From ABC. This is the ten percent? Have your bike ass dead Harris? I once saw this fascinating graph. I've never gotten out of my head. It showed that happened levels are really high when you're young and then steadily did through your twenties. he's in Fortys and bottom out in the early fifty's. Which point they do a sudden and sharp rise through sixty. and he's eighty is way above where you were, in your youth. Obviously, this is an aggregate but it fascinating, none, the less and- and my question is: why is this, why do yet happier, even as our bodies are falling apart and here's another question: why

the standpoint of evolution. Do humans stick around way past the point of reproductive age. The answer to both of these questions per my guest today is wisdom. Doktor delete just eight is a distinguished professor of psychology. It you see SD and the author of wiser the scientific routes of was. Compassion and what makes us good doctor just believes that wisdom can actually be measured and studied and on an even more rat go and profoundly awful note. He believes it can be practised and developed as a skill which, as regular listeners will know, is the core notion of this. Shell, in this conversation, we talk about how exactly doktor gestate defines wisdom, what people of all ages can do to become

eyes are now. Instead of waiting to grow old to reap the rewards and the relationship between wisdom and loneliness, which is particularly relevant, of course, during a pandemic, just a few content warnings, the conversation does include a few references to sensitive topics, including suicide, substance, abuse and depression. Also, a technical note. You may hear some shifting and rustling at certain points in the recording, that's just the nature of remote recording in a pandemic Before we do have in with duck just a one, quick item of business, some exciting news: earlier this year we ran a survey of our listeners. Thousands of you answered all series of questions about your experiences with the show and we in turn loose

to you, it turns out one of the things you really don't like is the ads on the show we'll be right in the middle of talking about the pernicious impacts of mass media, the importance of self compassion or out of it the blissful state of attention and focus, and then jarring voice elbows its way and tries to commit you to watch a boxing match or try a new diet or by a car. So we ve heard you on this and we're gonna try something new. This show the ten percent happier Bach asked is now available. Ad free inside our companion, meditation app, which is also, as you probably know, called ten percent happier. So listen to all of our episodes without ads inside the app when you subscribe, related wisdom sounds distraction so to get started. Download the ten percent happier APP and the Apple Appstore open the app than tap on the podcast have at the bottom of the sea,

and good news as promised. This is now available on both I S and Android. Ok, that said, dive into my conversation now with doktor delete jesting delete just eight thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on your shoe than have been looking forward to this cause. There's this such an interesting subject to me. I want to gets, I wanna, sir, I think started what I believe is the beginning, which is How you started to muse On this subject of aging in the beginning, I understand that one of your early questions was why? Why do humans in a live so far past our physical prime? I was born and raised in India and, like most he's some cultures

People in India believe that older people are wiser. There is also A scripture in him, the relation called the guitar slighter indian Bible, if you run, and that's really compendium on practical wisdom. What we sure do in their everyday life to be wise. So those two things I grow up, I didn't: much about them until decades later, but the affected my thinking for a very long time was billion dissident brainer, mind side, how'd. It go into psychiatry before the vote. Is for many people. sanity, why I'm doing psychiatry, but I thought that was fascinating.

And because I was invested in research, I decided to move with. States forgot, the MECCA research is in age and there I became a pediatric psychiatrist and were to San Diego from there. Some of my friends said: why are you doing Juliet psychiatry? It must be so depressing because most men The illnesses are incurable. An aging all blooming dome What I found was that, as people got older returned without mental illnesses, they seem to get happier ten percent happier

percent happier and saw that emotional regulation improved compassion, improve, and then it suddenly struck me that what I grew up with in India was older. People are wiser, so is TAT really a scientific fact, but that's what they decided to study and how does that relate of a decision? Is that a great story, a great trajectory in Euro, serve intellectual Britain, professional development. But let me just loop back to this question. Is I've heard you posted before, which is from an evolutionary standpoint? Why do we humans live passed? The point where we can you know content carry things and build things. What why does net? Why didn't actual selection decide to keep us around,

Well, past, our physical prime debtors, exactly the caution. Actually, I had force similar dictates that you wonder I gave it. He does not make sense from the Darwin perspective of survival of the fittest. Both armies habit, he says, is that animals wordpress out in the jungle they died soon after they lose their fertility, because what a species to set a while, we must replace them data once the baby's, so we are useful to species only so long as we can produce babies right and you won T have a age of many in women around forty five, fifty similar, age for Andrew about men. I didn't put forty five fifty that age has not changed over centuries

the age of monopolies and under what has been around forty five. Fifty since time immemorial said that has an unchanged and yet the average lifespan keeps on increasing, It was forty five in the? U S in nineteen hundred trade is eighty one in a few big it'll be ninety That is, if somebody links to asian ninety, they were spent half of their lifespan without producing babies. In other words, not being useful to this piece is survival asset. That was my question. How does a nature allow that any will facilitate DEC? Did you arrive at an answer yet so directly similar answers to that top. Most important, as can be seen as a talking shop to me what some

