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#211: How to Make it in Hollywood (and everywhere else), Brian Grazer

Brian Grazer is a Hollywood giant! He’s made more than 100 films including Splash, Apollo 13 and the best-picture-winning A Beautiful Mind. He tells Dan this week how he has used his own curiosity in others to build powerful relationships. He takes us back to when he was a law clerk at Warner Bros. delivering papers to the biggest names in Hollywood and how he was able to overcome personal obstacles to strike up conversations he would turn into connections. Grazer also discusses how he uses transcendental meditation to calm feelings of anxiety and fear. We also discuss his latest book, Face to Face: The Art of Human Connection, his secrets on how to engage with others, and the importance of eye contact is when it comes to building relationships. Plug Zone Face to Face: https://www.amazon.com/Eye-Contact-Power-Personal-Connection/dp/1501147722 A Curious Mind: http://www.grazeriscurious.com/ Social: @BrianGrazer An Evening with Joseph Goldstein and Dan Harris: Staying Sane in a Crazy World https://www.nyimc.org/event/an-evening-with-joseph-goldstein-and-dan-harris-staying-sane-in-a-crazy-world/ Dan’s Book Recommendations: https://www.tenpercent.com/reading Ten Percent Happier Podcast Insiders Feedback Group: https://10percenthappier.typeform.com/to/vHz4q4 Have a question for Dan? Leave us a voicemail: 646-883-8326
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Four may be seen as the ten percent happier vodka in her again, we get up. We have fun show this week. I can't think of the guests in three buckets. One bucket is deep, meditation teachers wisdom Alders, etc, etc to scientists sewer or really gone deep on. An issue like civility or compassion or something those lines, happiness of some sort, some angle, unhappiness and then three it just p or with amazing stories, and that's where we're landing this week, brain Grey, There is a Hollywood legend at he hats. Bathing stories with real, take away It pertains to do in your life better I've come and let me just do one quick, very quick.
A business and has to do with the fact that I will be doing alive event with Joseph Goldstein in New York City covered up in just a few weeks. We just posted in episode with him, which was perhaps the most popular thing we ve ever done. So if you want see us talk in person, and I know you not come for me. You come for him. That's coming up on December. Fifth from seventy nine. It's a benefit for the Insight meditation centre. The New York Insight Meditation Centre, which is an incredible place, right here in New York City, where you can not all learn how to meditate but also deepen you practice and meet other people who are on this path and- and I think that those kind of those who are human can actions which are massively devalued in our current society are incredibly valuable so come on out, if you all are more about that its and why I am see dot, Org forward, slash events and why I am see DOT, Org Ford, slash events,
ok, brand, greater, reduce Bio, it's very short, but it's nice home later, just read people's bios whole cloth, but this is search it on me. you'll see. Why do it rang Razor is an Oscar winning producer in New York, ass best selling author, his films and television shows have been nominated for forty three academy awards and one hundred and ninety five m. His credits include a beautiful mind. Twenty four APOLLO thirteen splash arrested, development empire eight mile Friday, night lights, american gangster and genius, among others, so is written two books, and this is where things got a little confusing for me, his new book is called face to face, and it's about what I was just talking about in terms of the under appreciated value of actually M face today.
Relationships and the book he wrote before that which was a number one New York Times best sellers called a curious mind: the secret to a bigger life, and it's all about curiosity. Now I this is safe and bear things embarrassing things about my level of operation here? I somehow doesn't get a chance to. Reboot was books before the show, because we just have so many guests and blood them read books that are quite long and I didn't know that I can read Brien's book before. became on, but I notice that my wife had purchased a copy of a curious mind, and so I started to read it before We did his interview and our feeling really, you know proud of myself for doing my homework and He was only and you will hear this is only like the third, the way through the interview that that's that it becomes clear to me that that's not the book. He wants to talk about Yeah you want to talk about. New book would, of course, face to face
find, there's music, be any damage to him or to you, because both the book serve are fascinating, but the little embarrassing to me so quickly week. We talk about Cuba ass as a skill, which is a really interesting skill that we can all develop in its. It is what has powered his career and lots of interesting ways, and we talk about the thesis a face to face, which is the power of conversation, the power of of having human connection and really what was went. One thing as interesting for me is to him talk about his own introversion and his own fear of talking to people he doesn't know, even though he is such a big deal and how he can use that fear as a true when he notices he's scared, he's kind of trained himself to lean in to go talk to the person who wants to talk to when he's feeling fear, because that fear is a signal our yet. This is probably important to you. You should go, do it. So enough said for me here we go brand greater
greater meet you great meeting. You too thanks for having me I'm so friendly for a Hollywood producer Rebecca. I thought we could get some attitudes No, no attitude. I was actually not that's Bryce. Having read the big chunks of your book, I'm really interested in the idea that had never really struck me before. I looked at your book about curiosity as a skill, and you also have this great you if great passages and quotes into book about the power of story. So let s start with a story from you about how curiosity became so central to your life. How did that happen? Well, it happened it sort of blends together with this new book called face to face basically I was again acute acutely dyslexic kid throughout elementary school, meaning that I couldn't red one word. couldn't I couldn't assemble or understand the sequencing of a sentence? I couldn't read it all.
But no one really so there for us pretty of his eye was misunderstood, to say the least, and and so to avoid getting called down by the teacher really what I would do. His I'd invent ways to avoid eye contact and soak up avoided Ike eye contact and I wouldn't be asked a question or I wouldn't be asked to counter the blackboard and then be further shamed, and but then there cat got to the point. Where is about and fish their sixth grade, and I can read a little bit and then I found that by reading a little bit it gave me the confidence, to actually look at people and when I looked at people that became the crown jewels because I could then
Fine. Looking at somebody and a present and I'm interested, I can learn everything. Human beings became my text book and I would have these interactive expansive interactive conversations with almost everybody. I also like people, so it worked it was it worked pretty easily, and inserted, and so that's how come worked out and then to accelerate go forward? I want. Do you see a scholarship deals? see did pretty well, but the day I got out of college. I asked myself this rhetorical question, which I often ask myself rhetorical question. I said, did I actually learn anything, and I thought I don't think, I did learn anything that must have learned something, and I thought Well, I guess I learned how to cope with larger populations of people are ok That's what I learned that I learn anything else. Why learn something about what that means?.
