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#187: Is Enlightenment Possible for Regular People, Daniel M. Ingram

Daniel M. Ingram sparked controversy in the Buddhist world when he declared himself to be an arahat, the term commonly used for a person who has reached the final stage of enlightenment. In this week's episode, Ingram responds to his critics and details what he experienced during the course of this journey. He also talks about his book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, which aims to help people navigate their path to enlightenment, which he insists is an attainable goal for any of us. The Plug Zone Website: http://integrateddaniel.info/ Book: https://www.mctb.org/ Twitter: @danielmingram Additional sites: https://firekasina.org/ https://www.dharmaoverground.org ***VOICEMAILS*** Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail: 646-883-8326
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier Vodka Dan. I want start off this translate controversial episode story about seven years ago. I was in the middle of ready percent happier, and I went on what was then my second silent meditation retreat owes at the insight. Meditation society in central messages and before the retreat officially began, they served a lunch and after the lunch yours was to go into silence. So there you are allowed to talk after this lunch, but at lunch We could talk about sit next. This young guy, smart young. I think it's just graduated from Yale. He was really intense and serious about meditation and I think- it just finished him like a month fond or a six week, long retreat and was rolling straightened this one and at one point
after getting to know each other a little bit. He lowered his voice and says: have you heard of Daniel Ingram I said no nearer to him, who is he? Still speaking, got over the lowered voice he said, he's an emergency room doktor from Alabama who claims he's in our hunt or are hot. There are two ways to pronounce that word. That word is traditionally used to describe a fully enlightened being. this kid, then goes on to say: don't mention into the teachers they get really upset. So I was immediately Dree led the hearsay of apparently a dogma controversy which seems like it might be a contradiction in terms declaring yourself to be an hour, hunt or even turkey at all about your with What stage of enlightenment your at is immensely controversial in buddhist circles, the Buddha, if our times
and it specifically barred Alvis monks and nuns from declaring their levels of meditative attainment. Although the Buddha, we should say, talked it over about how enlightened he was. But I knew he was the Buddha anyway. It's considered to be of verboten, fur monks and nuns and for the rest of us, it's considered to be bad form at the very least, an for teachers, it's considered to be perhaps damaging, Do your students to say how do you know what stage? You are in the in the path toward enlightenment because it can provoke something that very common among western meditated, which is striving and competence So traditionally, in western meditation circles there over they try to be pretty careful about how, or even whether they talk about the stages of insight or the stages of enlightenment, to be clear for a second here before I get back to Daniel
We're talking about a very specific school of meditation. Are many schools and meditation in many maps to stages toward enlightenment, but in the past the our incite tradition there are. There sounds a little bit like dungeons and dragons, but there are four stages towards enlightenment: one is the stream enter second is the once return. Than non return her and then our hunt or our hot, depending on how you gonna pronounced the word. So I, of course you know view all of this with a certain amount of ironic distance, especially at this time, was already temperate and happier. I was pretty deeply practical that, unlike most even possible, but I was really intrigued by the fact that you, with this emergency room, doktor, clearly a sane, highly functioning individual walking around talking about how he's an hour had in fact had written a whole book called mastering the cord teachings of the Buddha, about how he was an hour had and how you could become one to Georgia,
when and read this book after the retrieves. Like the first thing I did after I got out a retreat at first, I was like this is: a little insane, but based on the cover, it was actually a pdf that he, u can print out for free. There was a self published, then you can order an Amazon account to pay a little bit of money, but where you can just he was giving it away for free, and it was so. I thought I'd write it out of my computer and they cover as this kind of homemade art, with some meditating guy with you know, laser beams coming out of his solar plexus. I thought this is going to be drunk, but then I read the book and while it's over the top in some ways. At least this adoration of it I say he's I should say, he's gone on to edit it, but this adoration of the book low these many years was pretty over the top and and provocative and he's really criticising western. Dharuma teachers for hiding the ball in his view on enlightenment. He feels that this
Oh, oh America, that western meditation teachers have adopted over this serve code of silence over the stages of enlightenment is disempowering that meditation, that enlightenment is doable for regular people and he did and so he went goes on to tell you the whole story and how you can do it cannot cookbook style. Still after reading the book thought is this guy crazy. I don't know, and then I a conversation with about him about him with my friend Doktor Judd Brewer, who is a narrow scientist at that point he was at Yale now. Is it brown he's done a lot of work and looking at what meditation does to the brain Judge said the same thing like I at first. I thought I looked at the book as it no way this guy's nuts, but then I read the book he this agenda. I read the book, and I realize you really smart, which is what I had relies too from reading the book and then Judd took it One step further Judd actually put Daniels brain
in an mri. He was doing a study at this point of advance meditated and he found it Daniels Brain who was really different an interesting. It was clear that the EU here was, somebody who had done an immense amount of meditation now you can't he couldn't verify that he was an hour hunter widow. But clearly something's going on with this guy. after learning all that went out in and went to a conference. Where heard he was speaking and I met him and I found him to be immensely likeable and use not you're about to hear him he's not what you would expect an allegedly enlightened being with sound, like he's volubly, quite a character, he's not afraid of provoking controversy in being credit, but I really liked him alive to this day. Consider him to be a friend, and I had. I ended up writing a whole chapter in ten percent happier about the issue of in life That was kind of starring Daniel ended of cutting it. At the end, because I thought no. Actually, this is probably a separate book which already at some future date, but I
very pleased to have Daniel on the show. Finally, he doesn't do at a media he's a little bit. Media shy or traditionally has been some happy that he came on. This is fascinating discussion. I want to say we worried. I've been here were not doing voicemail this week, because there is more than enough meditative country, in in this show, but we are looking for voicemail, so I shall remain the show sixty four thousand six hundred and eighty three eight hundred and thirty, two six hundred and sixty four six hundred and eighty three eight thousand three hundred and twenty six SM the number to leave us a voice mail, and it's in the show notes as well enough for me talking here, go here's January room without asking to see you again grace in you as well. How is loves you? where shall we start? What sister were always start which, as you know, how did you get interested in meditation so ahead? few meditation experiences when I was a kid. Where am I remember owners, but
Three and a half years old man, others by the house. We were living in at the time were out. This lay down my parents down comforter downstairs in their bedroom and a start breathing. And I will breathe more and more slowly and I would get more and more peaceful and get these very pleasant feelings. And then I would get sort of very economist feelings. I wouldn't have called them now when I was a kid just really nice thing I used to do and So that's the subtle, weird thing it turns out. That's not unusual, like I'm not saying like ham, was word special personal. Actually, if you ask people question reasonable number of people actually had some kind of experience as a kid they kind of forgot about or got extinguished by something on an over these things go and reading. Everett later, so that thousand first little with that again little weird, but not that unusual. I have a four year old around the house. I have a hard time. Imagine him doing what you described Maybe I don't know his interior life has. I think, as I do as well as I think I do.
So for some reason my memories go way back. I can remember all kinds of things from when I was a kid. I don't I don't know you might be surprised at the most. In my of my three and a half year old life, I was very much a three and a half your head except for this one- where little thing there is. I don't think anything else unusual about me and so then, when I was in years, ten years old, I went this Weird Hippy Quaker School, and actually what secondary? Fourth, greater, we would sit meditation for ten minutes. Every morning. The Carolina friend School North Carolina, Durham and I found it really irritating and annoying thing were to signify Teghmus ten, that there is no technical guidance or anything is just a Quaker thing. You sit in silence and see what happens
so that got me at least some basic discipline cuz. We did that every day, so I was doing- and I know, however, many hours that is reasonable number for KEN and then fourth grade got to take an elective. Again. It was a weird hippie. Score was kind of called close encounters, which was about like weird analogue synthesizers. This is like nineteen, seventy, nine inessa synthesizer than a valley. Knobs. Dials kind like the new ones. Do today is counts, retro fat of analogue, but it was amazing to play on this thing unexplained like how the synthesizer worked, and then we did always guided meditations. Where, like we would, Do the thing where you like: squeeze your toe then relax them visualize warm light coming at its ways, your feet and relax them on and we get her whole body and do that kind of stuff, and I was really neat. I just thought that was so cool like this is so much better than most of what I was doing in school and that's a lot of
and we were like visualize yourselves, getting really big, unlike bigger and bigger, like as big as the room as because the school as big as the city is because the planet is because the universe and then we'll get smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, swallowed down too, were like an item, and then we would like visual It's crawling around inside your body and seeing what your toes feel I can see what your feet feel. I can, if you see, find anything it seems like an history fixing you can just fix it cuz. You know how to fix things as those interesting, weird visualization exit exercises from some hippy in nineteen seven, his late mountain seventies and then I've been having fine dream. Since I was a kid- and I remember my first, when I was five years old. In the first time ever flu really amazing deifying dreams. By the way I the to have five rooms where they really call. Yes, yes, you now right and men for plenty of listeners do too and I just thought these were often, and I have no idea where I got this idea. I site where I got the idea from two then, when I was about forty,
Fifteen years old, I thought why want more flying dreams, maybe I'll just vision, wise flying between like fifty foot. You know why, billiard balls in space before I go to sleep for a while, and maybe I'll have more flying dreams. Well, did you just came up with literally, I cannot there's nothing like I'm proud of them. back like what has come from nobody, urban, suburban Carolina is like one thousand nine hundred and eighty three or something I have no access to meditation anything except the exercises I done like four years before or five years before, I'm not sure or something like that and Some, yes, I just decided to do Visualization exercise- and I was really Firstly, that a conventional eyes wide kind of never noticed that it was hard to visualize that I can very wise, very well, but any review retried visualize anything and visualize. It really! Well it really. It's really hard right, really challenging to actually get the images good and stable. Unclear like this is a serious project and for
strange reason my teenage bread really took to this project and I was determined to somehow figure out a visualize better. Well, when you do You start toward things about your mind like if you know you want a colored shop likes. Let's say I wanted a visual eyes, a yellow, billiard ball that I could then visualize myself flying towards what you sort of visualizing intend and then you get to see what color show up or shape show up as result of that, and then you notice your reaction to those and and you sort of modified and this herd of back and forth iterative process of, figuring out how to get the visualization goods and that apparent was enough meditation insight to get me stage, we will call the arising in passing away. I learned that stage. Name might tenures actually eleven years later, something I would just ask you for a second, for anybody can shirt so will you targets gauge and meditation. We're talking about the stages of insight. described in ancient buddhist texture of things that happen in the mind of a meditate her. As
here he practices right and it turns out there actually the standard developmental things that you don't have to be a Buddhist to experience. The state has been you just have to how pay attention enough to something and notice enough about its impermanence, its changing nature or something about its cause and effect or another as these various things you can get insight into, and if you pay attention well enough to your immediate sensation, period. Some people will just slip into the stage and when I slipped into it, I had the stream where're you Travis grab before, but were standing on this road me into other people in Europe three feet: high and silver space, it's holding Reagan's and everything was washed out super bright. This is an incredibly vivid dream. The colors are, I'm just so bright and the sun is like shining down blazing sunlight and were stand watching this long, dusty road
