We have another themed week for you, with two episodes about how to navigate major life changes-- clearly a resonant theme, given the various dumpster fires that are raging in our world right now. Coming up on Wednesday, we’re going to get a deep dharma take on this subject, but today, we’ve got a guest who takes a more journalistic/scientific approach. His name is Bruce Feiler. He has a new, bestselling book called Life Is In the Transitions. In it, he offers seven tools for navigating what he calls “lifequakes,” which can range from divorce to job loss to addiction. Bruce has written a series of bestselling books, including Walking the Bible, and Council of Dads, which became a TV show on NBC. He didn’t mean for this new book on transitions to come out during a pandemic, but the timing is perversely perfect. In this conversation, we talk about: the events in his own life that got him interested in this subject; why “lifequakes” are a feature, not a bug; and why the word “resilience” makes Bruce grumpy.
Where to find Bruce Feiler online:
Life Is in the Transitions by Bruce Feiler: https://www.brucefeiler.com/books-articles/life-is-in-the-transitions/
Other Resources Mentioned:
Jean Piaget's Theory and Stages of Cognitive Development: https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html
Freud's Psychosexual Stages of Development: https://www.simplypsychology.org/psychosexual.html
Erik Erikson's Stages of Psychosocial Development: https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html
Daniel Levinson on Midlife Crisis: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5e75/2a77fb59cc48e9eea4b1ef4c53056b0f140e.pdf
Elliot Jock on Midlife Crisis: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-mar-23-me-jacques23-story.html
The Rites of Passage by Arnold van Gennep: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Rites_of_Passage.html?id=kJpkBH7mB7oC
William James: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/james/
Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live
Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide
Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/bruce-feiler-282
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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things we ve got another seemed weak for you with two episodes about how to navigate major life changes. Clearly a streamlined
The second theme, given the various dumpster fires that are raging in our world right now messing many of us up
come on up on Wednesday, we're gonna get a deep dormer take on this subject, but today we ve got a guest who takes more journalistic, slash scientific approach. His name is Bruce filer. He has a new best selling book called life is in
incisions in it, he offers seven tools for navigating what he calls life quicks, which can range from divorced job loss to addiction. Bruce has, by way of background, written a whole series of best selling books, including walking the Bible and Council of Dads, which then became a tv show on and B C. He did not mean for this new book on transitions to come out during a pandemic, but
timing is perversely, perfect. In this conversation, we talk about the events in his own life that caught him interested in this subject. Why life quakes are a fee
you're, not a bug, and why the word resilience makes Bruce Grumpy here. Go Bruce. Viler are right! Well, nice to see you thank for done us my pleasure than by keeper having what. How would you describe the thesis of this book from debating whether I should start right with a thesis or tell you how I came to the pieces, so I think I'll do the second. Why? Because I didn't go into this project with a thesis, but a big linking pieces showed up pathway through. So what happened and can have what led me into this,
And then some is what this book is about is how we deal with these big wrenching changes in our colleague. Light quick- and am, I think, is what worryin now and I got interested in these, because I went through a life quick some years ago, as per second cancer as a new dad was the same year as the great recession
My family was hit very hard and then my dad, who has Parkinson's, lost control of his mind. This was a man of his novel, depressed him in his life and he tried to take us like six times and twelve weeks, and this was a kind of big crisis in every way you can have a crisis, the converse
since that we had to have were uninhabitable. I like difficult conversations, and these were difficult conversations that were impossible to have
I'm the story, guy and undermining guy and one morning
on Monday morning, I woke up in a single idea like what, if I send my dad a question, because my dad was always a bit of a storyteller, and I sent a question like we're. Toys. Did you play with us again couldn't his fingers at this point down him, but he thought about a week. You Dick
his answer, serious spit it out. We began to edit it in its work, and so I might also have another one like tell me about your grumbling, and this went on essentially every Monday morning for what became views about the huge become an eagle scouting.
To join the Navy out, you made mom and this man who would never written anything laundered, and I got free, sentenced memo in his life, backed into writing a fifty thousand word or back, and I got a very interested in my
times of crisis in our lives like it. It's a narrative event in some way and it turns out. There's all field narrative, gerontology resolve, fielded merit about a lessons and narrative medicine and have storytelling was just becoming kind of a thing that people talked about at that time, and so what happened in this,
makes me think of your own life and how you ended up in this conversation is when I began to tell the story to people. Everybody had a similar story of my life, had a headache and went to the hospital and died. My daughter try to kill herself I've
However, spread down on my television in your case and
I thought well known, as have other story anymore, and let me see what I can figure out, because
people were saying about the life I'm living is not the life. I expect I committing life out of order in some way, and I call my wife one night and I said.
I gotta figure out. I hope- and I don't know what I'm gonna find and I dont know how to do it, but I feel compelled to do this, and so I set out on his journey. What became three four years critics
a country collecting what became hundreds of life stories of Americans all ages, all walks of life or fifty states- and you name it- they had people lost homes, lost limbs Jane
careers change. Gender is changed, religions got sober, got a bad marriages.
And at the end of it I had it was powerful, but it was too much six thousand pages,
transcripts, a thousand hours of interviews- and I ended up doing something-
never done in thirty years running books, I got a whole team of people and we spend a year coding.
stories coming through them debating
I'm gonna beating one against bad trying to figure out what was the big message. What was the big theme coming out of it and so that the backstory,
Now I can answer your questions are the big idea that emerged out of this was that the linear life is dead. The idea that you and I grew up
What are? They could not have one home on job, one relationship when spirituality, one source of happiness than adolescents to assisted living like that's just gone and it
been replaced by what I call the nominee life, which has many more
some turns, and that involves many more like transitions in, so my book then gets into a kind of a tool kit for how to navigate them
my point is that this is a scandal that we all must have at. This is a lifelong skill of a life on sport that no one's teaching us how to play, and I've been thinking this per year.
I've been working on this for half a decade, and the book arrives LO and behold at this moment when the entire planet is going through a light transition centre, use terms like a disruptor and a life quick? What what are those terms me
and what's the difference. So the essence of the norm in your life is a series of changes that we all go through in the course of our lives and one of the big beams that emerged from these conversations,
The number of these changes is going up
Variety of them is getting broader, and this.
