In my opinion, purveyors of joy can come off as oily and unctuous, even in the best of times. Like walking impersonations of Rainbow Brite. But in hard times, arguing for joy can seem pollyanna-ish or downright clueless. Our guest today reframes joy as supremely relevant and eminently doable. His name is James Baraz. He is the co-founder of Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California, and author of the book Awakening Joy. We talk about: why joy gets a bad rap; why it’s not a feel-good project, but instead a “feel-everything” project; and the role of meditation in taking on pressing issues such as climate and race. Also, stay tuned for a cameo from our producer, Marissa, who weighs in with a personal question.
Where to find James Baraz online:
Awakening Joy: 10 Steps to Happiness by James Baraz and Shoshana Alexander: https://bookshop.org/books/awakening-joy-10-steps-to-happiness/9781937006228
Awakening Joy for Kids by James Baraz and Michele Lilyanna: https://bookshop.org/books/awakening-joy-for-kids-a-hands-on-guide-for-grown-ups-to-nourish-themselves-and-raise-mindful-happy-children-9781941529287/9781941529287
James Baraz leads the Awakening Joy course each year which people take from all over the world. You can go to awakeningjoy.info for more information.
Other Resources Mentioned:
A sorority of mothers in Mexico search mass graves in hopes of finding missing children's bodies: https://abcnews.go.com/International/sorority-mothers-mexico-search-mass-graves-hopes-finding/story?id=67639741
EAARTH by Bill McKibben: http://billmckibben.com/eaarth/eaarthbook.html
Dianne Bondy: https://diannebondyyoga.com/
Why mindfulness matters during a pandemic: https://mashable.com/video/mindfulness-tips-coronavirus/
Ten Percent Happier Live: https://tenpercent.com/live
Coronavirus Sanity Guide: https://www.tenpercent.com/coronavirussanityguide
Free App access for Frontline Workers: https://tenpercent.com/care
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/james-baraz-285
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sometimes people might think all their joy boy, but it's
deeper than that.
For maybe see this is the ten percent happier podcast
then Harris hey guys. You may have heard
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go fort hello. In my humble opinion, purveyors
of joy can often come off as oily and unctuous, even in the best of times like walking impact
the nations of rainbow bright, but in hard times, such as the one
through which we are living right now. Arguing for joy can
Pollyanna assured downright clueless. Our guest today, however, refrains joy
as supremely relevant, an eminently doable. His name is James Barras he's the co founder of Spirit Rock Meditation Centre in California, author of a whole book about joy,
old awakening joy and this conversation we talk about why joy gets a bad rap, why it's not a feel good project, but instead a feel everything project
and the role of meditation in taking on pressing global issues such as climate and race also stay tuned for a great cameo
from our producer on this episode, where Schneider men who ways in quite bravely
my opinion with a personal question here we go. James Barras arise James
Joy boy, welcome to the show. I know that
moniker is at least some
facetious, but super interesting when you talk about joy
what do you mean because what I think of joy- I think I said this before in the Show- unless civil
special level. I picture those Toyota commercials from the eighties, where somebody's just bought a Toyota and their leaping into the air.
What do you mean when you
Invoke the word joy well
and put us on the word joy or different flavors of it are quite prominent. It's one of those
in fact, as of enlightenment, it's a very
nation, in the four divine abodes theirs
super happiness and there,
promote your gladness in lots of different expressions.
For me, I'm talking about all the states of well being
and there's a continuum of that from deep peace and contentment to rapture and less, and everything in between there is a place,
inside of us that longs for happiness and that when we discovered it's right inside so truly, I'm too
about well being is just not as catchy to say, awakening well being is awakening, joy
is the whole range.
How does one access joy? What can I do to get more joy,
Probably the most direct route is getting out of your head and into your harsh, I would say,
because it's usually in the head. That's trying to fix
things out war solve problems as you.
As far as that is as important
When the mine starts spinning.
It gets contracted and
when there is a kind of spaciousness and ease and relaxation that now
state of being
can be accessed then,
swirled with that state of. Well, being you see here,
you see a baby whose diapered
Third and FED, and given a little bit of love, they squeal with delight wow.
There's wonder there is openness and
We were all that baby
it gets covered over with so
it's really quite
down and giving enough space to get in touch with that natural goodness and liveliness that spread inside one of my main formulas. I've got a few
but one of my main ones is first,
anticipating being right, where you are
having a connection to that genuine presence to where you are at out of that us into
the connection doesnt lifeless that comes in at the beginning of opening to joy. I would say I mean a push you I'm gonna go
The character as I do love my role as this fidgety sceptic bring it on. I cannot be cynical, do like being sceptical
the Buddha said, scepticism was very good good. Thank you Buddha. I was there for them.
