This episode officially marks the launch of the Work Life Series, a brand-new, five-part series that’s all about how to live better lives at work. In each episode, we’ll be hosting meditation teachers, thought leaders, and top-of-their-field scientists to explore how to better connect with coworkers, boost our on-the-job resilience, and bring mindfulness to our work. And to help you put into action what you learn here on the show, you can join our free Work Life Challenge: a new meditation challenge specifically designed to help you navigate your life at work, available exclusively in the Ten Percent Happier app. Download the app here or wherever you get your apps to join the Work Life Challenge for free.
To kick things off in the Work Life Series, we’ve got a longtime TPH fan favorite: Adam Grant. Adam is an organizational psychologist at The Wharton School and the #1 New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, including his most recent, Think Again. He is also the host of a hit podcast from TED called WorkLife. In this episode, Adam will talk about languishing, some of his ideas for what to do about it, why and how to rethink flexibility at work, and much more.
Please note: There are brief references to alcohol & substance abuse and multiple references to anxiety and depression in this episode.
Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/adam-grant-392
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This is the ten percent happier back, I'm calm Harris again one
The most widely shared articles in recent memory was a New York Times. Op Ed peace written by my
and Adam Grant
the headline Red there's a name for
ad block, your feeling it's called languishing. So many people said this to me:
It had a nerve in a big way. Adding this
guess so many of us have been feeling a nameless
are we a general sense of being off in large measure due to the pandemic, of course, so tat
we're bringing Adam on to talk about what languishing is, how to spot it and how to fight it with a particular emphasis on her.
to deal with languishing as it pertains to our work life. This is actually the first in a five part series we're doing on work were calling it the work, life series
and it's all about how to work sanely and successfully with minimal sulkiness. Many of us
of course, spend more time with our work colleagues than anybody else in our lives, including spouses, kids, friends and relatives.
In the series of limited
a whole range of hot button issues, including productivity impact.
you're syndrome, our relationship, a technology, how to give feedback, how to handle jerks, how to approach sensitive diversity issues. And of course
Indeed, meditation and mindfulness and compassion into all of this to be clear- and I want to be super clear about this- we are defining work
very broadly here. Maybe you have a typical office job or maybe you stay at home with children
or maybe your retired and doing volunteer work. Every episode in this series is for everyone, and there's more here to help
put into action. What you're gonna learn in these episodes? I'm excited to announce our free work, life challenge over on the ten percent happier app. It's a new meditation challenged civically designed to help you navigate your work life. Here's how
seven day, challenge will work every morning, starting next Monday November, eighth you'll get a short
from me in conversation with one of two incredible meditation teachers DAWN Marie and
you Hepburn. Each video will be followed by a guided meditation from either dawn or Matthew. The meditations are about
minutes long and are specifically designed to help you practice what you ve learned,
in the videos, of course, meditation
It's not going to magically erase all of your work drama, but it might give you the resilience and clarity and focus to make.
More skilful moves as you navigate the messy reality of working with other members of homo sapiens. Your home base for all of this is, of course, the ten percent,
wrap download the app right. Now, wherever you get your apps to join the EU,
life challenge for free and now to kick things off here on the work life Series on the podcast we ve got longtime GPA Fan favorite the aforementioned Adam Grey
Adam for those of you who are unfamiliar is an organizational psychologist at Wharton. Andy
number. One. Europe ties bestselling author of multiple books, including his most recent think again. He also has a hit podcast from TED, which, as it happens, is also called work life
in today's episode. Adams gonna talk about languishing how and why to achieve flow, how to push for flexibility at your work tricks for optimal functioning of remote teams, the latest research on zoom fatigue and something called collective effort.
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to grant a damn. It's good to see you to congratulate units is the last time I saw you at least to a huge, an amazing things. Have happened for you, one is the book was a huge success and to that
recalling languishing, which was so often went supervisor. Also congratulations on both. Thank you. I think
yeah. Well, what do you mean? I think, the absolutely these.
like two unmitigated goods.
Oh no, I I feel like there's a big gap between people reading, something and them actually benefiting from it, or at least a big question mark right,
A lot of people recognise their languishing. Does that necessarily make them better off? Maybe maybe not people
excited about thinking again, are we any less polarized quickly at me? Less its asked your opinions note. So for you, it's not just good enough to have reached a ton of people which will clearly have done. It is ok, that's Graham Watson
impact exactly yeah and sadly, reach is much easier to measure yes, but sounds like you have concern about impact.
I think I have a minimum some scepticism and curiosity about impact. I think books have real impact right. I think
It is pretty clear that the pen is not always mightier than the sword, but the ink does seem to last longer people re read books. They share them in
Its forms can always hand them anymore, but I think articles disappear really quickly ends. It's one thing to have a bunch of people, click on it and maybe read it and talk about. It is another thing for it really shift their their daily behaviour or even
through their psychological state switches. Partially. Why we're here right? I guess I look up. I haven't
what about it as much, because, frankly, I'm so crass that I'm mostly just concerned with veto the reach she'd numbers because
They don't really believe that, do you well yeah being partially facetious banal.
tiredly mean I. I really do look at how the books doing in power the numbers on our episodes. I can see my mind going in that direction yet, but we all do that right. Yes, it is
only measure we have, but if you knew how many people were genuinely happier as a result of listening to the show your day attention to those metric steer- and I think you might even care more about them, I would that's true. I guess my point
that? My view really. Is that it's a little bit like seed planting? You know me
the causality here will be very tough to yes, I
letters and I'm sure you get them to that say something the effective. This thing you did changed my life,
pretty rare, I think what really happened. It's an accumulation of information that starts to change people and a seed has been planted, and maybe, in ten years
as somebody has some sort of crisis in their life, and they remember that book. They read by you or they remember something I said, and it has more salience, that's kind of where I think about it. I actually move that framing of it because I think it puts reach in its place, but in also reminds you that reach is not an important because it means your planet.
We're seeds. I would love to do the experiment that can we randomly assign some people to listen to ten percent happier and then follow them over time. I think there's, there's actually really interesting set of trials to be remembered. That might be a conversation for another day. I'd love to have a conversation with you. We should have it other. We can't be the ones to do the experiment, but about we can find some independent researchers, Sir put us to attest speaking of work life, your podcast, we are doing a series on this show called the work Life Series July. We want to have you on
and there are a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about including languishing, but also an article. You rode fur. The Wall Street Journal recently about flexibility, so you made such a huge wave with this languishing com euro for the New York Times for the two people out there who didn't read it for us all to those two people. You should read because truly excellent. I was very meaningful to me personally, but let's just start with a definition, what do you mean by languishing? So the ridge
What time comes from a sociologist, Corey Keys? Who noticed that we have this spectrum of? Well being that on one end, you have depression and anxiety.