In our life that they happen is getting wider. So this kind of myth of the mid life crisis that everyone's gonna, though idea of passages book in the seventy, the total,
million copies said everyone does the same thing in their twenties same thing in the thirties, and everyone has a middle,
crisis, a thirty nine and a half I got all gone. We have these changes across our wise, and so what I did was I teach them out and I turned out there were fifty two of these. I call the fundamental basis
It change disruptor and I use that word are intentionally because they're, not all
these do not even all negative like some them are positive. Getting married is disruptor having a child is a disruptor choosing to change jobs or to move that's disruptor, so it disruptor is. The basic unit of change
my data show that we go through three dozen in the course of our lives. That's one every twelve to eighteen months and most
and we get through were pretty good at adapting to change. It turns out. We go through it.
bit of discomfort. We rally around our friends, we adjust our lives, we gotta tweak our life story and then we move on, but one in
Ten of those becomes a message and that's what I call a life where you gonna call him,
a quick because its higher on the Richter scale, the consequences and the aftershocks. Last four years, and so these life quakes they could be voluntary
moving changing religions, leaving about marriage, involuntary your spouse, cheats on you, you get fired, you lose your limbs in an accident, you get a diagnosis, but a life quake is the event, but how you get through. It is the light transition and said you think this is
the thing I think that the landing at the moment this book is landing. Is the life quickest the pandemic? The light quake is the virus, it's the shock that we all took in the world taking and it's gonna last.
For years, but the one he had its collective involuntary like quick
terminology, but what is interesting is that the way we experience it is different, so you may make be making a job change. Someone else may choose to give sober. Someone else may choose to leave a bad marriage or to have a baby or delay having a b
so it's interesting we're all going to this together on the one hand, but on the other hand the we each of us is gonna, respond to it. The transitions that are gonna come out of, it are gonna, be different, depending on who we are and where we are and what circumstances we face an island. I'm gonna get the gun here, because I wanna get deeply into the talk it. The fact that these are how we handle a transition. Is it their skills that we can develop? But I guess you know when people talk about him pandemic
and we're all in it together. We're all in the same boat has often been said. You know we're not some
are in yachts. In some of us are on rafts, and so it's a loaded proposition in my mind to talk about.
skills or your handling this better, but because so many of us are were so much more vulnerable to this life quake than others. While this is it, I have a couple region.
Since today, so I created, I analyze all these life, quick that was sort of the essence of what it was, and let me just say that day I didn't want to different categories on two different matrix.
for access. If you well, one was voluntary or involuntary, ok and that was more or less fifty. Fifty forty seven percent of pupils, like colleagues, were voluntary people choosing to make a change. Fifty three percent or involuntary, and what did you say,
I was born in nineteen sixty four, which is nominally the tail end of the baby boom, and I looked at this not out while forty seven percent
or like Craigslist cool, like we're getting an almond your life forget me idea: weep weave inhabited the idea that we can change our lives. I
bunch of millennial, coders on
team and they looked at this moment, o fifty three percent of five greater involuntary there were still clinging to,
A metallic g that they're gonna be able to control their lives. The other metric I used was collective or personal, so personal, something that happens to you and a collective is something that happens too large for the people, so the smallest category
was collective, involuntary life. Quite so a collective involuntarily earthquake would be a natural disaster. I talk to somebody else
preacher and Joplin Missouri. That was the most devastating tornado that the country had ever seen
nine. Eleven was the one that came up most commonly. I talk to professor
add and why you named Naomi Clark, who was born male bodied and always felt that something was off.
They had never heard the idea of transgender or the idea that she might be a woman because she was male bodied and she was
downtown on nine eleven covered in ash and she thought I may lose. She was a game designer at Lego.
The time and she thought I may lose my job. My parents and transmission me, but I've now come face to face with an existential
I would rather be alone and be true to myself and not be true to myself, and that became the motivation that inspired her to go through the transition and become a woman Jeffrey through will get into
a token gesture, a hormone party, because people use rituals amusement
So nine eleven came up with my and there's a line in my book, then like a son
right or to writer here, like a throwaway line that had I
done these conversations a century ago,
There would have been many more collective involuntarily earthquakes. There were two world wars and depression, and it showed I mean I'm putting my life is like it shows that work and of more me oriented and we go through these things alone and then suddenly, here's this collective, involuntary life quake that we're all going through. But since you did teach that we're going to talk about the two
I think what happened was when we first went in it. There was a period of profound denial like we're: gonna stay home
we're gonna beat it and things are going to go back and, of course, doesn't want to.
but have we now know some months into the that we're not going back so the thing I want to say is that the x,
Europeans have going through. What I think is very profound, and now I want to address the point you just made about how it feels one of the things that surprised me most, but that
a very clear and frankly is not in the literature of human psychology and development that I have seen- and God knows, I know that literature trading adventure very well is the fees disruptors they tend to club, they tend to gather together.
When you get fired. You know you: u a car, just when you're going to move your daughters,
now to have and eating disorder
and your mother, mind you'd cataracts surgery, and I think that vat is what I've been thinking about it the pandemic, because I think that what had I struggled with what name this
for months. I couldn't think around like. Why was it happening? And I eventually came:
call it a pile up from Michael
oh blacker, my movies, you know where the first car stops
the second car wreck than in the neck and an excellent and the next one than the next one, and so some of this is coincidental somebody's
like a last straw, but really what I've become convinced, as happened in a lot of cases it.
If our immune system get to weaken, it gets weakened
I won a difficult thing, never going through in so when something that is small, that we might be able to be.
Act comes along. We get sick and a second time and down something is going on the pandemic. So the pandemic is a massive pilot
We have this economic challenge. We have the emotional challenge for working from home were recently having to adjust our work life balance. You do. I have a job. I quit my job
the care of my children like? What am I gonna do with my region, parents. This is what I'm facing
your facing what everybody is facing? And so I think that our immune system is weakened and so therefore other problem
that we have some problem in our marriage, a drinking problem.
an anxiety problem, something that may have been tat down when we're just.
