« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

#197: Escape from Zombieland, Koshin Paley Ellison

2019-07-24
Human beings are wired for social connection. Sadly, thanks in large part to the internet, mobile phones and social media, we are seeing an increase in social isolation. Zen teacher and psychotherapist Koshin Paley Ellison refers to this diminishing of social interaction and intimacy with other individuals as Zombieland. In our conversation, and in his book "Wholehearted: Slow Down, Help Out, Wake Up," he hopes to help others rediscover their values and discover a way to truly live life to the fullest. Plug Zone Web: https://zencare.org/ Books: Wholehearted: https://www.amazon.com/Wholehearted-Slow-Down-Help-Wake/dp/1614295255/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KDFHIQH761J0&keywords=wholehearted+slow+down%2C+help+out%2C+wake+up+by+koshin+paley+ellison&qid=1563975290&s=gateway&sprefix=wholehearted%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1 Awake at the Bedside: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1614291195/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i1 Zencare Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/zencare-podcasts/id369948549 Instagram: @koshinpaleyellison Twitter: @koshinpaley Facebook: @koshinpaley ***VOICEMAILS*** Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail: 646-883-8326
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe see the ten percent happier vodka in her mind caution. Hayley Ellison has this thing where he talked about how we all live in in some land. Are humans? Are, I should say, wired for self centered, this solecism or at the the writer David Foster. Wallace wants to put it we. We live all of us in these skull sized kingdoms. But Kocians point is that in this era of mobile phones and social media, it puts these. You know ancient self centered impulses on steroids, we're all candidates walkin around on our own little worlds and his answer is, and we ve done plenty of pike. S on. You know how to manage a really should protect, but his answer is much more holistic way, which is this one?
intimacy. That is a tricky word in encrusted with all sorts of cultural cliches, but caution really defines it as a very simple way, which is an amusing. I think these are as yet exact words here completely allow yourself to be wherever you are in a spontaneous way. So this This can be with you romantic partner, your colleagues, the bereaved at Starbucks. It doesn't really matter and cushions goal is to do for intimacy, what's already been done for mindfulness, in other words, to make it a widely asp regional skill. He is the co founder of the New York Centre. And centre for contemplative care. One of the many things they do at the and centre is a train people to volunteer in hospices. You may have heard me talk in the past, but how my wife and I went through their training and as a result, became really good friends with caution and his husband Jodo, whose also
the other co founder of the centre at Choto and were on the show together back in episode, seventeen, but I wanted to bring him back for this episode because cushion has this new book called whole hearted subtitle is slow down, help out wake up, I should say a lot of people come on here who are friends but cushions, and especially close one ppm kyoto work at our house for dinner on Sunday. I was sweating next to a man of bacon, spin class last night, and this interview is, I think, is it as a consequence of our friendship really candid and really revealing. We talk about The concepts I've already mentioned, like zombie land intimacies spontaneity also something called healthy embarrassment and he he opens up in some in some ways it I find quite brave and admirable about horrible things, he endured when he was a kid and how he recently had a super aggressive troll who was recently arrested
a quick note before we role here cushion, has some talks up in the ten percent happier apt that are worth checking out and they relate to stuff that we talk about on the show today, if you ve, missed the talks section on the EP, go check it out a new feature spatially. These short talks for five ten minute zapped. wisdom and yet you can go check him out the ep anyway enough. Here, caring for me, let's listen now to cushion Paley Ellison Lesser Nicety translations entered Thank you. Thank you. What is on land? zombie land for me, is the way that we are just moving around and are alive, you see, bodies moving like I just came from twenty third straight, and you see people they see the boy.
bodies walking down the street, but there are in distraction and they're just like hungry and there the if you look at their people's eyes when they're looking into their phone their walk and just like room. You can almost feel like a zombie cloud they have asked if liked Laguna like that, what they need to eat the brain that they need to eat is inside the phone, Anna, heartbreak and amazing in I saw this person morning, coming out of Starbucks on their phone with their latte or whatever it was like when they bumped into someone walking down the street and they're like to eat without even turning away? for one second minded might as well just like you and that's just how it can be. Why was the zone?
argued for you that involves zombie land right at the front of your book, Me is one of the things that are most concerned about, and I feel that in my practice, then teacher and as psychotherapist and as a I of care person. I feel that see it all the time this, the blinders feels thicker than ever, where people don't wanna, see really what they see and then it's almost like that, but she'll, it's like a shield over people's eyes and that just feels heartbreak and yet there's this incredible hunger. and I feel like it's actually one of the reason cited. What inspired me back connects zombie like quality, that, taking over, and that's why I like in the book. I talk about you,
the how pervasive social isolation is and how people are so fragmented and not actually connecting with the people who are they really care about? And it's one of the dynamics of our time, and I think that there be no mistake that you know of these zombie. tv shows and movies are constantly in people's minds and zombies actually come from. One of the origins of the term come from orphan children, where they're, just like starving for father and mother for warmth and care, and I feel like actually knowing and of our care where it comes from, is makes it even more interesting is
where are the lack of society becoming a society of orphans? Where are we don't even know how to connect to our partners and to our friends in it? So sad and we see social isolation you're the cost of its leading to know, I don't know exactly the causal link here. But we see social isolation at the same time as we see rising anxiety, depression, suicide rates, special among young people something's going on here and obviously A lot of it can be linked to the phone and the social media apps on the phone, but has also Oh just the way we live now too. a bowling alone. That great book by the Harvard researcher came up for the phone. The far as I can remember with the whole idea that we we now, this was a famous book about how we
we used to have bowling leagues. Now we ball alone in this, and so this is, this transit is trans going? for a long time. So what do you think we can individual somebody listeners. What what can I do about it for themselves?. That's a great question and to me the key is to really learn how to force a dress it and notice how our behaviors, united the historical but talked about that our actions are true belongings, like how are we actually functioning and me, be able to feel embarrassed and have a kind of a healthy embarrassment about how were functioning and to just appreciate how much of it is covering our own vulnerability and how we I'd because were scared and there's not that
is nothing new and though it's happened is that we don't have the connections that we used to have so we used to be you know, maybe forty thousand years ago, you know in the cave with our folks and of course, people are afraid It but now were afraid and feel vulnerable, and yet we don't have anyone to turn to and I hear this more more us thinking about my friend Torone up and in her turn A low dogs she's this incredible. physician midwife karate person Of course, I didn't expect crowded ass, using grandma's use of martial artist and an herbalist she's like this incredible being, she was talking about when people come into her practice for primary care.
