“Narcissist” is a word that gets thrown quite a bit, including by me -- often, semi-facetiously, about myself. But until this conversation, I didn’t actually know what the word meant. My guest today is Keith Campbell, who’s been researching narcissism for more than 30 years. He’s got a new book called The New Science of Narcissism. In this episode, we talk about the difference between garden variety narcissism and the diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, the difference between grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism, what to do with if you’re married to a narcissist, how to identify your own narcissism, and what he calls the CPR method for narcissism control.
Where to find Keith Campbell online:
Website: https://wkeithcampbell.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/wkeithcampbell
Book Mentioned:
The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement by Jean M. Twenge and W. Keith Campbell: https://bookshop.org/books/the-narcissism-epidemic-living-in-the-age-of-entitlement/9781416575993
The New Science of Narcissism by W. Keith Campbell: https://bookshop.org/books/the-new-science-of-narcissism-understanding-one-of-the-greatest-psychological-challenges-of-our-time-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/9781683644026
Other Resources Mentioned:
Chelsea Sleep: https://psychology.uga.edu/directory/people/chelsea-sleep
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche: https://shambhala.org/teachers/chogyam-trungpa/
Sigmund Freud: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sigmund-Freud
Additional Resources:
Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live
Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide
Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/kieth-campbell-284
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From eighty feet. This is the ten percent happier pot Guest Dan Harris Hague, as you may have heard me discuss this on the show before, but throughout the pandemic we be giving free access to people who are working on the front lines that includes teachers, healthcare workers. So far we ve, given
free access to more than fifty thousand people. People were taking on an enormous amount of stress while their working on behalf of the rest of us and we recently expanded that free coverage to people who are involved
the? U S postal service, we wouldn't be able to provide this level of free access to so many people without the support of our paid app subscribers. So if that's you
say, thank you and if it's not you and your interested, let me just take a moment to encourage you, because when you are paid subscriber, you not only support our work and our free access campaigns, but are also getting access to our bevy of world class teachers, meditation courses and coaches. So if your interested, please go to ten percent dotcom, Slash Subscribe, that is ten percent. One word all spelled out: dot com. Slash subscribe, go forth, hey guys. Narcissist is a word that gets thrown out quite a bit, including by me often semi facetiously, about myself. But until this conversation I didn't actually know what the word met. My yesterday's key Campbell he's been researching narcissism for more than thirty years, he's got a new book out called the new science of narcissism.
And in this episode we talk about the difference between garden, variety narcissism and the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. We also talk about the difference between grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism. What to do if you're married to a narcissist
how'd. I doubt if I your own narcissism and what he calls this cpr method for narcissism control. So there's a lot here plus despite the heaviness of his chosen research area. Keith is a pretty funny guy. So here we go key camel are Keith nice to meet you thanks for coming on thanks, rather Madame lusher, I'm a little aaa.
He's going to this, because I feel, like you're gonna diagnosed me as a narcissist than within the first thirty seconds here, but will see all I don't diagnose everyone, I'm a researcher. I leave that to the practitioners. That's good, ok go back and breed. Let me just first get a sense of who you are. Why did you become interested in narcissism?
Well, it's been a long time. I most social personality psychologist day, study, then
graduate school- and there is a big interest in self enhancement- turns out that most people think they're better than they are. So if I go to class and say you on a ten point scale, how attractive argue that average,
there's more SAM about six or seven universal
How humble are you? The average person number six or seven on humility, pretty humble, not the most
tumble, but I'm pretty humble and most people think
your law, better driver than average. So our ego inflates it just what it does is an interesting question
but when I started looking at it back and grad school, I realize some people do this more than others, so some people are actually pretty nice. Some people are truly humble and some people are sort of
against and full of themselves and end narcissism is a tool that trade of narcissism is a way to look at this, its away to understand the ego a little better than without using nets. That's part
why I got into it. I mean for your interest, I sort of interested in non attachment and the non self from a Buddhist perspective, and I couldn't figure
the study that at all and narcissism
kind of gives the other way. So, instead of studying the lack of Vigo, let's just go the other way and study, ego and sort of out ego works and that sort of somebody reason to get into it. I guess I have suspected you to give me some horror story about being. You know, raised by a horrible snares, assist CEPT, father or so
like that block. I struggle with Vigo just like everyone, but this isn't a for researchers me search kind of situation. I just found it really interesting. So what is narcissism, because the word gets thrown around a lot by
me, but I am keenly aware that are actually know what I'm talking about.
