From ABC. This is the ten percent have your podcast, I'm Dan Harris, hey, hey Party people today, the shell, we're gonna do one of my favorite things, rescue and Revivify a bunch of Gaza. Somewhat incomprehensible, but nonetheless gain changing cliches. We are going to demystify and make practical concepts such as self actual Zation personal growth, authenticity and bringing your whole self to the table. We ve got a guest who, instead of distress in these terms, around can actually explain what they mean in plain English and how to put them to use in your actual life. Scott bury Kaufman is a cognitive scientist and humanistic psychologists he's the founder and director of the centre for the sides of human potential at the University of Melbourne Centre for well being signed

doktor. Kaufman has taught at Columbia University Yale and why you the University of Pennsylvania and elsewhere. He also hosts the number one psychology podcast on earth, which is called the psychology podcast and Perhaps most importantly, he is the author of a new book called try, and send the new science of self actual zation. In this conversation, about the meaning of transcendence and the difference between unhealthy and healthy transcendence, what it means to have peak experiences and plateau experiences. Essentially philosopher, Abraham Maslow and his ideas on self actual zation. Being compassionate understanding, excepting for giving and perhaps even loving, about your foibles and ugliness, bringing your herself to the table as

earlier and the difference between authenticity and pseudo authenticity. All that come up first, though one quick item of business, if you ve been listening to the show for while you ve probably heard me talk about our companion Meditation ACT, which is also called ten percent, happier the opposite place, you go to practise what we talk. Out here on the past and you can do so with meditations that are led by some of our most popular protest. Guests is sort of like science class in college. The pod cast is the lecture and the EP is the lad, so, whether you're interested in treating yourself with a little bit more compassion, having hard conversations without hurting relationships or pausing in taking a breath instead of snapping at your children, You can learn about the skills here and then practice them over there in the app, but just like that to college lab section, motivating yourself actually put in the practice. Time is hard. Those few milliseconds between closing the podcast app and firing up the meditation a far right

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Load the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps and then tap on the pod cast tab at the bottom of your screen. Ok, here we go now Scott, very Kaufman Skype Eric often great to have you on thanks for coming on their head soaks aid to Turkey today, so I understand you were not going through a bit of a existential crisis. While writing this book. Can you play, I feel, like that's a good place to start? What's the story there about two thousand and thirteen slash two thousand and fourteen I went in for a while, I thought would be a pretty the nine procedure and was very high probability that I would I would live like extremely extremely high, but I was like you mean there's a chance that I might die and it was like the first time in my life it like that thought occurred to me the lake we theirs They may die some day as well mean at such an obvious thing to to know that.

You can die someday, we have it in the background of her mind, but it really came to the forefront of my mind and I had the sex, pencil panic and I tried to find every book. I could possibly find on the topic to help me to make peace with this realization. This profound realization I had it did you make peace with it? I I did make peace with it to a large, very large extent, and you know part of that journey. This book and all the amazing thinkers that have run about this topic throughout the ages, but not only neighbour him as well as well, as you know, is still the philosophy to just you know the exceptional philosophers, but there's a whole field called existential psychotherapy and urban young men. His writings really helped me as well we're gonna go deep on this budget for

at the start of this conversation, what was once the punchline look? What what did you learn that allowed you to to, as, as you say, make makes him peace with mortality? I suppose it to a very large degree. The punchline is that their is no punchline that there really is no. There are there that the greatest moments of transcendence in one's life don't come from these peaks.

Differences, but that will mean that they may be no periodically force into thinking. They come only from the peak experiences, but if we train our mind in a certain way, they actually come from what Maso called the plateau experiences, which is the fighting the miraculous in the everyday, and he says it's like lounging in Heaven, not getting so excited about it, and these peak experiences are these things that we rethink were striving for and that when we reach them than we ve reached at the top of the mountain and were done in and then we're always constantly disappointed. Everyone's disappointed by this, and yet we somehow Remember the fact that we get to the point it so there, a bunch of terms, I think, would be useful to define here what terms and names so whose Abraham Maslow, what what our pig experiences and water plateau experiences and what is transcendence

I mean you, you really started this interview. You realize you started this interview like jumping into the deep ban. That's how we do it here. Ok It will bring them as owes a humanistic psychologist from the fifties and sixty is where he had gained the most prominence in the public quarter yet understand the time period. Then you know the hippy is and then the whole human potential movement adjust fit Roy perfectly with masses, ideas of self actual zation, and then youth were so hungry for south actual zation. I'm in freedom of expression, actually Maso did not really appreciate the way the youth interpreted. His ideas of self actually taken. He actually railed against that. A lot in his life is like all the young people think it just means impulsively self expressing yourself and he thought it- it actually involved a lot of hard work and ethic and character. It's funny that you know how the Milo you to the social time period, took his ideas and embraced it, but it didn't

bracing away, he really loved. So he was a humanist psychologist. Humanist psychologists in general are interested in the whole person the whole. What does it mean to be an experience really vital human and what are the factors that predict that you know and scientifically psychologically? I'm experience, Chile and the sacrosanct was what a peak experiences the phrase Maso he pointed, but he he definitely is associated with it heavily. He referred to experiences any experience you have. That gives you this great sense of a wife in us and getting outside of yourself and away where you're not so focused on your trivial concerns in your your ego and all self related concerns, but you will see a broader connected next to all humans and he uses it comes from a lot of things that can come from a sports performance to overcoming something big in mastering. Something, too,

sexual experience to artwork. Aren't you statics to nature to beauty. He found a lot of women reported and we actually found us in our own research. A lot of women reported childbirth is a great source of peak experiences. I'm gone through the troika. This is like a pig experiences cliff knows version. The Porto experience is: is it a term that he adopted from his

