For maybe see. This is a ten percent. Have your podcast dinner there. I've said this before, but it bears repeating to the extent that I know what I'm doing on the show. My goal has been to give you a real mix of guests. Sometimes we have deep into the pool meditation teachers and then some time we have just really interesting people from all walks of life, celebrities, athlete scientists etc, who have amazing stories in meditation practices of their own? Our next guest is from an industry where you wouldn't imaginary a whole lot of meditation video games. I will admit my guests stares at me wearily that the- and I say this at the risk of alienating- might get my guests cork. Instead. See that I know almost nothing about video games. I did love Ms Pack, man and frog or when I was a kid in the eighties

what I do know about the video game. Industry, though, is that is incredibly lucrative and a hugely influential segment of the entertainment industry. For example, when my guest talked about my book on his podcast recently, I heard about it on twitter for an unborn. The number of people whose name is Dan Richert he's senior editor at giant bomb, which is an enormously popular videogame website and Dan has written a book called anxiety as an ally. How I turned a worried mind into my best friend is really raw memoir of dance struggles with panic, attacks and anxiety, of which I can relate to viscerally. Of course, then he also touch my meditations really helped. Sudan thanks accompaniment, absolutely really mattered. Thank you. They have one did the panic and anxiety start and how bad was it. I think there was probably always an element of social anxiety growing, impose those kinds of how the outsider weird caters obsessed with video games and professional wrestling, and I never really jailed

other the kids, my school there really sports in every things. I was socially anxious, but there is never pack attacks and I never even knew what the term was or what that felt like this one was, I was eighteen, is went to break from my first, so first Mr College saying gangs in New York so would have been like New year's day. Two thousand three, I believe- and near the movie. Superman movies, like three hours long ended up in the middle of the road. A lot of people here which with anxiety, knows that can be a major trade of that and I just started feeling this unexplainable ledges, this ominous sense of dread wash over me again anyone who, as anxiety knows that feeling, but I had no what that was. And so all I know is it like. I had to get out of the theatre immediately as originally people. I just needed to go decompress unjust figure. What the hell is going on with me, so I sat in the back Rome had I dunno I was dying. Nobody would call my want one, but I left looked at once from the internet could really find anything. Did all Adam Self Diagnosis staff were to go. I've got this disease and businessmen that world untrue

A week later I saw some Lord of the rings movie. There was the second one and exact same thing, and so supercomputer, because it's only having in movie theaters for while and I'd googling, googling, googling and nothing made sense. I started going to doctors and all the tests thyroid test blood tests. All this stuff and everything Completing our the other room next to the emergency room, where a thought for sure have a heart attack and no everything was fine and eventually I learned like one doktor said like: oh, you probably have panic disorder, and I actually had like a term that I could google I could look up and why I can, if not a surly great to just Looking up on the internet and look at message boards about conditions and hearing people that are professionals talk about it, but it was good to be able to see this thing that other people had to go to message boards and have people describe similar experiences that I added it felt like. It wasn't just this weird diagnosis.

Got on just me. I felt like I was part of a larger thing into that helped buddy. Now it's not like you get a diagnosis and adjust goes way now. So you it's been a long, long path of seeing what were seeing, what doesn't, but it wasn't just pack disorder. You are also den diagnosed with generalised anxiety, yeah. That diagnosed came a little bit later because it started with just the situational minimum. The theatre, I can't get out an airplane types of panic, tax and the I started: haven't things in college, where it would just be normal day at the sitting around playing video games or watch a movie and I'm very stressful situations, and I would just have this underlying hum of anxiety all the time and that felt very different to me, and I got the diagnosis for so yeah, it's fun combination, so I went around having another full panic tax back then I have to worry about like oh I'm, just gonna have this overwhelming sense of duty all day, how long is this going to last and it's a lot of figuring out what works for him. What doesn't have bad did he get at its worst

boy. I remember in college. When I went to class, they would do that call a lab times it was these, be classed as three four hundred people and not be exaggerated, I gotta these big auditorium classes and they you going down in and by the heads of State University at university, Do I look like I say back a u k yet, and so we had to be working now. Listen as it got closer to me to an aim. Ah, I will just feel it start can arise. I'd feel the heartbeat sir, to raise my breath. Get shallow and I would always envision myself. Sprinting out of the room is having to get out of there. So it is around that period reckon even say here. That's all I had to do as they were telling me to say here No one's going to be looking at me, I didn't have to deliver on anything, but I couldn't handle it and around the same time I work at the call center and they would have a few introductions when we hired new people, like

I've ever shift which stand out and be like. Oh I'm dead, I'm a junior and I'm from here in my favorite. Whatever is blank. And I couldn't do that. I had to talk to my boss and be ok. I don't know what's going on here. I just can't do it. I do, Sir, in late everyday, whenever there is a new higher there be like a two week period where I just had to come in thirty minutes late, so skipped introduction, part which I found really helpful, talking to bosses about something back as cuz as people know that you ve got something like this, then it If you have to leave a room or something I fear seeming quiet, they'll know like Ok, you told me about this. This is exciting thing, not just like always being weird or white of you run out of this room. Yet one of the things you talk by the book as consistently when you present your issue, issues to people to whom you need to report like bosses are professors or whatever everybody's, incredibly understanding and that's really cool. But I will say, having had an unrepentant panic attacked myself, it is virtually empty