This is most word likes. It people throw it around a lot and usually they mean somebody is kind of a jerk and
maybe a little bit follow themselves and that's not bad for a definition but
We talk about research, it's more complicated and really there sort of three definition
the primary one and and the one most people time, but when they talk about narcissism, is a personality trade. That means there's people who were
eye on the trade and low on the trade. Most people are somewhere in the middle and it's a personality trait. That is a combination of maybe a lack of empathy, maybe a sense of entitlement or some callousness to people,
but at the same time some drive and ambition, and maybe charisma and charm and extra version. So you get these interesting people who are both a little bit callous low but selfish, but the rules
though extroverted outgoing, a gigantic and they end up being your boss at work? They end up in
person you date because you met them and they seem so confident and charming to end up marrying them or beginning relationships with them. You watch people like this rise into celebrity status, because this is a good temperament for being
library, iron man in those Marvel movies is a good grandiose, narcissist and theirs is
form of narcissism, which we talk about the literature, but you don't see it as much in the world except in clinical setting to which is vulnerable narcissism, and this has that sense of entitlement and selfishness just like grandiose narcissism
some sort of core of self centered as yourself importance, but you're also vulnerable and a little bit easily threatened yourself,
teams unstable your little and secure, so these vulnerable narcissism were and secure, Narcissus end up becoming so depressed and anxious because they thought
People should appreciate how wonderful they are. People should acknowledge the genius, but there now
very outgoing they're, not very confidence at the end of depressed, and there have been therapy for depression, because no one understands great. They are so those you get. These two faces of not
this isn't it. You see one is more unstable and depressed, and once more grandiose and like a boy charismatic and charming one
the world one is going to therapy and when these things become extreme, when you get narcissism, that's extreme and inflexible, so you're kind of it.
Just somebody like you, yet you go on tv and yeah, confident charismatic and it's great, and then you go home and you do the same thing to your kids and you
I didn't want to play in here like. Let me tell you about my day get. Then it becomes a disorder. It starts to mess up your life because your narcissism is so extreme and it's so inflexible that it can become a disorder.
Which we call narcissistic personality, disorder and p d,
That is another way people use narcissism in the clinical ter, but that
very rare disorder, Sir Time one or two percent, and maybe people live and p d when we,
Think about it in the research world is a little more complicated than the normal sort of use of the term complicate a fascinating, so it sounds
like everybody somewhere on the spectrum. Yes, and then you got one or two percent: that's the Indian PD territory, but in a speck
is interesting because, as I was listening to you talk about grandiose and vulnerable narcissism, I was thinking while there are times in my life that I can interpret
back to from now where I would fit. Both of those description
absolutely and they can go together, they dont correlate too much. So what that means is people. Grandiose can also be vulnerable. People VON above can be grandiose, often easy. I'd, say condition of this right word, but a state of affairs when people vacillate between grandiose city and vulnerability. I do this.
Sal Sal and we'll be on this podcast, maybe a legend, and then I'm like I'm the most we personally
like a fat, am I hate myself then, like I'm gonna, be rich. My guide, everyone hates me, you kind of vast, lay between deflation and inflation and that something you see with both forms of Narcissus,
mounting vulnerability. A little more gives its associate with irredentism anxiety, which is why I do it more, but yet both of those poles are pretty active. So I once heard a critic of modern psychotherapy describing it as providing understanding without really
so that far you ve given me some understanding. But is there any thing to be done about this? Is it useful,
or in any way a relief to be able to understand where I may fit on the narcissism
From at any given moment or where anybody my orbit or anybody, I'm watching tv may fit on the spectrum. Yet this as a great phrase in our minds,
bride send knew the goal is to turn neurotic suffering into everyday unhappiness. You know the goal of therapy and it doesn't sound
that greater goal. You have just to be sad
like I'm a researcher I like I like to understand things even if it doesn't do any good, but I really do think it matters. So if I'm dealing with my own narcissism- and I am able to break down what's going on with me- I can maybe fix it better. So if my narcissism involves a sense of entitlement, if that's what really gets me into trouble, I can work on green
attitude, tune in to cut him so entitled all the time, one level but gratitude for my life. Maybe that make me little bit happier person. If my problem is I'm really and secure
Why? Because it may very well be more confident and sort of treat the vulnerability that way. If I take too many risks because
I'm too grandiose arrive, you'd I've taken financial risk all the time because of my confidence in over confidence, perhaps would I need to do sake, God that
risk taken too little primarily to hire somebody to double check my wrists taken dialogue and so by understanding that how narcissism works in the pieces, I think it a lot,
how you do dress it and a little more sophisticated way than just saying yeah. Your kind of full of yourself don't be full of yourself, so I think there's some good to it, but you know I'm in the business
no, I don't have to convince anyone else. Will you did write a whole book about that before this new book? The new science in our society did write a whole book about. You know how to handle it.