Indian colleague you as Ronnie, have you heard of you as Ronnie must know? Haven't now, and you read it he's. He was like a estonian mistake and an yogi. His writings were wonderful on the Porto experience and muscle fallen over them and as well and in a kilometer that term and talked about them as these, because experiences and wife wary of immense appreciation of the moment, but you also see the permanence of it at the same time, you at your age to hold in your mind the state of these two things. At the same time, they give you a greater sense of transcendence for the moment, just a real walking into the moment. You know staring at a loved. And having your heart, you love for them, but also being able to imagine their death you. He has some beautiful descriptions of this seeing the eternity also just seeing the Cotonou of humanity in any situation. It's like dad. You relax talk to people.

And your person or my me so much my friend Bob from high school. You know it is the Middle EAST are to live long enough and you start to see people and you could starting your head of unit in MID. I guess that's, not good is called stereotyping, but you start your head. You you like. Oh that's that kind of person. Oh that's the kind of person you know like all that person has that fino type, You start to see that and then I think you could start to generalise action, a beautiful way, not a stir, typical hateful way whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to say you know, but you start doing a kind of a beautiful transcendent way. Start to realise that we're all, including ourselves, were part of a long lineage of humanity. You know and going going way way way back. You know, I'm a you know I sort of sectarian either way I talk the where I work. You know everything about me. You know as well as part of a long rich heritage that work will continue after me. No there we'll be five hundred years from now, is to humanity, still exists,

something resembling a Scot Barry Kaufmann on a was sullen resembling again here as they might Even now remember us I've been be. Nice I did wonder, be nice if we, if we transcended five hundred years, but even he never even met us. There will exist something very much resembling this moment there were now and if we were alive to look at it we would laugh to each other. Until I see you know like that, person is so scab, her godmother uppers did hair, but there's a kind of beauty

in that a kind of precision of the continuity of the human existence. You're doing great here. With these terms, I think the fourth on the list and bad news for you. As I have said, I have some more of tat the list but transcendence, which is a word that keeps coming up at an AIDS. These are set fascinating concepts. I think it's great to just to get you to describe them so that we can then have a level set for the rest of the conversation. So, let's, let's go transcendence. If Europe for an indefinite important, you got me started, he rubbed up the engine good, I define transcendent, I distinctly healthy, transcendence, an unhealthy transcendence and what a big per my book is actually distinction between the two, because there is a lot of things there that they call it. I'll transcendence these days, and I think they're just do what I what I would call spiritual narcissism. So my book, I define healthy transcendence as an emergent phenomenon resulting from the harmonious integration of one's herself in the service of cultivating the good society,

it's not a level any human ever actually achieves, but it's a Northstar for all of humanity. In a nutshell, healthy transcendence in of harnessing all that you are in the service of realising the best version of yourself, so you can help raise the bar for the whole of humanity, it's not about being outside of the whole or feeling superior to the whole, but being a harmonious part, the whole human existence. So very it's very much horizontal more than vertical show is. Are you tat your each year? not just talking about transcending the ego, the small self? Now I'm not just talking about that now, in fact, Maso proposal it has this beautiful article varieties, transcendence re puts forward like a hundred and fifty meanings of the word transcendence I mean that word is used to two referred to so many things. I think that there is a form of transcendence where you're integrated way

the world. So much just by being who you are that we ve transcending your body in a way? Maybe that's what I'm trying to say: you're, transcending the physical limits, nations of the body in a way you know you're being just by who you are is so synergistic- is aware that Maso you which used adopted from his anthropologist friend anthropologist friend this synergy between soften world, that, just by being who you are and in your purpose in your goals, is making the world a better place is is really is raising the vibration of of the universe but in others just a grey synergy. My friend Doktor Marquise, contrast. Author has an expression. There is no self apart from the world that gets right at the synergy me you we we do exist. Mark would argue you know we on some level. I am Dan Harrison

You are Skype. Eric government, but we don't exist, is in such a solid way as we might imagine, and our existence is contingent upon our serve web of Inter relations with other people and the physical world. The centre at centre is that hunting in the direction that you're talkin about here it is, I still to this day I haven't like crack. The code of conduct was cracked. The cord of what is the self and Einstein Sheep in the brain and what would actually does exist there. I may have some thought about that from a kind of science perspective, you. Maslow really did view self. Actualization is merely a bridge to transcendence. He argued he has beautiful. I say he that's unpublished. She said it seems, like the purpose of self actual nation is to erase itself that's the purpose of it No, but I think along the way there is value in having a strong sense of self

you know. I talk very much in this book about how deep integration is one not where you just have complete self sacrificing another. Some people there like What were maybe you? Maybe you would make this argument is no such thing as the self everything should be in this of others, and I mean there's always. Statements that some people say, and I must have heard you say it, but I do have to hear your thoughts on this. I actually think that there is a middle ground here. You know. I think that there is. This is a great value in owning highest values in owning having a stable sense of self. I talk in the book about the psychological research we have done, on vulnerable narcissism, for instance and other forms of psychotic stores, were people said we feel that they have no identity anymore in up to an unhealthy degree. So I try to figure out what is healthy identity. What is healthy, sulphur son, healthy self? So what I do my book? darting there's no self. I make argument that we can distinguish between a healthy self in an unhealthy south. So what's healthy, what's unhealthy, ok,