Other you have flourishing, are thriving and we don't talk a lot about what's in the middle and he called it languishing. He defined it as their sense of emptiness
a nation and semi languishing feels like you're looking at life through a foggy windshields, which is what a lot of people were describing as a pandemic fog literally. Do you think
we are a sensible. You re talking about work alot about work. Do you think this sense of languishing is connected to our work lies. I think it's often caused by our work life's and how badly they stuck her. If you look at the data, I've seen a couple national poles over the past few months,
that have included languishing now, and it turns out that more people are languishing at work that even then are burned out so
when you're burned out your emotionally exhausted your drain. To the point that you feel like, I have nothing left to give to my job when you're languishing, you still have some energy, but you just feel kind of law or mare ends. The data from keys and his colleagues are pretty clear that when people
pushing on the jobs they have trouble, concentrating they struggle to stay motivated. They end up cutting back
on work and they just kind of you're stuck ends. I mean how
people work in debt and jobs that that,
some feeling that way even before covered, and then you add encoded in an x. I literally Kay,
leave my chair happened anywhere to go and
just feel like I'm in a world that has
no momentum whatsoever in it, but now
that we are in fits and starts moving back toward. I don't want to use the word normal, as is very problematic, but moving back toward something that is there
Facsimile of pre covered in some areas do think Lange,
thing is being meaningfully addressed or no. I worry that it's not being addressed enough. I think some of that comes from within right. So one of the things that struck me about
fishing. Is we often don't even notice that we're we're doing it? In my case, right last year it probably started the first summer summer, twenty twenty into the pandemic. I found myself
up late playing online scrabble on my phone and binging entire
in some Netflix shows and then wondering wait. I seen this before I very mature and I couldn't explain my behaviour at first, which really annoys me as a psychologist. You studies,
innovation, so as to be able to make sense of my own actions, and I think it didn't hit me because there was no. There was no depressed,
immediately grabbing my attention. There was no burn out, leaving me to say I just can't function, and so I went for a few weeks like this before I realized. Oh, I'm sort of stuck in this zone of
I'm not really feeling productive or motivated or
actually having clear goals are not even finding as much joy in the things that I love to do as I used to be, but
I think, if we don't notice it, we don't act on it right. We don't do anything to change it, and so it's pretty easy to keep muddling through your
retain and continue languishing even as the world around you opens up. I also
if that were not doing enough to rethink the cultures and structures of work that are causing people to languish.
And we can talk about what those are bad. I'm watching so many employers right now, Dan that are, are basically dragging people back to the office and say I we're just gonna, returned a business as usual, forgetting that things are very much still not normal and that taking somebody who struggling and putting them in a broken culture is not gonna heal them. I want to talk about that, but let me just
with languishing, in particular with you. Are you languishing now ladder?
you tell me: do I see MIKE I'm angry? You didn't shave today as a sign of anything balladur once a week, so forget of way that's a pre pandemic. Patterned, that's persisted out of a desire to save time. No, I don't feel like I'm languishing, I
I think it depends on whether you're asking about languishing is
ongoing condition or a temporary emotion right. So I had moments where I feel like I'm languishing in it
act. I think every writer languishes when I hear you're trying to figure out. Ok, how do I write the the intro chapter in our new stare at that blinking cursor on your screen and why? Why is it called the cursor? Is it because of all the writer-
who cursed it knows, are moments of languishing in. We all have them, but I think that's a normal part of the human experience. I don't feel like I'm chronically languishing in
I feel like a much more fired up. Then I was during those days when I was kind of languishing repeatedly, so I think it passed the worst of it
I don't know if this qualifies for me. I noticed the time of day when I feel the languishing the most. Is it around eight or eight thirty at night
it is as if we don't have plans. My wife and I because any time we do something social, I feel the opposite of languishing. I really love seeing other people but to say it,
regular. I wouldn't have anything planned, and I plop down for the thing
that I've been looking forward to all day, which is doing nothing and watching a little bit of tv, and I can't find anything to watch in this giant bursting world of content.
Thing seems good to me and that's when I start to feel oh yeah. It's not that there's nothing
but, like I can't get myself excited, I can't get myself interested something's flat and still here
resonate with you. What are you I mean that sounds very similar to how many people experience, languishing, etc, etc. Think you're breaking my rules, which is I don't turn on the tv.
I urge you know what I wanna watch and away. I don't and end up wasting the same general surfing, that's good, but maybe there's a discovery
There too, I just assume something's gonna hear about it, so I'm looking forward to watching it during the day. My ok, if I finish my work in time when our kids are asleep, then I'll get myself that permission to do that, and then it actually becomes something to be excited about. So wonder if there's a small shift in that routine to break the languishing better.
So what do you do when the kids are asleep in your done with your work, and you don't know of a thing you want to watch? What's your move, then, typically I'll read, I think
sometimes essay. I made myself ten or fifteen minutes for a game like online scrabble, but I have to set about it.
Otherwise. I just keep like one of the things you
mention in your article is that sometimes people are doing this. Like kind of I don't know what the used a great deal.
That's eluding me now this sort of revenge, procrastination or something like that. You staying up late in deliberately doing something quota quote useless
yeah, I don't know who they're taking revenge on, but it's like those items that feeling of agency
yeah I've. It goes the journalists Daphne Cayley, who claim the term revenge bedtime procrastination which I thought was so clever, because I always thought of myself as somebody who doesn't procrastinate, I dive into projects right away. I'm excited to do things. I've even been described as a progressive, eight or because I, like you, lodging way ahead of schedule, ends it. When I heard this term of a sudden, I realize wait a minute. I have been procrastinating on bedtime like I just you know, staying up ass men,
When I have always I to be asleep by ten. What am I doing- and I think in Daphne is writing. It was an attempt to reclaim some freedom that you lost during the day, so you know
have an overly structured worked day? There's somebody micromanaging you or control.
Time, and so you say, while I'm at a squeeze out an extra two hours,
to do whatever I want. Only the irony is
I'm doing really anything that you want to hear your then exhausted the next morning and you probably experienced last joy as a result. I think my version of this was a little different. It was,
I found myself saying up because I wasn't aware of it, but I was looking for some of that sort of progress enjoy that I was missing during the day right.