You're married to notice. I wrote a book called when you love a may loves himself when I started doing this. Work keep that book away from my wife. Now
that's why I wrote it because they kept going out with people and that's what every woman would sit guys didn't care. As I get my wife's pre hot, I guess she's narcissistic, I don't care, but the women would talk about all the time, and so I wrote a book really for women, but you know it's all about data, but that's the reason yeah. So what are the tools that we can use? You know if again we'd have to
run unless we ve got a true and pity on our hands, it might be useful to them
about where our partner is on the spectrum.
At any given moment and what are the tools we can use to sort of provide ourselves and them with some relief yeah? I take that.
Useful to think of it, I dont think going about and analyzed in your partners personality. All the type is really but you're in it
long time, maybe just make it work, but I think what you're saying is your enemy.
Somebody you're somebody, you gotta relationship with somebody that it's sought a clinical disorder but narcissism. Sir problem, so my wife's married me- and maybe I go look- I've got it put the kid second, because my careers first and I
this over and over and over, and it starts causing problems or may
I have issues with conflict, so my wife is a kid you know,
You could be a little nicer and I'm like why you tell me what to do. I'm doing all this work, you're is blaming me. Maybe you can be nicer.
So maybe the narcissism led into conflict in my relationship. You are not willing to come to soften up and take criticism, and so I think
you're standing in those kind of rough spots in the relationship and where the ego is getting in their messing up can be really important and been able just talk about it. S, just ego and
standing in breaking down it is useful to I can imagine
if you're dating somebody who's or married to somebody who's, pretty advanced on the spectrum of narcissism, that bringing this up would be tough
Yeah, it's very challenging and I think one of the mistakes people make potentially is
globalizing at invoke aside, so I'm gonna say it's me because anyone else
Imagine I'm the narcissist in this relationship and my wife consonances you are so narcissistic, stop being so familiar
self. What I'm going to do is get angry and defensive. I'm
you called me. Narcissus that's mean, and you sit on full myself for how many to be less fuller, myself, what I'm gonna be filled with that's useless, but do you said Keith you're, a great husband, Irene.
We appreciate how hard you work and how serious Europe, I think, would be great
make even more admired is to spend more time with your family. You know that something really great husbands do and,
I'd really appreciate Dan and other kids would appreciate that, and I think you and make you a stronger person, a better person. I bet it would even feedback and make it better work. I go.
Oh, maybe my worst ride. I could be even better, I'm a pretty girl, but I could be better and maybe it would make me better work as I could talk about my great family it when I do podcast or I could talk about it when I'm trying to get clients would be great and that's going to be a little better can be a little more effective because I won't get. Is defensive.
Low manipulated, but as a way of getting out the issues of narcissism without hitting the person directly can come into it at the side. It's extensive you're dealing with a narcissist, though one way potentially to reduce the narcissism, is to use a narcissistic appeal.
Toward altruism yeah. I mean it's manipulation. I apologise, but we have different terms words. Sometimes I've used the term communal activation. Turning
bring up more communal feelings in your pocket.
Trying to open up compassion, trying to open up warmth so
I look at narcissism. I see it as having these two sides wonders
Domini answer leadership or drive ambition, and those are
things in our society we kind of like you know we don't mind
people being leaders, we encourage people to be leaders, and this
their side is being selfish and self centred and entitled and expecting more from people and that's the side, a narcissism that we seem is more socially toxic. I can deal with people think they're great. If they're nice to me
But if somebody thinks you're not great as a jerk to me, I don't like em. So when you deal with narcissism, I think it's especially in relationship to treat
useful. They focus on that more interpersonal peace to try to bring about compassion, try to being about some more affection perspective, taking and all those who interpersonal skills from your partner. Speaking as somebody who's again been on that pretty far into the Spectre metals.
My life, maybe even literally right now. One appeal that work for me is that if you are paying attention, when you're just filled with self regard, be it grandiose vulnerable, it doesn't feel good thinking about yourself being self centered.
Hurts it feels much better to be other focused I've just seen over and over through my meditation practice and through my life in the world and through relationships with other human beings.
That has provided away. That also works through the pleasure centres of my brain, but that doesn't feel manipulative part of the challenges. The science is weak.