Grandmother hypotheses of wisdom, the grandmother hypotheses states that, when grandmother helped her daughter richer There are no doctor, loser, ongar is happier and is more fertile than a mom was She put it more children than the mandate. So although the grandma cannot produce stood anymore, she helped the next generation. Lou longer and be more part. I saw the crime is contributing to the species survival. by helping the younger generations, no longer? But before forty

had been shown in dolphins, rouse some species of birth and in humans at these as papers published in the top channels, such as science and nature. So this is not some feel good businesses. It is real science that shows that the nature is helping older people to help the younger generation. Sir. Why longer so It is compensating for the loss of forty ready by allowing them to help jungle generation new longer and be more for day. That there's one explanation. There's also other things while just connect the EU you can read my mind. That's one explanation and at its incredibly interesting. But- and I may be missing something here- it doesn't necessarily touch on wisdom, which is where you began in this conversation, and so I'm wondering

Is there an evolutionary need for wisdom in our species? I'm glad you're asking the question. Studies have shown that ban older people are involved in raising younger generations. Those generations actually learn a lot from their grandparents are granted in subsidies and what the older people are doing. Distressed me, son of culture, wisdom to the younger generation and that's not often include it in the typical evolutionary juries, because typically one Can I tell I'm not any pollution biologists, but from what I know it to be

meanwhile, mainly things related to survival and genetic contributions. But I do think that this culture contribution are as important as those going you for species survival. It's also worth noting that we, who months monopoly. have a very long lifespan after release forty ready, but we start haven't. I believe you to produce babies before our brains have fully develop. A yeoman can have a baby as soon as he or she reaches puberty. So a twelve thirteen fourteen. We can produce babies. The brain is continuing to grow up to our lessons and early twinges, very something hostility pruning that occurs during our.

isn't so is really rare that we can produce babies and have them for almost a decade before our brain is fully developed. That makes no sense at all. That's where the grandparents have absolutely critical hands out this grandmother about his wisdom. I think goes beyond just talking about Tis, imprison fertility, shocking or transmission of cultural value is really the culture wisdom that is important for desperate and how are you defining wisdom redefine of his chum as a personality treat society trade like resilience, optimism neurotic ism, extortion intervention. So it refers to a specific set of behaviour that we all have right, but wisdom is different from others in that

the complex shape it does say what our different components and what others components the most important is, but also behaviors. King said we do for other people rather than selfishly for ourselves. At this enclose impact, he compassion, I reason Empathy means understanding and sharing somebody's emotions are top compassion goes beyond that. It was helping another person and already some means helping others without expecting anything and Rita. So, for example, if I don't get to a charity and ass for tax break, have not exactly altruism but there's nothing wrong with that too, but I presume, is our team compassion. Where did you do it? Without it,

acting in its mandate. So this empathy, combating altruism, found a broad social behaviour which are the single most important competent. A business then comes emotional regulation control over emotions. I think about a teenager, he's emotions ruptured from minute two minute right and I think about wiser older person, pretty com control contacting since try MILAN. So then he motioned regulation. The target is self reflection: the ability to look in a worse understand our own behaviour, typically Something goes wrong like an unstable

the blind somebody else of the environment, but self affliction miss I asked myself did I do something wrong? How can I do something better next time so that a self reflection then comes something which is sadly lacking in today's world, which is accepting diversity of perspectives, so I may have strong helluva or something, and I believe in those. but I can understand why somebody asked me how different set of values I don't have that leave that person back. I can respect another person having different set of values. The next and always kind of balancing. That is decisiveness, because I cannot be sitting on the fence all the time and saying this may be right that maybe that I'd be decisive in need it and, finally, the last four campaigner. Spirituality spirituality, different promptly jostling, as you know, them very well

it really not organise an illusion, and it is can be speech. What spirituality to us means costs connected this with some thing or some one that we don't see or hear perceive. What do you call that entity? But did you call that sole consciousness spirit, or God doesn't matter, but the constant connected ness will prevent you from feeling lonely, because it always with something or some? So these are the six main components of wisdom suggest a question about spirituality as your defining it a constant connection too- I believe you said something like you said that you can't see. I'm just wondering you know I wouldn't personally, I don't believe in anything I can't prove, but I do endeavour.