and then all of a sudden there's a cloud of dust and this horses like huge black war charger horse with a huge which riding on it and she's got like the pointy high. she looks like your standard. You know like Halloween cartoon, which or something and she's got a black dress and a black cavan. She comes riding on this huge war charge your horse towards us, and she takes her wand, and she pointed at us, and this brilliant white lie blazes out of it and my consciousness experts, and at this point to say, I'm asleep is really stretching out. So their dream comes into tightness, pain and weakness in my body- is now flying all over. My bedroom is like electric sparks, like a fireworks display and it takes a few seconds for the sparks the kind of Rico less than my body and I'm sitting there buzzing with this incredible sense of energy. And dumb, by the way, the arising in passing, where the specific stage can present a lot of different ways. So this is just one semi, idiosyncratic experience of it sets a homo
topic, not everybody hits the stage as regards and right now that some of these things are just Kiki teenager like their brain interpreting it, Some of the specifics like sense of energy or presence, or sometimes you know for a few people, explosions of consciousness. meditating and dreams. What an explosion of consciousness me, like literally, felt my entire body and mind just exploded and sparks like that were just fine So there's, no, you there to experience what that well, I somewhere, but fight trying to figure out where that you was is, would be destroyed. Accordingly confusing. There is definitely some sense of abduction. answer a reference point at this point. It be very hard to figure out where, moving very fast and arrogant, and at this point I will at this point the interview I suspect, some people listening her thing, what what the Hell's the sky target yeah it turns out a if you, read about these things. You can read all about the stages of insight cause they're well described in a number of texts, including my own book, which we can talk about later, how we will, but but
These things, it turns out have been described for at least twenty three hundred years probably much longer than that, and you can find various maps the talk about these kind of meditative phenomena error attention, development phenomena in a whole bunch of places, so I could list a whole bunch of sources Eric and put them in the shone out or whatever, but you can meet but these things- and these things are things that happened to some people and actually a reasonable number of people so actually, like my sister, was walking down the streets of New York and all of a sudden, her consciousness exploded and for some reason she crossed the rising. In passing away a lot of my friends, I had a lot of but a people. I hang out with no two boy but married, to have grasped the stage its now. that unusual and where its actually, the most surprising thing to me is that it's not better known. And it's really where that somehow this thing has been missed and like. If you look at the life of Voltaire, the great philosopher, he describes perfectly and right
in passing by experience and then all of a sudden he was this great philosopher- was actually a bunch of examples of that humus. Another example Tolstoy as a good description, and they all cross. This thing, and once you cross this thing, you're a little different, and so what another way to describe it using different terminology, then your consciousness explode. Could we describe it in a way that would be as simple as possible for people? Yes, Actually that's that could actually be an entire podcast, and I can talk a lot about that as one of my favorite topics and the problem is So a lot of experiences are functionally this stage, but they can look like a whole lot of different things. So, for example, some people have explosions of consciousness, People have some sort of a vortex like experience. Basically, Anybody who is talking about couldn't Lenny energy awakening, that's the stage people to see like a brilliant white light that somehow is kind of blissful for a lot of people set relatively common thinks for people to get into particular meditation treats, but plenty
one day, a life. Have this happen? I know someone who took her, as I mentioned before they were. She was an actress and she took a workshop on how to control her breathing such that she could deliver lines to the back of the room at relatively high volume, but not run out of air at the same time, and that's a real, you know, skill that people who are on State you need to learn well, and that, was enough, like introspective paying attention that, for whatever reason, the next time she walked on stage and start paying a lot of attended her breath boom. All of a sudden like her, she was onstage fell like her body, just flew into fragments all over the room and like, and then she we call Aston slay the play didn't because I have the sort of one s movements actually had This happened to me while I was driving done interstate one time, and luckily somehow I didn't managed to wreck liquid and last very long, ok, People are with us at this point if they have, if they, if they ever they're, not like making work, were agent and crazy talk up until this point there
taxing they might be. Thinking is ok, I'm meditating. Now I don't want this to happen. Will actually that's a reasonable, an interesting points. That's another whole thing we can talk about so the stage also sometimes is not as dramatic I'm talking about some of the more dramatic things, but like one of mine, it was just like the sense of energy that suddenly got between my eyes and sort of between my ears and a kind of heads buzzy, loudness rules like and what is the zip partners kind of that down the middle? My spine that was my whole arising in passing away, but it was enough to then have the effects that, as were to throw me into the more difficult stages that pretty always follow it. Now there were difficult centres are not always that difficult, sometimes they're, kind of milder, sometimes not even that noticeable, but sometimes kind of challenging, and we would call those the knowledge of suffering or the Duke Ananas Duca, meaning suffering and yawning meaning inside stages. Or Saint John of Cross called the dark night of the soul or in our various people, and so the check with arising in passing away is it can then bring ups, psychological stuff and some deeper layers of arson
was that we then have the opportunity to practice with were gone and awaken, but can also be kind of thrown by some time. So I was then kind of thrown by these things, where your teenage, when I was a teenager and the proper MS retrospectively, and that allow you in bed yeah through me. So again, yes and then I also have my first out of body travel experience very shortly thereafter. I can't remember that night or the next night, but I wear to sweat out of my body in Florida through the wall at the common stage of practice, for people to have forced out of body experiences, not everybody has them again and some people, just experience, kind of blissful Tingley energy like on their skin and like sort of weird tingles of chills or rapturous, some people expiring, kind of weird movements or spontaneous shaking or strange sniffing patterns, some people- I mean that some people experience pleasure that is like incredibly blissful or even might be described as orgasm occur on. You know like well a lot of people described
this is their conversion, experience and Christianity, when someone says they had a conversion experience and I saw the light yet that light- you saw that bright white light that felt. Like the love of God, or have you interpret it it was your arising in passing away moment. I'm you see this described in all those religious traditions. You see it met being a major turning point, a lot of people's lives, so Saint Christine is class example like Catherine reveal you can find if you go back and love look at alive mystics. They had their first experience, and that was what we call the arising in passageway call whenever, namely like doesn't matter, but and so you, this is a universal human phenomena that you find actually across religious, friends and even in secular people's. That's really interesting. When people her a secular and have no reference points for We were whenever and all of a sudden had this experience it can be kind of disorienting are surprising or confusing, and for some kind of mildest like some buzzy tingling, and they didn't need to sleep as much, and I had a really cool dreamer, whatever none that, unfortunately, was an
often so diagnosing. This thing is kind of complicated, naturally require some real expertise of the range of presentation which actually takes a while to develop. The stage is also a common time people get very sell us or to suddenly think they're awakened, which it's just one stage on the way to what we would call awakening. He can dry or lines where you want, but you're a suddenly like really want to tell everybody to practice, would be incredibly excited about something or some people can sort of manic episodes. What looked like MCA possess this? Where they don't sleep for a few days and there like think there can the king or queen of the universe or whatever so like that's where it can get into that problematic side, not that that can't be a lot of fun, but it can also be kind of a mess if you like, You know how you suddenly are in your workaday officer, whatever. Let me try, but doesn't really basic terms, this could be inaccurate. So please correct me: why Mental chatter is decreased, in whatever through
ever modality, were using meditation breath work. Whenever, when mental chatter comes down, very interesting experiences can arise for some here that, but that's essential, but we're talking about and these interesting differences can take a wide variety of forms, all of them functionally. We will you know well there is that the nice ones, not nice ones and their maps for these things and people have been describing these for it again, thousands of years and what's introducing maps, are interrupt. You get a lot of the stages of meditation or ways to categorize. These things were predict even what's going to happen next, so various in schools, religious schools and scores of Buddhism Scores of Hinduism. Maybe janitor eastern Orthodox islam- they have Describe German, yes, Germans! Yes, with help from plants.
They have described what happens as you engage in these practices reliably and somewhat predictably, over time, That's what you mean, what you say: maps yeah. I find that concept to be incredibly interesting. While we get the term enlightenment, which I never really took seriously. Frankly, before I got to know you, even though I had been brought up, I mean I took. I have to I d I'd here my meditation teachers talking about it and thought it was ridiculous piece of, Baloney appended to an otherwise sensible system. of mental exercise and then I started to get to do. You will tackle other what about your story and why it matters in this context, but I'll always thought enlightenment was
Billy ridiculous, but what one of the things he started it, how we changed my mind was actually know this. These there are maps in from all these cultures completely dislocated by both I am, and geography and language jazz. Describing similar things. And then there are disappearing. O the maps divergent key points and all this in the some degree yeah, but but but are either. He makes it more interesting, so yeah I'll, stop rhapsodize No, that does are really important. Thank you. So much so I'll get back to you. You're in your bedroom, which is Reagan's, etc. Then you fly, you have an out of bodies, Reggie, I'd important note, you're, not saying you actually flu, but you had the sensations of rising out of my body, seeing my body there on the bed floating through the wall, snapping back and all of a sudden. It didn't lads just a few seconds. So did you,
become? May teenage meditation teacher what happened next? No, I had no idea what the hell happened to me. I had no language for this new reference points for this, and then I had more challenging stages which are called dissolution, fear, misery, disgust desire for deliverance and not very well named one called reabsorb nation which actually can be very challenging to these discharge is just in terms of the maps. You are now talking about the terawatt, a buddhist yeah inside the stages of insight map and its, as there are stages that led up to the arising and passing away. But after arising passing away, which is fireworks, ask for some Vicksburg for other. There are a bunch of other stages that, better. How helpfully yes and then they common, not culminate in, but they lead to further map. Unanimity, where you eventually for some. Yes, if you're lucky, yes and then for some, if you're lucky their son, thus very oh did term of Nirvana actually out well the complicated word, I'm gonna say: stream, entry or first path and eggs.
We have that relates to Nirvana be happy to talk about. If you won't do so, there's too the word nerve bonnet at least or Nirvana. If you wanna be Polly about it. Polly booming ancient language spoken the poorer and IRAN are being Sanskrit, which was came later so so Nevada is used at least two different ways or a and why of them relates to a momentary disappearing of the sunset world and then a reappearing of the sunset world. Now there are some sort of what are called Polly heads will debate exactly the canonical use of this. I really don't want to go. that fight, but just acknowledge it exists, and so we think disappears when the mind is
perfectly synchronized all of its attention on a moment and seeing that moment vanish basically foreseen that moment collapse and not be self or seen something in the suffering of the way we saw at a fire grasp under that moment, and then we let go that in Russia's away from us and disappear so the various ways we can enter this thing and then reality disappears Frames have been taken out in reality, reappears, there's. Nothing in the gap has not like their own black frames there or clear frames. There are any frames, there is just the frames gone, so we lose like in our quarter second or a second or something, but most the time is not very long and then we're back and then we're different, and so that would be the first stage of awakening the word Nirvana. Ernie Baha is also used to describe a much higher stage of awakening than that which would be called our hutch
open. The taravat are even in our various persons, would have their own words for it, but that is a permanent state where there is no longer the sense that there is, a watch. Her do are nowhere controller ever rising again, and this is just the unfolding moment as it is right that others, no the the sense of self, is deconstructed in a very, very specific. sense, so the sense of self has to be used very carefully right because as soon as use a term like that Then people are going to have all these meetings. They might tribute to the word self. I'm self might be the sense of being able to care for oneself or self might be the sense of perception or self, people use these different words different ways and see you ve gotta be very careful when used the word like that, because Ray, in this context, to use an incredibly specific sense and its.