So long trying to figure out what narcissism is and how it works that these sort of treatment things are. You begin, get another decade, a figure all these things out, but this idea of self consciousness yourself aware
being unpleasant is really interesting, because there is research on this web design
awareness can be unpleasant, usinor thinking about yourself. It's boring
and if you love yourself and think your awesome, I think it can be rewarding the oldest definitions of
This is more self love in a physical way. I mean it was you know back to this real amid this is eighty nineties kind of stuff, so I think that self consciousness could be a turn off. Eventually, if you may be, I am Dubbs
I am just they give it threw down. This would be an interesting manipulation of people come in just reflect on yourself. Think about yourself. How do you feel and now think about? Somebody else now think about doing something for somebody else thing about helping somebody else. How do you feel most of the work people feel better in a purse
more than they do at home. I dont offered effect narcissist more than anyone else, but I bet it would make a difference. In fact, one of our greatest use- Chelsea sleep just did
amazing study. Looking at you asking people narcissistic what they thought and what I used to think and what people fund the literature that people in our system were really kind of unaware of these interpersonal consequences of their wife. But when we did these studies, it turns out that people in our society are aware of it this year
Jerk tat causes problems. I wish I was a little less this way, so we do seem to see more self awareness. Then I thought existed five years ago, because the old model,
years ago, because the old model narcissism, where people are just kind of oblivious but when it seems to be at least in the normal range as the people
like yeah, my minorities assessment. It helps me at times, but it causes problems. I wish I could have some better relationships beat. I suspect a lot of people who you know have pronounced narcissistic tendencies are those are the wrong side of the spectrum here or that may be thinking. How do I keep the good parts of narcissism, the ambition but jettison the more painful to myself and others aspects
yes in that challenge of being driven without being a jerk are being a leader without being entitled or sometimes
and the leadership world if you go into a kind of the business side of it. The talk about it is servant
leadership or level five leader
The idea that you can be a driven leader without being an egomaniac- and this is very possible- and people are like this- you look at the Dalai lama- I mean he's an increase of one of the greatest political leaders. We ve ever had
it's not me egomaniac, he worked.
Added. I beg you, spend hours and hours at the Hague did forced himself to train himself, not to be an egomaniac, but he isn't. We have people who do that and we respect people like that alone.
The biggest thing. How do you peel away the ego from the drive? How can be fearless without been mean? How can be fearless?
I envy I this there's a line from one of the Clancy by Liam Class. I got this in my head from an old Bob Dylan Interview where he says no fear, no envy no meanness, but I thought that was an interesting formula for creative success. How you can do things without Bein mean to people it's a challenge now either Buddhism has a lot to say on this on how to be ambitious and the dollar is a good idea,
by an he'd meditates every morning for three hours at least I believe here there are ways to train the mind so that you can be ambitious in that you have lofty goals, but your motivation is not self aggrandize meant, but as benefit of other beings and that you're not attached to the outcome.
So that your more resilient, both of these things actually boost resilience because of your motivation is less self regard and more, you know benefiting other people than you know. It's easier dust yourself off and not take things personally and then, if you're not attach the results,
you recognize have in view particular in the Dalai Lama's position. He can have the view of like
I can set a lofty goal and hope to achieve it over many lifetimes. Yes
very bodhisattvas, Thou writer voting has already said, forget ledge, yes cut out,
A really interesting
population in narcissism.
Because it is very selfless it's very giving and it it also takes where the element of time, because you have lifetime to do it. So you don't have to nail it this week,
You know I m to save the world, they don't have a deadline, so I can be a little less pressured at lunchtime out the Dalai Lama, but
other spiritual leaders who can credibly narcissistic and they start called send they take advantage of people. You knows
Two materialism is a term they use for this I've seen in some of the Buddhist Literature, Hindu literature. So it's a thus those practices I think
we really get for relieving that stuff, but the results it's also a vector for narcissism. Much more of my conversation with teeth Campbell right after this staying informed has never been more important. Information is coming at a faster than ever. So how do you make sense of it all started here? I'm bread milky from ABC News, and every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes: straightforward reporting, dynamic interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust, always credible, always solid start here from ABC News. Twenty minutes every week, smart speaker or your finger, podcast app.
You don't having dealt with no small amount of both depression and anxiety. Only speak towered manifest for me, but there's a lot of nurses ISM in my depression and anxiety. What are my fretfully projecting forward into the future about? If not myself, yeah and that's the
There's this- and this is like- does try asking you now under the worst man in the world and I made caused all ever suffering caused all the suffering. I mean you to be an egomaniac to think you that bad, if in my depressive thoughts for me to as a bad person as I imagine when I'm depressed I'd have to be pretty arrogant, because I really couldn't be that horrible, you know I'm just kind of a normal dude. I can't be damaged the loser, so there is the ego and depression and you get in inflation of self people who get depressed, get really self focus
you're in such suffering, it's hard for you to regional help. Somebody else you know cause you're dealing with your own anxiety. You own fear, you suffering
Reaching out can be really hard. So I just get to where I started thinking about the ass
tasks. Now I don't know why. Member the acid test in the sixties can Casey.
