This is that percent, have your podcast com Dan Harris, hey everybody, as I'm sure you know, one of the hardest things to do in any relationship is to give feedback whether your boss, talking to an employee or an employee talking to a boss. It also, of course, true, as a spouse apparent a friend. It's always dicey. You dont, want to be too aggressive. You'd want to hurt him feelings, but you also don't wanna be indirect. You dont want them to miss the point and keep making the same mistake. This by the way is a mistake. I have made a bunch, I sometimes hold back, because I don't have the guts tell the truth. I am afraid of her knees, many feelings and then eventual a lucid and piss everybody off that is,

radical candour comes in that term comes from my guest today came Scott, who is the author of a book called radical candour and also a follow on book called just work, which is in part about how to speak clearly and effectively about the issues related to the supreme leader. it is an issue of diversity. Came joins us today as part of our ongoing work, life series were running on the show. In fact, this is the second of five consecutive brand. New episode will be dropping on how to do your life better and were using the word work in the broadest most capacious way. Work could be in office job or king inside the home with children or volunteer work whatever in conjunction with this serious here on the podcast cast, were launching a work life challenge over on the ten percent Europe will be dealing with lots of thorny issues, including feedback, impostor syndrome, jerks at work burn out.

Productivity, shame and much more. The challenge features to incredible teachers. You have Berne and Don Maurizio every day for seven days, you'll get a short video with me in station with either Matthew DAWN and then a guided meditation. The video does that teaching and meditation pounds the lesson, into your neurons. The challenge will kick this. Coming Monday November, eighth over on the ten percent happier app download the app now wherever you get your apps and joined the challenge for free. I back to today's episode, as I mentioned, Kim's God is the best selling author of radical candour and then the follow up book, which is called just work. She has coached executives at Dropbox in Twitter, she's, led teams at Google and this conversation. She's gonna talk not just how to speak. We radical candor, but also how to avoid its evil cousins, which include ruinous

but the manipulative insincerity and of noxious aggression these Earl, her terms, which are great she's off it talk about how to push for more equitable workplaces at all levels of an innovation, how to speak up about diversity without ruining your career and what to do with Europe, a person who has created the arm games also gonna talk about the rather difficult wake up, call that led her from her first book radical candor to her second just work, we'll get started with Kim's got right after this when it comes to what really matters at It's the power plants and nourishing soil for quality ingredients to help grow a healthier world, They do what matters to them, so you can do what matters to you like being present, saying yes or maybe even taking some view time to listen to your favorite podcast and all.

Making the most of each moment big and small, mega food supplements for what matters. If you're like me, you're feeling really cooped up ray, now. All I can think about is when I can go on my next vacation. I don't care if it's big or small. I just want to get away when you're ready to travel. You should check out price line. They can save you up to sixty percent off your favorite hotels and they even have exclusive deals on flights and rental cars price line makes it super easy to find a great price on your trip. They say every trip is a big deal and that so true, especially right now so visit price line to get a big deal on your next trip came Scott. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I love your show and I'm thrilled me here well well from you. I can trust that you're being candid, sir

I'll take that as a genuine government. People from my team sent me miles out my gosh. I love this ass. Our wish our recording on it today. Thank you, my pleasure, thanks for coming. now. Your book has been influential and ten percent happier on, though management level has been something that gets talked about a lot at how to communicate. Clearly. But kindly I love that, and I have great confidence that you all are not making the mistake that a lot of people make which they assume that radical Kanner as an excuse to be a jerk, some glad, I'm glad No it's in good hands with you all! Well, I mean, I think, we're jerks all the time. I speak for myself, I'm a jerk off, but I don't blame it on radical candidate. That's good! That's good and I doubt you enter should read my three. Sixty sometime sluts defines in terms your work

is radical candor radical candor is carrying personally at the same time that you're challenging directly, and I really believe, if you truly care about someone, you will challenge them directly and if you're gonna challenged and directly you better do it in the spirit of carrying personally. So it's when you can do those two things at the same time, that's radical candour, but probably also interesting to define what radical candor is not So if you think about caring and challenging, sometimes we challenge, but we forget to show that we care- and that I call obnoxious aggression, in an earlier version of the book. I called that sort of being a quadrant too in a radical candor two by two, and I stop doing that for very important reason. I found that when I did that people would start using this, radical candour framework to write names in boxes, and I beg of you, don't use radical

that way. These are not sort of labels to judge people where this is not another Myers Briggs Personality too. So I hope, as I define What radical candor isn't that people can use a radical candor framework like a compass to guide specific conversations with specific people to a better place. Now, there's a lot of problems with anxious aggression that causes a lot of harm for the person you're talking to one of the other problems of noxious aggression is that it often when I realize have act, I could jerk, rather than moving in the right direction on the care personally dimension, a radical candour I'll go the wrong way on challenge directly. And then I wind up in the workplace of all manipulative and sincerity, and this is where passiveaggressive, behavior political hey we're back stabbing of obnoxious, aggression, those front stab,

field of insincerity as back stabbing and that's where bad behaviour tends to come in the false apology- and this is both access, aggression and manipulative insincerity are sort of where the drama in the workplace emerges and so talk about stuff going wrong at work. We tend to be talking about two behaviors, but in my experience at least the vast majority of people make the vast majority their mistakes when they do remember to show that they care. Personally, despite everything you see on social media, most people actually pretty nice, so they do remember to show that they care personally but they're so concerned about not hurting someone's feelings that they fail to challenge and directly, and that's what I call ruinous empathy. So radical candor is when you do both at the same time and there's three ways to screw it up. So you references briefly, but you have a quadrant two by two of our paint it for you,

on the vertical axis is care. Personally, the horizontal line is challenged directly and then, when you put those two I'd together, you gotta plus with four boxes, radical or is in the top right top left. His ruinous empathy bottom left his manipulative insincerity. An bottom right is of noxious aggression, so those are the three ways to screw it up. Yes which leads to the obvious question, which is: how do we not screw this up easier said than done? I think one of the things that is important to understand why we are prone to screw it up, and so I think, on the care personally dimension, pausing to think about what moves us down on the care personally dimension, and I'm not talking- I am talking about all of us- not the psychopaths, but the vast majority of Us- and I think the problem here I mean sometimes your stress in your busy and therefore you failed to show that you care personally, but I think the fundamental problem there began.

