For maybe see this the ten percent happier podcast, I'm Dyin Harris. Hello. My yesterday makes a fascinating and potentially life changing case here. Is that we need to reconsider how we view intelligence. He says instead of viewing intelligence as the ability to think and law and we should view it as the ability to rethink and unlearn my guest, whose name is grant says there is evidence that in a fast moving world but he calls be critical. Art of rethinking can position you for excellence. Work and wisdom in life, not for nothing world, where many of us are stuck in our own informed silos, the ability to rethink and open our minds to other people's opinions. Maybe one way we can dig ourselves out of our current social and cultural and political divisions.

Some of you may know, Adam Grant he's bound to show before is an organizational psychologist at TED Speaker, a professor at Wharton and the author of for New York Times best selling books, including one has had a big influence on me called give and take, which is all about how generosity can contribute to professional six. Yes, I am happy to report that Adam has done. It again is written a compelling and timely book. This new one just out, is called think again in this conversation. We talk about how to actually go about the job of building the skill of rethinking how the people who speak the most confidently are often the least competent and what he calls the surprising upsides of impostor syndrome. Hero Adam Grant, Adam hello. ex cannot head down at such a treat to be back. Although I have to tell you, I'm not started meditating, that's fine

Have no plans to break your for that fact. When I plan to say off, the top of this is Adam Grant has done it again. You ve read many books, but the book for me that's been. Most impact will has given take and, as I dive into This new book, I realise that this is landing in a lot of important ways for me, so just as an of one Adam Grand has done it again. So congratulations well. Thank you. I hope I don't do. You really think that, at the end of that kind of recession, that would be poetic, but I doubt it's going to happen. So speaking of rethinking, can I just get you to state the basic thesis of this book this book for is about rethinking what intelligence means in a rapidly changing world. I think in a stable worlds, which most of us for a long time thought we lived in intelligence, was basically the ability think and learn. But now we live in a reasonably turbulent world and

I think, increasingly being smart. Having good judgment even arriving at wisdom requires us to be equally good at rethinking and unloading and a lot of people assumed that those things are the same record that if I'm good at thinking and learning, I am also going to be good at rethinking and unmarried. But, as you know something, I was the better you are thinking, the worse you become at rethinking, because you can find so many compelling reasons to support your beliefs and essentially outsmart your own ability to question yourself and I think that's a very dangerous skill set, and so for me this. This book is Saying luck in many ways: twenty twenty was a year where we were all forced to rethink so many things we took for granted, whether its where we were. Or her, whether we can get access to food and toilet paper or what our seas says on racism, and my hope is that it, Two thousand and twenty one and beyond? We all get to be a little more proactive about rethinking before where forest

and saying you know what there might be some assumptions or opinions that I've held for a long time. That no longer fit in the world that I live in. I suggest you before we start we rolling. I think this of ever green importance this argument and is particularly important right now, This is the word you use in the book, it's about mental flexibility and I I struggle with it, and yet I have just found it to be incredibly import because there is like, and now I'm gonna get a little meditative with you, but I will see if you agree with me on this. I feel the more self where I become, and I'm not super self aware, but I'm somewhat self, where the more grows, the more I can see a sort of subtle pain, that's associated with dogmatism. Does that lamp for you yeah that such an interesting way to frame it, because I think for most people. What salient is the pain of changing your mind right and just how much it hurts

to admit that you were wrong to recognise that some of the major choices that you made in your life. Maybe even some of the most important decisions have made were poorly thought out and if you could back and do it over again. You might actually have different views or make different choices and that discomfort for so many people it creates a ton of cognitive, dissonance right and it's easier to be a consistent than it is to be flexible. But I think you're you're exactly right that in the long run it hurts a lot more to stick to convictions that turn out to be false, or at least ineffective. For us, there is a great psychologist, George Kelly, who had what I think is an endlessly interesting definition of hostility. He said that huh he is the emotional Rio Can you have when find out that one of your beliefs is wrong and you always suspected- was wrong, but you don't want to admit it

figure you're describing the the discount realizing wait a minute, my hostility, is coming from realising that I probably shouldn't think something that I think yes I've just experienced this over and over again. I cannot be for anybody else's experience, but my own I've experienced both kinds of pain, immediate. Both things are true. At the same time, it is painful to acknowledge you. Ve been wrong, is also painful to walk around pretending, You believe something went somewhere in your psyche. You know that maybe it's not true I'll say something. That's been helpful to me to reduce this a little bit, and this is actually comes back to your work in given take you dedicate a good chunk of the book to something called powerless communication. I believe, which is talking in a way that signals to people? that you're not dug in you're, not absolutely sure what you

that what you believe is you knows carved in stone, a version of that that I have also been taught by some communications coaches, who I work with Dan clergyman and would deter MR shut out to dance with data. They have something they call provisional language, dynamo, deter Buddhists, so they're, very much aware of the idea of impermanence, relentless nature of change, and so it only makes sense, given that non trouble law, the universe to speak in a provide general way, because that is aligned with what is true, which is that we really know what's gonna happen, and so I have that it is kind of like a self compassionate to adopt as a communication style in. AY said the area where I intend to get the most dogmatic and stuck in my ways it when I'm due working with small groups are created. collaboration like around this podcast or a book