So I feel like I'm kind of languishing a little bed and then at night, like ok,
Russia, seven letter word and that that breaks the cycle of languishing, but then I'm exhausted the next morning
I think I'll ever again, rights becomes very vicious cycle. So how do we solve diagnosed with languishing and when or if we get there? What do we do about it? I think the best it I've seen on the diagnosis part is like it: it's not a psychiatric condition right. It's it's just an emotional state ends in their keys data. He basically says the reason is harder recognise. Is that it
The presence of mental illness is just the absence of peak mental health, so his indicators are really about asking. What is your overall level of well being? I guess you can also go to the. I always think it a Harvey danger song, I'm not sick, but I'm not well, and I think, that's that's, probably a symbol of light
think for a lot of people having to what do you do is a little bit clear when you recognize it. So I did it had talk over the summer on how to stop languishing in start finding flower
and I felt like a crystallized, something that I had alluded to in the article, but didn't quite put my finger on, which is, I think,
In general, the opposite of languishing is flow. It's in getting into that zone of complete immersion are absorbed in an activity and the reason that we stop languishing when we find flower is, we actually lose sense. We lose track
of our own feelings, our own anxieties, our own distractions, were completely merged, with whatever we're doing whether its it out like that. I remember the first real Harry.
Novel in a week ends and then was genuinely upset to remember that Hogwarts wasn't real. I think this devastating I was so mad. I got completely into the books and ask ok platform. Ninety three quarters, I will, I will be there one day than a joke.
Of reality was the jobs of reality delivered by an owl
I would have liked it better if it happened it was. It was me realizing that there wasn't a fourth book yet and all of a sudden that fictional world had betrayed me and left me behind me. I think it
when you get into one of those zones of flow, I guess it's it's similar to the mindful state that meditation put you in, which is you're, not conscious of of your own thoughts, necessarily you're completely immersed in the moment, and I think that that's the first benefited being in flow is that it forces mindfulness.
Right? It puts you out of all of your anxieties about the future and your ruminations about the past, and it allows
you gotta get totally totally absorbed in the present moment. So I think that that seems to be a first step, but it's not enough right. It's not enough just to be mindful, because what you are paying attention to may well be set for the fact that your languishing right. I think that the second piece is a sense of mastery, which is you need a feeling of progress, and it doesn't have to be a huge triumph, can actually be a small,
I think it's why so many people celebrated baking love have sour to turn the early days of annex. I guess I have accomplished something, and that creates a sense of the kind of forward movement that staves off the languishing feeling and aiming for a lot of people. Stop there like. Ok, I'm mindfully focused on a project and I feel like I'm,
headway in it, but I think the peak moments of flow have another element attached to them, which is they make. You feel like you matter to other people, that you make a difference, and I think
Strangely enough have things I talked about, and it said Zadok was that my answer
the languishing during the dynamic was playing Mario Card, never would have guessed it driving a cartoon car around what Europe does that can make a difference, but it required complete mindfulness. You can't take your eyes off the screen for even a split second. Otherwise, you spin out and lives
it gave me a sense, a master. I love the moments of being able to a green show at members my extended family and say if I get this right, I'm gonna hit them and I feel like I've. I've really achieve some competence in that and it mattered you don't make set of family was half way across the country you we can see each other face to face, but we could play out heightening the Nintendo Switch and it gave my kid something to look forward to it. I think in some ways by
there was expecting twins. I couldn't show up to support her in any way, but we were able to relive one of our favorite childhood memories and play Mario got together. I felt like I had something to contribute in those moments and well,
so strange to me. Dan was that after a couple weeks of play me reg
on my Mario CART games,
feelings of languishing subsided, it's great book. I love that example, because it's not grandiose
does not even particularly like laudable as I didn't go to volunteer to suit their turn. You know where equator you degrading my yogurt.
No are you saying it's not a noble task, I'm up lifting it by praising how down to earth and related bullet is, as opposed to making me feel bad about myself, for something
may or may not ever do yeah you're right, there's no moral superiority in in playing a Nintendo game to escape languishing. I will say: I've gotten some hilarious emails from people saying. Can you give me some recommendations for how to master
are your card. Psychology which supports the point is not
we should all go. We might ask what is my version of Mario card? What is the activity that gives me
mindfulness and mastery and mattering, and how do we make sure that that
my daily calendar, and I think this is the other thing that really change for me during the pandemic was, I think, for the last twenty years. I have treated that kind of play as a reward for finishing my to do ass. I am like I've got a bunch of tasks to accomplish it, an if I get
time then I'll do something fun at night, and I think, when I realized through languishing s, that those moments of joy and play in fun, they actually belong. Am I to do us at their their sources of fuel and they actually prevent languishing which makes them productive, even though they don't sound like they're, very achieving anything. I is such an important point and fee for people who want to hear more about that. There are a couple of people who have been on the show before will put links in the show notes, but Catherine Price has talked about this and also Alex Sudan can pang a word a book of rest.
Talks about this and it just you can't hear and enough weight. Then. Can I ask you a question that? Yes, yes, this might just view my dna or capitalism or some combination of the two year, but I'm kind of allergic to the idea of rest. When I hear rest, I think first of all asleep, which I hate I needed
but I wish I didn't cause it's a colossal waste of hours. In the day I like I wish I could hire somebody to leave and I get the emotional credit for it to ask rabbit I've been seriously. I know people who love sleep, I don't get it. I can't imagine
So may I would be less excited you eight hours a day, but my body requires that rights, I'm stuck with their bare, so think of that, but I also, I also think of kind of lounging around right and my idea of rest is much more active. I guess it's relaxing in some ways, but it's so might involve real energy, like I I rest by reading, which is not
I don't know it's not totally passive or arrest by playing a cognitive, we demanding game or sometimes
and by working out, and I wonder if the framing of these activities as resting as opposed to energizing leads us to think about them too narrowly right even like I would have called Mario CART rest right, it's fine, but it
has the same function for me as city in bed watching tv, maybe even more so because it's more active. Yes, I think that is exactly what Alex Pang is saying, he's talking about active rest and he's calling that the flip side of work. They are not at odds, you need one for the other and he talk about long walks. Yet how he's talking about exercise would working
and oh cognitive. We demanded Hobbes him games, often done with other people very much an overlap with Catherine Price right who's got a book called the power fond. That's coming out. I think it's a really interesting and I want to say antidote necessarily to capital
I'm not like a valid. You add to capitalism, because it Eddie
the day I am so steeped in capital. Isn't I do want to get stuff done right and
love the idea that the rest, the play, help me get stuff done, and also its good for me, yeah same and much more excited about making time for it. If I call it player fine, then, if I call it rests, yes, no, a fair enough, so maybe your quibble with Alex would be branding one rather than the substantive one I'll take the one thing that really help me with languishing is- and I don't know if it hits all three of your AMS mindfulness mastery and mattering it does kind of, but with a little bit of an asterisk. So a few months ago
got a drum set. I've and playing drumstick does ten, so I loved play drums, and I want my six year old Son to what he wanted to learn. So now we live in a house as opposed to an apartment, so everything was coming together. So we ve got a drum said and it is
wonderful, because, even in the middle of the worked day, I'll get up and play for a little baby, so much fun, it's a great energy release. I've got them,
fulness everything's gonna way, although with equivalent the use of the word marvellous in this, he get technical about it. But we won't I've.