Then I thought there was one class. I learned a lot in this is Doctor Milton, while bonds graduate abnormal psychology class, but it is a very big class. I never met him so tat. I think I'm gonna go me Doctor Milton Walter. so I sent him a couple of letters. Didn't get much didn't get any response. Fifth, and that was all this that summer. I did it immediately. I I try to do things immediately, microscopes immediately and no response, and that this is gonna work, for me: I'm gonna go to summer school and I'm want to find him amateur weight as class, which I did sir, I'm the guy, that's been sending you a couple of letters and called your office. Oh but didn't you graduate, I said I did graduate, but that doesn't mean I I said I did
You were, but I'd really like to have a cup of coffee you do. All I need is five minutes and I realize I could turn five minutes into an hour. and by doing that I learned even more from Doktor Milton Walton Donnelly. Himself away was doing what he was doing, but about the class, the subject and the heartbeat of the subject matter to me and what removes a class about abnormal psychology have nor will say, college as what it was called, but it wasn't like freaks. It was just like we're all abnormal I agree with that me. We ve all been traumatized in some way, sometimes mild, sometimes extreme. You know it's just that stuff, so you got your, five minutes and it turned into an hour with him and what that teach you taught me that I can do that with anybody all the time. They taught me that I am that I had the power to do that
and even though I was you know, just a little can a nobody and I get this little. Nobody job as a law Clark at Warner, brothers- and it was it was Warner. Brothers was only a coincidence. I had no, I didn't go to film Squire had no knowledge of moviemaking or television making, and I had I wasn't even of a big fan of either. Actually, I just got this job in this little tiny office as a log clerk I was assigned periodically to look just to fill the civil law clerk. Your your job was just deliver paper. Yes, and if they No papers deliver periodically files. papers, but mostly I just had hours of nothing to do, but you did this thing. According to the book, according to a curious mind where you insisted that whoever you are delivering papers is delivering his folks. In Hollywood,
have, you would insist that you needed to deliver it in person to that too. That person yes opposed to their assistance and then you were able to get. Faced with these folks. Exactly that I was able to get face to face here. So I mean the first person I He had to deliver. Two was one of the biggest stars in the World WAR in baby, and he was just getting ready to make the movie. Having can wait if any one remembers that, but it dumb so my job as deliver some papers to warrant baby and his assistant He was living at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, a very brisk assistant came down and said hand me the papers, and I said I can't hand you the papers. I have to have them directly, Mr Beatty Other, and he said just give me, papers I said they're not legitimate they're not authorized. I'm not authorized to do that after him directly to him. They would be involved in that case, and so the guy was really pissed, but
got me up to see Warren Baby we're. I would therefore hand him the papers in his penthouse at the Beverly Wilshire, and I did the same thing I did with Doktor Milton welcome. I woke and I started talking and I gave him a conversation in that went at least in our and I thought I learned a lot. I learned not just a lot about him, but I learned a lot about the language of Hollywood, the vocabulary and what it was, and I began just this very gradual step into de mystifying how Hollywood worked so interesting that just to go back your childhood for second curiosity started as a survival strategy. Yeah zone is here because you, you weren't its remarkable that you didn't get driven further into yourself and an enclosed in yourself, because you
red and therefore had to avoid eye contact remarkably survived. That became the extrovert you are, but you did and the early able to read a little bit and but you use that as a tow hole to ask a bunch of question exactly yes, thank you, yeah That's it! That's that's exactly what happened and I am. It was just a survival to survival too, and I was able to like really maximize had optimize with that was in and and it became the web. It became the beginning of a discipline. What will I worked at Warner others not only derided deliver papers, periodically to really famous people like worn baby and Billy freed ten, who directed the exorcist or even the author of the book, the exorcist, oh, the importer bloody my met, Francis Cobler deliver so into it.
Newspapers at every one of them. I turned into a pretty big conversation and I had the good sense to not ask for something you know. I had no like give me a job kind of things. I thought nope I'm going to make this pure I'm going to make it just an authentic conversation present time with no ambition beyond that. So then, when I saw the attack your work, I use this little office as the brain Grazer Brand Warner brothers to do it every day with people that I had no papers, and deliver too so I would create a list of all of the chairman of the boards of all the movie companies and television networks and star directors like Richard, Brooks and actually Millbrook by the way Herbert Ross and famous directors and I would just every single day make a call say hi. My name is
I am Grazer. I work at Warner Brothers, business affairs, this. not associate with studio business, and I want to meet your boss just to get it for this coming reasons, and I would research with them. The bosses interest or some little hooky phrase that would at least peak the interest of the assistant, or at least have the assistant, would would know that I'm a thoughtful person and that got me at been enabled me to meet every single person I reach out to every single day, slight digression, the I want to go with this footing, but, just as I was reading your account of this, I had this thought I, like you, I am white male jewish, but have jewish but you are you're off, have to Russia, Saudi you. Two ok do your operating in a world which is dominated by white male, jewish folks. Yes, I wonder, would you have been successful, especially that
of time in hustling in the way in which you were hustling. If you were a female of color, not a chance, I don't think it would be at that time. I don't think so would that work no still be hard. I mean. Why would a credit attempt to get tough question? Why think? I know because I, You know. I met Eddie Murphy when you do raw black comedian, and I and I made his first movie, I mean I made movie together COD Boomerang, which is a cop hit. Yes, again. I remember it, but basically made a lot of movies were louder movies and television shows him to today. You know, like I'm doing a wreath of frankly, the Wooten clan as a series it's on
Hulu right now, but there still is there still remnants of real racism for sure I would experience it now, as I was working with the biggest star in the world, one of the big stars and World Eddie her feet, and so I can in no the layers of all of how that that's embedded in the business of business, the real. I ask as I from just curiosity, to use the phrase that user I loaded word in this context is also the just that I'm always thinking about how to make the advice of my interviewees actionable for listeners. I also would Europe the Spirit that you up with which you approached this serve. Curiosity quest is, I think, deeply admirable, but I'm just wondering how actionable is
for folks who don't look like us today. It's it's quite actionable. I mean, if you read the book, you'll, see these stories that involve different sizes and shapes and colors increase of human beings and gives them entry points, have power and bridge into having power and opportunity. But it's it's. You have to start with this. Would this the slight and subtle step of this one step of actually looking at somebody word out ambition, just look at them.
calm way and then they'll look back at you and it acknowledges there's a way to look at somebody whatever color you are, that acknowledges were both human beings and that's that's the goal, because if you can acknowledge each other as he were, both human beings, then you create relate ability. If you create lay relate ability, you can then create rude ability and that's what move these do that's the that's. What so magnificent about a movie readability, meaning officer, numb rooting for you, you're rooting for me, you're rooting firm, just Brian Grazer in the elevator, your room rooting for me. If you, if you relate to me as a human being. They say Jimmy I can have a minute with you- is a really good chance that person's gonna say yes, highly highly likely, but you do have an ambition
your ambition, Isn t necessarily to get a job or money out of this. Other person, but your ambition is to learn by a bit to learn, but I learned through human connection, so I I can tell you right now this minute, I've already Learn something about you, a few things about you that are really valuable so that I could transport into Television show or movie, or just my life for integrated into my life. What did I learn? the first thing I learned is embarrass you bet I learned being really well Poised, as you are, is a very big benefit.