First of all, to explain what it's like to somebody who has not had a panther. Yes, indeed, that is part of the reason I wanted to write. That book is because what it is impossible to have you never had a pang attack. He kicked. People tend to see like I just show out what you worried about its well known its you don't know what this feels like you know the logic, part of my brain knows that I'm not in danger. I now I don't need to activate this fight or flight thing, so books liking. I think yours for sure, like you, you describing when I read here is new targets are being on the air beyond near a lot. I do live appearances and things, and those are the major figures pack tax for me. So I wanted to describe that feeling. You know what it was like when I had my first panic. What it was like going forward in book is not how to and how to get better necessarily with I'm no expert whatsoever. But I wanted to explain what it was. Like Somebody had anxiety, especially like guys. My demographic gamers, that there is not talk about stuff like this necessarily hens:

There really is endemic made their outliers. Obviously, maybe maybe rage is acceptable, decried right. The aid it's not really a community there's some places online. Some communities where they talk very openly about the stuff, sometimes overseer by and large. I think people don't talk about somebody videogame. In exactly I mean I was interested to listen to the extra you sent me to podcast, where you have talked about meditation in my book. Everything and like everything leading up to it, was completely indecipherable, and then everything that followed was completely indecipherable me. Then there was like this really forthright discussion. About your emotions and panic and meditation, one of your colleagues had been on a silent, meditation retreat and it was really interesting because easily I loved hearing it from I'm in my whole purpose in life in many ways, is to get meditation accepted in different corners of the culture into here.

He's like dyed in the wool videogame guys talk about this stuff with just haven't. I can well imagine you didn't nourishment of good because well what people in the meditation issued video game world may not talk about this stuff. Everybody has emotions: oh yeah yeah, either. You are unaware of them and they control you or your aware of them and can have some magnitude of of control over them. Yeah in being able type talk that on the pod case was huge, because I relish any chance to talk about that. One of the great things better podcast. We embraced him, in Semi will spend in our talk about fast food or whatever. It is not. This is video game news thing all the time it's three hours, long every week a lot of issues like what do you do this weekend and that's? Why drew my colleague tagline that's out of meditation, and ass soon ass. I saw that I saw my aunt because I don't wanna be that guy to get from a soap box interested she warned met. Asian and ever conversation, but I well do it's on the table. Let's talk about this and we talked for so long about it. After all, even though my basic sorry I just talk

So much about that. I just get really excited when I get a chance to talk about it, but the feedback on that was incredible. I had assumed an army of two weeks after that, real it. Yet I couldn't believe it then was really a wake up call for me, and I know I have a friend whose I met a guy recently. You actually owns a very the companies who have some sense of of the sheer. Our I had to discuss because if any of your friends listen, they're gonna hate me knowing anything, but but I have a sense of the sheer power of the industry and as a cultural force and ended up as as a financial force, but but just that that was a real, powerful illustration to listen. You guys talk about it in the deceived show up in my my twitter feed their there's a ton of passion and that commuted for video games, that I think is a little more intense than you see a lot of time and in movies or other elements of pop culture. I people see it as an identity, a lot of times but people that's what I am. I am a gamer and I don't know business we helping to attach your entire identity to one thing like I am just a guy that plays video games, but there

a lot of people out there like that in they have been able to examine and maybe introduce them suddenly meditation that they wouldn't seek out necessarily that that suddenly be grave doing us. Why, like be able to talk well on something like this here, ok was so sweet. Speaking of you. Here you are sitting here talking to me, like full sentences have a good time. Laughin smile and I've listened. You on the pie cast doing the same thing as you describe in your book, and you just made mention of just come. Come, let us go, you actually do public appearance it. How did you get from being unable to say the word here in a university classroom to being a public figure. I think it's because I forced myself to whenever something did scare me like the idea. During a public appearance or the idea of going to pod cast. I knew then there road is bad. If you say hey, one of the UN's podcast, because I'm nervous because it was like ok, Hindu, can't do nervous about that and then would have

to go. If you have a panic check on the highway economic drive on the highway in your world, get smaller and smaller any box yourself and if you go down that route, I dont want become Igor Phobic, so the more some scared me, the more. I always attacked it. What another podcast or video thing when I started the giant bomb to join bundle this thing, where we do all these conventions and we very passionate fan base. Becomes out. You know a fool around with a thousand two thousand people, and others several times a year and mild a game in former we wouldn't do any public appearances, another cause a magazine negative. That was more strictly I'm just writing. You know I pushed a lot for like video content, more personality stuff. They were really have an incitement to drive on, and I knew that they did. These live appearances in nothing terrified me more than the idea of doing this. You know I couldn't say here: I dropped out. Passes. When I heard there can be presentations, and so I realize I don't wanna go down that route, so I told my boss right when I got hired. I said He time we're doing a public thing. Anytime. Worried me in front of a crowd. Please put me on the panel because that that's I wanna get over

and that is how you get over the service is face it head on. Each time you do it, it becomes less scary and I still have it. I saw how things I've gotta right now you never. So I don't ever said no to something, because the idea of it has made me anxious whether restaurant the plane arguing for a two thousand people are doing upon literally jumping out of seven times. Well here myself to animal itself. I scarcely me, but you have that's why I did it. So I think that incredibly brave and he's really important, because there are a lot of people with anxiety and panic disorder myself among them. Who do make their world smaller. You know I mean I could have decided, it would be easier route would have been to it not going television again after I freaked out in front of her five people, but because it is a natural thing? You know it's a natural thing and actually just ask you just for a little bit of advice because