More eighteen, nineteen twenty years old were right at that moment. when our egos are maxim fragile. At least mine was and IR personas persona are beginning So let us try and right at that crucial moment of development. Someone comes along and says the professional, and I think an awful lot of translate that without even realising what we're doing to mean Lee your emotions Lee who you really are, leave your humanity, leave everything that's best about you at home and show up at work like some kind of robot, and you can't possibly care personally, if you're, showing up at work like some kind of robots. I think that's part of the problem think. The other part of the problem begins not one were eighteen years old, but when we're eighteen months old and you know,

Raise your hand if you had a parent or someone who told you, if you don't have anything nice essay, don't say anything at all and now all of a sudden. Congratulations, it's your job to say it, and it's really hard it's hard to undo training that speed. Sort of pounded into our head since we are eighteen years old and even harder to undo training, that's been counted into our heads, since we were eighteen months old and so part of this is sort of offering ourselves some grace and forgiveness. Of course, it seems like it ought to be easy like who doesn't care? Who doesn't challenge? You won't tell someone something that they need to know and yet understanding and forget ourselves for why it's hard, I think, is a good place to start. I think the next thing release that made it much easier for me is to think about stories stories from my life when I got it wrong, so that the consequences

to be more clear to me, I think very often I wind up and ruinous empathy, because it feels nicer. The reason why I called ruinous empathy is that sometimes I think in Passaic can be paralyzing and so moving from ruin sympathy radical candour. For me, it's story telling us the best way for me to remember to do that. I'll, tell you a story. If you want me to yes, I do All right. So here is my ruinous empathy story. I had just tired this guy will call him Bob and I liked Bob Alot. He was smart. He was charming. Who is funny he would do. Why could we were at a manager off site and we were playing one of those endless get to know you games, and this was a start up and we read a stressful time and the companies, history and everybody kind of wish. We could just get back to work and Bob was the guy you at the core

to raise his hand and to say you know what I can tell everyone is a little bit stressed out and I've got an idea. It'll help us get to know each other and it'll be really fast. Ever his idea was if it was fast, we were down with it and so Bob says, let's just oh around the table and confess to one another. What candy our parents used when potty training us and then for the next ten months, every time there's a tense moment and a meeting Bob would do about just the right Pisa Candy for the right person at the right moment. so will light Bob. He brought a little levity to the office. One problem with Bob. He was doing terrible work. He would hand stuff into me There was shame in his eyes. He knew his work wasn't really good enough, and yet I was so puzzled. So anyway, I would say

something to Bob along the lines of Obama you're. So smart yourself, also we all love working with you. This is a great start. Maybe you could make it just a little bit better way. of course he never did, and this goes on for ten months and eventually the inevitable happens- and I I said if I dont fire Bob, I'm gonna lose all the people, my team, who are doing great work their having to redo Bob's work. their deliverables relate because his deliverables relate So I sat down. I have a conversation with Bob than I should have frankly began ten months previously and when I, finished, explaining the him where things stood. He kind of pushed his chair back from the table and. Me right in the eye- and he said Why didn't you tell me and those that question was going around in my head- was no good answer. He said why didn't anyone tell me, I thought you all cared about me.

And now I realized that by not talking to Bob, I was just trying to be nice, I'm having a fire him because I haven't told him not so nice, not so kind after all, but it was too late to say Bob, even Bob at that moment decided he should go. Because his reputation was just shot on the team and was going to be easier for him. The start over somewhere else- and all I could do in the moment- was make myself very solemn, is that I would never make that mistake again and that I would do everything in my power to help other people avoid making that mistake, and that's really why a row radical can am I I came up with this radical canter two by two that hopefully makes a little easier in the moment. To remember to move towards radical camera, I like a story. A lot mature bob doesn't like it better

it sobs. Ok, by the way I got another job, so everything skirt is illustrative at a very useful way, and so can me a single event for a similarly illustrative at useful story about doing it right, because I am regularly perhaps gouging among the three non radical candor quadrants of these two by two, and so it would be helpful for me and heartening for me to hear some examples, or maybe even just one of how to get yourself out of those very easy to fall in pitfalls. Yes, positive? Target identification stories are just as important even more important than the cautionary tales. So one moment when this crystallized for me happens only after I had moved all the way across the country and taken a new job at Google,

and I had to give presentation to the ceo and the founders about how the adsense business was doing, and I walked into the room, and there was Sergei Bran one of the founders on an elliptical trainer and a bright blue spandex unit hard wearing toast who's, not really what I was expecting to and there and the other corner of the room was Eric Schmidt. Who will see you at the time doing the email and he was so intent on. The machine was like his brain had been plugged into his computer. So, probably like you in such a situation, I felt a little bit nervous how in the world so supposed to get these people's attention. Luckily, for me the since business was on fire and when I said how many new customers we added over the last couple of months. Eric almost fell off his chair and they said you need they need more marketing dollars, dna, more engineering resources. So I'm feeling, like the meetings going, all right, in fact

