Four may be seen as the ten percent happier vodka in her a guys, noticed this, but I'm going to make sure that I bring it to your attention. We have a new look. You may have noticed we have a new icon up in the podcast or wherever you get your podcast we're. Looking a different now nothing to be concerned about nothing else is going to change just a bit of a facelift. Ok, so to I guess this week, Christine poor ass is a professor at Georgetown University at the business school there, the Mcdonough School of business, she's written a book called mastery, civility a manifesto for the workplace and she also co authored a book called the cost of bad behavior. So she, as you, can tell she's an expert incivility, which is a huge issue in culture. Now, and she approaches it in the way that, in a way that I really like will, first of all with with scientific rigour, but also through the

where's your centres of the brain that she points out that civility really important. If you care about your own performance in the performance of your workplace, it's important, employee engagement, overall happiness, she's got a not a strategies to deal with people who are not civil. How How do you handle that? How do you put your own civility and how can meditation help in all of this, loved this interview centre. The bulls for in terms of what's interesting to me, so here we go Christine Porth Great meet you thanks for having me pleasure. I've been felt I've. I've invoked your name on the show before and I have been following your work for, while so really excited to be sitting across from you. I always start by asking people if

they meditate and if so, how do they come to it do Mediterranean and, if so, why? I do because it so helpful, and it has been a calming influence, I would say, was a late starter. My mom actually teaches meditation and mindfulness real classes yeah, whereas in South Carolina she has for about the last decade plus and really turned me onto it, particularly as I was going through. I would say some rough times and struggles as a practice that way be helpful and help pull me out of IRAN. Owen I just more generally be healthy and a mental way, and now I have heard it be termed, is like why, wouldn't you be doing something like sir size for your brain and I'm so bought in an exercise in an buttocks? It's like how could I possibly neglect this for longer and I teach a lot of it as far as the research, the positive effects on people, and so do not be doing it. I'm really not very smart. Did you help you when you were in a rut? Absolutely, I would say

it's a night and day, but an evolution over time in I'd, say it's extremely calming effect on me personally, outs probably more Taipei and driven and so forth, and I think that this is a way to kind of calm yourself down and also process thanks, much better in and be much more peaceful. I think you no kind of letting go of some of the control and surrendering you know like Michael singers work, it has been helpful. I've read, he wrote a book called until then saw I haven't, read it yeah. I highly suggest it. So he's really all about you know you gotta, let go of things and what nature take its course. You know you can't control and he started with meditation and deeply into it and started me. Meditation centre and so forth, and really change the complexion of his life as well as those around him did. You run have anything to do with the incivility

yes. I mean, I would say I been in rights professionally and personally he no across the board. As you know, it academia, you gotta tenure situation, words up her out, and so it's tough you know slog if you will ever Armenia, you either get tenure or you're out. Yes of that particular university. You start over somewhere else. So, in the likelihood is not high enough I and it fewer and fewer people get it at their first place, so that was one of the challenges is that you know kind of? How do I control that at a place where I really want it to work and move forward, and then I would say personally on the relationship front, something doesn't work out, it's a disappointment. How do you move you know from things that you maybe you want it, but you can have to let go of and

forward and as healthy, always possible and and focusing on your future verses. I think getting caught up in the past or worrying about the future bill is Ben. I think the most helpful thing kind of staying were present and appreciating each moment for a moment or each day through day and kind to taking that on your Georgetown ion did, did the tenure situation work out of date of ok it day and relations will thank you, but I started my career universe if Southern California, out at USC, so I moved without getting turned down officially But you know it was a situation where I was kind of starting over in many ways you know and as part of its stem from the belief of the type of work I wanted to do. You know to write books like you do in to do work more generally for public consumption verses solely for her.

Condemning journals and things like that, so we kind of got your origin story on meditation yum. I wanna hear your origin story on civility why? Why had what an interesting area to pick enters of academic research? Why that? Well, mainly because of my own toxic workplace experience so when I darted out. I had in turned the largest sports management marketing firm in the world when I was in college with their headquarters had a great experience learned a tonne followed my boss, down to a subsidiary of theirs down of Florida to launch the Sports Academy was a new arm of an existing academy and what I failed to realize was: it was a really toxic workplace environment and I was just very naive. I really. Know how to handle it. Honestly, I was so surprised that they Allow this to go on. You know it's the best people last in a defective people in your they were performing as well as they were taking out on customers. It was literally contagious

and yet no one was changing the environment and I think it may have been in part because of my economics undergrad degree I just focused on. I want to go back to school and study like what the consequences, as it's objectively as possible for how we should create better environments where people they in the workplace and so that real they seeing the toilet took on people not only in the workplace but how it colored their personal lives as well as what led me to thank you. People spend so much time at work, can't we and should we do better than this, and that ties to the fact that my dad had actually suffered a heart attack scare. You know, but few years price. Here too that and at the time he was really healthy, athletic vivacious guy,

and so it was so shocking, like you're walking into that hospital room and seeing electrode strapped his beard chest was, you know just really memorable in here, hard and at the time he hadn't shared along the stories, but I definitely knew it was tied to workplace toxic bosses over the course of a decade, or so but at the time I really believed he was just out. Why are you know he was an unlucky soul? Distant happened to many people, but my own workplace experience and seeing how many people this may affect led me to really pursue it as a career to say you know we can and should do better, and so, let's put some financial figures or let's put some consequences behind. What's the toll that rudeness and incivility, these bad relationships, costs, people and organisations and more recently, ordered the benefits of creating more civil war Does it have environments kind of situations where people thrive

the prior question: what did you learn? What's the cost of incivility its enormous So, on the personal front, you know people dont perform merely as well Cognitive Lee that I was there to demands on their prevents our tax gap. It it hijacks outperformance literally people are not as attentive to information, oh, they will miss the five times more likely to miss information right in front of them on the computer screen. After just witnessing this enough us but or air traffic control, environmental, lots of other high stakes of military murmured? That could cost lives absolutely and that in fact, there's plenty of stories that have been shared since then. He always working with Steve this position, and he mentioned to me that they had a fast It has hospital. There was often rude, especially the nurses and junior staff members, but Steve said that there was one particular time where this doktor had shouted at a medical team and right afterwards the medical team gave them

