From ABC this is the ten percent happier Podcast Dan Harris again today, on the show we're talking about secrets what we commonly misunderstand about secrets and why there is such a high price, both physically and psychologically, to having secrets. Did you know that there are three eight categories of secrets and statistically, according to my guest today, you probably have about thirteen of them right now, Michael Sloppy and as these Sandford see, Bernstein and CO associate professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia, business school. He studies the psychology of secrets and how keeping secrets affects our social life and work life, particularly as it pertains to trust and motivation. He has studied the consequence of keeping secrets, including how they change our behaviour, judgment and actions and, in this context,.

can we talk about the hardest part of having secrets and the toll secrets take how other people can help us handle our secrets in a healthier way, the difference between shame and guilt and the benefit of knowing that difference, the implications of his research for managing teams and the impact of societal systems and structures on our tendency to keep secrets just say quickly. There are some brief references to abuse and other traumatic events. That people keep secret, so just a heads up on that, if you're a long time listener you ve heard me talk many many times about our companion, meditation app. You might even be a little sick of it. So you might ask: why does Harris keep talking about this? If I want to meditate? Can I just go on Youtube and search for guided meditation for free or sit in silence on my own or use another app reversal. Yes, all that you can do all those things there are met,

different ways to learn how to meditate and if you ve already found one or more ways that work for you? That's great he'd go with it. However, I do think there's something special if I do say so, myself about the relief the ship between what we do here on the pod cast interviewing, world renowned experts getting there take on issues that impact our minds on a day to day basis and the app where we share practices specifically chosen to help. You will apply the lessons learned here: the blackest there's a kind of deliberate symbiosis. In our conversation a few weeks ago, the meditation teacher seventy Selassie hit on something key about this relationship with me. Just play you a quick quote from her I'm a big proponent of what I would call integrating study in practice so combined and with our practice are what we call insights. That's why this tradition is called inside. It is these aha moments and

so great, an articulating man bringing people onto kind of disgust. Bat like what is it that we are learning and then how to Could I re incorporate that back into the practice? I will be honest. It makes me feel well that uncomfortable hearing said praise my interview, skills. She may or may not be right about that, but what I do think she articulate brilliantly Is why we're so gung HO about the aforementioned symbiosis between? work. We do here in the past in the work that we do over on the app practice and study work best encounter because your he several parts of the mind at once. That's how I learned from my teachers, in engaging my prefrontal cortex, the reading books or article two having conversations mainly those articles and books were recommended or sent directly to me by said, but then also doing the practice Is that help me sort of integrate the wisdom into deeper parts? of my mind in my body and that's really

Where's were striving to bring you hear a ten percent happier the wisdom of experts explained in a reliable way, alongside practices that help you apply which have learned. So I encourage you to give it a try by downloading the ten percent happier app for free wherever you get your apps so end of pitch. But thanks for listening, Michael sloppy and thanks for coming on thanks for having me, let me ask the most obvious question in the world. Why secrets? How did you get so interested in that? Not in a direct way? in a rather indirect way, and I think that's proved to help us learn a lot more about secrecy then was the original plan. I was originally and gradual, interested in studying metaphor and the ways in which people use it to better understand, abstract concepts. One such example of many? Was people had this curious way of describing cigarettes as if they carry physical weight, as if you carry a secret around with you, as if it can be burden sermon?

are you down and so a long time ago. Now the question was, you know why do people use This language does it reflect something more than just figurative speech and you people actually feel as though A secret can burden them, and so we ran some studies where we ask people to think about a secret. They were keeping, and it did look like when people were thinking about a secret that they were keeping. They acted in the same way as folks who were caring. Physical burden would so they judge of hills and steeper as if it were, more effort to walk up them. They judge distances as farther as if we require more effort to traverse at distances. If the secret was sort of holding you back or copper using a resources. What was funny about those studies We re seeing a burden from a secret, even in a moment when the participant wasn't hiding it and that sort of change the course of where this research has gone in the past?