I now believe, I'm a genius and I walked out of the room after the meaning feeling triumphant. I walk past my boss and I'm expecting a high five or a pat on the back and instead she says to me: why don't you walk back to my office with me and I thought oh well, I screwed up map and I'm sure I'm about hear about it and she began the conversation with me not by telling me what I had done wrong, but by telling me what I had done right, but actually seeming to mean what she said. And being very specific and sincere, but of course all I wanted to do- was to hear about what I had done wrong and eventually she said to me: you said: I'm a lot and there were you aware of it, and with this I breathed a huge sigh of relief, because if that was all I had done wrong, who really cared? And I sort of made this brush

gesture with my hand, and I said yeah. I know it's a verbal tick. Really it's no big deal and then she said, I know a great speech coach. I bet Google would pay for it. Would you like an introduction- and I'm not get my hands Once again, I make does brush off gesture with my hand. I said now: I'm busy, didn't you hear about all those new customers. I don't have time for a speech coach and then she stopped. Looked me right in the eye, and she said I can tell when you're doing that thing your hand I'm gonna have to be a lot more direct with you when you say on every third word and makes you sound stupid. Now, she's caught my full attention and some people might say was mean of her to say I sounded stupid, but in fact it was the kind of thing she could have for me at that moment in my career cause, if she hadn't used just those words with me and crucially, she would not have used those words with other people on her team,

or perhaps a better listener, and then I was but with me if she hadn't use just those words, I never would have embassy the speech coach am I wouldn't have learned that she was not exactly. Eating I literally said arm every third word Was news to me because I had raised money for three different start ups, giving presentation inside thought. I was pretty good at it, it was almost like. I had been marching through my whole career with a giant hunger spinach between my teeth and no one had had the common courtesy to tell me that I was there so that to me was an example of radical candour and, what's think about how I knew that she cared and also its pretty clear how what you did to challenge me directly. She in no uncertain terms showed everyone who worked closely with her that she cared about them, not just as

and employ, but as a human being. So, for example, shortly after I joined the company, my father was diagnosed with cancer and I was have stated Ere she said: look you go to airport, get a flight home, I'm gonna write your coverage plan and your team has your back. That's what good teams for one another that you couldn't do that kind of thing, of course, for all five thousand people in her organization relationships don't scale, but tat was the way that she behaved with everyone who worked directly with her and when a leader cares personally, it creates a culture of carrying it's much more likely that their people

then in a treat their direct reports in the same way. So that was the care personally, but also she was not going to mince words when I wasn't hearing when she was trying to tell me hears what of struggling with a little bit, which is the mustering of the courage that it took for the boss to use the word stupid with you. I have a cent probably the courage comes out of the caring, yes, but a lot of us struggle, it's it's an uncomfortable thing to do, and so I hear you saying it's the right thing to do. It seems obviously true that it's the right the dew, and yet I don't want to do it because I don't hurt somebody feelings. People talk about this all the time like the courage to say this, and I think courage is a dangerous word in this context, because

I don't want to do this because I'm courageous. I want to do this because I care about this other person, and so, if I think in terms compassion rather than courage. It's more inspiring. me anyway, but I don't want to pretend like was easy or that it was comfortable if it were easy for her to have said that, then she would have landed in a macho segregation, and I think this is something that really important. Radical candour gets measured, nodded the speed there's mouth but at the listeners ear. And so, if you go into these conversations being prepared to be very a too two: how your words are landing for the other person, then it's much more likely that you're going to choose the words that are easier for them to here, and I think that. and between my boss and a lot of other managers I have had is that she knew who was hard job to be clear. Now there are other times like if I were a different person

perhaps a better listener. Then she might have had to attend more to the care personally dimension. So she said you said a lot and there were you aware of that, and I had tiered up for example, then she would have had to attend to the emotion in the moment and not to dismiss it as being unprofessional or something like that. But to say you know, my goal here is not to upset you. This is I'll, be. Ok. I want to help you solve the problem. Then the trick is to realize that you're doing that in service to the other person you're not being mean and the trick when someone gets upset- or maybe they get angry, sometimes give someone feedback and they'll start yelling. But if I got mad, then it's your job to get curious to understand why I'm getting angry get curious, not

So knowing which factor to choose when to move up on care personally and win to move over on challenge directly is all a matter of trying to understand the impact that your words are having on that other person, much more by conversation with Kim's, got rid of this hello, Tpa listeners when it comes to tools for increasing our happiness, obviously meditation is a big one, but it certainly not the only one. For me, another crucial tool has been therapy and that's where our sponsor better help comes in. If you go to better help, dotcom slash happier, you can have your individual needs assessed and be matched with your own licence, professional therapist, it's safe, private, convenient and quick. You can start communicating with your new therapist in under forty eight hours once you ve match, You and your therapists can send messages back and forth schedule, weekly video or phone sessions all without ever having to sit in an uncomfortable waiting room. To be clear, this is not a crisis line, its professional counselling.

securely online and its available all over the world. Better help can help. You start living a happy life today and as a tpa listener. You'll get ten percent off your first month by visiting our sponsor at better help, dot com, slash happier too, went over a million people who have taken charge of their mental health go to better help. Hd lp dot com, slash happier, hey hey it's dead! Harris from ten percent happier, and you may have noticed that sometimes work can suck. So I would like to invite you to me in the free work, life challenge in the ten percent happier at will have you navigate works, dress and find a little bit more happiness in your data day every day in this way, challenge will get a short video from me and a meditation teacher followed by a short meditation download. The ten percent happier act from your store and joined the challenge for free. I don't have the problem with courage that you do amid. I understand

compassion for some may be more inspiring, and I figure equally inspiring, but compassion produces courage on the regular. Yes, you know firefighters, running into burning buildings, etc, etc, and this really is a form of risk taking because, as you said, radical candor gets measured at the ear of the listener, as much care you're taking to deliver your message skilfully, you don't know how you gonna go down. You know. No, what land and you might be stepping on, and so you might be sitting in front of incense person, you can be accused of some sort of isn't more some sort of prejudice. Yes, a lot of people. The workplace are worried about that these days, so it does take courage, I think, to do where you're describing yeah. I just think that if you say

I've gotta be courageous. I don't know for me that can lead people either to say it in the cruellest possible way in the think, they're being courageous. Also, I think mostly, we do wimp out of doing This is the reason why I wrote the book is that it's easy for me to say be radically candid, but I'll confess that it's hard for me to do it too, and I don't think it's because I'm lacking and courage. I think it's more because, as you say, you do take a risk that you want to be in an environment where you believe you'll be rewarded for taking the risk, I think also once we're getting in two concerns about impact on me: not impact on the other person who talking to then I man, manipulative insincerity territory like if we go back to that Bob story. Tell it as a ruinous empathy story, but if I'm honest with myself part