and it's a sense that most people are not used to and not expecting. And so it means that, rather than there being a sense of controller now, there's just the sense of intentions arising naturally like the rest of the world unfolding naturally, and then actions rising. Naturally. From those intentions, so there is a sense of naturalness or causality without the sense that there is something separate or independent from that this controlling Weirdly enough people like, oh, I don't want to lose, control actually know you never actually had control is the sense of self in this case is an illusion, so this just removing that illusion doesn't change function. Fact that upgrades function, because there is not the confusion about the fact of something that didn't actually exist. So it's actually an upgrade it's better, and there is also the sense of the watchers. So we generally think where this sort of special point somewhere between our ears or in our throat thirst for some people in their hearts her chest somewhere. That seems to be where we kind of are the central watcher nowhere,
Where would we say? Subject? That's where we kind of seem to be the observer and it turns out those are actually just a bunch more sensations happening on their own, and so you can actually with enough training and incite, learn to notice that actually, all the sensations you thought word observer controller, do or actually more sensations and that sensations was kind of where, where they are, it is kind of light up where they are naturally always have, and so the sense of water is also an illusion with the removal of that. Actually, there is this great sort of increased clarity, because the brain is not having to pretend to filter everything through the central sort of linear mode of some in a portion of its trying like others in this, and this in this respect this uncontrolled s been aware of this and remember this. Like that happens, lesser smell, sensations are now just happening and wider burden sort of you caught awakes base of transience,
or something, and so these are some of the ways in which its not self, in the way, people generally think of themselves and sort of a psychological sends her normal identity, sensitive, very specialised meaning. So anyway gone yes, I, like you, don't make density women's very you, don't feel yourself, you're right, you're right but just adjusted you, you said a lot of stuff. Ten minutes ago that I wanted to make sure people are confused about. So I will try to explain it, but fact check me has as I go, So the stages of inside again in this one of the maps In the end, the terror of school, we're, not even all caravans embrace this map, but the stages of insight the old School Buddhism. Basically, you go through this process that you described of you do some beginning. Meditation and if you're, lucky or or not, you get this
icing in passing away stage, neither through some difficult stages there ECHO nimitti, where you're cool with all that and then maybe Nirvana hits and arises or whatever and my closing, the Nevada Sykes, it's kind of what he's loaded words like that cessation of some people call yeah sure, cessation or fruition, which leads to put more comfortable kind first path or stream, entry ripe, atolls, less but a lot more technical to less confusing button. People still don't know what that means, either semi right off the bat but but I guess what I'm trying to say is you said first path, and so I think it's important but that there are four turn names. It didn't envisioned in the in the mouth, As I understand them, they you hit first path and you become which call they stream enter you go through this again or a version of this again and then nervous An association or fruition happens again. Anna. You come a once returned second path. Second path:
The names are Dhaka, Gummy, it's easy to get stuck on these names because it does sound like something out of dungeons and dragon. anyway when the reasons I like it, I loved under the dragon. I find that zero, shocking and I say that with affection yourself described Ultra geek back then the third as is the third time this, have you go through the cycle and Nevada wherever you want to call it. Arises or doesn't arise, or whatever its non return, her and then the final time, our hunt or our hot, depending on your pronunciation of choice, which is for us fourth pass. Some people people, and this is where things get a little legalistic with you in particular some people think of that is full enlightenment, and in that negative emotions no longer arise, you no longer experience, greed or hatred or confused about the nature of reality.
this is I mean again, I want to act. I've never experience say that stuff, but it is in trying to me because I've I've experienced maybe like tiny little tastes of the beginning, and I know a lot of people who I take seriously, who have been war Pine claimed we further along the path, it's hard for me to say, dismiss that man, you were very key in my development and thinking a lot about these things you're getting to know. You was very important thank the people who are kind enough to train me for that cause. If I see far it's because I stand on the shoulders of many many giants. so let s go back to your story, because I think this will help clear things up for people show, after you had these experiences a teenager? What happened next? Because as if I remember from our many many years of just conversing you'd let her pretty conventional life yeah. So except I was a weird kid. I was a geeky kid sort of socially awkward kid. Maybe something
say I still I'm kind of official fabric at sometimes lifestyle lovable glacier, thank you is kind of you and so and then, This thing happened to me like six more times in the next ten years, where I would sort of get to equanimity, kind of fall, Back cross, the arising and passing away again, my country explain or some other weird thing happened like one time I was dancing and all of a sudden became this like vortex of blissful energy like us, whirling around like a dervish and then it's kind of all died down by them An Sophie dancing guess. Another act is another example of schools. Dancing you right away to away. We get into ecstatic states an end to awaken, and now I totally undermined Why am I dare go dervishes good? And so that's where you find something interesting technologies. Could this happen someone they figured out? While I do this thing, it leads the things sometimes and they started teaching other people, and so these again universal
human experiences. When I dont conventional life, you, you might have been a good kid, but you like one after college Yahoo sure, but I didn't know what had happened. I know this. I mean all these strange experiences with this file dinner or of weird whew and I was raised kind of scientific materialistic. I was you know that in school signs, math and physics and chemistry, your parents, I just survey yes so yeah they they my mom a Phd in Bio. as Exist, Yale on scholarships and was the first woman to do so, and my dad's got em d from Yale knows yet what harm regalia Harvard and I was raised by people who are very scientific and sort of sand materialist. Until my mom Kano went out they're pretty far less. I have a whole other story. I prefer not to dwell on, but, let's to say all of a sudden thee.
While the end of the new age, from my point of view as a child was suddenly now a part of her worldview and her scientists days were over and OB disconnect kind throw that out their move along about. Does it was disorienting as a child, and I didn't know what to make of that, and it didn't help me integrate any of the experiences that I had had cause. She wasn't really talking about that kind of stuff. She's talking about other things, and it made me in some ways, even kind of more like yeah. We will know that then I eventually ended up. You know Some meditation people and drinks meditation all the sudden they had maps for these stages, and then I was like oh, my colleague, stuff has been well described in their describe my experience to a tea, and how did they know- and somebody get administrations that he's got a lot of things happening between also maybe I'll just tell him off If memory serves, you went to college where again you and
teach, uplink, ok, and then you were by our own description. If I recall correctly, you did audio fur high class bar bands, there's a sound man. First, dance bands, motel, so bands rock bands, and that was my living through college. I had long hair and a sort of a weird like somewhere between mullet and flock of seagulls hairdo and let us was wearing rip genes and long black trench coats and play guitar and bands and and so along the way I met this guy can folk. And this was but we could begin. You went back and medical, so well, yeah, there's long, there's a whole lot in their right. Ok, Sir said the medical happens after you will discover meditation yeah. It happened eight years after college. There was a Ok, so the gap is where the meditations things start to come here. just situating us in time carry on so I met this guy can Falcon here.
Across something called the arising in passing away. You leave him on. I said I have not had an hour, you wanna have a mind. I'd have among us. I know him through you and so yeah he's out Asia, pretty well known meditation teacher talks you guys lot of overlap in the Van diagrams and our errands, I've known as but since I was you known, I guess late freshman or something in college, and we lived together for almost a year and not crazy band house and we would philosophize he had also across the rising no way under different circumstances, and but would neither of us knew what it was and we're both sort of in this weird sort of half in half out stage, but we didn't even know what that was in New York. Flailing around, and I was looking at Ts Eliot. He was looking at KEN Wilburn. He was looking at toast away and I was looking at quantum mechanics and things like the dancing Wu Li Masters and the new physics
how it relates to the mind knowledge of anyone. So we had always conversations and then finally he goes off to California and being convinced by guy named Bill Hamilton. That he's do some retreats and he does buncher retreats and he comes back This is the guy lifting Band House where than but on the road we have- and I know him like you- know- people you ve had those kinds of experiences whether I was like yeah. This is better so then, inspired by them, I start doing retreats with Chris Furtiveness and charter were shown as raising Norman, Feldman and FED phenomenon, and if on we're in somebody by Zaga and people like that these are all well. Recently wellknown meditation teachers we should promote, puts an information yeah and am going on retreats with them and then above and a society, and then you know with bunting, Gunnar Tuna and some the monks and his order and and starting got inside them and this guy
inside so doing so. The interest something was every time owed gone, retreat out, cross, theorizing, passing away again some dramatic explosive, weird thing, and then I would hit dark night stages in this kind of risk. My life, I was the others. The other thing I forgot to mention. Whenever Kostiei P a few weeks later hour, break my life, I would break up of myself and I would call a graduate program or another in educational thing, or I would do something and yeah just kind of make sort of make a mess of things, because I suddenly didn't care about those things? I can see them that interesting or appealing or whatever the the sort of negative motions. It would come up that I had no normalization forehead, that's what happens after the AP wasn't happening. I didn't have them out yet. eventually, I got the maps when I went on my third retreat at MILAN. Buddhist Meditation Centre and I learned mahars. He sat on noting, which I found very powerful. Ok, you just tell us what that is. Yes, the way you you also when you say got inside yeah, I'm not talk about that both those. So it is on that report,
I finally really understood like what I was doing. What was going on and so I learned to note and noting as a technique. use the Masis cider tradition, but somebody also find it didn't and young untrue Adasa and in the Polly Cannon suitors like one by as they occurred, which you can find them at length, discourse of the Buddha number one eleven I think anyway, Marty Cider is no longer living Burmese meditation master, yes, and he was incredibly important at bringing meditation to lay people, and he got this crazy idea to take lay people and put him on these intensive retreat programmes and watched a whole bunch of em wake up and get traditional insight stages and get tradition. They of awakening, whereas before it was in many ways the monks were doing that people, not nearly so much, and so this happen in Burma and sort of the middle of the twentieth century and then some people.
started westerners, start going over and doing these things and they started waking up and getting insights, and he also came to the insight, meditation society in Barre Massachusetts and he taught there three months in like one thousand nine hundred and eighty Brady want or something somewhere on there and all of a sudden they got a vastly higher proportion of stream emperors than they had ever had and there were like well. This is pretty cool and they ve been teaching noting or some variant of it further a three month ever since, because there were impressed that at its ability to get people in touch with. What's going on two very simple technique, you dislike note rising rising falling falling for the bathroom lifting living, placing or whatever for the feeder wandering for the mind, or you know seeing hearing thinking you know and exactly which no to use and how you use them. No, not now not me to get in our tuna rock about, and you can find instructions in this in his bed some porn, wonderful book, practical insight, meditation, my favorite DARPA book of all time by suicide IDA and this stuff
Eventually simple technique creates in some people who do it well and high enough. Those some very, very powerful effects that were Conniston. rising to me. My body was shaking and sniffing, and I was like sweating seeing our things and having weird sensations poor through my body and then I was like felt like I was like sinking through the floor and narcotics strained syrup, the thing was going like freeze frame flashing and unlike what the hell like this is like what I went through as a kid, but even weirder like and more powerful cause. I'm not doing it on retreat with his very very powerful technique and then I have been able to sit for like four hours and now I could barely set for five minutes without unbelievable reddest restlessness and ear irritation in some just existed
horrible, Nestlike, welling up and unlike what the heck, and then the old monk seeing me have got into a stage that was worthy to give a little more information to play. This old scratchy tape of this old burmese monk, with a very thick accent, describing the stages of insight, except he and you could tell us. Tapered boom played like a thousand times uncivil Cosette recorder, and yet he described in or everything I had gone through in sequence, with freakish level of detail stuff. What I thought was just my own, we're body doing weird stuff, like I've, never heard of the stuff and all the they not only do they know about it, but they can predict that and describe it and clearly Everybody else seems to go through something like this to or they wouldn't play this tape, and it convince me that instead called reabsorb ratio which could be a very challenging stayed for some, but that, right after it was economically and if I just have faith in the tradition, the technique, and
whatever is going on? No matter how bad it is that I can maybe get through this and that's what happens and all of a sudden from intense restlessness and irritation my mind feeling like a crazy hive bees I buckle down and sort of gathered my resources note through the horrible and all of a sudden, everything opens up and on the sort of weird flowing space of equanimity, and things are amazing and then the retreat ends and then I fall back into the dark net kind of wrecked. My life and kind of message. My relationship with my first wife and I kind of mess up the service pride exit I'm working women Bug Guy India at the time, and I cancel all my Moscow interviews cause. I now don't care anything about going to medical school. I got no is great interviews, Miller, gray, schools and I cancel all that and I sell nearly. thing I own, and I decided to go on, go some long retreat or whatever and then I go on my then I so I've got the match from that.