Error that she asked them when the first things she asses, you know so hurry or five, who are the five people who right now we could call and no matter what they would be here- but she's been seeing since the eighties is. Maybe this is near the time when this really began to tell is that she experience as many people now saying well my sister, and then they reflect on that and say well, she's really busy. and she said, and then the silence after that is always what moves her as that people don't even often have one in a person who they feel even if they're married or
live with children, and they don't know who would really when the chips are down. Who would really show up, and so she writes on a prescription pad. You know find your five and said to me: That's one of the aspects. Also in the book that I talk about is how do you find your community and really work with their community, so you're feeling that kind of isolation? How do you. You know just feel your breath and really feel like what's happening in their life and feel your isolation and realise how much connection and care and love is important to you, How do you out by way? This is not some food Fufi Wu Tang here mean the
are wired for social connections comes to us. We can buy it honestly through something called evolution, and you know there's an expression of survival. Usinor studies like only monkey is a dead. Monkey is if you were lonely, kicked out of the tribe as early human died right as it is a reason why our bodies react. Very negatively to isolation because we are not wired for this, and yet modern culture is designed. Us has is dying designed in such a way that social connections have become weaker and weaker, more afraid and more fraid. So much what you just said that I wanted iraqi one is unjust. Thinking like with my five May, obviously my wife. You know, you're quite close with, because she is now involved in them. then centre in my brother, but it gets a little time. After that I mean I do have a lot of close friends and then I'm just thinking like who, which one of them
show up, no matter what and stained period of time that sir, it's get news dice your territory, and that says a lot about how we live now and lucky I have to. I can say for sure, will show up now and forever my mom, and I would say my dad, but he's got some help from so that's three. Ok, that's but that's problem. We employ way ahead of the game and having to think about it. So there there are two things I want to ask you, based on the foregoing. One is if you drink, dig in on healthy embarrassment, because we ve talk a lot on the show about the disutility of shame, but healthy embarrassments, interesting, ass, soon ass. I guess at all, a subtle distinction that may be very rich and then so I want to ask. I just want to push you further on what we can. If somebody is listening to this end,
Ok, well I can I can. I can maybe come up with one, but I can't get to five or I can't even get away Well, how does one go about creating these relationships are thrown to question that you take him in whatever you want. Other great questions. So healthy embarrassment for me is so important and one of the things I just you know I was just telling you that I finish doing the ADI price on the book inside are reading a lot of these stories that but sharing I felt so exposed and a little embarrassed like I said that I wrote that and just feel what that feels like wow
And I felt so yeah like the exposure and it felt when I really allowed the feline to actually feel in my body. I felt that while I can feel that and it didn't feel overwhelming, but at first it felt, like but then the more I got curious about the feeling I felt like, while its economy a little embarrassing moment. Wow. And to allow that. So I think that for me that Actually, maybe one of thy goes into your second question about. Allowing ourselves to be exposes like that beautiful say you wrote actually for me about your body and
just to fill that and I ran out of a hat until recently column and men's health. I made a pot present pause in that because, partly out of sight of a self compassionate impulse that I have too much of my plate, but for most of this year. I've had a column remains health, and I wrote something in there about base. A lot of the work that have done with you about coming closer to our mortality met, knowing that we're going to die when we're gonna get that in this talk in this ocean, but I wrote a poem talking about how I but it's a lie that I have this running dialogue around. While I've way too much fat around. My belly and just to Miami. My family is a concrete. You know you were at the beach, it's crazy, how much time- I am every time I walk past a reflective surface and I'm wearing just a bathing suit that guy fall back, this set the dialogue of the quite venomous self reproach and then paired with that is again a nudging toward fifty as our you and
Can I look in the mirror, like can't believe how old I've gotten and one of the this is a multi front battle, but one of the anti Doats, maybe antidote, is too strong, as that implies and sort of several cure. But one of the ways in which I have worked with this is tat, remember. Ok, I'm gonna die we're all gonna die. Maybe they will put things in perspective How much time do I want to spend worrying about my bed I or my increasingly pointy face anyway. So that's it. I just want to fill in the gaps there. Yeah, but I me I saw appreciate When you do that, are others do that, and then I feel that I can do that to me. It's like Jim, allow having yourselves to share, Even where we have gone from shame to a kind of reflection or shame to kind of a healthy embarrassingly there. I go again, Michael with my.
Venomous creature inside that says always nasty bangs, and to me, this is also where relationship is so important, because if I'm willing to do that in your willing to do that, then there is a possibility and a willingness to actually have a much more rich and but I think of as a loving relationship that we can learn of an appreciate one another in a different way and that were not used to, and yet, as you are saying, we hunger for. We want to feel scene and heard an experienced and to me as I, where I love you know, We can do in your asking about. Well, what can someone do? Listening is really pay attention to who in your life, do you want to know you and make have some
experiments so see if those relationships and make time for them in many people, We also live in this culture, where people here all the time, expression the lobby of our citizens and our building, I you doing bother on their funds. How you doing hurry then, and this busy crazy busy about you crazy, because it is in their flipping flipping, swiping away and. like that becomes instead of saying. our minds have the story of my dad. That actually add talked in the book about where they're in the grocery store by the tomatoes and this guy I says, hate, hey Richard. How are you- and he said good? How are you a message and normally they ve been see each other for another ten years people, grocery store, that you say they always had the same exchange. How're you good power. You good and this one day, he said well,
Do you really want now? Somebody's? Does your dad's Richard here and my dad thought for a moment and said yes, I do and then he began to share this story about his wife, Anderson, the struggles with one of their kids and actually what was happening all happening in the grocer I'll buy? The I was so amazing and they both embraced at the end of it, his people who seemingly were strangers, and yet because they are both willing to show up they were never the same again, you ass, the alike, is such a beautiful example were in our thinking about the car.
