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#275: Improving Your Relationships, Buddhist Style | Martine Batchelor


This episode is a mix of the technical, the practical, and the delightful. We’re talking about a meditation technique that can impact relationships, your biases, and how you handle things such as lying, sex, alcohol, and social media. The key word here is the ancient term "vedana." And it involves, literally, any feeling state we experience. Basically, everything that comes up in your mind has one of at least three feeling tones: pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. When you’re mindless, a pleasant feeling tone can lead to overindulgence or clinging; unpleasant can lead to aversion; and neutral can lead to numbing out. Unchecked, this unfolding process can have disastrous results, as it pertains to your reactions to food, other people, you name it. My guest today is going to tell us about how to bring mindfulness to this aspect of our experience. Martine Batchelor was a Buddhist nun in Korea for 10 years. She’s written a number of books, including The Path to Compassion and Let Go: A Buddhist Guide to Breaking Free of Habits. She lives in France, with her husband Stephen Batchelor, who was a guest on the show not long ago.

Where to find Martine Batchelor online:

Website: https://martinebatchelor.org/

Martine Batchelor's Dharma Talks - https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/119/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/martinebatch

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/martine.batchelor

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martinebatch/

We care deeply about supporting you in your meditation practice, and feel that providing you with high quality teachers is one of the best ways to do that. Customers of the Ten Percent Happier app say they stick around specifically for the range of teachers, and the deep wisdom they impart, to help them deepen their practice. For anyone new to the app, we've got a special discount just for you. If you're an existing subscriber, we thank you for your support.

To claim your discount, visit tenpercent.com/august

Other Resources Mentioned:

More on Vedana

Understanding the Five Aggregates Can Help You Get Out of Your Head: https://tricycle.org/magazine/five-aggregates/

Meditation Month 2019: Feeling Tone and Noting Sensations: https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/meditation-month-feeling-tone/

Deconstructing the "Self": https://www.lionsroar.com/deconstructing-the-self/

To learn more about and practice with feeling tone, check out Joseph's meditation on Feeling Tone in the Ten Percent Happier app: https://10percenthappier.app.link/FeelingTonePod

Additional Resources:

Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live

Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide

Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/martine-batchelor-275

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From ABC this, is the ten percent happier podcast cast down Harris before we get to the episode. We care really deeply about supporting you in your meditation practice and feel that providing you with high quality teachers is one of the best ways to do that. Customers of the ten percent happier app say they stick around specifically for the range of teachers and the deep wisdom these teachers have to import For anybody new to the app we ve got a special discount for you, if you're in existing subscriber. We thank you for your support so to go your discount visit ten percent dot com, slash august- that's ten percent. One word all spelled out dotcom, Slash August, hello. This episode is a mix, a nice mix of the technical, the practical and the delightful we'll talk here about an aspect of mindfulness
can impact your relationships with other people. Your bias is and how you handle everything from lying to sex, to alcohol, to social media, specifically we're talking about vague, and that is an ancient term, often translated as feeling tone. Here's how it works physically. Everything that comes up in your mind has one of at least three feeling tones, pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, when your mindless, a pleasant feeling tone can lead to over indulgence, are claiming wasn't, can lead to aversion and neutral can led to numbing out unchecked. This unfolding process can have disastrous results, as it pertains to reactions to food other people, you name it. My guest today is gonna, tell us about how
bring mindfulness to this aspect of our experience and her name is Martine bachelor. She was a buddhist none in Korea for ten years she has written a number of books, including the path to compassion and let go a Buddhist guide to breaking free of habits. She lives in France, you'll hear her lovely french accent, along with her husband, Stephen Bachelor, who was a guest on the show, not Lango, so here go Martine Bachelor. I Martine thanks for doing this. Thank you for asking me. We were talking about we set a rolling that we had lunch. Me and you, and your husband in the winter before the pen In the world has changed quite a bit since then, so this conversation is happening in a radically different context than our own
one, indeed, indeed- and so sad I mean it's such a shock to the system and its sign what is happening everywhere. Yes, it is, I think one of the things we going to focus on today is a way to work with our minds so that we can really become like individual vectors of positivity in helpfulness, so we're doing our little to make a dent in the universe. In this conversation indeed, and to me when the pandemic started, the coming days now started actually fall. Things came to mind. The first one was actually to see the practice of really in a way prepared me for this prepared me for
these pandemic, like kind of bringing some stability, some ground clarity and that's what price this is about to help us when we have difficulty at the same time, decided it a pandemic and make I'm going to stress about anything. My motto will be wise threats. Take your time the time you can to do whatever is needed, because, if you stress and you're going to be harmful to yourself harmful to others, the third thing was to think that appreciation more data rejoicing all the people who helped us to survive and to see what was still working? What where people still doing and also so great,
that all these people into it and then drew them so far, our survival and the first thing I took out the practice was: how can I change my relationship. How can we use this opportunity? really see the other and try to see them the differences and our relationship to the other differently, because we saw used to go on automatic. I have that relationship with this person. I have this easterly with this person and that's the way it Could we have a renewal? in our relationship in these strange time. So I would say the pandemic in weight, very bored and at the same time we can be an opportunity to really bring the practice to the situation in our schools.
Help ourselves and, of course, to EL others. You said so much in there that really deep unpack much of it, but I'm sure I am hot little bit hung up on one adorable superficial thing, which was that you called it covered decent. If which brings me back to my high school french class, I learned how to say: nineteen in French who so that was awesome, but do let's pick up on the fourth of the pillars there, the four things that came to your mind at the beginning, this pandemic witches should have using this as an opportunity to practise improving our relationships, bring us to this notion of feeling tone. Or Vader knows exactly exactly because I think we can on nearly did have been treated in red. Sheep to press see
the other and often to press. The other is express and gave me pleasant feeling tool, or Austin giving me a present? in turn this person giving me neutral feeling taught and then thinking the two nights he is in the other person, because we have the impression that in other person who gives it to me and that's why I became very interested in mind for less of feeling torn, because what is it mindful of feeling told feeling torn Veda the eating, any in the ancient party language accessory further to tour to analogy of contact through the senses. The simplest example is actually color like war the coroner? If we look around us is green Blue read any
see Green then give us a certain two. If we read it gives us another tonality. If we see cream, thus in order, and so what is it? Tunisia, colors as far as I know has not done anything to you grieve. That's no Jones at you, that's not giving you a nice present, but why is it that way? see green, red or or yellow and suddenly we feel something So maybe now for many, when can you have tat? Let you in Send it of these of this and watches
Important is to see that the temerity is conditioned by the perception and that- and so this is kind of like what's call the five omnipresent mentor factor, you have contact, tenacity, perception in and some attention as of today, we could go mainly at the first three with this contact. Tonality and perception. That's really whereby us we come in Hell perception entered did you really in a way influence each other? Let me see if I restate some of that Vader often refer to in English as feeling tone. The concept, as I understand it, is that
You know if you look at the mind, were constantly knowing various objects, taking incite, sounds thoughts, physical sensations, etc, etc, and every time something arises in the mind, there are three ways to experience it is it pleasant? Is it unpleasant or is it neither meaning is neutral, and this can seem incredibly technical. If you look at everything this coming up in your mind, because so much that comes up the mind nanosecond to nanosecond, but it has profound ramifications for how we live because we act. We're not mindful of the feeling tone of whatever were experiencing, we just acted out, so we see green wallpaper. We don't like green. We yell at the painter,
whoever painted the wall, so many ramifications come out of an unseen feeling. Tone is anything that I have just said accurate. You see. What is interesting is that the Buddha say in one text there is a hundred and eight they then ass, so actually using any said. The first to our mental or physical as we have to be careful to think that better now he's just above the might. Of course it's about the mine, but actually it's also some fee. We feel in the body very strange that actually eat of facts. Our whole body mine, complex and sometimes we'd be more mental. Sometime, will be more physical, actually and at the same time it's quite finds. It runs the effective,
we then, of course, is going to lead us to react in various ways, so you could say you answer, you see something you hear something. And then is, no don't pleasant, as you pointed out, The men generally give us a feeling sensation which becomes an emotion which they can become disturbing emotion as So what we do that we became aware too late. All Actually, the Meda, when things have already gone, overwhelming. And then we might act out you non harmful way to ourselves to others. So that's why you know way idea with the mindfulness of feeling tool used to say yeah, And they need second of how does it feel the meaning of it, the meaning of it pleasant. The purse