I have made my world smaller and a few ways because of panic disorder. For example, I can't get an MRI programme claustrophobic, I can't even get an open mri, because even that scares me too much and I don't know, Actually the shoulder injury eyes untreated, because I can't get in the stupid mri. So what would you say that I should do, I have the exact same thing. I got an mri about a year and a half ago and I never had one I had heard about them. I had heard the people no, you know ward, typically anxious people freaking out, and there has relevance bad haven't. I hate this, but I just its bite the bullet, and then you have to do it, no matter how much it scares you panic just after the panic yeah. You know when I asked I always ask an obnoxious motto: questions before anything like this: it's ok, so I need to get out of here. What are to squeeze the subtle bubble thing? Ok, so you'll know. So if I squeeze it you'll get me a real, quick loco here Toby. I like, I asked so many questions and ensure the hell out of people a lot of time but I just want to make sure that I know what I'm getting into, but I'll never say. No, I made might over ass people and

about stuff like that, but I got in there and, I wouldn't say full blown panting tack, but it's a lie. Hold your breath like hold your breath and all that it is extremely uncomfortable for, while we just do it, he just either have to like. Two cliche thing, Sado just do it or whatever, but that's kind of Ben. However, all these things is just walk out there. I can tell you in terms of the night behind occurred, so I'm also a person manager independent circus, what he asked independent certifying, like I'm like a bad guy manager for four attacked, came in California and per wrestling like this isn't about No. I was now caressing manager wrote a book and I was a couple years ago yet so so like my musical head and I ve come out of a curtain. Fog machine also have to be this carriage artery bag. I get this. I've got a whole crowd of people to hate me. That's why? a job, and I do this stuff. You sound like I'm, some, whether mean old Vetture, whatever I've been doing this, for you know under a year, but typepad anxiety, like I'm, standing behind a curtain waiting for my music to head to come out.

Make everyone booby. I can't area many times I've been sitting back their pacing back and forth. Behind the curtain, cigar gotta get a sky cyclist. I knew it, the music heads and then you just have to tell your brain to shut up. Your legs are working, you can walk out, there go do it, and then I find it's always just. Territorial anxiety, the second I walk out from the current or the second I sit down, and start talking front of microphone. You kind of Europe step what you're doing you can forget about all that, that mental terror? Oh, what am I to run our? What if I forgot my lines? What do I do this once you're out there you just go and instinct after the break aegis, elaborate on what do you think it's doing for you in ice happening tax cuts, somewhere in the dentist at one point is going a cavity filled and I had to leave halfway through because I had a pancake, but now I got a dentist with no problem. After this, there is a new answer for people in need of serious pain, relief, lighter gear, has created a one of a kind pain, relief, patch the blocks pain for up to eight hours with the old.

A non water based. Lighted came back on the market, light of care uses patent pending technology to desensitize aggravated nerves for an odour, free, ultra, flexible dry and light solution to pain. The latter care pay batch when the makers of blue EMU for long lasting relief, you can wear available at sea vs. How did you first get introduced meditation? When did it so I got introduced to actually about five months before my first panic back. There is one a first class. I took a college at it like a pre Freshman year, hey, learn the campus type thing and too classes were won by two classes. Was psychology went to one basic and level thing. I had never given any thought to meditation whatsoever. In fact, Kenneth the way my that is, I was gonna, raises the very much like anything, and even had a whiff of new agencies. Do it well, the ogre meditation there. You know the more extreme crystals all asked of it. Just now that boy Let's grab that you know that for heavy, that's that's idiots death, and so

this kind of was raised with this like major light did you are sceptical about the type of stuff I was kind of way with the full on like hey this stuff is bad light. You know what I regard as total antagonism, yet and so I had never given any serious thought meditation whatsoever and I remember my teacher, the sky buddy, I'm leavin trying to come. Tax figure, our guy. I want to thank him. I just I don't know how to look at a noise last name, but he said he's. I wanta Gazprom meditation. This is something that act. It stresses enough. If you do this for an hour, every day it will change your life and our thing like an hour day. That's insane! time to do an hour day of just sitting there than you, give us an example. So we had to do ten minutes of guided invitation and class I'll shut our eyes he came, through it. You know he was not some programme annotation guy, but the basics. Follow you. As you know, it scan types tat. No one thoughts coming up things per million times, and even after ten minutes. I owe my eyes- and I was caught taken back by man this this

really really good, and I wasn't thinking of it as a anxiety early thanks. I didn't really having society that point, but I member that that feeling a gave me after the ten minutes. What was the feeling it just a common stillness. Clarity that I dont think I had ever before I have always been very much that kind multitask a million things at once. You know a growing up, just always millions in the computer over here I got Letterman on tv overhear playing games. You know a million things at once. My head, just bouncing around, I can ever sleep and for once I felt like I just had a clear mind. I just felt like after ten minutes. Ok, I can just focus on something and there was a really profound feeling and then later on, once a sort of struggling with anxiety, I saw people recommend meditation IRA. Like oh yeah thing, but he do like that felt really good. I could see how that could help and I do recognise too. Campus, I gotta hold the teacher and we sort of meeting, and I start asking questions about another thing