is that a thinker converting you even when you don't have to hide it in a specific moment I say: ok, so I was confused, so he can be secured. don't have to hide it, but will you mean is literally wasn't relevant to the current situation? Yet our secrets can affect us in far more manners in ways, and even during the moments are, actually during moments when we are not hiding them when you're hiding a cigarette dear just sure. You don't say it: that's not so bad debts, other moments where the senior can come back and sort of return to your thoughts what's going on here. Why do secrets way us down? So much is an interesting question because you can imagine an alternate universe where secrecy is not hard rain? You don't want to make something you just don't on your mind that you don't want people to know about it. Just don't tell it to them, it's not so easy, and so understanding why we don't know that world, I think you could see

ways that things change what you have If you have a secret and something really important to you and you're not talking to other people about it, you're alone with that secret. We're not gonna, find the best path forward if you're just. thinking about it on your own you're, not gonna, find healthy ways of thinking about it. Those come from conversations with other people and sue. It turns out to be less about the moment. Of hiding and more about what it means to be living with a secret alone with a secret. So this gets us into made a little bit gooey, but none the less really crew and relevant port areas around kind of very few ways talk about this without lapsing into clean, shaven being true to yourself, being, I mean literally being You yourself being vote a ball being opened that my hunting in the right direction here, absolutely I'm people feel inauthentic for her.

A secret from the people around them and it turns out it doesn't matter but you hide it, it's the more. You find yourself thinking about that cigarette, the more you feel inauthentic for having it. So what do you recommend? Because I can think of secrets my own life and I've divulged a lot of secrets, and I can tell you that field, but you know I thought, when I wrote a book about having a draw Brown Mohammed panic attack as a result of that that I was gonna be dead, but it turned out to be just the opposite. It was completely invigorating in it. Like you, I am so much less the higher felt free or in my public movements and private movements, but I wasn't really having privately button public. You know, as news Anchorage felt much more at ease, because I was really being myself and yet There are things in my life that I don't want to divulge publicly or privately, because I feel that it would create too much pain. Yes, sir, that's where things get complicated, Wraith other people,

all are part of this, and so, as you are trying to decide whether to reveal something or not, you might have a concern. While they are built this to my partner, this could hurt their feelings or could damage. relationship or destroy our relationship, you know that's the consequences of revealing your secret. It makes a lot of sense. You would consider other things before that and so what do you do actually a really easy way out of this kind of conundrum, which has just talk to someone else You don't have to reveal the secret to the person you're hiding it from, but you know if you choose carefully and if you choose the right person, you get so much help while it still remains a secret. How do you put this to work in your own life? I try, to have secrets, and when I do, I tried it be sure to talk about it with at least some one. I try not to have a seat. That only I now, if you dont, reveal it to the person in question, though, aren't you still keeping east?

grit from that person and can it not play a sort of insidious role in your relationship right, and so these are the hard ones. maybe your relationship could withstand the they or maybe your partner, would say I recognized wasn't easy for you to tell me- and I am glad that you felt like you- could trust me that we can handle this together. If you think that's a possible if forward, then. Maybe it isn't the kind of thing that you're better off talking about you difficult conversations are never easy, but they don't necessarily get easier by a sort of putting them off. They probably in fact get harder and so If you are struggling with, you know when the right time to reveal it. How do I reveal it again? Someone else can really help you sort of come up with a game plan for what's the right way forward. Other people such fantastic, Greece,

citizen it so easy to forget that when you're used to not talking about something I'll, give you an example. This is not super loaded, but its assumes apropos The one of the things I do in my job is talk to younger employees, about their jobs, and one of the young staffers that I was talking to recently was telling me about. the fact that he had a new job and he felt very insecure about the fact that there were things that he was being asked to do that he didn't actually know how to do it. Wasn't that he's not smart he's very smart. He was that he'd literally hadn't been trained on these technical programs to edit videotape, and I said the first thing is: do trust your boss, yes got to go, tell them a sap and he did it and you got trained any feel so much more confident. The spill over effects were drama.