Doses, your medication to the patient- and she said you know the information was right there on the chart, but somehow the entire team had just missed it and simple mistake with patient died and what scary, as I've heard, a lot of stories. Like that about these mistakes and researchers and Israel have actually documented that medical teams exposed to reduce perform worse, not only in all their diagnostics, but in all the procedures they do, and this is mainly as people stop sharing information as much and they stop seeking help from their teammates and beg you. You said for it I think I got excited and said something and maybe walked on what you are trying to say a little bit, and so I want to go back in and make sure we don't miss it. You can miss from you, your more likely to misinformation, Natalie You ve been the victim for lack of a better word of incivility, but even if you simply witness it yet so, even if you witness that your car

the functioning you're working memory operates about eighteen percent, slower youve, take longer to physically record your answers on the computer, let's say, and we have found that people EC, significantly more errors, and so this is obviously really important, not only in the medical field. But I see this affecting really all industries where I've thought or people are counting on using their mind in any way. And there are, I would imagine, knock on effects because there's the direct effect of what's happening in any given workplace and then there's the knock on effect of what happened to their customers or worse patients But then there is what happens when those workers go home and deal with their family yeah, and so you know, eighty percent of people actually lose time worrying about this. So that's a workplace cost, but I think also affects in other personal lives as well, and we do see that people admit that they take it out on those that they live with or friends with you know it's really hard because a close, both ways,

being so, it happens in the organization people take it homeward, and you know their nasty to there. Partner spouse on they may kick the dog kind of thing, but Also. We see that when it happens in the home or whether you're taking it on social media, for example, taking and even the words as what we found and people see or reed rude words they actually it affects them and hijacks their profound. As well, and so we can imagine nowadays that you're what people work and you mean whether in social media are other ways that its affecting them in the workplace as well. Other rise, the folks who were being uncivil because I've been that guy and not unlike the distant passed in the distant ass yet also in the not so distant past, and you I've said on the show before that

I would call the three sixty review URI serve compassionately done three sixty review where at which it for the uninitiated is where you hire firm and they come an interview, people you work for people who work for you and your peers, and in my case I detect people. My personal life like midnight, meditation teacher, my wife, my brother, so sixty people all our long interviews, and then I got a forty one page report and the results were horrifying. Humbling, and I realized I was behaving poorly and I didn't even No, it may I know some of it, but I really you didn't know. The extent of it and I can't imagine I'm alone, No, not at all. I mean one of my just learning I started this work. Thinking gosh there, some real jerks in the workplace, and we need to correct them and wherever landed is the vast authority of this stems from a lack of self awareness in all. We ask me a why rude only four percent say cause it's fun and they can get away with it. In the vast majority, I think lack information about? What are the

little things that I may be doing to set people off or the rub. People the wrong way eyes I think, especially nowadays where people are constantly on. You know what necessarily focused on the other person rather reacting to us, and so we may miss that information. But almost all people have blind spots, so touchy, IRC has done some great work on self awareness is a great book insight and a TED talk, and she has found that ninety five percent of people, but leave that they have self awareness. You know they were good sense of their strengths and weaknesses, but only ten to fifteen percent of people actually are are self aware, so eighty percent of people are falling themselves on any given day. Self aware, get three sixty review. Yet I've called it like an autopsy on a living person. It's it's horrified I again now all of a sudden, I'm pretty self. I would have told you I was up where MR meditated, while I was- and you know I was being jerk again and

and lots of ways that I again I had some visibility and the sound of it and no visibility into lots of it. So your view, haven't look at this debt incivility in the workplace, and maybe you in the culture generally of you look beyond the workplace is is getting worse. It definitely is getting worse. Sadly, over the last couple decades we see ever eyes and ears only in the workplace and other data, as well as my own would suggest in society. The vast majority of people are really worried about a lack of civility and society and the Good NEWS from my perspective is when I started this work nearly couple decades ago I don't think it was on the radar of managers and organizations at all they may have been thinking about. Shall harassment or that term YO trainings were starting on that. But civility and respect wasn't really something that was talked about are looked at and now it absolutely is. So I think some of the positives,

organizations are really bright spots for this, because now a letter and companies are paying attention to. How do we do better? You know how to create these more positive civil or kind cultures, because people do tend to thrive more. There was talk of a better The research I haven't really was the sound of it. I'm not going in any preordained order. I imagine organizations are getting better at this because they ve seen data from you and your colleagues. That suggests that, if you do this, as you said, your workers worth will thrive, which of course goes right to the bottom. So what do we know? What's that data? What is that data say? Yes, so at the earliest study that I worked on with Christine Pearson, it was one in which we surveyed business, school Omni, working in all different industries

and we asked under report one time where they felt like they were treated rudely disrespectfully or and sensitively. They wrote a few sentences about it and then answered how they responded and the results were eye opening, because you know over two thirds of people intentionally cutback work efforts. Eighty percent of people lost time worrying about the incident, often for very long periods afterwards and twelve percent actually left. The company result. This twenty five percent intentionally took it out on customers, and so you know it adds up quickly and so on. We publish these initial results. We not allow calls for more. Innovation, saying. How can you help but Cisco actually took just a few of those numbers and estimated conservatively? It was crossing them over twelve million dollar. She arrogant and a small regional hospital. They work with recently estimated that it's costing them over thirty million dollars a year.

Oh, that will motivate. You know some change now when we policy at the other thing that happened was academics were sceptical. They said no people reporting this, but does it really affect their performance? And we thought the obvious answer, yes they're, admitting this, but we actually showed in experiments that those that experience incivility do actually function much worse than those that don't experience, some people say? Okay, that makes sense. You know it's natural if you experience it that you might not perform as well and that's where we took it then two witnesses cuz most of my job experience was not on the receiving end is much is just being around it and it was consuming me daily, but what to do? How to spawned the whistle wrong with me. What how do people at this way, and so on, we found in studies on witnesses? Was it affected them too, and really just as much so and cognitive detrimental ways as those that experience

So how confident are you in the data now and are there still academic critics out there? So you don't have? No, no, I mean I'd continues to evolve, and so I think we continue to learn. How is it affecting people what other ways at hurting people, but I think it's pretty then saying I'm in their lot of other researchers that have shown different outcomes other That we learned is that people are far less creative when they witness incivility they are, they are much more likely to think in aggressive and dysfunctional ways, so we would, for example, one of the tasks we give them is a brainstorming, brick task where they have five minutes to come up with as many ideas for how to use a brick and witnesses will come up with things like sink a body in a river attack. Torture kills one. You know smash the experimenter space. Young people who have witnessed incivilities are more like love, oh yeah, yeah and the list goes on and on you

and so what we have seen is that it's really detrimental. The other thing that we ve learned is that we even just witnesses, are three times less likely to help anyone after seeing incivility, not just the person was route, but anyone, and so you can imagine if the stuff goes on in a culture you get people that are as good as collaborating and so on, the third just a lot and lots of consequences, not to mention the fact that the stress health consequences and so forth that affect individuals. So, oh here's what can be done about this and when I I asked their forums, dive into it from several different angles. What can organizations do What can individuals do in terms of dealing with lack of civility in their workplaces and what can individuals do? Who might be the source of leaded civility and probably

it may be, you listener, even even if you don't know it so, let's just start at an, I may have even left good questions out on trivial directly. If I have register with working an organization. Do you said you were working with, or does it one of the over this work? What are they doing? Yeah? Well, I'm seeing concentrating on four main areas. One is recruiting in selecting that's probably where you get your biggest return on investment like if I were to say, focus your attention. I would say you know, do not select more unsavoury people into mourning envy your organization, because it you know, sadly, what we ve learned as the stuff is like a bug or a virus. You know, and it spreads very quickly. And so being cautious on the front end. You know in we doing your homework going beyond the three references, or your references tend to be about bosses.