The place I'd like to go to in the various does like I love learning about what their dealers in their lives and their kids and school and all of the different things that are happening in their lives, what's happening for the summer weather get to the beach or not, and it's about having curiosity about the people there are actually in your life and people often find it so unusual Addison, in visiting us an uproar cyber we live in there. You know we're walking down the street and I was not going pray. farm people like I'm, a cushion cushion comes I was having all these interactions on the way to back the next corn, and how do you know all these people, rather like people on our neighbour like to me, had felt completely ordinary? It's not like that
stopping and having deep soul searching conversations in, but where does recognising each other and can like neighbour granted you stand out. You were robes now you have to tell you. No, but are absolutely right, and I mean I feel some may be healthy embarrassment, maybe something border and shame that that you know, you're my neighborhood. I know that many people, you know and if my neighborhood- and it doesn't take that much now- it's so ordinary hello, yeah, hey I get any changes, the it changes, the moment to moment character of your life, TOAD Wendy,. It's like the people right in our elevator at those where the enter is are in our house and outside, while, like I've gotten the no so many people and to me
It's just fascinating to learn about who actually, they actually are part of your life, and it's so interesting would like kind of the screens is just to me a metaphor, and may it could be us it's a symptom, but is also an image of languages. Like look, somewhere else when were actually where we are yet. I have really tried. train may pit. Maybe this is because I've gone through your initiative. First, I'm examines pie cast. I didn't know you at all or your husband, a man, for the first time we met. I think I think you and then we became friends like a pretty much immediately. When my wife, too,. My wife, and I took your- nine month, training course to become hospice. Volunteers had a big effect above us in many ways, and we have continued my friends and I think in part, but I think its multi fact horrible part, because I've taken this call percent I continue to volunteer and a hospice that that I'm trying to do better.
They frosty New englander, who is obsessed with his phone to actually look up and have relationship if, even if its, hello. Goodbye type thing with folks in my elevator in my building or folks in the bitter here at ABC News where work were recording this right now and it just kind of changes. The character of your day totally in a tree nuts like why? The subtitle for the bug is like slow down how bout and wake up its disobey such simple away. It's about! Oh your person, and I think that is helpful. Yeah. I think it's a too. I always like to appeal to the pleasure centres of the brain, and you don't- I think the Buddha did this quite well and and having positive interactions throughout your day feels good, I use this example the time, whereas, if you like, when you
the door open for somebody if you're paying attention if you'll get so? How scalable is that answer infinitely, An aura unite. I mentioned before that my wife and I were a vacation in Miami not long ago and and the way it is when you have occasion with a kid I didn't know this now, our kids for and I m o K. Putting a monoplane is not like that annoying to the people around us, and so I taking monoplane, we gotta Miami in you, where you're going I'm a vacation with a kid you and us in the Baltic turns And by the way, you're not gonna, be phone on you most Algernon Waterproof that I know of so Here gonna sit, Nepal, doing incredibly boring stuff with your son and here's the thing A million other people are gonna, be doing the same thing and Europe be unless you really are determined not to be social, Europe can be talking about. People you don't know days on every day and with their kids, as it turns out that, and I say this is again as a vow: anti social, frosty, new Englander, who doesn't like, say hello to strangers I've
to be immensely pleasurable to sit there all day, long in a pool trying to measure it didn't. I and Look at all these other cute little kids, just how can apparent. Had never met before and every day new people. Yes, sir, I think there's a lot to this, but but that is you once told me that you were hoping with this book and with your career generally to do- and I hope I'm going to say this correctly to do for intimacy what has been done for mindfulness. and I get an era when it's the most important thing right, but we ve been hey. We ve been having We ve been having. Met there. All these books, mine, included that her or try to scale up mindfulness.
at the idea out there. But there are many books about intimacy, and so your that's what that's the! If I understand it, that's really your push, but this daily stuff is different from generating your five and John. I guess I'm trying to get back to you talk a little bit about this, but how how we can make sure we have a five haven't. We can make sure we have really truly what I would think of his intimate relationships. Well, my hunch is that- and you know, I'm not a scientist, but that if can actually change our everyday interactions. There's more likelihood that work and have sure relationships and have a base of support for when we need to really cultivate deeper relationships. Like the five that we're talking and to me the p,
were you know so tight in their bodies and so tight with their honeymoon intimate with themselves and that there are not even half of relaxed in who they are And the other day I was teaching a group of ninety physicians and therein, this wonderful training programme and We're doing this exercise that this experience, where but our crossing a line for different reasons: ok describe what crossing the liner yes across the line is a way of understanding who your wealth and so, for example, the. Our group will stand on. One side of a room. there'll be a line, a literal line or not or let our alignment. So so I will say a plea,
his crossed the line you identify as a physician, for example, and cross the line and then looked back and saw the people get at it experience of looking at each other in their difference. and you know please cross the line if you have a meditation practice, and so some people cross the line or prayer practice are different things, and so we were just explore. Did you? I did this exercise with you once on a retreat as part of the hospice training programme, and it was really intense. I crossed the line if you ve lost a child crossed a lot. If you ve ever been homeless, people stepping across the line white. You never would have imagined right. It's very intimate so like a creator in if it's held well, I really shows our vulnerability and said requires a lot of trust and a lot of work. I, of course, have this.
the whole time I was in the training. I love the training and many levels, but of course had this constant dialogue of rebellion and complaint about have being forced to do. These group exercises the other record about that, but anyway, Carryin famously said. Yes but it was what was so interesting is that these physicians had the last question I said: do you know who please cross the line? If you feel that you do not have a life that integrated and it was so oh I mean even now, some of it and everyone cross the line. What are you everybody's, making defining for themselves what they mean by what you mean by integrated aid, define for themselves, and so many people wept there was that one and so we talked about it afterwards and one of the things that we explore
Is that how it meant so many different things to most people, but most people felt like that. They didn't it had to do with relationships, and I felt like that they did not. They were not living a life, the head really anything to do with what was most important. I took it to me like you're, not showing up as the same person at home as you are work as you are to volunteer work etc. To her, will people talked about things like that as well. As they didn't feel like they were treating their partners. How that what with the values they feel like our most important. They didn't feel like that. They were treating or actually living livelihood that actually was imbued with Those qualities that actually they feel like our most important and I put like the gauntlet down for it, and I was so moving and said to me as a kind of.