My son and he came out purple and slimy and screaming like an undersea creature,
that had been brought up from the bottom of the Marianna Trenchant did not want to be here and so on,
I ve no use now.
But I remember what it was like when he was a baby and yes, there were times news, cooling with delight and then other times he was puking in my face. That's a little glib, but I guess what I'm trying to get out of.
You know this authenticity that you reference
getting out of your head in into your body and then the dp sets available therein etc. I dont know
like I said, and meditate quite a bed and find myself continually stuck
in my head were confronted with all sorts of,
of my own ugliness, etc, etc. So I don't know that I feel like
Joy is as easy, as you know, like hailing an arbor. No, it's insane practice, editing
some understanding of how the mind works, and the first step in the process
is making friends with. What's here, if you trying to bypass
and so on.
Gimme, the joy I get me out of this
confusion, and I want some joy
you're, very attitude of grasping of wanting us,
version two what's here is gonna work against you, so
in whatever way, possible,
to get a sense of
spaciousness and acceptance and compassion around what you're going
through compassion is a key doorway to awakening the heart. So you can
bypassed us where you have to start to come to terms first with what your actions
Frances and actually.
The pain and the confusion and the duke as we call it in Buddhism, become
a doorway to joy, it's one of those
lists of all is that the Buddha has he has
One listed, sir, you can pursue friends with a cold trends in debt
all dependent arising where he
Says that suffering he starts with suffering
which is what he started when the first novel truth is suffering in the world, and he says
can lead to face
not necessarily, but it can and often does faith
Can lead to gladness gladness can lead to joy, can lead to content
and concentration all the way up to awakening, but it starts
with suffering being caused a factor for facing some those people say well. How is that possible? And I often ask people who have a quizzical look on their face? How many people here have come to their spiritual practice will come to looking for deep
answers to life through suffering and most every hand goes up. So it's not a bypass
the confusion and all things get in the way, but to have tools to work with them. So that
can have some space and understanding and that most
these things up and creates enough openness that we can access would steeper inside. I could see people getting hung up on the word faith
but by faith I imagine you mean a trust and confidence that this endeavour is worth embarking upon it.
If the word saga is translated as either faith or trust or conviction or com,
prudence, there's something
bigger than my own small,
story of the world
this moment and there's a kind of inspiration that we can get from opening up to a wider perspective. So how would work- and I'm saying this allowed a hoping that you
Correct me would be you can find in meditation that your suffering, you know either it's a leg, cramps
murderous it's just above your left, nostril or falling into.
Same habitual thought patterns that have been with
Since you know that argument, you had with your mom, eight seven or whatever it is all of that comes up, and yes, it can suck
it also knowing and getting the increasing sort of
bone level action,
and then drive level confidence that
offering will arise and inevitably pass impermanence in this aspect can be your friend.
That can be. The doorway to the other was sort of more fun
links in the chain of faith, slash confidence, joy, etc. Definitely, that's one access,
You know, as you probably have heard many times in the practice, is not what's happening. It's our relationship to what's happening, that's really the key, so it's dead
doping, a wise relationship to your experience, whether it's a pain in the knee or memory from thirty years ago. Oh can I haven't
eyes relationship. So I'm not.
Completely lost in my reactions and then I can respond appropriately and wisely. So why
you did you fastened on the joy aspect, because if I'm here you correctly everything that we have just discussed, is you you? You start as your teaching emphasis with joy, but then a very quickly becomes a meat and potatoes Buddhism and police. Correct that, if that,
incorrect and if its, not then, the question I guess I have is like what
Your life in your mind, encourage you to fasten onto the aspect of joy and all of us who
I have in me my natural, but before I came to Buddhism
words, there's a part of me that always did like to celebrate life.
And before I got in touch with boot.
I was deeply impacted by name
curly, Barbara Rum doses grew model
I'll show read, be here now
in nineteen seventy one and it changed my life
really appealed to me.
Wherever. Then I discovered the dogma
nineteen. Seventy four when Joseph costing first came back from Asia and that for some retina Roper he and Jack were there and Sharon too
like I came home, I was thrilled
Then I found a past too
there, and I had worked.
Is called all long honeymoon period where I just one
tell the world you just have to be mindful. You just have to be mindful and then at some point I lost my joy. I became very serious about my practice
dead, serious emphasis on the dead.
