not to say that we all couldn't have done some things better, but we didn't so unkind of accepting that and then you know, then, if there's something to be done and policies are forgiveness her? Whenever that you do that, but to leg

go of it as something you'd like deeply regret, not taking care of yourself. It's really good practice to go through that, and let go of that whenever you can, because it does. I watch people with regrets. Try, Dian, Diana's, really not treated Ipod Die it is really hard, but hospice work, one of the things it went when I turned seventy, I thought well now I guess I'm gonna. Somehow we could. Sir, to knowing about dying but doesn't happen that way. It now and I. So one of our questions was: how do we learn about dying in a culture where it would really celebrates not just life but young life and we're we're

dying, is largely hidden away, not happening at home. So much so I'm just has done love hospice work too, and he darted in the eighties during AIDS epidemic, and he actually it so fun running this book, because I've known him all these years and I thought I knew every single thing about him, but he he's gay that I'd never knew a yeah, but he said that, but but he grew up so his eighty seven now so he grew up in the thirties and forty eight and fifty is now when which is which is given name Richard Richard Albert Airports. I grew up in a father was a wealthy industrialists, yeah shit, I'm lost, and yes, we are. We Upwardly mobile present of the New York Haven, railroad random

documentary about him call fears grace? Oh, it was really again and there's a newer documentary on now going home, yeah yeah, that nets set at the time in the book is so it's really sweet to say short and lovely, but yeah, so he can grew up in that family. I mean he became a fall as the psychology of harmony but his family, his mother, even rally He wasn't a doctor in you as a lawyer, so as his brothers or lawyers and business, and so she never sure. I said psychology is little soft, so he in growing up and he was in prep school and the boys were brutal, to him, and he always he struggled with with that in ways. It is different. Now now fine different and am but when you said, when we read in the book was that housing

into he talks about being people who are dying, doing hospice worker other or being with family or friends. Is one of the ways in which we really get more familiar with dying is being with people who are dying. How did he get tell into in the eighties some asked him to sit with someone who is dying of AIDS and he'd. He did because, He was already out as gay and he was a spiritual teacher, so he d and then he sat with quite a few people AIDS. And, as you know, many people died during that time and numb he said he said who is so drawn to them being in new.

Wanted to get close to him because he was so intimate any said they were, they were dying, they were afraid of being gay, but they were afraid of dying. I was afraid of dying, but I was pretty nourishment being gay salaries For me, it was a real turning point in doing that. Work with aid but so he'd never said that to me before us now is interesting, but he talks in the book about how we talk together about people we ve known who we been worthwhile. They died and in what you learn from that when he talks about as it teaching for people who are doing with one person or many being a loving rock that Europe

air if, if you don't have any medical responsibilities or other responsibilities, you're just there sitting, not judging not trying to tell them- what it's gonna be like after they die. Not. Being there being loving, being maybe holding hands or whatever is being called for in the moment, maybe attaching a video game, but just being there so that the die person, knows it's all: ok and I'm being held by love and I need to know now that that rest. I resonate with that for sure I bet so Are you where are you? Are you afraid of death this book will I'm so much less. I wasn't. I didn't think I was desperately afraid workers in I've done lots of practice around it and on but I am

My sister who died two years ago and I went through changes around it them, so I thought it was pretty cool, but having these conversations for a long time and took his men to yours, direct, but but. He was in Maui an army Massachusetts and I go back and forth them with renewed conversation, but I found than just talking about it and you reading about it. Some, but mainly just these conversations made it. The process of thinking talking about it just sing, fell away and I feel. Now I dont What will come up when it happens, I could have all kinds of fear setter totally wrong. This avenue glimpsed, but I feel pretty easy about it now and and I'm hoping that that this book were too