The rush of normal life, seems more acute because without much
power in our emotional metabolism systems in order to be back so, but within this framework, how do you think about the fact that
People of color or the economically disadvantaged have just taken so much more of a hit. Would you
think of it there, their lives have had way more life. Quakes disruptors- pile ups heading into this. So that's what made them more vulnerable right. So I think I think a couple things about this. First of all, in general, this is a situation where it doesn't discriminate against anybody. Anybody can get the virus, but what's happened to you,
in certain communities and certain families in certain individuals who are already had a weakened immune system because of economic disadvantages or structural racism, or any other reasons. This has exacerbated those problems.
with exactly the same point, but there is another dimension to this. Actually that I think, is very interesting because economic don't get to talk about this, but we have the luxury of time here. The pandemic is a collective, involuntary, likely Russia going through another collective by quick and is likewise matter and if the protest movement- and I think it's interesting question that we may spend DEC
AIDS trying to unravel is the why. Why was it? George, Gordon Brianna, Taylor and Ahmed Armoury, I'm here in Georgia, has we're having this conversation. Why now, when these problems have been your arguably for four hundred years and this particular problem, certainly for dozens, if not hundreds of months, I think the answer is because of the pilot phenomenon, which is to say BP
Collective body of the country was already weakened by the pandemic
highlighted the problems that we have been.
down, and so suddenly one of the things that manifested is a collective voluntarily, because we wanted to do something. There is it. There was some act of agency,
Of course, another thing that we can get into this conversation is right. These life works for me
vacuums, and there are times when we think the building blocks that give us meaning, and I of course have three
my book the abc of meaning. One of them is agency what we do
two may create? One of them is belonging our relationships, friends, neighbours, colleagues and the sea as a cause, a calling
higher than ourselves and what happens and might quickly
ray rebalance them
suddenly in the middle of a pandemic? Quite quick, we decided we want to do something and we want,
a cause- and we want
a community, that's a b and c and my model and out we go into the streets because it had been building up. Our immune system is weakened and got some almost like a perfect example like race can be not just negative, but also positive. We keep teasing, they took it and I promise will get a budget one more short of
foundational question here. You talked about life now being non linear. What changed
when was it linear and what came to disrupt that? I continue, I think, a lot about this question, but let me tell you what happened because it was kind of super interesting wishes to say: go back.
for years now. It was one of those moments in my lifetime. I feel like I want to spend the rest of my time to understand. I, like I pulled the book off of a bookshelf and the bookcase open
in their turn out to be another book into the home of the room in the library. If you know what I'm saying, but it was like wait, a minute
when I'm worried about. You know. One told me that I was seekers passage way in the library and now I'm in this new rule and here's. What was it?
what was in the new room. Was this idea that for me was new and electrifying, which was our lives, have shapes and every cow
sure has a kind of power dogmatic shape and that's how we think our lives are going too far.
and so what I mean by that is how we look at the world affects how we look at our. Why so many ancient world, you know
I do not, of course, a major role, thereby books having on the Middle EAST. Looking at stories of religion- and
for reality in politics and conflict-
and yet you we're all they had no linear time. So they thought life was a cycle because
was the agricultural calendar and so to every season, turn turn turn and they thought life with a cycle the Bible in the west.
Introduced as the idea of your time
and, as you know, in my book, I found these things in the middle ages. They literally had these hundred
your life with a staircase up to middle age, you then peak, and then you go.
case up to middle age. You then peak and then
You go down.
and women alike. Ok, that means no new loved forty, no second careered fifty
divorce and starting over at seventy, no moving to a new place, an opening a b at eighty? None of that straight up and straight down and what's important about
That is the way we want. Rapid was the opposite. Middle age was the bottom. So this all changes with the birth of science Andrew plus years ago,
when suddenly this was the industrial revolution, and so suddenly life was linear. So if you think the first century of psychology, you have been asleep.
in this as anybody in the last ten years, p o j with linear childhood development, Freud Psycho, sexual stages,
in the early stages of moral development. Ericsson fact says that it was
huddled, I'm a conveyor belt, ok and the by stages of grief.
Heroes journey. These are all linear construction. This reaches its peak, would gale she he and passages she takes some flimsy restart.
done by Damn Levinson at Yale. We interviewed for
people only man, Roger
You see I about thousand questionnaires about a mid life crisis in she. Popularize is the idea of a mid life crisis,
She says everyone does the same thing and authorities in their fortys and then everyone has a mid life crisis literate
down the says? It must start at thirty nine and must end at forty four and a half.
I'm and only interviewed man Elliot.
A regional came up with a mid life crisis idea. He said he didn't even talk to anybody. He did this method. Is you only revival
is a famous man
These are the women, because menopause throws the whole thing that shows you did its absurd. I can't say,
I didn't do these conversations in the seventies that it was too
the bunker, then
just landed because divorced budgets becoming popular dislocation, and there was a lot,
this going on, but now I can
how you that it does not apply its just glad war, but even
important. We now know that chaos, theory and complexity and neuroscience. We now know that life has periods of stability in periods of instability periods
period destiny. They call it a non period, a city with a blue.
been complexity and network. Here we now know that we understand that the world is complex and non linear
but we have an updated our view of our lives and TAT Dick, and you asked me to the beginning of this. You no kind of my
kind of my mission in some ways is to open up the
possibility that our lives can take all different shapes.
empowering thing in our lives.
And then what I want to do in the target is to empower you too then take control of your life transition, and I will tell you this book ever do miss, but their you'd be notice. I've never had something land like this.
and then this will reaction. People happened, but they're saying is. I feel relief I feel like.
I'm not alone that you have given me permission to have.
easy, difficult, upsetting mom in your life, but I've had an I've been suffering inside.
Whence, because a red said this shape thing is absolutely central. Among the last question, I asked in Egypt in
two hundred and twenty five three hour interviews was what shape is your life,
and people have all sorts of shake summer line somewhere circles somewhere objects in it.
turns out. People shapes reflect our priorities by which the ABC meaning that they care about
No harm alarm is only ask you: what what shape is your wife public? Just thinking about that? Have no, I have no idea. Ok, so tell me: what's the first thing, don't think about too much what shape embodies your life
The word circles coming to mind, but I dont have any data to support. It sounded like a nice thing to say
So what happened to me why I got into this. As I have a friend Michael, he grew up a kind of abused kid.