is unpleasant. What actually it's unpleasant because with it myself and in meeting the other person something of Athens, maybe they said something, maybe maybe I didn't know well offer real soon. I think the one first seem to be careful about is what I said before that we assume than the present mass unpleasant mass and retrial easing the objects, like, let's say, take mangles I like mangle. And so I think mangled by sound few, then you saw what he said. To me all I dont like mango then you tell them when you know that the good work and then forcing them to try one and there they ok I'll, try this one and then they stood I don't like it This is not the main goal, but it's in the person
in a way liking. It so he's gonna blank, and these be that's what he's so interesting window tonality you that is constructed, he's condition in the Preston owing the object but it's how society like for you Well, if we take the french people, you referred, said covering these nerve instead of colleagues, nineteen and before they eat snail, some of them, I don't, But then you see all this, namely slimy is unpleasant. So then the french people become unpleasant things. Why me because they eat the snail. So in a way we sought to a tribute things to other people, is like when I used to live in England and they used to its rhubarb every spring rhubarb pie and I,
rebaptize, terrible rhythm of youth or for its a sour. Used to think about. What's the matter Robinson. Then they like he'd. There must be something our planet about there and you that learning I drew up so the problem is not the thinking of pleasant unfastened according to conditions, but we then see things in the thing itself or in the person, which is, I think, much more dangerous than did the thing. You know the person is always like these. A person is always like that. All our society decrees, these people applies, and people What people these people unpleasant people they back people, but
all these good and bad all the time. What other condition could the pernicious effects of being a mind? Less of Baden, no work in another way as well. If I experience an unpleasant feeling tat, because of something you say or do, or where or whatever, and then I falsely assume that everything about you is negative. You know impute some sort of essential unpleasantness to you as opposed to seeing that it's happening in my mind, based on the causes and conditions in my life. It could be like that, but couldn't it also just be something? a simple as I love my wife. I don't think she's essentially unpleasant in any way, but she might say something that roused me there way, it gives me an unpleasant feeling tone and because,
seeing this unpleasant. Feeling tone arising in me. I then snapped back at her and all of a sudden were in a fight exactly- and this is a very good point- because you see what is also interesting in the taxi. Then would it talks about what happens we ve change is very interesting to me cut the changing nature of tonality how we re act to the changing nature of tonality. So would I first said there underlying tendencies. We ve tonality themselves, if it and I want more if its unpleasant, I dont want it if its a neutral, I'm confused but lead as life explains and explain that, but once scene stops he can become unpleasant, as well as its unpleasant in some pleasant, but when its thoughts he can become president
and we ve neutral. If you understand it can become clever, and if you don't understand it, it can become unpleasant, when a case with your wife. What is interesting is that, at one level there is, is pleasant feeling to most of the time from So generally, you feel comfortable because, yes, he is present, but then she said something unpleasant news like weights But you said you might not see it straight away, so I just give an example why, after that, there is a strong reaction, something really pleasant. And I made a mistake. I misunderstood something and then he turned to unpleasant Let me go. There was a cause of pleasant, then idea. Caesar unpleasant and then I went upstairs in my flight
and then an hour later, I was seeing something listen to. My husband were not done anything and I what's going on here. I don't anything, but I am saying something to him, and I realize it's just going upstairs because a pleasant stopped. It was replaced by either, isn't that generally we spread it. So that's another. It soon enough. We don't see it soon enough and then because we feel unpleasant, then we have to sharing to others. That's only we really easily do but wave the case. Your wife, it was the plane reaction. She says an I reply with something unpleasant
The one then these interesting. If we because of mine for less of temerity, your wife, say something, and then you can stop interest observe all this. Pleasure and then the question is: how long is this going to last and This is something I do a large in meditation, Andy Life or I see the difference. Feeling towards the Temerity ass change, and then our long is, is new tonality going to last, Then you are three level. If you don't do anything, maybe it actually passes once Some time ago I was with my best spending a car and yet difficulty kind of driving out of the parking lots aware, leads a tense and then he says something unpleasant and of course, my foot.
Reaction would be to say something pleasant to, but I thought now I think a little unpleasant in the body in the heart. How long is it going to us? So I just did not say anything back and I just we thriving we continue and actually the tonality itself. Let's see only two red lights and then was reading gone, because I have not done anything with it. I am not saying this is me. It is mine and I have to go away, Can we react emitted Nevertheless, when the Buddha says underlying tendency to unpleasant is to push away or to attack So in a way we feel unpleasant. Are we going to? This is terrible. This is terrible issues or for poor me. Pull me out.
Two. I am going to attack you because you attacked me you're hurt me I'm going to have to bear. And in a way this is a beauty. One could say. When we protest, but in a peaceful way, peaceful can offer masturbation you'd like there is a lot of very difficult, tonality and then You can t say I will be not causing harm. I must stress that we cannot stand firm for something I will not give back that anger. I will not give back that hatred. I will act more out of a sense of fairness of just is the less. What is interesting, weep unpleasant feeling too. What do you do I mean one? I heard I was at the peace conference and no lots of brave people talking about peace, everybody was falling asleep and then you on this
oh, come on the little guy and he said angry he was one my hero, I am angry anyone's Levy Pierre and he was the fast fast and long ago, in the nineteen sixty or the first Less than we did something about homelessness in France, and even become a member of parliament to do something about it and so yet unpleasant feeling too, because tonight the issue is a function, it survival mechanism. It's an evaluation mechanism to feel upon counter so people some pleasant forum that people suffered and when home, so he was angry at it because it was unfair and it was for any went to something about it. So we know he acted upon unpleasant feeling talk, but in a creative way, in an insight for way. The point
he's not. Then there is no tonality, but the point is that we create You engage with tenacity all we also by the term energy. So let's talk about how we can start this is in our own lives. I would imagine veal correct me if I'm wrong here, that the beginning of this process is to get really intimately familiar with these feeling tones as they arise in meditation. So we use that is our Jim, so that we can then apply it. Out in the real world? Yes, indeed, because I mean to be a long time to understand to really actually see the to go. I began aware: mindfulness I practices and then somebody gave a talk about it and I feeling too and my