I'm writing or a peace that I'm doing for ABC News or a course we're doing for the ten percent happier app, and I have a way of talking like I'm an acre man, I've been in agreement, says twenty to everything that comes out of my mouth. It seems like. I really believe it I'm reading it off the teleprompter. I have a deep voice, so blah blah blah and the more I sort of pound the table on something more. Israel, everybody else in the room, becomes them less psychologically safe. They feel to speak up and the more miserable I become, because I know on some level I don't really know, I think part of its interesting, that what you just said is most of us are spent. lot of our careers getting rewarded for expressing certainty for exuding confidence for being authoritative and declarative, and I think that that style of communication is not helpful either forgetting other people to be open or fur he's just questioning ourselves because

what's the the hebrew origin of Abracadabra, I learned recently I create. As I speak, and I think there is such a danger right in the more I get reinforce for telling people I have the answers, the more likely. I am to actually believe it and I think that's how we get trapped cycles of overconfidence. I think that's why we often have so much difficulty rethinking what we believe and I think there are different versions of this for differ. People which- and I would go a little bit into the mental models that I break down in the book, whether you tend to think more, like a preacher, a prosecutor, a politician or a scientists and I've been noticing. Even since writing, book? How often I slip into the wrong mental mode of which is ironic, because I thought I had figured something important now his readiness nope, like almost everything inside, It is much easier to describe to other people and explain clearly and it is to practice every day well, but I think you just

landed on the answer there it's a practice and you will get better over time. So, even if you ve literally written a book on this you're, not gonna be good at it forever every day. I think true, and it makes me wonder if it is done. If you'd written this book, would your goals have been To be a ten percent, wronger yeah, or maybe seventy five percent wronger, but I would just Here too, that incrementally too, where are the areas for you? Were you tend to end up in the wrong mental mode and then let's break down the various modes or you can do whatever or do you want yeah ATLAS? Let's start with the modes. Has, I think, there's one in particular. That gets me in trouble a lot. My colleague so tat lacquer at this brilliant paper almost twenty years ago about how to much of psychology assume that we were rational economists just in making efficient, effective, productive decisions. And we also know that dramatically underestimates the social forces that influence our judgments and our choices every day

and he said so much of our time is spent in the mode of being a preacher, a prosecutor, a politician. So when we're in preacher mode, we believe we ve already found the truth and our job is to proselytize and and so every one else on that truth, prosecutor mode similar, except it's not about me being right, it's about you being wrong and I've got to win the case and bank, all of your arguments and then in politician mode What we're trying to do is we ve got an audience of constituents and where campaigning for their approval and what I found actually fascinating about this is that preaching in prosecuting stand in the way of rethinking very clear that if I really believe I'm right and you're wrong, that's not going to change my mind and your problem Gonna dig your heels in and wherever conversation we have and imports. mode we get a little bit more flexible, but I think we we update our thinking for the wrong reasons at the wrong times, because we only change when it's gonna, please our tribe,

or when it's going to win over our audience as opposed to actually prioritizing the Ruth over the tribe parliament do as I want to get people to think a little bit more or scientifically right in saying look my opinions are not always valid beliefs. They are just their hunches, they might be hypotheses. I could test them by running experiments in my life and I might find out some of my cherished belief, sir, are actually wrong or incomplete, and why cool learning opportunities. I just discovered something I should be able to take as much and finding out that my beliefs are wrong as astronomers did when they discovered PLUTO was not a planet which really annoyed me and then I was met. I know that I got annoyed by that scientific discovery and then and then to answer a question that the modem tricked me the most is going into prosecutor mode. It bothers me at my core when people paddle false information. There's a cartoon that his

just struck a chord with me as long as I can remember the protagonists sitting at a computer and is clearly late at night and there's a voice that says honey. Why are you still up and the answer is. Someone is wrong on the internet and that's me I have the correct that. That's part o I became a social scientists is ideal. what people to believe incorrect things, but when I get a lot into that mode of trying to convince people they're wrong? It just alienates them. Where do you slip up? Do you find yourself occasion A preaching or prosecuting are politicking more than you'd intend. I would imagine that Europe much lower risk for politicking than I am you really don't care, if anyone likes you, ouch no have. If I did, I mean that, as a compliment is one of the OECD admire about you that use to be immune to flattery ends, praise and sycophants that you are come too,

standing for what you believe, regardless of what anybody else thinks I wish I was more like that, We do not really know I'm so delighted. I am to disappoint you, because I've got all three of those as Euro listen much as I got, it got a gun, known yeah. Oh I mean I think, I'm getting better not falling into those Moses, because I see how painful they are, but I dont like sick of sea because but at me I think, there's a whole we're. thing of you know somehow suspecting I'm irredeemably awful in that. You know there's that old actually writing a little bit about that very issue. But yes or no, me the one they all seem like things I do, the one that seems like the thing I do. The most that is so unattractive to me about me is the process. Heater thing if print in particular in like intimate relationships, like our you with my wife for arguing with a friend or family, amber? Where somehow the whole goal has become just you know,

leaving the other person wrong and how like not helpful, is that- and it just feels off- well, if you, like, you, know poison running through your veins so trail. Well, I won't have to some conversation here that the first one is to talk about. Why that's an effective and what the alternatives might be, but the other one is just to say this is a moment for me to rethink something which, as we know each other for a few years- and I assume- because you know you ve- you describe your tendency to be disagreeable and hard on people, and I made a leap from and assumed. You must be immune to social disapproval, which is clearly not the case, though I was wrong. I need to update this belief in Ankara who gets ratings and Pike S toes too, can see their growth of the then read the comments and so yeah I try not to get yanked around by one of the most revealing moments for me in recent memory was a father's day, not this past one but the pandemic. My son was for it

time had come into my office at ABC News and my wife, I moved into a new office. My wife is helping me set it up, cause she's, better function way than I am, and then they were home and Alexander insisted on setting up his room at home to look like my office and then Bianca took it, Video of him, marching around the apartment, saying I'm important an important there. I've had my first response was that's really funny, and my second was, I feel, seen, and there hurts like this. Kid sees right through me and yeah. Well, you're. You know that you don't make the professional decisions are made. If you dont care what other people think of you, if you don't have that in you, and so I think part of the work of growing, older and better is too like not be some motivated by that jug. That's fascinating,

it's a moment of solidarity for me, because our middle daughter, I want to say last year- did a zoom performance for her classmates, where she put on a bald and came in and said, Madame Grant and then gave a fellow TED talk good years funny, because if you felt like Maybe that was a caricature of your political whims. Are your your tendency to maybe it's more than you'd like what I are there was her Emulating me in temporary preacher mode, and I thought what so interesting about this. Is I almost never think like a preacher, but there are certain situations where I talk like one, especially If, if I know I'm gonna annoy my audience by being too much of a prosecutor, I and a sort of then taking the other side and say: ok,