New Jersey was always interested in the arts and creativity. He became a be when it
the business and the Hare business Anna is an artist, and so what I m talking damn I've known him for a while- and I said what shape is your life, because I was obsessed with his question and he said a heart.
as the Euro stand, like I'm asking you what shape up. What's the ups and downs of your life is, I know the heart is the shape of my life. I'm like
Michael, you do understand, he's a Bruce. You don't understand. I'm telling you I dont look at my life as the ups and downs of my wife relationships are the most important thing to me. That's why it's on
and if I have these relationships in the absent
of my work life. I don't care about as much as it will there's something going on the world, but I have not been thinking about it and I need to like I just might
classes you know, and so this is what happiness I would ask people in it, and this was the hardest thing for me to figure out so cause people would say everything they sit, butterflies, they say
you know what they say. My wife Linda works without prayers and she said a light bulb. Emmy people would say
twists and turns, and hearts and houses, and I was like what it is like a party game like you're, doing
three in the morning a nobody cares.
We realise that
these abc of meaning and the shape corresponds to the embassies of me. So people who attended
work, oriented or creators. Often you throw me a little, but I wouldn't
Yes, you would have had a line like ours in line up and down line, because I think of my life
via my answer, it's an up and down lines, but that trends upward inexorably. Yes, trends
ok, because you're a creator and a writer- and that makes substance you ve had some upside down, but but some people, because we're agency
your agency oriented I'm agency oriented, but there's a lot of people out there that our relationship oriented my wife, Linda as you know, works with entrepreneurs around the rush. It she's, like my life, is a light bulb I'd like to help other people make their dreams come true,
but could be a boxing like if european summits have led us, because their into plant based medicine
So we all have these abc within US
and ABC. So I would say: agency, burst, timing,
credibly belonging oriented,
hands on tat, very family oriented broke. I myself have a lot of friends. I'm less cause oriented Linda is a sea a b, so she's cause first and then age
see and belonging as at the end for you. So how would you rancor ABC, I think, about your friend, Michael though, who said that his heart were the his life was shaped like art of abroad.
Being a book right now in one of the things I'm writing about. My thoughts on this are not fully formed and when they are fully formed, a most likely be just stolen from other people, but this notion of individualism rugged individualism, having a pretty pernicious in pact on
western mine, particularly western men, where, for me, my self worth my mood has for so long been caught up in the ups and downs of my career, whereas I was very moved and I think you were to buy what Michael say where, as you know like things can go up and down, but I am not so buffet it by those particular wins, because it really rests on relationships and that's a more collective view. I dont have the answer yet to the ABC question, but that's what's on my mind as I listen, you speak most of the answers in most of the ideas. In
buck, we're, not gender, I would say we will talk about the phases of transition to wish which we're gonna go into in the second and the tools and the life quakes. Most of these were
gender. There were a few things that were gender, and I would say that the people who identified dental-
longing as their primary killer,
this is a meeting did slightly paper. Women over met not entirely Michael's. Man is a gay man, but he is a man, but what happens in the life quakes?
we shall check, is that while we we imagine some, maybe we ve been working very hard and either we ve been you choose to or we ve been forced to leave a job, and we say why spend more time
family, or maybe we bear a primary caretaker Amby Book,
an empty nestor or love one
who are you know, an aging parent that we're taking care of dies, and we say we want to give back or
Do we ve been giving back and we burn out, and we say we want to do something for ourselves.
so some people were cause oriented from
later on might want to do something more for themselves. So the way I think about this visually and made it is within our own
vacuous you're thinking about your book, his lady justice right, but the two scale think of lady justice as having three scales
One of those is agency and models as belonging, and one of those is cause and various
I'm in our life we take pebbles and we move on from one to the other to rebalance because we tend to eat or choose to or get forced to be too to oriented
toward one of those at times in our lives, and if we get to
waited waited and one which is naturally gonna want change. So that's the point I want to make the ABC though people tend to, as they have a kind of a
construct here to use the psychological term, there's one that's kind of our defining one. We do all have all three of them in us, and but we
for change back to the idea of matrimony I'd like to completely reject the idea that you're one thing or the other, but you have one
language forever or one trade that you need to exercise.
In your work, life or one aspect of your personality that you need to display. I think, then, that is a legacy to use the constructive. This conversation of the linear, like that, you take a test at twenty two and determine a bunch of things about Europe.
and I can decide every decision that you make the rest of your life. That is a real disservice, we'd, better people, because in fact, we ve
We change renewed manure and that something that we should embrace and I want to reject the idea. That is one thing: that's who you are and you're stuck there. Twenty two on now that you're a judge or the core thesis of everything I've. My team and I do under that ten percent happier banner, which is that the mind is tradable.
yes and that's radically, empowering good news. I would answer along those lines, your question to say that I think I am in a b c endeavouring to gently transition to busier interesting.
But that that everything I know about you,
public life in your writing totally makes some Sweden with. I think I am a culture, it it and wired to be pretty selfish and I dont believe the change happens effectively or successfully with a sledge hammer. I think it happens through the pleasure centres of the brain and
That was the route the Buddha took, to the extent that I understand the route the Buddha took and so seeing that the bee in the sea make me happier than just the aim has been their route that I'm taking
toward structure in my life in that direction, and also doing a lot of meditation practices that incline you in that direction. So again I'm a Mr Ten percent. So it's not
overnight transition- and I don't think it something like a bully myself into. But it's it's a worthwhile project. Solvency took a smoker propose very well expressed. I want to highlight what you said.
Throw a line that I wanna buy some attention on the second, which is that the brain is wired. That way when I was talking earlier about
Where do these power dogmatic shapes come from that? Come from how we look at the world. I tell me I'm cultural age. We thought it was cyclical in the middle ages, which was a religion dominated age, we probably have followed a certain
and the idea of science and company an idea which is fundamental to the beginnings of
the Galileo and the beginnings of the whole idea of a western science, a change- and I said it change
We now know that life is not linear and one of the reasons we know. That is because we can look inside the brain and it turns out that the brain does not only talk about the first century.
But has mirror new up near neurons, has the capacity to change, has the capacity and the desire to make itself that is
fundamentally a non linear way of understanding the mind and make it more. Science has helped us to change how we view the world, but we are laggards in changing how we look at our wives. That's the first thing I want to say in it
campaign will take up a conversation that you ve been teasing along, which is that what we ve learned?
and then you been at the forefront of this conversation for the last decade, is when her happiness or habits, but we can break down these essential
Pools of our lives into these small components into smaller
ends and small victories and ten percent and movements
were there and that can have a big change in our lives.