is a conversation in it from people who have read it so far have told me that kind of drives you into the conversations we set. This It's as if you're in the room, as I said, is written in a memoir style, so they did help people familiar in a different way. The set enjoy each like by two pages. Each and his illness beautifully illustrated so it's as easy arranges could pay for the subject of what would you say to him in What would you say, the younger people about about the importance of thinking about death, because I dont think people who aren't more served by the actual aerial charts more profit Malta. The end I think about this door. Do I think

people who are younger, think about the didn't the need for it. Yeah, yes and round US health care Giver who is in his twenties, and we brought him into the conversation and some other younger people also and I remembered that there is a time some years ago and I was bill. Myers did a series called, I was called. I thought half of all drivers from dying on our in terms one thing that not on your body. Is really more about like a patient, what sent movement link control of how you're gonna die issues right, yeah candor so I was working with his production crew. And with Frank US necessity. Probing know him: he wrote a book yeah skull,

I've invitations he's done. He ran the Zen hospice in San Francisco for years on end We were doing some work, the burden, Jim Crow, because we knew that it was one of those series that took on year that film and we know that some of the people they were filming and talking to a working less who were in hospice, were die while they were doing it and they were mostly young guys. You know- and we wanted to help them be prepared for wet motion may be going through other are making a serious about dying, so we taught them some thanks. What have I done? time. I was said one night I went to, my son, who is a student and why you then, so he really was nineteen twenty, and I too

Mine is doing this and he seemed really bored in like a serious with Bill Myers on all people dying. I had no injures, ok um. What is death mean to you and he said he said AIDS guns in the environment. We have talked about and when he said it, I realise that yeah I mean son. You know as part of our awareness, no matter However, we are how we're living and in we one night around the table. I put just, but we had a conversation about people's first awareness of death and for some it was grandparents dying. But usually they just disappeared.

Always the children the body and we shouldn't talk about death and four summit with pets dying and how, in most cases, nobody ever explain to them. What? What open and how that would relate to them dire. Their parents dying and I M so. Go whipped. We talked about the importance of in whatever way is lead natural, inappropriate, being open about it at whatever age people are on the way to talk about what my son he's three, we lost a cat tat, we just had say Gus got. My wife came up with a good formulation. He got sick and didn't better so yeah that he grasped now now when my mom's catches died and he's a girl case, whereas debt yeah yeah,

That's the first for so many children with Harry Miser. My granddaughter was around that age. She said I am my sister had died and I said something like well I'm getting old and in dollars? I stared my sister died yak couple of years ago, but and dies, and I suppose you know I'm getting old and dahlia said I'm a not old, and I said- But what is old today to you- and she said all this when you get broken and you can't get fixed, just wait, you have broken any couldn't. During that should have asked you but didn't. Will you write a lot about grieving which, even if you are not thinking about death, comes on all of us and them I'm just there. Some vision,

good thoughts, agreeing in there and down that can be helpful to anybody here. I think that for just ordinary folks you know that we all need to bring it into our awareness and for people working with the aging and dying wish. You know probably really helpful and you re is possible for ordinary folks to come to a sort of a level of comfort with him permanence at his as it applies to everyone, we love and ourselves You're right I mean it is the ultimate impermanent. Well, what do you think you ve been managed yeah. I wouldn't say that I have achieved it the process. And part of it is a natural process that I we touched on this earlier- that as you get closer to death, I think you see for many people, you just naturally get more comfortable with it. But

my friend Jeff Warrant, Z, meditation you're, my age talks about ring the wisdom of old age into the middle of your life, and so I am intrigue by that retains the what you're doing yeah I mean my experience in meditation, which is the same practices that I know at least you started out joint stolen. I thought I D. You know you get glimpses of impermanent. I mean You can watch and feel the process of in your own body and it in your mind and it becomes. You just understand it as part of the unfolding, even though, of course you're still it. Two things not changing whatever or changing in a way that you want them to change so yeah. I think it's I mean I