The reason why I said to Babo you're, so smart may begin to make it a little bit better part of the reason why I didn't talk to him, clearly was not only because I liked him and I cared about him and I didn't want to hurt his feelings, but also because Bob was a sensitive guy everybody loved Bob and so was part of me, and I was afraid that if I told Bob in no uncertain terms that his work wasn't nearly good enough that everyone would feel like. I was a big. You know what and oh, I think realizing that the part of me, worried about my own reputation as a leader. That's the manipulative insincere, part into me getting over. That is not so much a matter of courage It is a matter of realizing that my goal is in service of this. Other person idea Morris Selfless ACT rather than our courageous act. It certainly, though, that you could,

could get over your reputation, management impulse yeah and still have it go poorly. Yes, yes, and that's where I think you need the skills to pray. Des Learning, how to know how to move. Up on the care personally dimension of the person is sad or mad or how to keep moving out on the challenge directly dimension. If the person is just brushing you off, and I think it's a skill, it's not like a caricature attribute that we have our. We don't have a thing to skill that we all need to build. That's why I recommend practicing with people a lot of radical candor about overcoming our social impulses, which are often characterised by a really strong negativity, bias, sir, I think in

after when we learn things, we pay more attention to our mistakes than what we get right, but especially when it comes to interpersonal relationships. We do that and my experience in it is that when you try radical candour nine times out of ten, it's going to go well, it's gonna go better than you expect, but I know the ten, as you say, you'll have kind of some form of eradicating train wreck, the personal be various the personal burst into tears, or the present won't hear you and so practising what to do in those moments is important, but also trying to relay,

nine nine times out of just does gonna go better than you think, and and so you you may as well optimized for the thing that usually works instead of the mistake. That happens. One time out of ten I've had to do many years of coaching to to get better at this, but I found that being very explicit about the caring in my message to somebody. Hey, I'm telling you this, because this is an important relationship to me- has been extremely useful in terms of avoiding the one in ten I go. Candor train wreck scenarios. Yes, and I think everybody has to express that differently, but expressing your intention to be helpful because you care about that person,

one way or another is hugely important if you really feel that way, if you don't feel that way, then maybe have some deeper deeper work to do, but the vast majority of people, actually I find, do care about their colleagues. They do want to improve the relationship and I think we don't spend enough time giving voice to that. So I think that's really important point is stating our intention to be helpful because you care about the person. Can I jump on that because it reminds me of a I've. I've invoked this person's name and her insight. Many times on the show out and got Nick Child psychiatrist has said that we don't care for people because we love them We love because we care, in other words the labour of love, the carrying generates the love, and yes, I would imagine,

because I've had times and in listening in this in our brief friendship here of I think you were, I think, maybe maybe I don't care you know. Maybe that's the problem, I'm just a monster yeah. Maybe that part of that is true, but I have found that the going through the process of tat, somebody, something that I dont want to tell them, but actually very important for them to know and for me to have them no and to state I'm doing this, because I care about the relation that labour actually creates. Some love some care yes m But let me when we work on something we begin to love it and when we work with someone we usually begin to love especially for communicating well and taking the time to remember that carrying is gonna, help the work go better and also the relationship go better than the doing that work. I also think, though, some London to catch twenty two people feel like they need to wait until they ve built a relationship with someone before they can

either challenge directly or show they care. So they can hang out and ruinous empathy and that's not. Where are you actually? EL the gun relationship? In fact, for me, though, origin story of radical candour happen in space and time took a light to change on the street of Manhattan. What the perfect stranger had just gotten us puppy golden Retriever, puppy and belvedere, and I loved Belvedere so much tat. I had never said across word to her and ass a result. She was totally out of control, so I'm taking her for a walk and she jumps in five, a speeding cab and I pull out of the way just in the nick of time I'm standing on the street corner with my heart and my throat and this man, a perfect stranger, looks at me and he says I can

hell. You really love that dog and then he says, but you're gonna kill that dog. If you don T turn to sit in the points of the ground, this kind of harsh just journeys has set the dogs sat. I had no idea tat even knew at that met, and I can have looked up at him in amazement and he said to me: it's not mean its clear and then allow changed and he walked off looming, we weren't stolen by so though I think that is really important to remember that the seeds of trust or actually sown and Imagine you're having lunch with someone for the very first time and they are spanish in their teeth. You know you're supposed to tell them, even you dont know them very well is a little bit more awkward than it would be. If this person were close friend, okay, so skills, because I think most people- I would imagine, listening to the conversation thus far- will be sold but not wiping out to use your term is seems very important here. So how do we pray

these skills there's a definite order of operations tyrannical candour and that all begins with soliciting feedback not giving it don't dished out before you prove you can take it and often and our own. Ships. We have feedback that and when you have feedback tat in a relationship, another word someone else has been doing something that's been bothering you for a long time, but you haven't taken the time to tell them pretty soon. That's all you can notice about this. Other person. Is this flaw, and so it's really important to take a step back to ask what you could do or start doing that might make it easier to work with you, you're, probably you're, doing something annoying to and its also important. I think

the things that moves us very quickly into the obnoxious aggression. Quadrant is the fundamental approbation error where you soon the whole problem is some attribute of that other person, and so, if you're asking for feedback, your likely to begin to notice the situation from Other persons perspective and then are also able to reward the radical candor when you get it, and so I ask for it and then you to give it- and you want to remember that radical candor is not just about criticism. You want to focus on the good stuff. You want to take a moment, as we are talking about before, to give voice to the things you appreciate about the other person. this is also gonna move. You pass that fundamental attribution air and then, when you offer some criticism, you want to start gently. You want to start in kind of a neutral place and then noticed how the other person is responding.

and you say you want to gauge how your feedback as landing and they will. Then you wanna adjust how you're talking and if the person is sad or Mab vast your cue to move up on the care personally dimension. If the person is not hearing you. That's your cue move out further than you're comfortable going on the challenge directly dimension and I think those kind of the sort of guard rails getting this right, and you want to remember that these conversations are conversations that should be happening like on a weekly basis. This is not you're, not saving this up for a one on one in your deftly, not saving up for performance review, but you should be soliciting feedback every week you should be giving pride. Is me and I'm three or four or five or seven times a week, and you should be.