and I got more into it, but are still just doing my ten minutes today, but even that helped tremendously. And it wasn't until the last few years now mom pollution caused two hours a day, now? Woe and it makes a huge difference. Okay, so milling questions. What kind of meditation you do what you practice, mindfulness so Gimme the nuts and bolts. When you sit down. What do you do? I believe you know. If I M our home, we now get imitation cushion or pillow. You know I said on that. S leg I mean I don't do alms or the enchanter anything like that, it's mainly following them a lot of times up on white noise, no rain sound effects whenever beat stuff. Sometimes like you, I was at a late hour so this weekend in there's a big forest. I just did that, They say things going on in the forest meditating for an hour, but the thought of there are so usually I'm in my bedroom sitting on a pillow following the breath and thoughts command. Now I'm just gonna, let him go under then only you. I do

work. Every day we have acquired room on the fifth floor, which is a very San Francisco thing. It's it's, this room, it's kind of a sensibly for meditation but no one user, for that. Everyone's goes on there to get on the phone and take Napster whenever a, but I actually sit, and they have these really high, backed chairs where you sit there and no one can really see and you sit crossing gotta get work in our early, follow the breath, otherwise hand stuff, and I started a head her feet and work through and notice. Sensations itches things like that, creates it's about his basic, to get you know, I dont really attach any spirituality to it or anything and view of the way have you know? If I go on a ten mile run, you know my cardio is that I'm going to I'm going to feel better. My cardio will be better. If I do an hour nation. I just feel less anxious throughout the day, and I can sleep at night. How did you learn how to do it is a reserve, do do go on retreat. Is there a teacher you have relationship with? you know outsiders talking about teacher way early on its mainly just spend a lot of reading you, your book, Ashley before your book

did read the power of now and reading here. Yeah and reading your description of that it was one huh, percent. My experience with that were there would be these moments of dislike wow. I think he's really onto something here and then these moments of like what the hell is this guy talking about like this, doesn't make He says he sounds like a lunatic and but the other within all that life lunacy in that book, There were some moments like ok yeah. He makes some really good points, and then I read your book. Afterwards and through yours I s ordering books by Sharon, Salzburg and Mark Epstein and John composition. I read out wherever you go there, your area three times a year, yet great numbers rearing renown, sill of his ear, the ito, it's funny you're a bit of it to use a fancy word. Otto died act, somebody who taught himself but you're you're reading to write books him, but by which I do not mean my book. My book is, moreover, a store where good book. Thank you, but I mean it's more of it. It's like pity, Barnum as compared to what you get from sharing in Marseilles

I see myself as a gateway drug rightly I'll, get about helpful know what they're talking to him. You mentioned. I think when you're talking the Dalai Lama, that you know you were in your, like infancy, have of your meditation even after, like ten years, if you're an infant- in this world I'm a fierce seen. I'm still learning the step. He I've. U can introduce people that world. I think that our full yet well. Thank you. So, just a bit back your practice like you're, it really interesting as it seems like you, ve been able to really take it pretty far without you know, joining some grew poor or like signing up the teacher. Anything like that, you're just really reading good books- and I think it's interesting. Do you keep because I feel I see this in my own life going back to the books because to be reminded. Yes, if you go to long without doing edited you whose those those little reminders of all right- that's why I'm doing this. That's why I need to stay diligent about this, I think the books are really good way associated commuting, Ivan, commute to and from work every day I can read and driving

This is a great daily reminder of why this is important and why I do it, because it's easy when you're I talk about this alliance, like it's easy when you're doing your practice, for it to feel stupid and pointless, but too, to read a book by John Alexander Share in Salzburg, remark, Epstein and yet reminded of the intellectual infrastructure of the thing like, oh right as just as you said. This is why it is important that this is where I'm heading with this ain't. You mentioned a few of the benefits, but gauges elaborate on what are you? Think it's doing for you. This m, this dosage of meditation, is pretty high. I am able to disconnect control my thoughts in a way that I think people meditate and haven't done it don't really understand. Its ramifications is not just like hey. I get more com, it's being control your mind and situations that that our unsurprising sometimes like good examples, hadn't seen ice a penny text constantly in the tent at one point I was getting a cavity filled and I had to leave halfway through exactly how to panic tat. They get me a shot of

you never pronounce it ever never and whenever I ended in telling Mr Harpy faster. So that was the Novocaine or whatever am was being as are all gotta have a panic jack, and I just like I can't do this data put a very temporary feelings. I walked round with the whole of my tooth for a long time But now I gotta dentist with no problem. You know I used to dread it, but we're meditation and the skills of learn through that I've learned that when you hear a sound or something like enough, I hear the sound of a drill. You tend to associated with past experiences, and so it reminds me I like oh that that real reminds me of the time that that haven't, I have ever had panicked. I go that's totally gonna happen again here. Is that happen before, and all that shit it goes on because you associate that sound or sitting in that chair with a bad experience and meditate like now that I took so much I'm able to dissociate from that and dislike I can recognise it as that's a sound I'm not pain right now, I'm sitting in a chair, I'm sitting chair like I know, I'm a fool So I know that drills about coming to my mouth and drilling in my tooth, but I know what I mean.

