This is the temperature. Have your pockets, Vandam Harris, hey, hey! We got two big and fascinating themes were going to explore on the show today. The first is enlightened self interest. One of my favorite subjects. We all want to be here every sentient being has that in common, and it turns out that one of the most successful, although a little bit counter intuitive strategies for getting happier is too. At your own head and help other people. My guest today argues that tearing is a skill that all of us can develop and further,

there are ways she argues to scale carrying so that we can improve our entire society. Long before I met her years before I met her for this interview actually heard: Allison, God Nick drop a wisdom bomb on another podcast at one hosted by a previous guest on the show, as recline in the course of that interview with Azra House. ethnic said the following, and I am quoting here. We dont care because we love we love because we care. In other words, it is the act of providing ere the labour of love to be a little cute that produces the love. I have in this play out in my own life repeatedly and powerfully for example, when we had our first an only child. Seven years ago, my wife and I that relationship caring for that screaming and pooping little beast. It produced

a lot of love or when my wife went through breast cancer, which ended up improving our relationship immeasurably, although it was horrible in many ways to or more recently, when my aging parents, as I've, got through a complete Catherine all reversal, essentially becoming apparent to my parent, it's actually made those relationships even warmer, so that's one. We're. Gonna talk about Anna related theme or to talk about with Alison God. Nick, oh by the way, is a psychologist at you see Berkeley and one of the world's leading experts, cognitive development. The other thing were to be talking about us. What we can all learn about: human happiness and flourishing from children, even babies, you gonna, hear house and talk about the learning trap. That's a term of art common to adults that four year olds can help us avoid

the potential role of meditation in helping us see the world and solve problems more like kids. Do the difference between our spotlight attention and other technical term here and children's lantern consciousness. The strategy of solving problems by trying to solve problems and her critique of our modern conception of parenting and what she thinks should replace it. Just to say before we diving here, Allison got Nick is the author of among other books, the philosophical baby and the gardener and the carpenter more recently. Also one vital heads up there's a chance. You may hear some faint background noises whenever In speaking, this is the nature of recording remotely in a pandemic. The good news, though, is that the noises only come up in the first couple of minutes, and then they go way we'll get started with Allison got neck, read after this

Hey. So here is a word. You dont often associate with taxis and easy, but attacks that they use a all the time, because Tax act makes it easy to get started easy to. Finally taxes and easy to switch another where they use lot guarantee taxes guarantees, your max refund and with their one, four thousand dollar accuracy guaranteed. You can rest assured that their calculations are one hundred percent parades dont over pay for your tax filing software this year, while for less and get more with tax at good attacks. Acta com today for details restrictions apply it healthier eating as one of your goals this year than some basket. As guy you cover some basket, delivers meals with fold, flavors, organic produce and sustainable seafood and meets, and their ward winning chefs are constantly switching things up to include new recipes and flavors from all over the world. Plus they got held these and grab NGO breakfasts were busy mornings whether you eat.

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but a really changed my life. I think it's in incredibly powerful insight into the human situation. You said, and I'd love to get you to unpack this. After I repeat it, you said we don't care, because we love we love because we care, please explain. Yeah, so This comes out of a lot of work that I've been doing recently about caring about caregiving, about taking care of people and in many ways. This sort of quintessential example of that is the way that we take care of young babies and often we think that we love that baby and therefore we take care of them. But actually, if you either just think about it or look at the science, it seems as if the very act of caring for children. The very act of caring for people in general is the thing that makes us

add to them the thing that makes us love them. The thing that makes us feel that their special and, of course, babies, are really dramatic example of this, because we have no idea who is the baby is gonna, be before the maybe arrives and not entirely. Between remark the gray, no matter what the baby's like. We have this feeling of attachment, and it's interesting that if you look at the evolutionary background for human beings, we have a much longer childhood than any other species and partly as a result, because we need to have so much care for children, and I can talk about on the other functions that has a much wider range of people care for children than for it being the case of other animals, so not just biological mothers, but fathers and grandmothers and what the great anthropologist it, sir, Does our parents, people who aren't actually biologically related, are taken care of children. Now, maybe if we just biological moms, you could say: oh well, you know it's just biology. You have this baby, so then you love them but if you think about all those other people, the fathers and the cousin

then, the sender caregivers, they aren't gonna, be triggered by biology to these incredibly important, overwhelming emotions and actions and motivations, and could even show this in the neuroscience. The very act of caring for a baby changes. Your brain changes. The chemicals in your brain changes, though, that you function in a way that makes you have this very special relationship with a baby or the person, he took care of one of those deep, profound things that we take for granted taking care of US spouse, whose ill, for example, right, like you'd, think thats a difficult thing to do. It's a hard thing to do is lots of anxiety and stress involved with it, and yet it can make you feel that your closer to that person that you care more about that person, even when you don't expect that there's going to be a return, and I think that's a really different way of thinking about relationships between people than the typical way that we think about say. A social com