So I do have a chapter on self Esteem, trade delineate these boundaries, so a healthy self or a healthy self esteem is, is one where you worthy. You feel nothing better than others, but they are just your worthy human being in this world. You know so may psychological issues can rise from some who feels unworthy. You know so I dont have tried. Take a psychological perspective, listen and argue that a complete lack of self sometimes can be psychopath logical. So how do we distinguish between these these different things and then the second form of a healthy self steam is having a healthy sense of mastery and pride. I often take pride for something that you would Gittin Lee Pudding, the world through your hard work through your dedication to your devotion and that's something I think that you you know should be proud of. You should just say I have no self. I should be proud of what I mean. I've had debates about this. I had a four hour debate with the other Harris SAM Harris about free will, because we

I agree on this and you know. I think that there is like something to be you that has a free will with wanting, and that is something that I think we should we're allowed to take a little bit of credit for now. The problem is people take too much credit for it. Narcissists see, narcissists, take too much credit for it, and people with with psychopathology take too little credit for their distance, but I think there is something there that were allowed to take a healthy credit for it. Just to really fully check the box, can you say more about exactly what an unhealthy self is in contradiction to or contrast to the two aspects of a healthy self which includes self worth and taking a reasonable amount of pride in what you, what you do in your life, your mastery I'd be happy to have studied narcissism in its many men

stations, and there are a bunch of manifestations narcissism, some that some people might even be aware of them, and they may be aware- like and when I put a name to a black. Ah ha, that's that's what that's called so out of people most people, anything arson, they think of the chest dumping. It's called the grandiose narcissist That's the one who's like the growing fast, the bright. When I say narcissist, almost you will think of that kind of narcissist. So the thing is not a lot of cycle, pathological implications of grandiose narcissism, very few grandiose nurses and upon the psychotherapy couch, because they don't meet the criteria For that they're they're they're happy with their lives, even though their creating havoc in their weak. They actually We're high on our life, satisfaction surveys, but if you Serbia around us around them like their lovers in over the historic low life satisfaction, but these

we're high in life ass. I stood there were there, not the ones they end up on the therapist couch, so we ve been working. It is indifferent flavour of narcissism, who are the narcissist that end up on the therapists caps. That's an interesting question right. That's an interesting psychological question. Empirically we find it's the vulnerable narcissist, some research, some psychoanalytic tradition. They call it the covert narcissist. So that's the one that has such a fragile uncertain ego that they don't think they're entitled to special privileges because they think they're better than others. They think they're entitled to special privileges. Purely because of their suffering, so I would call that and unhealthy while the call the grandiose nurses unhealthy, solve as well. I called avoidable our says that an unhealthy self I can keep going further. There's. There's another kind of nurses called the communal. Narcissist, that's been discovered by psychologists and that's the person who that day in only day, will save the world. Now I feel

of the community is any spiritual world. I see a lot of that in the meditation world. That might be a controversial thing to say I wrote an article for scientific American on this on the science of spiritual narcissism, because there's some studies coming out actually trying to quantify this and look at this within the context of and yoga retreats the problem with the communal narcissism they're, a mixed bag, because in a lot of ways they do tend to help others. Its artistic crashing burn because they take over credit and they also have overconfidence, and so they they was think like. Oh, I can solve this and then just struck It happens because of their overconfidence sets another flavour, and I will call that a healthy self, either by the way there's more, but I want to just pause, therefore, second wealthier for I love taken by our sister. If you want to say more about that, go for it will first of all we're all narcissist. These are were taken. new ones you know, which is what I really love doing. The books I gave questionnaires

I want to be one of the first self help books. They gave you a questionnaire to figure out how much of it. Are you because these self help books don't do that? They will Eddie you. They say that their book titles and you're a great It's like no you're, not you know Now, look like you need to be honest. You need to be honest with yourself. If you want to grow, one way to grow is to really take a look at your capacity for narcissism. Your capacity for being a jerk, etc, etc. Absolutely that my own personal process of some of growth is important the automatic clamber above any other stuff like I, I noticed when I was looking when I started studying this this research- I like, oh, my my gosh in my- is I I was such a vulnerable as I always try to you know like so much of my decisions and things that were to prove people wrong That was my main motivation was like someone said. I was stupid

I would approve them wrong. That's not the healthiest sense of self. You know that's the healthiest waiter grow. I mean I really like I grew much much more when I, when I really was honest about either tendencies and things, I think that's the best waiter growth, mouser distinction between sue oh growth and in real growth as well. In the end, I love these distinctions he made on time. Kind of carry on. In that tradition they go through a lot of things. I forgot pseudo authenticity, verses, real, healthy authenticity. Actually, at a certain point, I have a framework where I think nothing is healthier unhealthy by itself. I think I think I can swat anything into this framework. You can have healthy aggression and- unhealthy aggression, you can have healthy, humor unhealthy humor. You can have healthy, altruism, unhealthy, altruism, I went start going down the list,

may I mean I don't know the framework per se, but but, as I computed in real time, I can see why healthy aggression would be. You know, protecting somebody from an armed aggressor. So if you're going to do counter aggression that might be healthy aggression. My my onto what you're talk about her, oh yeah, that's right! The exchequer. I think I, like Martin Luther King, talked about this. Just the difference you know he's. He said aggression in the service of love. You know, was the highest form of aggression is some like that. I mean I misquoting him, but that's the general sentiment and I agree you know I think that it will lot of people in certain movements use aggression in a healthy way, but I I want to say that I'm seeing a lot of vulnerable narcissism in in a lot of modern day, a social justice movement. So I see a lot of unhealthy aggression going on these days as well. She had so curly too, because I study the stuff you know and sometimes on lake. I dont want to see it so clearly like doesn't make you friends text to call out certain things