The mastery, because I can feel myself getting better at it. It's the mattering, we'll have a little bit of a question, because I have so much fun when playing by myself
I enjoy teaching my son, but it's not nearly as much from watching him. Do it that it is for me to do it so thoughts on that wide. It sounds like it's. It's a lot harder to get into flow. When we're teaching a six year old, the drugs, then when playing drugs. I think it sounds like what you're waiting for is when he gets to the point that he's got enough, that he can.
With you. Yes and then you get collated flow, yes and then that it is really an activity where you matter, because you're you're creating a shared experience and probably some really meaningful child and memories to yes, it's so cute, though, watching in these learning to play like he won't look at the drums, because he just lookin at me the whole time
further for approval, which, as you know, not the right way to play the drums, but it's for pleasing from my parental narcissism. So this means you felt you are also languishing at some point.
The network we differ sure for sure, especially during the time I couldn't have social interaction. I I have, I think, a mix of extra version in intruder, but a really do love seeing people and even last night,
Just literally last night, my wife and I had dinner with a bunch of my former colleague for me
I really love and it would get you to. We were in such a good mood. I got the car afterwards and he's just very invigorating to Ferb for me to be around other people, and when that was taken away, I did suffer and
Mr that's not unusual, but even now I can feel temporary states of languishing in day parts. You know I mean I work.
Friendly hard all day. As you know, writing a book. It can sap you and so by the time eight o clock rules around and we put Alexander to bed in an odd looking
forward to this tv time or whatever, and some part of me is unwilling to commit anything, because I'm just everything seems flat. That can be a tough time of day yeah. You know you just such a couple of things. They figure are worth to you into a little bit. One is. I was really surprised by the evidence on who struggle the most during the pandemic. I know of at least three papers now that have shown that introvert were actually experienced,
more stress and more mental health problems and that extroverts during locked out, we also social media, both right, we're locked downs, announced in introvert, say
I've been preparing my whole life for this. I read your mistake. We made obviously is really confusing introversion, with a preference for solitude right. You know, I think so. Many people were told at some point that extra version is where
get your energy and apparently not we're all energized by social interaction. I'm an introvert and I
then get energy from talking to other people that differences that are.
are easily ever simulated, but because of that
right. I didn't seek out as much social interaction during the pandemic and then I can create a sense of self isolation and loneliness, whereas the summit is a little bit more extroverted, your definite more accurate than I am damn you probably much more quickly than are at a thicket stuff to find ways interact with people. Yes, I was really lucky during the pandemic at that
I was still working for ABC News and every Saturday and Sunday morning I would go in and anchor good morning. America and I was super super the last to have.
Ah my favorite word, but whatever I had incredible col
who I was and am genuinely close friends with and so that men, I have a party Sarian Sunday morning, the problem, as I d get up and three forty five a m to go to this party, and I was attacks that my fifty year old body could no longer abide, but that really prevented what would have been. I think, a quite a deep slide yeah. I can see that when you are talking about languishing as they about the currencies finding did, if you wanna predict who's gonna be depressed her anxious over the next decade. It wasn't actually the people who are most depressed her anxious right now it is the people who are languishing now, and my interpretation of that is that depression and anxiety lead people to seek help, or at least do something to help.
Sounds, whereas that languishing lurks below the surface and then it sort of indifferent to it until it's a little bit too late, and I wondered, as somebody has been very public about yours struggles with anxiety over the years, if you'd experience that, if you think about some of your panic attacks or are some of the biggest challenges emotionally, where they proceeded by bouts of languishing. Or did you even see aversion about play out during the toughest days of it? If I think back to my infamous panic attack in two thousand, for it was preceded by a period of I've, been calling it depression, but you might call it
wishing, which was that I had spent a lot of time in war zones as a eager young corresponded came home, and even though I had a very exciting life as a tv reporter and anchor, it was nothing compared to being shot at
all day and I just was bored. I was in withdrawal from the adrenaline and I think that accelerated to appoint of depression-
accelerated the self medication which accelerated to a panic attack, which now has millions of views on Youtube. We put up exactly at the UN.
that's reiterate their dad, I don't know, maybe that
In fact, you are going for that for effects, but it did turn into quite a positive one. If you're subsequent work is any guide, there's an interesting tension here between and though
and I had a conversation with data economy. In a few months ago, about his critique of the positive psychology, movement and Anti said luck, it's more important to reduce misery than to promote happiness, full stop
and I thought ok yeah. If I could do one or the other I would much. Rather
to figure out how to cure depression or easy anxiety, then to boost people's happiness levels,
On the other hand, this conversation is making me wonder if that orientation saying that that eliminating emotional ills,
more important than creating emotional highs. If that leads us to neglecting
trying to say, are at once: you're you're not experiencing mental illness. We're just can ignore you altogether. I just wonder if its false dichotomy, it might be, I mean, isn't one way to address misery, to boost the positive to teach people. The mind is tradable. You can train positive emotions that can be an antidote to depression and anxiety. I think that's right, I think we're Danny was going with it was who do we focus our professional expertise? I'd? Do we focus on
those who are in the middle of a spectrum or do we focus on people who are really hurting psychologically, and he said we have a responsibility to start with that latter group the same way that you would hope that in the emergency ratify the person with the most severe crisis gets traded first and I think that's right, but I think you're onto something.
And it has certainly we have now what two decades of data suggesting that teaching people the principles of positive psychology can actually help with mental illness? Yes, so I get history, our argument and I think what I would say without much expertise would be so near. This is like basically,
asking advice from somebody who, whose only qualifications I slept at a holiday and last night, but there we go, which is that I think that what the science is showing us is that you can treat people, as you just said, who are in the most acute pain with positive psychology, with contemplative tools from the meditation traditions from the recent traditions that can help them not be so owned by their thoughts and emotions. Train up countervailing forces in the mind
such as gratitude and the capacity to savour joy, compassion, which is so noble and empowering in the face of the kind of powerlessness of depression and loneliness, and that can trickled down to the rest of us who aren't sick, but our well per Harvey Danger and with a deep nineties, cut the U reference to while ago, and I would also argue that many of these people in the
middle, are the future occupants of the extreme and of depression. Anxiety, Danny's, you know quite rightly wanting to focus on and so preventing them from entering. That category seems important to so it's not comfortable for me
argued by proxy within Nobel Laureate, already banned accountable, but a year ago now I agree with your analysis. I was starting to wonder about is prevention in this case not only the best care, but also the most widely relevant care. Just given the sheer numbers of people who see,
be languishing depending on how you measure in scurried, I've seen the estimates in the? U S over the past few months, anywhere between thirty and fifty percent of people feeling like their languishing. That's a lot of people who are potentially on the precipice of some more
serious challenges? So if your languishing right now, you talk about the flow as a possible antidote, in particular at work, which is the source of many of our feelings of languishing. I've always found the notion of getting into a flow state very frustrating, because yet with the one actively I can think of where I can reach flow or something approximating, it is playing the drum,
but writing for me, which it most of my job, I'm never in flow. I'm in concert state of misery and one percent of what I do works and ends up in the book in the rest of it is junk, so I've never felt able to get into a flow state while working. Are you serious, yes, well,
you're, either doing the wrong job? Are you doing it the wrong way that probably,
writing. As some of my best, where how do you write? What do you do? It's miserable I suffer.