And I did lose my joy, there are some teachings that I missed
construed which could easily be misunderstood and went through some internal conflict with what did
really teach and I went through a period. It was a difficult period for
a few years.
Until I realized wait. A second I'm, not
The alignment with who, I really am, I said,
the Buddha as this kind of stern taskmaster. That said, it's not ok to love life and have fun and then
Fortunately, instead of turning my back on the teaching
I said well, what did the Buddha really say because he was called the happy one and,
the Dalai Lama in his book, the arm of happiness, the first line in this book is the purpose of life is to be happy. So I started
Take a look, and I say: okay, what did the Buddhist say about happiness? Not just fine
But in one's life- and I said
some beautiful teachings that made
sense to me that I haven't quite her package that way
That I then started practicing.
And bringing myself back in conference, both with by true nature and with the teachings. What are the teachings eastern practicing that helped nardoo towards the aforementioned Congo?
glad there were three really
she's, not the basis of
The book that I wrote an the course that I've been teaching for quite some time. The first is the Buddhist.
Teachings on wholesome states, the teaching on wise effort. There are four aspects of wise effort to having to do with. Unwholesome states are Kusadama and to having to do with wholesome states, so the
Unwholesome states are too slow: greed hatred, delusion, jealousy and
You know those guys any says God
against those if you can guard against them from arising.
When they do arise, which is part of being human,
learn how to overcome them, and then it
cultivate consular wholesome states, love
kindness generosity compassion
joy. All of those here.
Is called mindfulness, which is the key. The whole thing cultivate those wholesome states and the four
which doesn't get a whole lot of air play.
He says when there's a wholesome state that arisen reason.
Maintain and increase that wholesome state is a good thing so
that was the first one, and now you might say well wait a second. If you ve got a wholesome stay and you're trying to maintain and increase it. Isn't that just grasping, but the tricky part is.
As soon as you are trying to hold on to a wholesome state,
just turned into an unwholesome state, because any kind of grasping is a russula. So
The trick is rather than trying to hold onto it.
How you maintain and increase a wholesome state is to simply be very present, for it.
The mindfulness form
Else not only is also state cultivates, others button when you apply it to a wholesome state. That's here without grasping you
give it life, and you actually amplifier enhance it
first, one is understanding where happiness really lies, that's wholesome states and to be really present for the second teaching
which is a relatively obscure teaching that I came across in.
In one of the suit is in the middle length, discourses.
He says: there's a gladness, a feeling of uplift, that's connected with them.
Some state- and it gives the example in this discourse- he says-
if you're in the middle of a generous act,
thank you yourself, I'm being generous South
He says this is a good thing not away
everybody sees how generous a guy I am, but rather all just noticed how good it feels for generosity to move through this being only
feel so good and the lion and suitor. He says that gladness connected with the wholesome. I call any equipment of mind
to disarm all hostility and that gladness one gains
inspiration in the meaning, inspiration in the truth, so he says: pay attention to that gladness, it's a really good thing and then the third teaching
is fairly well known, teaching again in the middle length, discourses wear
Everyone frequently thinks and ponderous upon that will be
the inclination of their mind.
So in modern, nor in science. The saying goes, neurons that fire together wire together
So it's all a matter of habit
and when I saw all of those three, it occurred to me to look at the different, wholesome states that are spoken of in the teachings. I picked.
In particular ones that seem to follow a logical sequence for me as far as developing, and if you do it over time and you call them
a wholesome stay and you're really paying attention to it.
And you do that over a corset
several months as your practice
start to notice your mind shifts
from seeing what's wrong too
not to notice all the good and it creates
face for you to open up to all the difficulties. So that's what I do
The evolution left us with this, sometimes useful, but often knots
helpful negativity, bias, hyper vigilance
scanning the horizon for threats.
Sounds like you're nudging us toward a rewiring refrain, meaning vigilance for the positive exactly that's it
If I were cancelled, armies it dear friend, and as he put sister, the brain is like Teflon through positive experiences in velcro for negative ones,
so it takes some training to
be on the lookout for the good and not only noticed, said, but to be present for mindfully, not just as
Oh, this is a good moment, I'm happy now, but actually to be mindful
in your body so instead of knowing
and feel good right now,
to notice. This is what it
feels like to feel good and just with a few moments of terms,
your attention to that, so that there is a visceral experience is
tremendously powerful. That's what we do over over course time. I'll, give you an example, just my own life and tell me if you think this is
appropriate operational leasing of what you're talking about. I will preface this by saying that my family extreme
privileged if you want to less pc term just lucky during
endemic. We were when it hit for the first three months, we're living in New York City with our five year old. It happened there.