but I really do from a believed that the greatest sense of outcomes in life for growth, for justice, for fear goals, I'm really need to rest on a firm foundation of reality and a firm foundation of a healthy sense of self, not a not a egoistic or fragiles since itself. Just to get back to your comments about social justice that could to use a loaded Fraser triggering for some. Well, that's a radio. Give topic here, yeah knowing it is, but it's important, and so why tried it? I tried it d regularly to the best of my ability to touch the third rail on the show I am I'm imagining what you're saying is. It is great to try to help other people has. However, if you are setting yourself up as somebody who deserves special privilege- because you are- I don't know uniquely put upon that- is- that can have pernicious effects.

Is that what you're trying to say? Oh absolutely, yeah it did it there's there is a emerging research program that I've been, about, had been actually working on a couple more articles about it called group narcissism and I'm rain article. The rise of group narcissism, and I think that we really need to former from a psychological point from a sociological points, only really her head around this and think this through, because you see a lot of groups that are fighting with each other, more so in the radical extremes of every spectrum, but they're all very much more similar to each other than they like to admit, there's a very common sort of like it like it's a battle and control for power, I took a battle control for wanting to dominate the culture you know and they, but they all want to do it. You know and they're all in each other I mean there's a lot of violence being spread over this and its very detrimental to society, but is an art there. Some groups that are deserve quantifiably

more put upon and doesn't that, give them more of a right. Yeah, moreover, right to feel like they have been genuinely victimized yeah. Absolutely its interest goes like this topic and all the pod kisses, the one the guest. The holster loves, zooming double clicking on. I guess it's very it's very interesting and important right. There is legitimate victimhood hundred percent mean there are individuals and groups who have faced terrible atrocities, no doubt, but I wanted to all think through, and I even want the groups themselves to think through what is that the goals that they have? What are the best methods to to actually be reaching those goals? You know what are the best sort of what you know

it leads to growth, has now what we're all interested and into the at the end of the day is, what's most likely to lead to growth and even transcendence. Dare I say it again? Just put if I pointed to see you you, I'm gonna, try to summarize your point manual will correct me. Hopefully, it may be true that you come from a group that has genuinely been transgressed repeatedly throughout history, but ever was port to you is your own personal growth and the growth of society. Writ large is a mentality of it. Is there that there is? There is a possibility that you can take victim hood too far, as that is that basically we using well yes a you know. I try look from very birds. I view as a psychologist. Sometimes I quite frankly feel I come and anthropologists on Mars to to borrow an expression from Oliver Socks who

a door if you take the most bird's eye view of the situation. What I see a lot of groups fighting over who suffering the most, and I think that that's not gonna be most. That's, not that's, not the method. That's gonna, most likely to empathy for each other, for growth, for societal uplifting for transcendence. If you were to advise a person from a group that has been victimized, what would your advice be about how to move forward personal and societal growth in the healthiest possible way. Have you are that some of us by other Magee? Now I had him key. What did you know this sort of idea either? The subtitle her book is what racism cos everyone and how we can prosper together. You know, I think I think she didn't beautiful, advocacy, work and social justice work in that space and showing that you know racism, how it

its bring the whole society down. You don't knowns benefiting by that kind of hate. Even do you know, people who were aggressors who are causing racism are not benefiting from that. I do think that the West are these kind of zeros some ways of thinking about things and more of your positive ways of thinking about society and increasing and ways of increasing empathy would be ok step forward. The this stance would be instead of focusing on all of the injustices. It would be to focus on how we would all benefit if there was less racism, because even those who are racist are suffering whether they know it or not as a consequence of their. Yes. Yes, that's true to a very large extent, but just focusing on what, transcendence means you know the idea of Alchemy Foster society where we rally around common basic human needs,

that, we realise that we are at the end of the day, what a matter we all want have connections with each other. We all want safety, security and and being able to foster a society where we can start to see that our environment, once those things as well. You know how I mean these are not easy things to solve these problems to solve, but I've been to try to think through what? What would that look like interesting, so you're talking about transcending there you're talkin about transcending your own point, identical your own biases and getting into the heads of the people who not only you may disagree with, but who you may feel you may have good evidence to argue, have hurt you absolutely. I had a wonderful chat joy with it aims at enough you, if you know she is another, I gotta be an adult. A wider issues in my podcast, and she was telling recalling a story of racism in her childhood

a really heartbreaking story where I she went back to her locker and there were things Rayner, Walker that were really racist, and you know I was You recounter her a very similar situation I had when I was in special education as a kid for an auditory disability that I had. I was bullied a lot and we both were like breaking out in tears here. I felt such a strong connection to her and she felt such strong connection to me and I keep returning to that kind of experience that I had and think. How can I bring humanistic psychology to the table here to make more of those kinds of experiences in this world? Much more of my conversation with Scott Barry coffin coming up right after this, I staying informed has never been more important. Yet information is coming at us faster than ever. So how do you make sense of it all start here? Hey, I'm Brad Milkey from ABC News

Every week days we will break down the latest headlines in just twenty minutes: straightforward reporting, dynamic interviews, an analysis from experts. You can trust, always credible, always solid start here from Ebay seems twenty minutes every week, smart speaker or your finger pot cast out. Ok, you brought me back and definitions. I do have a few others. I want to add to the list. You talk briefly about humanistic psychology earlier and the notion of a whole person. I believe, as I would, if I could benefit from hearing that more about what exactly mean by that and then the other definition I want to add. Your notepad is self actual ASEAN, which is a phrase that scum up a lot and I've been a terrible hosting, not getting you to define it.