To engender, in myself a connection to the well being of all beings right. That sounds a little grandiose, but it's a venerable buddhist notion. would that counter spirituality? Because I mean I can see that there are other beings around me, so it's not spiritual its traditional sense of sort of believing in something extra denotes supernatural, that's a great, but I think that does counter spirituality, I get the definition of spirituality. Very there are different ways of looking at it from the basic concept is being connected with something larger than ourselves. I think I'm, whether that means well being of the community as a whole, does create too. So I don't see any problem in thinking about that. It also example of spirituality projector clarification. I also really it's fascinated to hear about these six component,

of wisdom as you and your colleagues understand it. How do we humans naturally develop wisdom, as we age give a sense of why this process kicks in further said to be such a personality, trade and most personality trade at a bar? Fifty percent inherited fitness for fifty percent genetically detriment, It also means that fifty percent of world trade is determined by environment and behaviour. When I said fifty percent it is that roughly maybe anywhere from thirty three percent to sixty percent, whatever did, but this question that part of TAT East genetically determining who sees families in which most people tend to be more

nor more optimistic resilience, helpful and so on and other families and we said, is not the case file. So you see differences within a family. You see some people who tend to be more self reflected more compassionate them. So you can see both environment and genes said both nature and merger that affected and out all wisdom increases with Jeanne. It does not want to one ship. There are some older. But what really unwise there are some younger people but really ways

So it is not a cure home that wisdom will. Increase with Asian experienced definitely comes with agent, but the question is: what do we do it experience right? The same experience can affect different people differently. For example, we know PTSD, post traumatic, stress disorder which occurs upper some trauma. Indeed, your trauma some disasters like tsunami, but there are people who ensure a piteous They have post traumatic growth, that liquid, better learn something and he stood up a whining that taxi driver hot butter and try to prevent those kinds of trauma. So. Experience is important, but again what you do with experience anticipated wisdom comes into play. Wiser people will use experience too.

further enhance their wisdom without other people were so. You said earlier that the believers data to suggest that, generally speaking, on average, we get happier as we age, but that may not necessarily mean that were getting wiser. We might get happier fer a bunch of reasons some. Maybe it's because we're getting wiser or maybe did something else, that's a very good point, but no one could all six on studies have shown and industries across a culture That older people do better is certain ability areas. Many studies have shown that older people have greater emotional regulation. They are more self reflection that more emphatic and compassionate there more self afflicted. We are just completing longitudinal study of wisdom, and we see it ass tat

some ability areas do improve with aging I can get talking as a group not mislead an individual, but by and large these things seem to get better and one of the characteristics of wisdom is actually is associated with greater well being created, happiness and greater contribution to others will be at that's what makes it wisdom really unique trade, because this is a bridle. Almost any other trade haven't, even if you look at it

in like resilience and optimism didn't nicely make you happy, let alone mistily helping other people, but this time, but definition is associated with well being happiness and greater contribution to others will be. It seems like one of your primary thesis statements would be that wisdom is not just religious or spiritual. It is actually biological that is exactly right. So when I started studying wisdom, how do you start strutting wisdom? It did the forcing you had produced, define it right.

How do you define it? So you start with relatively few other research that the forcing I do when I start we sit at a new anti dear to the data to render the location and wisdom strap. I should have started in antiquity the religions, so our very first paper on wisdom was actually a sturdy of wisdom in the keeper. It was a qualitative and quantitative. You mix major study was a medical untroubled. I just had a concerted, so we went to the key thought, his english translation and try to find out in what context awarded wisdom used, and we came up with several palmprints right. So he said: ok, faster definition of wisdom according to git up, which is written thousands of years ago in an entirely different part of the world. But what about the modern western definition? So we looked at modern literature

not only the data by the way started in the nineteen seventies, that's very critical research undisturbed started and it had been growing centre some of the modern western definitions and a common elements- and I can tell you was a message that the definition in the scripture and the modern western Commission were nearly identical. This compromise that I described, empathy, compassion, altruism, self reflection, emotional regulation, decisiveness, spirituality,. have you seen problems in boy? There were some differences, for example the Gaeta. It argues his materialism, whereas modern, Mr Definitions, don't mislead divorce from mom materialism,

But those are minor differences computer, the major difference that was really a surprise, but also fascinating talk that the concept of wisdom has an hour change from time immemorial. The present, what does it mean. To me it man, TAT, it must be biologically based, but ultimately, biologically visit will change with time. Hurried culture I get Obviously there are differences in culture and time, but basic concept has not changed, so it is based in the brain, obviously like waiting the brain, Our second paper on wisdom was actually diaper. Neurobiology of wisdom. Because you wanted to find out varying the brain. The wisdom was located. So I did a Google search wisdom neurobiology, how many target,