And really what we know is people kiss up and kick down. So if your looking to select someone, you might look at what do people that report to them think about them or what did their peers think? How did they treat the parking a tender at the secretary, the coordinating person for their energy thats, where the stuff tends to show up- and I would say at so work the investment to do your homework, because it is too costly. Not evian hiring, yes, so I think Forgive me. I heard about a hospital. I read in your researcher hospital or some somewhere. I think maybe in a TED talk. You gave academic, a hospital that included, a rule that was Sir spatial in nature yeah, so that happened to be the ten five way. Oftener healthcare system in Louisiana started that in the whole idea was that if you are within ten feet of someone, you were to make eye contact and smile, and if you were thin five feet you were to say hello and what they found is that civility spread patients at US factions

course rose as yet. Patient referrals so really showed just the contagion of how this stuff works so that I think one of the positive things as small actions. Do but can't there become like a nanny state of yeah yeah I don't think it can be a rule right. It can be a suggestion that we think about how we show up and of course there were some doctors that were less than thrilled. You know- and this was announced that you can't make me- I don't have to you no kind of smiling, show up differently, but I think more generally paying attention to the culture and so- under the second area that I would highlight is what I call coaching and that that includes the setting expectations. It doesn't have to be something strict or some rules or whatever, but would you striving for you know? What do you believe in the respect that, Then staying away from unconscious bias ease the niceties that you would strive for and hope for a positive collaboration. Things like that so setting expectations,

I would say even training. So one of the things that I and many others have found is that training in this stuff has actually shown to have improvements for people, and the people are much more satisfied interesting because a lot of one of the critiques of you Sundays, your diverge city training criticised as maybe even backfiring in some cases, but sounds like civility train, can work a keen on in its interesting, because I get a lot more enquiries from now vice presidents or people that are responsible for diversity and inclusion, and I think the idea of just respect is a little bit more, maybe palatable to most people, so they're, not as defensive about like you know the fact that they may not be biased or something like that. But I think that there's a lot more rallying around the idea that we can all get on board with people should be treated with respect and dignity, or most of us would get on board with that

such and so trying to show the benefits of civility and respect has been one that organizations I think are embracing more and more and I would say that, holds true in an individual level. I don't have any data commitment, you probably do, but I My dad is all just experiential. I would they too, the doctors at that health care center organization you were working for, and I get I grew up in this is gonna pick up on several of the threads of what you have just said. I grew up in his organization where we're sitting right now at ABC News, a better. More than nineteen years on this floor couple hundred feet away from us sat, Peter Jennings. Who was a legendary news echo why loved and still love, but was really difficult and mean sometimes, and that spread through the entire environment wasn't just Peters fall. There were lots of mean people around at that time and you dad

combined with my character, caricature, illogical, deficiencies lead to me, sir, not knowing that I was walking around not being is nice and attentive as I ought to be, and is it turn In my experience of it, or game in this way just improves your day include, proves your inner, whether and when has it are really dramatic? So Ernie Data. Behind that, I would say a little bit and I would say definitely the stories uniting people experience it and feel very different. The data that we do have a round that is when we asked people. Why are they rude? Twenty five percent say because my leaders are so leaders are role models and people look up and whether there I just never not their role model in Vienna, the Peter Jennings. The world in your case and other organizations, its top leaders that may be toxic and most people assume they may have gotten there because of that behaviour, not in spite of it, which would is what we would hope would be them.

Since the people take, and so I think you know what I agents are trying to do now is not only you'll. Have this in their message statement and have it be an expectation but make sure role models. The leaders are buying into it and actually leading by example, but is in part problem or time about Peter and I want to pick up too much, especially since he was an raising human being in many many ways, but he he did have some flaws and they did include a lack of civility before me and honest about it, but I take part the issue of Peter and I've, seen a lot of very powerful people is yours rounded by yes, men and women and you don't have it nobody's giving you the feedback that hey you know this isn't a cool. I wasn't getting that feed back until I I'd only The three sixty, because I thought it was a good narrative technique for a book. I was working out about compassion. I know it deals in me, so devastating I wasn't looking for this feedback really is:

I was doing ok and but I think that, because I am a person with a lot of power and privilege in the culture and nobody really is acceptable to come up to somebody, me and say: hey, you know you were kind of a jerk there. It was really interesting. Over decade ago I had a friend that was a VP top organism, and she shared with me. She said I feel bad for people as they rise up and the organization, and I'm thinking and understand your words is going and she said because, as they rise up, they get less and less realistic feedback about, other doing you know and certainly to improve themselves and the whole idea is your three sixty illuminated is that that's really helpful to most people could otherwise, unless it's anonymous, People are not going to report, oh yeah, I was enormously after the record, and, and so it was as a cut very harsh. It was also very kind words. Yet this was a very skilfully done. Three six you I heard about my strength and then a lot about my weaknesses, but

and I've. I'm you know, I don't know that everybody can get. One of these visits are unknown but if they're always administered well, but it was astonishingly helpful, at three sixties are enormously helpful in this area in part, because again, people are much less likely to ever report like when we did that. First initial survey, well, over half of people said that they never told anyone in the organization, not the incident, so Courson nothing's going to change if they're not finding out about it. And so three hundred and sixty is a great source for this cuz. Ideally, it is seen as protected feedback, and you know the source is going to be revealed. I think it varies as from for what is a people really feel like its anonymous and whether its culture feel I fear or not though, I do think you have to do some setting the table to get people to really be honest, but you

point. If an organization or team doesn't have the resources to do a skilled. Three sixty, like you, were able to do one of the things that I found. That has worked really while as pure feedback, and there is even a hospital that I'm working with where physicians are gonna, be giving each other pure feedback and those that they work with, are gonna, be in an informal way, providing more peer feedback and what were measuring this now, but we're gonna see if that makes a difference. I suspect it will given what else we ve seen. Happen, but it's something that you can do even really informally like in the book. On my website? There's some team resources and I just suggest that, if you're working in a team, you might have a conversation about this stuff, and it can be a simple starting with wood are three things that you do well and you the EU should continue doing that, help you and your team or your organization. When are three things that you could work on, you know and it could be it.