And people can work to do that. You can aspire to be well poised. You have it naturally cause you have a really spectacular voice and that helps becomes the umbrella whenever I am actually very interested and voices, because I have to be because to be an impact, full actor you have to have a voice that is, is has weight to it. The special Inanimated films, what you ve done, yeah for sure I have done for data, but in regular films I mean you know Murphy as a really because when you breathe from your diaphragm it does hope you have a stronger, more sustainable voice. If to do twenty takes the many used are getting.
Originally western Europeans, I found that I've worked with some of the greatest actresses in the world that were once a couple, the boundless interim or french and is very hard for them. They have weak voices because they breathe from higher place their breath ear. So but the point as is its in it, it's an advantage to have a voice like yours and it becomes. You can work with it. You know understand the power of the and and it immediately signals intelligence and I'm assuming earned of debts It may signal more than it actually delivers, but I don't y know. You are intelligent, but the point, as is dead.
I thus what I learned. I think, there's a real strength and being well poised. People will take you more seriously right, but I think it actually gets back to not the sound. I'm always wary of sounding kind of ostentatiously woke, you know, but I've just been reading and thinking about these issues. A lot recently related to you know that what it to whiteness, but it is That is why it is something as in so many ways conferred upon me. That is not in eight, in other words the culture, confers upon me as a white guy approaching fifty with a deep voice, has been performing in front of the lights for all this time.
avatar that I may or may not have especially relative to other folks who don't look like me, so it's it just gets back to really that's why I brought this up in the first place. I think why we can come back to it is. How can he's your advice is incredibly valuable of, but how to harness the power of curiosity? How can we do that? No matter what we look like a no matter, what prejudice the culture brings to the table? Why think? Ok, I understand I understand of of the delicate subject to her, but I think that. There are people. Yes, you know if you're, if you're, not if you're not white, unfortunately your coming from behind a little, but I do think that, because your coming you bringing to the tabled symbols that create pressure
this, unfortunately an dumb and that's it, you know I have a lot of compassion for the, but I know, friends of mine that have they conquer their able, conquer that a friend of my name melody Hobson. I normally I've spoken to work here. Melody haves, eventual tribute or Tavi seen. Yet he has to be asked. Mary did George Lucas through measures that she's a superstar? Yes, yes, but she actually told her staff. I learned this last year. Will work took a car right, we're in aspen. We just have to mean the same. Car keys were being transported and she told her team I don't want you, I don't want you to wear relaxed, you know ST clothes, I want you to wear, suits and ties, and- and she was very she's The issue is a very smart and very alert person, and
She is aware of that and she wants all of her team to have the same competitive advantage, or at least the sense that they be the equality of that and we have left it, but what? What? Whatever color you are? I would rather see a brother say you have to work to create respect and and dignity. And and when you have that you're taken you taken more seriously its the few that can be you know very relaxed in and in an environment yeah. I'm just beyond just aware that I get to be more relaxed the colonel you're right. You do you do and. I learned this late in life. By the way, did you now just how do how do I use this is? It is often said, as is often said, for white man.
Actually it's the water. We swim in or not it is it, but I've had a few Good Pike S guests and a few good friends and read a few good books in new you. You can't have become more alert to it. You know it is a quick thing in how a Hollywood thing, what about twenty years ago I decided I, despite my hair, up, really high, it's not that I did it knows that I I cut it. My wife, Veronica's insisting short, my hair so, but I used to have eased despite very high nobody wars, heads by tear, but my daughter, Sage said we jumped out of Meanwhile, she said I, like your hair like that night. I think I'll try it and I found, despite very spite disparity which nobody had. It mostly enraged people. They tell. Why did you do that and I can start first of We had better change than I thought so really good litmus test. I think I like it. I like that it's
going to bring out what ever they might be thinking anyway sooner it also silly kind of yours nature became kind of sing dry, wasn't intending forwards but it did became it did, and there is the most powerful person in show business. So to me: if you don't change your hair, you're, not gonna, be taken seriously, say what did you say to them, he ran the biggest agents in the world. The time called see a river tapes and his Right or wrong is what he said. He said you're not going to be taken seriously by the business community. If you have you her spiked, while it was wrong clearly, he was wrong, but I at the time I thought you know what I mean they be taken seriously by the creative community, because that's where the real value as the people that are creating the ideas writing stories.