Least was ending and we had the means to be able to get out of
city with my cousin, who else
lived in the city and as a single mother of a child is my son's age. Her daughter, six, my son, five
and we were able to get up to the suburbs, but is incredibly fortunate thing and I have
I met a woman named Lucy DS last year whose
leader in Mexico of this movement of moms, who were searching for the by conservative estimates, forty thousand missing people in the country of Mexico,
It's probably closer, two, a hundred twenty thousand anyone Lucy's son is one of the disappeared and she's been leading.
Hundreds of other mobs to go out and look for mass graves and she's issue incredible person and
one day were talking. I spent quite a bit of time whether one day she said something like you know, it never turned down and opportunity to spend time with your family
and stood a little rule that I've generated is that unless there are
Extenuating circumstances. If my son knocks on the door of my office and says he wants to play, I will do it at least for a little while and this alone
sorry. Sorry, we first mood of the country. There was a snapping turtle, we saw a front yard, we were so excited issues bearing her eggs. Ninety days
little turtles showed up
they were in the back yard, but they were going in the wrong direction and we found
to them and we march them over to a nearby pond, and then we found a dead one along the way and my son, he was asking me.
They had named the turtles that he said. I hope Alexander and chain are doing well in the pond and he said
that I hope Alexander Anders Shane are doing well in the pond, and he said it also Dan as it
and he said he had ass the dead one he's got a sharp sense of humour inherited from I'm sure it's mom. Anyway, all
which to say even in those moments, when my mind may be calling the elsewhere, I've been trying to pay attention not to the thought of ok, this fund fun Harrison to name but
suggest just it feels good in the body and the whole system to be taking a few moments to say,
time with this kid who, by the way, not be five forever long story Ipod
guys, but does that sound like an application of what you're talking about exactly? How do you feel when you felt it? Oh, this is what it feels like
What a great feeling feels good, even when I feel proud of my son from burning me, I love that, and probably even just in recounting the story, if brings it to light up to
which is another very interesting principle that
We can go I'll, never feel joy
and all you have to do is remember a moment like that.
And there it is it's much more accessible than
We realized, but that's it,
being and in fact that's one of the reasons why.
Being around kids can be
if we can set aside our agendas can be
such an excellent doorway, because there
they have a sense of wonder and they're playing with the world. We forget how to play often, and we become
doing important matters of consequence, and so a lot of
It is bringing a sense of wonder to the world. Like Jesus said he said. Unless you become like children, you will not know the kingdom of Heaven is an Einstein
quoth he says there is to it
of going through the world. One is seeing nothing as a miracle and the other
Everything is a miracle, so it's like bringing back
Natural Alliance Sinclair
reality and really being present for at once. There is beautiful story one.
More very short story. This one. I promise just accentuate your point about playfulness. I love it.
Yesterday we went back out in the rain to look for more turtles. We didn't find any, but
heard my son singing. It's raining its pouring
The old man is boring, referring to me so
yes arena, he senses it too. You know when you get older, you know you can have those very
certain things to do, in fact, he sometimes marches around the house saying I'm important, damn imitating his dead, so yes, the playfulness
really important, and I wonder just to make this really practical for listeners. Are. There are specific ways,
meditation or even just an orientation in our basic meditation.
We can use to accentuate these consular qualities that you're describing how definitely there's lots
the ten wholesome states that I chose
teachings they're all ways to cultivate wellbeing. Mindfulness brings
them about. Naturally, there's these wholesome food.
Hers and unwholesome factors, and then there are some that are neither wholesome or unwholesome. This fifty two mental factors in through the psychology of one model.
The one you need property of mine for this is that it is the
only one that both when there's Michael
what's your weakening unwholesome states,
suppose you have sadness.
Worry or anger when you're my full in a wise way, you or weakening the unwholesome.
State you giving its space you're not getting caught up in it and there is a kind of opening wishes by the way one of the key components of
wholesome, say, says: spaciousness is a relaxation and all the unwholesome Windsor contracting so,
from this weakens the unwholesome states and it strengthens the wholesome states, automatic
without you, even realizing it. But when applied, you can call up. A wholesome said,
same loving kindness. You do some
we time this practice, you just inclining the mind towards
swell being towards wishing well and then
you're really present for it. That's cultivating a wholesome state
You can tune in to compassion which
is a wholesome state, even though it requires suffering
when you feel that quivering
of the heart that residence in the heart and you feel that sense of caring and your present for it. That is a whole
instead of well being one of the most direct ways is gratitude. The Buddha
in one discourse in a blessing suitcases to be content and grateful. This is a blessing supreme, some a direct way towards
Well, being is to think of something that your grateful for and be very present for it if you like, I can take you through thirty seconds of well being if we opt for. Yes, I do like ok, I
close your eyes, go inside, bring to mind so
blessing in your life.