beyond just the acute issues related to his job responsibilities. He found himself feeling more comfortable speaking up in it four meetings, etc, etc. It really lifted await that example Serve really nicely illustrates that some secrets to have it timeline where you know, maybe sooner is better. He got the information, it had sooner, and that would be really helpful. And certainly if your situation is that you're trying to decide what do I do it? thing that might get where it says you wait longer. You know it sort of that's one clue that maybe start talking somebody about their sooner and to get this another perspective. If you're not talking about this thing, that's in your life with other people, you're just stuck You're one perspective on your own animal be challenged in a way that you wanted to be challenged yet some ways the net result of Research, and I want to dive into more of the nitty gritty. Other bit seems like that: a huge task

the way is talk to other people. Social connection is important Yes, on the one hand, it feels lobbyists, but on the other hand, people don't do it you find that men are tougher nuts to crack here than women Thinking about gender differences, one thing that we have looked dab is related to this question. You're asking. Is there some sort of different rates of secrecy and it doesn't look like there's different rates of secrecy across men purses women, but they do seem to confide secrets and others differently in this. Is this point we're time before? If you have a secret that you're not telling personae, you can talk to person be about it, it still secret from prison. So you can find a secret in the second person, while still maintaining secrecy from the original person, and it seems that women can find their secrets more often and then do men. Men are more likely to have a secret entirely to themselves, and I think

It's happening. Probably there is to get help to talk about a secret. That's a request for help in some manner maybe not explicitly the required sort of opening yourself up in and making yourself vulnerable in seeking others support, and some of those things are tied up with gender stereotypes. That's like white men won't stop tasks for directions. I first stumbled upon your work because I read a reference to it in a book by share in Salzburg the great meditation teacher she wrote a book. She read many books books in question here is called real love and I came over the exact context, but you talking about a study you did with gay men in this study. What we were trying to sort of get at the sense of you know the meaning behind these actions really matter as an but makes it a secret hard is not sort of the technical aspects of holding it back.

harmonization, but what it means to be holding it back, and so in this study we recruit sample of game. and they were in one of two conditions in those conditions there talking to an interview or who is asking some questions, and they were told that this is a study on an impression formation. and were to show your video recordings, other people and there it is mixed Judgments about you and work. It ask you to try to hide some part of yourself from them. When we record this, video in one group of participants was told to do whatever they did not reveal their sexual orientation the other group discipline was told to not reveal their extra version in we get a little lucky here, because we are hoping that our participants, but I doubt if I has extroverted in almost all data all, but one and what's nice some of the non verbal features of sexual patient and men. An extra version are similar early stereotypically, so expressiveness sort of costs

and both of those, and so we thought asking them to conceal or to start to hold back the extra virgin they might do something similar and their non verbal behavior, but the meaning is totally different and sure enough for the folks you were concealing their sexual orientation and follow up supposedly that he was over and someone was just walking by the rumours that hey can you help me move some of those stacks of journals over there and the folks who just concealed their sex orientation where less inclined to help as if they felt burger gender fatigued by having gone through the exercise of concealing their sexual orientation. So interesting, do you have it sense of what the physiological mechanism is their suit. The short answer is that we already know concealing secrets is stressful. At least anecdotally people was it's kind of stressful, to hide something back in the moment, if not operator uncomfortable, but found in our own research. It's even stressful suggest simply think about a secret, and we ve seen that, even with their cycle, physiology BC sort of the markers

killing sort of aroused, in stressed by just simply having to think about your secret. We established in the course of this conversation that one of the big answers here, if not the big answers you talk to other human beings, However, I suspect you're not advising us to literally just spout our secrets all the time to anybody who cares to listen. That's correct the person you choose matters quite a bit So we ve done research on what people are looking for and a confidant. So I can tell you what people find very helpful. Usually will align with me. You'll find have on people are more likely to, and fight and people that they see as compassionate in our path taken carrying and kind.