So we know that our supply,
It's not gonna get souffle you're, our tennis game
Can I get better? We know that we have to
on our bodies. We know that we
some work on our relationships. Transitions like how we get through these turning point in our lives have been left out. Life is in transition, like we were talking about this book that I wrote. This is the first major book on my transitions in forty years
the first new model that we're about to discuss in fifty years. You can actually say Eve almost a hundred years. This is something has been out a favor, and so I've been sitting on this story.
As I said, five years right, that we need employment. Transitions like everybody needs to understand why this is the skill we ve gotta have and no one's teaching it to us, and I've been bursting at the seams to tell people this and then prove,
something I could spend the rest of my life trying to understand it lambs at this moment what
everybody knows that we're in a life. Quick and everybody knows we gotta make some change and no one's. How to do it and that's why there's this visceral hunger to discuss? What is they on? Every battle is twenty six printings unless twelve days it's like people
have a hunger for this, and the moment has demanded of it and so that attitude that you have about micro, medium sized changes as the route to big changes. That is singing. My
and that's like to add transitions too bad group of things that we know can get better with ten percent incremental change, her them more. My conversation with Bruce filer right after this staying in full has never been more important. Information is coming in us faster than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bride milky from ABC News. In every week days, we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes: straightforward reporting, dynamic interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust, always credible, always solid start here from ABC News. Twenty minutes, every we get smart speaker or you favour podcast app,
So let's talk at long last about the tool kit programmed time. Thank you very much for having. I think people by now
our probably very interested in learning. So what can we do to handle these life? Quakes better, should get into a quick, and I would say, gonna want to things him. I'm gonna get some review would be some.
but ass, you, but we welcome the chinaman. We either make a two hundred and seventeen item to do it
we're gonna be manner, came we're gonna, get through it and we're gonna like master at this moment, or we get stuck frozen in place and are in a better position on our backs.
Look at a map of these, as I have done in certain patterns, become apparent. So the first thing to know is it that there's gonna be part of this process that you're good at so transitions have three phases. The first phase is what I call the long goodbye where you were saying goodbye to the lipid. You left behind
The second phase is what I call them messy metal were your shedding certain habits. Mindsets lifestyles
and you are creatively inventing new self of yours and then
space is the new beginning, where you're finally going to unveil this new south to the rest of the world and update your life story. So there are three phases so for the first century. People talked about this because I know you like the gig
Science amounted to got besides for a minute here. This idea was invented by guy name or an old man get up. It was a german anthropologist a hundred years ago who invented the phrase, writes a passage he worked out. That would be a phrase you invented,
in fact his translator, says in its own right a passage. It should be right of transition and he said that
Are these three phases and you must do them in order because hello,
was the linear life moment. First, you must take it
I then you must go to college. Did this betwixt in between and then you have the new beginning, cake heat
can did in fact, too
leaving one room
walking down the hallway.
Entering a neuron turned up, is totally wrong
There are these three phases gods very well captured, but
we're gonna one room, you're, Norway up, you forget something in the old room. You go back and then there's no. You stick around the corner, but you're not ready for you go back to the message now. Imagine if your divorce did. You say you are divorced person with children.
You can be starting a new relationship in that new room, but you're still.
Urging with your old spouse
in the old room your costly going back. So it turns out that people do these
out of work. Ok, so
Everybody is good at one of these three phases. I call your transition superpower and
one of them you're about it, you're, transition, kryptonite, okay. So, for example, some people about his anger by maybe there people, please ers, maybe they don't
disappoint people. They stick around too long there, overly scared of what's gonna come in so they stay around, but some people are good at saying goodbye, ok,
I thought you were a woman Nina Collins whose mother died she's a mixed raised. Daughter of
a mother and a jewish father. The father
not in the picture. Her mother dies at nineteen
and you have to raise her younger brother, she's gonna have,
we marriages and twice as many jobs. She said my my
died. I'm very good. It saying goodbye, like my therapist,
that I under attached to things so some people about it,
I, and some people are good. Something with a messy metal.
When I originally called it, the muddle, the middle
talking to woman Rosemary Daniel in my hometown.
About a Georgian who
we took childhood or mother took her own life, she had three marriages and first husband was abusive to her. The second husband
confessed to insist on their honeymoon. The third has
leaves her and then she
He said I'm tired of being with these kind of Archie people.
when she said I want a macho man and she went and sugar market.
Leaving the soldiers she like lived on oil tankers, she dated only soldiers and bikers and she married an army.
but they ve been married for thirty years and so
I said how was the muddle middle when she's like every time I loved, and I was sexual freedom for me. I finally got over all of my childhood hang ups and it was
called, but I loved it
total guy Rob Adams, who was imagine consulted
from the MID West
the tired to run the Simon Pierce Glass
company a family on glass company and remind you, may have gotten dumping for your wedding from the Simon Peres, glass company. He starts work a month after the great recession sales drop by a third in the first quarter, and it just wasn't gonna work,
and he said, he's stuck around wait too long before it. Finally, he said
balancing goodbye like being a leader. I, like being a mentor, I move my family to Vermont. Once I find
said goodbye, I'm ok
Like I liked the messy middle I made lists, I consulted with twenty people and a few months later he moved his family to Africa and he started running a nonprofit, so the most
conveys for most people, the Nazi middle. Some people are good at even a new beginning. What you think that most people would be great out. It's actually difficult for some people. I talked to woman, visible, didn't you, she was born in pain.
When she came from a broken family, but no one. Her family even came to her college graduation from Penn state. She was homeless
in car for a while the sheep
worse radio- and she takes a job at this
company no never heard I've called America online selling ads
in years and ten report later she's a power
how's, add executive in New York, city shuffles had three migraines a week since she was three years old. She wants onto a conference
one day, early no one knows she's there and her colleagues are talking about how sour she is. She goes home comes through her Amex bells Watson. The next day, quits on the spot, stopped going out to eat, stop shopping, cutter cable. Since I can live for a while. Like ten days then she's watching local access television. She sees a conversation with somebody and she says: that's what I want. I want to help people get back,
she rose and light coach school. She flies the Santa FE three days in her head on the table. The teacher walks and wiser have on the table. We set up. I've had three
Migraines a week since I was freedom where the system did you just come to be tailored to office. Put turn a chair hypnotizer her. This has never had a migraine since today sees the countries leading medical hypnotist. She worked for the students veterans. She says she's made this change
She is embarrassed to unveil herself. She sits over her computer writing and rewriting are linked in profile for six months, because people can, I think,
we are, I dislike powerhouse job and now I'm like a medical hypnotist and finally, she precedent- and she tells this incredible. We because she's fine. We share with others that she's in the new. Why so? Every
he's gonna, be good at one of these phases and bad. It's kind of my first advices running.
doing the book as work if the process of figuring out which, when you're good
in which, when you're bad at let's start with the one you're good at you, don't have to do I'm in order. There are not
with the one you're good at build some confidence, because somebody
there's, gonna be difficult, and we want to work our way to bear. As we go through these transitions, he talked earlier about in terms of the toolkit about ritual yeah, there's seven tools. It turns out most of these ideas.