This alternative that I'm really excited about it. If I can get you excited about that, maybe you let go of your wrong belief ends It's just, not the person I wanna be, and it's all, I think, not as productive as it feels in the moment. How do you effectively communicate if you're not in any of those modes? At some point, we have to pick up the pieces and make a case for it yeah. I think, there's a time and a place to be preaching in prosecco. In probably politicking too, I think, though, that but we're all grappling with? In twenty twenty, and frankly, probably have been for a while is the fact that hardest conversations whether their disagreements at work or at home are with people who hold strong opinion that are different from ours and who are really invested in their point of view, and if that's the case right, have you ever skeptical or resistant audience. Who cares a lot about the issue? We are discussing they don't wanna, be preached out, they definitely don't wanna be prosecuted and

the only real way to politic with them, is to let them that you belong to their tribe pregnant. You share their leaves otherwise you're, not one of us, and so I think the alternative approach that I've gotten reasonably excited about is actually approach, the conversation more like a scientist wood, which is to say you know, damn I'm about to have a disagreement with the on something. I don't. Let's say we discover we. We disagree, on climate change. What I would do is, instead of trying to pick heart your beliefs and hammer you with evidence when I ve learned to do from from all this research that psychologists have done over the past decade. Is to just get really curious and be fascinated by this unusual creature we can see that world the same world that I live in so differently from me and just ask you a bunch a question to try to better understand your worldview and in the process of doing that,

I'll look for a common ground and say look we we actually want to find areas of agreement as opposed to starting with the disagreements, so that we can both see each other. Reasonable human beings and then what I want to do is I want to make it clear that, even if we don't land on the same page, I actually respect you for caring about this issue than I is important and there's a bunch of research showing that people actually become more nuanced unless polarize, when there's a just a basic affirmation of I, I may not agree with your view that I respect the fact that you have a view on this issue and from their worded and probably want to do, is I'd want to try to understand. Will what arguments you find more or less persuasive so that we can at least have the discussion on terms that you find a bee palatable as opposed to bring up about the issues that you already have pre arranged? their arguments or defence mechanisms against. Have you been clear eyes at all. With the work of the group, they used to be called better angels enough braver angels, I've,

of them. I'm not familiar enough with it said know where you're going next, so tell me more. They bring it's blues together and have these conversations that I've I've witness, they seem to be quite successful in their approach? Was designed by a marriage counselor and One of the rules is never try to change somebody's mind and to try to fact land on what's called accurate disagreement and the route is through curiosity. I love this idea. This feels like a missing section of, again, where were you a year or two years ago? When I that's right, I miss you, have let me down again then Harrison's when it. What I think is in truth, about that approach- is the idea of accurate disagreement. it takes a lot of the the emotion and the heat out of an argument right, because the moment I hear disagree, at my impulse as an agreeable person is to say, run screaming in the other direction. It's gonna be conflict, I'm not going

like it, I don't want anything to do with it, but accurate disagreement as to things number one. It refocuses me I'm a higher value, which is truth and number two it makes me realize they disagree it- is not always a bad thing. because in my world of organizational psychology, one of the biggest revelations about conflict has been that there is an important distinction between task in relationship conflict where relationship conflict is what we normally cringe right. It's personal emotional hate, your guts. The world would be better if you didn't exist, and that obviously turns out to be counterproductive for all the parties involved, typically, but there's another kind of conflict Qatar conflict which is much more intellectual. It's about ideas, not about emotions, doesn't necessarily come with the judgment. We wanted debate something because we

care about getting to the right answer, and I like this idea of accurate disagreement, because it's a way of inviting people are to have a healthy tat conflict without letting it spill interrelationship conflict, which is what happened so often. What are other ideas about how to do some big? You wait tat, conflict and relationship conflict. I think one of the most useful steps is actually just to frame the conversation really clearly and a mistake that the philosophers have pointed out pretty consistently is that people try to argue to win or to make the other person loose. Whether your preaching or prosecuting what we should be doing instead is arguing to learn, and so I may come in to a conversation with. If I want to have a good task. Conflict is to say, hey dad did I know from past discussions. We might have different point of view on this issue, and I just I would I d better understand where you're coming from and so could you walk me

through how you arrived at disbelief, and you know why you stand where you do, and that takes you out of a defensive mode. It also actually lets me learned something which might be useful for our future conversations or if I wanna talk to other people who happened to share the view that dear, and there is also evidence showing that framing a disagreement as the debate helps, but I know I'm guilty have taken this too far, and I might say today how can we have a debate about meditation and three? hours later I've gone into intense prosecutor mode and not even notice that you're, not enjoying the debate and you haven't been for them two hours and forty seven minutes. So I figure that has to be applied with a little bit of caution. Have you heard of communication technique or skilled called reflective listening? I have yes,

You define it if you want to earn. My question is, though, what would that help with what you're describing in terms of talking to people without falling into the mental modes that seem to have pernicious impacts? I think what you're saying Dan is that reflective listening might be a helpful strategy, for Turkey across differences is that is the matter of listening bath. Reflective listening actually in some ways, yet reflect listening as I've been taught by the aforementioned Dan and would deter is when somebody says something to you, you kind of repeat the bones back and as concise form as planned the ball in your own language, which sends the message to them that you ve, heard them and understood your interlocutor and from is a circuit, breaker and my reflexive move to debate, but sometimes I'm debating with insufficient Standing and- sometimes my desire,