While I right, I mean I'm getting better at not suffering on being a little hyperbolic here, just cause, you know showman, but in the course of writing this book,
I have learned a lot of techniques for self soothing that, as my teacher Joseph Goldstein has said, the good stuff doesn't come from the stress. The good stuff govern when you relax, ten feeling creative and open
and I noticed that to be true, but it is very easy for me to fall back into frustration over being unable to crack sentence or being able to express an idea or to understand the structure of the book or to worry about people gonna. Think I'm a incurable douche bag when they read this because it's full of embarrassing staff- and so I can get tangled
are easily beata. So it sounds like one of the reasons you don't get into flow, while you're writing is that you're too self critical during the process? Yes, yes yeah, I
it is one of the recent ever Vonnegut writing about bashers and sweepers went. One group basically said,
being added. As I write the other side
I'm in a draft and I'm not going,
think about any of it, and then olive tree editing as a separate part of the process, and I have always found the latter more helpful for getting into flow. I think, as you are describing it right, the mental state required to be creative.
very different than the work is required to refine and evaluate ideas right. So I want to be is as open and non judgmental as possible on generating content and then supper
Lay a couple weeks later I'll read and write like who wrote this garbage, although other me you'd have to try to figure out what we're salvaging in developing further in that
We have a flower, I think the other had wonder about which speaks to is just clearing out distractions. I was stunned to read that the average person was checking email. Seventy four times a day. They were usually switching Tass every ten minutes and even if you're lucky enough to get into a flare saint in that tiny window, you're not gonna stay in one for very long. If your constantly shifting your attention away from the task- and so I think that compete
cars are designed for a parallel processing. Humans are cereal processors. We can really only do one thing at a time as very useful,
so, whether your writing or not, where whatever your job is data entry, reading x, rays and figuring out, what's wrong with people customer service, drawing up marketing plans managing
people whatever it is. If you are tasks switching too much, you are reducing the odds of getting into this flow state which again can prevail
languishing. Yeah you're also hurting her performance at both tasks. There's this research by Sophie lower. I that I love on what she calls attention residue, where she shows that if you Eve task, ay, unfinished that your performance on task be suffers,
because you have a little bit of a mental attention still dedicated to figuring out, even if it's in your subconscious how you're gonna work out the rest of task, I guess that makes a lot of sense and that feels like I've just interpolating back to so many of my work days and saying gap. That's what was happening yet, but it
There is a little bit of a paradox, which is I've also benefited tremendously from the Hemingway technique of leaving a sentence unfinished so that when you come back to it, it reduces getting into time.
And you can pick up where you left off, unless you completely forget where you're going, in which case you just shut itself in the foot, but there may be a workarounds which is there's some brandy, research by Jessica, Road, Elinor colleagues, which looked at one of the reasons why so many people have such a hard time getting engaged when they start their work day, let alone finding flower anxious even focusing on your first task, is their distracted by whatever else was on their minds and she and her colleagues design these very, very simple interventions that you do yourself. There were two November.
This intervention and you can decide if you like one or both, but there are both effective. The first version was basically making a list of things that you needed to deal with at home.
And committing to come back to them once you are done working so basically detaching from your home worries. The other was the opposite: make a list of your big priorities at work and literally just out loud, giving yourself permission to focus on those.
for your work day and both of those interventions accelerated how quickly people got engaged, which ultimately was good, further ability to find flow and be productive and then come back to their outside concerns, and I thought I was a great example of some hard evidence for a pretty simple and actionable practice. So, instead of having a servant nebulous background static of worry about things, you feel you need to do making the list concretize it externalize. Is it and then makes it more manageable? Exactly
that's what I meant to say, professor. You said earlier that one of the big contributors to languishing- if I heard you correctly, what you were saying was one of the big contributors is the structure of the modern workplace, in particular some mistakes. You alluded to employers making right now, as we kind of her keep jerky pull out of the appendix. So can you hold forth on that? I can try, sir. I think one of the biggest reasons that people languish is they don't have enough freedom,
control over their time. So you look at me. Do you look it during the pandemic, the number of meetings went up. The number of emails went up. The work day stretch out longer so the average person is
starting earlier in finishing later in its two to three extra
where's online and yet
You got a little bit more family time during that period. If you were at home,
we're getting interrupted a lot during that time, and so the net of that is that you're not able to concentrate on those moments of deep work, you're not able to take charge over your day. You can't even really prioritize what's important seo and say you end up with a whole day of a feeling like
a lot and I accomplished essentially nothing. There are a lot of demands of my time, but there is not a lot to show for it. So what do we do about that? Because I can imagine what you might be able to do, but that is a manager
I suspect many. The people as in the show, are managed and don't feel like they have the power to make structural changes within the workplace. So what do we do? Well, it's is always easier to drive change if you have a coalition behind you write. So if you're asking for yourself, it becomes a request that has to be justified. If you can make a case that a whole group of people are gonna benefit from your entire team, then it's something to consider. So I would start by thinking about wise to me.
your freedom or flexibility is in the organisations interests. You can think about making a case for quality. You could highlight how many people are burning out personally, when I would bring to the table in many workplaces
How is the great resignation that literally millions of people according to jobs right now and the people who quit first are usually the most talented because they have the most options,
So we obviously want to do everything in my power to keep all the superstars that we have here around. I'm really worry that people are languishing, that their burned out, that they just feel stress too thin and listen. I know I know that you are skilled at driving changes
and so I would love your guidance
around how we could you know, try to to shift some of these dynamics and there's research vocabulary inquest on this, which is that when you asked for advice, a couple things happen: one
Is you flatter the person right? We all admire the wisdom of people who come to us for advice, then you're a genius you and created,
You need to come to me and secondly, in order to give advice that person then has to walk in your shoes and see
perspective, so they're more likely to want to be your advocate instead of your adversary. So I would figure out what is the collective problem for the team of the organization that's being cause?
by whenever you diagnosed, whether it's the languishing or the restriction and freedom? Why is that bad for your manager and then
ass, for your managers. Recommendations about how to deal with it in the hope is either get some good recommendations. Are you actually have a champion to start working with you toward change? Much more of my conversation with Adam Grant read after this something I think we're all missing. Right now is travel just getting out of the house out of the neighbour
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Strip, a big deal: hey, hey it's Dan Harris from ten percent happier, and you may have noticed that sometimes work can suck. So I would like to invite you to join me in this
Free work, life challenge in the ten percent happier we want,
you navigate, worked stress and find a little bit more happiness in your data day every day, and this week lunch
you'll get a short video for me and a meditation teacher followed by a short meditation download. The ten percent happier act from your.
store and joined the challenge for free.