Tv. In those guys, I saw wavy gravy the clown, who is at the acid test. I some do a talk and he said when you were in the acid test and you thought you were the lowest. You could be the most scared and depressed and you could reach out and transcend yourself tell somebody else out. That's when you pass the acid test
The thing with narcissism is ego is a big topic
ego can do a lot of things, and sometimes ego can just be distracted like monkey mind, and sometimes it can be really self focused and fear based in Vienna, hiding in a room, and sometimes it can be this more narcissistic. Look at me. I'm Minos, awesome and so ego can take all these different forms. I meant ass this early on. Are we seeing societal shifts toward nurse
system and if so, what striving it? Jean twinning and I wrote a book. I think we
oh eight or nine right before the crash called the narcissism epidemic. Can we spent a lot of time looking at narcissism looking at young people, and it looked like narcissism in this? Is college student?
data, because this is where we have data on at look like narcissism is trend it up, at least until the great recession, where this, the average narcissism scorn the country went up enough
up, and then in the recession it looks like it. So destabilized restarted, going back down,
and now I think I mean obviously there's tons of narcissism the. U s just turn on the tv it's not hard to find, but it seems like we're getting heatwaves and depression now or just decent
coordination from the krona virus, but the data are me, I'm sorry,
working into data right as they come out, and it looks like this is kind of making people more depressed. I dont think the narcissism is going up with this. I'm not sure, though,
I've been under the arm chair analysed impression that nurses
must be going up because a social media, yes and it worked
me like it was until maybe twenty twelve or something like that and
I'm talking beyond the data right now down, but I'm just going to talk. So this
take me to an armchair stuff, because our data, you know in the last year too it's hard to eat. The science is always fuzzy. It always takes a few years for stuff to clean out. It looks like
happen on social media is when it started. It was a vector for narcissism in part.
What we know right now, or people who were narcissistic use social media more their mark accomplished at added they have more followers, friends or whatever
social media narcissism go together pretty well, but then there is the question
the social media, make people narcissistic an original
I thought it would. I thought it made sense, but when we started working at the data, didn't really seem to seem like people in cystic social media would help them maintain their narcissism. But what seem to be going on with other kids
young people all people whatever me too, is such a media became very stressful for them. So if it became on Instagram I'd, do it perfect selfie, I'm doing selfies all the time it's hard? If I don't love myself, if I'm alone secure myself, he doesn't look goods. I feel stress when I set myself is that
stress when I get my feedback, and so what you saw happened with all the kids at one instagram than a lot of the young kids got sort of fake instagram account, so people can see them and then they got Snapchat accounts so that it wasn't as permanent. So there is less pressure
On and now the sort of a tick tock word silly. I sometimes think about it. This way, our kids,
or expose the nineteen thirty's movie stars, so my daughter's at problem,
more celebrity exposure than a movie star would in the thirties or forties. Just have the picture taken more.
They're out there more
so they get alot of celebrity problems. Narcissism, my be lobby problem, but there's also depression.
Low self esteem body, image or body this morphia? So you have this big move for it like. If you go into a plastic surgeons office, there's a reason.
What chance you can say, here's a perfect selfie! I want to look like this.
I don't you dare to be a sign in their want to make yourself feel better. If you don't get this procedure, so people getting plastic surgery to take better selfies. So it's, I think, there's a cost to a lot of this.
People are suffering from now on when social media first came off, the costs was an apparent, and now people are see more of the cost. Is I guess I just don't have the data you
were modest earlier. When I asked you, you know, what can we do to deal with narcissism
in our own minds in the minds of people around us, but in your new book you do have a best section about an acronym called CPR, which you do bill is set of tools. We can use
These circumstances I'd love to hear more about that we're we're time by narcissism. Again I dont like just attacking people's ego, because you you don't know what you're gonna get CPR is aware.
Thinking about narcissism, especially poise, like what do I do with my kids? You know what I do with others. It's a way of thinking about it. It's not directly eager attack and
zero members, a sea compassion
Passion interpersonal relate
Ships, her lover faction and whenever you carrying concern at all those those interpersonal warmth dad is a buffer against narcissism, the more
love you have in your life, the less narcissistic you're gonna, be the more compassionate. You are, the less narcissistic you're gonna be
a building that compassion and is really important, waited to switch stop from becoming an unhinge narcissists, because you care about people
The second one is when people don't think about very much, but I think it's important, especially when you're in a performance fields, creative fields, sports. Any of these any of the fields, it's passion. So when people,
do things out of passion, that of love or of whether doing so I mean sir.