Index card, you don't you just go over that and I think that his I've been told really helpful, because teams that have the courage and trust each other and will share. Ah, you improve areas of improvement. It really is helpful, so feedback as a gift. I think it's something that most of us are uncomfortable with negative feedback, and so we have to work on Kim Scott. Has a wonderful book called radical candour and I think that's the sweet spot that were striving for and what she talks about is if you care pursuing in new shone through little things that you know you like people and you won to do well and so forth. You can give more direct and candid feedback, so its care personally challenge directly, and I think that ideally you're doing that, because what I don't want, the message,

I'd be a civility, adjust copying nice, you know, and sugar coding fangs or that, because I think that there needs to be a balance with your providing people with the developmental and constructive criticism that you just described even on your three sixty. That's behalf, so you just very gracefully walk me up to the next point I wanted to go. To, which is what what kind of what can an individual whose in toxic environment do about it so you're talking about candor, let's just get specific Jesse, you have a boss or co worker. I think those are actually probably two very different scenarios, whose being a jerk. What can or should you do

Well, ideally, you would provide the feedback to them. A lot of people don't feel safe. Doing that because, like you said it makes a difference, that's a boss! I might not be comfortable with that. If you can get yourself comfortable, one way that you could approach, that is to ask them for some information about strengths and weaknesses of you and then to try to offer up some information on strikes a feedback for them. That would be one way too. It up. A lot of people are still not comfortable with that, and so it might be going to a director of hr or that person's boss or a mentor to figure out like what's the work around. How do we get this information to them in a way that I'm safe? But again so much of this stems from a lack of self awareness that I I gotta encourage people to have the courage to provide some of this feedback to some one to get

the information, because so much of this, that there never gonna learn. You know in this. It was interesting. The first time I ever taught executive education. It was with medical staff, so these were like chief medical administrator and I wasn't sure how this session on civility was gonna go and I had a doctor, doktor speak up and say you know we just started sixty feedback, and I never realised that people thought I was such a jerk. You know that they hate working for me and honestly, he had a very direct miller. Very like style about him, so I wasn't surprise just given kind of his tone, but he said you know. I just thought that I was training them. The way that I strange like he was being so authentic and saying I was doing the best that I could for them like. I got this great training, as I was passing it along but you know there may be generational differences or they may air.

Be differences and norms. The sky was in his early sixties, probably so things that may have changed from when he came through that same medical training system, and so I think the idea is if you can get them feedback somehow that would be the goal and if you can't get them free, but if you can't get a feedback, I think it's really. So potent that you focus on protecting yourself and often by avoiding them, so sometimes Maybe you know corresponding with the Secretariat Administrative System, or a t mate that gets along with that person. That may not be getting some of the toxicity a lot at times it may be working from home I'm moving your desk working different hours from that person, and you know I think the whole idea is that I could see how that would make me feel work of victim even more it might it might, but I think if you have the mentality that you don't want to,

them pool you off track. You know that you want to say strong and deliver your best and your best is probably not working around them because for most people your best spoken are working. With them with them yet, and so for many people, it's taking yourself as much as possible. Out of that situation, you forget but one of the things that we ve learned in our research is that d energizing relationships, even if they're not rude, it's not intentional. They just maybe people that, like some, the life out of you. You know your name to a project team in your thinking, I don't want to work with him or her. Those dna, rising relationships have four to seven times. The effect is positive, energizing relationship so oh yeah and psychology. Research shows that bad is stronger than good. So when you working around these situations there really really depleting economic sense from it, illusionary standpoint: we evolved for threat detection right that, yes, the sailor of the Sabre to Tiger is pretty important yet, and I think-

That's where, if you stay in those situations, that's where you see the health consequences catch up to people, because, like my dad, for example, you know he was a strong, authentic guy, you know yet he probably felt like this should not affect me right. I should be stronger than this. I I don't want to feel wimpy by complaining. I don't feel safe, complaining about bosses, but what stress researchers like Robert Suppose, ski and others have shown is that it's like these thousand paper cuts that add up and on fortunately, can lead to things like heart, attacks, cancer, diabetes and other. Really, harmful consequences in, for example, there's a research study at Harvard Medical School that shows that women working for a toxic boss, it's more detrimental than for their health and obesity, is

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I've been curious. Do you see discrepancies in the numbers here between men and women or men more likely to be uncivil than women? I think he'll be gate, be equally bad from either gender. I don't think it's a gendered phenomenon. We are doing a lot more research on this on gender and status, and what we do know is women have a higher bar for stability, so they expect more. For this I would say we also know that it plays out differently, for example, men it's much like Deborah tenants work on playgrounds where it's like boys do get out, you know and then their done their fine like it. You know Samuel laws on several to you, Samuel, sending him and he's one of not that he would are employees of the a company and he's way taller than me, so he can be as uncivil. They want, but He ever was uncivil. You know you might reciprocate and you no kind of

start yelling ego you may you two may do get out so to speak and then, but then you'll forget about it right. It's done, whereas women it's much more passive again, so you know it's not that they may not get even its. You may not know when it's coming poured, they may withhold information or they may talk badly about you or but you know the message should be: they dont make you pay. It just plays out very differently so we know that there are subtleties with gender differences, but I think not as much is people might anticipate, and when do you wear you put sexual harassment and is it could different category altogether than civility or is it under civility? I would say that its related, so oh civility, is not sexual harassment, they are different, but I think what we know is that their tends to be more harassment and uncivil environments, and other words is

very slope. So if you allow the norms to go on where people are really disrespectful, it's more like Those leaders, some of which you mentioned having worked with, but I would predict Those same leaders would be more likely to potentially her ass people in different ways and the Good NEWS on this is that we know that Seville of each training is actually one way to mitigate some of the consequences of or eliminate some of the bullying. Rasmussen. I, for example, there was an organization that I was working with training all their employees on civility this past year and young over. Ninety percent of people are satisfied with civility and bullying, and Erasmus has gone down sixteen to eighteen percent in just a year, so I think that it, if you strive form or civil, respectful workplace environment, your minimizing risk for

harassment, lawsuits soforth stay tuned. Moreover, conversation is on the way after this better help offers later professional councillors specialised in a week. Array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief, conduct with their profession. Counselor and a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners can get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with the counselor you'll love. Let's get the what I think is probably one of the most important cases gas, which is most of us. I mean you're. Friend, Dolly Chug was on the show, while ago had has a brilliant way of talking about our self image. We all most of us think ourselves as good p,