Frank, a little bit of criticism, and these are impromptu two minute conversations. This is fast and it's free. The only problem is, it takes enormous emotional discipline to do it, and so that's why I recommend this order of operations. A few bake in to your one on one meetings, a little bit of time to solicit feedback, and then you bake in two year schedule a little bit a slack time and between meeting. So you have time to talk two people, whether you're in person or on zoom. You want to make sure you have a little bit of time between your meetings. There is a moment to pull the person aside and chat with him. Question came. My when you're taking this feedback debt there are times where

I have college who actually like, but a kind of feedback dead arise is, it might be a colleague who might be a friend of family member, but there's something about their personal style. That is annoying that doesn't seem like a thing they can fix. So I do kind of let it go because, what's the point of saying anything, this is Turkey one. I think in general, trying the let the little things go is really important and important. all for any relationship is to leave three unimportant things on said every day and so, like I had a boss. One suit didn't like the fact that I too unaware baggy likewise, and he thought it was legitimate feedback to tell me to buy tighter Jane. I do not feel that those legitimate feedback he had a gold, I didn't feel like it was legitimate fab, unlike his gold chain, but I didn't feel like it was gentlemen feedback for me to tell him the spot. Wherein is gold chain right and so

knowing when those things are not really your business and not important, being Well to let them go is important and an intimate relationship. It's over. like a utilitarian view, and in my opinion, is it be easier for you to get over it or is it gonna be easier for the other person the changes thing, if it's a small thing and if it's really login you, for whatever reason, even if efforts rational just own your own feelings about the thing to say. Look this! I can't help it this bugs me and our relationship. You can I ask someone else to move around your own neuroses. I think your work, you gotta manager, own neuroses, it's all heart.

it's all about. None of it is easy, but it's not that hard. It is hard yes, but when you start putting this stuff into practice, you'll find that it's not as hard as you think, because you'll get rewarded in your relationships and in your work, much more like, rotation with Kim's got rid of this something I think we're all missing. Right now is travel just getting out of the house out of the neighborhood and going somewhere new somewhere different, It doesn't have to be somewhere crazy, just somewhere that isn't here when you're ready, travel. You need to check out price line, it's an important time to save and you can get huge savings on travel when you book with price. Fine price line can save you up to sixty percent off your favorite hotels. they have exclusive deals on flights and rental cars too, because when you get a big deal, you feel like a big deal, whether you're planning to meet up with old friends finally made up with that new family member,

just looking to get away for a long vacation price line has covered visit price line to make your next trip a big deal, something think we're all missing. Right now is travel just getting out of the house out of the neighborhood and going somewhere new somewhere different it doesn't have to be somewhere crazy, just somewhere that isn't here when you're ready travel. You need to check out price line, it's an important time to save and you can get huge savings on travel when you book with price. Fine price line can save you up to sixty percent off your favorite hotels. they have exclusive deals on flights and rental cars too, because when you get a big deal, you feel like a big deal, whether you're planning to meet up with old friends finally made up with that new family member.

Just looking to get away for a long vacation price line. Has you covered visit price line to make your next trip a big deal? I'd like to get you to tow another story here, because, as I understand it, you got some clear feedback after her published radical candor that lead to you ready a whole new book. Can you tell that story place? He absolutely. I had just a radical candor workshop tech company in San Phronsie Go in the sea of that company. I had been a colleague of mine from the better part of the deck a woman who I really like and respects enormously and one of too few black women and tech, and when I finished the presentation she pulled me side and she said you know, come I'm really excited to roll out. Four candour on the team? I think it's gonna help me bill kind of culture that I want, but she said I gotta tell you can't it's much harder,

made a roll it out than it is for you, and she explained to me that is then issue would offer even the most gentle compassionate criticism. She would get signed with the angry black woman stereo type, and I knew this was ass soon, as she said it I knew was true. And I had sort of three regulations. At the same time, the first was I had not been the kind of colleagues the kind of abstained or, as I call it and just work that I wanted to be. I had failed to even notice. The extent which she had always for the better part of a decade showed up at every meeting I had ever been in with her unfailingly pleasant and cheerful, I'm happy and believe me in that period of time she had what to be ticked off about had work as we all do, but she could never let it show, and so I had failed to be the kind of abstained or for her that I wanted to be. The second

and I realized, was that I had failed to recognise the kinds of things that had happened to me and also the kind of thing said I had done as a white woman in the workplace to either be harmed or cause harm tarred for the author of radical kin, to admit it, but I had been in denial about a huge part of my career and, last but not least, her words, help me understand that I had failed to be the kind of leader also often that I wanted to be in which I could prevent nonsense from making it impossible, for people on my team to just work to do their best work and to be treated fairly, and it was that oh man and is probably my whole life- that prompted me to write just work, but it was that moment where everything really crystallized for me. So what are some ways to.

either if you're, on a leadership position to create an environment where people can feel safe to be radically candid or if you're, not in leadership. But you aren't in a position where you feel comfortable being radically. Candide, what do you do in either of those situations? I'll lay I'll? Let you take whatever perspective. You want first, really good stuff It comes from Alan Eustace who, as engineering later Google and jumped out of a plain at some world record, breaking altitudes anyway, so he would stand up. Alan would stand up in front of his team. Come thousand people any. He would say if you are under represented and you ve experienced some form of workplace injustice, some form of biased prejudice, bullying and last week raise your hand not every night, career. But in the last week one hundred percent of the under represented people raise their hand and then he would say: ok, everybody put