And I I got the maps from another source from practical insight, meditation which has them, I found them in a book called the vicinity Magua and later would find them in books called the remedy. Magua picture books. You can find ancient Buddhist. Yet these are all british commentary. Your tax and actually the state has been set come from before that their canonical. They come from something called the Abbe Dogma, which is one of the three baskets of what's called the Tippy talk or three baskets three big books, the code of conduct for monks, the suitors and the Abbe damage which a sort of a section on analysis. In summary, in any way- and so it turns out this in by stages are well described in old and got some help and then on my next retreat, not It did. I know what to do, but I knew what was expected so didn't throw me this time. I wasn't confused by it and I could just practice by this point I want, nothing else in the world, then stream entry again, the first various have what you don't like to call Nirvana sure you caught Nirvana, that's just just realized, loaded word with lotta we're baggage on lottery and cultural stuff. Do you look
people have made it this far. There ok with weird, I hope so anyway, youngster good point. So not referring to you Well, I'm kind of weird, that's! Ok! I have a bit of an odd duckling strip. Forget right, claiming to be normal. I would even though it that way, but you know you know what I mean some out so anyway, so gone the surgery, and now I know what to do and Don't want anything else in the world. I have no other concerns. I don't care. If I break my brain, I don't care. If I go crazy, I don't care about any else. So I have really know hindrances. I wanna do is note and notice and pay attention figured this thing and by the way you're in your twenties here, yeah I'm in my twentyth, so an intense young man in his 20s on a quest. This is one thousand nine hundred and ninety six at the time, monastery and bug guy sitting with Christopher Titmuss in his fine crew of other great teachers. Again.
and there were really nice and with interesting Chris. First, totally non magic is coming from this type forest, so he was a nice counterbalanced. My mapping, us so augurs well described in terms there. Ty Forest tradition, also part of tariffs, Buddhism, which is the old School of Buddhism here, but they are not. There are much more relaxed for the most part, as I understand it, about these maps. Yeah they're generally, not as maybe- and there are some interesting historical reasons for that. It's not like. Oh everybody in Thailand or tie forests. like the maps or use them. They know about them right. They these people ass, good, Lattimer, Tickly, the monastic, so ragged scholars therein the commentaries. They're, coming from a tradition that actually have some interesting sort of voluntary, ANA Marianna influence, answer later, schools of Buddhism later scores of Buddhism, and that in this interesting history of Thailand how this came down in the late. eighteen hundred there was attacking that sort of design, We're just gonna sort of cleaner
homogenized Buddhism and make it Altera vodka and we're gonNa Conniston about some more vodrey on my honour elements from it, but I never really went away. I mean he, they sort of call it something different, but so them because they had three scores of Buddhism there. What they have is sort of this interesting mixture, which is cool like I got a lot of saying that in our quest for TAT, Missus Ex Tie Forest monk ends up being influenced by the Thai Forest people like their books of arch on China, for example, who trained a lot of the. I am ass teachers and people so anyway, so it was nice to be on this retreat with simultaneously the powerful technology of my hussy good maps, teachers, who also were able to see things that were not the maps and emphasise those things that sort of a counterbalance and it just turn enough my year of serve voluntary service in India, where I've been working and street clinics in Calcutta, mother Teresa, comforting, destitute and rural health education needs for the project in Bulgaria, then, like
a man India had done whatever India does. What to the script, a tremendous amount away from me and kind of broken me town, that's a whole nother story than a year in India. Do that to you, amazing country, but wow, what happened and so that combination dismayed me, I guess apparently ripe for really just cutting through delusion cause. I didn't care about anything. Also doing that I had no other agenda is nothing else my mind I wanted, and I just went straight for it and so six days and of a sudden, from my mind, manages to sing her and disappear and reappear I'd gone through. The state has been side again. There were counting, but I knew how to handle them had been through them a lot of times before in daily life and on retreats. so now that I have the normalization, the name somehow that helped me just be with them like this is normal. This is normal. I can best practice. I don't have to worry that this is weird. I don't have to be confused by it. I can just practice, and so it is practised and dead techniques that are reported to produce, incite weirdly
Produced inside ok inside I asked you just before: what do you mean by insects so insight in the Buddhist technical sense is very specialised, meaning of insight, and it means an appreciation of the three characteristics now other people could go in do what incite means. You could also say it: you know I'll talk about three characteristics. Other people might say, means insight into dependent origination or insight into suffering. Those are all too, and so I ll talk about this. So the three characterise some very terra, botany or insight into emptiness? How a lot of my honour of Adriano people or send people might put it more insight into Shenyang autos. Very other words for the same thing: ok, fun pick your language. Whatever language you like, I'm comfortable, thou that languages lungs people know what they mean, but I'm gonna go kind of old school terawatt. I guess that's kind of my home turf, not haven't train it. but whether schools I have but impermanent so to actually see once and say reality minimised moment the first of the three arise and vanish. This is the first to the reaches us right so tis to actually physically per se
sounds too are not every year the three characteristics s three characteristics. So too, to perceive directly for oneself, not as a theoretical concept, but but but but the pump that one's fiscal, sensations, vibrate arise, vanish, pulse ones, mentor, sensations thought, intentions, memories arise and vanish ones sounds one hears arise and vanished, but at a very fine grained level were actually talking multiple times a second. So you know ten fifteen twenty twenty five sounds like. Oh, my god, I can never perceive that except you can t even listen to be speaking at this incredible rate. I realise a toxic I'm sorry about by the way poligized by talk fast, I kind of do a sort of hype. Romantic just the way I was born. I work with despair. So even to understand me saying that sentence you have to understand a lot of things very quickly per second to type a lot of you, I'm sure, a pretty good tapers. Will you take many keystrokes per second and to be able to do that? You have to be able to perceive a lot of things per second
if you actually notice, while I can perceive the arising and vanishing of the sensations of each keystroke, the intention to type a key, but the letter I'm going to hit at while Europe keeping lack of what it is, those letters are leading towards a sentence or a meaning or something you're, trying to convey while listening to the sound of the clicks and feeling your body and all of that year. Experiencing many many sensations per second, and just by noticing that fact. Clearly, there is a way to gain insight and so driving think about just turn like a car for one second of turning a car, like how many little things you have to calibrate and Alain around you and the steering wheel and exactly how fast your turning and what you're turning towards what's in front of you might might be to the right or left for you might that what who might be about to cross the street or what there is a tremendous amount of data pouring into our minds. Have incredible Rhett level of resolution that we have all the time to do things like understand my hypo manic presentation, but
If we turn that towards actually does noticing the arising eventing shooting of those sensations selves than insight, can result an inch I can change you can't it can up the resolution if your brain, it can increase the ability to actually just perceive the fact that your thoughts come and go really rapidly. Your physical sensations come and go. This house can have powerful emotional consequences does to note, the thoughts of the fleeting glimpse of stuff arising, vanishing that your bodily, sensations of fear or no sadness are a lot of little sensations, and I got to be careful of spiritual, bypassing here. That's part of a whole nother but it can give people senator clarity, ritual bypassing just now that you mention it decide spiritual bypassing is where you try to use meditation techniques, the kind of ignore the content of x,
IRAN's in favour of just noticing, like sensations arising, vanishing or just getting into bless, were getting very quiet. So there is this debate about how much one should spend looking at once. Emotions and one's issues and one's shadow sides verses, just noticing that what I would call the true nature of just bear a sunset experience, and I think we have to do both, but sometimes it easier to do one and then do the other. They don't tend to mix well. So when you doing emotional work, wicked emotions as emotions, don't try to just a pick them apart and a little meaning was blips of data and when doing insight, practices your emotions, apart into little meaningless blips of impermanent data and so and learn when to do one of the other. I think we need both of em to grow well as people and be reasonable, saying hopefully well integrated people, but when practicing, but I would think of a sort of more pure insight practice, this kind of a loaded term, but
Forgive me you just noticed slots little sensations make up your experience, they come and go and they come and go on their own. So what's interest anybody who's ever sat down to meditate. This is the next characteristic hours will actually be the third one, but no self or lots of anyone who's ever sat down to meditate for even a few minutes. I'm sure you have noticed that trying to get your mind to do what you want to do at all times is nearly impossible. Himself, and all these thoughts seem to be a rising out of your control. Actually yeah. That's insight that incite number one. This reality is not in your control, that's true, and it appears that you control a little bit of it, but that's actually illusory even a little bit of control. You think you have, if you really pay attention clearly enough and get intentions, Barely enough as part of your awareness to notice rise man, if you will see them arise, costly just like everything else arises kind. I direct my foot. Naturally, sir. Initially. We start with the assumption that we kind of can write so bitter.
Has three main trainings morality, concentration or basic, meditation, skulls and then insight. So here s a muddy and Pannonia or Sheila Osama tat progeny. However, you want a phrase: whatever kind of polio sanskrit words the money, is not what they mean. Morality, when training and morality or good behaviour. Good speech, good action, good livelihood, We assume that we are in control, we assume we can make choices. We assume that we can determine what's going on right. We assume that weaken decide to eat that apple or eat that kind of ice cream forever his weaken it are. We can try to the gate in this world and figure out. What are what consequences? Are actions lead to and hopefully, game wisdom from those and use that, as a feedback mechanism to inform our decisions, we assumed decision making capacity,
an agency, ok, and even when training and sort of concentration practice, which is kind of a loaded, terminus, really sophisticated concept, but we assume that we can try to quiet our minds that we can try to stay still, that we can try to pay attention that we can try to notice. What's going on that, we can try to follow a technique if we wish or that we can try to just be open to whatever experience arises, that we can note that we can follow our breath that we can notice a positive mine state when it arises and try to embrace it and cultivate more of it. We can notice not very nice or a seemingly unskilful or unpleasant mine stay when it rises and try to figure out how to have less of those of us who are trying to do, and so again this training assumes choice,
and assumes agency and its a relatively good assumption right and that's how most of us were most of our lives and that's great. However, we then an insight practice. Do this weird thing where we get like we walk up to this edge and we walk up to this edge with the sense of agency with the sense of control with a sense of this. But then we say with a sense of agency in control where illusion of control, really I'm going to try to see that the sense of controls and illusion and I'm gonna to intentionally with us the illusion of agency, to my attention to the fact that that is an illusion and their intentions arise on their own causally, naturally, like all other natural, awful things unfolding in this world, and so we take the intention and directed to seeing intentions, rise on their own, and so that's what we call insight, and so that's a sort of weird paradox of Buddhism. We walk, but you
start with a sense of agency in that's what we have to work with and that's what we used to actually deconstruct that fundamental illusion. Do you talk about them national benefits of the insight into impermanence. In other words, it can be emotionally, liberating Tenno that sadness mayor yes, but it will also pass if here, What is this? What are the emotional benefits of seeing that the self we conventionally understand it, is an illusion. Yes, so many, okay, so there's. This sense that most people have their this poor. A linear thing. That's trying to control things to do things to be things to know things, to make decisions to navigate in this world and that
inherently painful illusion, because the only thing that we have an experience to base a self out of his all this changing stuff, and it turns out that the process of trying to create a stable sense of self out of an intrinsically incredibly unstable experience right, are moment to moment. There's like ok that my left shoulder is kind of the same sensations as it was before, but it really is exactly in those sensations, actually kind of different. My heads cataclysm citizens was before, but actually there do new fresh sensations they're changing all the time. Those thoughts are kind of, like maybe some thoughts that I had before, but there actually different thought. Those feelings that are kind of like feelings have had before actually total. New fresh different feelings, and so it turns out that the mental process of having to constantly figure out which of these things is the new US arising vanishing moment to moment his car
like a virus on your computer. It just takes up all this processing time it turns out. It didn't need to do it anyway and actually just makes the whole thing not as clear because is constantly trying to make permanence things that are not permanent, which is an arduous task and one doomed to failure, but that of the system gets pretty good at it. And so that's painful, and it turns out that there's this other weird thing than happens with pleasure and pain. So the weird thing, His pleasure arises somewhere, let's say, but there's this put off census. If we believe we're somewhere in her head and lets, say the pleasure as in her hand, let's say I put like on a new really soft glove or something does felt nicer my hand, while the weird thing is you now have the central observer that thinks it's sensations. Here are pleasure or the knowledge of the pleasure of the owner of the pleasure, but that's not true the sensations,
pleasure, might be in your hand at the nice soft glove or that you know the fuzzy mitten, nor that you know that whatever pick some nice thing, that is certain distant from your head. That feels nice. He's your imagination and ethics and there is the problem now, because this thing that's in the middle of our heads- that thinks it's really the observer controller nor door now is distant from the things that are pleasant and so actually literally strains literally like a tries to bend itself and figure out a way to get itself to be closer to that thing and that bending forward is actually craving. so gets very confused when the mental sensations going on around your head, most of which are not pleasant, are not pleasant, but that's most of the sensations you're paying attention to cause. There's
confusion where you think these sensations, in the middle of your head, are actually observing. No, they aren't, and so most of what you experience is not the pleasant sensation. It's all this other sort of sensations round your head, some wherever you think the observer is that are nothing like her pleasant sensation that are now trying to get towards the pleasant sensation they're trying to forget how experience chiefly to get the pleasant sensation to last, therefore, the pleasant sensation is going to leave, and so, but their barely actually most of attentions not on the pleasant sensations himself. So, like people eat a tape the meal and they might notice the first biter too, are tasty and then, after that, their thing, about the meal or distracted they're, not actually enjoying the nice meal. You D spent all his money on take away from New York where food price to kind of high, but you have some great restaurants and so but like most of your money is wasted because your attention was not there, because it's going through this weird sort is propping up this The sense of illusory thing, a similar thing happens with pain right so
You might have some painful sensations. Like let's say, I stopped my toe the actual sensations stabbing my toe very limited in space. They might be very strong, ok, fine! I don't like something my toe it hurts, but then there is this whole a thing like the internal mind like tries to shut off the sensations. The talk is it imagines it's the experience or at appear tries to ignore, is trying to like shut down the strength to like get away from its trying to like literally like get the head away. From like get the sense of observer way from when these are just more sensations up here and those just sensations in your time, and even long after the sensations of the tow have kind of disappeared there. I ve been my golly I stopped my toe and all this reactive stuff. That's going on from this something up in the head. That is still response. Owing to its own. It run memory of stopping the tow its own images of stopping the tone, none of which are the stubbed tell, and so I can construct all kinds of other.