That are giving life to ideas. That's where the real leverages through a leverage is creating trust with the artists because the artists are the ones that are doing, and I probably lost a few people Isn't this guy's along the way, but I did have the idea that they wanted and therefore they had to tolerate the herd Arza. Let's go back and tell you you're telling a great story when I totally kind of on board you here, but that the you are this kid: in Hollywood, twenty three, twenty four Euro legal co with whom he managed to get himself into an office, a story you tell in and the book a curious, my? U from manage, get yourself in office and big nice, nice big office and you launch this quest to not only get face to face meetings with whoever you have to deliver your papers to, but also every day you talk to somebody you didn't. An actual were the result of all that the
the results were I got to learn. I understood the inner mechanics of how the media business work. I understood that how to create leverage, though all the different options, all the different ways, one could create leverage and leverage. That's what life is life is you have to have leverage due to create a job to create opportunities for yourselves to create advancement it all at all. Is you have to have something of value or you have to accrue added value to yourself like if you want to be the man it if you're in, encouragement. You have to be getting smarter. There's this thing about saying I say like when someone learned, something as a when there are clearly on a zero learning curve, because you're feeding information there. Just not learning it cycles are stupid. It just sit there that it just doesn't computing
they might be in the wrong business. The point is is vital by disrupting your comfort zone and then looking at people face to face and getting up for the game mean being up for the challenge of media new person. That is, might be expert at something that you're not expert at it just makes you better and smart. And that's where all the real insights and jewels come from is lack is by doing things are tough, not being complacent. Complacency doesn't breed anything positive, but Did you did it ever go wrong for you? I mean I mean he's. Ok, so tell oh yeah, I've had a lot of failed attempts, said Europe with the face to face mitigation or cure well with Isaac s modifies again. Isaac offers the most prolific writer of science fiction, maybe ever and
I flew from Ella to New York to meet him and took a year and after five minutes, his wife said to him we're leaving Isaac after four. They left after five minutes I just didn't know enough about him. That's what she said this very clearly doesn't know he doesn't know, and it is no your work Isaac. He does know your work well enough and I did therefore didn't warrant the conversation in the book. You admit She was right away. I do admit that she was right that I I've known more and that by the way has in this book it says definitely you have to use your smartphones technology is incredibly valuable. Companion. Please help smartphone I'm sweating hurry, I'm you use smartphones, but don't do them when you meet people when you meet people, the story starts Azure approaching somebody, and so therefore do really well, your phone and be fractional eyes have your attention. They be juggling. Her phone while you're introducing you're soft somebody? No,
you don't wanna, be looking at it when you're at a restaurant or you just don't wanna, be doing that you're, never gonna really connected them, but in, nobody valuable and if I had one then I would have learn more about Isaac Asthma wherever there's a lesson right there, which is if you're gonna request somebody's time. You better do your homework, again, otherwise they may feel like you're wasting their tally with exactly definitely do homework, but dont do it in the middle of meeting so another thing that comes up in my mind. Is you know you you had to use the phrase at our grandmothers might have used courts, but in order to do this, you had confidence, yes guts. In order to to do this, will what? If? What? If for those of us who we don't, have the kind of confidence to say in a minute Try to request a meeting every day with somebody knew. How do we gin? That up is that is that possible, even it very
possible. Well, I can only Ev Ry suggested just to just to amend what you're, what you're saying that means that I mean I've, practised? This I mean I wasn't. I didn't have hoods by you know as a kid My curiosity, but I'd be scared to talk to people. I'm still. as recently as two days ago, There were somebody I really wanted to talk to the was sitting right across from me, and I go. I just thought. do it- and I don't think much more than that. I just cause, if I think about it, I won't do it I'll go here. I have to introduce myself and I'll just be kind in my introduction annual pretty much always get kindness back. You still want to what you don't want to do with people is interrupt them and then start asking a bunch of questions.
And you definitely don't wanna ask for how do I reach you don't mean you can read the one should read this book honestly phase debase because it will help you fear if you're looking for You know a romantic relationship, you looking to clothes on that romantically rich relationship or meet the potential person that of Europe of yours. I've or get promoted or get the job or raise the money that you need to raise for whatever your startup is or whatever your life job is. It happens this, way in all the stories in the book or kind of good. On Hollywood stories, most of them. that show how this bridge works so you're, saying but you when you very simply holding up a sign of face to face you're. One of you.
Some even your team, sunlight crowd ever hear of develop face to face. I was confused allergies she's, holding up your beer new book. I was confused. I thought the new book was a curious mind, because that was the book that my wife had bought and was sitting on our tables. So I started to read it in preparation for this interview. I didn't realize the new book is First of all, thank you little. I worry. There are two books so when I roof reference the book in the gear, this interview, I'm referencing, the first books, ok I'll just so, what at the zoo, actually just it just to say that the first book is about the conversations themself right of the first book. Your curious mind is about, as is a synthesis of many of these curiosity Congress. Patient, but I had this flash moment two years ago, realizing none Those conversations would have ever taken place. No one would have shared anything with me. Had I not looked at them with the present state of mind.
They would that they would have just shut me off. as regards my shut me out, because I didn't know enough about his body of work, but there many people that I didn't know enough about their body of work, that warrant Quintus literal as Isaac A but end. There were more forgiving and not to say I need to be forgiven, but they, but human beings, usually forgive other human beings for the sake of human connection, because you that its unpredictable, what one can learn another person, and it usually leads to something like a job. boyfriend or girlfriend something that's really valuable, and so without the first sip of actually looking at somebody using that bridge of I
contact it. None of it will ever happen so, but just going back to confidence for a second. Yet, as you said, an interesting thing, which is that you, you didn't, have some innate overweening confidence, you actually had the opposite. I had the opposite, and so will. I was scared, so talk to me in a bit more detail about how you overcome that fear in order to do these things that, I think, are scared for a lot of us. Well, I have. The advantage of you know now enriches our advantage of working on movies and when actors gets stuck even the greatest actors, I won't say their names, but I've worked with all of them. They can get stuck and they can go twenty thirty times, trying to say the same line or the same constellation of words
and they can keep tripping up, and so what do you do? Directors give them a prop. They say: go to the lamp await. Carry this ash trade to the lamp. Oh wait! A second you're gonna flick your hair, so you have to create a proper yourself. Do you have to create a prop for yourself to have conversations when you're scared, you have to say I am just going to do this, I'm just going to say hi, I'm just going to wave my hand, I'm just going to look at them and see if they look back at me. I'm going to give to create a ten in the book at has a granulates all these different little props that you can use to create. in relation to community level. Well, one would be often I just say hi. I did go hey like that If you get a hate back, then you go like either we would you're doing here or get off it's a party because sometimes Europa
pretty. I still get nervous parties. I shouldn't because people think I'm so good at them, but I always get nervous at a party. As my wife, I have so much social anxiety, but I I I always come to a party with three stories. Every I've done this for twenty five years. If I go to any it'll big lunch, I took away in my pocket. I write like three little stories a piece of music that just came out or. or like just going Nausicaa, yet everybody's talking about little nose. Acts by everyone plays that my resounded goes up to elections, seventy five times a day and says play oldtower road. Okay, so old town, road yet so I'm not getting. I'm not gonna, say to somebody hey. Do you know old, town, road mobile. I say I sort of tea with the fact is. So the video about. Why this is really cinematic, so I have something say beyond just do no little noise axes but about old town
than I I can say, wow. I love that school way that goods that they choose, It's really cinematic is like a tick. Tock Minos, like you know, I come you just come up with something that other people aren't saying you have to be prepared. So if you're going to do the courage game, you can't just go, you want something to say so you it's it's had come upon. You to It's a news, listen to your podcast tenor. No, you have to have to be alert in the world you after you know, yet to be a genius, but you have to be have something to say, but it sounds to me like you're doing another thing which is interesting, which is you ve turned. I dont know if this deliberate, but this is what I was hearing. What you're saying, which is you ve turned your own fear
into a prompt which is a have you noticed. If I hear you correctly, you sound, like you notice, I'm feeling some fear about this person. I'm gonna go approach, yet you say with that's my problem to just do exactly. Thank you. You save me. No, that's true. It's my right! The fee or is the prompt just go? Do it? I literally was sitting in a booth. Were the couple other people, and I said I gotta say hi to this person and then a minute I've? I felt so scared. I just swilled around, and I said I M so glad it has been the same restaurant with the or something like that and it was will like it. Then a conversation happened yeah, I have a lot of their fear to really I do. I do have a lot of that, but if you just the minute you feel it. So I think we all do consciously or unconsciously. We read energy and worth a try.