that as human sense that waking up asked it. Who is recognising both the impermanence of everything and the interconnection of everything can and that this is. We don't need it. With the pressure on our selves? They have it happen overnight, exhaust gas on it that its, I think, we're careless of us. Was it justice first Buckley called the gradual unfolding bets it happens. I mean for somebody we'll get link experience, you know some radical experience and shakes everything up and, and then they ceased. Something in the get, but mostly its it. It's a granted, gradual unfolding mental, it's good to start now before we go just keep But the book and let us nowhere else- we can plug everything you want to plug likeable were hungry. I your website and anything a certain site. Please give us the whole thanks. Okay, the book is called

blocking each other home conversations, unloving and dying, published by sounds true. You can get it from them. You can get it from Amazon is the number one best seller and Amazon's books and spirituality right now and numb you can, an IRAN does. This website is rammed US dot org, even if you by the book in your curious about some of this, lots of videos and teachings of all kinds on that site website is mere my bush dot com and that'll get you started reach out. Thank you nearby, Bush big thanks to her. For that conversation, I really enjoyed it. I hope he did to. Let's do some voice mouse, here's them!

one idea and my name is lagging and I live in an hour where Miss again. I then listen to your partner for the past six months, though, and I really enjoyed, I got into meditation prices around that same time and have been pretty consistent about doing about ten minutes per day in the morning, and I recently to the episode with you and they are harassed and SAM mentioned, that he thought you didn't really meditate into it. You have gone to a medication or treat, and since then he has planted this kernel of doubt in my mind that what I'm doing really matter or is helpful, laboriously real meditation and it's kind of spoiling by that exists in practice to be honest speeches, I feel I got this uncertain, what I'm getting out of it. I dont you quickly refuted there on the stage when you commented on what he has said, but it is still this bothering me, and so I wanted to know if you hadn't advice on how to move past.

In the hope of a kind of a reassure me that this ten minutes a day really does make a difference in one's life. Thanks, for my sake, really appreciate, are you done by ok? I'm really glad you asked me this. Really sorry that you're dealing with doubt because doubt not doubt in the priority of em in debt. In some context, doubt is really positive and I'm a journalist scepticism endowed is really important, but this kind of doubt. Identified by a guy known as the Buddha. Several millennia go as one of the five classic hindrances to meditation. This kind of quicksand of of self doubt corrosive self doubt? Am I doing this right? Is it making a difference? Is he's just kryptonite and add at so I hate to think

that salmon. I may have added to it unnecessarily because often there for no reason whatsoever and and and now you have ostensibly a reason. So let me just take it off the table entirely. Your meditation This is excellent and in fact, at the high end of the range of what I recommend for people, I always you know what I, what I say to people is five to ten minutes a day would be a great habit. That's what my winning gambit you already at the high and that range, but what I often revert back to after saying that is, if you did one minute a day daily issue, that too would be great We have less recognise starting habits. Its incredibly

when I say this all the time, so you are deriving many of the advertised benefits of meditation at the level you are currently doing it and if he never increase, that is totally fine. You were doing great, yes, The retreats can be super valuable, but that is in no way a diminishment of what you are doing a maybe maybe an analogy would look that there could be useful would be this many of us exercise and we do you know two or three four days a week. We do thirty minutes, cardio, that's really good for us. We should feel good that we have that kind of exercise practice. Some people do iron man or triathlon. That does not negate the value of your thirty minutes of cardio three to four five times a week. It didn't that's just a different thing that other people are doing, which is also

awesome, but it it is. It doesn't mean that what you're doing isn't also awesome. Another thing to say everybody's mind is different, so if you're Lebron James and you're doing just a little bit of cardio once in a while, will your baseline athletic ability is so high They are probably fine. If you're me, you need to do a lot more exercise, because I am you can see me, but I'm not Lebron James or to say so. The same is true of the mind. Some people really need. I am not a run James and might I need to do quite a bit of mental training. My baseline levels of concentration and friendliness are not that high level to say- and yours may be- rather we don't know each other Maggie yet, but yours may be incredibly high, don't know, and