of course, but in the same kinds of ways we have these. This bizarre reactive thing that we then set up, which is illusory and didn't need to happen. The sensations of the toll could just be the sensations of the town. Now, by themselves where they were no bigger or smaller or more intense, without all the complicated elaboration same thing, with the pleasant sensations on the hand, if you put on you, know the nice mitten or whatever I just feels nice where it is. It was what it was. It was felt directly inexperienced clearly and then disappeared, but the whole thing for, oh, my god, I've got a closer to it, not gonna make it most the time out, even paying attention to it anyway, some kind of missing it but like like that whole thing it turns out, it doesn't need to happen, and it's just like a virus in the system or whatever that you can insight. Practices are designed to actually like be known, some anti virus program, but actually clears out reset the system, and now the system can just experienced things where they are naturally clearly happening, and you don't have to us get this sense.
Processing. Everything through this limited, limited central system thing well said. Let me just reset for the conversation just showing Thank you, my long rant by the way I pike Ass, Sir, about long rents. Ok, thank you. You're you're, in a safe place for that We were talking about your experiences on this retreat where you experienced stream entry and I interrupted By asking you about the insights, and you start talking about the three characteristics you have now covered. The and the three characteristics are the three characteristics of reality: that make up every moment of our lives. The first was impermanence. The third was no self or not self or selflessness, and the second take it away. So that actually is
talking about the second one. But I forgot to mention that I was talking about the second once that suffering, so that the suffering characteristic is curious because, from an insight point of view, its actual specifically applied to the mind that is labouring under the false illusion that there is this: no order, watcher controller, that somewhere in the centre of things. That's then, relating to these thing, in this way that causes additional suffering. So it's weird ten in the illusion of the observer, that's trying to figure out its relationship Things are even what it is and it turns out. Those processes are painful, intrinsically painful. It's like sort of a vagueness- like a headache. You didn't even know you had until suddenly it went away it's like some irritating background noise that you'd kind of forgotten if ever there, until all the sudden it stops and like all my golly, like thank God that noise, I didn't really know to pay attention to anywhere- was- is not happening anyway, and so is very freeing, and this happens at level, so and the terrible maps sort of by levels that there can be served, Jumpsome variants variance at I want the complexities into tat could be an hour hunt conversation the list,
go a sort of standard, simplified theory in there. These levels where you sort of take a layer of mind initially for stream entry, it's kind of a superficial layer of mine, but it's an important one and you kind of her move that sense of illusion and confusion, and say you kind of remove in some way. The initially is, Not that obvious for a lot of people kind of that layer of suffering. Their deeper lay all layers of identification and that sort of creating a self observer agent water control process. There deeper levels, if that deeper layers of mind that then with further cycle through the stages of inside it. I love you can get those layers too and do the same thing and eventually run out of layer is now how many layers there might be some recycles. You might go through it. That's all complicated topic, and it's not it's very rarely for its usually anyway Simone various numbers. The numbers are unimportant, but the fact that eventually you can run out of layers, and suddenly you really have actually hard wired, the brain such that now it Otto
matically perceive things the way they actually are, and so this is what the Tibetans would. You know cuz. You know intravenoso like sort of auto things, auto liberating or that wisdom and emptiness rise together or they're. All these different words for the Tara mountains would call it our hot chip, or my one of my suitors cover the here of the bark cloth. Suitor they say in the seeing is just the scene in the hearing is just the herd in their thinking is just a thought. In the fiscal sensations are justified compensation, meaning no longer is, in these things the sense of a separate watcher, Dewar Knower controller they're, just arising actually on their own- and this is literally a doable thing, and this is what I insight praxis lead to and the great thing the Buddha in us as he discovered people- probably done it. That too, but whenever anyway, but he said, I you know, show that the way to Nirvana to this insight and so this is actually doable thing and it's it's not we're
its doable like if you like, it's just a tradable skill. From my point of view and people dont like that ours is deep spiritual journey. I would warn that caters, but it's also a tradable learning scale, dislike learning to play the piano or learning to do, whatever or all kinds of skills. We learn all the time. If you spend enough time paying attention to the fact that things are impairment, Eventually, you automatically noticed things from permanent, so it's kind of like reading like when we first start to learn to read. You know a b c day. We have to think about what the letters are, and then we start putting them together into words that takes all this thought as complicated, but now If you, when you learn to read you see a word in an otter, translates to meaning. I don't have to look at the ABC News thing. Your team percent happier with then Harris looking on your wall and looking at the side of the wall here in the studio. I don't need to think What the one is the zero or the pretended auto translates to meaning direct
in the same way as learning to read or learning to type. Nowhere like a good typewritten thinking about each keystroke they're, making they just kind of what they want to say in their fingers, make them say in the same sort of automatic way, this can be hard wired and a few practice incite practice well enough and long enough. This is a laudable thing and things just Otto translate to empty otter, translate to impermanent utter translate to not self Otter, translate the causal otter translate to clear, and so it's Another thing like that stay tuned, more of our conversation, is on the way, after this better help offers licensed professional councillors, special, I'm in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief conduct with their profession. Counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor you'll love
so I just see vegan recap a little bit of your personal crowd, cheap to get who something important to discuss an you. Stop me. If you want this, If memory serves again, could I've known you for a couple years now we ve talked about your life, a bed and my life, a bunch in arm. Conversations of Here's your memory serves this retreat, reuse, varied stream. Entry went off and in many other retreats and in the ensuing years you also went and got your medical degree. and at some point you actually hit second path. Third path. I believe fourth path, Adieu Now this then you did something extremely controversial, which is you went, and said. I hit fourth path. I am and our heart, which or our
what, however, you want to pronounce it through arguments about that to one of the things I love about enlightenment, which is both be this wonderful soft thing is there as soon as you start talking about enlightenment you're, in an argument that it has already disagrees about, even even how to pronounce it. words, but anyway you. and talked about the fact that you would hit fourth path or our hardship and wrote a book by Daniel Ingram, the our heart here, our hot and people went bonkers in the buddhist world. So tell me about where the shirt tell me. Them, while, let's start with, tell me what the moment that you believe you hit that fourth path and then we'll go from there. Okay. So at this point this is April retreat twenty one days, malaysian Buddhist Meditations Center I, of myself as late on a guide me at this point and ANA Gomes on his third path through the air
non return are also known as now or not turn, and the reason I think that is because I've gone through a number of cycles of insight where I went through rising, passing away too dark nights to equanimity. Two things disappeared and reappeared, and then my brain was really different, an operator really differently and I went through a number of cycles of that and at this point reality is so much different from when I started at baseline that it's like It feels like it's like ninety five to ninety eight percent. There, the values that he made me a reality is so so what I mean is everything hymns luminous clear where it is almost were injured, daily life or on walking around all the time. This is a These are baseline shifts. These it felt, like switches had fucked. In my brain and now I'm walking around very, very different experience of reality that I had before and the asked majority of, rather than seeming, like its being known Donner, controlled by some little central watcher,
seems aware where it is like I'm picking up my hat and the hat the sensation is picking up. His hat seem to be knowing themselves where the hat is, and the sensations of and holding the hat or the sensations are just their knowing themselves. They are in a very direct, clear way and they almost everything seems to be happening on its own. Naturally, the sense that there really is in our own agent, a free, will almost entirely gone, but then like them, and yet your functional in the world yet very functional. I was way more functional.
It would have been a mess in medical school before had I not done this, but I managed to graduate from medical school semester early kind of an unusual accomplishment, I would say that's pretty highly functional on fixing. The only person is every time that you couldn't see mythical because far as I know, they're all shocked. When I manage to do it and I M so, and then I took the time off to travel around the world in part of travelling round roses. I wanted to go on retreat, and so I went on receipt because I hadn't had much retreated medical school at all, and so I go in retreat. And I think, of myself as very functional at this point you know. Obviously, I've been able to get an empty and I am going to search out of also got access to all the sonic stuff. So I can do all these unusual and John Azure, like these deep concentration states for your mind, get very Trent, blissful or rapturous or tranquil are equanimous or spacious or formula sir
than usual experiences, and I've learned how to do all these things, because in I've read some good books and studied with some good people on GSM good training and seem to have some sort of talent for these things, and it turns out premature stream. Entry makes us a lot easier for a lot of people to get into these deeper states, which is one of the core benefits of it. For some, not everybody
so and I did a lot of daily practice, but I've got all these skilled and they're, not it they're, almost it right there, the very satisfying, very impressive to me, I'm you know I have a pride thing. It's true. I have older than arrogance thing. It's true. I admit that and I'm pretty impressed with my skills and talents and my early thirties, and I feel, like I'm done all these things, but yet there's this sense that it is not the last. It is not the thing you want. All these things are cool, but it's not the thing. I want there's something wrong at the center of it. There is a problem there still like this. Annoying not like unbelievable, the track sense of subtle. Something still wants to own this. Do this be this control this something and its maddening
it's more and more maddening, as I get more and more disenchanted with off my skills abilities and whatever else I have attained so finally, again this retreat with this incredibly good meditation teacher again inside out Whoop Anita Junior, to distinguish him from the side of open data senior. Who is one of my hussy side, as chief disciples and lineage transmitter, guys his written good books that you should look up anyway. The point is that, but he's sorry younger, mossy sight, o abbot. The story, but also very, very impressive and he's the first meditation teacher I've spoken with who, when I presented all my skills and abilities, my assessment of things was just like yeah, ok, fine and by the way, this.