Did the energy or or repels us so for attracted to an energy, I usually feel like that's something I should do and so I immediately I just go that that But, as you just said, I will use that fear to just act immediately s youth can. It sounds like you you ve built this scale, this training of yeah. I feel the fear. No that's when I feel that the work of the move is act as opposed to for me when I feel that fear I receive when I'm out of poverty, especially if it's a party of I don't know people, I don't really know or very big court, unquote impressive, important people. I will sometimes find myself moving deeper into my shell yeah and what you learn. Yes, I understand that for sure
but when you, but if you keep axe, if you exercise this as we're talking about you do it, you realize again you sorted demystify human nature. You realize it they're afraid to everyone's afraid, or they were once afraid, and then they relate to that area. but you were saying they tat can go poorly and you can go. Poor sounds like you have to be steeled for that against that possibility. Yeah yeah, I mean I've. I then in my curiosity, conversations will go stay out of my way to meet people that I'm just fascinated with, but I dont know so you agree with it all. One time I met with Edward Teller was the father of the final hydrogen bomb brilliant guy, but he really had no interest in meeting me at all. None and you could find
felt at the second. I looked at him, so that was really incredibly encounter. One member Tom hey, I ran back to the were shooting of just finishing Splash Tom Hanks, whose how could you take that abuse Enron said yet it so. The grating. Where did you get up and leave? I thought, are you kidding? This was fascinating. The fact that he treated me like with a lack of interest for a full straight our I was fastened with that interested me. I learned yet, even when it goes poorly, you can learn. People want. Yes, my worst experiences: I refrain that my get out of the pain of the situation and I just pull pull- is almost like physically pullback go while I'm in a hurry frame this. That was horrible, but why? What did it feel like to be? horrible. What was it that was so horrible and then I refrain knife. I steady it like an odd study, any object. I look at it kind of archaeological ii.
I mean I flew all the way to Russia to Moscow to meet Putin Gift, read the book for that and I've I've had many a mean with Fidel Castro. I d six now foul lunch with with Fidel Castro, and there was a moment I said the stupidest thing. First, he said after three and a half hours. He said: how do you do your hair? There was the only question he asked, but my spiky hair and then I thought why very well confident and then I added something that was just the worse dumbest thing to say, Because a friend of mine said Great Carter, Vanity Fair said like he also produce the nutty, professor, which I thought why I bet a re elevate myself.
So I said I also produced a movie about torture in third world countries called closet land and they all looked to me like a you insane. We're gonna be imprisoned at about one. Second, you will experience torture, a third world country in exactly but you're allowed to say dumb things that people like you can. If they it's all about intentionally, I think movies or bad intention. Albania is the Spirit going in the right direction and the same thing with you. If you're when I meet meet somebody or they meet me, if my spirit is in the right place, my intentions are good. They'll they'll make they'll, forgive you for saying dumb thing, how clarify you ve talked about this a little bit, but what would you say? Your intention is generally going into a curiosity conversation too to be very present. And to be of optimally like create the best date they ve ever had, because you know, like I just
We all know what our best date felt like new meet that girl or in some cases the growing togae whatever, and you just lose track of time. You're like in a state of flow and you're, and yet you know you're biochemistry, is completely aligned in you. Forget it all and becomes you're looking at each other and something happens. It builds to something this kind of Amazing, that's a tall order to create that with a bunch of strangers. I do it. I mean there was a play, my life. I thought that already hadn't had some movie success and felt suggests. I thought I liked the feeling of this better than hit movies, because you're, just you're you're, getting to know somebody Anna deep level, and they you and your sharing part of Europe. all within your soul, our inner truths that you want to surface.
They do, and more of our conversation is on the way after this better help offers licensed professional councillors specialised in a wide array of issues like depression, anxiety and grief. net with their professional councillor in a safe private online environment. It's a truly affordable option and listeners could get ten percent off your first month by going to better help dot com, slash happier fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a councillor. You'll love in your personal chronology you stop, it out by meeting folks who to whom he had to deliver papers and then you moved on to what you had a you- were moving up to the ranks at at a movie, studio and and at various in various positions. In Hollywood, you made it your business to meet a new path.