most experience really was we ve cherries, because I loved reason: the person talk about finale, T pleasant, finale, decisive, ok, I'm going to win this cherries color. I love cherries and then see what upper so I e the cherry and then, if you continue to Georgia to lecture the till, now need to change something. We have to be aware, is at it's easier in a way to see tonight indeed in daily, because it to be more distinction where, if you sitting many teacher and that's why I could not find tonight you for so many years, because what I was finding I was like looking for it and he was neutral a lot of the time when we seek in meditation the technology will be fairly in the neutral ranch we could set. Not much is happening, use just sit there, but then what you can do is its in three different way. If you pay attention to them
ass, an you pay attention to the air coming in the nostrils coming out of the nostrils. What you can see days, just kind of like a bit of changing, every little cooler nature warmer and its fairly neutral the breath. But if you look at sensation, you have two we're looking at sensation. You're sensation in terms of content so you can feel them the clause on the body. You can feel the hand on the legs. You can feel the battle conversion and again that's fairly neutral. Or you can go into sensations and then might I was sensation in the new or you might ever sensation in the sure this Then there you start to see more in the wind definition. You could say the sensation could be a little relaxed and unpleasant sensation could be little tight and unpleasant.
Then the place you can really see the mind, Less than I would say is with a sound, forget, Felicity silent place. Then again it will be fairly neutral. But if you listen to sound, then there he listening to the music of life then there he can become. Really interested in term off. You hear a sound. And generally immediately. I like this lady your letter and he's very pleasant, but then once it is interesting that sound So you hear the sound of the bird than it stops does until now. The tea continues his unequal the sun stop dollar. Tonality goes that's it. We can really look into. Another thing is
She was sitting there and then he returned kind of like a mechanical sound allowed, make any concern, then Jimmy you can feel unpleasant and then, if he continues What happened to reality? Are you getting more and more upset about? See, though, does become little neutralised. All then you can play. We first section, Gunnar sitting in meditation than you hear, mechanical noise, and then you realize all they repairing the pipe which passed and then actually, although the sun could be a little pleasure. You couldn't become plans endured the changing perception, all their repairing the road grace the water is going to work better, so what is interesting is if they re
not much company, then you would be more in the neutral. But personally, being. The neutral can be also interested in general. What is radiation sheep to neither went nuts he's going on around the time we think of it as boring. This story. I am boring my life, sorry, this is terrible, circulates interesting. Nothing is going on, but we could have a strong reaction to nothing going on all you can have a different perception. Nothing is going on nothing bad is going wrong or MRS read them, as is lady She had dreamt of going to live in England. He arrived in London and shed such expectation that she's of London, actually was really drowned.
Open gray and their actually endeavour. Another reason feeling too, because beforehand generally replace unfeeling Dominum of perception going to London and everything you get there often, What happened on holiday dungeon, we only do so much more pleasant than the be there and then Social, who's gonna. Think I'm in love. It's not that great to think and then she stopped be. I do not know what to think, and actually it was ok. It was much better neutral And being in London, and saw not much happening that I good to say that she could see the difference. Between the unpleasantness or having to say and told me. The unpleasantness, because of the comparison of just
in a kind of a great London, much more my conversation with Martine Bachelor right after this if you like getting the story behind the story. Chickens start heap the Daily NEWS podcast from ABC News every morning start here, we'll get you ready for your day with insightful, straightforward reporting on a few days biggest headlines from round breaking in
to date of reports to urgent revelations shaping your world recently honor with prestigious Edward, our Maroon Ward start here takes you inside the stories that matter in withered heading next, so start smart. We stuck here check it out an apple pod canst or you favour Pakistan that want to go back to perception, because I think that ties back to something you said at the beginning of our chat, which is very technical from meditation standpoint, but I just want to assure listeners this can be technical, but its scales up to very practical in your life. So we're talking about technical meditation techniques that then scale up two ways that really have an impact. On your mind as you go
life and on your relationships, which of course, them continue to have not gone impacts on your mind. So will you talk about Vainer the feeling tone of things that come up while we're meditating and they? You talked about perception and I think it all starts with something called contact. So I think you talk about this chain before of Contact Vader perception. Do I have that right, you actually, but what you have to be? Therefore, as I talk about it, it seems to be linear. First contact, then tonality, then Simpson, actually not it up on at once. So at the same time, we have contact, we experienced tonality and we experience perception. So the way you can be mindful of there was a contact because someone, we don't know why. We feel what we feel and then
I want somebody said that you know nothing, they cease What a lot of this is happening with micro aggression, people dont, get it like. You know a lot of blood people. People of color in see keep saying, but so Britain and people say white people say, but I don't see the point you so minor, but actually we time every day. Sixty a day. Sign a year. You get these, which nobody else get the waiting Don't get people making remark and each time you fit So I firmly believe not birds, but it gives you these contacts so any could ruin you your life like even we won't you sick people when something one little thing is difficult. Suddenly, ah, he's gonna cost. Give the tenacity and let it go
If you get lots of these, then of course one is not words. But again and again you have that any just can reinforce the unpleasantness So I think first we have to see all I don't feel these, because I am that I feel these because, again and again I get this quota a visa. Bullshit, I'm not feeling these out of the blue, because it this is something that is not their normal. Now you see something you have contact with our ever tiny That's one thing to really be aware: contact something happen. I felt something. I saw something, however, slowly towards anything speak then it's more obvious of course. Then, at the same time, it gives you a timidity and again, if it's a small tonality, it may not be so obvious if ITALY,
bigger tonality will become more obvious, but we haven't a symmetry in the sand there. It's nearly takers, Us five pleasant like if you ever can scale the to chant pleasant focus indeed take us five plus five to say: oh, yes, this is nice and then please don't you you minus one minors, Europe on fire for you. I don't want it so actually being mind. Tonight? You help us to increase the place. The tenacity, to be aware of the to five, not just press far and the internal market, the pleasant again. He gives a greater range mind. The swan is thus minus. Five is not my understand. But if you get a lot of minus one, then they can go my rights
and then they become minus five may understand so. In a way the tenacity we can see the rent, just what is interesting with too many cheese, a range of it, and then perception is kind of like shifted. So Can you know if we see somebody- and we she was almost something and they said you do it. Ok, you do not do it, but if we over, that's what is interesting if we take an offer, but they did these unpleasant, later knows, I do not do. It will be taken By the unpleasant- and we still think unpleasant and they did it. That's what he's very problematic? Can we just? It is not their ankles. The offer needs really can off it amplifies negative tonight,