hand down now, if you have been unjust to someone, if you have been biassed or prejudice or a few bullied, someone you work with and last week raise your hand, nobody raise their hands and he said there is the problem. We can't fix problems, we refused notice. So one of the things I tried to do and just work is to make it clear what are the things we can do when, where the leader, what are the things We can do when we are the person harmed and, as I told you my story, I never wanted to think of myself as a victim. So it's hard, I think, for a lot of people to realise that their being harm to even admit themselves idle and others at their being harmed, but even less than wanting to think of myself as a victim did I ever want to think of myself as a perpetrator, and yet we all cause harm in the workplace. So it's really important to know what to do if you're the person who cause harm and last, but certainly

at least one of the most important reasons why I wrote just work is to honour the up standards, the people who notice injustice that happening around them and who intervene and somewhere or or other, so let's start with what can we do as leaders about sort of work They send us how how could I in particular have created a better working environment than I did as a leader? So I think the first thing is to begin to break the problem down into its component parts right now, when I say workplace injustice

probably a lot of people feel like. I don't even want to keep listening. It feels like such a big monolithic problem it impossible to solve and when you are facing a problem like that, it's always best to break it down into its component parts. Even though, of course, it's a little bit artificial these, but then bear with me so bias, prejudice and bullying are, I think, the root causes of these problems, and I think it's really important to distinguish between the three, because I think too often we conflate them and it's important to respond to each differently so bias I'll define as not meaning it's usually an unconscious stereo type that we reject. When we become aware of but prejudice, sometimes people really do have beliefs, prejudice, police and it's important to recognise that happen. Sometimes till we have to respond differently and other times, people have no

believes that all their just bullying they're just sort of meaning harm, and we have to respond very differently as later stall. Three. So in the case of bias the things that I recommend is to roll out biased disruptors on your team. So there are three parts to a biased disruptor. The first is to come up with a shared vocabulary. People often ask me what words should I use, and the answer is you should use the words that your team will actually say so talk to your team and say what what are you all want to say it has to be. We have to agree, but what are you Say when you notice bias in a meeting, so my co founder too, our Bryant and I like to wave of purple flag? It's not a red flag, it's a friendly purple flag. So we are, we say, purple fly if we don't happen to have it other teams we worked with have said things I come again, so somebody says come again. That means they just noticed something biased,

being said. One team that we work with has kind of a cat. They made me I'll at each other. Ok, so this gonna quirky by their works for them. So the important thing is that it works for your team, so shared vocabulary. The next thing that is really important. is to have a shared norm about how to respond when it you're biases been pointed out. So how can we respond? When is our bias? It's been pointed out. I feel like a thing, I'm not alone here. A lot of people feel ashamed when their biases pointed out and I mean I can tell you physically in my body, where I feel it it's like and its tingling in the back of my knees, it's the same sensation if I'm standing to close to a precipice- and I think it really.

Important to begin to learn how to recognize that chain, because you're lizard brain is in charge when you feel ashamed or a kind of an fight or flight or freeze response from you. Almost no one responds very well in their shame. That's why the shared norm is really important to tell people how to move that James. So you one of two responses when some one point out your biased one is thank you for pointing it out. I get it I'm working on it, the whereas thank you for pointing it out, but I dont get it. Can you explain it to me after the meeting ET. One is even more difficult because at least for me when I realized that I've said or done something that's by us, but I don't quite know what exactly I did wrong now. Not only do I feel ashamed I've harmed someone. I feel ashamed at my own ignorance and so loving

people now that we're all in these situations from time to time and here's what you can say to move through, that shame is really important and then the third part of the biased, disruptor, as a shared commitment, because I promise you that in every meeting in every company every day at least one or two or three biased things get said, and so she gets the the meeting and you haven't flagged any bias, then that means nobody noticed or nobody had, as you say, the current Nobody knew how to speak up, and so that's why that shared commitment is important, so that one simple tactical thing: that any leader can roll out today on their team, you don't have to wait till tomorrow, sit out, talk to them and then encouraged this too. Don't just encourage but insist that desk continue to happen, so that's bias. But what do you do about prejudice? What do you do when someone says

something that harms others on your team. But that reflects a conscious belief. I think here you need to write a code of conduct for your team. That splain to everyone where the line is between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they that they are bitten from saying or doing whatever they want. They cannot impose that freedom that belief on others on the team and there's no absolute, F initiative. I mean I have strong opinions about where that line is for teams that I work with, but you want to make it explicit and clear: the people and then that helps people to respond to prejudice when they notice with something like it is an eight hour violation to say, or do that it is illegal to say, or do that and last but not least, bullying it so important that lead.

create consequences for Boeing, because the thing about Boeing is that it works for the boy and it harms the whole team and harms the teams ability to collaborate, and so you really want to make sure that your creating conversation, all consequences for Boeing, you're, you're learning how to shut it down in the moment, you're also creating compensation consequences for boiling too often people who chief results by harming others, get good performance reviews and therefore good bonuses, and you are, make sure that there are really strong career consequence. Bowling. The last thing you want to do is promote someone who indulges in boiling to managers on my and in does a really good job. The software company does a really good job of this, where they explicitly don't promote the quote: unquote: brilliant jerk,

and so you wanna as a leader optimized for collaboration over coercion, and that means shutting down bowling Those are some things that leaders can do to address the root causes of workplace injustice, so those are the leaders, that's one directive, another perspective would be from and where all many of us are many of these have me ass. I sometimes all at the same time. Yes confusingly another perspective would be the president to does something you know who causes harm yeah, we doesn't unskilful. What's your advice for those people about? I want to thank those people like there's somebody the light for us when we are the ones who cause harm, because I certainly have been a person who cause harm more times than ever intended. I think that the key thing there

to listen and address, listen and address, and a big part of that is being able to move through shame and, and also a few of the person who is harmed. It's very useful to try to assume good intent, but if you're in getting some feedback that you call harm, don't jump up and down and yell and scream. I didn't mean to that's. Not it's like imagine that you are stepping accidentally stepping on someone's foot effect. Told you hey you're, stepping on my foot? You would just say I'm sorry and you would get off their foot. You wouldn't say I didn't mean to step on your foot mean while continuing to jump up and down harder on it, but I think very often when people get some feedback that they've caused harm, they do the sort of equivalent of continuing to step on the foot and assert that they didn't mean and so I think it's really important to learn how to apologize, to listen and then to address to make a right so that the people who are causing

harm now what about abstainers and also people who are harm? How can we respond moment that role, Tobias prejudice and bowling, For me, if it is bias, US ice statement is really helpful up an ice statement invite someone else to understand the situation. From your perspective so, for example, a friend of mine, Alien Lee, who started cowboy BC, told me a store sorry about a time when she went into a meeting with two colleagues, both of whom were men and that they were trying to win a deal in a lean had the skills there. Weren't gonna win her team the deal and the other side file. Then and the first person, Santa Cruz ass from the guy to aliens laughed the next person file, then and sat across from guide to his left and then they file on down the table, leaving Elaine dangling by herself, often just the way we set reflect sort of unconscious bias and alien started? Talking somebody from