every day and then what you were established. You launch these curiosity conversations where you just met people from all walks of life, all the time, Sometimes you would launch yearly year long letter writing his Asia at in with them and suits, and now that I've just put that out there for folks, you talk about how thrilling these or for you and important, but but it sounds like it became hobby for lack of a better word or but passionate pursued. That was valuable in and of itself, but it also helped you in your work. it did. I didn't know that I was gonna help me by work when I started doing that. I just tat. I would learn, because I was even I mean I was graduate college and I did well I am a bit of an auto didactic, you know, and I just dumb I learned much from people like expert people
people themselves or just expert at anything? my over driver three months ago The sooner driver, very big guy, really huge guy. Many he was very poor. I didn't initiated conversation I initiated with him and we go into a conversation. I where you from he said Serbia and that led away fleet martial arts which are very interested in. to come back to my house and teach me systemic and he said well. I would do that and I did it with him. It was a completely different form of martial arts. It was incredibly interesting and it's it's. A superpower enter itself this, And he said well, I could- and I said, could I pay you to come back to my house and teach me systemic and he said well, I would Do that and I did it with him. It was a complete
a different form of martial arts. It was incredibly interesting and it's it's. A superpower enter itself. This particular form since being of superpowers. You actually call curiosity, a superpower, and I do, and I can see to benefits at least two curiosity has a practice. One is- and this is right to the subtitle of your first book, which is that it makes your life bigger. The other is that another word you could use for curiosity in the way in which you employ it. The scale of curiosity is empathy and for a storyteller, the above quality to get into other people's lives and see the world from their perspective is immensely valuable immensely. Yes, it's immensely valuable because, as in order for stories are designed to create feelings. You know their maps to feelings, movie stores and television towards our maps to recognition ignition of a feeling
because if a feeling happens then you're gonna, remember it like live events, create feelings. Great stories, e t for me created a feeling in every watched, its holds up yeah good. Their mood out, their mood, elevating- and you remember great songs- do that they just like you, said your kids. Listen the song seventy eighty times so optimally. That's what you want to do. You want to ignite memorable feelings and and like a one on one relationship, you want to create memorable feelings, the other, thing about it, is I mean on a commercial side of it with you? If you read this book, faced, face, you'll, see that with empathy, as you said, in order to sell anything like to sell. Your also on you staying three year or being promoted,
or raising money for anything you have to live in the brain of the person you're talking to you have I you know. Clearly there is evidence that I am yet I've made a hundred movies, there is evidence I can do this well, but is mostly function of theirs: the art from a pitching and telling a story but really the real art form is inhabiting someone else's being knowing what gonna register for them with their interested in with their time. Florence is our reading whether they're getting bored move on. another, create a new who channel you know like the. So. Basically, living in the brain of the buyer is a really good book about this very famous book. The title makes it seem like it's a classic Shockey dumb Self help book, but in fact, is actually a book about empathy
called how to win friends influence, oh yeah, of course, and I ready I reiterate, points a great book. I read it recently. I thought I was gonna hated. It was gonna, be the type of thing that I would mark a fact. It is a well disguised book about inhabiting the viewpoint of other people so that you can work well with them. Yet talk about dealing with your boss. I think empathy for your boss, even if it's a person who you find difficult or disagreeable, makes sense if only from a strategic stamp. Exactly well very, very well said exact. exactly so once you're viewers are listeners, read the modern version and application of it, which is face to face the art of human connection. They should, then go back to putting her friend winfried than includes youthful, so you ve read about. Of course here get me you, you mean I've, read Dale Carnegie Books, he em it's funny ray.
Atta when free, I have focused Carnegie. All of its cultural references are from like the nineteen tens. So it's it's funny book to read, but it actually, the core message holds up his own talk more about the art of human connection, and why that that something we should all tune into. What else is in the book that that embarrassingly read the wrong look for this in recent. What else have as an issue that we should walk away with? Organised opposition boy There are several there's some. stories, but there's one just picked made me think of it, so I had, but I was having lunch with three or four of my most euro through for very good, we accomplish people mark Wahlberg, the actor Jimmy Ivy who created beats by dray, but before that you know he was an engineer for John Lennon. He had bought
Oh Bruce Springsteen, Doktor, Dray endless he's just a brilliant, really avionics, the worthwhile. Yes, I will the documentary and as important as impressively so you have Jimmy. I mean you got Mark Wallbury of David, given whose legend of music legislate as as created multiple music companies and was right in the heartbeat of the seventies and eighties represent everybody really an then bonnet was coming. So I knew bond open Jimmy was bringing bono and I thought wow. I know the other guys here, They are legends unto themselves, but by no really interests me and I'd really like to know understand him in that he's used his superstar Rock STAR power, help human lives in Africa and others he uses his all. The leverage is created by
a rock star it being a prodigy in some ways, and he uses it to help millions of lives, people survive in Africa survive AIDS. and or get through it or co poor. You know but he's saving human lives and I wonder, understand like why he do it how he does it, what does it involve, and so, in order for that to happen, I had to make a point, not too diffuse my into my eye contact, so, instead of like, we often share our eye contact with a group or seventies. Funny, and then you you know: if you want to create unity, you you go we all look at each other and laugh and smile. I just made appointed just really look at him, so oh, that it became a member bulk moment. You know that he would remember and he would also feel like what he has to
say and is worth this long conversation. So if you want somebody to talk for a long time which I did and and explain their story. You don't look at other people, you look at that person sounds like a little thing, but next time you got a party There's gonna, be somebody you really want to meet and talk to don't share your eye contact you're, looking at him or her don't share your eye contact with other people. Why you're doing it? Sorry, I click I'm closing my eyes now. Accession has close my eyes, Montana. Think of of a question how to formulate a question. The question you reference smartphones earlier in this era, where, where all addicted to our phones- and I don't think that's too strong of a word- has the art of human connection to summon the phrase that you share with us earlier. Has it been lost or do
raided and you worry about that. I'm very worried about it, because you know it's not an oil, because kids are always on their phone. Every second and adults are now on their phone when you gotta. What have we done to so many rare? drugs and great ones like Noble Malibu, where you're waiting for the sun to set everyone's looking at their phone. I don't have it So the point, as is the phones are addictive, there is a phones. Are, is it's a game of vacation? You know. Every aspect of it is: do doing like send your answer whenever you're social media is it's it's it's all game of five that which means it makes you want to pick up. All the time makes you want to see who called who texted woods social media's, loving. You are not loving you then you react.