Did you really amplify, especially we ve perception because of that association we associated with it? in the past and think of the future. Something in the text who that talk about Sonali P from the past two hundred and ninety two from the present four hundred and ninety two from the future. That was all incredibly interesting and just so that I make sure that I understand the terms correctly. Contact in a technical, meditative sense means just simple. Something has happened, something has arisen in the mind, Vader or tonality is the feeling tone, as they see their pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, and their perception is just the mines capacity to know what it is. Your flipping through the I've heard it described. Perception is, like the mind, is flipping through its past experiences, to figure out: oh yeah, that's it fire engine
That's the sound of a bird, so it is simply just knowing what something is and we can be mindful of each of these, as they happen in meditation, which then, of course has consequences for how we act in the world is all that correct. Don't point up to a point presently, I think to possibly to your training. You seem to work a lot of emphasis on the mind which is buried up, but personally, I would say contact is not just about the man. Contact is really about the whole organism through the body mind complex being in contact. What we see what we what we feel the body. All of that These are important to see that actually it's quite body the concern for me. Very bodily, though of course eating with the mind and the thought that arise in the mind so personally fully. Contact is actually
it's all in the world and how it is impacting, buys a world, then the temerity exactly what you said perception, I would say, is a little more complicated than that, because perception is what you describing basic many many many making machine things makes sense to me. So, let's just consciousness, but perception actually can be biased to me person. Can these bias is how you perceive so in a way it is not just conscious perception is like how you make sense. Is that how you make sense of it is going to be impact it in a way by you so for using an education things, your life seen that up and to do so is not just
But how do we know we conscious of something but he's gonna like the consciousness We'll be conditioned by in a previous cause, it's an because ease and small causes. Sober gas at kind of the description, but a little wider, I would say yeah, I'm the student lurking his way towards an understanding here. So I invite you to correct me at every turn you referenced. Peace. We are now in this sort of international racial reckoning, particularly dramatic here in the United States. I think most of the listeners issue or we have an international audience, but I think the big bulk are here the states, how can we use this practice to better navigate this very sensitive and important moment? I think it's in a way
to just see. I mean the tonality work at many different level. I think it's so important I that's what everybody says and I dont know if it's possible, but can we get to know each other. Full. Then, in a way, all the different races, a different culture, really meet each other, but unfortunately, due to the way society is constructed in many different ways that he'd been friends at you'd been America that often people don't meet each other are not in the same area are not in the same courtship, and also there is a little bit of a little bit lots of discrimination in terms of school in India. These were ready, the very interesting experiments in one town. I can't remember the state now
but when they brought kind of like people will wait before with people from Latin American seem like that, we did. America were holder, boy in the United States and then they got them to talk to each other and what was very interesting for them was to see at what level of their equal in being human and that's what the level of its freaky differently. Because you had one lady when she was young she's, To deal drugs, she was erected in time and never went to jail, never went to court because she was white and she was from an accident another person in the room when he was also was dealing with some drugs, but he was black, was arrested and went to jail for a year
and when they talked about the experience they were like all we did exactly the same fee. Mighty one I've done it more than you, but you went today. I did not end there. The first time she realized wine privilege in a way, but first a soldier It would be all we would not be treated differently. We all human or you normally treated the same way, think we also know if white people, down the nor the living all everybody is treated the same, but it's obvious that people are not treated, they sit. So then the question be com Why do we treat people differently so weakened? we people differently into class. We country people differently in terms of culture. We can treat people differently,
in terms of re semi and You can of wonder why. Why so is it because of self interests? You know, that's something I have before me I never white person but The one thing we happen to me into, when at the beginning, was that we went to a trillion nor in the meditation well. When we were totally unknown in them station where nobody would talk to us when we were at meetings. And then we slowly rose up for whatever reason being the rank. They know it. Nobody wants to talk to us until we. This is something which I found weird. Why do we treat people differently?
don't get hierarchical level because of class. But this is something my father always daughters treat everyone equally, and there is an interesting idea in Buddhism, which is a and all Continuity is seen as being economists as being serene ass being com. But actually one of the idea of equanimity is actually treating people equally. This is a great challenge to treat people equally, because We not going to treat equally if people give us a different feeling too. I mean your wife if she doesn't say something unpleasant. She gives your feeling too, but you might think neutral some person you see on tv,
The approval are immediately unpleasant. Soon we offer we don't treat people equally because of the terminology they give us all, because Tonality society decided, then they her. I need something to do that personally, because somebody help me, then I'm going to go on three things: differently: fair enough. I mean if somebody attacks you and is of course, of course you have to get a real not to go back there, of course, but its interest, society deciding a group of people must be treated differently because they like this because they like that but is interested in France long ago
I need only stopped at the river Alicia, one thousand, seven hundred and eighteen from the one thousand one hundred and two one thousand seven hundred and ninety four, the group of people who are untouchable in French, this recently so far, eight hundred years, these people were discriminated against, they could not in the town they could not marry. They could not afford me today, its intrinsic, for they were really untouchable. And nobody knew why below so long ago. Eleven hundred- maybe I don't know the know, whatever it's? Only a group of people decided. For whatever reason these people we going to treat them differently and asked to treat a group of people differently and you'll, do it on the function of tonality,
it's still manage to which these people are unpleasant. The whole group, unpleasant, no matter what they do say: Windsor sensible in India. They all I'm sure, nights the only impure so born, and you already impure you're already given prison feeling to the pure. Why this is so strange by society, creed to ninety within the population and then, of course, Twitter Facebook. Were these places are going to reinforce its own, which I think the firmly dangerous That's the way they were reinforcing. Tonality say more about that. How does social media reinforce on way because it's all about tonight, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram picked up? Whatever you are
that stand to gain easy, we now so interesting. I mean the aggrandizement industry also totally understand to managing, saw. I mean Facebook informed about the you, like you decide in Samara. You, like you, decided. I would just like to know what image gave you present feeling tone he may give you unpleasant feeling too. So that's why he saw a lot of people get a locked out of watching. Can we do that back home their monopoly than feeling too see a few lonely cats and you feel, feeling too so level, I think it's very good for people but understand If you want to reinforce unpleasant feeling, told you say lots of, they think about. Somebody was not done anything I mean you're. So many, can offer. I don't know how you call it the forts acts, so that