And he would sit there. And I would describe all my wild experiences and I was getting released. Formless realms doing it more exotic things like a tango state called the road of summer potty with the cessation of perception feeling we kind of put yourself in her like a coma at the very unusual to be here within two we're fine, but anyway he would listen to all this wild stuff, and here yeah yeah, yeah, ok, but just this so nice any time and he would just hold his hands out wide and hold the space, and it was just I know he gets it, and I know I doubt, and that is like the most unbelievably maddening but inspiring thing all at the same time and then after a week of me like floundering, randalls, impressive stuff, he finally says: ok, yeah yeah yeah, but at some point you're going to get your concentration straw and, unlike and I'm simultaneously like really
kind of offend exam like I think I have very strong concentration, but I might but clearly it's not I don't have to understand what he's talking about, because I can see. I can feel this really here. There's something I don't and he's got something to teach me, and I say: ok, I'm gonna listen, So I go back to really terawatt basics, three characteristics, six cents stores and permanence suffering and no self, and six henceforth the ordinary you know seeing hearing feeling etc. But I decide to do it was like us like ok, what could be stronger concentration and this I say hundred percent capture. I'm gonna go for a hundred per cent capture. I'm not gonna, a single sensation of any size include sensations of space consciousness. Memory, mental impressions intentions sites? HANS fiscal sensations, not a single one arise and vanished without keep, perceiving it to arise and vanish on its own and see the suffering in it.
This is an incredibly crazy thing to sort of attempt from a certain point of view, but I dont care at this point. I am sick to death of whenever I have I'm willing to tear it all to shreds and I'm going to go back to basics, and I take my relatively hypo manic sort of Taipei. Achievement and turn it to this task, and I start shredding my reality and I start trying to literally see the beginning and end of every single sensation, which ends up like you know, it's like mine has become this crazy, like machine gun like thing that dances into the wide voice, but it's like a three dimensional spacious machine gun? I don't even know how to explain that at some point you start like ok, yeah, but it's not fast enough. It's not clear enough. It's not complete enough. It's not wide enough. It's not powerful enough. It's not concentrate enough. unlike what else to have, I got what else? How how can I do this sunlike and I'm ramping up and power this gonzo crazy sort of way and things are getting really wild? Sir
as point like my reality, is like dissolving a divorce with every step taken. Take meditation dislike anyway. I won't bother describe it all. The pointers, Stuttgart and weird and eventually after a week of this and like pushing it with every single thing I have I'm totally exhausted and at this point in sight, Michael's had been whipping through, like sometimes every few minutes, sometimes look like every ten seconds. I mean it's getting caught, and realities been striving in disappearing and we appearing and vanishing and reconfiguring and flexing and flashing to the point. literally I'm walking around the room, seeing like the room is, if it's like a straw, blight vortex insane maelstrom like psychedelic, crazy
case. I've done something pretty unusual to my brain. At this point and finally, like I can't do this anymore, I'm sick, I'm out, I'm exhausted. That's all have its every single thing. I've got if, if it takes more than not, I don't have it and I cut the power it's like early afternoon towards the end of the second week of the retreat. And I start working cross the meditation hall, and there is, if you ever go to malaysian Buddhist meditation second floor. It is like the station there are still there where they had like the Asian version of Tang and some serve hot chocolate drinks that you can drink. If you want em like gonna replenish. My shirt restores and take a pause, and, I noticed that my mind went through what I call suffering to fruition, which is where we already gets torn away from you and the suffering or for what This kind of weird cause- this is the one where it like when they talk about, like you finally realised the hot call your grasping and then you let it go. This is with that metaphors talking about so
it feels like reality is torn away from you feel kind of like you die almost like is like, but she's word sullen birds, but literally feel like yourselves, like ripped out of your chest or something anyway. Forgive me traditional business freezing outward so, but that come with the feeling is like right and so and then everything disappears. fears except I went through a suffering door fruition and there was no suffering in it. It just felt clean, clear there no sense of violation of a centre point. There is no sense of anything that anything was ripped away from. There was no sense of that kind of creepy violating feeling that happens when that happens as like weight, because I've been through thousands. things by this point. I know them well, I'm kind of obsessive micro phenomenon just so like microphone, I'm an artist, meaning I pay attention all little blips and flutters and changes in shifts and really see if I can see exactly what's going on in kind of an obsessive way- and this was totally different like well suffering Gore fruition with them and then my mind flips over and everything's, just as it is
Everything that annoying sense of do her watch her controller, nowhere beer that some have been in the background, but I couldn't find despite years trying was gone and everything was just clear and everything was just happening on a tone and the cycles of insight could happen perfectly. Naturally, they did not matter. It is not about them and their assist. This amazing straightforward clarity to everything, and so I went and reported this decide our group on deeded dinner and he's like his eyes were lighting up and black sea like his usually really celebrate and he's like. And finally he he there's. Only three people in the rumours like means ten precept sort of equivalent, not quite none but she's, some sort of someone monastic in white. And him and it points in earnest wearing white, she's, wearing white ass, snow and says I'm like I did you.
and say: oh, my god, he said. Did you hear what he said? Did you hear what he said in his eyes like lighting up like this, I'm like talking about what has just happened as like everything does come and goes in. That's fine, and this is just fine and it doesn't like everything. Is it equally every single It has always been it and if you can t always like really like, he's. Trying to be stock is really funny. So I said that was the thing and then there's there's more out past that I could go into. But the literal point is through very straightforward techniques and simple assumptions: three characteristics, six and stores done well, you literally can hardware these understandings into your brain and that's the important message for anybody. Listening not that some guy on upon cast is like in a blowing his horn or whatever the most important thing for you is it for some strange reason you feel inspired to go through all the weirdness can sometimes occur.
And dedicate that level of resource to it, which who knows how much that might be. I know some people who did it way less time than me way more easily, so it doesn't need to be this big project in the same way, it was for me first somewhat. As for some, it takes longer some it's much harder. I don't know I'm somewhere in the middle. I think actually is this goes but its doable, and you can do this if you decide and or as you know, something in the middle stages of insider passer, whatever these are doable, thinks it I've plenty friends who have this path and attainments- and if you hold out a shingle, it says: hey I've path at him Before you know, there are other people who come out of the woodwork and like I can't talk about this thing, but can I talk about with you we can be friends and suddenly you're in this call network of people who are interested in these kinds of mental transformations or whatever you want called. Was That's what you said to do to put out a shingle to write this book here, give it away
for even by it, but you also gave it away. Your website is a pdf. That's how I did it. I downloaded it and read it rake ten years ago, and now I don't do this the money, and yet you don't do this for the money Europe the brakes, physician at the time I don't even take donations turned it. Yes, so you giving away his book and you would talked it didn't you sat a community on the internet and people come talk you, and so I that's how I heard of you. I was gonna retreat Hosanna Retreat inside meditation. Society are sitting next to some kid who just graduated from Yale and he was really into meditation and what was the part where you could talk right before we go into the silence it is like whispering. Have you heard of Daniel Ingram and I said no cases doctor says he's enlightened and other theatres. You don't think I do not wish to say that your enlightened, which we should talk about, why you're not supposed to say aid, etc, etc. Gaucho I was wow Dharuma controversy and knew no. There is such a thing.
and so I will after the retreat. I printed out the book and read it and then we became we. I've made it my business to become friends, you etc, etc, so you got a shingle a you wrote this book called the the mastering the proceedings of the Buddha mastering the core teachings at the Buddha, an unusually hardcore dharmu buck? Yes, any road, I by Doktor Daniel Room the are hot Daniel emigrants. Play weirdly enough. Don't mix my doctor life, my meditation localised I'm about to do a little bit more of that someone in this research staff so that the M D Need mast, Emma's, Ph Master signs and public health. I was actually in a Phd programme and epidemiology. At one point I just instead of article the course work. Instead of doing that, I walked across the street. Went medical school then do my dissertation anyway. So but I rarely mixed those worlds inside I don't. Usually
mixed, the doktor thing in like so the doktor does not appear on the book, but does it here is by the hour higher Daniel Angry Moreira, thee, something than new sword, the interdependent university guidance it yes in there and when the versions of it, that was the over anyway, you call yourself in our hearts and which, traditionally used it as somebody who is fully enlightened like now gone, we're all negative emotions of rooted are, is, is greed, hatred and confusion? Actually, I would add that this other, could be a very long conversation of why I think that is not as accurately traditional interpretation, as you might think, but go on.
And also the Buddha clearly said he was more enlightened than the rest of his our hearts. That's also canonical so its full enlightenment, in this case technically is Buddha. Hood, not our hardship. The Buddha was an hour hot, but also claimed to be so much more. I will leave verification her refutation of those claims to somebody else, but the point is this is actually the word full enlightenment loaded term, and so I explicitly have never said that I am fully enlightened. Nor do I believe that I am a full Buddha info can one hundred percent convinced I am not, and so just to help. Yes, I'm claiming something very impressive, but now I'm not quite claiming that thing you, SAM claiming looking people freak out about this. Why do people freak out about yeah zillion reasons so where, where to start like It depends on how cynical you want me to be and how ungenerous you want me to be. Ok, let's just start with the fact that
Traditionally, it is true that discussing attainments has been relatively taboo and a lot of cultures and a lot of times a lot of places and that certainly relatively true in asian countries, except they have this bizarre So when Mohammed inside our scientists book are hot sorry, I got my upon data. So if you pick up a practical insight, meditation it assigned aha Magua upon data Mars, he sighed out that title means our heart. In addition to a whole bunch of good scholarship rights, that's what that word means and if you were in a traditional asian country, would you know he sang ass. The name are hot same with the book: Liver Moody Magua, which is my favorite of the commentaries. This is a sort of a book that summarised lot of bullets: meditation techniques from somewhere on the first century commoner, I see eighty,
every one of them and I M so it's also signed the hour hot, who petitioned the Buddha himself was very into saying. He was an hour hot and also elaborating detail all the other things he could do all the powers and all the other additional insights holiday things he had. He also was constantly calling out other people around him, as our hearts and people would say they had attained our hutch back in the traditional british saga. I can is full of this news stories and then somewhere along the way that got lost or miss translated or like you could never say at or when, when, if you gotta asian countries was all this code, so they just don't set directly, often but they'll say it, and the tibetan tradition like they're, not letting you where certain fancy Hathor have certain fancy titles. Unless your seriously awakened right or somehow, then summoned your seriously awakened. Even if you aren't right so there's this whole system of disclosure of openness about these things there practical dislike. You know when I walk into the room in the west,
seem written, see, medicine and walk in, and I say I'm Doctor Daniel Ingram cause that's important for them to know that right, I'm your doktor today not attack nurse other. They are very important. There really are, but today my functional role as as your doctor and that's my training and you need to know That's all. We have the interaction now and in the same way, back in the day and in modern times you see this all time in asian countries and even some degree in the west. Now where people will mention their claims and there payments and what they can do. So you have the sense. Oh yeah, this is doctor earth or the sister they can take up. My appendix this is an hour hot ice. Reasonable discussing lightened, went with them and that's how I view it now. That can also cause problems right, so people claiming things that they dont have people arguing over what the criteria are exactly how they relate of emotional range stuff and how these relate to dark emotions or troubling. Emotions are negative emotions which we ve touched on a bunch of happy together. You know until people argue about these words and these things, but so
yeah there was out a thing: is Buddhism came to the West were then came first and then doesn't and a lot of ways as not there weren't elements and terawatt or whatever, but no some internally in America, then was a stronger press, before they care about and incite stuff was, and they really don't talk about. Stages of states must really not not be people, ok, cool the reason not to be might be, and it can be helpful, sometimes not to be, maybe get that and then when some of the early insight practitioners, particularly inspired by Outshine Jha, who is tie forest and really did not like taking talking about the stages of incite, though everybody. If you would ask anybody, the monastery is a trench on our hot. They would have said yes, which a sort of this bizarre game and
dance, everybody, plaice and sole same thing. With my hussy side, I was claimed by our hot plenty of other people claim to be our hearts in Burma and Thailand and other places. Sri Lanka. Sarah, I'm not as much of Sri Lanka, and so then, when it came to the west, though a lot of people to said this is gonna cost too much competition which it does cause lot of competition. Sometimes this is gonna. Try cause too much comparison, which it does sometimes true. This is gonna caused much judgment and were too hard on ourselves were tune erotic. We can't even handle that there might be hierarchy right or maps or levels of attainment and an it will cause neurosis, which is