So if you look at almost all the work on moral psychology in economics and politics, the sort of assumption is we'll let the reason why people are at risk. The reason why people tree each other. Well, is because they have some kind of expectation that they'll get a return altogether view. If you take care of me and caregiving, especially caregiving for babies and children, but I think also the kind of caregiving that comes when you're taking care of someone who's in trouble or someone who's ill or someone who's elderly. It just doesn't seem to have that structure and instead, what seems to happen is that your extend turn yourself to take on this other person. So when you have a baby and you're taking care of a baby, it isn't that you are taking care of the baby, because you think you should it's, because the baby has become as important to you as you are yourself and in the meta meta, Tradition in the buddhist tradition, I think, is a really nice example of that, where the practice is to try to

in the same way about other people that you would feel about the people who your closest you, yes and I'm glad you may that connection to meditation matter, meditation, Emmy, TT, a ancient word that roughly translates into friendly. the underlying supposition. There is that love and I'm using the word love in the most capacious censorship of the ability we have is mammals to give a crap love, is a scale. It is not some factory setting that assent, Walter a bullet is not some magical. His mad oriented condition that you fall into It is a scale that you can train and daddy is the underlying supposition beneath matter meditation your training, your friendliness muscles, your capacity for warmth, but it is

also, as I understand it baked into the your and we love, because we care we dont care because we love, and that is scalable to all sorts of human interactions. For example, for me in the office I have been correctly accused of at times not paying sufficient attention to junior staffers. I have found that just forcing myself to do it even first average, who I may not feel like. I have got some immediate spark with just the active getting mice, when the habit of getting interested and asking mentor style, questions, etc, etc. All of a sudden, the caring is there to meet me when I'm doing the action, and so I just think this has profound ramifications for how we conduct ourselves in the world. No, I think one way that we could phrase this and more and more people, I think, are thinking bout worrying about caregiving and, of course the pandemic has made questions about how we care for other people really vivid. One of the interesting challenge

this is how can we scale lab that feeling that we so naturally have for our babies or for the people that were really close to where the people that we take care of There's some way that we could scale that up beyond just the relationships between individual people so that we could have a more general feeling of care in knots, I at large and very much the way that our society currently functions is that those relations of care are invisible. The daughter is taking care of her. Clearly father or mother, whose taking care of a baby, they don't show up in the gdp they're just sort of treated as if it's either of them. we badly paid form of work or a very expensive kind of consumer goods to care for the people around you, and I think what we realised the pandemic is that kind of care is absolutely central. Any society desperately needs to have that kind of care in order to be able to function well

things that I found incredibly touching during the pandemic was there were more than once you hear interviews with the elder care workers. You know terribly badly paid, not very well treated, in this difficult and then very dangerous, were an people saying well, why are you doing it and what they say is well look it's, Mr Smith, its old Mister Smith. I can't leave him. I can't just in black him my personal relationship This person, who I care for is really important, and it's really what's motivating me to do this kind of work and the question is there some way that we can support those personal, close relationships and their personal, close feelings that there are present and available on a larger scale, and you know I think again, if you thinking about the buddhist tradition, that kind of ideal of the body sought for you see similar ideals and other kinds of spiritual tradition. is that you can feel that way about everybody. Can I think the treaties for humans feel that way about everybody. You can't feel that close take connection,

everybody on the planet, but you might think of that kind of feeling is what you should feel for everybody on the planet and you might set up our lives so that it was easier to have those kinds of relationships and an example that I've given just you know a simple straightforward one is we could provide resources for people who are going to take care of particular elders or something that I think people are increasingly trying to do is to have any generational living, so their elders could be involved more and caring for children and vice versa. Children could be involved more and caring for elders. Even if it isn't your group, child or your grandmother, and that possibility the idea of putting together people who are from different generations who have different kinds of,