you may be getting as much out of ten day ten minutes a day as some people get by doing meditation retreat just based on what you're in a buddhist context, my pickled spiritual faculties. Already you know what they're real levels of your spiritual faculties already are, in other words, which are basic. You know, sir, your mere mental wiring is so I really don't want. I really hope that this doubt can diminish the time, if not evaporate entirely, because exploring the mine for ten minutes a day can take you very far and you're already there in many ways as you want to go further at some point by going on retreat rate, but it is by no means a must have gone Maggie. Don't let me in SAM get your head: let's go to the next voicemail

hey then, but the Sherman everything you ve done. A question is about thinking about thinking for medication and realise that we have been thinking without knowing never thinking that magical aha moment. At that point, we're talk to compassionately in gently returned the bright, but sometimes I find that during a realization. I wonder for the thought itself. Where did it come from? What is it would be helpful if I'm gonna get carried away again? Should we even try along the thought when we dataset heckler responsibly approach taking that thinking during that match coming they too much like I did, is just one guys opinion and, as I said before, him now were now in the process of recruiting. Promises can happen soon recruit actual meditation teachers to come on an answer. These questions adds that have just stick in you and me, but here's here's with it

my experience, I do not spend time thinking about thinking that I don't want to tell you should never do. That is about breaking the rules. If you do, I don't I don't know, but I don't know if I want to think about thinking I'll do it. I got plenty of time to think just walkin around sitting in the back of a cab whatever it is. However, there is a move you can make with thinking that I have found again, I'm just speaking based on my experience here, that I have found to be really white meaningful in a meditative sense, which is to look for who is thinking so thought comes up, comes out of I was out from underneath its rock and you just look look who's. The thinker you do. The same thing would sounds whose hearing this event,

It set you into usually offer just for like a neck, no second or two into a really interesting space like seeing that in some ways you there's nobody home here that have used this raise before that there's this guy is sound a little grandiose, but my experience. This is actually not a bad description of reality, which is this all there is here. Is this yawning chasm of pure knowing you can't find the owner and that is thrown you up against a fundamental mystery of the universe and I'm not talkin like them that getting stone and plain dungeons dragons. Here I am. This is me wearing a suit and a journalist guy the areas, the mystery of consciousness is one of the fundamental mysteries.

Of the universe. We know that we know things others. We know that eight, that we are aware that we have just had a thought we know were hearing a sound. We, you know your hearing, my voice right now. But we don't know who is knowing it, you listen for what or who is. Hearing what I'm saying right now. You won't find it, but the act of looking from a contemplative standpoint is said to be really fruitful and really interesting. So that's what I would recommend again near yuri you're, getting your meditation advice from a morning

Elvis ECHO here should tell take it for whatever its worth and, as I said, eventual we're gonna have actual meditation teachers, given the advice here, but my my move it when, when I notice I've I've lapsed into what's been call d, think hole is too is to either ignatyevna salute the thinking and go back to the breath or whatever my object focuses or to take a moment say to look for you know who's whose doing this thinking and an even a step, further who's asking the quest Because, again, just rose you up against this, when I could tell in arguable fact that there's nobody here, nothing, you can claim as you or yours, which is just Inexhaustibly interesting and my experience all right. Thank you for both for your questions. I read

it proceeded. Thank you all for listening to the show. I really mean that really appreciate that the fact that I have a pot passes over that at I love it really prepared that you all listen, and I want to thank the folks were involved, but MR gather Susie lose working. The board's today at Ryan Kessler is the primary producers for the show Samuel Johns. Who is ten percent happier, employee and really helps, is help me get my act together, run up our game. Here are generally in many specific and ways, and I thank him as well. So thank you to all all devotion, work. And this and one last request. I know you hear every Pike S her in a world say this, but there's a reason why we do if you have a second to give us a real being or review order, chairperson and social media that actually really helps us with the rankings on the various. I guess players, and that means more people find us

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