if you say you no bad thing about somebody, even if they dont do it, then each reef and force the unpleasant tonight. In some of the story, but in order for you to make yourself seemed better your needs Somebody wheeze unpleasant. I mean if you are in any group. Didn't you ever knew somebody? Where are you going to erect the unpleasant vessel. A long time in community and they say something I observed that time to time who does problem with one person and then one the lack of radon looking for or the bad thing they did not seeing the book. They need, but just a bad thing. They did so you look all the time for the banks in there. But when you write that problem with that person looking for all the bad thing, they did you not programme with anybody else
or your unpleasant tonality was fixated that way and then, when that went, but everything is impermanent, hopefully then suddenly you a liter things unpleasant with other people. Anyway, I just don't get it to one person and then society- you can tell get a group and so you have lots of plan and feeling too high. Because everybody using all three Great Alfred Great they so terrible over? There aren't we greatly regret and I feel, unfortunately, Facebook twitter there really using that people are really using it. We give unpleasant feeling turn about certain people and then present
Turning to my group strategy that will, let me go back to the practical application here. So we talk about how one can explore and see and become more familiar with how feeling tones operate. In the mind at a very micro level in meditation and that we talk a lot about. You should scaling that up to our day to day life, can you say more about exact How in our mind we can catch the feeling tones before we act on them blindly? Actually, I would say not so much in the mind but action in the body. For me, I think what I mean when I say the mind is all of it, after the words that I dont think I mean just like thinking,
I mean what I say the mind. I think I mean the mind and body, but me you can maybe tell me that I'm pulling myself. So what do you mean term of practice like let's talk about practice and then always scale it in daily life? So internal practice, you see meditation and you do the same thing you do, but you try become aware of, cannot become aware of the two analogy of these contacts: contact with brass contact with the sensation contact with the sun. And then you go out in daily life, so first you have to Beware of the quality of our experience that there is a little different. There is a little different to. What is interesting is to notice a difference in tonality would send differences, mood, then you go in daily life any
suddenly. You feel, like you ever, let alone pleasant tonality. I think you notice the unpleasant more than the pleasant, but personally, I think it's a good practice also be aware of the pleasant bullets you'll get. The Uncas saw you but your daddy and you feel reluctantly fine and then you suddenly, we very often the heart area, all the best the area you feel a little and then genuinely we're perception, meaning Can we see? Why do I feel this is a mess with indeed this is it that in turn away here unless somebody is attacking you and then you have to really rare creatively, engage Fass Nazi. There is a little different, I feel something does it feel and then noticing,
What's a quota, even somebody, somebody sand, is it something I saw and so to Caesar shift that, I think fast to be aware, is a shift. Or when you see somebody I mean, if you want a good example in terms of being in the streets, I saw interest, you go in the street. It is essential person. Look at people, you see people any major, or I like that one. I dont like I like their dress. I dont think they dress, so just to be aware that actually I look in different people because of the perception I'm going to have a different reality, even though I dont know, then this is what is interesting in terms of the strange You don't know them an you of that committee, which is essential.
At the moment. Is that possibly, I hope so recently in America, Asia, because what's happening about black lives, mercury that hopefully people on lies there to black people, for example, and then to lack the first action is my intention is to be kind and that central tenacity of seeing somebody with a little, I dont know that personally I see the present there is a need for open prison can actually the person- and I dont know them, and so looking at the city from trays icy, different people watch my temerity. We all these people, you ain't central station, so many different people watch my tonality when I Caesar or when you hear somebody but too many
just to the sound of what they say use you should have somebody I mean you have a beauty, full voice, so people helium my like that, but he somebody had a different wise people myself. I don't like the worries and because I don't like the wise going to listen to them, and this is interesting. What happened? What is it. Make, makes you a sin creatively, engage or react, makes this kind of appreciate all makers, dismissal makers Bush away, Of course, we have to be aware of our self and kind of what she's on full, not harmful, but within that all an excellent place is Personally, I do a lot of meditation. When I drive you drive, what's it tonality neutral,
you think about something else, you stacking of traffic jams. What do you do? What do you do? Watson, tonality when you're stuck in traffic jams, so you are in your wife and you are a traffic jam. Do you keep pleasant feeling thought o because plans and then suddenly you started the unpleasant. The person next to you, what happens Hardway transmitted the unpleasant pleasant. This is what is interesting, that we can also act on the pleasant and we can make a conscious do. I want to continue these to be employed in some way or when you look all the shops I mean the shop window, I mean you know you see something in his like the field. Is calling out to you I want this
I don't know I will point seventy three and a half this point in time. I love Times Square when they arrive in New York or these seeing the new they can block. Everything you star so that it creates a pleasant feeling, so you want it and just to see that I'm looking at this, what's my two nineteen connection to their so in this exploration you described so well. Who cares what I'm hearing you say? As you know, this is like an experiment. You can run in your own mind and body, see what I did there all the time and what I am hearing from you in particular as it relates to race, is again, maybe I'm projecting here. But what I am hearing is that we can approach it
It can be very embarrassing and humiliating to notice that may be some people for no reason other than our own conditioning some people of who look a certain way can provoke a negative feeling tone in us and so I don't want to look at that. What I'm here from use that if we approach this as an experiment with some curiosity and with a sense that these feeling tones our impersonal their result of conditioning that this big can't make a really healthy and helpful way to approach it so that we can interact creatively with these feeling tones as they arise. Exit I think we could. Then you can really look at the perception, I think It's gonna be why my perceiving this person that's what's going on here. Can I perceived the person differently
color religion story. I dont want to equate to raise, but I'm sorry I hope it's ok. But I was in Korea. This ten years in Korea and the first I'm rice cake, gooey, rice, cakes. I saw what is this: how can I hate this stuff Ten years later, I loved it a friend, a korean long, and he could see enjoying cheese, and he could not understand that we could enjoy cheesy forty metres thinking? It was terrible star, so wise and user. Ok, I'm going to obtain cheats. And then every day here too little square another. And with the Winkie became neutral, The problem in we think this is back to essential. This is my essential nature. I don't.