Some one that you grateful for or some circumstanced grateful for just be quiet, call up the blessing.
And now have an image so that you're even more in touch with it, that personal situation now give a simple silent. Thank you right from your heart to that person, nor to life a thank you.
And now just relax and enjoy that feeling of gratitude, feel it a new body of thank you just marinated it. Thank you so much. Ok, you can open your eyes
So two things to say this just came to mind him my end and won't surprise. Anybody to hear me say that the thing I am most grateful for is my son, and this morning he came in to my office. After use, soaking wet came into Gimme, ugh and yeah. I can feel I can feel gratitude to him gratitude. The universe to the universe, to the IVF doctor
life, and then I also feel fear. You know that something would happen to him, etc, etc. Would you make that your human, it's great,
can see it carefully. So you can pass out the gratitude.
Then the joy
see the subtle
conditioning of fear and attachment that can block that it happens all the time since
people are afraid to love or
To really let go and let themselves feel fully
joy, because they they're afraid of the other issues can drop, and so they can
Well being out of fear or as
You probably know when we feeling matter when we feel in loving kindness, but
your enemy of loving kindness.
What disguises loving kindness, his attachment, and so
They can get mixed very into try very easily and sell. The important thing is,
to see how that works in the mind. So you're not subject
to that very deeply practice. Conditioning and work with the fear, don't preach
and it's not? There really see it and name it. So it doesn't have
power that it often does over. You say you can just,
hold it wisely and then go for that
Well, being that's expansive much more, my conversation with James Barriers, read after this staying in full has never been more important. Information is coming in us faster than ever. So how do you make sensible start here? I'm bread milky from ABC News. In every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes, straightforward
porting, dynamic interviews and analysis from experts. You can trust, always credible, always solid start here from ABC News. Twenty minutes, every weekday on smart speaker or your favorite podcast app
so, I think you ve brought us very nicely to L a
If I want to do in this conversation, because
other issue. People will inevitably have in this won't surprise you at All- and I am happy to make this pivot cause. You have a very good answer and a very good track record.
Big issue that people have with the emphasis on joy is in a world that is deeply lots, swear sauce. I messed up
Jos him. Another word in a world.
Such as the one we have an occupied today. There is a lot to be.
Really angry about to be scared of. So what
all this joy play in a messed up world yeah? That's the big class
and as May, you know, I'm besides being involved with joy in teaching about
joy. I'm also vary
involved in things that have to do with
making this a better world and dealing
with all the suffering
Climate is a big issue for me in, and certainly these days between, the virus in race
and injustice and
tree. That seems like its past
we going off the cliff or else maybe we'll go in the right direction, doing everything I can to make sure the latter comes true. That is one important.
To do what we can to make it a better world, but not be so overcome with our feet.
In our region or anger, so
We can be more effective because
As I said in the teachings of bonuses, hatred never ceases by hatred, hatred,
ceases by love alone. This is an ancient and eternal law.
When you're around somebody who's Phil
anxiety and worry and outrage, which can be any
said. Any time I mean
definitely get into those play
That's not where I live.
In my share of news to be informed, and there are those things can be,
activated, but when you're around somebody in
who is expressing that? How does it feel you might,
compassion for them or commiserate with them were say yeah. This really is a terrible world, but it's not gonna. Do.
Be leading to the wisest response.
When you're around somebody who care deeply about the world, but has
islands and equanimity and also sees the good
in the world it affects. You
Just like fear is contagious, so
is balanced and centred ass, one
my friend says: we're in a race between fear unconsciousness
and you don't wanna get caught up in the fear.
So the more you can
be realistic and see what's out there and address it wisely, but come from a place of love, come from a place of gratitude. Come from
place of seeing all the goodness in the world, then you're.
She will be much more effective
You also magnetize inspiration, so it seemed like
it's one of the most important things to do to stay in touch with. What's good,
along with seeing what's difficult one thing about it?