I just came out of these. Things are not living in the larger. The just came out of this incredible analysis. I did of all these, so the first of the tools is accepted right. It's like accepted the cinema
I look two hundred and dry by people in the eye and I asked, but I would ask you think of sunlight
vision you have been in the past or they ran right now. Lets them
just a motion you struggled with in transition
I'm sadness that I have taken parents to back. I'm gonna be this. Having this conversation with you, my hometown of Sudan and the Lugano leave and go see my dad's ism hospice as we speak, sir. So the number one emotion the people's struggle.
is a hospice. As we speak, Sir said, the number one emotion that people's struggle with his fear fear of the unknown but gonna happen. How can I live without money like how many
Through this, what you can do you like to have a child with special needs? The number one is fear and we're too generous welcome to the club sadness. I'm sad. I like that old, south I'd, I'd, awaked bad life. Would
vibrant parents or a living spouse or having legs are having a job. The third back to your male female thing- the third is shame
by the way, most of literature, shame suggested gendered and it is not gender. Just as many men feel shame as women feel shame. I am ashamed that I lost my job
have status. I am ashamed. I have to ask for help. I am ashamed that what I did when I was drinking too much. I am ashamed that I have a child with an addiction or a child with special needs and when I walk in the grocery store people dont know what to say to me. So they turn around and they walk away dear sadness shape so step number one. When I call except it is to accept the fact, the city of your situation accede out loud that this is what did what it was. I asked the question to say: I'm sat.
That's incredible! Power cut me to the second. So how do people deals again? I would say to you in these conversations. I won't let me ask you how you doing with your sadness. I talk about it with me
my wife and my brother? So some people talk about it, a lot of people to write it down,
There are some power in writing down a lot of you
we'll do kind of what I do, which is. I called buckle down by shut up and go to work. You know when it will appear, I would say it consumes near lot. It's like stop complaining and go to work, but eighty percent eight zero use rituals in some way
Some external gesture: they hold a memorial service, they bury something in the backyard. They hang up a flag, they wear a particular piece of clothing. They get a tat
Two I talked a woman is a re Rosenberg. She went the went off a year.
was a bone marrow donor to her brother. Shall fight became a strange with her mother. She went on fifty two first dates. She actually many spreadsheet of
We think that she wore on the first data showing one on seven second dates, and she didn't want to forty percent, then thought on the second day with one
some ass. He had done with the other one, and she just like this isn't working. So she said what my biggest beer
heights she jumped out of an airplane. I turned around
and this has been an eye lovers- marriage for thirty years. He got
about marriage came out. His gay went to a sweat lodge
the little away kind of sweat, ouch, that's out if you will the old life. So what these rituals are is that they are gestures to yours.
south end to those around you that Europe,
owing to relate transition, and it is difficult for you, it's almost like a state
that you are now doing this and you're saying goodbye to that old life. But here's something interesting Dan. I actually think it may be. The cultures,
Have you got for this summit stating it but I'm speculate. I should maybe the cultures how something but are good.
in bad out, because I think, when the pandemic first hit, that we ve all been battered saying goodbye.
All clung to the idea that we were going back and that's why. I think that this has been more difficult than it necessarily needs to be.
and I think that now that we realise that we're not going back, I feel I put the country needs collectively is some.
Joel someone not just the dead.
If we were morning the dead, that would be an opportunity,
to a more in all of our lives that are not coming back, the in person school,
the seeing our loved ones, the going out to eat the heavy feeling, like you had some agents.
in control of your lives.
we have this need for ritual and I think it's aching because we have not been doing it in the pandemic. It's one of the tools, that's a very powerful away to say that old life as much as I might have liked. It is not coming back a need to put it behind me. There's a reason that religion for three thousand years has been built up. Rituals is big.
Because it has working. Someone is interested religion. I feel like saying we ve lost something by turning our backs on religion. The way we have, but people seem to understand it into their body, seemed to craven
which is why people do these rituals, even though they often don't identified ends rituals at super interesting see. Minutes
seven tools, I think we ve touched on at least two, yet we ve done too so these two were associated with the longer. By with
was just stick with it chronologically, so genuineness, messy metal and you ve said goodbye, but there still
bits and patterns of your old life. There are sticking around and we gotta get rid of some of those okay. So that's why it s only shedding ok and some people shed certain things could be an attachment.
Me. It could be getting out everyday, putting a tie or a pair of shoes and going to work. It could be.
sitting down with a love one who's, not there could be walking. If you dont have you so you have to shed certain habits and what s interesting about. This is some of those habits. People like that they just can no longer do its ear of wonder, aging parents if they are not bear any more
can have a conversation if they have mental in pyramid or you can in my case, walk when I had cancer runs on crutches for two years.
So there were lots of things that I couldn't do you have to share, but people also it turns out shed things, but they didn't like about themselves.
Ok, so there might be a habit that you have that you didn't like. Maybe your people, please or maybe you drank too much
I want a womanly be whence who went
a really difficult year compelled her
to my pilot to leave a marriage.
Unhappy with and then she ultimate
We have job and she said I had to shed the habit
and every time I walked in the door, because I was so unhappy. I opened the fridge and started Edith, and so she said
in a pile up. You know, I'm gonna, do I'm out something of the pile that I want to change and she finally stop. Yo Yo dieting, broke her patterns and lost sixty pounds so peak something about yourself that you didn't like.
Use this as an opportunity because you're in this state of change your end dislike transition.
gonna get rid of that. That's what comes next and what that does is open. Your way to one of the things
I mean- maybe I should have seen this coming, but it was a bit of a surprise to me astonishing acts of creativity, people at the bottom of their lives. I mean the bottom up, your one, I'm think. Everything's come back for you and, like Malta Point bandstand turn to incredible execrated. They sing the dance they paint.