that then you are emotionally diffused all the time. So I think yes, there is no question that we're all magnetize or hypnotized by our and there really the most valuable innovation in the end in our time, but use it independent, of your one on one human connection with other people. It's it's. It's meant to make you better not worse, and it makes you worse. What do we do about that? Put it in your pocket when you ok, when you're going to get together with somebody meet somebody or even if you just walking into a party, it's it's kind of. We could move to walk into a party looking at your phone. It shows that your and secure psych when people are late when they don't have to be laid in a sharp late. They, like all of you know it implies. There were too busy and smart people know that you're not too busy. Did you know that you're in secure
So looking at your cell phone why you're walking into a party- or running into a meeting is it just shows your and secure shows that you're less not more? We haven't talked about meditation yet, but I know you do meditate adieu meditate, so I'm curious to hear about your practice and also wet weather or how it informs the two skills we ve been talking about here today of curiosity, and human connection. Well, it does it does so. Meditation does plays a very big role. I know you know we're just meaning for them. I know my nervous system, I'm a pretty nervous person, so I've I room come off that were. Well thanks, but I run pretty hot. You know in bed, I'm not well. I I am not things make me anxious, are locked up in it and I can. I can direct that energy to positive things or be
productive with it, like thinking, learning and producing ideas, but it makes so meditate The issue is really really help fall before I do anything. That's gonna require one on one concentration like meeting with you today I meditated I didn't do his long. I did a ten minute tm, as opposed to a twenty minute team, but I often before a party. I want to disengage from midnight. What I would normally do if I were to go to a party I'll imagine but the party is gonna, be like who's gonna, be there what it looks like the all that does is It anxiety. It doesn't make me go. I can't wait there, parts that make me go way, but its use, I'm overwrought with I'm nervous or will I deliver or just so meditation coms me, sir,
that I get out of the cycle of pre anticipatory anxiety, which we all have clear social set, a social anxiety and, if you're, a hyper former, you really have that, because you put a hyper farmers, have they pay a high bar unworthy with what they want to achieve. You put a high bar, and would you want to achieve that means you want everything to work. All of the time in life is not that way. I've had a tremendous a success, but I know success is not a straight up trajectory. It drops you fail. and you have to get after to left by the way. Every time anytime, I fail. I always use the tool of tm, always Barbara has helped me quite a bit. Was there on the show? Oh has he? Oh, I just got him on the phone the other day. Yes, Yahoo he's great so
transcendental meditation, you ve been. How long have you been doing I started it- would de facto pirate when I I was getting divorced and when you get the aid which is really traumatized. You start you re, live every thing in your you're stuck and so meditation gets you unstuck on angling from the nonstop matter? Yes, Sir Circular thought or you're living like this you. Why did this happened to me: what could it? What did I do wrong? What are they? right. What did I do wrong why they do that to me and you just keep going through. That's all the past. All we have right now is the gratitude of this moment, and I try to start every one of my days like going why I am so grateful I'm that I'm alive that I have the energy of good health enables me to run up the stairs I get to see you did nothing,
though I mean really it's all those little things that that give you painted power when you're sick. You derive any power when you're physically, you know injured or impaired in some way. You know so just be grateful for which you have as azured as you start your day, we spent in the the bulk of this conversation talking about the skills of curiosity and human connection, but then you just raised two more that a really interesting one is gratitude, and then what I want to dig in right now before we close is on resiliency, because you talked about failure and which interesting notwithstanding your tremendous success, is that you have held. Why? A? U can fail, not only You know you, you get a project made it. It doesn't do well. You also in your first book. Talk a lot about the fact that even successful movie producers deal with being told know all that. Time is a culture of no intercultural. No, so any you also
said that use tm as a tool for failure. Shouldn't you just say more about all of that. Ok, when you fail or when I have failed, which I of course have failed and movies, it primarily movies. When you fail you, you, you bring your self esteem down very low, see feel less. You feel everyone's looking at you, you feel like everyone's going off that dude what a loser or you put bad symbols on yourself. In Hollywood. That may actually be true. People may be saying I find it incredible that yeah, I'm sure they are I'm sure they're here does Mojo he's lost touch any and all those things or they're, just happy that you failed, nay, didn't or they failed a new. They want the company.
A lot of it is? U notes I mean people will complement me by saying which just resentment or envy put in way, compute the same thing there Rudy freaked if they want it fail so when you were when you do when you fail, you tend to beat up on yourself when you fail and you have to get out of those cycles of beating up on yourself. You have to kiss the mere and be grateful you do not laughing, because I think it's funny phrase, but I think a lot about this term of self compassion. I am trying to come up but a better term began little. I don't know for me as a little syrupy but kissing the mirrors, a kind of a funny concept it is. It is to really funny somebody told me to do that, actually to actually kissed them. Yeah he's Jerry, Seinfeld, partner and manager for forever same is George superiors. Haven't you
I like in his late eighties, really vital, still runs the brine. I knew you when you had nothing yet nothing You had no nature yet, no splash! You didn't do any of these things. Now. I've seen you win an Oscar I've. Seen you been up for us is the one enemies, but you know it you never have done. You never looked yourself in the mirror and kissed the mere he's really right, and so I take that would mean to good it's it's a good thing to do, and I am not talking about cockiness. As I hear Santayana cockiness just sing, love yourself appreciate what, whenever any of us of accomplished, be proud of it. In closing, is there anything that I should have asked, but didn't No, I mean, I think you asked. How are you going?
doing all of this and again it's all in this book face to face the art of human connection, because it just there's all these different entry points and things you can gain that are unimaginable and they sort of their embodied in these stories, whether they're worth with Oprah Winfrey, who I met for the very first time and I have asked
but though Oprah because I was again in trouble in the same problem relationship and she said- I never met her and she and gale king. Her came to have breakfast with me. Actually the Beverly, her heart, the Beller Hotel, and this I felt so I felt so much trust with them. I felt they had such open hearts to me that me shared my issue and that would it wasn't she said Brian. If you really want to know. I said I do said: betrayal is almost impossible to get over and I thought she gave her best advice and I moved on those helpful
So in closing just I do this thing called the plug zone. The mentioned the face to face the previous book was a curious mind. Are there If we want to learn more about you, are there other places to do so on the internet, social media? How can we get our brain greater fix? you can, while there's other things you watch bent television, social Medium go to my interim is just Brian Grazer, their funny food videos, because I love food and so That's funny or you just look me up. Google me and say brain where's your news nurse and to see a lot of interesting you'll see a lot of interesting fun things. If I recommend one of your movies. That was your favorite, that we should all watch. What would it be?
a beautiful mind, because it's about how we look at people all day, long and specifically, a beautiful mine, is about helping these stigmatized mental disability. So whether you look at somebody that has a very minor disability or some of the extremists, schizophrenia, which was John NASH, who won the Nobel Prize, in economics, you know it's just it's looking people and in saying wow, I'm not gonna, think less of them, I'm not gonna stigmatize them. So I think, in its very exciting movie, like it's really really unpredictable, and that came that movie came from a face to face human connection with a woman that was tortured and Chile NAM, Veronica, deny gray and big. I met her twenty years before a beautiful mine, I was able to like make this magnificent, Oscar winning film. I met this one woman twenty years before that? How did that help
because I asked her, how did you survive and she told me her survival system? and her survival system was to live in an alternate reality, so while she was being tortured, she lit Chris entirely another story in the same way, a schizophrenia mine works in multiple stories. Now they do it involuntarily. She voluntarily created a story so that she can endure this. Torture and unanimously that her too close and then I may get that I made a movie about her as well. I have one other quick, though, can I give you one collective absolute, your show, but it made me think this one thing: ok, I had this up a producing deal at try star pictures and I was paid, aid a smaller amount of money, call it acts he and and what happened is then all of a sudden, this movie that I was working on called splash, came out and was successful
I was getting paid the smaller amount of money from the Tri STAR Company- Somebody said to me: explain: the boss, who I was scared of it literally we're all scared of our boss a little bed critically. When you ask for more money, I said he said tell him that your reality is changed and I thought well interesting, what does that mean? Is it well you're? current realities. You ve proved to be more and more inspired, more brilliant guy, I said, but he I'm stuck in this contract, though I see said, have the courage looking straight in the eye and say it Tom, I said in a nice way said: look I wanna get. I asked for seven times x. I said I want to get this because look. There's real evidence that I've earned it and that my realities change a much more valuable to you. and into the to our report the reality of this world. He gave it to me.