Gonna, make it worse by bracing, myself and thinking about all the bad things that have happened before I'm gonna be the present and deal with it right now sounds like textbook applications. Mindfulness to me. Do you given what I'm here for you? It is a real, serve dedication to this practice and or and from what I can tell a real understanding to do. You think about doing more, like going off on retreats or given that you are every just go in there. So many amazing teachers there may be having a relationship with the teachers yeah. I have and I've looked up resources and I know Blue in San Francisco. There are more than most major cities in I've gone to some have done some group classes and things like that in some of the insight ass up inside and I find a comfort everyone, but I do better when I'm just on my own. Do my own thing: is it because the other people there were no thank you I miss her. All the other people know it's not that I don't necessarily bothered by that. The particular thing

There is a lot of a keen to see a lot of traffic and a car. We add a red light right outside in a blaring music amino through meditation. You should be able to you, know, just kind of separate that, but considering just do it at home and not have to get on to buses to go to a place, and I might as well do it at home. The only answer us our unity oh, I can say as far as the retreats of that very much interest me like associating extra, and so he did a week long, one or eight or ten day and ten days, our from you, that's of North Rhine, county yeah you're at rock right right. Yes, it can get past the name, the eye yeah, that's incredibly, I seem to me it's just the logistics of that he now I live in San Francisco is an expensive city. I would need to take a lot of time off work

The logistics are difficult, but at some point, when it makes sense, I will certainly do a retreat or even a shorter one, like that before they retreated MC caully went on the thing I can say I interrupt you. It's just that indices unsolicited vice, which you should feel to reject, feel free to reject the eighty two. It was a couple years into my practice before I actually struck up a relationship with a teacher, and I found that that up to my game exponentially really, oh my teachers, this guy Joseph Goldstein Right, was in prison. I broke in, and it's not that intense, like of who I see him either get on the phone, or I see him every couple months. I tell him what got on my practice and he gets me out of rights or or pushes mean directions that I wouldn't have thought of, and that kind of coaching is really what it is. It is really very, very interest

especially, if you ever look at a lie. Respect for Joseph right, we do have some formal relationship were empower. Eureka daddy's, just like a really smart guy, we're friends, and- and this is a bit you know most teach you sell some super expensive thing- If you live in a city where their teachers, you can do this in its not miss out some crate. Is it like an hour like therapy session based? We were going to discuss the practice, which is not a therapy session in that I'm not bring in my problems. Damn right isn't, as will talk about what's going on in my life, but you I have a shrink where we go. We talk about my I don't go. This is maybe aside of complacency on my end, but I dont go that often he would want to help me. Stop to drugs and things like that, but also every time I do go. I these awesome unease, honey and I really like seeing him, but but when I go to him, it's like we talk about the emotional component.

Things going on in my life, with my shrink, with my meditation teacher. It's really like the nuts and bolts of your practice. What are you literally doing when you sit down what it? What's the first thing you do a: how long can you stay with the brass? What do you? What do you? What do you do when you? What is that moment like when you wake up from distract are there may be other techniques you? You could be using like mental, noting how things like that in a really just open your eyes, two possibilities, you might not a thought of, and you may describe things there actually like little ruts or cul de sac, that you ve gotten yourself into that you're, not even aware of, and a teacher complaint that out, you and say hey

look you're doing this May next time. That happened is try this just through the way you're describing perhaps he can see what's going inside your head, so you're just tell him be by be what you're doing it all the vizir so many variables here when I variables is the quality of your reporting, rightly when accurate historian of your own practice and that that is a big deal nedda variables, the quality of the teacher, unlike our are you clicking with them, and teachers often have their own, biases because they know a worse for them right now. Obviously, if you get a lot of you to really experienced teacher like Joseph he's had thousands of students, so he is a pretty good sense of like types of mines, so he doesn't just recommend which worked for him. He knows he can. I think he s like a taxonomy in his own mind of he can put you in a book and say well other people like you. This has worked or just

Try this one of Joseph things is he's play around I'll. Give you a bunch of options, triumph see what works are currently. The test is, is, is your mind settling are you getting focused and if its not working, if, if it conjuring up doubt, are things like that, then maybe that's. The technique for you, that's an extremely helpful to get a kind of a personalized coaching. My back is even taken advice from when I can, reforms, gold scene or the girl during a retreat, but is when you are having trouble swat. Are your swung too much yet? And I you you talked it aware that if that was Joseph okay and he told you just ok, you're trying to murmuring exactly that was when you're deserved odor thinking more suited to those as high, so their very nature too. I owe it to Joseph complained about the swallowing it he said. Don't worry about it, ok it nowhere, but then there is another time later where I, which is completely freaking out and wanted to give up and went, and that was this woman's spring wash

rain spread by the way is basis. Averages going, you could totally go worthier and- and even though I make fun of her in the book actually spend time with a recent in San Francisco she's, incredibly cool erlich- that she is incredibly cool. I really really have an enormous amount of affection for other, so if you are looking for a teacher actually spring comes to mind now, that's another guy in San Francisco name or in sulphur S, o f, you are, he teaches on the ten percent happier app, although we would like a spring on their two at some point, but they're both basis have just go to tell people that mean anybody listening to this here, go their websites and reach out to them. Meditation teaching is not an historically has not been, and sadly is not right. Now you know a hugely remunerative profession right and so I've ever. I think all of these people are looking for students. Ok, if I they actually wolden Tully. Looking about when I get back in town is even that. Little advice of your trying too hard. I think about that allowed, even though that wasn't personally direct

towards me in the way I meditate but I'll catch myself getting for traded. Like it'll, be thirty minutes into a session. We think like I've, just been elsewhere mentally this entire time, like, I don't think I'm way, that thirty minutes, but it's like have. I could have in doing so much better. Now can be myself about it. For the next thirty minutes but in our mind, seven. Ok, I'm thinking about this too much I'm trying to her like just just sit here. That's all you gotta! Do here so you ever get to wrapped up in my Father Propaganda Father breath now like it doesn't really work. So I always