This all they see their essential nature there, a likeable incidentals no, it's kind of or condition my responses condition and the way I perceive them is condition and was simply the Willoughby areas condition so anyway, how can I creating gay, with my condition, all their condition and so cannot like to see. Can we bring some come? Listen to this to me, you ve got to know it is and then ten we creatively engage relief, but not in the way that we lack the ranger lie. Taking ourselves I should note that these tenacity, I must add, that to damage but more, oh, how does it change? What makes it ten
story, that's what one of the main themes! How does it change in terms of time or, Inter all? First, let's go back to neutral promised to talk about this earlier I said I want to talk about this. I believe you spoke about, and you may have hit it a little bit in this interview that we have it. Can see to overlook neutral, but there's a way. To relate to it differently that can we can make, neutral. A more positive experience and change serve our baseline for being in the world. Can say more about that. Yet to me. Actually I would look at absolutely be kind of like a little discussion in some of the bodies,
The reference, C4 neutral, exist or does not exist, but even at the time of the Buddha they were discussing this. So I don't think we need to go there, but we could see it as a useful concept, and so for me I can see it as a useful concept in two ways, One if we could see neutral more as a baseline sin way, we go up Pleasant go down and unpleasant, and then we come back to them This line of neutral. So that in the way we cannot feel all the time and pleasant all the time present. But a lot of the time we going to experience neutral, because he's gonna rang the way the system is rusty and he cannot all be. For the organism? The second thing that can be useful in terms of the neutral
this line for the organism. The second thing that can be useful in terms of the neutral is a fact that, in a way, if your letter, you depressed and everything, is really unpleasant. Think all I'm like minus six unpleasant- and I need to go back to plus five pleasant, then is going to be like seamen possible tax, but actually only have to go back to neutral and that could be possible. Something just go a little We because we have a strange benchmark for pleasure, ass plus fine, I think, needs increase the range of pleasant and give us more possibility into move unpleasant and pleasant. This neutral baseline, just picking up on that you can see why perhaps evolution would have created us to have a head
trigger reaction to the negative so that we survive and to have a higher bar for the pleasant so that were really motivated to look for food and other pleasant things that also help us survive make any sense not liking to realities. This is a So I am, of course, of course, totally totally and then leaves a neutron soon to see more. It base line a resting place, but also to see that in the Tacs and quotas so that you can of organ reach reality or you could? I would you could call insightful tonality calming clear tonality and they in reaction to the would be very different so that in a way If you only ordinary pleasant reality, you would go into it. More I want to repeat seed in future
ordinary, unpleasant analogy. All I can't stand it. I hate seeds and then you would amplified that way if its new, oh, you get confused, not knowing what to do, but if you have to know, because you don't mind for less, which is war in wise lacquer tonality, which is pursuing experience in no wise way, then actually it'll be what he called can of something which would be more in sight for they made the day. Friends lucky he acquired lot neutrality with equanimity answering basically says you can have an economy which is about. I don't care, It does not bother me who cares, but for you that's up through equanimity, and he says you can like insightful equanimity, actually equated. Often Windsor Minos Mine, thoroughly
This line to mean that the mine behind this luminous, but when you ve been the quantity medicine inside for becomes luminous and thought equate that, when you experienced on energy, if it's inside, for actually you going to feel these, you could say contented com contented. Clarity, so it does love to do in a way the neutrality, as perceived as ceiling, grounded Phoebe stable anyway feeling common clear. I love this it away and he's really fundamental practice. Fur hacking, our habits serve not being so controlled by automatic. De Anna has so many ramifications for in our own inner, whether moment a moment and then, of course, for how we are in the war,
then, how retreating other people personally. I would also connected into ethics building away, if you look at it, the extension of, for example, that the five parties precept the first one is: do not kill. All you could say do not cause harm. Why do we cause? generally, we cause harm we can have a serial killer, which is something else. I said these deep, which is something I believe we all need. Re person. Why do we have often, like you said, will your wife it's the same unpleasant? Then I'm going to retaliate Something is unpleasant, I'm going to get rid of it, I'm going to kill it. And so in a way I mean
Skaters, you get the baggage, you killed the risky to immediately sent away when something is unpleasant. We want to get rid of it, and so these first presented is ok. How can I be homeless, which will mean? How can I creatively gauge with unpleasant tonality specially game bank by the outside wasted the same. You experience a very unpleasant to reality. Actually you going to harm yourself, you know he's gonna. How can export someplace entrance energy that he'd be inside or outside in a way that I can creatively engage and then the second one is still not still, do not take what she's, not even. Why would we take some feet because give us present feeling towards all I want is. I want
As for myself, during away, if we think which is not given to us, is genuinely because of an unpleasant feeling too, and then we could question ok, this thing is going to give me Present feeling phone, but for how long? This is interested in how we, if we get this and be happy in other unpleasant feeling dawn and then new steely. You take advantage of somebody to get it back. How long does it last. You know nothing about this. The Buddha say nothing can give you and satisfaction We could learn to be contented,
Can t possibly by more simple live so that we don't feel will have to what are your things all the time so that we have to ratify the prison? Feeling too, I think that's a thing about that one. Then you have the someone to be careful with our sexuality and it's the same author we ve sexual pleasure, you cannot get lost in your own pleasure and don't think about. It was a person and my son Home then How can you think about your own pleasure without being lost in it without taking advantage, but also thinking about the other person, pleasure and also accepting each will not last eat will not plants. Then you have lying is interesting. Why would we lie. Either you lie because I wasn't feeling too: I can think about children. They break something
buyers broken and they say I didn t do not doing so in a way you a nobler, feeding torn and then you'd try to to lie so that he goes. Oh, you lie because its pleasant, some people like me, Why? Because it gives us a pleasure personality I did didn't. I did that when they know not a whit, it's interesting line. What's behind it, sometimes because its unpleasant sometimes go these plans and for the person to long and then the fierce one I'll call on drugs. When do we take these often because its present, but a lot of the time, because we have an unpleasant feeling too, Recently I read about a young woman,
fell in love with a cold when she was fifteen. A first class of strong liquor gave her these amazing tonality. She felt lively, intelligent fun when she before she was very shy and anxious. Ass though she fell in love. She said without and then she drank and drank and drank was still alive and then age thirty. She had to stop because she used to have terrible blackouts. And she said she fell in love in the sand bank. She had such pleasant feeding turn at the beginning and she was gonna win, win untying the same thing, but why? Because it replaced unpleasant analogy, or because the thing, if you present reality, but then he could be harmful to others. You know him