In or yoga meditation or doing, podcasting or being a professor when their passion about their subjects, they can be
energized and they can draw people and carries magically, but they're, not ego involved, because they just love what
doing it's not about them. So in psychology, literature we have this term called flow or flow states. The people get into sometimes in sports, they talk about it like being in the zone.
When you're so engaged, and what you're doing and your performing at such a high level that you literally lose consciousness of yourself. You throw lose awareness of yourself, you're so immersed in what you're doing, and so I think that if you focus your life on passion
Your ego isn't going to be a strong, it's gonna be buffered, because you just love what you're doing and the third thing
There are and CPR is responsibility taken. One of the biggest challenges with narcissism has taken responsibility for failure or taking responsibility for mistakes or bad outcomes. People who were narcissistic are very good at taking credit for success there, not so good at taken credit for failure, and so I think it's a real practice just to say yeah, I'm responsible for this screw up, even if you're not responsible, even if your employees responsible for the screw up, it's better to say damn responsible for that screw up. So if you practice
this over time, but you find is first of all, you get better because you'd take responsibility for mistakes. You don't make me much. Secondly, people don't hate you for taking responsibility for failure. They kind of respect you really. I not perfect, but he's nodded
earth least takes responsibility. I don't have to so that responsibility. Peace, I think, is a pretty good buffer for narcissism. Would you just
CPR, as primarily a set of tools that one can use to shave down one's own narcissism or is there an aspect to you can use with a difficult boss or spouse, etc. But I came up with
idea, because so many parents going, I dont, want make it had been our. I try to come up with
acronym really do you know how to deal with kids, but I use it for myself.
Just like run that through my head, sometimes with a boss, it's much harder because with yourself your kid Joseph
control when you're dealing with a boss
a lot of it is. How do you protect yourself? How do you make sure that my boss can't take advantage of me and then it becomes a balance of protection, but also some manipulation, so
you know, if I'm an arrogant boss, I figure well the guy,
seven years ago, when I was seven ego? How do I help her eager needs be met in a way that benefits my career and and costume my job right back to the manipulation there,
I'm sorry, I don't give me the collation in the pejorative it mean if you don't have as much power manipulation. Is the Jiu Jitsu move right, but if your you have power agency,
your own personality, and hopefully especially when their younger you, your own children, and so what I hear you talking about CPR pertains to children. I've got a five year old. I very much do not want him to be a narcissist, even though
He has my genes, so I would be encouraging, under your schema for him to have things in his life that develop skills like compassion, passion and responsibility.
Yeah absolutely in the other thing I think is really go with. Kids is natural consequences, meaning the classic examples you burn hand on the stove, you don't
had stoves anymore, but a lot of nature. Does that say: you're out in a broad climb, Aigner surfing Inner doing
thing out in nature and you get hurt and you
blame anyone by yourself, you know yard
acting on a river and you get knocked and a water. You can't blame anyone. You just have to accept responsibility for what happened, so I think those natural consequences over and over it just help to establish itself that
not interpersonal in a way allows you to know what you're good at what you're not good at. If you meet people who do high risk sports and big wave surfers fighters or what it did pretty, usually pretty chill people.
You ve gotta be down so many times their ego is and what it was when they were fifteen Libias about passion,
because I have a lot of things that I'm passionate about but used the phrase you can get so passionate about it, but you can get into a flow stay
where your ego is involved, but you know,
I'm really passionate about my writing, books and doing podcast and yet, like
do I check my Amazon rack pretty regularly?
do, I check what, how might despite gases ranking in the apple store all the time. That's pre prominent ego involvement. We
its it's ego involvement, but it depends on your frame in your task. So if your task, as you say, like I, just loved a right, I don't care whence it leaves my desk. I don't care, I just love to put words on paper and then he said Aunt em checking my stuff all the time I sit down.
Maybe there's something going on. But if you said, I'm really passion about being a successful rider were petty score points is a successful writer. You get sales rank, so you get. You know
answer whatever see your base you're. Looking at the points on the board, so looking at the points of the board is gonna. Give you feedback
good or bad, and if your numbers are bad, you know you
You get bad data from it and you go I better readjust or maybe just blame your publicist and got the handle. Five you're probably doesn't check my policy as bad as nice as personal world,
stay back, but you can see that right, you ve numbers or down you go off the handle, your fire. Everyone and you go K. Dan's awesome are key, saw some, but everyone around Keith as an idiot. Let's get a new team around Chiesa. Keith can be awesome again, but if you look at it,
numbers going. You know I got it work on this or you know it's really working over here, but it's not working over here. I'm going to change my direction a little bit. That's feedback for performance does not really eat, go it's more performance based well, it gets me thinking, and maybe this is totally off base. Is that is it possible there's a kind of healthy or useful narcissism in that? Yes, I do
look at the metrics and yes, I do feel there's at least some ego involvement there, but I am
using it as a way. I hoped to get better at my job so that I serve people better. I mean I'm trying to be honest years at my only motivation. I'll say what least one outcome that I do serve people better and
Maybe I'm button lipstick on a pig here, but is that may be used ego? What, yes, I think, is.