And in warm people also like to confide in people who are assertive, someone who might push you to do something after you tell them what the problem is. Someone who just gives you the push that you might need. Those are things that people like in a confidant there's some things that people find less helpful in for not which is mere politeness. So someone who's is more concerned with sort of social norms and rules. People don't find be very valuable in confidence and then also folks, Europe we socialists, extroverted internal bubbly, happy go lucky. People tend to also not too late to confide in those folks either, whether maybe you think, they'll sort of blab talk about their see. Greater assertive have too many connections, with people that you now in it does turn out that the more you have overlapping networks. If your secret is about,

someone in that network. You're asking a lot to sort of could fight a secret to that person could now they have to keep the secret on your behalf, and so what this? All as up to is you should look for someone who will be helpful, but also someone you can trust your secret with someone who can keep your mouth shut thinking, is you don't need a very positive response to feel better? In fact, even a lukewarm response from confiding a secret we find is seen as helpful. They makes people feel better. That's all it takes good, ok but if you knew they told me it was fine, you know, maybe they weren't the most helpful, but it still feels good to have these conversations, and

if someone to you will have that helpful conversation for you and will be discreet, will be very helpful. Have you look at in your research? What, if any benefits there are for the confidant? Yes said there are both benefits and costs So the cost us my treat the secret as if it were your own. If someone combines a secret in you, It's about like your best friend like now, you have to hide secret from them, and now the secrets gonna be on your mind and we find even having another per secret on your mind, can feel burdensome, but there is a good two people understand that confiding a secret.

As an actor intimacy in an expression of trust in your making yourself vulnerable signals, a lot of trust for that person. I guess another cost would be. I know somebody who is perceived to be it is genuinely compassionate as a consequence, a lot of their time is spent talking to people about their feelings, and that can you know just prevent this person from doing their own work Does that add up to you? That's entirely right to me, it's interesting to think about who those individuals arm there's this term a most, A labour that is more in the context of certain professions require emotional labour, but you can imagine someone because they're so compassion in carrying in such a warm resource that they sort of take on more burden of other people's secrets like a totally see that that they, sort of the extra emotional labour to work through because their such an attractive, confidant.

and yet I found my own life- that while I do has worry about the cost. To my time, worrisome much but haven't carry somebody else, a secret good. I guess maybe nobody's ever told me something so burdensome that I just aids wade me down. But the feeling of being useful of being trusted. The intimacy that created to me just now, and one here that being confided in the benefit seem to vastly outweigh the costs so too in anyone, you know who won't work as a continent and who won't like you choose their. Tourism at its meeting in it, doesn't take much. The response has been very negative free to feel it has backfired. Can each take us on a stroll through your research, what I must have been how its morphed overtime, The original insight was that it seems to be that there's something burdensome about c

its other than the moment when you're hiding him. And so what is the nature? that burden in when does it affect us. We see that first of all, people report having their mind wandering returned to thoughts of their secrets much more frequently than they actually have to conceal their secrets and ensue, even though the whole point of having a secret has to conceal it whenever required. That actually turns out to be a relatively infrequent experience. First of all, no one's asking about your secret CIA, no one's asking if we ever cheat on your partner, no one's asking if you ve ever cheat on your taxes. These aren't sort of normal questions to ask people and Their only relevant to some of your conversations and so the actual task of keeping a secret, even though that seems to be the sort of stressful part, one where it can hurt you the most doesn't happen very often but of all the time in the world to think about your son. on your own if you're choosing to be alone with the secret, your guaranteeing that year

have to think about it once in a while? A few choosing not to talk about this thing Other people there's only one, then you you're leaving sort of left over to our through this. Your own mind, the bad news, is you're not going to get a job if you choose to do it alone. most. Certainly it will be less effective in less healthy. Then, if you sort of brought someone else into the conversation When you find your mind returning the thoughts of your secret, we see a sort of ways in which that is more fallen ways in which that can be more harmful. For example, the more folks are really focused on the past one thing about their secrets: those are deftly more people at risk for these harms of secrecy. You can't change the past and so

sort of per separating on that past is probably not gonna. Get you anywhere very useful when folks are more thinking about the present and the future thinking about secret seems to be more productive and less counterproductive, because we also tend to feel bad about these things that were keeping secret. This is why were keeping them secret in the first place, were concerned. That people will judge us negatively are worse are more harshly because we have feel bad about our secrets that there's these two emotions that are quite frequently part of the story. Shaman guilt, folks. Sometimes uses words interchangeably, but psychologists have this important distinction that they make where people who feel shame they think of themselves, like I'm a bad person, whereas when you feel guilty, you think I've done something wrong, my behavior is bad so my haters bad, his guilt, I'm a bad person, his shame and the problem with feeling like a bad