You wrote recently in article four the Wall Street Journal about flexibility. Can you just regurgitate for us what the primary thesis and was so that the thesis is that when we look at the gray resignation, many people are cutting their jobs supposedly because they don't wanna, be forced back in the office, and I think that
aims the problematic generically. I think what happened. Is people have long been wanting more freedom at work? We have data actually tracing back almost two decades, showing that the preference for flexibility was rising. The people were less willing to southern their souls to their employers there
more interested in and having family time and leisure time outside of work, and they just didn't necessarily think it was possible until covered
that they got a little bit of a taste of what extra freedom looked like.
Now they want more of it. So I think the great resignation is not just about wanting to be able to choose where you work. It's all
oh, a quest for freedom around when you work how much you work, who you have to work with, what you get to work on, and so, instead of just debating or what what's gonna be the place where we work? What we should be talking about is how do we give people more autonomy, more choices around the people? They work with the processes that they use the purpose that they worked word and especially the priorities that they get too said. What do you think this is all going? I'm asking us in part, because I've ever was very interested in this article, that I suspect you probably read from the New York Times calmness far Hod Manu about a concept called anti work there.
apparently a very popular thread on red, it called, I think it's like backslash anti work am there's this growing quest
ginning of of work
and not only of the structures of the modern workplace, but of the fact that we in the west so often measure ourselves by what we do. I hope we re
bad record, Hammond, I'm an organizational psychologist. I study work for a living, but I dont think it should define us and I think it does in America, probably more than any other country on earth right. We ask our children. What do you want to be when you grow up and the only acts?
double answer to that is a career as if all you are is the job that you do when we meet somebody at a cocktail party. When we go to cocktail party, some Ugo apparently go to parties, I dont, but if I did right the first class,
I would ask someone is what do you do? What do you do yet, which is then treating your job as a representation of your identity of your status in the world, and I think that there is
in a bit of a great reckoning on that with a growing number of people in the West, saying why
We worked so much as a society. We don't have to do it. I'm really struck by the anthropologist. James husbands analysis that for most of human history, people worked fifteen hour weeks and that industrialization has not brought us all of the. It certainly brought us a lot of economic growth, but it has it necessarily improved our quality of life and all the ways that we expected a too. I am not suggesting that we reach
and a hunter gatherer life credit, but I do think, did you know that things are a little bit out of balance and that fur for multiple generations we allowed work to dictate our life's work is determines certainly its determined the city we live in its determine how much time we get with our kids at home. It set even just how much rest or player are we allowed to do, and I think it's
Finally, we have this backward right. I think the big cultural question is: how do we design work to fit into our life priorities, as opposed to
wheezing our life priorities around or in the gaps in work, and I don't know that's going, but I think it's a conversation that long overdue yeah I mean you just said you don't know what's going on, I don't think anybody really does
I have some scepticism about immediate, so deeply ingrained in us. This serve capitalistic, individualistic materialistic set of impulses.
yeah I I can see be some people go to a four day work week. We ve been kind of nudging in that direction at ten percent happier.
And I know, there's data to suggest that actually productivity goes up with a four day work week, but are we gonna end up in a world where people no longer defined?
cells by their jobs. I don't know, maybe that's a high bar. You know I think
I think Freud was wrong about almost everything, but one of the things that
might have gotten right was when he wrote that the two greatest joys and in life are to love into work, and I don't think he meant to work in the capitalist sense right. He meant it in the sense of I have a project that matters to me and it allows me to contribute something to others. I think there's nothing wrong with that.
Being part of our identities. I just wanted to two to swallow up our identities and leave nothing left, but I think the forty workweek experiments are really interesting. Employers oughta be a lot more creative and say well. Why don't weeds has two forty workweek against the six hour worked it. There are some jobs in some cultures, Turkey to be much more conducive. If you think about high intentional demand jobs, jobs
require extreme concentration. I don't necessarily want people doing for an hour days if they're in air traffic controller, for example. I think you know a five day. Six. Our work week is probably enemy much safer. I think the opposite might be true for jobs that are, let's say more service oriented. I dont think we ve even scratch the surface of runny enough. Those experiments have a clue. What can a work in it? You know in a given type of job or in a given type of organization.
Let alone industries in country is bad. I think those kinds of experiments that we need to be running. I mean it's, it's hilarious me damn that even Henry Ford. I believe that when people work less, they produce more, he ran experiments in its factories, found that when you cut people's hours back from sixty toward forty that they actually got more productive, who knew right and Henry Ford believe that
you don't have to be that humane harder to envision a better world of work that that actually serves the quality of life, and I think it to me
think how many leaders and managers, despite the rigorous evidence that exists now still have this knee jerk reaction of, but I had to walk six miles in the snow. Barefoot uphill was exactly so. Therefore,
I met a treat, my company like fraternity and I'm in a haze all of you newcomers. Why? Sunday, sorry I've seen that strain of thought, in my own mind to the detriment of the heir to the yes, it's silly to my own detriment to the detriment of people around me. So, yes, I want to talk about team work because I think team work is some of the most meaningful and most difficult part of modern work and you ve written and talk about this a lot in one of the things you say your was regional article as I'm quoting here that
not the frequency of interaction that fuels productivity and creativity? It's the intensity of interaction. So what do you mean by that with this? Is research Dunbar
because our Fredo and Anita Willie, who studied virtual software teams over a three month period and they tracked their interaction patterns and found that the most productive and most creative teams were not in touch every hour, not even every
They would go off and schedule whole morning or maybe even a two or three day window for deep work, and then
it would come together and do these places where they have messages and bits of code flying back and forth, and that the pattern has been called bursting us, which, I think is a great term. I think a personal is the sense it. Your collaboration is literally bursting with energy and ideas, and I thought that the reason that that was, productive and creative is you can build on each other, but the data told a slightly different story, which is when you have these intense interactions with lots of,
indication in a short period of time. That's actually just motivating ready its energizing to know that other people are there in real time, ready to respond to you, as opposed to send somebody out into the either
and I don't know of somebody's gonna- respond now tomorrow or next year, and I think what without research made really clear
we need intermittent collaboration. We need to give people independent,
I am to do their work. We need separate time set aside for us to collaborate ends. I think that the collaboration overload that many people have been experiencing has been to the detriment of what organizations are trying to accomplish its so introduce a. We need collaboration by needs to be in the right dosage and with the right boundaries
That sounds exactly right and it gets me too. I think you're actually gonna, settle and argument in my favor about what we can have that. Can we who you arguing way
Zoom calls I
That meant a lot of trouble in my organization, because I hate zoom calls I like phone calls, which makes me a dinosaur
No, but when I have to stare at a scream I get. I am
listening. I now hide self view, so I can't see myself so not assessed.