Thus far, this global fund, one I'm so whole person- is you know how the ruddy to find such a thing. I was gonna call my book transcend, I was gonna call it might. My working title was how to be a whole person, and you know a lot of people really national Beer title Scott like I was even gonna, have a scale the dust attests to scientific without test. It tells you how what percentage, you're you're thirty percent of person, Fuchs cut. You can't do that. You can't do that, so I made You have a whole person scale about the scale, but with all that said what all I mean by it. Is you know to what extent? You know I can and I could pass the buck to another phrase and say I just mean wasn't me too, before human and then you'll be like ok, that's cheating. What is for human.

By the way it turns out Maslow didn't even like the phrase off actualization, more close to the end of his life. He preferred the term for human and I think that the way he thought about for human away, the the psychologists thought of that it could call Rogers the Humanist six talked about being becoming for you as well, though they meant you know what does it mean to be a fully vital integrated person where you dont weave parts of you on the table that you you're really operating at your fault capacity, but you're also able to access the full depths of humanity. You know what it feels like to be sad. You have access to a very broad range of the human race. Periods, but you are operating at full power, so speakers full strands, your full sort of them in a way What is your highest potential and I think that, basically, what meant by self Zation he actually cooperate the term from a neurologist, Kurt Goldstein, he wrote the book the organism where he found cripples. He found his brain damage patient

that the brain had a will to solve actualize that, even with trauma injury to the brain, there are other parts of the brain the desperately want to take over those functions an Massa really loved that and club did that term unused is more broadly. As you know, the Schuman will call Rogers that you, Mr Called, is called at the South actualises tendency. We all have this tendency for growth. We want you at the end of the day, move toward growth, but there are so many things that take us away from an internal things as well as

external constraints, an inverse things. You know we share a lot of needs with each other with our common humanity. The needs for connection like us of the need to matter the need for safety, the need for respect and self esteem from others. You know the need for self accusation is. What is there is the need to express and to put into existence that unique aspect yourself that you don't share with others necessarily was that what is the most unique thing about you? They can have the most stir maximum sort of, if not impact on the world that can bring it to its its grace expression that you'd feel most alive and creative sources like there may be a distinction between self Naturalisation, which is understanding. What makes you special and then you know our operational eyes

Madame materializing it in the world and being a whole person or a whole human which is bringing all the parts of yourself to the table in a way that, like yeah, I do have parts of me that dark are less functional than others. But can I come into our relationship with those parts me so that I'm harmonizing it into a hole?

The absolute Lee and is- and I think that's very much in line with your your own sort of journey- write your own workings teachings and your meditation journey rate has an asthma been a constant journey of integration for you in to self, except in San awareness, of all sorts of anxiety, as you may have had in the past and stuff like that, the out saves arc of it. Thus far has been first of all getting some degree of self awareness which allowed me or your mindfulness YO, just being able to see what was going on in my mind at any given moment so that it doesn't own me. You know I can see oh yeah, I'm getting angry, but I have to be owned by the anger and then the next step, and that was

actually having a warmer relationship to the angry or defensive or jealous parts of me and seeing that that those neurotic programmes, are trying to help me, however, on unskilfully, but don't have to be owned by them. So I realise that for me they serve first step of mindfulness. I thought I was being mindful, but there was a kind of a verse of flick in there when I would notice anger coming up or something like that, and then adding in the extra ingredient of warmth has really been useful. The idea was that your mutations unhelpful to me, I am a fan. It's quite an honour to be beyond your podcast yeah. Reading about your journey has been helpful.

For me and my own journey is well reading about other people's journeys as well. I will I like people who are very brave enough to be very brutally honest about their journey and that's what I find that very helpful to me. So, thank you. Thank you for saying that I appreciate it. What is the core thesis of your book and what advice do you provide in terms of how. We can all vector toward transcendence. What more practically can we do? What would a self actualises society, like more of our society, where we give people the opportunity resources to forestall to South Africa. As you know, so we help them at a basic minimum. Not women live a life of insecurity and and feeling unsafe but we had. We must do more than that in. This is massive made. This clear he's at just helping people with their lack of safety is not moving them in the Torah

Roth necessarily in there and is actually why I have a revised hierarchy of needs, which is a sailboat metaphor. You know, I'm sorry, you have your basic boat. We kept me holes in the boat of this of the of the foundation or ass. Of course, water will get in and you will move anywhere, but just having a secure boat doesnt assure that you're gonna move anywhere. Unless you open up that sail and be open to moving in your most thy direction, Knowing that the ways can come crashing down and ass at any time, knowing that they also knowing that we're all the same see together. Even there were here in our own, both going in our own direction. You know having that awareness, that role in the sea together, self. Actually, society would provide both safety needs as well as growth needs an offer. I am an advocate of things like gifted education, I'm I'm! I think we need a balance. Equity and excellence of our society has not really done a good job of balancing the two