Sober timer, intimacy intimacies, I feel like intimacy with another word recall, is integration, and so that back of we're willingness to really appreciate our diversity in ourselves and that we have parts of ourselves that we want I'd parts or ourselves that We want to never see the light of day, and we all so have all of these things that we really care about, and how often are we actually live in those thanks and I feel like that more more, I think that's what some missing for so many people what am I supposed to go around town, everybody, my deepest darkest secrets, all of them. I thought that would be insane right No, but the willingness to have
certain relationships where you feel like that you could and ok but again it goes back. sort developing your five or your twenty right below them, however, whatever where you can be honest, open and I think that the more we can be a little more transparent. It doesn't and we have to like share everything with everybody that would be totally unhelpful, but learning that it likely that we have the capacity and can share what we want to share when we want to share and that we have the capacity and willingness to do it, and to me it's just an ongoing investigation and to me it's one of the things that makes life so dynamic and
We can practice being curious about, what's actually happening and how relating to it, how do you define intimacy and other such imports? concept for you and when I hear the word intimacy, I think of romantic intimacy. I think it's known for but for me it's about. completely allowing ourselves to be where you are and spontaneous? And it's a practice, and into me when I've enough. When I met this one teacher I studied with in Japan, you know one thing I felt so intimate with him. He had didn't speak, Japanese,
and I was living with him in this kind of remote temple and not in the outskirts of Hiroshima, and we never spoke the same language and yet I felt lately intimate with him, because we are completely in the experience together We spent weeks and weeks together and I would go with him, no matter where he went when just follow him around. Why radio this further, training just like learn more deeply about Zen, and so he was this incredible teacher, and so I was just following him so you wake up really early in the morning and then we would sweep all the Temple grounds and then we would the five o clock. We would be sitting meditation and then, when you do a champion, Pang and then wait at breakfast and then the next thing and so on
as we go out for a boy scouts. He was a boy scout leader, as I surmised later on. In some knows, rebuilding forts and things like that and other days we would be a guy intending to someone who is very sick and us sitting with them, or are we doing a funeral or all kinds of different thing? Third, as you know, visiting another temple or. and to me what I learned from him was that he was completely himself everywhere and felt so available, no matter where it wants and whether he was doing, simply doing the dishes are cooking eggs or building for its or settings Gunnar sweeping or whatever it was. He was completely there and spontaneous and available an interested
And said to me many ways that, in our view, was a beautiful image from air out of white intimate life can look like fell like yours, intimate Lebanon, we would go further long walks into it with that in there just wherever he was, he was completely there. You use the word and it's a word that I don't think a lot of people would put would pair with intimacy use. The word spontaneity spontaneous? As I understand it, that's a pretty important word in the Zen tradition. Can you hold forth from it s spontaneous mute. Spontaneity is hard work to sack. The third is It's just the willingness to be like what's near. What's next, what's now, what's now what's now, and so it's a trap, The idea is that were
living in the life of just our brain and as knowing how to be completely wide and our experience so that were connected to the vast expanse of life. So I'm just looking at you and just kind of what is he can ass next and how my doing and how do I sound or whatever you know, which actually not thinking, but I could think But to realise our- and this really strange wild room right now with where her like a fish ball and where maybe they're doing experiments. They and then fixed term and went on they are doing and who is that person? Actually that's forward are in turn whose recording us airport But it's I'm looking at us through a glass wall where, in a studio with like padded, was to make it the sound good, and we got all these weird microphone set up yet strange, looking room, I'm so used to it.
Yes, but just like kind of wide now and said to me, the spontaneous thing is also dislike. Where you are, then you like well check everything up, while in suddenly it's a different world. And then what I do and how I am feel totally different, I I remember during the course of the and I've invoke this allowed and probably will continue to the nine month. It's called foundations. That's the truth, I mean you do in order to learn. To be a volunteer and a hospice and in the courts the foundations training you talk about spent twenty Lion actually quite important for me as a morning, television anchor I need to be there at awake as quick situations and have equip ready or and the lighter situation, or in a more hat and a heavier situation, be aware,
I'm going to live interview. Somebody saying something I need to me be able to get them to, verify that if it hasn't been clear out keeping the audience in mind same with a pot gases, really about. I often don't planet. I haven't no notes in front of me right now. Sometimes I do but says I Are you so well? I don't have notes in front of me right now, so really trying to be maintained So the opposite of that- and this is something I have been guilty of and continue to be guilty of a lot it being so stuck in my I had planning my next thing, you're thinking about something, totally unrelated or thinking about, while my pants or type I can't believe AIDS and which mexican food ass night or whatever. It is someone that's gonna, cut but like how stuck in that? Are you really and how quickly can you make yourself available again, spontaneity is actually really important it's not just like how good are you at improv, comedy on Friday night? It's it's real you like, how good are you at life and
maybe it's actually related to life itself has just thank you. I have about, we both have a love of cats and, just like the cats are Harry spontaneous, like they dislike kind of are always actually in the present. I feel like my cat, has the Maoists: Afore I thought some real preparing planning drinks, the toilet announcement areas that cannot be met. Toby here is not smart and anyway. Here, yes, I take your point general he's. It is a special case. Especial care has, I think, Gaga thinks he's Later she's a physician, so she actually phagocytes- you may be right there he's not getting enough oxygen. That's definitely passed. Last Monday, right now to spontaneous there.
yeah. It's how it's, how you you were talking about cats, look at them. They are, generally speaking, quite spontaneous they're, not doing a lot of like ruining the past. But I think They even like saying MIKE, I lost my thought. Is that a kind of spontaneous to me, like, I don't feel ashamed Abed are like out. I lost my train of thought there. so just being willing to actually share what happening with yourself? First, at least to know, our like, I have no idea what, unless they next now, I have no idea where I'm going and yet totally willing, to show up in it with you in this case and Fort and Ford. it's it's massively important in a hospice context and frame. Yet. I was so unaware in training.