Peaceful eager? I mean what I mean.
I have ego guy get out of bed in the morning you now and if you're gonna be successful,
and you're going to say I'm going to put stuff out there that I want people to pay attention to. You got to start some of an ego. To start with, I mean to make it work. The problem, is you just don't want to take any over
So if you have any ego- and you can use your ego- but it's not taken you over its, not destroying your relationships- I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I mean it's a tool
think about it. You go to one or two a box, but you can pull it out here to a box and use it, but then,
put it away and armed your wife and kid or whenever you can go to the park and look at the birds and feel joy that have to be living in your head all the time so that tool in the toolbar,
metaphor is one I've used and it makes sense to me. Also, I mean
perfect- is not the Dalai Lama, my God, that guy meditates he was reincarnated. What's thirteen and need meditates four hours a day, I'm not get out of bed at a cup of coffee get yelled at by my kids and my dog bark at me. I'm just glad to be awake. You know
but we are pointing out to me at least seems really deep that again eighty eight, I think thinking about it. The spectrum is really useful and we're gonna be at various points on the spectrum, given our conditioning and given the current conditions in our lives, but
I hear you're doing this kind of decriminalizing the ego here we need to have ye go. We need, as you said, get up in the morning, but our pants on
make appointments and it's not wrong to want to be successful, but you might wanna have ways to be able to
turn the volume up or down on the ego or to put it back in the tool kit and pull out a different tool. Whatever pick your metaphor, I think motivation is a key part here. What is your motivation for your success, etc? Etc? It seems like we're getting into really you complex, but deep,
a useful terrain here I agree, I'm not anti
go by any means. I just think it can be overwhelming. I like competition. I think competition is a great way to learn about yourself. It's a great way to
can a loser ego because you get your but can't it's a great way to gain confidence:
what you do. It's very egotistical thing, but if its balanced, fair competition, it's great, that's where we have sportsmanship thou say he thought you know
sabotage competitor after the competition we learn. How to have you go and then put it away and we we learn how to deal with it reasonably well, being selfless all the time I mean. If you
woke up and started, giving away all your stuff? I'm your families can starve it's perfect anymore,
human we're, not gonna gods. I very much look at this as a balance in trying to make things better worse, rather than getting rid of ego. Somehow I mean you can do it for a moment and intense experiences, but done last long. I have a few more questions, as it is, is fascinating the
Book is called the new science of narcissism. That's the new book. What do you mean by new science? What's new here? Well, the research,
theory. I narcissism has been a mass for a long time. Then terms been around for about a hundred years.
It got real messy because it just historically you had you know yet psychoanalysts looking at people inside
while these people are really arrogant but deep downside to hate themselves. So you know, Donald Trump is on.
Neath, Woody Allen and Woody Allen Underneath must be Donald Trump and it gets are confusing, and we have these very strange models and different people kind, different things, narcissism, the debt
nations were really must stop, and in the last ten years or so, there's been a wide agreement, a sort of how we can structure narcissism, talk about his personality tray
isn't it disorder and really when a man is the personality psychologist this social psychologist, that industrial
organizational business psychologists and the psychiatrist in clinical people got together and sort of agreed on what we're talking about.