You know we need to do a good job of promoting and offering encouragement discovering people's talons describing people's unique potentiality is in giving them an outlet for them. I focused a lot of my career on what what would a human centred schools look like acre? What would solve actually schools would, like our education system is, is doing everything possible, cantered, not self actualized. And it does not providing the safety needs or the growth needs is not doing it's a great model of failing students in every direction imaginable. Also, its one were self actualises site is one where virtue pays as Maso put it. We reward a lot of things monetarily in our society. There are things that I think we should be rewarding and we dont reward a lot of things that we should be rewarding, such as character and virtue and people who, whose b,

just by who they are is uplifting. The world really get their more a piece of the of the conversation and into positions of power. I thought thought about power, and I thought a lot about this research program. I've initiated with my colleagues on the dark versus the light Triad, which is a whole other research program for the past fifteen years, psychologists have studied the dark Triad, which are things like narcissism, psychopathy and macular alienism, and my colleagues and I have been trying to balance out that psychological literature by creating the White Triad test and trying to look at the way that plays out in politics and positions of power. I'm can actually go on my website. Scarborough coffin comment for free take my star wars, test hotel, where you are in force in or in the dark side of the force of the latter are you more Yoda or Darth Vader, we've scientifically validated that test, so you can take that Obscure, see where you are on that damn, but

but I really. I really do think that we need to promote more in positions of power. People have. These lay try characteristics that my colleagues and I have identified things like humanism, seeing the dignity and worth of each individual faith in you marry people who basically, however, have a deep, a body faith and to protect the goodness of humans and caught. We call communism, which is the opposite of are acute thing which the opposite of Macchiavelli Nazism, witches counts. Second imperative do remember from internal philosophy, class concept and unparalleled categorical imperative treat people as ends in themselves, not means to an end So I do think that would be better place if a virtue paid more fascinating description of of how society could be merged in the direction of self actual zation transcendence all humanity. What about

Individuals? What? What do you recommend in your book or elsewhere? For those of us to listen to you, talk about these gross potentials and might want to march in that direction? What do we do about it? But I'm not sure what kind of follow up book right now just activities to get you and what what what matter called the be realm of human existence? Basically, I'm going to reframe a question. Scott, how can people live in the realm of human existence? More great question: does her I'd hate her at a time of those years, my personality, but I love it- colleagues, I looked out I'd like to have fun and be serious at the same time. So I think the bee realm is Maso Colored, like the being realm of human existence. He d distinction from that,

fish and see realm of human existence. You no more motivated by deficiency all the time we have a certain lens upon which we see the world everything we want. The world conform to our deprivation, so for chronically hungry. Everyone works like a potential hamburger tasks or em broccoli. If your vision, you know like, if you're chronically lacking friends, everyone works like a potential friend, you know chronically lacking in respect. We demand respect you know you, you see there, that's the villains, you know a superhero movies, you see the villains who, when they ten years old or whatever they had an idea, assigns festival. They got shut down the big sunday I'll take over the world will come down here, that's quite extreme deprivation, sort of way of gulf of growing from that when you can be in in the growth realm. Being realm of human existence, it's like it mass like replacing a cloudy lens with a very clear lines. You see,

the world, and you see people for whom they are. You see their imperfections, do see their humanity and you're. Not true. To change. The word conform to your deprivations, but you are trying to grow as a human when you're trying to see, and got more beauty. More meaningful ness did the bee values of life. I was able to find, and I put into the book Maslovs, he call them be exercises. He started. Clothing B b. Love be what is love being of others look like, but he called them be exercises all sorts of things like say but things keep your eye on the ends. Not only on the means fight, familiarization seek fresh experiences embrace your past. In bracer guilt, rather than running from it, be compassionate with yourself, be understanding accepting forgiving and pray it even loving about your foibles as expressions of human nature enjoy and smile at yourself.

Ask yourself: how would the situation look to a child to the innocent to a very open? and whose, beyond personal ambition and competition- and there there's a bunch of Ireland with one it's probably my favorite. If you find yourself becoming egoistical, arrogant, conceded or puffed up think of mortality or think of other arrogant and conceited people and see how they look. Do you want to look like that? Do you wanna take yourself that seriously to be that on humorous, a kind of brings us back to the beginning of the conversation in your example crowded around mortality, how view systematized all the things you learned during writing in his book and your life now in ways that have made you happier there is definitely a more ease nests of being. Then I used to have I'm still man, I'm still on the journey. I mean I I again too,

like I'm an wouldn't do not, then you know so, and I'm still definitely very much on this journey. But but I have, I have noticed significant changes that I would like to take. Little credit for? Nor have I told you how it's ok to take a little credit, I will. I would like to take a little credit for some things. I think that I've worked very, very hard to accept their actions, front aspects and myself that they ain't going away. That can be so hard for some people to recognize, recognise some preference to have desires, You know like nothing like too horrible. I don't like the human imagination here to think, but there are things that, like the wouldn't proud of, Like you know, even so my food preferences and all of us, I think, can relate to the just food for its. Can I go away you're always when you see that but you're gonna like the chocolate- and I think, there's a lot of things like that that I started to just see with more humorous light, then a soft condemning white and that's really freed me. It's freed me too

to have greater flexibility to indulge when I want to also free inflexibility to laugh at it and and and walk on, walk on and do something else, and in a loving way. That's been a big change for me, big change for me, warring those protectionist tendencies, and are there This is U use in order to lower the protectionist tendencies, or is it just something you ve just come? you organically and are able to practise in you life without any sort of formal practice. Yet I do think that living life intentionally is important. So I have worked on intentionally integrating things to me. It's it's a funny, little game, it's a fun puzzle. You know I'd taken, but you have panic attacks and I know I have panic. Attacks may give talks and La Mancha, like be afraid of given talks anywhere without a big one. For me, by the way I became

keynote speaker and I was like. I have a choice here. I like just not go with that life, because I know that I could have a panic attack on stage or I could figure out the game. How can I integrate that into the game? Do you know what I'm saying like? Okay, let's see how pack, a second stage. How could I make that part of the game? And I just I've been this journey through all these kinds of things too, to bring my horse to the table like member. I was I was on stage in like Brazil and I'm a big on state Having sat about experience for thought himself. Well, wonder be: thing. If I had a panic attack right now and then and then I thought was like we, why do you think that's got why difficult?