With you to show up at the bedside of total strangers who are dying and their family members are sometimes in the room to see your interacting with them to how this idea spontaneity and how you are going to be confronted with your own stuff in such a big white. My in my case, like my need to be liked him always doing like the special dance to be liked. Or whatever it is, comes up. Writing your face in these moments. and so the spontaneity as a skill which are again of his party, intimacy as a scale that you can build, which again I'm gonna say. This is not just some You should do because ITALY better for the world is something you should do, because your life will improve back to my invocation of the pleasure centred always this is really important. Yes or no and I
think that you know it's like our secret mission of the foundation's. A good tablet of care training is to get people to be with sick people and dying people so that actually they can face with what they're afraid of in relationship. so that they can be spontaneous and intimate with. The people in their neighborhood, so that big and actually realise, like all the things I was afraid about, maybe are completely controlling me. and my normal interactions in the elevator, Even then, the Dalai are the grocery store or, like my dad, by the two made up, you know. It's like all of these places in our life work. Slayer life happens the other day there is a woman came to me with us and
who is talking about missing her her mother, who had just died, and she was saying it was. It- was the silly text messages that mom would sand, and it was the way that her mother, what she miss most was. Actually when she would go over and spend time with their mother. It was the annoying way that she would take a really long time to decide what to order on the menu she said. I just wish that I could have that time back, because I miss her having almost a struggle has actually she just enjoyed so many things in the menu she couldn't decide. And for all those years I was just irritated and I miss it. And this is so interesting to think about how the things that were irritated by or that we
there's so much energy into not being where people are often the things that actually are places where we can actually get to know some one of the things you doing this train it is found. Asians training had a very positive effect on my marriage. My wife and I did it together, and you know I think for me, I have a lot of social awkwardness, or at least I feel it. I don't know if that's the way comes across, and I think, was showing up points in would bring that into the into the marriage is still do, is not it's not like. We took this course into everything. Was you know it's like we're living in Brigadoon all the time, but it helped- and One of the exercise is, you: do, is truly awful called a dyad and put the emphasis on die because I often wanted to die while doing this, but it is
so really regulatory as well, which is you have to people usually to people said across from each other, quite close your in chairs, meteor knees or almost touching, and you who are not supposed to break. I contact, and this is like incredibly, challenges- is due in pretty good were, I think, actually they create. It got me on my game. I don't wanna ass. My friend SAM Harris, jokes about this car I contact thing in that. He would, when he first arguing meditation. He really help people's gaze as an old anyway, while let him tell his why he does that buddy we talk about how the casual you and meet somebody was also in that game and that it felt like burying their playing war of the war locks and Oh yeah can get pretty intends you could take it too far whatever, but how people's gaze is quite important at
traditionally, wasn't that great at instil? I'm not! You know, I try not to be maniacal about it anyway. Why? How do you do this? What's the importance of of this exercise. Very often when people are say that their thinking about something they look away So like they're sitting there with you in there and you ask them, question and then they look off usually off to the left, top left or top right or bottom left or bottom right from where you are, and I've always found that so fascinating like what is that about, and when I asked a lot of people. That's a power is that's usually that they feel exposed. As they don't know what they're gonna say next and serves the vulnerability, I've. Actually, I have no idea what I'm going to next
we have to look away to protect those actually some kind of archaic defence mechanism to, not be exposed or not be intimate actually like well end like we're bird, just talking like I have no idea on the same next time. Let me think out loud with you. And what I have learned from the bedside and being what I call awake at the bedside is really learning how name of another book you wrote, Slash edited here, very good book. But to me it's about really learning how to show up with our fear, and just to learn how to feel whatever were feeling without becoming what mafia and it's easy to do that by yourself. Aren't you
meditation about Adam, nothing about being with my death or I'm thing about being with my fear and working with those feelings, that's a totally different challenge and to do that in relationship to actually practice. Well, and there is a reason why the bed I and all his teachings, you never said, go off by yourself forever and that he was always. I remember that three aspects of- and I talk about them in the book about you- awaken awakeness receptivity, community. So how do you like really allow community and receptivity and and so we do, these dyad experience is to actually help each other remember action
kind of going back to what you are saying earlier, that actually it feels good it's difficult and might be women also not like this. Time, but there's something about while just sitting with someone, not Doing anything, but just being together, oh I was freaking out they'll be looking at somebody who is also a kind of freaking out their faces like breaking out an involuntary ticks, You know it's really a strange thing that you never let me do. It would Bianca you net. You didn't want us to sit next to each other. Do these exercises together, but I did find I murmured was really young, its time and an eye, who had somehow do I would curl up of him in his crib and stare PNC. How long is there and got this could go? He was really good at it. I don't know if I even tried it with him recently I did find it in my conversations with Bianca. I was
we were more looking at each other. She actually doesn't have real, Brill by was the one with a more blocked. the intimacy level than her so up, but I did find that that was creating greater connection as much as I actively hated the exercise while doing and over time I relax into it. It's the first couple times you do it it's it's tough stay tuned. Moreover, Conversation is on the way after this better help offers licensed professional councillors specialised in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief connected. The professional councillor in a safe private, online environment, it's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a councillor. You'll love. We ve talked about
education a little bit. Let me raise it in this context? One of the things I thought I heard you say as we ve gone here- is that one of the steps toward her having greater intimacy in your life? In other words, greater connection with other human beings, which are we are wired need, is to be ok with yourself, and so in that context, is meditation really important? Can we do what you're talking about without meditation resigned? Frazier really helpful. I dont know if you can do without adaptation. Yeah, I've not totally clear but from meditation as this amazing way, really learn how to be in your expert.
Hence I dont know another way that has taught me how to stay and widen out into my experience and soften into even what I thought I couldn't bear and to me that's one of the key parts of meditation practices actually learning how to bear what I think camp there so like, for example- and I talk a lot about this in the book about you- know these moments of like incredible sadness and sorrow that I ran from for a long time and that I needed to turn towards it had to turn the light towards where it isn't. As my friend Marie would say in her one of her poems worry,
Turning the light to wear it isn't is like to me whereby meditation practice is in some ways it like that part of it. So it's about allowing whatever's arising so great sadness, great fear and learning how to feel it and returning to the bran its Radical, I feel like in many ways I was talking with the student, the other, about it feels like a superpower training and actually learn how to feel whatever your fly and come back to this, Agnes in your belly. I'm just blow your valuable to me as well, the most powerful ways to learn confidence,
but you can be with whatever is arising and just come back. You talk about to adjust below your belly button. That is called the horror as ever it. If I recall from training that I don't think that's invoked in a lot of meditation techniques that are my listen may have heard before. So he holds forth on that a little bit yeah. So the horror is a place of focus and then meditation, and so, It's a place of that very rooted in our body and Sir Thomas thought to be the centre of the body and what I experiences that It allows myself LAO was my experience of meditation to be fully embodied. So I feel like I'm, really really deep in my own body
Where are we actually happened to have this vessel for a time and allows me to have the experience of the breath in the body deepen? a body and there's something very different. That happens. I was encourage. People and physicians are different folks that I have the honour to teach them in a just if you ve never done before it does put your hands there, just see what happens to the cod you have your mind when you focus your attention to that place, will recall your horror two inches blow. Your belly button see what happens says. I'm gonna were amazing thing and for many years. I thought I was really good at meditation actually and I fell, I got,
as I had sat many long or trades, and I was kind of pretty full of it for a while. This is an example of healthy, embarrassing, Mpas yeah. I thought I was like I was a really helpful person and really there to help other people, and it was actually through. Stymied contemplative care thy start to realise that what a jerk I was and what I I who had walked down the hall of the hospital where I was in Turkey, feel like wow, you know how secretly lucky I felt. Thus, people were that I was coming down the hall, Like it was almost like a nightmare, and yet held the embarrassment of decide realising our like. I was trying to be like rain bright- are you now hello kitty with you know, riding on top of my little pony
Into the rooms and bringing all this good stuff and to me it's about, I was not in my heart I would like all these ideas about my practice, but my meditation practice I realize I got in. I was after like Ten years of long retreats than I was. not even in relationship to where I was and as being a tolerable Check of Morocco is indeed not even realizing that, and it was and tell you now go And my first room when I realized what what was really I was
I was but using it with this like shiny exterior as if I wasn't- and you know, as the guy into this room- and I couldn't see the woman Am I hear from by May hello sexy, but they said this is Are you tell the books actually of images set this up you I spent many years training as a then priests, and then you cited really is a consequence of your grandmother's Mimis death, which again you talk with you, tell the story in the book meat. Mimi and you care for her, you decided quite bravely ought to cave to care for her and her final days, you two very close relationship with her and she encouraged you and showed. Oh your boyfriend at the time now husband two's to really formalised this work of what you call contemplative care, and so you started working in hospitals
and now you're about to tell the story of the first room you or one of the first rooms you offered on ok, so. Yes, I walk in and their am rainbow bright and it's the healthy embarrassment. And I hear from by May hello sexy and I felt mortified, couldn't believe like. She could not be talking to me and turn around and she's like come over years, his eye patting the bad she's like come closer Bobby and House, like, oh, my god. It's almost like that like the whole veneer of the whole situation. Had cracked.