Did I find zero? Because so the neurobiology spoon use the word wisdom. So I had to look at the company the wisdom, and then why did you come back? apple neurobiology embody compassion, emotional regulation or their opposite like neurobiology of anti social personality, so they looked at these different Opponents ended neurobiology and only two, areas of the brain shore. In all of them, one is pre frontal, cortex recent new as part of the brain in evolution and, secondly, straight amused order as part of the brain, Lucian forth, it was fascinating that the orders and the news parts of the brain are in hard in wisdom and remember, brain is, tat. So many different area is so many different functions. Why

these two regions only shop in all of this complex right, so that was very interesting finding I can I set we read in the paper under about a mist, and this is just the beginning of whole regions. right, I mean it would be unwise offers to say that this de neurobiology Vista. You don't know that I'm indices signs that developing and figures from now. Our theory would be different, but still the basic concepts, stressing that wisdom is largely a biologically misconstrued could be affected by a modern, went and be able to. Can you say more about these two areas of the brain? What what's you're thesis up about? Why wisdom seems to be seems to implicate these two areas

so the prefrontal cortex? As I said, the newest part of the brain tat is what makes us human compared to other primates, and so what is it that makes us human? It is what is called executive functioning. We can control. nobody motions have that's what you know. If you think about what we re those kid, that's what happened! The cares any time to keep them get. Something came from the temper tantrums and we take him not to do that. Don't talk and protect them, you're gonna get anything. That's all I just become beside you'll. Get it later up. So we d team the kid to enable the emotions,

Similarly, the carriers, Sir, has pies and doesn't want to share them with anybody else, and he said TAT Sancho anyhow to share it with your sibling, your neighbours, but the other kid in the class. So we are taking him, but he and compassion for teaching something that goes against. She suffered risk right, haven't. My goal will be to keeps everything for myself because that's alike but separate, but I need to share it with this, because you must be said that a classic these other functions with a preferred or tax for the pre frontal cortex teaches us to control over emotions. Do not be too selfish to share them with others to be self afflicted, backs up diversity of perspectives.

I can't get it. We all like to be with people who, like us, people hold different as a child. Tat grows up the first thing he or she see somebody was very different circus upset. Him doesn't know what to do and say no aid biases that we carry some offers, carry let one life or because of that, but very strong comes with teaching to overcome those biases site. So accepting uncertainty, accepting do

perspective is a functional, prefrontal cortex, and this is not what you seen other than most Lord animals right emotional regulation, but he compassion you'll receive to some extent, but not yet it extend that we once had. So those are the functions with a brief remarks that the newest part of the brain, thou, thereby dimension is the word is part of the brain straight up, especially I'll make data at the centre of emotions All animals high emissions, since not surprising, is it and we have emotions but prefrontal cortex helps us control them. That doesn't mean we should not hide emotions. A wise person does any emotion does exhibit emotion, but do not control fashion,

So it is really balance between the New S and orders, but before the courts- and I make dollar then leads to these various treats them makes a lot of sense, and we see this too in the. As I understand it, we see this too in the research around the impact of meditation on the brain that it can cause salutary beneficial changes and in this sense it is only a make the law and also in the emotional regulations on and the attention regulations on, the prefrontal cortex it s pretty interesting. You don't just thinking about the list of the six traits that you lump under the under the aegis of wisdom. Its extinct me that you have both the ability to incorporate other points, you and decisiveness circus, could you could see easily how.

Having a has their postmodern view, where you're taking other people's positions would lead to paralysis, but is in fact a wise person is not paralyzed by this diversity of opinion that that that's exactly what I think is really the balance that matters and innovative or wisdom is best tongue balance for everything and then, for example, decisiveness and accepting answer m p m that were set up is one of the best examples of that balance and especially the leader, aren't you, It is immensely mean the political leader, pretty one leader for family leader of business. One has to look after their interests. and somewhere you have accepted diversity perspectives, but you have to be decisive. If we

sitting on the fence on the time you had a very ineffective, inefficient leader but balanced it do not place other things. Also, for example, when I talk about compassion and in fact it is not just compassion towards other people, you also have to be compassionate toward yourself right and they have to be balanced if I'm extremely compassionate toward other people. I keep everything away. all right. I had to have some selfishness right so severely. The balance between the two enters a placed almost every single compound of wisdom that we can think about out, for example, say self reflection but think about why I'm doing what I'm doing. But if I am constantly preoccupied with my own tax, does not help right, there's something what happens in obsessive, compulsive disorder or city that you're constantly preoccupied