send the problem with feeling ashamed is there's no magic pill that turn someone from a bad person do a good person. If you feel like you're a bad person, it's really hard to understand how you can change that into folks will feel helpless and perilous to change if they feel ashamed. But we ve found it it's can change that easily. If we just ask you to stop thinking about how this reflects on, who you are, it doesn't have to be that way. Think about how this reflects on your actions Your behavior me be wrong, and if that's the way, you're thinking about it, that's good cause. You don't have to act that way. Next time, you can do something differently. next time and that's why it's really helpful to understand to serve evaluate. Behavior negatively rather than yourself, and when we sort of help people understand that distinction and wreck As you know, it was my action that was wrong. They feel better said the Good NEWS about this distinction is. We can just simply pointed out to our participants and when

Ask them to recognise that they may not think about this as reflecting poorly and who they are as a person when we get them to instead. Think about this, reflex poorly and you know something I did once that makes people feel more capable of coping with the secret. They recognise that can do something different going into the future, and so, when we sort of pusher participants way from shaman toward guilt. Much more healthier outlook follows they feel more confident in they feel like they no passport, but more of my conversation with Michael sloppy and read after this it's time to enjoy the view. Wherever the day takes you come on now have no fear the veal girls. I hear the biggest names unafraid to share their views and hold nothing that we talk about. Baines on this show that people who don't talk about and now Amy sees the view is available as a pod cast with Lippy joint Sarah Sunny Megan and then this is gonna be good in joining the EU.

Gas debris on apple broadcast or your favorite podcast at every week day afternoon, walk back to adds up as we had in the second half of this conversation. First heads up this conversation was recorded during a time. covert rates were very high in the United States, so that some helpful context for our conversation about the intersection of secrecy and covered and also toward the end of the interview you're going to hear one of our producers Dj Kashmir chimed in so you'll hear DJ, asking a great question of our guest I like to producers into the game once in a while. So here we go once again with Michael slept in I've. Curiously study design. Mainly you talked about the study of the gay men earlier, but how do you study grits in the lab, the inn, lab part is something that. I have a lot of thoughts on by in the lab you mean.

Security in a lab space, where we sort of created a secret from nowhere near the sort of classic full experimental control. Like there's one person in the room and you're trying to hide that enough from another person kind of like the study I was just grabbing earlier. I don't think that kind of study has very much to offer in terms of helping merely understand about our secrets The reason is that the lab cities are just to artificial. Not only are they to artificial, there only get to tell you about the psychology of a secret born five minutes ago. You just can't get the real kind of weighty secret that we ve been thinking of into the lab. You just can't If you could do it posed ethical problems, but you can't anyway, you can create a cigarette that someone's had for ten years in the laboratory. Just this is impossible.

and so the way I do my research is say you know what we're going to sacrifice experimental control and instead just learn about people's real secrets. We're going to ask you about that, four secrets: they're keeping and worker to learn how to secrets affect them day to day and how they hurt, and we ve come up with this list of common categories of secrets that we use in our research and its a list of these thirty, eight common experiences that people keep secret and the average person from that list has thirteen that those thirty eight categories of secrets. Ninety seven percent of people have at least one those categories of secrets right now and sue. We ask not just about one of your secrets but per each secret. You have from this list. We look at these variables, the interest and so were looking at the psychology of sort of all your secrets, both your big ones, inner little ones, rather than sort of

letting them in the lab and looking at the effects about, can you walk through some of the categories? You don't have to list all thirty eight, but yeah. You know their unity, exactly what you expect a lot of sea. Around sexual behaviour, fidelity mental health. A lot of discontent and discussion, by their social life, are your professional life? Are your physical appearance on their love secrets related to work, whether that sort of poor performance, Martinique, cheating in some capacity, things like that? Would impostor syndrome fit in here, didn't think I'm so there is a grey area that sort of complicates things where for its account as a secret, at least in my book. You have to specifically intend for that information to remain unknown, as though there might be things that I don't know about you the reason they don't know about. Those things is just they haven't yet come up in conversation.