Besides, I had a question, but they directed at her to male colleagues. Somebody else had another question again addressing it to the man on her team and then the third time it happened. One of the guys Alien was where stood up any but I think a lean and I should switch seats was all he had to do to totally changed the dynamic in the room, and there are three important things here. One is that it was much easier for him to use that I statement. Then it was for aliens just more efficient for an upstanding to do it somehow, easier for those other guys to hear from him than it would have been the here from her too. He did it because cared about alien and they didn't like seeing her being treated unfairly. He didn't like to see her expertise being dismissed and then, He just wanted to win the deal and they know that if you couldn't get the other side to listen to aliens expertise and they work and when the deal so there are sort of a practical side and efficiency. Side gains

and also justice side to his decision to use that I statement- and it is- you know it's hard to know what are called this part of the for what to say when you don't know what to say because is really hard to know. So I would encourage people to, just say the word I and then see what comes out of your mouth as my great grandmother said day, something you can always take it back. So just start, sometimes it's about momentum and about just overcoming the inertia now if its prejudice, then you need an it statement, not an ice statement, because if its prejudice, inviting Their person to see things from our perspective is just going to result in an argument and there's a time and a place for those arguments. But usually you want to move more quickly than that. You don't want to argue with someone's prejudice so, for example, Chair Bryant, who cofounded

Us work with me tells a story about being in a hiring meeting. and the best candidate by far the most qualified candidates, everyone agreed was a woman who had worn her hair out naturally, and when got to the hiring meeting the hiring manager said well, we can't extend her and offer and two years why can't we send an offer to the person? Everyone agrees is most qualified. the job and the hiring manager said well. We can't put that hair and from the business so here at this point, what would, in its statement look like it is illegal which it is eleven states, including the one where they were working, not to hire someone because of their hair. The than the Crown ACT or it is each hour, violation which it was that company not the higher the most qualified candidates because of their hair or finally, if you don't

have the law or age are on your side. It is ridiculous, not the higher the most qualified Kate, because of it, sort of common human sense, and so that is in its statement, that's what to do when you are encountering prejudiced If you don't know what to say- and you think it's prejudice said a word it and see what comes out of your mouth next now, what do you do there's no belief, conscious or unconscious at all, going on when the person's just acting like a jerk, This is where a use statement is really useful so you can talk to me like that or if that feels like it might escalate things too much what's going on for you here or even just change the subject you now where'd you get that shirt. The point is, you are now asking the person answer your question. So you're not in a defensive, pose you're sort of in a stronger ants, I learned us actually from my daughter. She was and third grade and shoes

in bullied in school, and I was advising her as adults, often due to kids, to use an ice Damon. Tell this kid feel sad when you blubber and she bang fists on. She said mom they're, trying to make me sad. Why would I tell them they succeeded at you know, that's a really good point, and so you don't want to invite someone who's boiling. You closer mean a mushroom boxing with them, I think, but you're not you want to push them away as when you wanna do those strategies all sound, really smart actionable, but out of the back to the monk Were somebody points out that you ve done something that fits in one of these categories. Yeah you Who use the word. Shame. I think that will be enough the only recognisable by the vast majority of listeners- and you said it's important to move through the shame.

that is easier said than done in my experience. Having experienced plenty of shame. Yes, it is much more your said than done. You know. Bernay Brown has a great podcast on this about how to move through shame, especially if its unconscious bias You want to learn just to say thank you for pointing it out and then, if you're, not sure what you did wrong, you want to buy yourself a little bit of time say. Can you explain it to me after the meeting put all the educational burden on the person and pointed out, especially if that person is the one who you just harmed, I'm gonna go? Look it up I'm going to try to. I don't understand it, but I'm going to educate myself and then I'm going to fix this problem, and then you got to go, educate yourself,

if you're lucky and you have someone in your life, whose sort of a bias buster you can call that person up and no explained he wants you dead wrong. If you dont have a biased, buster in your life, most things you can google and you'll figure it out pretty quickly. So I'll give you a specific example the other day. recording a pod, and I said something about something: being grandfather in the person: waved a purple flag and dropped a link into the chat. Explaining that the phrase to grandfather something comes from crow laws in this. So that's not a phrase I'm gonna use again, although I may use it again like sometimes changing these habits is hard and the next time I use it, I'm gonna be either. more deeply ashamed. Cushy already pointed it out, and so I think it's really.