The debate is alienating, even if I properly understood it so reflected listening can deactivate the amygdala for both sides it making? How often people will talk about this is the same Listen again, how rarely they practice that right. It's I think it's one of the biggest knowing doing gaps that probably exists in our daily lives. One of the things that I I revised my thinking on values. Writing. Think again is: are you sitting that refer, did listening was sort of that it was the key scale. having an open minded, thoughtful conversation, and now I think it's eighty skill. I think that in part, because I did a deep dive and this idea motivational interviewing that comes out of counselling psychology. Have you come across this before now? Originally these two psychologists, Bill Miller and several neck, were they were working with clients who were trying to overcome addiction, and so

it added they'd. Have someone come in who had a series of do you eyes from alcohol? use or was trying to quit smoking, and basically it's interesting- is that the high fielded up until the early eighties, seem to be oriented around some degree of preaching about the better since available or prosecuting people. Having made a horrible choices and it is, they noticed work for all the reasons we ve talked about, and so with a start, Doing instead was they said. Well, what if we all reckon, is that you can rarely motivate someone else to change and your much better off. helping them find their own motivation to change, and the only can do that because you have no idea what other people's motivations, r and d you think you know about other people's motivations, the greater the risk that you're wrong. What if you actually adopt this stance of humility and curiosity where you come in saying you know, I don't have a clue. What's gonna motivate dandy change and I am curious to find up and so

typical motivational. Interviewing conversation would start with a series of questions about what is this possible path at your considering right? So you might be considering stopping drinking You don't tell me what your thoughts are around. You know why you might continue or why you might not right, and I dont have an agenda here. My goal is help you achieve whatever your goals are in order. do that. I've gotta figure out what your goals are and then what happen is in a lot of these studies. You'll give two kinds of us This is what is called sustain talk. Where do you come up with me and why you might stay the course the others change shock, where are you might have some idea? is about your desire to change or a plan, had maybe two to scale back your drinking and what I think is interesting, then is You have choices about the reflective listening that you do if you spend

too much time in reflective listening around the sustained talk, you basically reinforced people's convictions and let them stick with the drinking problem or you know that smoking addiction, whereas if you can be solved about acknowledging the sustained talk, but also in a really summarizing what you ve heard around the change talk and asking follow up questions to say: will you know why haven't you followed through that plan? So far ends? What are your concerns about doing that, to really help people think it through then, in over a thousand controlled trials. People are are likely to change. When you tell your reflective listening in the direction that actually helped them embrace a change that they themselves care about, and I think we have to be really careful about this because a lot of people here this and say ok, so I'm just gonna ask you leading questions eminent manipulate you into doing the thing that I want that doesnt work. young immediately the other person raise their antenna? You actually have to want to help them means understanding what their goals are

interviewing them about what mode motivate them to make changes that would achieve their goals, not your goals. That makes a town a sense. To me, I will say, as I've been taught, reflective listening by dynamo data. There can have two aspects of it: there's they're kind of basic reflected, listen where you just reflecting what people have just said to them also reflecting their positive intention, which is in some ways like not just reflecting what they said to signal that you have understood it, but also advocating for them in some way reaching into what they have said? sing that out and presenting it scientifically as okay. This is kind what I've heard at my right and then they'll correct you and then you can reflect a correction. Always love it. When people with very different training and experiences essentially landed the same ideas- and is exactly what a motivational interviewing is often called information. so, when you think about the scales David Motivational, interviewer uses they're asking open, ended questions engaging in reflective, listening,

making sure that you get a mix of sustaining chain shocked because a lot of people are ended. And you want a surface tat ambivalence and make them realise that they don't have a black and white view of what there. Her behaviour is gonna, look like or what their beliefs are. Gonna look like, and then this affirmation, is the idea of saying you know it dad. I believe that, if you want do you have the will and the scale to change its, place to tell you how to do that or whether you should do that. But I am confident that, if that something decide to do you can and will follow through on it. and we get back to something you said a few paragraphs ago- used Humility in this strikes me as going right to the core of your book, the new book and in fact, why meagre my wife to read this book is my wife has struggled for years now.

I was standing what seem to me to be like unimpeachable, inherent qualities of intelligence and compassion. and unimpeachable achievements in her life. As a physician, she has struggled with imposture syndrome, and you in this book talk about the upside of the humility that can come with imposture syndrome you talk about that yeah. This is one of the more fine rethinking moments for me in writing. Think again, we had adopted soon at Wharton Betsy. Terrific has now, professor at MIT, and she said: look you know. Impostor syndrome is, if you think about it, is as a syndrome its debilitating, because you have this chronic, hence that your unworthy and that people gonna find out that you don't deserve all of your success or any of your accomplishments, and it's not hard to figure out how that would hold. but back from setting in pursuing ambitious goals, were Beseemeth noticed. There was

The actual syndrome is pretty rare right people who are chronically just unwilling to believe anything positive about themselves, pretty tiny fraction of the pot, a population what's much more common, is having impostor thoughts having these moments, where we say well, maybe Don't belong on air right now, maybe I shouldn't be hosting a podcast. why why in the world, would anyone read a book that I wrote who the hell am I to have anything to say to everyone else? I can't even get my own life in order and those impostor thoughts are I'm all their common and she got curious about what needs to have a more or less often, and so she steady medical students, who are working on their their Andy's. She studied investment professionals and she quickly found that the more often you had impostor thoughts, it didn't do any harm to your task performance and had act, maybe more compassionate to the people that you are dealing with, so doctors in training, for it

people were every bit as good at making diagnoses when they question themselves. but they were more likely to reach out to a patient and say Dan do you have any other symptoms or other, It concerns I haven't heard yet because they were, sure they had already solved the problem or fix the issue that was initially brought up and then in there in the investment case, it was actually some evidence that, if you're an investment professional- and you have regular impostor thoughts that you actually made smarter decisions, because you were more likely question yourself, and you didn't lock in on your intuition. You would actually other data to say you know it instead of trusting my gut. Maybe I should test, God and find out if the patterns I recognized in the past are not actually relevant to the current investment decision that I'm making, and so I think, there's a sense in having those fleeting thoughts of. Maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I don't belong here that can become a source of humility and can lead us to question what we know