And I do remember like that pit in my chest, like a camp but leave this is happening. Who was she? She was a patient hospital and I sat down eventually end she likes. Oh, you know the earth's sexy and handsome, and this man I just address, go if I could have my head in my hands and cried. I probably would have. But somehow I was able just to stay with her and then I just something shifted. something shifted and me were- and I felt like actually came back to my breath in my heart, the training, kicked him yeah and I'm Branch and put my hand there, S looked at her and she is now saying so flirting her
we're gonna go there and she's like ab, Fatima and so we she started. I said tell me about the first time you flirted. She started telling me the story about growing up from predatory, go and being at the beach and feeling sexy in her, but me, and how are these guys were really into her and how great that was. It. Haven't and ass. She was telling a story she told him alive and how important that was for her, and she said there was always a thorough about this in the boat, but she would talk about, like Bush, a beautiful like the Virgin Mary, that she was like a Dort and how important that was for her and how that actual her sexuality was connected to her spirituality and it was while she was tat.
saying, as I realise and looked at her and that her body stop brass below her hips And that's the reason she was in the hospital was that she had both legs amputated dear to diabetes, and I remember feeling that humility and may be moving from sham to help the embarrassment to does realise like wow, when I was so caught up in a rainbow brightness which looks good at it, even notice who this one manoeuvres and what she clearly is experiencing and what our experts you know. I have two things I wanted to say, based on a store. One is he's really helpful for people to hear that
You can do a significant amount of meditation and still be an idiot, and- and I mean I visited every day in my own life by homer other people. Here myself and this is not a panacea right there. Many ways that, while Mr Ten percent and stuck with math jokes thrust my life, but though that that's that really gets at what I was trying to get at that time on on. I think it's a really useful thing hear a especially for a guy work the other thing is this idea of soft belly. So, don't meditating the same style that you do. I wrote the horrors not be part Ideally formal practice, but you talked in in the foundations course about having a soft belly I notice that I come back to that a lot especially five minute difficult conversation say it gets me, go. founded in the situation in a way that takes me out of
racing mind and puts me right there. So I just want to make those two comments. Before I move on to a question. I've been meaning to ask you forgetting, which is you mentioned her since posted beginning I meant mentioned, that you had some time recently where you were reading the audio version of your book. Wholehearted and There are a few moments where you were thinking my. I can't believe. I admitted that what was the most shocking thing to you. Upon re reading or reading aloud your book that you admitted cause. You do talk about very personal thing,. Yes, I think that, for me, it was a few things
and one was talking about the difficulties and that I grew up with you no experiencing and witnessing in a various levels of abuse, sexual abuse and physical abuse and verbal abuse, and I did MR as a young person and somehow just saying that is witness the right word, some of it I witnessed and some of it I expands and both have There are some by just that sentence and sang out loud. Something that I had never said before was radically powerful to me. And there was something about it, and I remember my friend material
who is the sound guy, must sound engineer. The producer of the audio book was also looking through the window, wherefore it as and and with a tyranny, as I just said, There is something about sometimes just saying what happened without even needing to get into the detail of that is so poignant and. And so powerful and I feel that many of us, live in shame around things that we have experience and especially in particular men. I think that in a friend of mine is on the board of our organization, called one in six about men who have experienced sexual violence and
one in six men have experience that, and so there's this and their summit. Shame around it and to me just saying it was really important and healing and the beginning of something new. And and endeavour. Never you know you know I've given talks about. I ve done other work around at a clearly But there is some way about being written in a book. That's out in the world that felt like an undoing spell.
And I felt like that somehow, like I think Kafka talks about like that, like the acts that breaks the frozen ocean- and I felt like that- and I am so glad- I know that you talk about in the book- is that you have you had a troll. Tell me more. for eighteen months, I had a troll hands or someone who is, you know a true, but for those who do not trawlers it, sir, Someone who anonymously uses the internet to abuse people basically said this person for eighteen minds was riding. to me initially and then too many
people that I now and then also masking themselves as very people who are important to me in different ways. using their names and basically sending HANS of Very anti semitic, homophobic and. four things in a really. We had three buckets of hate, which were Pina Anti Semitism homophobia and that I'm not a real, send teacher and and they went on for a really long time- and I made police reports But really during the whole time and one the most challenging power it's about it was. I felt like why, like my practice, my meditation practice felt a challenge and the place that I felt like I've gotten
If there is ever getting tired of it was just showed me. I was in another idea of my practice about how I was doing and I really believe that there's no arrival, but I really, keep seeing these different places, these little stations that I find my part of my mind, parking and. Because there are so many times that were so difficult where you know, sometimes this person would be me now sending these hurry like messages. Caso had opened the messages because they were like from you they are from Chotto are like up from all these people there I know and relate to and would get emails from from and indeed open it and be like this horrific thing and.