and then there are a number of I'm still giving my talk in this moment. I'm still time about you know, and we need to help the children if everything is ready to help. But then my my head, I'm thinking, oh my god, what have been the ground beneath my feet would fall right now. You know what, if I just and ended, I strongly started to feel like the ground. Formally, They feed and, unlike while you're, really talking your interest and then I had this thought myself, because actually I actually I paused I paused for my speaking and I thought myself. I could run off the stage right now. What are my options? You know I could run the stage just a collect myself, calm down act, but I could come back and like make a joke, be like I look around, I just had a packet it, and I bet that I could go go go through. This actually did believe that I could. But then I also, myself. You know why I just talk myself so easily into having politic Scott. You are one That means that you could just as easily talk yourself out of it. So then I talked myself out of

and I continued and actually went through the rest. The thing- and I was fine, I guess I'm saying here, I don't really know exactly the moral of the story, but I am giving example of how I've learned to just like live life like just embrace it like you're Talkin, about not an end state but a result of swords on a journey. You are- a levelling up on on growth path, but I'll be A few minutes ago, you listed these practices that Muslim recommended, I'm just curious, are their practices you do that either recommended by hammers or that you would recommend or that you found elsewhere that have helped you get to this or is it really just that you ve had some insights and as a concept in Syria, but a laugh at your desire for you know was leave Orioles two in the morning. Instead of just acting on it, I mean a lot of reading like a research and reading we reading about what we

Human potential, and I am also saying this because I it's like the authorities, the obvious thing to say, and I and it's the elephant in the room they were trying to avoid, causing, concentrate but meditation. Article four scientific American called a sceptical scientists mindfulness churning out something like that us roughly bill. I used to be very sceptical, and I took a eight weak envious our course I'll taken envious our course twice and find that that wonders for me and then most recently have really been getting into walk Kelly's flavour of mine from Sir knows heard of him non do not dual mindfulness, I'm sorry Ferdinand your mind, I'm have you heard of any law Kelly's teachings, or I knew I know the name, but we don't know each other, and he was on my pike S recently in a blue my mind, because

There there's something I really like about non duality and then that whole tradition of mindful that has done even more wonders for me personally then than the envious are brand brand of Can you describe what it is and how it helped you? It's not like a return to the breath. It's a return to one's natural state of being it's tapping into this natural state of love and and pure being that man talked about. You know when Matthew talks about living in the derailment in existence in a lot of ways, he's saying it's getting back in touch with the child within us. It's getting back in touch with this primal primal state of of being, and what else to like about this, this this form of mindfulness, if he called it, he called an effortless attention because it effortless attention, because you're you're not trying to transcend the ego you're. Actually I'm not trying to you're not trend transcend anything you're, not try and get rid of anything you're, not

get anywhere. In fact, if you feel you go, you fully feel it and then- and this is where the science stops for me, and I start getting into a language that is the only kind of language I can use to describe the feeling, because I, still haven't, found us certain scientific terms. That help me note at the experience she feels like this is where that stops. The science stops in terms of the language, but I start to feel this wife, energy. That is the cautious I can call to God I've written about this I've written. I rode article called. What does God feel like, because it seems to me like it just cross all differ traditions. There still is a common experience and that's what I'm Interesting as a scientist and but but also you know, is a human he's trying to forge a common connection across all humans. What what does God feeling

in there's, gotta be something in common and there is a certain life force that I, when I type in June, I feel this whiteness of being that is so soft accepting. But when I type into it- and what's in it for me, It is absurd. Just as well there's there's turn Scarborough coffin flavour to it. You know where I realize you know that my contract chickens are just absurd. Is this other persons contradictions are marking to condemn this other persons, contradictions, because I feel such a great affinity to them? I feel such love for them. So is this what you are driving at low these many minutes right back at the beginning of our conversation, when you said I asked you what's the punchline- and you said, while there is no punch line, is really about it's really about these plateau experiences the year, I believe, used the term lounging in Heaven, but he said aloud city. It's like lounging have been knocking so excited about it.

He's saying that cause like he used to say that peak experiences were like entering Heaven, you know, so he was contracting at the way he used to talk. He he's making fun of even himself matter like yet That's what I programme as well as well. I used to like he's d like we start about protection They start a kind of roles eyes at the house. Descriptions of the peak experiences like the be all and end all of life and the only way that he faced it is with his own mortality. He had a heart attack about eighteen months before he died. The doktor said we need to rebuild heated rebuild his heart. He could have another her take any at any point, and he said at that point. You start living what he referred to as the post mortem life. He said. I wish