recognize what we don't know and then have the curiosity to discover new information and that ultimately We learn ass if I had a choice, we in being a little bit overconfident or a little bit under confident. I want to live on the impostors side because I'm constantly aware of how much is out there to discover- and that means instead of thinking. I'm an expert, I'm gonna be lifelong learning, the trick is you don't want the impostor thoughts to become concretize did a syndrome. That's dogging you all that I'm making you unhappy, even if it does maybe booster performance. yeah, and this is why there is an important distinction between doubting yourself and doubting, ideas or your beliefs, and so I think that the sweet spot for impostor? dream is to say. Ok, you, I believe I can figure this out. I believe that I have the capabilities to solve the problem that I'm tackling, but I'm not sure, my current vision or strategy or tools are exactly right and I think about that as confident humility,

I've seen a lot with entrepreneurs? Actually I remember asking Sarah blankly a few years ago how in the world did you decide? you're gonna be able to start spanks when you didn't have a business agree. You have not worked and fashion or retail. You didn't know anything about patents and she said I had no idea how to do any of those things, but I was called and in my ability to learn and figure it out, and I think that's the right kind of confidence. We shouldn't be confident cod that, in our knowledge, we should be confident and our ability to learn what is the Dunning Krueger effect The Dunning Krueger effect is one of the most delightful ideas in psychology when you're complaining about the ignorant person. You know and one of the most distressing ideas in psychology when you're the one who's the victim civic. Basic. Finding is that the p

who are the most confident in their knowledge and skills in any one area are the most likely to be overconfident in that area. So if you have a super bowl party- and you got a bunch of football- and gathered the one who's screaming the loudest about how the, call the wrong play. Isnt wonders mostly Clayton Bay, overconfident about is football ouch and part of that I think, is because A lot of people will say you noticed an ego problem, but it a knowledge and information problem that is David. Dunning often puts it if you lack the knowledge and skills to produce excellence. and also lack the knowledge and skills to judge excellence and tat? I had a IDA funny experience in high school and I always given the dining trigger effect comes up, which is, I had a friend who accuse me of not having a sense of humour, and I was sad

because I love comedy and I love making people laugh, and I love to laugh. And finally, I asked, after she mentioned a few times. Wider Think I don't have a sense of humour and she said: well, you don't laugh at all my jokes, now, I ll leave it to you to judge who lack the sense of humour, which I think is, is about discernment right, not just blanket laughter at anything but It is a fine example of something that we see all the time right, which is. I think that a lot of people say Research and they say well, you know it's really dangerous to be a complete novice and that's not with the data. If you literally know nothing about an area you dont tend to be overconfident, it's not the beginner right is the person who who has just felt like they became an intermediate who then experiences a rash of confidence that exceeds their competence, and so

that's when they start to believe they know things that they doubt, and I think the big question for me is what the antidote this, and I want to ask you actually Dan you have dealt with. I can imagine how many guess you ve interviewed over the course of your career, who our guests confident ignoramus it's. How do you correct for that. There are not many people have been on this show who would fit that description because of nature of the show, however, out the world in my many many decades of travelling the world now that I'm old in viewing people. I have seen this a ton and there's nothing you can do as a journalist other than not put too much of the main your story The worry I have is that very often these people have a lot of power and that just you know, speaks to me to the relevance of this book

because increasingly we all have the power of having supercomputers in our pockets, and we think we know more than we without seeing through the fact that we have curated echo chambers that are just reinforcing our prayers This is often and we're not challenging our corporate tax die see that all the time- and I just keep noticing as yes, I talk to people who are truly experts in their field. They never boasts about how much knowledge they have I hope that what they marvel at is how little they understand and how much more I want to learn, and so for me the first sign of someone being an expert. Is them saying I actually don't know, or I don't understand, and I think there's some brilliant research. That's helped us figure out how to lead people that are gently. non defensive way, which is the next time you run across someone who is just making claims to know things that they clearly doubt

instead of arguing with them just ask them to explain what they now to an x or to really unpack how it works and a cartoon psychologist first demonstrated this with. Kaliko and electronic objects. So they ask you a question. Like academics with a hobby of yours, I play the drums. You play the drums So how confidently are you in your ability? You explain a drum, produces the best sound that we all love. I have zero percent capacity to explain at you. Well, you ve clearly, rather better. No, that's actually Andrew! I mean that's. That's that's it urging sign of your intellectual humility in your willingness to think again but interesting? They if you were to ask, a lot of drummers, a lot of them would say you're, pretty confident at least I know more about that than a non drummer. Would I don't know more about it than a sound engineer? Would who doesn't know who the drums at all? Definitely not, but if it compared to the average person who doesn't play the drums.

SAM. If you play them, you know more than somebody who has no experience. Everything ET. I could see how one would arrive at that conclusion. Yes, yeah so That on average is what a lot of people will do, and you can see this not just with the drums, but you know, if you ask people as a piano, make music or how Are we in connecting over over some kind of way? the signal right now: how is the sound being transmitted to your ears peoples? miserably knowledgeable about that, and then you just go the extra step and you say will come walk me through the mechanisms when you hit the drum stick on the surface. What's going on inside the drum there, when you press the piano key? Where is that music coming from and why do the different keys make different, and people when they try to do this. They just satellite complete morons, which you clearly we're not willing to do, which I applaud, but even before they say it out loud ass, they start to think it through they re. Eyes how many gaps there are in their knowledge and the theirs for this in psychology is called the illusion of explanatory debt that

Poor people really walk through an explanation of something it's easy for them to assume they know more than they do when they have to connect the dots they can see all the horse, and at that point they become more humble, they become more care. They become more nuanced in their thinking. They become more open to learning, and I think what's powerful about this is this is not just true with complex technologies right. It's also true with political policy so, there's research showing that if you ask people why they believe what they believe they'll give you a bunch of reasons to reinforce their pre existing conventions? If you estimate dead. Well, how would you implement that policy? How would that work in practice? What are all the effects it might have? They start to see those same gaps and they actually start a moderate. What might before have been extreme beliefs, so I think how questions are massively underrated.