think about advice. The Joseph told you man, I have the same problem, which is that I do exactly what you just said and I am in, and I am not a teacher, so I just want to make sure that every listen to this and yourself included, doesn't take what I say is gospel, but one of the things that I hear from features a lot is that and is really counter intuitive for people like us, but you need to refrain that the moment of waking up from a moment, usually, I think a lot of us treated as a moment of self laceration itself. Judgment of, like oh my god, I've been thinking about lunch for the last three years you need to refrain that to a win, because you are waking up right there. That is, the practice in oil. Prices is realising when your thoughts are growing astray and revert back on track, so yeah, but that's a good way to fragment. So reaffirming that is a wine is a key issue, is a radical shift. I can't say I'm good at what I've noticed is that what's happening, my practices I wake up, I have the moment of then I can't help a reflexive moment

of judgment or whatever, and then I made a conscious choice back o dude welcome back there, and even if you work at heart is when you have to do it a thousand times very quickly. It can be a little wearing, but I have the sense that the art of the practices or one of the art of the practices really getting to the place where every time you make of it cool yeah, I mean it's not realistic. To expect that every time you sit down for an hour or two minutes or anything that, like those reserves right through just followed the bread for an hour like that's, not how works and like I'm, no extra, but I can imagine even like

season, longtime meditated, I doubt it every time it just a hundred percent success rate. My mark have seen, has doktor Mark Epstein, whose Greece, guesses by gas, has written many many excellent books about politician. He has a great story about sitting in meditation with Joseph Goldstein, whose my teacher annals of Marks teacher in and they were sitting doing meditation in at the end of the session. They opened their eyes and Joseph looked at market said the mind has no pride great expression Hannah, and that is true, and I am Jos have been gradually for decades it that boy, yes, you're, always gonna get lost in use. The word is a very easy key phrase. You said exe yeah. Expectations are poison for your meditation practice and I think that's what dissuades alot of people when they first start is they expect like? Ok, I'm in Sudan. Do this thing for ten or fifteen minutes, and if I follow my breath that's what I'm supposed to feel really go to write afterwards, and then they do well, nothing like that. They expect some.

Good thing, and that is not going to happen necessary can happen. If you do have ten years, it's some superpower, so yeah yeah. I think it this way. A lot of people- and I think you know, really see the benefits until you stick with it for a while and don't let those expectations and lack of meeting them dissuaded Amen a share in Salzburg. Another great teacher who use come up in this conversation. You read some of her books. She says unity, here's some people all the time that there, oh yeah, I tried meditation. I can't do it and she's like that's like picking up a violin for the first time in the EU, should be able to play ball. The US is a scale like you know. It's gonna take a little while as hard to find a violin on some on some levels, but you eat is a crazy thing to say that you do. You expect me to feel ass in the first time. You do it and the other thing is it. Doesnt units was to feel a certain way anyway. The point- and I keep learning this lesson over and over again, is not to feel a certain way. The point is just too

what ever you feel, they are clearly so that when you feel it in your regular life, you're not yanked around by it changing who you are by rags if you're sitting, if you have a meditation session in your angry, the whole time, but your mindful of the anger that me is that when you're angry half the cushion when nerve wife for Roar boss, Sir colleagues, as an image it it makes you really peeved did you're not. You are less likely to laugh that gap and that's that's where the rubber its throat that use the word before superpower is at a superpower. You said of meditation that that ability to be mindful of your own emotions not be act around by them. That actually is a superpower pops up in kind of unexpected ways. You know I type or the dentist application or whatever, but I shall write a book about mindful eating and There is a sort of like the cash you trick. Yes, ok I'll do it raises ok. I like a texture like a small thing, would have reached to spend a lot of time before you eat, like a single casual reason,

We would prefer to this, but in my view, the texture use million. All this stuff, and then you put one your mouth after all this time, you really can savour it, and that's you just focusing on the flavour and you like one cash. You like bad and its ten I'm more pleasurable than like you know, just doing the might mindless, just shovel. Cash using your mouth, which, at that time before that AIDS, that that's what most effective, quick things to show people if their curious meditation is just hate. Tat, this trick here, because I would imagine that would work for almost any one. You haven't David. This conversation were dumped letting go down lots of times you know my badly, but we know a lot about because I have it because I find myself now in the position of being like a business man, you have this little start of company of teaching people at a meditative urban up everything a lot about the best ways like really the best nuts and bolts ways to introduce people to meditation and something I've been playing with it.

Fully formed actually have to. I think I can be leading a meditation out attack crunching around and I've ever taught meditation before. So this can be we're from me, but I've been thinking about framing it right from the beginning. I'm not gonna make everybody caches raises. Rehab gets so that that's not technically feasible, but what, if I just frame it right from the beginning of okay, so air most people think they can't meditate, and I want to show you in three minutes that you can in fact you'll see within the first second that your winning, because if you get distracted and you know you distracted, that's a win. The framing the whole thing that way yet simplifying it and making it seem more table a guy. I think in naming the other app and above ten percent happier than you you did that with that as well, like you're, not promising superpowers. You not promising that you're to be living on part benches in a state of bliss. For the rest, your life, you know, like our tolerated AIDS, its hey, it's impotent happier like its significant. We have