First to me a number of years ago, when I first started to the climate issue, I read a bill MC book
and I ve been aware of climate, and it was
troubling, but I just kind of put it on the back burner
and I read that book earth with two is to see the different kind of earth that we were about to enter and it shook me it shook me deeply fur really about a year to really take in the enormity of what we might be
facing, and I was with a friend of mine who was a dime, a practitioner and also the head of a climate programme for World Wildlife fund,
and I said: hey Lou, I've gotta do something, but I've just been teaching Buddhists meditation and
Why, for the last few years, you know, I don't know what I have to bring to this and he looked at
me, and he said James Joy might be the most impact
and saying we need to remember now and then just getting colors
shivers remembering at me-
such sense, because you don't wanna, be putting out to spare and fear.
Worry as important as those things are. Two metabolize Wanna come from love
underneath all of that worry and outrage is care and if you can get in touch with the care with the love with the gratitude for the life and this plan
we ve been given that much more inspiring and back the title.
So I really want to hear what you have to say about something. I was on
handle the other day Mashable, which is a big website. It was
doing a big panel on mindfulness and was me
another mindfulness teacher and Diane
to use an african american female yoga teacher.
I was doing a little bed, a sort of a much less articulate, less
a full version of your rap about the importance of joy and and and trying
have a careful relationship to anger in this moment, given everything that's going on in our world from climate race to politics, the pandemic
and I am that the over teacher she said something that really stop me. My tracks, which was she did she didn't you.
These words exactly she was quite careful about how she said it, but this is how I heard it. She basically said it
straining for her when wealthy white men talk about the disutility of anger, because anger
she was saying, really helped her see things clearly and get moving and by the way what
happening out in the world is genuinely infuriating, and I had to agree
were there. But I also agree with what you're saying so a sailor.
Words their weight. Where do you land on all this, both true they're, both true that
anger is not only a human but important
in that it offends to see injustice and
rule and yeah just
unfairness, son, so many levels and ignorance, but it's not.
Sustaining kind of emotion. It gets one going. The outrage is important to get us out of our complacency, but if we're stuck in anger,
If that's the only thing, that's fuelling our actions, it is not us
sustainable nor magnetizing quality that were putting out. So I think it's
absolutely essential to get in touch with our anger, get in touch with all of those feelings of our but, as I said
go underneath them to the place that it hurts
why this anger is a kind of protection for
the hurt inside because we care, because
We love, because we want this to be.
Kind of world permits, children talks,
getting on the need to the soft spot that place
nor ability said it would
coming really from love all
The anger is what has gotten us going at
woken us up and his absolutely essential to honour the anger and honour the outrage
it's not as effective action coming from that place to go on anything from carrying that. It's really trying to protect us from love can be, at least for me, as a sceptic can be a bit
stop her as a word, because it can sound grandiose, but you in
earlier on. In this conversation that you'd, I believe you invoked me
your remember shade,
Was on the show, a few weeks ago, great meditation teacher in the twin tradition:
he was talking about love as like. Just the way you are that he doesn't need to be grandiose. You can look at every shift in your chair every effort to be more comfortable as a form of love, if you just think of love as just giving a crap or caring, and so yes tuning into
that being the under girding force? Anger being
secondary to that
yeah. The anger is the response to the arab world and there is a contraction, but underneath his something much cheaper and
when I say love, there's lots of different
words, and this is one of the things about a weakening joy, that I am quite aware of words-
really important. So you want to be able to communicate the words that people can resonate with. That's why I have allowed
different definitions for joy right off the bat when people doing that, but love can be carrying is kindness,
like the Dalai Lama's by religion is kindness. Most people can relate to that or basic goodwill
just wishing well, so it doesn't have
be flowery. In fact, it can be a little bit tricky,
you're trying to do
the field of daisies and saying: oh yes, it is,
wonderful, but that basic, deep caring
she's there and compassion is well, which is in the face of suffering all of those qualities of.
Wishing well and having want sensitivity in the connection with life. Those are all work, those are all race.
It's as you try to- and I want to emphasise the done. A lot of work on climate and race is well
As you try to walk this line of
sizing. Joy and leaning into sort of engagement with the Ngos
of the world. Do you have
see in your own mind, earn other people's minds and emphasis on joy, leading one to a kind of Pollyanna S could denial? Definitely theirs.
Passing in so many different ways in the spiritual journey
and when I start my course, I say this is not a feel good programme. This is a field everything's programme, and so
well being does is give you a larger context to process all the different feelings that are there. There's nothing left out
and sometimes they say in Buddhism,
and so you have to honour that's. Why said before often tickly being where your at and feeling the connection with it, then you
and have some space around all the painful feelings in the hurt feelings, in fact
one of those ten steps. There are ten steps in my book in my course. The force
after gratitude. After you,
you know I've gone through intention,
and mindful us and ingratitude is the third, and that gives you the space.