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Resolution on the subject of meditation. I thank you modeled on the first time you came on this show thinking again the first time you and I met- I can went down warden interview you and we did an interview that ended up on the show and also a good morning. America people go back and listen to it and I believe You came into an interview quite hostile to meditation, and we talked about it and you shifted from hostility deserve, slightly more open mindedness, and maybe realising that you had misunderstood if one or two things, but it wasn't some big fight, we had we just talk about it and I could watch you in real time, be willing to re, examine your own convictions, which you had heretofore before that stated publicly, which is even harder to to evaluate once you ve kind of gun, on the record, with something I didn't know you were writing a book about rethinking, but in a moment I was impressed with your ability to rethink

and so when you make jokes about meditation, I want to be clear to everybody that it's not like you're, somehow like dug in saying that some horrible thing to do. I think what I hear is yeah. open to it? I just haven't gotten around doing it and I may never do it so interesting about first well. Thank you. I take that as a huge, comparable that you proceed me as willing to think again can feel, I definitely want to be someone. As evidence that otherwise I'd be a hypocrite, readiness book a similar memory of that interaction, and I might have narrated it a little bit differently. So here's my version of it and you can tell me what you agree and disagree. I don't feel like I was ever hostile to the idea of meditation, I think whatever practices are effective for people and dont harm. or others and have a gun, allowing an increasingly impressive science behind them more power to area. I think when I was hostile to was being

preach tat, one too many times about negotiating an essentially being prosecuted as a non meditated, yes, and so in other than the more the more people are had. This reaction to me of what do you mean no meditate? The more I wanted to say: well, wait a bit here. You know, there's a little bit of evidence of you know some risks and side effects for some people theirs you know- and there are also other ways to get a lot of the benefits that you want ends here. Just it activated my prosecutor instincts, and I think you give me too much credit for the way. I responded in that conversation because I didn't have that reaction to you. I didn't have a reaction to you, because you did not preacher prosecuted, you had a curious, humble discussion about the science and you are. more open than a lot of the meditation experts and taught leaders that has spoken with around saying.

I believe it works for every person in every situation and I don't even think you have to do it and then you gave me the best still best argument I've ever heard for it. I remember saying something like you know if you're, trying to reduce stress or you're trying to build mindfulness reading fixed, and are exercising knew also reasonable pass, and those are my form of meditation I remember I saw you stop me in my tracks, just with a simple question, which was, I think it is. question. I remember it is a question which is can you Rita a novel, or can you do a work out in their twenty seconds before you get onstage hammock? No, I can't you ve got enough, and you said I can. I can carry this with me everywhere and it is instantly available on demand and I thought It was the most brilliant argument or why meditation is unique and what differentiates

from a lot of other practices that I think are good for stress, management or mindfulness at I'm very, very open to the idea. Thanks to you, I do want to ask you some practical question, for I let you go here. You have is really helpful thing in the back of your book, the called actions for impact with short of ways that we can develop the habit of thinking again we ve gone through some of them like thinking like a scientist, but there are others that I'd like to get into and one of them you ve reference before, but I haven't. Let you fully sort of explain head on, which is defining your. Density in terms of values, not opinions, you're telling me a new human jukebox here you have a strong and I'm in a play a year ago. This is actually a fund challenge, so yeah. I think one of the mission, so a lot of people make that prevents them from thinking again is they started, take their beliefs and as their identity?

right, so you see that whenever you hear somebody say well, I'm an Occupy Wall Street her or I may never temper, and those are statements about things you We have to be true or false, sir or good or bad, and the When you take on one of those identities. The moment you stop being willing to question the things that you think are true and false, and so, but I prefer to see people There is to define themselves in terms that are values rather than their opinions. And so my version of this is to say, look My values by core principles are generosity, excellence, integrity and freedom. Does this values the matter most to me, I am very open about the best ways to live those values, and I might find that some of the practices that I thought were good for being a generous person or for achieving success or for being a person of honor who lives by my commitments or for defending the free

of other people in and giving them autonomy, I might have been wrong about the best way to do that and I'm willing to change my mind. I love that another and I'm sorry to make you into a jukebox here. I think these are worth saying, and this one in particular, is a song that I'd like to hear. You say, because I think not enough of us to do it. Especially in the era of we talked about being able to get a cure Your own little echo. chamber where are prejudices and beliefs are reinforced and you're not challenged. You said one of the pieces of advice you you give here terms of building the skill of thinking again is seek out information that goes against your views. Can you talk yeah. I think we're all familiar with confirmation by us right only looking for information the validates, what you already believe and its causes, mobility by us, which is. We re seeing the things that you want to be true, and I think that people who, who kind of trap us in that worlds, are the our support network,

ethically right that the people who cheerily for us and encourage us and have our backs, they often are the people that are built The echo chambers are the filter bubbles around us that prevent us from seeing alternative perspectives. Think what we need is not just a support network but a challenge at work, which is the group of people that you trust to hold you accountable for open minded to let you know when you're your beliefs might not be correct. Your most thoughtful critics what are often do when you know what I'm forming hypothesis about something that I think is true is. I will reach out to somebody who I know holds a different point of view or who I know is more knowledgeable that I am in that area and asked him. Where do you see holes in my thinking. and that's a great way to to make sure that I'm not just drinking the Kool aid that I have found to be delicious crack that I'm actually learning from somebody who has different tastes? What about fur? Those of us who aren't you know formulating hypotheses as

for a living, but we're just sort of veto going about our lives are ways to seek out opposing It's a view on social media, the wayward tailoring our feeds etc. In order that could make us better citizens happier humans, yeah one of my first principles. when it comes to social media? Is that I follow people who make me think hard, not people who make me feel good and so I'm interested in ok. Do I respect the thoughtfulness and rigour and integrity of somebody's thought process, regardless of whether I think their conclusions are right or not, and that means the information that I've curated to come in front of me is not usually opinions that I agree with its opinions that really stretch my thinking, that of all my thinking in last, I checked that's the whole point of learning credits not to affirm our beliefs, it's actually to update and evolve. Our beliefs are their downsides here. You know cause I've done this experiment for the last four or five years of kind of trying to self gaslight.