and you'd be happy to discuss them if they were to now would be different or it maybe it's that people don't know about you and you wouldn't normally just tell anyone, but you would tell someone that you felt close to and that sort of privacy for it to count as a secret. You have to really specifically not want other people too now, and so, for example, if you felt like you have This impostors in German is really important to you that people not now, that, if you really feel like you are holding back from them, then there are definitely a secret. So if you had posture syndrome- and you don't want anybody at work to know, but you did talk about it to your partner or shrink than it wouldn't be a secret, oh, no, would still be a secret at work and way you down as a consequence. Yes, but then the Good NEWS is, if you're talking about it with other people, they're gonna give you some useful advice and there could be a secret that you ve told everyone at work.

But not Europe, romantic partner, Ray I'm. So a lot of people can still no a secret, but as long as it still unknown by someone else in New York, because your keeping it that way then install secret as you said earlier, you can relieve some of the burden by talking to somebody, even if you don't tell the aggrieved party exactly That case I would describe as confiding in a third party while maintaining secrecy from the original person, but I think the hard fact here is there may be times where we really have decided that for our own safety or for the mental health, somebody else we're gonna keep a secret from the victim or whatever from the relevant party. When I talk about it with others, nonetheless, we're gonna be paying a cost, even if we talk about it with others to reduce the cost right again back to your dad. As so, it sounds like the bulk of the day, raised from direct interviews with actual human beings. Yes, and we engage those over the internet,

so we don't do it in person, because I think people are much more comfortable admitting these things and sort of the anonymous internet space, and so people a little bit more comfortable in that environment via its mostly with Americans, and so there is this need for future research to understand what John Why is tat our culture is? Are you know what doesn't? This goes back to the question of serve being true to yourself or authenticity, as the kid say, keeping it real. Do you think we can tell when somebody's secretive her or, to put it another way, giving other people can tell when we're holding things back, This is a really interesting question that I have recently been thinking about myself and so there's a few different ways to think about. This If our thinking about the studies in the lab those studies where we bring to people into a room under some,

You know clever reason. Have one person conceals something from the other person when we're talking about those kinds of studies? What's interesting is that you can't you can't tell people can't tell whose concealing whose holding something back into a sort of being honest. If that's that comparison, and so in some ways, people can't tell in some ways it would have to be this way back As for not mind, reader is right. I can't know exists. What you're thinking unless you tellin me now, if you're in a romantic relation shaped and you ve been with someone for a while, and you kind of no when something's bugging them, then it's a little different when you recognised when you can see, someone seems to not be fully opening up. I think you can tell that that doesn't mean Sally keeping a secret, but you can see how those things are related

I get that there would be no secrets there be no point in even attempting to keep secret if we were mine readers and yet you have established that their psychological and physiological costs to having secrets and that it can interrupt the sort of authenticity. So I'm just wondering there must be some sort of social costs to being secretive in that people might not trust us or that there we animal listing we we can pick up when somebody's, not all the way, honest! That's a great question! You are right that if you're these this keeping a secret and doubts isolated. One thing I intend to keep this thing secret from these people and then there's being secretive and, of course, being secretive means are more likely to have more secrets, but when folks are secretive here, that is something that people can recognise. That is.

Is pretty closed off. That is no did someone sort of doesn't reveal a allotted information about their private life are just their thoughts and feelings. They'll seem both more closed off and folks who are prone to secrecy in this way, There are also very reluctant ever ask for help. They sort of feel like their problems, are too great to bring up with other people so being secretive, especially harmful, because it means you often don't get the support. You need your sort of not opening up with people to the extent that others do One thing that strikes me as potentially I'm not all secrets, let's be honest, have to do with our own perceived misbehavior might keep secret that you were victimized. There are lots of things you could keep secret, but one potential fix only from a Buddhist perspective here,

to some secrets would be to lead as ethical a life as possible. I mean it's often referred to as the bliss of blamelessness. No proof. action is not on offer here. I don't think, although I guess from them at him this believe in enlightenment would disagree with me, but but nonetheless, I don't think from the US enlightened worldlings if we're gonna be perfect per se but wouldn't one thing that would under cut the need for this, rather, as you ve demonstrated sort of noxious tool b to live as ethically as possible. Yes, that would certainly help with the secrets that touches sort of wrongs and harms and immoral behaviour is the sort of course, the other secrets secrets around sexual orientation that you know secrets around preferences secrets are on mental health and belief in ideology. There's still those secrets, of course.