but that doesn't help right emotional regulation. Clearly to control over emotion, but that doesn't mean be, should be you most unless, of course not when something happens, we should be happy something sad happens. We should be said that only we can import ties with other right, but we don't want to go to set an extreme that it affects a what functioning as a leather functioning. So the point here is that, again that these need to be balanced and that that's what wisdom is it so interesting that you identify balance as a key part of wisdom is interesting to me, because I tend to look at the world increasingly through the lens of Buddhism, a tradition that was developed in in your homeland and the one of the principal pronouncements of the Buddha

is that we need to find the middle way, and it is all about balance and, in the end, the development of wisdom. That's exactly right! Many of these concepts and innovative saw related to put this on that. It is not surprising coming from India, because their ticket is the philosophy that there is some, but there is another very similar and up. I really find it inspiring petri dish of meditation. You mention about that. Numerous studies have shown that meditation improves knocked his function, but you must structure of the brain. Studies have shown that people after meditation for a number of times, the pipe matter. Integrity in the brain improves, someday Palu of certain parts of the brain increases. Even some biomarkers up information immune function, so life increase.

So it is not just gonna, they said it is not just a feeling of science is real science, Of course, I am, and things like mutation have impact on our brain and body, not just in functioning pretty structure at that's really amazing. To think about it. It is. It is part of what allowed me to get over my prejudices against meditation until finally to two adopted as a practice, but you ve, you say you ve caught brought us nicely to. What can we do, especially those of us who are not, in old age to develop the wisdom of old age when we're not in old age.

I would imagine meditation, would make it down your list, but what what else makes it on your list? The first thing to do, though, in terms have you found wanting peace by Mr Feathery? The first thing I want to say that the system can be increasing anybody and everybody all we need is motivation to do that and discipline to do that if we did that offers. Be wiser, but we have to do that. The scientific literature and randomize control trials to improve empathy, compassion, emotional regulation and spirituality. So this is again pretty hot for science, while I'm randomize controlled trials and weather Some of the Mediterranean diet that you describe. They come under the problems of spirituality, and these studies clearly showed that, yes, these things can be improved. We can improve emotional degradation in, but you compare and spirituality

some people not inevitably wanting their data collected on a broad scale for measuring wisdom, and it makes us on the six components that send evil wisdom scale and wanting I suggest to people the posting is at that does not because it is perfect or anything like that, but it will help you understand. What are your strength? Have your limitations have is in office is perfect, so we may have total similar scorn under wisdom scale, but we may be for it in the complex. For example, my wife is much more compassionate than I am, and that's usually true for women, but I didn't be a bit more decisive, then she's, so although of course may be similar total scores, we had difference in that, and so that helps me and ask decide where we want to focus on what about liking it and soon our book. The talk about the strategies for each component of wisdom, so

The first part is actually self reflection, which is understanding of a stranger limitations. Cellarstairs self reflection is something in which I need help. How do I do that? Hopefully increase myself perfection I set aside some time

times have. We certainly say that one day when state Saturday, I'm going to think about what I did for half an hour, but during that hop over, I don't do anything us, except to sit by myself think about what happened in the last three days that either upset me. I'd made me happy if you do that, regularly find a pattern of things that it stresses out that make us happy, so that should be self discipline to have the self reflection regularly. Whatever time teat answer me far. Next everyone's ok then comes empathy and compassion

So what do you do for him, but he confession everyday life if you want to increase it, so there are two competent self compassion and compassion towards others like compassion towards this hardly increase it. One is gratitude deity correctly to Vienna before going to bed right, a couple of things tat make. You feel grateful even to new contract couple of team that happy, because you do something for somebody else, and why do you do it every day, because then it becomes your second nature. And you start getting with the morning say up: what am I going to write tonight's? Let me do something along that way. So that's one gratitude, baby, you're, getting regional self compassion so impatient Nazi important, so think about tat time.

you got stressed out- and you realize that you had made a mistake or do you wanting- is think about what would you do if your friend came to you and to do the same thing, the Frank and are you insane in other countries party. I think I did horribly bent and I'm pulling sulks stressed out, and you told a friend that it's ok this happens you're not only one brought his happen to a number of other people of into the party and to stick about. You know what you could do better next time, so you can use your friend that he should not food to back the just want so sending you should look at yourself, there's no doubt to yourself, so you can get over it, but there's something I sense of common humanity. Everybody makes mistakes, so it isn't.