and any challenge to that is really hard to take Do you like to reform? It is thinking of ourselves as good. If people were generally You better have a capacity to make mistakes, and I Your point is a lot bus may not know that were actually the source of incivility. So how do we, figure that out, and why should we their figuring that out and what do we do about it? Yet we suspect we're not feasible. Think it's great, whether an individual organization, if you attack it with the framework of good too great, You know, I think all of us can relate to whether were practicing meditation or something else. That is a work in progress right, so we want to improve, and so I think idea is really honing in on whatever blind spots we may have in for most people that seeking feedback. So that's asking for free. Back, you know from those in our work, lives those in our personal lives. Again,

a simple as asking for strength somewhat to work on? I think you could do a team tune up where you attack. This is a team and give each other feedback around this. I think that you can be reflective about this throughout the day, some, but people journal in one of my my best one best when not mean Dan Pink, who you also had on talks about the win factor right and for me, for example, I much more a morning person. I would not want to have a crucial conversation or give negative feedback or respond to a nasty email good afternoon, but that would not be a good time to set off. I may drafted monotonous ended, fraid, so even knowing like time of day, I am also knowing your stress levels, so We know that stress is the number one reason for being rude or on civil, so kind of pay attention, even your body and how my feeling matters and can help people that way,

I think so much of this is actually about taking care of yourself and like the energy management aspect, where there that's the physical, the exercise, the eating right. The idea of and mindfulness really working on that nutrition, Why are you hungry that? No just a moment of that and then anything that you can do to reduce dress so whether that is the meditation mindfulness, whether that's yoga, being beside whatever the case may be. I think those things can help. Prime you in a course sleeping while which you mentioned earlier, but it can prime you for interacting more effectively with people also form an army I believe I akimbo remember if it was from red an article you wrote are reading the note, seven interview that one of my colleagues may have done with you, or maybe you said in your head, but somewhere, you said something to the effect of you know. One of my first piece of advice is get more sleep

yeah. This is incredibly simple, but so I see it right away, it's brilliant Well, I didn't. Actually you know there was a wonderful woman who works for Harvard Medical School and was filled with those hospitals that saw me present. This to some harbour business executives and she immediately came up to me and said: have you ever study sleep now she's asleep doctor and she said because I've been fighting for. Or you know not rooms, and things like that, because I believe that so much of this stems from a lack of sleep, You know the giving of it like we talked about like. Why am I on edge and maybe brewed or short with people or my tone isn't grade, I'm not picky and not mindful this, but also. How are we responding to that like if you're sleep deprived, you know you're on edge you're not going to take that well, so her idea and advocacy has been around you're fighting for better norms around sleep and not rooms, and things like that?

but she really has pushed me to focus on that and I do know even from our own selves of your travelling or something that you can't you just know. You feel differently show up different I really optimized for sleep exercise, diet. Those things are incredibly important. But I was doing that pre through sixty and I was still being a jerk still, I'm sure being a jerk and lots of ways, and I'm on aware of this is a lifelong issue. I will say that one of the things that been really useful for me in terms of of trying to improve my behavior wise it two things come to mind. One is the self awareness having very specific feedback seem where my way spots- are, for example like. I wasn't following the ten five rule. I would often be so stuck in my own head that I wouldn't give people basic information not because I like like them, because I'm just so self centred and warn about my own stuff. So just waking up that was super useful and actual really just changes. The complexion of my day,

is now. I have many more positive interactions, which of course we're down to my benefit psychologically and also professionally, politically. All that other stuff and I would add this is a very collaborative environment. So your relationships matter at it. It were sitting at ABC News, Renault relationships matter here was we worked together so, the other thing is stressed management in terms of how much do you have on your plate. Do you have an unreasonable set of expectations imposed on you or adopted effectively. So we're sitting here on a day when it's just been announced you you and I've, been walking to the hallway. It was using people then coming up and say, congratulations to me. Now that I'm going part time effectively here at ABC News, so I can been. Or time on ten percent happier the company I've been to do it all, and it was working out there well for me and this decision I made is a direct consequence in many ways of getting that three sixty and I find that pretty high

for that. Cutting back on the amount I expect of myself, and that is expected of me, we'll make me less crazy. Yet I think it be aid to your point really starts with you and how you feel you know and taking care of yourself and that's actually my focus moving forward I want to encourage leaders to take care of themselves, and then I think you get the positive effects. The positive spirals that allow you to have better relationships or better connections with people, so, whether that's respect, whether that's valuing people, whether that's recognition and appreciation for that's giving good feedback. All of that ties into the next room, which is the organizations culture, and so you can imagine if you have these better connections and of course that's multiple could have caused a lot of people are doing that. Then you have a much better cold you know and then the last piece I would suggest is the organizations doing good for society or doing meaningful.

You know it in, and I see that is kind of force ages, a fourth things, but I think what really kick starts things is: leaders need to take good care of themselves because in part I data with Tony Schwartz and Harvard Business Review. We collected data from over twenty thousand people working across industries and what we found is that there are real differences between just if a leader incur bridges like self care. You know and they role model it and if you're not doing both, you don't get many gains. But the hard thing is is again: as people move up and organizations, it gets harder and harder to biologists, and of course we have technology and everything else pulling us in a million different directions were on twenty four seven mean the world his become so much more stressful and also there's plenty of negative. Reporting us down so I would really like to emphasise that taking care, peace and actually anyone that's a leader, but even think about leaders and families whose leaders and communities

there's, a lot of people will say we have focused on families, are heavy focused on communities or have you focused on kids, and I think the messages are actually quite, similar? I am glad you brought us here, because you know we haven't talked a lot about leaders and I think I'm just putting myself in the mind of a listener of the show may think. Okay, I'm I'm at the bottom and individual contributor, or Ruby or I work on my own whatever but I really do want to encourage people- and I think, were in lockstep on this to evaluate their own behaviour, whatever rank, whatever position they occupy, and so would you agree with that absence and you're doing talk with the corporation last night, and I had someone come up to me afterwards and she said: have you ever studied parents and the effect on their children? She said because what I'm catching now. Is it I look at my child. I now have to say: where did here? She learned that from