Of course, in at an like, I said, veal, you may be the victim of a crime that you don't want to admit and centre of abuse in your childhood. Many people keep that secret for lots of reasons that are understandable. You talk about beliefs. What are your thoughts on secret says? It pertains to the current political environment we ve collected some day. back in two thousand. Sixteen, if we can all remember world before Trump, was elected president at that time. Like other folks, we thought Hilary plan. Who's gonna without election, and we are really interested in something that was happening at the time, because there is this sort of secret invitation. Only Facebook group that went up that two thousand sixteen election or in advance of the two thousand sixteen election, that was for people who supported Clinton. but for whatever reason that, like they couldn't voice that support publicly the people around them- and here was a group where you could feel safe, voicing our political support

so we designed to study in the lead up to the teeth, sixteen election, imagining that the prototypical person, with keeping their vote or political preference or beliefs secret. We're going to essentially people who were secretly supporting Hillary Clinton without we might see a lot of, for example, women in Red States, who didn't want admit husband that they were going to vote for Clinton? We were very surprised when that was not the prototypical secret. Voter we saw a sheet of unexpectedly, very large proportion of Trump voters and our data is all the more remarkable because this was a context where people Lena Little Liberal from the population we are drawing from, and so, despite drawing from a slave, liberal population, when we specifically said ok, we're interested and people who are secretly supporting one candid but telling people their voting for someone else. Those people overwhelmingly trump supporting and what was interesting was that they were especially concerned for their reputations

and this is why they were keeping their two thousand sixteen vote for Trump Secret. It says a lot about why, potentially, why polling day, exist until this day yeah you that I think this is part of that story. I think that stories complicated and super nuance, but at least when we put up an ad saying: hey where it really interested in folks who voted for one person, but didn't tell people about better, even told people. They voted for someone else that add just pulled in a bunch of trump voters and we were superstition that we could even get that many people to report this kind of preferences in this sort of liberal leaning population, and so who are these people keeping secrets from their spouse in their family, their friends, people that are very close to, and I think that one lesson from that research Is these are people you can talk to you? I think these are conversations people should be having, but they're, not

how do you think about secrecy in the context of a global pandemic I've been thinking about that as well. I think what's interesting about this time right now. It is if you are engaged in some social activity, even if you started following all the rules, even if its distanced in your rang a mask, if there's like a photo that goes up. Maybe you know on a photo to up on Facebook as because you're afraid of sending the wrong message, and so I think people feel like they can't. reveal potentially these everyday behaviors and there's some potential concern about doing the wrong thing and sort of publicizing that so we're being secretive now about breaking the court and quote rules yeah. I think so I mean I think,

people are taking sort of little vacations where they can and sort of China the hush hush about it, and I guess you would argue their psychological cost to that. He I mean there's all kinds of costs and that this actually just here at home, you know budget students got ensure, of her travelling men, breaking the rules that they agreed on the university rules, and their students, real ramifications of sort of getting caught. You met. This gets back to the ethical peace. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions we carry about secrets and secrecy. I think the biggest misconception is that the way in which a secret hurts you is the stress. of hiding it in conversation and the reason why it's not helpful to have that idea. Besides, that, it's wrong is you're, not understanding where the real harm is

if you don't know how your secret hurt you, it's can be really hard to find a way forward or to reduce those harm if you don't really understand where they're coming from so secrets, create these threats strange blind spots because we're not about them, we don't understand them as well as we could. We don't even understand how their hurting us and so is really helpful. Understand no, actually, where your secret is hurting you it's not about hiding it. It's it's about being alone with it, because when you your stand. I suggest a very different path forward. I think you said having you secret is less and act in a state of being. we know over and over, because I've had many many social scientists, on the show- and it just seems like the one of if not the keys to human flourishing is social connection and anything you do that inhibits. That is likely to have significant backdrop.