To then go into the first step, which is opening up to the difficult
An essential piece of opening to joy, say you're, not
living in denial. You not covering up what's here that
why the buddhist storm, the first tell the truth there
firm in life.
Until you're, ready to really open up to that you're gonna be
in denial and avoiding so they go right together. I hope you are mad
this, but I want to bring in Marisa whose producing this episode, who you were talking about the difficult
Then she was on a retreat with you where she had a real insight around dealing with.
Difficult, emotion, around shame, Morrison
Would you be willing to come on just tap a question? Fur.
Mr Barras above us how exciting I'll catch you, my so yeah I did the three month meditation retreat and James is my teacher further for
Six weeks and the retreat ended- and I did not go very challenging and area
right. That's why we're doing there
Maybe I understand the power of the triple jam and why samba matters and sound it isn't just being in a room silently with people. It's like having spiritual community to support you and the retreat ended, and essentially things got very complicated with who I thought maybe was my spiritual community, and I basically have been in shame about that ever since a holding a lot of shame about that for two years now,
You know talking with James and Pre, reviewing him and seeing if this would be a good shovel and decided
It was your a retreat. We haven't spoken since then, and it sort of like the floodgates opened
because one I realize had been holding this with me.
For so long and just felt so much shame
around it, because I think that can get really tricky whispered. Full community is like almost we try to bypass when there's a problem, because you don't busy bore spiritual and they practice and
James told me he said. Shame is a misunderstanding of honor. Top emptiness barely struck with me, so I guess the question would be to explain what that means and how that can be of value to people who experience, shame and suffering, which I think are people do
First saw all I'm so glad that just through this
Arranging of this interview, we got a chance to reconnect and process what you went through,
and I'm so sorry that you did go through that, and I glad that we can work with it because
It's all workable as soon as you start having a wiser relationship to what happened, and this is not
do. This is for all of us there,
the healing and, as we were talking.
Tat. I really enjoyed reconnecting and talking
What I said was when we have shame we're stuck in thinking. Oh, I.
Was a bad person. I am a bad person. I did something that it's hard to figure
myself, for I dont want people to see who I really am the mind might say, but that
God, who you really are in
when I said that
some misunderstanding of matter, and not, as is the concept of
we are the selfless nature of reality that taking why
everywhere ceiling is who we are and taking ownership of a particular
ceiling. That comes up
There is a misunderstanding. We have all of these feelings that come and go. I know what shame is like. I know what fears like. I know what self judgment is
white and in fact, processing that and seen. Oh, this is part of being german
enabled me to be.
There are others who go through that. It's just part of the human experience and so
to look back and see. Oh, I just didn't understand. I just
seeing clearly really
in Britain, the way I see it is not so much evil.
Just not understanding not seem clear
Well, that's the definition of a personal to see things clearly, its ignorance,
real villain ignored
so to forgive the confusion rather than to blame myself for what happened. What I did and even to forget,
rather than to blame myself for what happened, do what I did and even to forgive the confusion if we can get to it when we're ready in others,
people who have their own confusions. Dormer teachers are included in there.
So that's where the healing really occurs.
When I hear and then in mercy may have follow ups, but what I hear in that- and I I confess to only having episodic passing understandings of selflessness
Another is a sort of impersonal nature of the various emotion
mental qualities that wash through us
Shame personalize is any ignorance or greed or whatever makes it all about you, even though derision really a you there and
dead to see oh yeah. Well, I was caught in something else, maybe not so wholesome, like an ignorance or agreed, but it's not so much that I am thoroughgoing we rotten because there's
thorough going about you at all.
I wonder if one could hear them.
And say well as that away to disavow responsibility? Will first very well put like the way you just explained the latter
it's all just arising in passing arising in passing how many
moods have you had today, Europe?
the EAST coast say you ve got three more hours on me, but you probably have gone a lot of different places. Your moods in your thoughts, how many different parts of your head and which,
one can you point to say: oh that's why I really am you know
you see, you saw me, you get happy, you
an email and you might get grumpy.
Whenever so, it's all just coming and going and coming going, but as far as responsibility,
if you don't know any better than you dont know any better, but once you do now
Once you do see, I have a choice here.
This is one of the vote.
Blessings and curses of awareness that you can't pretend you dont know anymore,
and once you see where it
this leading to a few.
See that you have a choice, this opens up.