We'll have to feel guilty the rest of your life, because you do something wrong. That's ok and then mindfulness again becomes very important, yet accept the fact that you felt distress and does not. but then how do you more than you have more than in the back? Then we want to get so there's an example of that improving self reflection in, but he compassion and dumb circle much more my conversation with delete just stay right after this, I have a million questions. I wanna go. Go back to self reflection, which I'm a really intrigues by you talked about taking a half hour three times a week to sit by herself and to think about what happened in your life recently and how to respond to it, and I wonder, can in your view,

can this be done effectively with somebody else? In other words, I find them some. My most for me, some of the most satisfying self reflection I do is talking to my wife, talking to a shrink target, a close friend. Does that count in you, view. Absolutely does not take you for mentioning that. That's actually are an important point. That comes not only be sulphur fiction, but also with corrected your daddy. Sending some people find it hard to write something and it is easier for them to share their talks with somebody sap solely amethysts as good as doing it with yourself, so definitely about what you need to choose a poison, you home, your trust and respect, and he told you feel really comfortable in sharing your talk. So this is a person like a set with your wife.

There is almost like talking to yourself in the sands you're trying to make something up: you're not worried about your image, for the other person would think about that, and so and you are tat comfortably somebody. Absolutely it's fine to do that. You don't have to do it to yourself. What do you recommend in terms of developing emotional regulation, because I know that's another of the six com of wisdom, so emotional regulation, one example I commonly gave because it is common in california- is roared rage. I I'm going. work, I'm a little late and rushing, and somebody cuts in front of me, I'm so mad that I start honking crossing the tray suffer and Can I help me? The risk is that I may get the car and then they'll be investigation on all of those things. Why do it? So? How do I control might read

time from different ways of pudding that one way rationalization. but why, that person put in front of me not because it was a jerk fat because maybe there's a child in the back seat of the car and suddenly the child had a seizure. What would I have done if I were in their situation? I would have put in front of us because my job was to take the child to the emergency room as soon as possible. But if that is true or not doesn't matter, but you sort of three major the motivation for that person, so that is one way. Secondly, distraction increase the volume of music on your radio said. Don't think about that. I'm tired is think about the best things this happen tat. The late, and actually I restate my boss with little really did not make me. So what does it matter? So

These are the reasons for the vertebrate and for other things again. We can do similarly that, if we Can we imagine other people's money. mission, because often the motions get out of hand because of our thinking as somebody else actually had a some bad motivation, that's what makes us angry hover and if we can control that by thinking, It actually know the person, maybe ITALY meaning to the wall, but he or she did it for a different reason that consistent passivity, so these would be the ways of controlling emotions. What you're talking about gets me thinking about what I've, what I believe is called the fundamental attribution error or just attribution error, which is of a bias wired into humans, which is now try to state this accurately in place. For me, where I run affair

the truth, but did this bias that we have, which is that, if we like somebody, if their and our tribe, we attribute their motives like if they do something horrible, where were more likely to say. Well, there must be extenuating circumstances and, if, if, Somebody we don't like was not our a tribe. Does something good were more likely to? say well, they must be trying to you, no virtue signal, or they must have an agenda. This seems like a bias that, if we could work on, would help us with emotional regulation that that does exactly right. I think that that something, because you think I'm also the division airs and polarization that often comes what attribution of what is to the other side that we think that they are doing it intentionally, the heart of our perspective or our friend Ceta. If he came back and said,

That nor that may not be the case, we don't have to agree with the Russian out, but there may be some of the rationale that dating right, but the ball is not the hardest. Diktat itself will bring down thumb emotional extremes considerably. Another skill that you recommend we develop on route to wisdom, openness to new experiences. Can you say a few words about how we can become more open to new experiences openness Tony experienced, as is also related to what a king or interacting with people who are different from us, because the new experience about where different players we ever been. We meet with people can ever make do something that is different, because that way, a challenging ourselves and by turning also will be learning something new, and

challenging oneself and learning something new is an integral part? Far what he's got neuro plasticity of the brain tat brain can continue to dollar in later life. If- and this is very important if, if we had acted physically, regularly and socially and the way to stay active is not just by doing some choice, but let me something new trying to ensuring out into something I can't we're pagoda carefully, ample nor musical scale a safe? I started learning some music and then it will be a failure, but that one work, but I'm good at any Socio economic research media visa from one to another. So that's why I said that is how I am opening myself to new experiences where I have the right balance again tat what I noticed, something that go wrong will not what something good work and then one, although I will benefit from that