You know some of their behaviors that I wouldn't want, for example. And I think that the same things happen in families as we would be talking about in the workplace, or certainly in communities in schools and self, or so I really, even though I focused a lot of the work on the implications for organisations a lot of it, is your son, real people and a lot of these experiments, for example our students and so no they're, not necessarily working, but we see the same effects on people and Oh, I think it's really important that we strive to improve in all areas. You have a self assessment test upon web ideal to those with that or we can find an yeah. So it's on my website it just Christine pour out about com. It's a free assessment, Ed's, thirty, two items, real, quick, your checking off how consistently you do these things. So how often do you say? Please or thank you half honorary sharing crime, how often are using email when you should? You have a face to face conversation,

and the whole idea is to home in on. What areas might you start? You know working on to improve and test online, gives you specific things that you could focus on the open, literally behaviors tat, you could do that might lead to better improvements, are really interested to hear how sure stories from your own life. Do you think that you are? You are you if you took that self assessment, honestly that you'd get you score a hundred, but I scored sixty six and now I see no, I'm very much a work in progress. You know I am not miss manners. I am not. You know and I'll be all. I am very much a work in progress on all of this stuff. I would say that you do so,

The things that I would feel worse about work be things like sending an email, but I I wish I wouldn't have you know just short succinct but maybe could be interpreted like you know. I didn't have a lot of patience I would see the place that I started. My improvement in this was a long time ago that a shared in the book was actually at something that leaders are often criticised for which is interrupting people oh you know. I think I literally, in a conversation would get excited, and but I would be jumping in, and I had a colleague actually U S friend, you know that said: do you realize that you're interrupting- and he kind of alerted me to it a few times, and you know that really helped me and I m sure I still do it. I probably done it with you, but I do it. I do a lot. I've actually worry about it. One thing that really helped me because I think the motivation for me is I'm sure, there's lots of really negative moving

Instead, I am unaware of what the one I'm aware of his exactly what you just said. I get excited. I- and I want to say the thing before I forget it wanting this rule. Help me is carrying a notebook with that. I just write it down and wait until the person finishes. Yeah, that's an awesome ample and Richard Branson and others would say like taking notes throughout is, is incredible and especially, Leader cause your signalling that you care you're, paying attention in come back to that and people notice I buy them. You know so. I think it's actually serves multiple purposes not just for yourself, but I think it's helpful for the other people to see that. So what do you do you staying on you for a second, you say you have. I'm sure everybody at Georgetown is perfect, but just say hypothetically, there was a nasty colleagues. What do you do? What do you do

yeah. This would be in work in progress to. I would say that my tendency, like my conflict management profile, would say on more of and avoid her and accommodate her, so I tend to put my head down and work independently. I mean I have a little bit of a luxury as academic and consultants and speaker that you know I have a fairly flexible schedule. I do not have to work from my office. I usually do not that's not always seen as a good thing. I colleagues at all it has consequences, but I would say that I got into this career to make a difference, and I see it more as a calling. So for me personally, I want to focus on my performance and making a difference and having an impact, and if that means doing it from someplace else other than the office and taking it in my face or having to wait out. When do I go to the bathroom, so I have to avoid somewhere Then that's what I do

it's not for everyone and I feel bad. Giving that advice, because not everyone can choose to work flexibly are from her home or with different, I also get to choose co authors. You know we get it choose projects that we collaborate with. You know something like we do write books. You would never write with someone that suck the life out of you, or that was going to be difficult right. I mean those those books take on a life of their own. You know, and in so doing research projects at me, it's embarrassing, I admit, but even the top researchers it takes years, doesn't take years to collect the data, but to get them through that top outlets definitely takes many. Errors, and so I am now much more careful with like who do. I want to spend my time in oil It also as you get older and although meditation practices, and so for said, Anne, you start to realize, like life ashore, How do I want to spend my time and energy? Where do I want to spend it, and you make choices based on that, so it becomes not just about the organization, but it

comes the question I ground. A lot of this in this actually started from the personal stuff is, who do I want to be? You know, and I actually wrote that unopposed it the day. I got tenure and stuck it next to my computer The whole idea is you're supposed to be able to choose that right that one of your tenure yeah, and so I thought I definitely better live but that was my montier on a day by day basis, also like making choices. And how do I want to respond to people and that's actually the question I use and that I encourage people to use as to how do I want to respond like if you have the ability to kind of you know not respond negatively or abruptly reciprocate immediately. The idea would be to think about like who knew I wanna be toilets and this email- should I think, about this differently? He's solid evidence to back up the assertion that if you are more civil, if you are a kinder, if you do have better relationships, you will do better proof.

Surely no matter what level Europe yet absolutely. I think your guest Adam Grant and a friend of mine, He's done amazing work in this area has a great book called given. Take that show long term benefits to being a giver. Ah, he is very careful to say, like you can't be adorn though right. There's thinking about the wind and the how and so for so there are some boundaries into that. Not all about giving you know what kind of resources are you sharing and you things like informational resources or connecting people verses, you know just making time for one or one meetings with every one. You ve gotta be aware of those things, but his research shows that in the long run being more of a giver than a take, her actually wins

in my own research is that civility does pay so one of the ways that we tackle this was we do these social networks are basically we survey people that are working with each other. I can I t department, you answer questions about every one and ninety department, self houses are they and what we find is that those that are perceived as more civil are twice ass, likely to be viewed as leaders and they perform thirteen percent better. And the meat thing about this researches that we found this to hold true with and be ace in the? U S very international and bee populations abroad. An even more recently with the global, consulting firm. So, I think more and more, what we're seeing is that people want to work around respect for people and people are more likely to seek information from you and share information from you and in the long run it pays as far as your performance. Do you think that Then he is there any evidence that meditation can help ones from absolutely I mean I think that what they ve

shown, and you had one of the top leaders from tee that started their programme there that found that people that went through this meditation training Gee General Mills, their general male, sorry that they were much more likely to be better listeners, and so I think you know to your point about the not always updating or taking a moment. I think that's been shown to improve things. I also you would know this better. But I feel, like more studies could be done to show that people carry themselves differently. You know that people probably show up and feel better about dealing with a leader that has embraced meditation or my it is not a silver bullet is my three sixty would suggest it was interesting in the three sixty people talk about Clearly has gotten a lot better, but there is more work to be done, and so I think I think

realizing meditation- is one tool among many and that you never going to arrive at some Brigadoon, perfect, perfect situation just going to have to keep working at this. The rest of your career seems to be the way to look at it yeah, I think really focusing on me. I learned us from Dead Conan, who is the former CEO of Campbell Soup Company and I loved his story, so he actually came into Campbells when they were doing terribly. Ah, so they have just half their market share sales were declining lots of people just been laid off. A gallop manager said it was the least engage organisation they ve ever worked with an in five years, Doug had really turn things around. With the nine years there were setting all time performance record track. Amp awards best placed to work, must ethical company most diverse company, and you know, when I asked Doug like how did you do this, he said well on day one. You know I promised that I was going to be tough on standards, but I was going to do it with civility and respect and