if you frame it that way, it makes it seem less like this. Just big, crazy, unattainable thing here that smart, but when it was down to it. You can frame it anyway. You want in the the only real way people are gonna totally get. It is if they really Do we really give it a shot, but it is getting them in the door. Is the hard part, but I'm getting the door, but it also getting you can get them in the door. You can get them trying it, but a lot of people on that. First time they sit in a sea of crazy their mind. Isn't there like forget it? I'm done. I can't do this because it seems so insurmountable goes. The mind is running rapid, but I guess what I'm toying with his is framing it, so that when you close your eyes- and you see that the mind is crazy, That is the victory, which is something that everyone does, and so you know, you're gonna get a hangover some success rate there right. Everyone is gonna, get a moment. What I'm thinking too much, yet even their realisation is a win. His hat on see that once you see that the mind is crazy. You

that you realise that you're being yanked around by this thing, that that is the fundamental or one of the fundamental insights. So anyway, I'm just thinking allowing so it wasn't just meditation that you used in fairness to to really help you get your panic and anxiety disorders under control and in Northern Ireland were cure because you write carefully point out- and I have experienced this myself- there is no cure, arrives Mitigation Tipp, so other texts she used. Were medication can exercise, but those are the two other big ones: medication and exercise yeah. You know I've flirted with other things. Our tried acupuncture inside that guy, I went into it with kind of his total open mind like I'm gonna, put aside, although, like hey for all new idea be crap or whatever the my my dad told me, and so I gave everything a sharp asal, United added yoga, four years, which actually said

I stand by yoga being really really great as an exercise, not necessarily as united by the spiritual side of things or anything Bialik medication, adding that help forbidden bed, I'm nothing, I have his annex I carried around on a key chain, its view it as a fire extinguisher, it's a net. For use in fairly, ever maybe three or four I was a year or use it, but just knowing it, I've got that fires thing Romeo retiring is helpful but yea it. I feel something, maybe I'm just being stubborn, but something that I want to control myself the idea of going to medication stuff. I always has to say that, because for some people it is a huge help and Anna can be, can be greatly helpful. For me, I kind of a wrangle this myself and that's why I've always going towards exercise in meditation and AIDS is finding a balance, because right now I meditating way more than I ever have, but death also could not come at the expense of light really work not hard like this time. Last year I ran a half marathon here this year that marathons coming up, and you know it

thirty thousand, serves its. It is this some kind of ebony floods are trying to figure out. Ok, I need to get both of these and they both help a lot so that sell something I'm workin on but it seems to me that merit meditation is the top priority. We are still pretty young. How do I just turn? Thirty, two weeks ago, women look I'm foggy forty five soon, I'm still figuring. This is your right. It is a balance, and I appreciate we said above medication because he is a very individual choice, but I am of the view that you know you should ever people should be open minded about all of the potential arrows and quiver meditation medication. Eating well sleeping right. Exercise? All of these things you got to make make your own mix, but they should all be alive options as long as it's not harmful and you're doing it. The right way- and I were talking about- and everything like literally the first thing I said in the book- is hey. I am not a doctor. Do not like

I can tell my story until you what worked for me, but everyone can be different. It's different there. Person, but all I can do is share my storing what's work for me, you were even by the end of the book you you're describing serve your life. Is it well was when you're finished writing a book which public a year and a half ago? But you said there are some residuals from you know. These disorders that you struggle where we have one of them is that you mentioned I was just curious about- is that you have actually give double eating in front of other peoples that stood yet that that's it just a weird thing and again I still struck with that in Ireland. I want my girlfriends families and seven visiting Andy now and always last person national. Whenever I get the work launchers up my bad, I always was gonna box up something and then take it home what wise it it's it's increase The frustrating, because I know that there is no physical or biological reason that I am not swallowing faster it one of those weird mental hang ups, and it is with me for you. About as long as these ideas, I've been years where I've just like a totalling or

person, but in their times where I've got the smallest little bit of beef in my mouth, just the smallest, but like a little a little pieces thing and I'm ok in Europe it logically. I know that I can swallow this there's nothing. Stop me one. Two three do it: it's just some weird mental block, it I don't know like I've, always been quick to any. Amateur any issue going through anxiety, anxiety. So I don't know, maybe there's a whole another thing: the causes of this feels like anxiety thing to make us feel totally mental. I don't have all meals were. I don't have an issue whatsoever whole several weeks and then I'll have like one meal that takes me now. I have to finish, that's one of those in trying to work on now. That's that's one of most frustrating ones because turns out yet the everyday yeah. What about therapy I do that text. I just kind of finished with the therapist in San Francisco that I saw for the better part of a year, and I have found that to be very helpful as far as going to unpack

your history and one might have led to certain things and died. You can stumble honest. Realizations about why you are the way you are that you never thought of. So we did that we did almost a year, and I came to utter about some some more undesirable aspect. My personality that I want to work on that I hadn't thought it before I went in there and so dig it to point where we kind of like unpacked all the past that we could. Talk about it work and I go in our territory again, so we stop proper, go back at some point but yeah. I think I have a pretty good grasp on why I am the way I am and what I need to work on as of right now, I'm not and therefore you are on medication right, but you keep the those doors Oh a hundred percent my own, and I think it is extremely helpful. I trust that amount, which is we got to appoint Are we just kind of way I'd come every week, and now you know,

doing all right. I guess the supposed there for an hour and like let's talk about my dad for a little bit, and I forget what I'd rather a million times, so you know it's working day break for now. What is your dad you Tugela than book that your dad was not super. You talked about a little bit in this interview. Your dad was a bit dismissive of you say very usage in defense of your dad that he was a great dad knew that you have a great really want to stress that yeah, but that he was a little dismissive because of his own cultural candy. Little of your pack and anxiety and were how we are? How is that now, when he he's much more understanding now, I think it has helped to because my sister Alyssa when she reached eighty, Nor is the aids that I started avenues issues she started having happenings exit misuse and I Thank that made him realize I always understand. Being weird,