those those things all occur. They were. They were right. The people who said we shouldn't talk about the maps or the levels of the states, the problems that the eight they identified, every single one of them. They correctly identified as a problem and the right I give them their arguments. There do ok, sure I've seen all of those things than my own community. In my life my own mind and my friends. These are all real problems, and yet there are also benefits to being able to talk about ups and I've seen lots of people. That is in optically when they like the dark night stages. They had no idea what the hell is going on here. I guess that's normal off the MP and suddenly there like outlets Norma, not like broken, I'm, not weird, I'm not. This freedom is not something horribly wrong with me. It's unexpected thing and then at normalization helps people and they can do something and they can engage in. They can forget. They can apply all these standard technologies that have been developed to help people on those stages, because now they have a diagnosis and they can apply appropriate treatment. That's really helpful for lottery. Will not everybody, not everybody likes them. Apps matter many thrives as with the maps, but some people really do and so to have the option
For people who like to be mapping and are willing to deal with the downsides- which there are some you know, This is a country where, in theory, the open flow of information, the lack of censorship and free speech are things we highly prized and like If you know that there are some people that I think, if there had been the Library of Buddhism, would have banned all the books that talked about the stages of insight, even the canonical ones. They cynical. But that's that's often not how we try to do things here and what we sort of semi give us the free world, and so I kind of rebelled against that sort of book. Benny shouldn't talk about it shouldn't tell anyone should keep the secret thing, and but stuff out there and knows that's cost good and bad effects not are good, but people really have appreciated at, and that is a thing that seems to work for them and I think they should have that valid option. So that's my argument for
why these things are a good idea, but also to give acknowledgement of the fact that the people who argue against disclosing these things are making reasonable points. It can cause a lot of future mind where people are not engage with that moment that would produce and sites, but instead chasing a concept of the future in their minds. That is now this moment and it can take people away from the very experienced the wake them up. Those are real downsides maps and, if you're going to go into a map tradition, you have to learn to work with those. In fact, the problem you can't and here the map. So if you listen to this podcast, your kind of toast sorry about that, right. So that's I mean we should we give informed consent about these things. Should you have at the beginning of this by the way this is gonna talk about the maps and the downsides, the maps as that you can't hear them, and now you might have judgment or comparison reactivity against people might have other levels of insider attainment right, and so maybe we totally avowedly should have put informed consent of the beginning of the year, but you know you- and I have talked about this before the deep end of the pool in the shallow end of the pool right. So you really your
thinking in the deep into the pool at I, as the Mr Ten percent happier, and trying to help people interested in doing a minute to five minutes attempted today about the shower the boy in our previous discussions of you still hold this view, you, you said, look, ok, that's tell a fine of people who just want to do a little bit too. You know improve their focus and lower their emotional reactivity. Great yeah, I mean I'd like it. That's it. It's always ready for an endeavour yeah, it's kind of like things, can do with water that are fun or good like something I want to sit in their hot tub for ten minutes a day. Right, that's great! I love her that's all they want to do their water. Some people want to do, our of water aerobics today as totally coughing with water to some people want to go white water rafting a lot more charred, maybe what more fun, maybe all lot more risk and some You crazy people like me want to go surf you no! Fifty two hundred foot waves off the coast of Portugal and a metaphysical sense, I'm not actually a surfer, but you know what I mean:
Like those are all totally valid cool things to do with water, they get you some exercise that might be exciting and interesting whatever I'm not. Things is all about excitement about more than that wisdom and deep personal transformation, but in the same kind of way, like. It would be bizarre if you couldn't tell anybody that, like in a white water, rafting existed or if the people who did what what a raft and got all down on people who sought their hot tub for ten minutes, just relaxing and chilling out after a stressful day. Out also- equally weird but them, rotation world is often like that, and so I would really like it not. You like that to realise there is arranged, there's room in this eco system for all of us. Those who, like the strange, deep and am- but actually I these days actually kind of focusing on the middle some in some ways. Those people who have gotten into some insight territory through meditation or through a yoga class or through a breath workshop or through Anthea organic experience, which a lot of my friends cross theorizing pass away the first time psychedelic, you know it s like it Alex or whatever you know at or just all kinds of
situations and some even his young kids. For no obvious reason, I guess there's some carmack causality to it, but I don't know what it is and then There are in it, and then there in this thing in this, which has been thrown in kind of can't, go back so helping people Unless these things and helping them learn to go forward and now deal with what might be going on and never cycling, that can occur in sorting out from bipolar disorder and all of these things and help and provide emotional support, and, and all of that is important, and so I think the language in the terms, the maps, the conceptual frameworks is held, with an appropriate looseness and majority can be very beneficial, but learning there is a learning curve there and so that learning curve and how to deal with the maps and do it in a mature, reasonable sane healthy way is in a one of the things that I think should be
more broadly taught and more broadly encourage. I want to say something in your defense, which may be awkward for you to say so, I'm going to say and then I'm going to ask you a bunch of hard question. Okay, It's not like you are going. Out there and saying hey on this enlightened guy, come give me all your money and follow me blindly, I'm walking around in robes whatever you until recently or practicing physician, who wrote a book with the goal, as I understood it and continue our understanding of helping other people get learn about the? As we said before deep end of the, pull over at your you're willing to pace and things that would be controversial and you are also made yourself accessible to people are questioning you and you never charged. You gave away the book, you can buy a hard copy of the book on Amazon, but do you can also get a free and your own sources of income. You were not looking for acolytes people to give you a ton of money. So I wanted to say:
that unless you and then move on to something, unless you want to add to it, I do actually want to address Oh, it's more than that. So not only am I not getting money for this small amount of money. I make from the book which people, like all my guys, mingles money, note steadily worse than like two thousand dollars a year and sometimes little as a thousand than after my tax bracket as a doctor that, like take in our path for that, and and then your I would use that to actually find the server time for the Doha round, which is a community. Founded within torn with Vince Hornets online. You can find it Dharuma overgrown dot org, which is a free community that I pay for as is well known, is part. Vince has been here. I guess I should say there super nice guy guy and I'm he helped me start that cause he had some technical skills. I didn't and Durham interest and thought would be good, and so that's a free online community that actually used a little bit of money I make on the book. It goes to support that, and so even that I don't keep from myself, and
I'm all the emails that I get. I answer them for free. Sometimes it takes me while to get them right so might beats weak, sometimes occasionally months. Every request for Skype calls identity There was, but I refer almost everybody out to somebody else, so I'm usually like yeah look community. There is actually a good teacher or hey, there's other centre. You should set out or there's other these people for teaching dogma and want students and so I'm not actually even wanting students. I dont have anybody. I think of my formal students are not running retreats that are open to the public eye You know sometimes gone little retreats with a few friends who are practice together. I'm sorry- and I actually yes, not looking for students, I'm not looking for money, I'm not looking for power. I dont the only organisation. Iran is this online forum, but almost never have to do anything authoritarian about except ban the occasional person that causing a bunch of trouble and so I am I'm doing it, because people were kind enough to teach me freely and they taught
even more than that, they taught me honestly so Bill Hamilton were honestly talk about the stages of it ass. He sighed out honestly talked about the stages of insight, can focus very early on Hudson taught me some things would talk about the stages of insight, etc, and so in this way I'm passing on what people were kind enough to do. For me as a changed my life, it opened horizons. I didn't know where possible. It allowed me to attain things. I had no idea existed and I'm incredibly grateful for that, and they taught me for free, Christopher chip. Titmouse didn't charge me though Hamilton charge me none of them. in a normal that no Christina Feldman, even they weren't charging me money, and so there was no financial relationship. Nor were they looking for me to be their student. I wasn't crisper ones. Opium company, my students was never say anything like that and so
in that same kind of way, I'm passing on that same spirit. This is nothing weird about me. This is just like that's the truth and I was brought up in that's the model I was exposed to. I thought it was beautiful. I thought it was really in keeping with the tradition reaching said the poorer and sun following this model and there's nothing particularly weird about that: causality, ok salami the hard questions. How do you know you're? Not deluding yourself about your levels of attainment? Yes, that's a great question so The very interesting thing is my immediate experiences so radically different from how it was that's incredibly compelling it certainly possible delusional. Although the other people, I've talked we have managed to reproduce the experiment where all clearly victims
same delusion, psycho open data juniors. If, if I'm deleted, then he's deluded because he thought I had attained to this thing, if I'm divided them go Hamilton was deleted. Then Mars, he sighed out, perhaps whose deluded perhaps raw crazy, except I
train trade, this for anything, except maybe world peace, and then I would do it reluctantly. This is so much better of an upgrade. The level of since eight clarity I have is off the charts. The the sense of naturalness, the entire thing unfolding, the sense of a door is totally gone, has not arisen again at all under any circumstances, since that retreat in April two thousand and three the sense of light or awareness, that's in everything, the sense of the sort of linear things, processing everything is utterly gone and nothing seems to change that I've had the flu had no serious pain of broken bones. I, like nothing, changes that basic things the mind is now clear. It seems to flip over to some different way of proceeding reality that bomb proof I mean
maybe I could stroke out some part of my brain it with a jerk. I don't know, but barring that it seems like it seems to handle everything and so with the sense of a watch. Her a subject. Adieu were a knower, a stable entity, all being totally eradicate you can call that whenever you like pick your favorite term for it. If you don't like the word, our hotter, you don't like the word path or you don't like the word. Whatever running your to call it anything, nor do you even have to believe it, but what I recommend doing the experiment for people who want to see for themselves. It's easy to criticise right, it's easier, you're, just not ok, fine! Maybe I am but the first principles of it that perhaps you could pay attention to these straightforward aspects of reality clearly and then learn to perceive them Automatically dislike you learn to read automatically is not a weird set of assumptions:
and so way more important than some do babbling and a hyper manic voice on a pod cast. Is that if your interested in the stuff you go, do the experiment, so the Buddha in everybody else's go see for yourself. I'd go check it out. If, if this calls to you and if it doesn't and you're not willing to do, The experiment then be a little hesitant some of your criticisms. Not that scepticism is warranted. Totally is, I was all kinds of scuttled call about all the stuff into a started happening to me as like, really again, very, very scientific materials, thickly rigid for the first half my life and then all of a sudden, mouselike. Okay, now the stuff is happening. I can't that paradigm doesn't work for me anymore
strived attitude of the beauty of the state in which you claim to live right now, but I wonder whether you are I mean I'll say I consider your friend. I think your awesome, but you retain some human foibles, like you, tops lugging hypo manic, you top up to talk a little bit about arrogant. How can those things be true of urine as enlightened as you say, so it's a bunch of different analyses that I use so, for example, the Buddha the Buddha was he's talking about how awakened here His very name means I am awaken the name he chose for himself and like hid, the first person who talk to that. Wasn't a god or a giant snake with this wandering ascetic who who said well, you were here This growing dude, what's up and he's like, I am awakened- I am the know how of world you know, tamer of God, it's in humans. You know, you know
surpassed in my ex in our blah blah blah blah. Like the first person I ever met, he friggin unloaded this unbelievable list of incredible stuff. He was right. I'm not doubting. maybe he was all those things cool like somehow. His teachings are still incredibly profound, personally, transforming twenty five hundred years later that some that says something you know he clearly impressive right and he was not afraid of saying it at all right and so the Buddha, self unless you're willing to oh, he was a is arrogant, but it was the ok yeah, but that arrogance part that confidence part that telling it like he thinks it is part of red the Buddhist text with that. Filter and start looking for that. You, like oh yeah, actually, and so the history of the life
the Buddha there was constant conflict and struggle. He had back pain. He had bad headaches that were like debilitating had bad back pain that was to build taking addressed. A bunch cannot kinds of conflict with people. He argued people use really like harsh language with people. Sometimes, like oh knows, just the Buddha you confront no, but like a thousand like pay attention pay attention to the that what the stories actually tell You read it and with that filtering, ok, wait a second and then look at modern times right. So like plenty, people go to Asia. There like yeah this, our hot monk, throwing a rock and a dog like what's up with that. So just because, as Chino said is, is it John Geier, then Cream John? and then he said just because the sun is shining brightly, doesn't mean all the snow mouth melt at once and the ocean that the simple fact of perceiving that things are notion.