By really exposing myself to his many opposing points of view as possible, because I'm I'm writing about how we can work with our own biases. I've tried to experiment and myself in this regard And I wonder, is it possible that you could become so open minded? That's you lose sight of important and really any and non negotiable truths. You know, for example, the mainstream media has been accused of a kind of both sides ism that normal lies some of the transgressions of the trumpet menstruation. Yet I think I think there is a danger. I think the the easiest way to avoid the danger is to recognise that rethinking. Doesn't have to change our opinions, open your mind without changing your might ads. What I mean by that is to say, look how you should be receptive to different points of view, especially if you have a strong conviction on an issue right

means your most vulnerable to confirmation and desirability by us, but you should also have standards. What the questions that I liked to ask other people when they're they're getting really dogmatic, is what evidence would change your mind. I want to be really clear about that. I'm not asking what would change your mind, I'm asking what evidence would change your mind, I want to have a conversation in the realm of facts and data. Not opinions and I try to hold myself to the same standards, which is this is actually someday. I learned from Jean Pierre Begone, whose super forecaster in the book who predicted Trump as winner of the republican primary. And Nate Silver had him at six percent and most forecasters thought he was a joke. This is back in November, twenty fifteen and one of them, Jean Pierre does as arguably the world's most accurate election forecaster. He be actually competes in tournaments to do this is when he forms a tentative opinion. He actually mean a list of the conditions under which he would changes might and that way he staying open.

he's also saying work, I'm not just gonna quit flop. When somebody makes a persuasive argument, I am actually gonna have criteria around. What I would consider to be rigorous logic or in a truly convincing data, and then I know that I am evolving as opposed to just a kind of aging and what might be the wrong direction? There's so much in this book, and I fear we ve just skim the surface, which I guess your publicists will be happy here- that because People have to go, read the book now, which I recommend they do. Let me just ask before we close here. Is there something that I should have asked, but didn't? Did I commit any sort of malpractice? You're? Not that I? But I have a question for you sure, which is in the spirit of the book. What do you think I should rethink Of anything that I wrote any topic, I tackled any discussion we had today. I think one my fears in writing. This book was that I was gonna, get locked in

a good ideas about rethinking, and that would obviously be hypocritical. And I don't want readers Agree with every conclusion have drawn right when I want them to do is to do some rethinking based on the framework, the data, the eye he is, and so I'm sure there are things that I got wrong or that I missed what what do you think of something I should be rethinking or two things to say. I think, if I I guess the area we are likely to get the most push back be around some, these are just wrong and I shouldn't rethink them, and she even just doing that, is going to create danger of missing the you know. The crimes at our unfold in front of us from whatever political point of view. You might have that's our I go personally. I just suspect. That's what you'll hear Ben I will say, I'm a terrible forecast, or so that may not be right. Selfishly the thing that I would actually really like to see. You rethink is willingness to try

meditation and why say that selfish I really don't want to hear what it's like for you after you, ve done a couple months of its strayed. If that ever comes to pass, it may never come to pass and certainly not pressuring you to do that. I want to frame this is purely selfish because I'm always super interested. What smart people are going to say after they've had a certain dosage of the practice. Should I react to both of us jerk. So on the meditation Frank you had me add, I would love to see you try meditation I'm up for it left. Let me know which practice you recommend I am happy to try anything that you think is worth trying. Then you ve never steered me in the wrong direction in the past, and if this is the first time that at least will learn something about where I should rely on your judgment and whereas requested it. But then you said: try it for a couple months and stir it. Sorry, if you dont have a case. I have this heuristic that I dont add anything to my schedule. Unless there's something I can subtract- and so I would

define something to remove that I do on a regular basis in order to fit this in some level, so either have to find something or have to persuade me that there is a micro version of this experiment a day or a week. Where something to be learned either for me here, for you are both. Yes, you know your right and I normally wouldn't say it that way to people I was trying to you know maybe, gently encouraged to try this, because I realized that does sound daunting. Sorry frame it to say that there is like a ten day, Introduct course on the ten percent happier app and it's only like five to ten minutes a day. So you could use your instagram earth or twitter time by five ten minutes, and you probably be happier just by dint of having done that and do instead and I'd be curious to hear your reaction, whether the lands in any way, I'm absolutely for that now Marty starting to think through. Ok, what what would motivate me to keep doing this and the reality is

I think I'll be motivated to try it and then to persist with it. If I saw some benefits the people that I care about cause I I don't feel personally like I need it, and so that's been the barriers is, if I don't have to do it- it's another task, but when I think about a few of the Khyber anxious people in my life and I'm an anxious personal ready. So the people who are even more anxious than me. I think that if they tried it with me, it would become something. I would really stick to you, because I would feel egg. Ok, whether this is really gonna, be life changing for me or not. They need something they ve tried about. Other things are not working, and so let's give, this is a real shot and if I'm in with them, maybe they'll follow through too curious. You describe yourself as anxious person. I would describe myself that way for sure, still, even after all, meditation, although I'm less anxious, do you describe yourself? anxious and you have described some things you ve done to work with it, which I up for what it's worth strongly approve of, including action