for him. It all came down to being tough minded on standards, but tender hearted with people, and he said really was all about touch points. Are these brief daily interactions he had with, people, whether in the hallway, in the cafeteria or in meetings, and if he handled each touch point well, he'd make employees a valued, and so whether that was you know, he wrote hand, wrote thirty thousand thanking us we'll see YO. It was evidence like that Really what he said was your paying attention and listening to people was really key. Oh, but he's he warned me said the young leaders have four hundred touch once a day. Most don't take two minutes, you know, but He is to be agile and mindful in those moments. Yes, yes, I just keep hearing, and I of this person is out there, but I suspect there may be somebody there are those who this saying. Yes all sounds good to a point, but My job really requires a roof, a ruthlessness. Yet well, how would you

but I suspect you hear that push o absolutely yeah. I dont get as much nearly as much anymore and it may become, because some of these concepts like radical candor had become more popular, but I think that what I don't want the story to be about is civility about being nice. You know not having the top conversations or not giving you the three sixty feedback. Actually, that is kind- and I think Bernay Brown pointed this out on your show recently. By you know it is about having the courage to have these tough conversations and so I think, creating an atmosphere where that feels. Welcome and people don't feel defensive about. That is really what your striving for and to me. The sweet spot is that I care personally, but I can challenge directly and I think organs Patients are really looking to find that balance because they don't wanna- and I have heard this from one organization like they were very.

Popular with doing a ton of unconscious bias, training and other things. They knew the psychological safety drove team effectiveness. Psychological served use just the ability. The feeling that you can speak up yeah that there's a sense of trust and respect. I feel comfortable living in that tough feedback or bringing an issue that I care about or throwing out a crazy idea, because it's cool, no, I can t. If you say that's crazy, I'm ok with that, but I'm not gonna, sit here and withhold this information and that particular Agnes. I shall want to make sure that they hadn't gone too far. So it's you know, staying in touch with my giving the toughie back and my speaking up under tough circumstances, and I think you know largely you have to have individuals and yours thinking about that daily. You know, but making sure the message isn't. You know we're just sugar coating us because that's not what we want, and I think this idea of radical gender. Is you know something that we should all strive for? Is there something

I should have asked but didn't Don't think so I mean I know you're working on kindness and I think that that's really needed and I hope that that improves things cause. I think we're not in a good peace in society or in a lotta workplaces, and I think we can and should do better, I think the Good NEWS is. I know from research that small actions you matter and that, even if you don't have a leadership position, you doing little things like some of our newest research is actually that we find that civility spreads to so people not only reciprocate at that they pay it forward no changes than their mood for the day and they pass it on whether they are aware of it or not. So we actually, I think, have more control over this. Then we know- and so I hope,

that's a inspiring and encouraging message, given that most people feel pretty defeated and pretty negative these days, just with the climate inside and outside of organizations, fulfils road through that's? Why won't have you on the shore food? The work is really important. Enclosing can use plug. Can I push you to plug your books, where we can find you any internet, etc, etc. Sure you, so it website is Christine, pour out dot com. Recent bokkis mastering civility. There's a TED talk out there and rightly have seen it's really good. Thank you. Hopefully smother resources for people to get. There was a book before that you could not cost a bad behaviour with Christine Pearson and are you are familiar? I'm on twitter piracy. Piracy did I get it off the refinery, so I think that some people are uncomfortable this I really need them to plug. This is great I really proceedings. Thank you thank you

like I said at the beginning, I love that conversation. So thank you again to Christine for coming on so interesting. Let's do the voice. Mail here is number one. I my name is, and I have a quite brink guarding movement. There's somebody meditation

set out now movement and I know, there's somebody different meditation. In general, I met the percentages of gold thing, but I have difficulty with his direction of hitting with a dignified pasture, almost the minute. He says that my body starts it short or twitter. I am under the impression that I shouldn't asked on the impulse to scratch. There's a lot of direction. Are the focus of brass force down, but what is the value of not powders? One bright, probity, twitters and come from under the twenties is paid, they tend to then just encompass. They find it hard to pull away from them and alive. You know,

Can I be empowered to scratch my a strange question. I apologize love being an insider. Thank you. So much for everything. Thank you. Let's not strange mention. Knowledge is quite common question. The boy answered just thank you June for being an insider. That's that's a huge deal for us. We will really help us get better at at what we're doing here, which we care about a lot. So thank you for that today, the traditionally the advice on this is a first. If you dared to scrap your age in the past, they knew not gonna get hit by lightning this. It's not a big deal I, which should not be a source of shame, but the traditional instruction as I've heard it is if you're sitting in meditation in your feeling a little bit is discomfort. The urge to you know shift in your chair or two. If you ve got an edge, do you feel the urge to scratch it? That of good? in practice is instead of doing what

habitually do, which is scratch the edge, because we don't like it it's we have an aversion, verse of reaction to it or shift in our chair is too actually tune in to the right a data of the sensations of the edge and to notice what kind of thought, having an relationship allowed. This is never going to go away. I can't believe I'm meditating meditation so still good. What kind of exercise would force you to sit here and not its this scratch this age I hate this thing were born. I was it, you know seven blah blah blah blah just to notice like we're, how does the mine react levels here, at least What are the physical sensations of the itch or whatever discover your experiencing and then? What is our mind do in reaction to these since and there's a lot to be learned from that, because we are kind of honest strain. All the time in our lives when were mindless just being Yanks tool. Or things in a black,

going toward things that feel good and running away from things we dont like- and this can be the source of suffering if you're, aware of it and and actually you're, not aware of it after the powerful move that we can. Get to when we start to root risk serve bring mindfulness to these situations is that we don't have to just begun. Around all the time on this rollercoaster between avoiding the unpleasant and gorging on the pleasant that we can have a little bit more ease in the way we live, and so the price of admission, sometimes is sitting there and trying to be mindful of discomfort or itching why oh you're meditating what you said, there's a great expression that Joseph go see. My teacher often uses is awareness. Doesn't care now already?

aversion may be coming up in your behind in these situations. The raw awareness that under goods, all of your emotions and desires and thought the raw awareness that old at all, has no preference, and that's an interesting. The ice and I'll drop that expression into my mind when something unpleasant like us, physical sensation, com, Well, I'm meditating awareness doesn't care because it kind of throws you back in the space of being mindful of it rather than caught up in this endless cycle between aversion and desire so just to be cut? if you are sitting in it and experiencing a significant amount of pain, and you think you're gonna hurt yourself, do move or get up so there the goal. Here is not to hurt yourself, but if you think you and be with it. I think

a lot to be learned about the way the mind works and another thing steal from Joseph he's. Got this thing this phrase in order or to mind. You might notice that you're actually sitting there on Sunday, we'll being mindful of an it sure, a pain in your knee, but action If you look closely there's a thin air of aversion there, because you're being mindful with in order to make it go away? and suggest noticing. Well is this Mindful am I really being as there you know you can get deeper and suggest that phrase in order to might know now that you ve heard it from Joseph via me, might surface. I found that it can sometimes surface at an opportune moment in meditation. You doing. Let's do voicemail, never to programme