We women s, ephemeral empty in whatever you want. You know pick your favorite words for this kind of x. Current that doesn't mean it suddenly rights or biological or culture or in our childhood conditioning. This just isn't true, you'd be sort of like imagining that. Everybody who is a great piano player, of course, would be a great writer right there. They have incredible skill hitting keys all day long, they make beautiful music and yet is every great piano player who can keys really well all day long and play beautiful music, a great writer, I'm not sure, that's true, and I'm not sure why you would think that were all great writers, great piano players, everybody you can type really well and right really well. Oh great piano, play as now. It seems so closely related. You think, of course, but ok wait, no and in the same way,
if way, modern reality testing, so I've had plenty of teachers. You ve heard of come up and say hey that thing. You claim to have done. I've done that too, and then we'll talk about it as one of the really sort of I am honoured to have had some of those conversations. That's really grateful that people get to have those and them they talk about it and yet doesn't perform like they yeah. They can still no make love with their partners. They can still be irritable and they get hungry like they're. Still some physiology like it it off the traditional presentation. The text just does not hold up to modern reality, testing and yet the fact of insight and in the sea
just the scene in the hearing. Just the herd totally does is totally doable today, and so I guess you have to do with modern reality, testing and empirical methods right. Can you reproduce the experiment and then, when lot to repress people reproduce the experiment? What did they find? You can find that some of it holds up really well and some of the traditional mess and dogmas just don't actually and so that I am also a scientist rights. I have, I must ph epidemiology and an M data published papers and journalists and stuff Like some, I appreciate that Empiricism empiricism in both sense of the words that were doing the experiment and reason your own experience as the basis of reality. So that's my answer. You talk, but the do a bill of this, but I do believe you really mean cannot has something in my position with a kid in a bunch of cats and to jobs
can I really achieve stream entry, not not to mention our hunt ship. I know people who get straight customary actually without even practicing. So occasionally it even happens. But actually I know people have gotten even higher pass the not without doing anything. You would comment data has happened for me that the problem is rather unthinking. Yes, no black white dimension. So I categorically about this. We need to think dimensional. There is clearly a bell curve to this stuff and their dose dependent sort of probability shifts who it is true that people who practice more gone, more retreats you know, have better concentration or whatever sit with better teachers. It's true, all those things are going to increase the probability that these things are likely to happen. But I know people who did the stuff in daily life worth complicated.
Who just either were just a few natural towns. I know a few people were desperate, natural's. Okay, so will ignore the supernatural talents who, just they ve, just gotta. Mozart was writing symphonies at age, for there are a few of them People another was meditating, I'm jealous. I was not one, but ok, they exist. There are not many. And then you have people who, like me with a whole bunch of work and a bunch of retreats and a bunch of practice, can do the stuff. And then you have people who I know a few people have gotten paths in daily life. Literally, People have gone on no retreats and they just some practice and they were meticulous about the daily mindfulness, single activity. You do accept some certain types of inner processing, cognitive work and certain sort of conversational things sometimes really
pretty amenable to just noticing their true nature, noticing their arising passing way of little blips and flickers that make up that experience, noting them paying really careful, meticulous attention to their vividness. Their vibrancy all little details of little moment to moment up up up up up up up up up up, and so it is possible with diligent practice and dedication to lead a active life. Headache, hectic life and do this. Is it is easy now? Can it be done? Yes, and I know people who have done it one of the: u, oh you talk about this before it in your defence, but one of the criticisms of you is that people like me serve Taipei. Ambitious people hear you talk and give very inspired, and they It very our practices get in use their real striving neck india hindrance. True, I mentioned earlier and totally absolutely true, a great point and so what would it? What do we do about that yeah? So one has to be very, very
If I have a chapter in my book, my book again, which you can get for free it embassy tb, dot orgy, so there's a chap, recalled a clear goal. And in the chapter called a clear goal. I talk a lot about working with that future problem. That striving problem so you have people who say: I'm gonna get it, frightened, ok and then you have people say I'm going practice really well and get enlightened menu people who say I'm gonna practice right here noticing these sensations in my body mind so that I get enlightened and then you have people who are just now. Yeah, I'm gonna notice. These sensations right here in my body, mind right here right now, the sensation this breath the site the sound. This moment these fingers, these feed, walking to the parking going in the elevator, walking down the hallway, go to the bathroom, brushing their teeth eating a meal, you know waiting for the subway. Whatever their doing you know going to bed walking, you know putting on their slippers, they're gonna pay attention.
That those are the people you're gonna bet on winning right. If you are a betting person which you serve ass from a question, what, this is your probability is kind of a better game. If you had a bet, you're gonna bet on that one, because that's a person Who now has a very, very mature skilful? relationship to the problems with the maps with striving and the the so someone who has finally recognised this here in this spasm long body in this moment is where I find it or I don't. There is no future moment that is at it is this moment or it isn't, and you just go ok right here again again again and what's really interesting is like when you teach people on retreat or you gone retreats of people people your practice together, you can can people who finally dropped into that groove and it feels really good to be around them. There's something just so nice about that. There are like now the psychic because their claiming their power
right there, really claiming their power and directing it well and their claiming their birth rate. In this moment, to be clear about it and to be wise about, and to understand it as it arises, and they ve got that fundamental concept down MR delightful to be around in that same way, people who are really stripy and really competitive and really does make, an irritating agitated being around like you know, and you can tell it's causing them more suffering nuts. and this is a danger again, that the people who criticised the mat base, traditions or even making these six publicly disclose their right and that but there is a way to grow up with that, just like in sports rights, I wonder where little kids you make it right the angry when we're playing a sport like the other team, you no one, and we glass in their crying and angry in their screaming, and their dislike so upset the pair might be the same way. You are the mad soccer, mom or soccer dad or whatever he's a basketball, mom death best about that
now, wherever there are all in the same kind of way, but there are people who grow up and like you know they play great game sports another one time, one one team moss, but they all I had a great. They were had a great time playing the game and they'll shake each other's handed the. Unless he next game, ok, see no scam, you know, he's got a whole different feel to it and that's like mature sport, ship, in the same way with the Dama, mature competition or mature comparison and have a really fun. Jovial playful, inspiring fields will again man that was an awesome passing through, but next time I'm gonna throw an even better one, and that kind of like collegial fun attitude, as it is an attitude we adopt for all kinds of other things right and that's what we hope to see in champions right so like the champions we like in the Olympics are. The ones were like in a really nice people really congratulated the other team or the people that didn't get the gold when they did ride with me. Why? Yes, I got to go, Erica like oh yeah: ok, not a good right and so
same kind of way. We we learned this for all kinds of other skills in areas of life and academic degrees, and you know what car you, Dr Weir, I would have you know and what we see the baton. people weakened. There's some people learn to be mature in the face of competition in comparison. This is something we done for so many other things. Why can't we do it for this? Of course we can. In closing, let's do what I call the plug zone. Can you just don't you you gave us the website for the book, but you ve just described New edition of the book, where we can get it where we can find the dogma over ground where we can find you etc, etc. Give us the whole thing: ok, so there is no- bring the court's regions of the Buddha which you can dots are you can read, are free and soon left. We will be able to download a pdf for free at w www w dot, m c d b, dot o orgy, you sound like a radio and thanks
and then I actually have another site with us and friends of mine called W W w dot fire Cacena DOT, Org EF, I r e k S eye and a thought o Archie and that's actually about using candle flame, meditation object, its also free. You can there's a free book, you can download their or you can print went LULU. We don't get any money from that. We just haven't charge. The printing costs were not making a red sent after that book and dumb You're all kinds of interesting reports of what happens and people do candle flame and go deepen that practice and then the dogma around which the community of practitioners who, like talking openly about these things, it's an online form with all the glories and problems of an online forum. You, no sir, you know but adds double
W, W Dot, DARPA De H, a r m a over ground over yard. Ye are, oh you indeed, Otto Archie answer. These are some places you can funds on my stuff or my own website is integrated. Daniel dot info spelled just like you figure and social media. So I'm on Twitter at Daniel Am Ingram, I think, is the major one where you find me a sort of social media and a book just so people know is. Is Europe while I read the first addition, but it's basically your story and practical tips. So I took the first edition the book which had almost no autobiographical details, and I made it twice as long like a hundred and sixty thousand words or whatever. Now it's like three hundred and twenty thousand so yeah, the gigantic hog of a book, I'm working on a summary for how long it is, but it added all kinds of additional details about concentration practices, a whole lot of additional details.
in practice, tips that come out of me telling my stories. If you want to hear the story, you can read all about it in the book and I went into a whole lot of other topics that I haven't got into the same kind of way like dependent origination and actually talking about these things skilfully. An powers and a whole bunch of other stuff hours, yeah yeah, a careful! That's that's it discussion for a different path cast, but whether one can achieve powers is any like super normal powers, as yeah and interesting this red real magic by Dean Radon our idea. I am yes, he just dangle but away just recommended at me over lunch, which preceded the shaping of this pact. Yeah do you. I really perceive Heaven on the past, and I appreciate you being a friend, you ve been a huge influence on my thinking about these issues.
I've been long long overdue to have you on, on the show delightful, enjoying your friendship with. Well, sir, thank you so much for have man has been fun and I hope that you are able to get something useful practical for yourself as a practitioner and don't get too caught up in the details or story of just one dude cause. That's not as helpful as you learning these things for yourself, The place close links by ok, big thanks to Daniel Ingram there, as reminder, were not do voicemail this week there is yours. There was a lengthy episode, alot of pre quite needy but we are looking for a new voicemail to, as I said, six thousand four hundred and sixty eight eight hundred and thirty, eight three hundred and twenty six six hundred and forty six, eight thousand eight hundred and thirty, eight three hundred and twenty six I mentioned this episode in Particular- is provoking a lot of questions so feel free to call us with your questions. you can also, if you're an app subscriber, you have burning questions or frustrations or whatever new goals. Based on what you just heard, you can ask your coach on the app go to the coach
find a coaching feature and are coaches are standing by and very happy and eager to answer any and all of your questions, big thanks, although who put together the show, rang Kessler, Samuel, Johns, Grace Livingston, among others, big? Thank you as well to our little feedback group that gives us feedback on ever. Give me feedback on every episode. That's an immense! valuable really appreciate that, and thank you too you for listening as Always we love it when you re Us Review S, talk about us on social media that boost their ratings and more people find us. I will see you, Wednesday a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona I was pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people who are sitting up
every day. This is my my day last day of the cylinder stretch of proteins for one of our ten, and these are America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new plants from Ebay, see news you going from damaged and even worse I. She went back to my office inside crying because it's not fair hearing here, making sorry that our community smiled faintly moraine. This is essentially inside the from the Urgency by the police cruiser to the czech outline. You hear what this pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves no one's way. There's always a risk that I could breathe is home to my kids. Are my husband or my parents? Listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast revision, podcast him.