Do you feel yourself getting wiser? Do you follow your own advice? Actually, I must say yes, partly because I have become conscious of those things which I was not an interesting recent. Our book, this wise it came it came out on the election day member see last year. But since then I ve been talking about this, because another thing I find that I am becoming

more self conscious and sums opening more dirty that if I'm freaking something I need to practise it myself- and I say if I'm not taxing, thus are very hopeful. So I think that it has had impact on me and I have become a lesson: Weiss less unwise. I say I have a feeling you're you're, not giving yourself enough credit lightly phrase it another way that want full force you to brag. Do you find yourself getting happier with age? Absolutely absolutely I mean I think there is no question about that and I think we have. We published a study of some fifteen hundred people in the community romish twenty one. Two hundred and we found TAT had expected. The physical have declined to date. The mental health and happiness could be taken

the opposite direction. So yet on the twenties and Turkey, the fountain of you'd that the fountain of depression, anxiety and stress, the Good NEWS is that as we get older, things are getting better innocent distressed, isn't border actually stress if anything increases in order. It right, but renal, hope a hundred stress better and we become happier. So there is no question about that as I could. I love the title of your forecasts. Ten percent happy, but that's what we should be aiming for, not under person happier that's not possible for ten percent happier at a time. We became an, and this is also important as a biological basis, why we would become happier in order each in order that amygdala asset is a centre of emotion, right. Brainy. Making studies show that I miss Taylor in an older person becomes less,

response to distress, form or negative stimuli company young person, a younger? both positive and negative stimuli? Their stimulate, familiar activate amateur In order for some the both of you c mon, I run activity, but not the negative ones, and it is always like young minds are like velcro, negative emotion or mines are like a flop that beyond Honeycutt experiences but You get older business, ok you that happened, but TAT had happened in the past and I got over it, and I want you to remember it: tough one from mouth you get away with this one young person. It did become so stressful that they can never forgive them

the candidate for you others far or do they have. I am exaggerating a bed in the said: does it generalizations or doesn't apply to every single person, broadband I'd hate to think this is true. It reminds me of that great cold from I think its mark TWAIN who said youth is wasted on the young people. That is, that is so true, youth useless. on the young, they can do so much war and United. Like that book, we said that I was amazed how smart my host was smarter, my parents, because from when I was eighteen to when I was twenty two, that's another mark TWAIN Chestnut. I know in the book- and I love to learn more about this or get you to say more about this. One of the men of the ideas you're trying to know just torrent is scale.

up from individual wisdom to societal wisdom, how do you reckon that will happen? Do you recognize it? Have it at all? I do think that day such a thing, ass, societal wisdom and it depends on what we right it ice in the media or days what was provided, eyes was military, might the great was great because heap confer or large swathes of the group of the sun. They were set on british empire so that become important. Then this was at its height. They think that this fact true, actually this has military. Might you know because it is back? Why do you in weight and their country economics becomes became, embody sodden gross national product gross domestic product? They became the signs up strong society in recent decades. That is shifting now people are talking about happiness index

for the society right. I'm gonna happen escapes that use people, usefulness, defining society. And U S somewhere in the middle? We had the most affluent society but we are only the middle of the happiness index. I think the future. should be wisdom index where we apply similar principles. Self affliction, empathy, compassion, emotional regulation, excepting diversity, respect what we apply them not been, do shows but decided. How do we behave with other parts of the globe. Do we help them, because if we help them, they will help us. So I do think there is such a thing so cycle Vista and what worries me is in the last twenty years. I think this was atmosphere has gone down almost every we're ever say, and then actually statistics showing,

Loneliness has doubled in prevalence sue sites. The number of you said in the: u: S had ink he's thirty three percent from nineteen ninety nine to twenty seventeen peanut, in nineteen were developed last year, what do the CDC data history will be wide use, had increased six force their way, something like eight thousand deaths in men can maintain and further fifty thousand so before it came in our society. Actually, going through video of period and gallop survey that are done every year. They should increase out of stress anxiety depression. So I really don't think we are moving in a good climate today, prom behaviour perspective. You need to change it and.

So I said that in some ways we have these loneliness social isolation pandemic that has been going on for two tickets, and probably the vaccine, for that is wisdom were if we all became more emphatic compassionate kidding about each other, more self inflicted more emotionally regulated. We will be happier not just a question of longevity is really a question of happiness. Happiness is ultimately what matters most smack harangue relief it doesn't even matter how many illnesses we have our studies, boarding, gender

pollution as it has been people with Schizophrenia cancer AIDS show that happiness does not call me with your physical health or disability. It coordinates with your mental will be and so mental event beacon happiness. I really these should be the goal of everything we do. How much optimism do you have that we can prompt some sort of serious society levelled move toward the inoculation of wisdom? I take that that I like to be optimistic and retired, looks pretty busy mistake, but at the same time I do think that societies can change.

haven't. We had changing like smoking, for example in the report, because the boy looked impossible there. Smoking will go down any yet. It has gone down considerably like similar attitudes towards women attitude toward regulated minority the beginning to change. We are not there, but at least we are thinking about them. Likewise, the things need to start at kindergartner level in our education system. I truly I blame our education system at all levels, starting from kindergarten tool, graduates, for medical school engineering School, the only thing we teach and weary bar at heart skills the position. The surgeon has to be the best surgeon in the text We don't value things like empathy and compassion, some reflection, emotional regulation. We don't beat them letter underwater and we have to do that.