tat. The only way to connect with other people in this world is space sharing experiences with them. That is what their connections are made at it and said, back from that you're sort of holding back from the primary way of connecting or you significantly more secretive before you drove into this world of research. I think so I think try to have fewer secrets. They often say researches me search epithet. I thank you for not asking me to rebuild a secret I've defiling, not asking that DJ. Do you have anything? I mean I'm a personal question image go loved. Why? Just so I hear down on this like concept, bad living a more ethical life might reduce some cigarettes, and when I hear you, Michael on the notion that there is some that are kind of unrelated to that and when I'm thinking to clear about what you are saying around

sexuality or what you are bringing up there in around abuse like it feels like there are some pretty strong structural forces that are supporting secret, but it's not just the people- are making bad individual decisions that like society, is teaching us too. Be ashamed, and I was just wondering if you could I'm wondering if that's a correct. Say and make? If you could talk a little bit about? You know beyond individual choices we can be making like. Is there anything else we should be talking about here when we talked about the damage of holding the stuff in bed? So I think a really great example of this. You know that the costs of holding certain conversations back, you know it's very easy to see with, for example, the the me to phenomenon- and you know that the meeting that that has

It's a people to come forward in the way they felt they couldn't before, and so now we're having these conversations that we weren't having before and we should have- and so you know and people are keeping secrets when people feel like they can talk about something it sort of reduces some needed. Conversations that need to be had they can really block meaningful change, either as very perceptive. A wise question, I think we tend to think of secrecy, is something as do with individual decision making. But in fact there are societal structures, strictures incentivize us to actually not say things that would be healthy to say in particular, I thinking about sexual identity, but there are lots of areas where we need to think about this issue structurally, that land for you dad

thinking about how to make people feel comfortable talking about these things, one of the unique challenges of having something that's a secret and that you want to talk about with other people, but for some reason, aren't if it's not the kind of thing that I'm just been conversation, you have to bring it up and that can be hard that can be hard if it's not the kind of thing people talk about. That can also think about the system. Who is in a leadership position at a company and within teams that that company there's this concept of psychological safety, where, if everybody on the team No matter where you find the hierarchy feels comfortable speaking out saying things that otherwise they might keep as a secret or hold is a secret. The team will function better, and so those of us in positions of authority need to really think about what incentives were providing consciously or subconsciously how to create those

Feelings of safety to reveal something and sort of makers are vulnerable and doing so and feel safe. To do that, I was giving a talk recently too a business unit at a large fortune, five hundred company in the head of business unit opened up by two. Thing about his own anxiety and imposture syndrome and and mentioned that he had mentioned this several times, and I just think that kind of modelling of just basic humanity and frailty really incentivize as other people to actually be themselves There is one of the easiest ways to make someone feel more comfortable opening up. Is you opening up to them? First, they feels very natural. The sort of reciprocally exchange disclosures final question from a: U dedicated your life, as I understand it to the study of secrecy. What is the impact you hope it has on the world, the impact

I would hope for is- were bringing these secrets into everyday conversation and helping people understand, you're, not alone in having secrets, in fact, quite common. the average participant in my study has thirteen secrets from this list of thirty. Eight that we have, and so secrecy is, credibly, common and the kinds of secrets we keep her pretty similar to some raw keeping the same kinds of cigarettes, we're, not alone in that process, and so that's one thing, just understanding how common secrecy is in and that your experience is shared and then helping people understand what's harmful about that experience. They may not be what you might have expected. It's not the moment. when you have to buy your tongue, it's when you have to just be alone with us, great without others- help in helping people understand that the way forward is you don't have to reveal the secret to the person, but just getting some help

Other people feel uncomfortable to talk about it and getting their guidance and advice and support. Yes, sounds like a more open world, yeah No, it's not that you have did reveal all your secrets tomorrow. It's ok to have some it's just. We feel we have more than we need to Michael. It's been a pleasure to touch you think, Having me thanks again to Michael. This shows me by Samuel Johns Dj Kashmir can buy a Maria. We're tell and gent point with body engineering by ultraviolet audio and as always, a hearty salute to my ABC News. Colleagues, Ryan Kessler, Josh CO hand was seen stop.