The letter you gotta got either way, but it was cool of him any anyway. He did that give or have. I think, I think, about conversations I've had with my wife and a lot of successful females. I know but impostor syndrome that ever happened for you know it does it in fact the opposite. When Rawdon I won Oscars run? Our run out and I would ask her beautiful mind. He said. Oh, my god, you think they'll never find this out were waiting to go, see three hundred journalists and, I said, are you kidding, find his out work work smartest guys in the business of really mad dog of workers in the mirror. I just thought why we ve been doing this a while. We have some trial and error behind us, like who else People get as were the guy's right. So that's not. I don't have exhausted us another bake puffing yourself up. That's is not related point where you had done the work. I've done
the way over the ten thousand hours. Yes was thank you for spending, one of those ten thousand with us. I really appreciate it was. It was a pleasure. Thank you thanks very much poetic, big thanks to bring greater that was fun. Let's this voice, Nels here's number one again here where's the wondering I just finished. Reading pole, Lotta AGRICOLA read both of his books twice a redhead prevent happier meditation fidgety sceptics, you ve had a lot. I guess one a couple of your you now favorite book recommendations like a good two or three to start. I know at one point you mention I'd like Britain into the bargain reading. One of SAM Harris, I believe, is book a couple times, so you could tell me which book that end and then maybe a couple other to follow that line, and I would really appreciate it. I am like I said, a mood of the pipe Casper really enjoying it gets
Thank you very much. You have a good day here. I'll give you four books. This list is by no means exhaustive. I think, there's a longer we're gonna put a link in the show notes is a page on the ten percent, a website that has a longer list of books, in fact also there's a list of books. I recommend, I think, in the appendix of meditation for fidgety sceptics, but here for books. One is why Buddhism is true by Robert right. It say he's a science writer and it's a really interesting, take For me, a secular person who is in no wearing robes is very much in the world this very much is very sceptical. It's a great deep dive into why Buddhism had such an impact on him. Second Buddhism, without beliefs by Stephen, Ashley S, Stephen, is, is a little different in that he, while he's a very sceptical dude comes
a buddhist background was a monk in two different traditions. I believe, by the way I think Steve is going to come on the podcast and then I said I think I saw his name on our schedule next couple months, he's fascinating But it is a slim volume that Strip away all of the metaphysical claims from Buddhism and really talks about how you can practise Buddhism without having to believe in things that that you can muster the faith in three same Harris were an excellent book is written many excellent books, but this month waking up and he has an app by the same name: full disclosure he's a friend and the book really is an excellent and science based reason based. case for working with the mind and SAM has a lot of experience on the cushion unit has been studying meditate
for years and years and years, and also, of course, Neuroscience moral philosophy and many other things and then forth. The book. That I read that really got me into the really convinced me to take a deep dive into Buddhism and meditation is going to pieces without falling apart by Doktor Mark Epstein he's written many books, beautiful books about he's a psychiatrist has written a bunch of books. What the overlap between I say colleges and Buddhism, and this is the first one. I writing. I wrote about it in my first book having read that book and what an impact it had on me. So there are four just click here: but there are many many other great books by people like share in Salzburg and Joseph Goldstein, etc, and Marv former and and future guests on this podcast. I can go on and on, but those are forty get started and you can also look at the
In our show notes. The naked will put a link to a longer list in their thanks to that question. Here was now number two. I damn my name is: go when I've been doing the medication. After about six very enjoyable, I find myself using the medication Wyndham I'm driving or walking, and I'm just getting ready. I don't I myself during the actual reading in a medication, I should say on the cushion, that's something I should strive for all your getting quite a bit out of the Euro activity, part of meditation and focusing and
yeah, but I'm wondering if given the for complete by getting to the cushion thanks for your response to great question and you make a recommendation that I'm gonna do it gingerly, because I think you should be. I think you should savor the fact that you are doing anything at all and that you are getting something out of it so that that's all right. And I don't want wanna brush by that too hastily and I would also say that if that's all you do forever then you're. It seems to me like you, are better off than you were before, and you can continue to grow in in these practices of you integrating mindfulness into everyday life.
That said, I mean in a perfect world. I would have you doing a few minutes a day or daily issue of formal, seated meditation or even formal, walking meditation, as opposed to just were walking around the world. There is a kind of meditation were you to formal walkest supersede per super slow, walking meditation, which is not something, how they want to do on a busy city street unless you're willing to have people. Look at your funny, the formal meditation It turbocharging everything else, because your own, doing that you're only Generating your capacity for mindfulness in a very an end or any other scale, mindfulness compassion focus. There are many skills that were practising in meditation and in my experience the the formal seated practice terms,
charges, the endeavour of bringing mindfulness or any of these other qualities in to daily life. I dont think this needs to be some long, Minos and death March thing here that I am suggesting. I think it's just about finding. It all cracks and crevices in your day where you can fitted in maybe try before bed may be right. After you stretch after exercising maybe its first thing after you wake up in the morning. There are lots of little. Maybe it's the five minutes that you would otherwise spend scrolling, Instagram and feeling insufficient, etc, etc. Experiment with them give it a shot again. I want to stress I'm not wagging laughing right. You you're you're, doing great from what I can tell, but this may help you do even better by supporting practice from which you already extracting so much benefit witches.
being more awake in your daily life. I think a few minutes of dedicated for malpractice might make that even more powerful alright, for we go just want to thank everybody, who's involved in putting together this show Ryan Kesler Samuel. Grace Livingston, MIKE Debussy Tiffany over hundreds and Lorn Hartogs. These folks do a ton of work behind the scenes to make this all possible, and I'm very grateful very grateful also to our eyes cast insiders who every week give us is hundreds of people give us head back every we can really informs the way we do our work and, of course, thankful to you for just listening, it's a big deal. So if you want to do us allergy rate us mendous right about us on social media share in episode with somebody love that really helps if the word out in and make our audiences even bigger and our future even brighter? Ok enough nagging and thanking for me I'll see you next week
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