I talked to a woman who is involved in a faculty scandal at Emory lost. Her job was to relationship stripping bird houses and she went to the local corner are fair and she started selling them and now she gives them to galleries. I talked to a woman who was writer at Fox NEWS. Left Fox NEWS, denounced her conservatism changed her political beliefs went through a depression. She said,
He started playing ukulele because it was forgiving and everything sounds good. I'm ukulele and she you away,
her way through a depression.
A woman. Alan came in Alabama who had stomach cancer. She was the caretaker
her husband take our. She believes that the husband retires far job teaching chemistry.
the university now Alabama remembered the jet of childhood dream
of being a ballerina set her
Driving Asian merrily
other than one or two doing so, she's trusting adult ballet items.
Zachary Herrick, with one black in Kansas and adopted by weight family wandered through life, ended up in the military. He had his face. Shot off by the Taliban, thirty one surgeries between the Tipp of his nose and the Tipp of his chin, including having his tongue some back on.
He was multiple times suicide radiation on the verge of taking his on Might as a mother moves from Kansas to help him recovering in matters that you should start cooking Zack. So he starts cooking Zack I be examined like the girls love it want to go and it then he started writing poetry and then he starts
painting and he's describing this splattering paint on the canvas he's like you know that guy Jackson Pollock like him, I quitted it will. If I talk to your high school
about playing self in Indiana and such like you're gonna, like start writing, poetry and and and pushing salmon, and like spluttering paint on the canvas you that's what I thought I was stupid, so used to get up.
I still need by spluttering the enemy reports. Now I splatter the canvas with pain, so people turn to
radical acts of creativity and it's what creativity has met from the opening phrase of the Bible, there's chaos and then God created,
we are creating ourselves new and people, mostly people, I would say who don't think of themselves as creator
We do when the pandemic first hit. It was almost like a cliche of cliches. What do we do? We baked soda bread
bingo, we sour note our way through the pandemic
Does the commissioner? I was the only person. America was not surprised, but this is creativity by getting your hands in and make
Something new is again your mind and bodies and souls way of saying
you have imagination. You can imagine that bread or that birdhouse or that
Splatter painting being good, it's the same
dear back them your neurons,
imagining that you can make yourself an incredible execrated created. Try something new is one of these tools in this talk about an hour ago transition you wanna, just keep going with the other ones. How could going bearing the need for a question? Is it
just keep going? Well, I decide if I said something really. I wanted to get the last two and a second cause
tools. We should the phases, though we have accepted and market with the first one and we have shut in created and we'll get to the last. One is second
One of them is not associated with time, because people can do it all three or they just do it once and that a sheriff find someone to go through.
We're because one of the things I members on cancer Doone, I would sit in my home in Brooklyn. I was unconscious for two years now and make a bad per year because I had so much came out and not my body was just been destroyed or save itself and I'd look out the window, not you not. On crutches.
don't have cancer. Like you, don't know what it's like. You feel, incredibly alone, an isolated and scared. You just feel alone topic.
Find someone to share it with, but here was the revelation again. I was asking people about to ask you like what kind of advice from a friend or love one.
was most help and before I tell you the categories that turn I'm just asking the moment doing right now, have you got a piece of advice.
My friend mental or love, one, that's been especially helpful for you. Yes, my friend Josh, who
It has already buried his mother and has an aging father. When I was at a particularly difficult moment of my parents aging, he said something to the effective: do not overlook the sweetness that there is sweetness in this that you will feel for your parents as disorienting an horrifying and, as it often is, don't overlooked. That part. That's been a really great way to reorient myself. So when I discovered in his answer to this question,.
Is that people have different kind of phenotypes for advice. What kind of support from friends our loved ones are men towards they respond to so I ended up kind of coding for this cause. That's come about my mind, works, and so some people, like comfort,
I love you down, you'll get through it. I believe in some
People like when I called mergers, which is what you just described. I want you to
But why do you think about this
Maybe you should start dating into her. Maybe it's
to go on. Linkedin start looking for a job right or maybe you need to exercise a little bit more. Maybe you need to reach out to that person and reconcile so some people like measures, some people, like I'm a bit like this. Actually some people like slackers.
And I came up with this work as I was talking to someone who she was and yeah I was coming to this period. I was both my parents and I thought I was going took over this company and I didn't get the job and I would
wine into a friend and made the fringes. So let me upside a face like Gub share too
what stage and moonstruck twice and said. Yes,
and stop complaining. Unlike movement, we realise that some people, like I love you dance, but enough. Ok, I'm
Listen to this is the fourth time we talked
you need to go to death and stop complaining so p
kind of have these few know types and so kind of my advice to people when nudging people is don't ask
that the kind of advice you respond to is, but the person you're talking to what's the best way to describe it, is to talk about me dad.
So I have identical girls, as you know, you didn't ivy hidden from the garden of Eden, untidy per
Finally, I want to Georgia, where I grew up and
I'm a writer than for one time, and now
in high school, and they want nothing to do with my advice, but when our middle school they would bring their papers to me and I could never guess what they
and finally I started to say what do you want, and so I would ask this question: do you
we tell you how good it is. Are you want me to help you make it better.
I'm gonna, we went through every generation and then finally, we discovered that, like the best answer for us was both like
how'd you do I want you to come for me. I want you to tell you that is good, and then I want you to indulge me and make it better. So my advice,
people these dont go alone, but don't zoom and feel free to say to somebody. I want the advice. I just need love or I don't just need love.
I need help. Point me in the right direction, but again
This has a thing and let's bring
it down into the component parts and try to get better so share. It is one of them and so the last two
mostly associated with a new beginning and one is to unveil it
prove it now. We finally have this new you. So let's go
I have one of the things I ask. People were tummy three personal projects right three things now that you're back founding a gloom again like starts a new projects. Ok rituals turn out to be very powerful at the end, not just the beginning as a way to mark that you're through it. I talked to allow
we're, who was a high powered border, was diagnosed in his forties with Parkinson's and the beginning. He wanted to fight any need to exercise he ran.