Because younger people especially, are suffering. As I said, the roofs of suicide had gone up, especially in teenagers and people in the twenty five in the last couple of beakers older people to their being better psychosocial, younger people are the ones who are suffering most and I think we should take. The society needs to take responsibility for that that we need to teach them. How could be happy and they can be happy if reduce them, is different components of wisdom, a meant all that this has been a delight to talk to you. Is there a question that I I have asked that I didn't ask: is there something you wanted to talk about that? I didn't give you an opportunity to talk about one of the most interesting and important finding than our research it during the last few years has been. Loneliness and wisdom going opposite directions. This really really interesting finding, if not because our finding, but because

loneliness is really at the root cause of shoe size popularity, yours, depression, stress and loneliness has increased and partly to society utility. We constantly bear the mood. Families are becoming smaller. There is no social connected Nessler anymore, because everything changes right and there is an oral days and I believe in the same delay here bond and there and so we had a really very good, not just family, but the larger community. That's nor on the case. with globalization and rapid rate in technology, yet lost a social Morse, so they didn't. No social support rely on sought. Loneliness has become so common and supervision.

And it is only now that leads to all of these at the sight of it, we found in seven eight different studies, including thousands of people, from U S, as well as other countries across the lifespan that people whose core high on wisdom, school, lawn, loneliness and wasted versa, and we found terrible biological differences using e g and micro via. So I do believe that there is some kind of a new model studies have shown that loneliness is associated with bad helped, metaphysical help mental, have greater mortality rate. Wisdom is associated greater happiness, betterment for her physical health and so on. But if tissues

Who do you think it is true, because we have never had a finding like that so consistent, including biology. We may have a solution. Yeah, maybe one of them, and they I really like the idea of taking this into the educational system, but I also think that in the heck again I'm gonna steal from the Buddha. You know that The solution that you're suggesting that I have also suggesting to people collapse the pleasure centres of of their brains, in other words, what We're doing all of these things will make you happier we all want to be happier and- and then I'm not just talking about humans. Now every sentience being wants to be happier so a primordial desire, and so it's not like work is not quite like a shot in the arm of a kind of a serum you may or may not trust its is real,

a bunch of common sense, sort of advanced common sense steps, we can take to be happier and our own lives. That's exactly like differently. that I admire your work because TAT S really what is needed for people to understand these concepts of meditation mindfulness. Practicing those things regularly to make us ten percent happier, but that's all we begin if I'm happy actually my most important and are more likely to be held, forgot this right and then I get more help from others, so the social supporting thesis and again modern research in the last thirty a twenty year sector, even less. So so determined and support are really important for health and longevity and sought. wait in minute. Protein like loneliness

I saw it on one hand, social engagement and social support and other these, how even greater impact on how tunnel and giving them smoking physical activity and nutrition amazing committing a distinct, don't got anything, and just one quick, practical point wanna make us, maybe people listening to this same well. Ok, I get it. I should have more social support, but I dont know that many people and I am isolated in where I live, etc, etc, and is a pretty good answer, a pretty good retorted this that I first heard from our now surgeon general, but I interviewed him back before he was certain general August Actually, he was certain general than he wasn't for awhile, and now he is again being the back. It was in this interview, It's a was on the subject of loneliness. His name is of a vague,

Haiti and his response is go volunteer. because volunteering- and I believe this believe I believe this is on your list of things to do that we can all do did to develop our own wisdom. Volunteering put you in touch with other people and put you in touch with the most noble aspects of yourself. That is so true. Absolutely, I think, can scientific basis to prove that there have been the truly randomize control trials, Sean that volunteering, especially in generational activities that older people go and how can it in public elementary schools studies show that not only the mental and physical health improves back the biology improves the marked by Mercosur stress

so exactly right, so this is one of the hearing again especially intergenerational activities, in the sense helping people who are different from you in age, sex, race, ethnicity, education, whatever is just a win win situation for everybody does just that has been a pleasure to talk to you. I really appreciate your taking the time to come on. Thank you to the place. Do you thanks again to digest day the show is made by Samuel jars, Gabrielle Superman, Dj Cashmere, Justine, Davy Maria were tell and Jan Point with audio engineering by ultraviolet audio, as always a hearty salute to my ABC News, comrades, Ryan, Kessler, Josh Co Hand will see, while on Friday, for a bonus.