my hair line or anything like that, but I'm just I feel watched I feel like I'm in
an optical? And I don't like that feeling I feel stuck at my desk. I can't pace around, which is the way and that I can really start to think, and I have tried to make the case to my colleagues that I will listen to more if I dont need to be on the zoom call. If I can just take a walk and listen and I have lost decisively- I mean like decisive, I just went into full capitulation, but I it's not. I dont think to the good, don't give up and don't give up the data. I think
very clear and consistent that your colleagues need to think again on this one, so I think the first finding that really caught my eye was a paper by Michael crossed at Yale who did five experiments?
on how? Well we re other people's emotions based on what kinds of cues we have access to, and he found
that people were more accurate if they closed their eyes or the lights were turned off, and they could only hear the other person's voice that having facial expressions and body language,
did not add anything to the ability to read emotions and in some cases it actually detracted and
was true whether they were trying to gauge the emotions of friends or strangers, so
going on there. Well, I think the first thing is going on is that tone of voice is a pure signal of emotion, whereas facial expressions, body land
They can be misleading, we often misinterpret them. I think the sex,
this happening. There is what you are touching on, which is when you have extra cues, your more likely to get distracted and when you're just listening to somebody's voice, you can focus just on what they're saying and how its coming across, as opposed to trying to juggle the cognitive load of
what way what it like? What what does that smile mean right now, I did not mean Dan is excited to see me or is he feeling what psychologists call duping delight
he's about to tell me a lie and he's really.
really energize that you have to get away with that, whereas in your voice I can, I can probably here at a little bit more clearly, so I think that sort of exhibit a right is you dont, need to see people's faces to understand what their feeling you might be better off with the cap.
Often that so Exhibit B is that's one of the easiest way to fight the fatigue that were our feeling is to turn off cameras. This is an experiment. They Kristen shock, cleaner colleagues, publish this past summer.
where they shared that if people were randomly assigned to turn their cameras off some weeks, their emotional exhaustion went down, and that was it
actually true for women and newcomers who are the people.
I think unfairly face extra pressure to worry about that their appearance or their image and taking that off their plate, made it easier for them.
To concentrate. They were more engaged in meetings. So if you want to fight zoom fatigue, I'm not saying the camera should always be off
If you're giving a presentation or if you have a large group, there is a time and a place where you want to see people's faces, but we do not need them all the time and in small groups, especially this is Zog S exhibit see Anita and our colleagues of bursting us show that if you're in pairs you actually achieve higher,
collective Intel, intelligence, you're, smarter together, if you are only audio, if you don't see each other
and we don't know whether some of that is a distraction effect again of of looking at each other. We can save him
data, though, is that when you are hearing only the voice, you are more likely to pause and let the other person talk as opposed to dominating the conversation, because you actually have to check to see if there's still there and with you,
whereas when you see them, it's a little bit easier to assume that you're on the same age and you're in sync. As a result, there is less even turn taking and you end up with a less balanced conversation. So I guess, if I were to sum up my closing argument, I
Say allowing people sometimes to turn their cameras off, has three clear benefits: one emotional accuracy to is reducing zoom fatigue and three
is giving everybody a chance to be included in the conversation, so damn what you gonna do now a victory dance perfect, but let me actual
let me in the spirit of your last book. Thank again and the idea of you know intellectual humility in writing your own biases. Let me make the counter argument. Please do I'm ready to shoot down other, I guess thou
me, going back in the prosecutor Mount instead of scientists dump the counter argument,
ok, ten percent happier is a pretty new company. We doubled in size from employees base perspective in the course of the pandemic. Many these people
never met each other
one of the co founders in the face of the company. My mere presence can raise people's blood pressure, not because of any thing inherent to me just because of
nature of power dynamics and eighty is beneficial for
people in their limited time, meeting with me to be able to feel like there are at least in some facsimile of a room with me in a in assuming room to get a load of
or of an animal mystic feel of one another. That's interesting so
I know of no evidence to speak to that set of arguments. Although there are a couple, study is waiting to be done there around whether people get more anxious if someone in power has their camera off, for example, and whether it actually does build trust to see somebody in a glitch caesium feed, as opposed to just sharing their voice. I think that's a reasonable case. I'm not sure it shifts
overall thinking there, which is, I am advocating for a mix of cameras on cameras off depending on who is in the room in the nature of the meeting, and so I think, if I were in your shoes, I would come back and say: you're right
presence is important. I am literally the face of this company and whether or not that's good for me,
Job as a leader is to serve the interests of the organization and try to make sure that my team is engaged
and if they want to see me that I put a servant leader in and sack it up,
but that doesn't mean I need my camera on every minute of every day. So, let's talk about which meetings are held.
They have cameras on and where we should all be taking a walk which, also, by the way, is consistent with ten percent happy years principles. Yes,
and one last thing to say this doesn't require response, but just in the name of fairness to the teachers who have complained about my zoom presence, which is that often,
they'll be in meetings where everybody else's cameras on and mine is the only one off and because I'm taking a walk, walkers I've been stuck in from my computer all day and I need
get out and really thank you and the just the objects of that aid just doesn't feel right and that, I think, is really true. Much more. My conversation with Adam Grant register this side. You wanna get to at least one more thing, and it has to do with teamwork, which is this notion of collective effervescence. That's a delightful term. What is that Turkey? I d love to take credit for Ipod coined by the great sociologist a meal durkheim. I think that my favorite terms this year have come from Socio just between that amazing,
time pointed over a century ago and he was describing the sense of energy that people have when they come together in a group around a shared purpose. So he was thinking about prayer or dance or even showing up at a stadium to watch a soccer game, and I think one of the real casualties of covert, whereas we lost their feeling of collective effervescence, and it wasn't just because we were unable to show up in crowds. If you agree that the recent research has been done, people found collective effervescing
riding on buses, you know just having casual chit chat with each other. They found it waiting a mine at their favorite coffee shop when they had that predictable interaction with the person who knows them is irregular behind the counter and those moments were all taken away from us. So I think that's the kind of experience that extroverts craved right away. An introverted said there. I don't need it, but then we found ourselves missing it. Is it an antidote to languishing? I think it probably is. I think they'd collective effervescence is its inexperience, where you get into grip flow as opposed to individual flow,
I think you know that's when people lose their sense of self completely in any case, threatened their just completely in the moment with the group at their part of, I think that obviously comes to mindfulness depending on the activity, may involve mastery or not ends the mattering, his kind, a built in right, because you have a role to play in this crowd or group.