Port, and to learn how to be a sort of patient with ourselves, but also persistent to keep flagging this until we ve changed habits, These are patterns. These are unconscious patterns. We're, not the helpless victims. We can change those patterns, but it takes patient and persistence. Now if it is prejudice, it's a little bit harder discuss. Someone points out a prejudice to me. I may actually have a deep, seated belief, so figuring out how to remain open minded how to routinely question your own beliefs? Is really important. I think very often we act on thing, that we learned in some fifth grade class that we haven't, even with we're not even aware that we have these books so, becoming more aware of your deep seated beliefs and assumptions. There will definitely make you ten percent.

like you, a hundred percent, more uncomfortable in the short term, but it'll make you ten percent happier in the long run, because I was really a great source of unhappiness and when you come more aware of who you are at least it's my belief that then you do become happier and more yourself. I agree. The other perspective that we should talk about here is your suggested strategies for somebody who's, the aggrieved party, and how do you communicate what's happening without running your career, because when you trigger shame for people they don't like it? Yes, it's risky and very, very risky. Most of the time its lesson,

gave them. I think it is, however, so one of the things that I recommend people who are harmed by some form of workplace injustice is to choose your response. I don't want to rob people of silence, but I do want to change default to silence. There are times when it is really in your best interests to remain silent. However, in the course of my career, I think I'd defaulted to silence far too off, and as a result over time, I was beginning to feel a loss of agency, and so one of the things that I recommend to people that they, try to become as aware of the costs of silence as the benefits of silence, and so try to become. As aware of the benefits of speaking up, they are of the benefits of silence,

more often than not. There are times where it feels risky to speak up, but when you really think about it, the risk is not, as ass. You think, and the reward is enormous, so that sort of my abstract advice now how you put that into practice in day to day situation This is another matter. Any thoughts about that matter. One of the things that happened to me very often is that someone else Something to me- and I have no idea- is it biases and prejudices of bowling, and so I don't know what to say, and one of the things I've tried to do is to say I'm going to make my best guess and then I'm

changed so for, depending on how the other person respond. So, for example, I was just about to walk on stage to give a talk. I was at a venture capital conference, mostly men by ninety percent men at this conference and this one of the venture capital companies. El peas comes charging up to me and he says where where can I get a safety pen as He had lost a button on his shirt and He clearly thanks. I am one of the people who are staffing. The conference and I didn't know like- was this unconscious bias. Hetty just made an unconscious assumption, so maybe I say to him. You know I'm actually just about to go on stage and give a topic. I can't find a safe, you know the people who are suffering are wearing these yellow t shirt. And are also thirty years younger than I am vote anyway? So I kind of said that any might responded with. Oh I'm, sorry

or he might have responded with you're the rat. call candour, lady and our belief even that saw feminine leadership be ass. You know you could have had an actual conscious prejudice or he might have just been acting like a jerk and in Kosovo. don't get your panties in a while. You know and behaved like a boy unlikely that the second do things would have but believe me. Those kind of things have happened to me more than once said, certainly not impossible and if the second do happen. Then I'm going to go on stage boiling mad and it's gonna get to trick me up, and so I say nothing now. All of a sudden, I am not walk in the radical candor war. When I say nothing, and so then I feel bad about myself, and I am also you know This situation is not only a person who is harmed. I am also a leader, I'm a speaker,

and by just kind of brushing him off, I'm not being fair to the people who are staffing. The conference, because now he's gonna go ding there you didn't get very good service, and so you know, I fell bad- that I didn't respond. So I wish I had responded and taken the risk I could have afforded to like. If I messed up the talk. Who cares really so I feel bad about it later you kept bugging me. I write about this in the book. so. That's an example of Roma. Again stories tell about stories. Tell yourself the stories about the times. You didn't speak up that you could have that. You wish you had the sounds like you're, the person who's been harmed. You need to do a pretty complex, calculus to decide when and if and how you speak up yeah and that's why I offer these short definition Do, I think it's bias or prejudice or Boeing, and I think it's prejudice, I mean to say it and then see what comes out of my nap mouth next. If I think it's bias, I mean it

aye and see what comes out of my mouth next, I think it's bawling, I'm gonna, say you and see what comes out of my mouth next and then I'm going to notice how the other person responds. I've talked to a bunch of people. One friend of mine said this is really helpful. I always default to responding as though its bullying and I escalate to quickly, because very often it unconscious bias. I always respond while not always, but it's my default to respond as though its bias, and I think it important to acknowledge that's probably a matter of privilege? Nobody could possibly have any negative police, you know, and so sometimes I don't notice when someone's just actually acting like a jerk. I just assume they couldn't possibly intend today. That way- and that has hurt me as Well- so being able to respond with a way that seems most comfortable to you, but then

be aware about how the other person is responding to your response and adjust. Accordingly, you don't have to get it right, like taking the pressure off to have the perfect responses huge that allowed us to questions in closing here that I like to ask if the danish model of an episode one is: is there something I should have asked but didn't what happens after biased prejudice and bowling? So I've always now. I will answer at great you that when you should let you don't need me when you when you later power on top a biased prejudice and bullying things get much worse, you God discrimination. You got harassment and you get physical violations and there's a lot to be said about each. Three things and also the dynamic. Sometimes that can

need all the way from by us too, to violence in a heartbeat, but I think the shortest possible in the most important possible response to those things is you need checks and balances just like we need checks and balances and our government. We need checks and balances in our organizational structures and then our governance second question is: can you please plug the crap out of everything you're putting out into the world your books course? whatever. Thank you for that question. Yes, just work together, not com is our website at just workbook is aren't we yeah. Well, I'm at Kimball, Scott and around

call candor is radical camper dot com or at candor on twitter. We are happy to come, do talks and workshops for your teams or get off you want. I just do a book club happy to do a culinary so thrilled for more readers thrilled to help people put these ideas into practice. Can. Thank you very much. Thank you. Before, we have only just again mentioned, be free work, life challenge which will teach you how to navigate through life at work without losing your mind, or at least without losing your mind so frequently. The town starts Monday November eighth over ten percent happier app download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps to join for free right now, thanks again to Kim's got great after the show is made by Samuel Johns Gabriel's Ackerman, DJ, cashmere, Justine, Davy came by Maria were tell and Jan plant with GEO Engineering from ultraviolet audio will see

On Friday, for a special special episode, we're doing a bonus guided meditation this Friday, we actually doing a full episode with the great lorry Santos Doktor lorry Santos. Sure from Yale host of the happiness lab, podcast she's got all these research backed tips and tricks for navigating your work life more happily and successfully lorries great sorrow, for to chatting with her on Friday, if you're, like you're, feeling really cooped up right now, can think about is when I can go on my next vacation. I don't care if it's big or small. I just want to get away when you're ready to travel you to check out Priceline. They can save you up to six. send off your favorite hotels and they even have exclusive deals on flights and rental cars. Priceline

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