And then there were so many times her, just just so wearing and so exhausting it felt like the onslaught of the hatred, just fell so depleting, and it was really talk about soft belly practice. I just felt like that was the time where I really had to really dig into getting real about my practice about really what does it mean to be to actually practice compassion? What is it really mean when someone hates you and you now and working with my teacher, which I'm so so grateful for and die
shit. Your teacher Diane Friedman so she's, this amazing woman and she said Dahmer successor of the writer Peter Matheson, amazing woman and her he wrote the snow leopard yeah ends. really working with her very closely about it. How do I work with this? You know receiving this hatred and had I not lead to overcome me and what I talked about like getting into it like a low I needed to get into a low gear. You know nothing about a shift car and I like a And learning how just like really take at moment by moment and relays. curious about that cause many times, I felt like an infection, and that was coming
then how do I really work without infection and, in other words, their goal was to create havoc and hatred. So to me, it really was Probably one of the most strangely important times of my practice, were really getting clear about what compassion ass and if the compassion doesn't include for this person, who I didn't know at the time who was then I wasn't, in my view actually practising. It was limb. It was limited compassion. Here I was some idea that a person we should say has been caught and you're not being cold. As we speak, yes said the person, so it yes, I'd still, you know. Part of the practice do is responsibility and accountability for myself and other people
I believe in and so yes said, the person was arrested and taken out of their home and handcuffs and was charged with the criminal charge. And so that did happen. and and you're not saying your compassion, for this person doesn't indicate that there should be no accountability exhort you could do both. At the same time, exactly I felt really important, but to hate this person, to me is not where I want to go, you really interested in you. You talk about buncher things that would be sensitive for anybody to talk about experience sexual be experiencing sexual abuse, having a troll, experiencing venomous anti Semitism is child. Were you grew up for a while? You were living in a place where there is a lot of anti Semitism, and then you I should go one level deeper, which is to talk about how you,
you, you have a victim mentality, and at that has shown in difficult ways in your into personal intimate relationships. Now, yes to me That was the ongoing power of the practice to me is to really look myself really honestly and to look at that, my I feel like actually in some ways it's my own and part of its inherited this kind of victim. Mentality where I would isolate myself, because I felt like I would never be really undressed are. You now is being picked up. But actually, as a young, occurred on the young jewish get. That was the case, so it's also
to me. The moving from came the feelings of shame right to feel like there's something wrong with me, as opposed to like wow. I can sometimes use this victim identity as a way to separate mice and actually not practice compassion, and it was a really interesting and important. And it keeps showing up this turn of seeing Been willing to, like you, don't turn the light to wear. It doesn't to like ok And by using this experience of the troll to say, like you see, you know, I'm being victimized again and but actually there is something about real. a feeling learning about compassion in myself
the same time as using the police and amazing relationship with the system disk attorney and who were They taught me a lot about compassion and so incredible person, and so I think it was both feeling, but I was experiencing from the troll and modest experiencing towards the troll As well as engaging what is correct, what I deemed as correct, which rose pursuing justice criminal justice- and I think it was that experience that actually shifted- that whole victim stance in my life, which I didn't actually realise and
at this moment, and what does that mean to you? Have that shifted that there is actually that I'm not helpless. And that its feels like an aspect of my personality that comes out and that part has felt helpless and was in many moments in fact, helpless and in fact no one would at times believe that person or I didn't have the resources to combat the situation or deal with it in a different way, and I think this experience was so important where this toys that I did every sources and it was not the only
and I feel like it's also because it's my own- thing is my own understanding of what it means to kind of grow up in a wonderful teacher friend, Norman Fisher talks about you know it's about learning, how to grow up and learning to take care of that little guy and we all have some kind of little person with us who carries and very old story. We all have one.
And the tenderness and learning to feel love for that aspect. So, as part of our whole as part of our, you cannot going back to those doctors that integrative we have to include him and it has to include the troll and asked included everybody. I mean to me: that's the shift that is possible and to experience that even like right now here with you, it just so tender and so important, and to me that's actually what also but intimacy is like in some ways like you're doing your job, but also like we care for each other and been learning to ask questions. That also are not. You know easy to ask.
and they re willing to answer them to me as also it's gonna like I. In the eye when I was in high school, I was walking down the street knows in college. I saw unnoticed play with my friend Liz, and she just turned to me and said you know who gets to know all of your sadness and I member fee. I would like another one of these moments where I felt like last that kind of wise question in college. She's, my friends were like who's paying for the character. We have very different french sees an amazing woman yeah? remember, feeling lately dumbstruck by that moment. and so appreciative
It was like the beginning of me doing a lot of work and actually going deeper, both in my own meditation practice as well as going to psychotherapy like I felt like. Why would like. I don't have the skills to even know how to answer that question with the dignity of it, like the question was like it such to me, if the bravery of asking real questions is an act, intimacy and love and an came clearly from a very loving place, shows really curious Tipp to bring this full circle vague, just two. To go back to that, we are saying that we all,
this little version of ourselves that's got these stories. You ve used the term used the term during the foundations course of we have this black bag. They were carrying with us in all of this pretty dark stuff is in there, whether we know it or not, and if you don't know it. it's gonna just shut its bleeding all over the place in injury or behaviour and showing up. All the time and so for you victim and- Howdy was in your black bag and it sounds like bees victimized as a grown up who, The resources to stop the victimization shifted that and probably will have. Knock on benefits for your marriage, How you are with your friends for how you are in your work, with this centre, the Centre Newark, send centre for contemplative care and all of the endeavours therein. That's a big deal
I mean it did going to goes right out your core thesis of intimacy and that you can't really be meant if you're not look into the black back. If you look at you and me is like and you never arrive, that's own. The things my teacher always has night said no arrival, so you can't crabby like alright. Well, that's that box is checked no cuz. I could just creates like a bigger bag right. Cuz then you're just basically putting it back in the bag, but to me either That's why I love the word. Whole hearted knew where the book comes from, but it's like comes Dogan from an old, then guy who just felling that's the life of like
allow the ten thousand things to flow, and so you're, not he didn't say well. The way to practice is to control everything and to know everything, but he was allowing you know. Ten thousand is like the Zen thing for a lot or infinite just to allow things to flow to be like be in life or going to goes back to the idea and experience of sponge Eddie amend messy, and I insist it so to me the possibility is incredible liveliness in the face of horror and joy, I think I heard my teacher Joseph Goldstein Region as quizzing him about enlightenment, saying that that there's that there's no when to it of lightening up. So you just if you, if you're, not gripping so our near letting all of the. U you made reference to the ten thousand things. That's a reference to the fact that there are ten thousand joys intent