Name is clear, and I live in simple Minnesota. I'm an avid listening to your podcast, I'm very happy to be a pot cost insider as well, and I also use your ass for my daily meditation and got a little out of some the courses on it and can I thank you for that, and and thanks to the whole campaigned happier team minorities, a team effort to produce only things anyway. My question: can you talk a lot about medication, helping you could be less of a jerk two people around you and itself. I have a different challenge. Can't be too nice? I'm talking not direct and tough enough as a way to the boy. Could you people avoiding conflict in those situations and I'd really like tat.

More about her. Medication can help with that challenge. I got a little out of Orange J Sofas Course, Andy about communication, so I get anything there is a lot better. Mindfulness and meditation can do to help with not avoiding being adjourned, as it were so you had led him about that thanks so much of it. This is where I was working on a book about kind. This is where I wish. I had already finished the book and really knew what I was talk. About something to say about two things, but with the caveat that I wish I in Salzburg here too, because her her rapid, tighter than mine, and then she's been looking at working with in my own mind and teaching other people to work with this stuff in their own minds much longer than I have so, just just just put a link humility into the into the out into the discussion here from jump, but so the first

thing? That came to my mind when I was he say this is that it's such a useful reminder, because I working on this book about kindness and sometimes joke that I want to call the book. The self interested case for not being given word than jerk started an alien and He- and I were talking to a young woman who was working with, and she said you that's funny it's funny title but, for me. I she said exactly what you just said, which is I promise future I'm not a jerk. My promise, I need to learn how to stand up for myself it is very useful for me to hear. So. How do you practice compassion? in a way that does not end up with you being a doormat, so there few expressions that come to mind that and I'll get a refund them in a sort of unsolicited way. That, I think, might be useful here one is that this tibetan phrase idiot compassion so being

I should. It does not mean it properly understood compassion does not mean that you just like you know, give way, your money and let people you disagree with have their way with you or like have people who have wronged you over to dinner. Its This is not what's on the menu per se. Is that's a misunderstanding and the Tibetans often call that idiot compassion is, as I understand it, and please, if you're there experts in Tibetan Buddhism who no way more than I do. If I've got that wrong. Please let me know on twitter, but if but there are ways to practice compassion that absolute, We are in constant with standing up for yourself, without being a jerk. So there's a guy. Set of fierce compassion and then there's the cards self compassion so Let me just unpack both those for a second. There fears Passion thing is that you are sometimes used, thing is unjust,

in the world. A certain amount of ferocity is which called for and that doesn't have to come out of a place of hate grid and maybe not even out of a place of anger. Yes, there may be some anger there, but it's open quest for me at least a how useful anger is. But who can nonetheless be fierce and determined and relentless in pursuit of protecting the underdog or protecting yourself, which brings me to self compassion. So I would argue that you need to be more of a jerk, but you may need to stick up for yourself and it is entirely possible to do that without being a jerk and that's Self passion? You know lip communicating as clearly as possible with as much empathy or your interlocutor as possible. What's yours a jar while understanding what that person's needs. Maybe,

Oh, that seems doable to me and united. It's one of the pr issues that compassion has, which is that people think well. If I do this, I am going to You know I'm getting everybody's gonna walk all over me the data that my friend Adam Grant, whose researcher the University of Pennsylvania, the warden bids school. There he's come up with He studied the workplace and he's found that there are three types of people in in his schema in the workplace, givers takers and matters so give preserve a very generous in workplace, environment takers. Not so much in matters are kind of transactional and he's found that the least successful people in workplaces are the givers. And that the most successful people are the givers which ill minutes, an important lesson you can

do it right or you can do it wrong, so you dont want to be giving so much that you don't get any of your work done Could you also want to give in a wise way that creates an atmosphere where people feel safe around you? They try, do they want to help you, you feel enlivened and invigorated, because giving feels good, but you are so don't want to be a doormat and so fine- This balance is in credit. The important- and I you have a leg up actually because you It sounds like being a jerk does not come naturally to you, what you need to learn, how to do perhaps based on your voice I don't know you, but perhaps what you need to learn how to do is be better at protecting yourself being fierce in defensive. The more vulnerable and being fierce on your own behalf to make that you're getting what you need? A new you're not being treated unfairly

doing that does not require being mean or cruel, whereas the great churn Salzburg has said it's possible to compete without being cruel. I hope that I admit I've been trying not to ad lib my answers recently, but for reasons that are not going to be interesting to you as living the answers today so, but I I I didn't prepare for that advance, but I hope that what whatever came out of my mouth you thought I really appreciate the question also appreciate you being an insider as we can. Was here two things: I want to make an ask that are used to say this at the end of the podcast all the time it I've kind of fallen off the when it's kind of perfunctory for podcast hosts to say, at the end, please rate us. A review of Sir sheriffs and social media is all that stuff. Does matter. It helps us grow. But let me just the home in on the sharing peace for a second. If you if Europe for it in your feeling. Inspired

to share. Maybe there's an episode that really has meant a lot to you if you feel moved to share it with an individual or many individuals or on social media. I think that would be great for us. The package is doing great, but we could always, as I have quoted this expression of the show before, But- in the words of asean parable, everything is perfect, but could, but it could also use a little improvement, so we'd we'd be always happy to grow more, and I think, sharing might be an interesting way to do that. To have you- the time in the motivation to do that. That would be awesome before I go they can't you to all of you for listening, big thanks to the people who make the show possible, including a Samuel, Johnson, Brace Livingston, the inimitable, Ryan, Kessler and Mikey was Workin aboard stays the bus right like Debussy. Really appreciate its you guys next Wednesday. There's, not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona

I was pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people who were soon.

Every day this is my last day of the cylinder stretch to drive off about photos from one of our Visa or America's essential workers, the people who are keeping moving. I turn into a home school mom and now in a new programmes. From eighty see news you gonna hear from damage. I she went back to my office and so unkind because he is not here, and I can assure you that our community has found faintly worrying. This is essentially inside the from the emergency room. The police cruiser to the Czech outline Yuki one. This pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves no one's way, there's always a risk. Brain is home to re. Kids are my husband or maybe errands, listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, river, pod, costume.