the time we're gonna, decent human be then time to time we not. And then that's what I'm interested in well, what happened and a lot of the time it has to do with temerity. Let me ask you a question that may seem like a non. Sequitur may also seem like a gigantic question, but I'm curious to hear you talk about a question. I've heard you pose publicly before we is what is love and what is not less so interesting. What is love that's why I'm never lobbies and pleasant or vanity, and actually the Buddha said pleasant analogy- is very important, If it's inside following wise and compassionate as always it. Again, we ve love, nothing, lobbies, unimportant quality and it's soul.
To love. That'd, be your partner, your kids! any more than the planet people, because it gives us a very heavy tenacity. Then the question is: why do we grasp that when we Do we grasp the pleasant analogy we get when we are next to the process? So then we want to be with the person or the time, because we think they give us a pleasant analogy. All do we grass at the idea of love. And actually we grasp here what I'm looking at these. We grasp the pleasant analogy we supposed to have with this person and again, because we think we need to be told the time. When he away, you cannot have the same pleasant analogy. We were person all the time. Tendencies
you're being a bad mood? Your distress? You have difficulty so then, if you are stressed with difficulty. Then you're not going to experience the same pleasant feeling which your equates with love. So then, when you don't have that prison feeding time, believe me, you don't love the person. They don't lie you all, that's the way? Love is something which is not just based on tonality here, but is something we cultivate. And so, in a way to me, love is like two parallel line. You have to cultivate out side of the line. We was a friends and different thing like that, and you have to calculate inside the line. So it's not just of feeling glistened weak weight. I see this ceiling. I love the purchaser
and if I feel a din tens, pleasant feeling told islands person, I find Philip Philip done these breast and loves me enough. That's an interesting went to and then in the wind blowing cease warm feeling but he's kind of a complex, Gunnar reads appreciating sharing growing together. They saw anything in love, so many things in it. But one thing which is also important: we love you that we love each other away if we don't know each other. This is what is problematic so anyway, you stuck with yourself, Don't love yourself, you stuff, we went downstairs and feeling torn by If you allow yourself, then it's very easy to have a pleasant feeling too, because you are in your son,
and then in a way, loving. Someone else is an addition to them, and then you can bring more people in your love in these beautiful cannot love pleasant feeding tool which is based on common. Clarity, friendliness appreciation still working on it. Unless you one other question- and I think this is related. Marie the producer, or help prepare me to do this interview identified a nice poem that you wrote called the little easy guide to awakening and the first lines are enlightenment question mark The light is already on what you mean by that.
This is something in the school I was trained on, which is a thin school son schooling, Korea,. And for them we are already and we're home. Indeed awakened, and I think what it means either our creative potential Is always there our creative potential for wisdom for com? have so far ratified. The standing is always there we have it. We have that possibility at the same time is not on in the fact that it will always manifests so that the air. Enlightenment awakening wisdom. Compassion is possible, any moment, but at the same time, over time, we have built up a lot of automatic reaction and I think Our automatic reaction was more,
Sire Nord, in order to protect ourselves and also some influence from society from culture. And so I think that when we become adults in a way to see all, why do I need to do this? Oh, why do I need to do that? As personally I see the meditation, the practice of meditation. The practice of anchoring of looking deeply as in the winds and decency. Those harmful survivor mechanism, Suez habits tool, hubby physical habits, relationship by bids, its emotional, Why can we not limitless. And then he went to saudi authorities also so that we can come back to our creative function anyway, the faction is there, we always creating functioning organism.
But over time there have been a lot of color religion, fixed habits and then can a really practising to deserve this habit so that our creative potential can emerge can benefit. And one way to really experiences is doing what I call. Many didn t listening. So you listen to somebody. And generally how do we listen offer? We from the person to stop. So we can say something much more interesting. All we, working in the right direction, but we do he ran so when they say what do you think we have no idea what they said. We will react and amplify, which is not helpful, but if we really listen to the present really listen to what they say totally unprepared,
then at the moment they stop in the term to worse than a lot of the time we say something so creative, so clear, so complex, so relevant, we ve never thought before. So, where do you come from You come from meeting another person. We that calm, there's a clarity that friendly there's that stability balance and then with the mass lots of creativity can come in. This seems like the work of a lifetime both This getting out of your own way and here a paradox in there of, on the one hand, the capacity the light is our
on always so it's there and we can access it at any moment using perhaps mindfulness evade no or other buddhist techniques or other techniques that are even not Buddhists and we can get better at the scale of accessing it. Any more. Exactly, I think, totally get it that's been away at one level: it's what we call sudden and grandeur in the song practice. Europe No, we decide your sudden awakening, which is always, possibility evidence. In time of gradual practice, because of certain awakening is not immediately going to stop the habits. So I We have really this woman's great wisdom, gray, compassion and then, at the same time, you have to work on yourself. You have to college So in a way we gotta wait a little bit, then the cross roads are what are called the Debs dimension
and then the weeds damage say that again the depth they're dead stems, and so in a way that Debs dimension, I would say, is generally a little bit limited in terms of conditions. So you know when you buy a So you might reflagged and he's gonna like the country slowly to limiting lock on reach. For example, on a day of practice when you meditate, and then sailor you for cars and so in the weather, conditions are limited, and then you can go into the depths of the product but at the same time you have to calculate in the width of the press these, which is your daily life. Your relationship, though You use resources away, you treat people in your office, etc. Saint Francis so it seems to me we always at the crossroads of the Deaf summons, though sometimes people all just a that's just
I want to have amazing meditation many days experiences when than those of the habits You need the text with the whites and sucking me at the crossroads in that level practice at any given moment. I think that is a great and inspiring placed to leave it. This has been to no surprise at all to me an incredibly rewarding. Add, and I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much the place to discuss the issue is said to be thanked him. Our team knows really fun to reconnect with her and to learn more about the practice of feeling tones check out. Josephs meditation on feeling tone in the ten percent. Happier Apple put a link in the shone out,
by the way. If you want to learn more and hear more from Martine herself, she has many of her talks up on Dharuma seed dot. Org. That's De H, a r M, a s e dot org, Rolling in the show nuts- and you can learn a lot more about her on her website, which is Martine Bachelor, DOT, Org again links in the show notes, as always big thanks to the team who help, but the show together, Samuel Johnson is our senior producer mercy. Schneider meant is our producers are sound. Designers are met point and on your sheets of ultraviolet audio. Maria we're tell us our oppression coordinator. We get a ton of wisdom and guidance from Tpa colleagues such it, then Reuben Gent Point make Toby enlist Levin and finally, big. Thank you to rank S. Orange Asko had from ABC News ass you on Friday, with a bonus.
Transcript generated on 2020-08-19.