One could deliver postwar life out, everyone could die and then come back and be given a certain amount of months to live so that they could experience this. He said it gave him such as the deeps abiding sense of the miraculous in the everyday that he had taken for granted his whole life, and he really believe this is what transcendence is all about, and so the miraculous in every day, which is it just a nice waves talking about the plateau, experience water, the quartet in plateaus that you experience I'm curious. I get I get cited by like that. This conversation is, is to me a put our experience being able to be in the flow state with another human being the foreseen with nature she. For me, I find the Porto experience mostly high born. I can find some

think exciting new and something I talk about all the time. So why and for these kind of podcast? I no a rough outline of what you say, but I really want to go, and I want to say things never said before. I want to learn something new that everyone before so I can genuinely say like I love this conversation had with you today, but I love it because I dont really ever know. It's gonna come out of my mouth now now and I like that. I just want to go back to just in case you think I'm not listening to you. There were you times or you would say things that I would write it down and and I would let em now I've let dozens and dozens of minutes go by before circle back to it, but I feel like now might be the right time to go back to a very good triggering free

you dropped a while ago, pseudo authenticity. What is that I wrote an article cod authenticity under fire wherever I go into great detail about the signs are that I think that there is a great method. There is something that we can call them true self or the real self people keep throwing that phrase around in the spiritual world like something that exists the same people who say: there's no such thing as a self will then, in the next sentence, say for five thousand hours take my summer and learn how to discover your true self sake. Ok, well I think all the right way to look at it is that you know authenticity, there's a healthy authenticity that an unhealthy authenticity there's a kind of authenticity, It's in the service of growing and forming connections with others, and I distinguish pay all different types types of unhealthy authenticity. I say you know their people who speak their mind.

No matter what the what no matter, what hinders their mind and they ve them subjects. I'm just be authentic and see my book, no being you know, there's something there there there like well, I actualize alma, sensuality than we are sending a signal you're you're on. You have to be a little bit more judicious. Send you know if you want a healthy form of authenticity, it's going to help you grow as a whole person and and form a deeper connection with others. Or maybe you want a little more attention anxiety about that. I do think that authenticity- ten. How you're allowed to allowed to have your about your authenticity. I see it. These are thy com as things right and so again. This is just like me framework for healthy and unhealthy. I think that there is a healthy for all the opportunity, which is what side of yourself you want to be true to, because I don't think that there is a set of true self. I think that part of a route to growth is actually realizing that, because a lot of people will do things, you know

these politicians, you know they do all sorts of things and then they had right there there's their apology on Facebook and aid that it says. I You know that wasn't the real me! You know that was, I don't know who that guy was. You know, but, as my wife can tell my, I can tell you. The real me is loving care. It's okay well hold on that was the real you, but they're all our other really, there are other aspects of you. There are worrying there are other aspects to do their their beautiful for sure. I'm sure they're not denying that, but I do think a big part of route to growth is taking full responsibility for your whole self. You on psychological questionnaires, you actually, if you ask people to take out the questionnaire that I call the authenticity of. I asked you and you ask him what size yourself are. Would you call the real you that you can you cash you do this in psychological studies, ask people to

You give them a whole list of adjectives, and you say: what's the real you people are actually really predictable about this. They put their most moral things as the real them. They say the moral stuff. That's the real me everything else is that's dispersants, for so am I We call for the way you raised me, you. Never blame the mom, your moral stuff. You know CALL Rogers said that his patients were obsessed with coming to him. Question who am I dark? Who am I now look? This is such a common reason why people enter psychotherapy. They reach a crisis point of meaning they reach a crisis. Point of connection where they sit dark. I dont know why anyone help me know who I am, but I think that's the wrong question. I think that if you do. If you spend your whole life trying to who you are you wasted your life? I think that the the question is what potentiality within

do. I wonder, though, my limited time and space and this earth cultivating growing developing, that's a tangible question. You can ask yourself right now and they can fundamental. Transform the way you of your life moving forward to me. That's a good question. I think the who am I question is one that you should just stop worrying about ass, a beautiful place to leave it adjusts. Can I get you before we set you free here to plug your podcast, your book, any other resources that we should know about, go for it, yeah. Thank you. I wrote the book called transcend the new science of self actualization. I have a podcast which Dan has been. Do you remember being guest on my podcast years ago? Of course I do yes, of course it's called the psychology podcast fast and I just started the centre, the for the science of human potential and a real excite about that, and I offer courses and suffered could check that out at human potential that co thanks thanks for giving me the opportunity and just a charity today as well

Thank you for coming on my cat, and I both thank you Toby. What you going to say here, thank Femi Human, alright, Scott! Thank you for it. Thank you. That was really fun. We do have one last order of business before we let you go here and it's a little invitation to participate in this show. We here on the ten percent happier podcast are very busy preparing a series of episodes, that will be posting in the coming weeks about how to navigate one of the most complex and dominant forces in many of our lives work. Many of us spend more time with our colleagues than our family, and yet sometimes we forget to treat these relationships with any level of intention. Eighty that makes the changing nature of work at will, employ in remote work and a gig economy, and you have a recipe for frustration burn out and more so in this year's of podcast episodes. Weren't explore how to

better handle your co workers to boost your resilience in the face of what can sometimes seem like a sisyphean mountain of of work and how to cultivate skills to handle the combination, of these two dynamics? We don't wanna do these shows without your participation, however, show were right now officially, inviting who to send us some questions so that we can learn more about what kinds of challenges your facing so that we can better craft. These episodes doubt you up, and we like to hear your questions via voice memos so that we can play the questions right here on the show for our exports to submit a question. Just follow the five easy steps that are listed in the show, notes and yeah thanks. I you to participate, anticipate show is made by Samuel Samuel Johnson Gabrielle, Dj Cashmere Justine Davy Maria Maria tell Jen Point with audio engineering by

ultraviolet audio and, as always, a shout out to my ABC News, comrades right it s there and just go hand all you on Friday for a bonus meditation. With one Jeff Warren.