thousand sorrows that happen in any given life. Cameroon said it but you're, letting them all come and go with some ease lightness. Well, that's that's one waited define enlightenment. Let's is closed. By being little crass, which is that I always like to give people the opportunity at the end of the package to plug everything so this, isn't you trying to be soft emotional, this is me pushing you to be self without the plug zone. Took Egypt plug the book plug before it plug where you are, and social media plugged in your extends over center for care. Just give us everything. So the new book has caused wholehearted. Had never liked to him ass. You do for you,
the new book is called a whole hearted, slow down, help out and wake up and its available now and as well as the first book I added, which it's called awakened. The bedside contemplative teaching some pale Devon end of life care, which is a book of wonderful writings by many doctors, Embitters teachers about how to be intimate, the bedside and I'm on such a media from Twitter to Instagram and Facebook add cushion Paleo wasn New York City for me. I will then centre for contemplative care. What I could find, no with my husband and it's the addresses and care dot, Org
can we actually have our own podcast witches, Zen care, podcast and delighted to be here great job. Thank you. Thank you, as I said, really candid and brave stuff from cushion big. Thank you to him for common on the show was: do some voicemail sees number one idea and I am a big fan of your show and opposition. I fell and listen to the recent, so by you'll grow, found a very interesting. My question is about when he describes for people at her her very busy
and can't leave their families for weeks at a time when retreats and have tremendous, more professional responsibility that in their own daily life, he said they can watch the light and listen to the sound want be riding in passing away, feel their feet on the ground and it strikes me. This could be a very, almost ironically distracted, this way of going through life, if your partly paying attention to every up up up up, as he says, and I'm not sure how to reconcile that type of existence with adequate living in the active. Did he modern world. So I'd love to hear you up again is such a good question and I'm really glad that we reached out to somebody smarter than me to help me internet question, because
as I was reading at this, this am Samuel or one of our producers sends me the questions in advance and I was reading. He sent me a transcript of that question of reading it, and I was thinking I know what this person is talking about, but I can't really articular Oh we reached out to re. Housman is their head of coaching on the ten percent happier app and is she is an extremely experienced meditate her and also really funny by the way was having drinks with her recently. I wasn't renewed, but were at a social event for temperature happier folks in he was making my wife and I laugh hysterically, and you have digressing here but re waiting with some some extremely useful advice for this collar. In a really has to do with not overdoing it. Yes, it is the gang. Your point is it taken very well by me and I think, by the pretty much anybody's interest in meditation, we should use our mindfulness as much as possible.
and you really can take it all lion. As your walking around you can feel your feet hitting the floor. You can feel your muscles moving. You can notice, what you're, seeing and hearing in all that stuff, but there's it you can go to hard at this, which would create this, as the collar said, almost ironically, distracted way of going through life. So here's a quote from re quote wheat. We can use a light touch with our attention when we place it. on our century experience as we go through our daily life, the quality of attention were aiming for. Here is a bit like the quality of feeling we may have. If we were to hold something delicate in our bringing a light awareness to various aspects of our century experience can help drop the mind out of its tendencies to proliferate in the realm of thought and support us in relating to or life experiences, in a more embodied here and now way
and she goes on to say, is possible to have a light awareness of, for example, the body sitting in a chair. While so being aware of the fact that we may be in dialogue with someone continuing to quote here and I'm almost done just moved. I've got several pages here. I was going to move to the second page. We are trying to pay attention to everything she says, that, would just develop a quality of hyper vigilance in the mind and ultimately exhaust the mind in the body and the she actually followed up with one last little thing here, which is awaited kind of explore this. For yourself You can explore this on your own, I get a feel for the type of war and as you, I have on your sensory experience by touching your thumb d or forefinger lightly rubbing them together? Can you do that and feel it and be aware,
but you are seeing as you look around your environment. Thank you re. Let's do voicemail number to carry about everything. In fact that has a clear way you do. I like one day that included mine mine for many, a mocking meriting him or if that is your time, I'm currently carrying two. still the one mind told me, listen to my daddy and I want my phone to my day and I didn't know if that would reduce my sixty minute time or if you would do that on top
a few minutes. I know right now. I remained perfectly minute. I too find it you can then I think he's a much higher level car from another. You know our driving Tybee gonna win it meditation type of person. I love it were kindred spirits, so this is clearly summit. What's the do get up to sixty minutes a day of meditation? I remember the I'm I'm so I'm so glad this questions coming in now become an interesting stage in my own practice. Visa v, these sort of time go. I remember when I was when I first decided I wanted to do the hundred and twenty minutes two hours a day, and I asked Joseph Goldstein Meditation teacher the exact same question. You just ask me, which is well if I, if I eat my fleer from what specifically actually what I asked him, what does by walking commute back and forth to the office count because I'm
I can use that to be super mindful, and he said no, it doesn't count you should be mindful anyway, but it doesn't count as formal seated practice time so there's no hard and fast rule here. I didn't know you know Iris, that's gonna come in an audit on our your accounting for your meditation time. So you you should do whatever you feel is right for you, but for what it's worth with Joseph said was that incorporating daily life activities into your formal meditation time in his you didn't quite count. He was by the way his tongue was slightly in when he was saying this to me, but I kind of agree with them. You know we as meditated. I think it's bet it's great to aspire to be mindful as possible all the time. So
That's that's a little in a little bit of a different category. Then formal seated meditation time, but I will say that you know I did two hours a day for years and then I had as I've discussed many many times on the show. This three sixty review, where I got a lotta, tough feedback about how I was disengaged and stressed and impatient with people, and I I really started to realize that trying to fit into hours with my mix of responsibilities essentially to jobs one here, it ABC News, the other at ten percent, happier the app and then of also a dead in a puzzle then a friend and all that stuff, I just it wasn't reasonable from where I am in my life right now. I did it for three years and I think I got out of it, but then I cut down to an hour, and I noticed that that was just much more manageable.
And then I was recently having a conversation with the Ryan Levinson, who was on the show a couple weeks ago, and humour of this was part of what we were quartered over was part of our discussion afterwards. But I told you that I shall aim to do sixty minutes every day and she said something like you know what I think you should acknowledge drop your at the point now are you can drop the counting of them it send instead just try to meditate as much as you want, and I dont know how I feel about that. I'm basically, I stopped counting every single minute. My do now do serve a rough count of where I met by the end of the day and to roughly be at around an hour, but so this this question comes in at a very interesting time. For me, as I am, I think, there's an interesting
Alice in it caught. It depends on your personality and where you are you're practice, how much meditation time are you going to aspire to do, and is it really working for you? In other words, what is it? What are the results in your practice, but also where the ramifications in your life is it? Is it messing things up in your life is, you unhappy and more stressed in some way. I dont have a silver bullet, simple answer about how you set this, I think, is something you have to play with individually and that's what I've been doing in my own practice with the help of some really smart people. So I would say good on you for Amy, for sixty minutes, give yourself a break in and and try to work with this creatively and also good on you for eating mindfully. In living your life as my fleas possible that you're an example for the rest of us, thanks
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