World, and so, as far as responsibility, you know
Of course it is based on intention and on
just standing. What your intention is behind your actions,
most people are not in touch with their intention. So precisely, and so they just keep on creating
more trouble for themselves by acting out of greed, hatred, confusion,
But once you see that you can choose, then that changes everything if you dont want to create suffering you'll choose a different ways.
One of my favorite teachings of the Buddha he says to the calamities ceases adopt
leave anybody, don't believe the teachers, don't believe the authorities, don't believe the Buddha. Don't believe you
But when you know for yourself this leads to suffering. Then, if you don't want to suffer,
don't do it and when you know for yourself that this leads to happiness and a few
well being and happiness then go followed. The choice
so the response.
It comes from seeing more clearly that Europe actions have consequences
but until you know until you know you don't know so
I looked back on my life, for instance,
about this in my book, all the mistakes that
made when I was in my twenties.
Secondly, in my twenties I looked back.
And I went on one loving kindness retreat. My first loving kindness retreat Maggie.
Happy may be peaceful and I thought of all the awful thing
they didn't. My life is very comment that this happens is a kind of purification and whose, like oh, my god, I can't believe I did that. Oh
I believe did that it got so bad. I said: ok, I'm gonna name the twenty really awful things I did in my life and just get
Fortunately, I only came up with seventeen, which was the tremendous relief, but
what I learned as I cringe each time. I can't believe you did that
It occurred to me
cringing is really a good thing. It means I'm not that person that I was anymore
I wouldn't do those things so, but I didn't know any better,
then I was so confused and there was a wave of self forgiveness
genuine self forgiveness. Us, oh gosh, you confused. You are trying to do what you thought was well, you didn't think,
It all- and there was that healing and see- I didn't know any better if I could have done it better, I would have- and now I know how Louisa I see another way, yeah
I appreciate grounding yet and that because it feels more practical to stand basically to James. You know. First, I was like I'm never meditating
Gonna be best, I was my initial after their retreat. That's like this just brings more suffering but then started trying to bypass and say well we're just a heap of foam and saucer anyway. My pain and her is invaluable legislative except some. Such a move
but you know in this world is lay people and we have to meet that with the heart
I guess, even if I don't want to die,
for the healing really comes in until
you, do you're just
nothing! You were not one
When you see- oh- yes, oh
I see what happened. I see my confusion and their confusion. Perhaps you don't have to go there before you're ready to, but I.
Stand and even feeling that pain and
like I say, metabolizing it, then there can be a real
lying and transforming it into genuine compassion.
This has been a great interview, I'm just giving to space in case we miss something or do we feel it. We ve covered everything.
I guess wanting that occurs to me is
seeing that we all want to be happy inside. Even those who say why, like being grumpy, that's the stairway of being happy
so everything we do, there's something
inside of us is really rooting for our happiness and well being and then to get in touch with that very pure place. With you
Let the Buddha insider, your true
It were the kingdom of Heaven within to get in touch with that. There's this goodness in us that wants to come out,
that we, the more we can appreciate and celebrate and listen, listen rather than
figure out, listen to the wisdom inside that says, oh, what went wrong.
Really be of benefit to me and to the world not just to me
to me and the world, then its listening to the Buddha or Claudia,
Jesus by the merry within listening to it
and loving the goodness motivate you in whatever you do. Then we will all benefit.
And your own well being becomes a gift to everybody else, because it helps awaken that and others as well as Beerus. Thank you very much also thank to Amerika
dragging her into the various episodes, but I don't feel guilty, but it all just grateful too
big thanks to James and just a plug here. I mentioned this the other day, but come up on the first of October from
seven p m to nine p M eastern standard time. Joseph gold Saint share in Salzburg
Seventy slashing I will be doing a live stream event. It's a benefit to support the New York in
meditation centre and also the Cambridge Insight meditation sender if you want
information, you ve gotta, and why I am see dot, org and search.
Your events and to make it much easier for you,
we also put a link in the show notes and is always a big
stood a team. These people work incredibly hard.
They show Samuel Johnson, urging you producer mercy, Schneider mean our producers are sound. Designers are met point and on your sheikh from ultra violet
Maria we're tell us, are predicting coordinator
I have a lot of wisdom from our Tpa colleagues, such as urgent pliant make Toby than Reuben Levin and, of course, a big thank you, and so
to my ABC News College rang Catherine Josh Cohan him we'll see you on Friday.
For a bonus.
at this defining moment in America from ABC nurse turning point around making more thanked me all right laden pvc
Transcript generated on 2020-09-23.