I think one of the things that I find really interesting about. This is a lot of people during Cove id said I'd.
Not in the same room anymore, our collaboration skinny get hurt our cultures going to fall apart, so
working to invest a lot of time in Interpersonal trust building and we're going to try to bond so we'll do virtual happy hours. Well, you know
do a bunch of early and late he meetings every day so that we can all connect- and I don't have a problem with that other than the fact
sometimes there's just adding more work to people's already overextended calendars, but I think it's it in some ways: less effective. If you look at the data on teams, what matters most into virtual team is clarity of goals and clarity of roles goal. Clarity is about knowing what are we trying to achieve together,
and roll clarity is about feeling like there's a line of sight between what I do and our collective mission, and I think that, if managers who spent more time on that saying look, this is what we are really all about. It missus each person's individual contribution to that objective.
people would have found more collective effervescence? They would a languish less, and maybe I don't quite know yet what this is gonna look like bed,
it makes me wonder. I think part of wet where people are after in those moments of collective effervescence is a sense of what psychologists we called optimal distinctiveness, which is probably the last time I will throw out today. Optimal distinctiveness is when you feel like you fit in and stand out at the same time.
You belong to the group, but you also have a unique and vital role to play in it and that's what I think we're wanting to capture. I think that's, probably the best collective escape from languishing that I can imagine.
I love it last question: where did I go wrong? What kind of malpractice did I commend? What kind of questions should I ask if they have asked, but I didn't oh well, you ve got.
let me down dead Harris because you have not held me accountable for commitment made to try meditating in March, and I haven't done it and I'm feeling really guilty because its October, so one thing you can do is you can make sure that I follow up and far less covers? I have long resisted
the role of meditation enforcer, haven't? I am due to do it. Ok, you did ask me to do it
This is a triumphant moment for you. You got me to think again. You're com
they may not have your fears have ever and I actually said I'm going to try it when the spectres over and then promptly got focus on other things and started talking about languishing a bunch ends. I fell off my radar,
senior reminded me that I am I'm delinquents, so what
I do that would hold you accountable in the way that would be least annoying and find a context where is not just get a better
me, so if you can create a version of this experience that then I can share a story with someone else or their some
to be learned from my experience, meditating I'll, feel like it's, not a selfish act. Well, there's a great podcast called meditative story, which I've been out of you
yeah well, but maybe you go back on as limiting telling your story of a long time, sceptic curmudgeon and stick in the mud who actually did it and what happened and what didn't happen? That's pretty interesting. I think I could be talked into that will see if, if June bites without Thou, definitely give me an excuse to do it June, as the producer of that show, she very very smart, I suspect, shall by. I think that one of the biggest things
figured out over the past couple years is just like: I'm not that motivated Adsum hit my calendar for just for me. I have here a cavity right plenty for me. Yes, if, if it's gonna benefit, other people then followed
I mean the way that would benefit other people is because there are a lot of people who are sceptical about this unable to get over the hump to do it. Both donor to separate things that are sent have co morbid, but either skeptical of it or just can't get over the hope to do it or both
and to hear from somebody who figured out a way through
Through finding what it is, there actually would motivate you who could talk.
How they got over the hump him, what the practice did or did not do for them. I think that would help able yeah, if even if I don't like it, it might be an interesting reflection. Liking is not the right measure.
its, whether its useful. So you my lot, you might not like therapy, but if it helps to untangle some of your patterns, it's worth doing. You might not like going to the dentist, but it's worth it. If you're no longer- and you know terrible pain, etc, etc, that is such a western perspective on meditation that it's only useful if it produces some outcome, as opposed to saying I'm gonna, do it for the intrinsic experience of the activity. Well, it took me a decade to get to the point where now I do it
because it's a joyful but our conditioning as western economic units is what it is, and so I don't try to go through the hardest route. I try to go through the easiest route, which is playing into people's desire to big. You know, productive, etc, etc. You are always so sensible and pragmatic. Our I consider that
challenge, we can follow up line final file question before it goes. Can you just please plug everything you're doing right now, so that people can go back to read your books or listener pot cast or red? Whatever
you're putting out on the internets, I'm not here to plug my work, I'm here to have an interesting conversation way about pollution of the smartest people. I know. Oh, that's very kind, but please plug because that people are gonna wanna, get more
I'd work, just gearing up for a new season of my work, life fog cast trying to figure out how to make work, not SEC, so you can hopefully Jonas there. If you like, and the two books that I've read of yours, you ve written many but the two books, it I've read and really really benefited from. Thank again, which is most recent, and is
bout, the value of second thoughts, intellectual humility, overcoming your biases and then give and take which was written many years prior and I've read several times about the practical and, I would say, self interested benefits of generosity, which can often be talked about and serve Trickly self righteous terms, but the atom really puts it in that into the realm of self interest, which worked fur up in a western individualist,
like me always give her? I don't know about that. I'm working my way in that direction, always so great to see you. Thank you very much for doing this really appreciate it say,
and congratulations by the way and earning your freedom. I saw that you're retired idea
I mean well, I mean this a bit of a misnomer. I retire from ABC News, I'm still very much employed rightfully. So thank you for having me. As always, this is fun thanks again to Adam, for helping us kick off the work life
he's here on the show before we had out. Let me again mention the free work life challenge over on the temperature and happier your podcast, which will teach you had enough
get your life at work without losing your mind. The challenge starts Monday November, eighth on the ten percent happier at which you can download wherever you get your ass.
To join right now they show is made by
male Johns Gabrielle Zocor DJ, Cashmere Justine Davy can become a Maria
Tell and point with audio engineering I ultraviolet audio will see well on Wednesday
for a brand new episode. Part of the work life series with Kim Scott author, but the very compelling book called radical candor, which he actually followed up with another book called just work, both very interesting books. Let's talk about with her
see on Wednesday.
Transcript generated on 2021-11-01.