eyes and reading fiction. in the data around the impact of meditation on anxiety, which has recently strong. Why would you need the for a motivation of doing a fur other anxious people in your life instead of yourself setting the easy answers. The time commitment. If I haven't really given it a serious shot. It's because I just I feel like I have enough on my plate already- and it's the same way that I resisted for years, when my dentist told me to floss my I've never had a cavity, should I admit it, whereas I finally got gotta know that are now I'm a religious laws are, but just the idea he's gonna spend an extra minute each day. Doing something didn't seem directly productive, adjust it didn't. It didn't do for me, and so I think that's what's happened primarily

the other. The other reason that I haven't gone for it is for the most part I feel like I'm, I'm a very high functioning, anxious person that it's mostly just an internal sensation every once in a while, I feel like it affects You know it's a kind of leaks into a talk that I gave or assemble in a car four station when I've gotten nervous ends. I couldn't a lot more fluid and eloquent I don't feel like its cause, real harm issues and of a nuisance, and so I guess the new since factor hasn't for me yet outweighed the time investment, it would take. That makes sense it does, but it should read because I waste at least I waste at least as much time. Beating myself up over the situations where I was a little bit anxious and I stumbled through- an argument or an answer, and I shouldn't have. I could redirect at times

we're trying something like meditation and seeing if its effective, for me I'll, send you a resource it will be quick and easy, and as long as you truly believe that I will not cause you or follow up about it unless you actually want me to follow up. No, I'm I'm open to it and put my personal motivation for writing. Think again, was I wanted it? Is it? Isn't it an opportunity for me to plant a flag in the ground fur people that I think are extremely for to push me to rethink more often, because I know that when I have you no feisty debates, I do get too much in prosecutor mode and I wanted to make it very clear. That I'm somebody who is willing to change my mind in the hopes that there would be people who convince me to do that ends here, one of the people that I would look to you for that day, and so I am absolutely up for this. Let's do it,

if you wanna talk about it afterward I would love for my own learning and for whatever your carrier about figure has let what comes out of it. So I'm I'm up for that you're, the first person who's ever gotten me to say yes to this, and I think I was eleven or twelve parity with those little meditations at the beginning and then just going back to your your first comment. If I understand your point you're staying bed some people push back on the idea that their certain beliefs, that are our two sacred to rethink or that are too dangerous to question, I'm getting a say, for my peregrinations on twitter and constant conception of pot casts that there is a feeling of. Why are you asking me to understand the other side right now, they're so clearly wrong that what I mean

to be doing is not spending time, understanding them, but fighting their actions, which has such deeply deleterious effect. Yeah, I think that's that's affair could see it and I will direct anybody with that view to chapter eight. Because my my eye opening moment swears realising that hearing other side is not. The solution is actually part of the problem. There's there's a psychologist, Peter woman, who has a difficult conversations lab where he's Is that if you just get it both to the other side's argument, it doesn't Do any good because- is clearly wrong, you can find a lot of ways to decimated what he said is that you wanna complexity, that spectrum and say you know that it is not black and white. What you think, as a liberal conservative divide or a Democrat Republican divide is actually a complex spectrum of beliefs. That's Malta! issue and different people are different points alone, that spectrum, and so you know at you,

I don't think you're gonna make much headway with the people. Who are you know in the old right or who are you who are storming the capital right eye? I think, though, that there are a lot of people there might be. Seventy million of them who voted for Donald Trump ads I would say a fair number of them. Don't agree with everything that he says, don't agree with some of the things that he does, and I often we all need to go out and say: I'm gonna go and understands what I think we need to do. Is we need to say well, what's the most effective approach, if the goal is to try to get people to be more been on something that they have already closed their minds on then, I'm going to do whatever it takes to events, my values- and I guess maybe a different way of getting out. What I'm trying to say is. I think we Do we need to see the new out in the middle of the spectrum we need,

recognize that there are a lot of people who voted for a candidate that we may head, and this is true on both extremes. Who are one dimensional human beings and We can recognise that there are some issues that we actually see eye to eye on, were more likely to have a reasonable conversation ends. I think about. it would be a better place we had more reasonable conversations. I'm not saying with people who hate your existence or who think that you deserve to be punished. For merely having an opinion. I am saying, people who have a view. different from yours and its then too easy to demonized. I dont think we solve this problem by having less thoughtful conversation. Well said. Thank you only for common on the Pike S, but for doing the work you do. As you know, I've made no secret that given take at a big impact on meat playing a role. the book, I'm working on right now and I spent the more I talk to you about new book them, I realize this one's gonna land,

probably in a similar way. So I really appreciate your work and really appreciate you come on. As always. That means a lot to me Dan. I can't wait to read this book that you ve been working on ends. I approve. all the ways in which you make people more mindful in the world, because I think so much of thinking again is about being less judgmental in the way that we evaluate ourselves and other people end the choices we make ends you're sort of a portal people being more open minded, which is what I am trying to accomplish. You big thanks to Adam, go check out his book called think again, and I really think- and I don't have to think twice about this- I think the book is gonna be a big hit. One take as well everybody who worked so hard to make. This show a reality to point five ex per week. Samuel Johnson is our team leader. The singing

producer Dj Kashmir is our associate producer. Our sound designer is met, Boyton from Ultraviolet Audio Maria were tell is our production coordinator. wanna thank everybody from the Tb Aids side who way and with such useful. Advice on the regular gent point need Toby, Levin and Ben Reuben Owen Housman, who is constantly pitching in with helpful advice. And finally, it would be remiss if I didn't and with hardy salute to my ABC News, comrades, Ryan, Kessler, Josh tell him we'll be back on Friday with a bonus meditation from Matthew, Hepburn, the title of which, this is, I dont- want to meditate C on Friday, for There is much talk of the big question he wants to get out. there is no way out from best case studios and ABC Audio

into in plain sight, Ladybird Johnson, a new pact, asked about the power of a political partnership that somehow it doesn't show up in the many many accounts of Lyndon Johnson Presidency told through ladybird own audio diaries and available. Now, wherever you listen to podcast.