I'm making this up seven marathons on seven continents in seven days as a fundraiser for the market to discuss
the Asian, you gotta team of people when they hired a plan and they raised a lot of money and at the end he was through this. He now has for a long time here.
four quietly didn't let anybody know, then he did his big gesture to raise
money inside. You know what it's time to tell my colleagues, my dad has Parkinson's and he went to the stupid. The beginning, you didn't
only he didn't, he didn't want people to know where to treat them differently and got to appoint. We couldn't
be quiet anymore. So, in the case of this lawyer, he got a tattoo that, at the end of
That was why I got through this period. I am now accepting
I'm not gonna sharing, so people use all sorts of rituals. I like it.
I don't you know the japanese living Japan's you and they have that.
room at all this.
Michel reddened, black dolls and you buy them blank and you paid with ink one eye when you start a project, and then you paint the second I at the
It's called opening the second I so that's
You won value New Celtic, Elisa Luigi with filling profiles your now going forward.
Last one gets his back to where this conversation starting ended, update your personal is to understand
Let you have fundamentally a story about your life that you were telling yourself.
Did you get through? What is thy transitions? You want to add a new chapter of your life. It says you went through a difficult time. You got through it and the key there is to find something constructive from
This time it sounds like finding. The meaning in the situation is important. I live quick is fundamentally a meaning vacuum. It cuts sucks all basic ways that we made meeting in our lives out of our lives. Might quick is an invaluable and what a light transition and fundamental yours is a meaning making exercise if the way to constructed the meaning out of a meaning. The back you I like this kind of minor old fashioned, icon fashioned things. Bringing about a minor
Idea from sociology from maintaining these called an autobiographical occasion, the recent was a minor things, because the person came up with a mobile demeaning said in an alibi.
publication is a job interview. The first time you see a doctor, it's a first date,
when you had the occasion to tell you that my story, any light transition- is an autobiographical occasion. Eighty percent of the people that I asked this question of said that it was a narrative about where they had to rethink and we visit the basic way, but they tell her story. I used to be this, and now I am that I used to be a person with living parents. Now I have dying parents or dead parents who used to be a merry person. Now, I'm not a very personal used to be a person who drank up a time now, I'm sober by the way, one in four of the stories I did how to.
in some way, you have to re write that story in a fundamental way. I got store that could be by thy once they like stop what you're doing right now and listened to that story. That's going on in your head, like who you are where you came from. I sent you right now. You have to rush to the hospital because you have a love one there
you would be telling a story I couldn't live when it is and how you know them and what they mean to you. That story. You tell yourself about who you are. That's not part of you. That is you in a fundamental way. Life is the story. Did you tell yourself? That's one things.
Learn to neuroscience is that our brains are wired to create stories, but we think of these stories. Oh my god. We think it destroys the euro. You know there's a happy and because we want to be like to be a fairytale, but the wolf shows up if the wolf,
makes it a fairytale but half halfway through the story. It's a wolf or a dragon, or an ogre or apparent
MAC or a tornado who were a downsizing or a death. You can't banish them
What can you dont want to banish double? Because if you banish the wolf, you banish the Euro and the Euro becomes the Euro, because the hero figures out how did to feed the world so life quakes are feature not bug. Collapsible, that's why this book is called life is in the transition. Is William James. Like back to my idea
right, outdated ideas, William James Father of modern technology.
A hundred years ago, life isn't the transitions as much as in the terms connected, and that's what I'm saying it because here's the thing we haven't talked about just how long these take and the answer five years.
and I talk to incredibly articulate people, and I would say how long this transition taken every by our people got incredibly tongue tied and they were coming through use of use seven years and, unlike guess, what the
Average and the most common answer was five years and so here's the thing if you go.
the three five of these life twice a year and a gonna take four five. Six years as twenty five years,
half of your adult life you're going to avoid transition. If you look at it as a whole
you have to greet and grinder way through you're wasting half of your life, and so yes, it is a feature not
If you look on it as a bargain, you get angry at it by the way that
I'm grumpy about the word resilience Kalash. Even the word resilience is an industrial charm from a spring spring would pop out and how resilient it was with how it went back part of my grumpy earnest about resilience. Is it
normalizes the idea that we're going back and some people may go back but more
MR going sideways or forward or a different place altogether, and if we look at
as a period that we just have to suffer through until we go back, we are
sing, half of our lives and we are missing what every great scripture every great
mythology, Moses, leading the Israelites. The Buddha goes into the wilderness, Andy's go into the forest
You name it Odysseus, Orpheus
or to ease they all go
into the war is now where the growth occurs. So I'm saying
life is in transition. If you look
this period as one you're gonna supper with you, gonna suffer and you're not gonna grow. If you look at it as this option,
he's gonna, be painful, I'm not trying to talk it through.
Be pollyanna at all. It's gonna be tough, messy males, going
Lastly, the longer buys gonna be long. The new begin
he's going to be hard, but these are opportunities for growth and renewal. This is when the heroes are made and if I've learned one thing, it's that we all have to be the hero of your own story. So we have to look at these periods as vital
periods of our life and, instead of being overly excited or intimidated, understand you were back in temperature that you can take small steps. You can accumulate, small wins,
I have seven tools, everybody does some of them. Naturally, nobody did all of them and everybody wanted to get better at it, and so what I
you're to stay as whatever you're gone through right now I was
You are, and I met these people and a lot of them work.
Worse, some of them were better. Some of them were different. Some of them were similar. They didn't just give me hope. Dandy gave me practical things that I can do tat night come
Euro one a week from now and one three months for guy doesn't, while the number one things people are saying, I'm gonna put this on myself
something I needed now, but I knew something different. We must now so, whatever your story
When will you come on his journey with me? You're gonna find people that are where you were findings
do so that whenever you're dealing with whatever my transition Urim, we could do and all the better and a lot more effectively like we can get through this. There is now a job here we can be practicable together. Well said: that's a beautiful place to leave. It burst excellent job. Thank you very much, and you damn it's great to have this conversation with you think, a broader doing, big thanks to Bruce and big thanks as always to the team work incredibly, are to make this.
a reality. Samuel Johnson, our senior producer Moorish, nitrogen, is our producers are sound. Designers are met Boeing and, on your Sheikh from Ultraviolet Audio Maria were tell us our production coordinator. We get a ton of wisdom from our Tpa colleagues, such as joint point make Toby, then Reuben Levin and, as always, big. Thank you to my ABC news com.
Ryan Kessler, Josh Coherent policy on Wednesday, with a deep dharuma take on the subjects of life. Transitions are guest, is Philip
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