and also a year. He read the book every me and he got hold me and apologize and everything's. Ok, I'm sorry, I think I made some mistakes. How I dealt with that. You know I m really. I apologise that I see now you're really going through some stuff, but he out here He was extremely dismissive just in general he's just one of those guys that if you're not doing things exactly the way, he does them, it's not that you're doing things differently. If that IRAN, it's like well, if you like, That's not a real sport, so you're wrong in your stupid. If you don't like led Zeppelin, you're stupid, stuff like that like a yoke, but he is right about that. He or absolutely, but things that on the service, I grew with. I dont like soccer, adding suckers boy- I think that's zeppelins awesome, but now I am much more like when people dont like the same so I like, or they erode, passionate about something that I don't care about. I'm not! I don't go in my setters, like oh you're, wrong, I on the right way. This is the right opinion to have, which is very much how he priority always has have you run into,

as you to the extent that you even discuss your meditation habit with people in the video world are people coup that are, they think it's weird at this hour. They dismissive you know I haven't seen any like super negative stuff which stands for and the game community there's a lot of very harsh opinions either like yours. Biggest ban and the world of something or this to go away? This thing about these games ever need to be made in anyone replacement, based on my dad's thing. If you play these games, you're stupid. See. I have seen no negative reactions whatsoever are never seen any like. I wish direct So talk about the implications of the park asked, which I don't have to do it, that much did I pronounce your name correctly, Everyone's record North Korea and that's right now it s very rapid areas that IRAN is positive, but I've gotten tons and tons of feedback from people. Thanking me whether to deem on twitter or something for writing book and for being open about this, because there aren't that many people in this industry

they're open about it, and I think it's this thing that still kind of like whispered. But sometimes it will do these panels these conventions and allowed to have we do like Meetin greets outwards. People can take pictures of us autographs whatever and it's funny has allowed out of people will kind of wait until the crowd has his first a bit and up have pulled me aside and like I don't really want to thank you, for you know, talk about anxiety like, traveled with I've, never seen. Anyone could relate to that and talked this as these are not guy that are going to you know these gurus they're not going to like these big they. Let you look of these people departure, soberer Tony ravaged by these big. You know like gurus, I don't even know of tiny, represents meditation. We note, I mean those type of guys there- are now relate to just your average, twenty thirty seven gamer. I saw space where no one was

about this, and I wanted to be open about it and it seems like it's really resonated with a lot of our audience and as we are, the feedback has been tremendous. Well, I'm glad you're doing it, and I will people ask me a lot when I'm talkin about meditation. Oh, I. How do we get this into different communities specifically often one of the issues, as you know, a low income communities or reduce color, but I actually take it beyond that. Gaming communities, athletes, executives, algae BT, community everyone- and I saw one of the reasons why I also he was in his letter. We do gases I can bring on all these different voices and give them, I hope, a little bit more of a platform, because that's the way this. What I think is a public health revolution is going to spread is when you get spokespeople who organically speak too

the different communities diving. If you're, trying to run the spectrum of communities have done from the Dalai Lama to recall to me. So I have you really get a broad brush, strokes, fears of doing my job well, this is all came because you reached out to me. So thank you very much for doing it. Really appreciated. Thank you for the book in everything and it's one of the first things I recommend a people when I want to get into it. I appreciate that forego any other words of wisdom. You want to drop on us. The size I'm, not the give science, but I can t say it's the this thing in the world to try like there's no excuse tonight, DR everyone has ten minutes, everyone can find a place to sit down whenever I can, even if its noisy put in some headphones, white noise. It doesn't cost any money, like there, there's really no reason to not try How can I get I'm so bugs me out some one of if they dont, if you don't want to, but if you're even the slightest bit interested in when they hear people like me, and you talk about this, try it just take a minute.

Just try it you're not gonna greater the first time, you're, probably gonna, be elsewhere mentally the whole time, but just try and get better doing. Experiments do a month or yonder ten minutes every day, and it helps it else from industry. So more than had ever done our there's another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you like it, I mean age you up for a favor, please subscribe to it, review it and read it. I went to also think the people who produce despite cast Josh, go handler and foreign Sarah AMOS and ahead of ABC Use, Digital Dan Silver and heavy up a twitter Danby Harris next time this temper said happier. Podcast is brought to you by lighter care, pain, relief, patches, dry, lighter care. Your resolution, for

On the spot, pain relief is now available over the counter, with four percent light came in every patch enjoy the maximum amount of pain relief without a prescription, lighted care relief are you and your wallet there's not a person in Amerika who hasn't been impact it in some way by the corona. I was pandemic, but it every community. There are pockets of people who were soon

every day this is my last day of the cylinder stretch to drive off about photos from one of our Visa or America's essential workers. The people who are keeping moving, I turn into a home school mom and now in a new programmes. From eighty see news you gonna hear from damage. I she went back to my office and so unkind because he is not here, and I can assure you that our community has found faintly worrying. This is essentially inside the from the emergency room. The police cruiser to the Czech outline Yuki one. This pandemic sounds like the people putting themselves no one's way, there's always a risk. Brain is home to re. Kids are my husband or maybe errands, listen to the essentials inside the curve on Apple podcast, river, pod, costume.