In the field was able to move forward very quickly in about ten years, so that really what I mean
while there is no right the book, as I just want to get the stuff out, there said if somebody wants to come along and five years and pick it up,
in just start where I am and not have to start from scratch. The epilogue a your book is well the title of the chapters epilogue, but the subtitle is facing the future with hope what is hopeful,
I was just trying to be helpful now I used to be so cynical, but this was workin for me now, I'm
hopefully, in a lot of things. I think you know if you ask me five years ago, so there's not really
payment for mpg people had changed too much and it seems like people can change. It seems like people flexible,
their personalities more than we thought before it seems like we can understand personality. So we can see that
some things are strengths and weaknesses Mckenna balances out. So I think there's hope that challenge
quickly. Is it there's? No real good research on narcissistic personality disorder? Is this not a priority of the government to fund research on this? So we don't really have
I am I wish I could say you know what we ve got: five therapies, they ve been tested in these these clinical trials, easy call this guy. We can fix your nurses and we just don't have that because there's no research,
when they, but there's no big money, push for their just, not a federal interested narcissism. So many jokes to me
There is really is, and I hate to say a bit I mean that's literally. The case is not a federal interest in narcissism has very interesting sense. I could get fired for playing with a tumor
but let me- and now I want, but I am now put it. Let me put it in terms that this is actually a little spook year, but this is what happens. Is. Are National Institute of Hell thinks about mental disorders as being things that are first found, and so
yes and then found a neuron and then things you can find in rat models or road at models and then things you find in the brain. So it's a very materialistic view of this. I see, and so things like Nora
racism they that dont really clearly fit into a rat model or a mouse
smart all they just don't know what to do with it, because it
problem of ego? And we don't really have good models with animals. We don't have good medicines for it in our whole system is designed to make every mental problem a pill, and so
not a lot of funding for things that don't fall along those lines. How do you clinically- and I know, You'Re- not a clinician, but how does one Linux
the linear between somebody who is you know pretty far too,
the extreme on the narcissism spectrum and somebody with full on an PD narcissistic personality disorder
the distinction is impairment, so we'd say. Is there clinically signals
in impairment in your life, from your narcissism to be a disordered, has to be met in you up, and so what they have to do is localize a couple area
as where this disorder is making your life harder. So it could be interpersonal problems. That's a big went for narcissism, so yeah you ve got this narcissism and its reckon you
marriage for your work. That's the problem could be a cognitive
ocean all you know you're making terrible decisions, because your confidence is way too high. So it's distorting decision making it could be
emotional disruption. So your narcissism makes you have these aggressive outbursts whenever you feel threatened and we need to work on that
equally, as you lost your job and you can't you know, you ran up on stage when some kind of war and install the award for a moment that stare boy you now
yeah, whatever it is, you kind of have to have this impairment to be a disorder if you're, just the most arrogant person on the earth, but you're nice person,
do not get into disorder amid Dalai Lama comes in, says, yeah, I'm I'm reincarnated Lama, and now
cut our raw god, king, but he's not can be diagnosed as it is and pity because he is not impairing. So it said, impairment, peace that makes it a clinical disorder and not just a trait youngest impairment, though there some
I still see in that phrase in that there is so much alarmed at the city and that that the truth is if you walked into a psychiatrist, and so my life's mess stop, because my wife's ism cave in our societies goes by.
Diagnoses, narcissistic, right, narcissistic right walked? You walked in this right, been a great chap. Having written numerous books on the subjects. Are there are areas where should have steered the conversation but fail
two or the things you want to get off your chest that I have given you a chance now.
This really interesting. The thing with ego is that it affects every single avenue of life. So you could say kid: what about narcissism in sports? What about narcissism in geeks when
narcissism and the military Junta by Norsemen religion. I mean you can go anywhere with it. It's the nature of the ego. It goes in everything so now this is fun. So final, final question: here we do on some episodes. We do this thing called the plug zone where we we force our often modest guests to shamelessly plugs hoagie.
Just plug your new book, your old books, where you are in the inter webs, etc, etc. Oh thank you
a new book coming out to September twenty Eightth called the new science of narcissism, valuable, familiar local bookstores internet report.
The site called narcissism lab at Essen Narcissism tests on their that should be work and a few curious and Debbie
Campbell dot com, a pleasure to me
you in the chat with you Keith. Thank you so much call likewise. Thank you, big thanks to Keith, for we go heads up on Thursday October. First from seven to nine eastern p, DOT M
Joseph Goldstein Sharon, Salzberg and seven slash eight, the last scene, I will be doing a live event to livestream event. It's a benefit to support two great meditation centers, the New York Insight Meditation Center, that's obviously in New York in the Cambridge Insight Meditation center in
which mass for more information and to register you can go to and why I m c dot, org and search under events to make it easy, for. You will also put a link in the show nuts and finally big thanks to the
Folks, who worked so hard to make the show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer. Moorish Lighterman is our producers are sound, designers are met bulletin and on your Sheikh of Ultra
audio Maria were tell us our production coordinator weed.
A lot of wisdom from our Tpa colleagues, such as gent point, then Reuben make Toby Endless Levin and, as always
big thanks to rank ass. Orange ashcombe from ABC News will see on Wednesday for an episode about joy. Is that even a relevant emotion these days, an episode about joy with the great meditation too?
your James Berets on Wednesday right now,
at this defining moment in America from ABC nurse turning point around making more money,
all right. Let me see
Transcript generated on 2020-09-21.