needs rather than segregating them. Here is the elders are often it assisted living and the children are often in child care, rather than doing that, trying to put people in positions of care and support people in positions of care recognise that taking care of someone is really important and that you should have a medical care, leave childcare, early ways of action, institutionalizing some of those relationships and supporting those relationships. And if you look at some of the philosophical traditions again, the idea that you could scale up their social contracts is really kind of basic to economics and power

the rights of the idea. Going back to Thomas Hobbes is the way that you can get people to get over their own selfish interests is to have a very large scale, social contract, where I do something for you and you do something for me and that works pretty well, if you ve got two agents who are have equal amounts of power and resources, but it doesnt work very well for these cases that are so fundamental to the human condition where we are vulnerable. We need to be taken care of. We need other people too, care for us. That model doesn't work very well in. The question is what could we do as individuals to be able to support those relationships of care, and what could we do as a society to support those relationships of care? And I think that's can be won the most important challenges facing us as we go forward and we don't very good institutions, to do that now, either on an individual or a larger societal basins. Beyond

your generational living. What kind of institutional structural changes do think could be made to harness this capacity? We all have to give a crap and said or care whenever you want to call it well. One thing- and I thought about that- I think, is an interesting possibility- is that one of the very few cases we have of love being supported, he'd, institutionally marriage. So marriage is an example where we say what we're going to do is we're going have both special responsibilities and special privileges for these two people to care for each other. But of course it's a very narrow slice of all the relationships of care that we have in the world and I think, as we ve started, to expand our ideas about marriage. You could imagine, for instance, having a relationship with a friend where you just said this is my designated terror and I will formally set I am going to care for this friend. One of examples I have, as you know, I have a very close friend who doesn't have any close family and isn't

I'd and she really worries what will happen if I get sick or what will happen if I need care and to be able to say here, someone who has officially legally taken on this role. Another example is godparents. You know it used to be that there was this institutionalized role of being the godparents for a bit Hitler child. We still have it in some of their religious traditions, but you can imagine actually having that return as a formal role so that when children are born, they don't just have to parents are very often just one parent who's taking care of them. There could be other people that you could turn to, who were officially recognised and and supported as being godparents. Another example is elderly care, which is going to be an increasing issue. As we go forward,

Often, what happens is that you have a bunch of different siblings or children. Your grandchildren and somebody ends up being the one who is taking the branch of the caregiving have out. If that person got old, caregiving allowance to take care of an elder, so you could say yeah. This sibling is going to be the one who we'll get so much money a week was responsible for the curtain. I, like the idea of sort of extent in our idea of marriage, so that the way that we do care in a lot of current societies is, as I said, either we have this kind of market. Mechanism, where you're paying for it or you're, buying at or you're selling it, or else we say, ok we're going to have a squad of professional people who are going to provide care teachers, doctors, medical elderly workers, etc. And I think really good? We need to have more of that. We need to have more support for people who are providing that kind of care, but often the way that care plays

it's not so much in I'm a professional and I'm going out and I'm professionally giving here to anybody who shows up who needs to be cared for, but shows up in these kinds of close relationships between an individual person whose carrying on an individual person who's being cared for. And I think obviously we should have more support for just the professional carers. But I think if we had more support for individual people to carry, that would be an important thing to have two. And we do things to encourage that. Another thing is just the physical geography, the fact that were so mobile, the fact that so often were living across the country from the people that we care for I'm trying to figure out. How could we bring people together literally or are there technological things that we could do to try to bring people together even when they are not in that face to face propinquity that would allow individual people to care for other individually,

Here's another idea, a nice idea, which is that you could have a grandmother core when some people have actually tried to do this in preschoolers, so you'd have the pre school teachers who are trained as were instituting. universal preschool, but you need a lot of people to just look after three and four year olds, so haven't. If you had a designated grandma who would be making as much money as she water she was working in Walmart could be designated grandfather too, and that all wouldn't be the role of being on the train professional teacher. The role would be the role of being a grandparents stories about what it was like when you are young, giving ideas about the past and there's a lot of evolutionary work. Now that suggest that really is the function of that extra twenty years of life that we humans have. So that would be another example where

children could get an extra care, but it would be one terror for each cluster, where you could imagine those specific personal relationships development. So I think that more imaginative, we could think of a lot of examples like that that help address societal level as well as at an individual level, and one of the other things that I've been thinking about. A lot is the idea of thinking about different kinds of human intelligence. So, when you think about intelligence, when people talk about intelligent, this is maybe a little bit unfair, but not entirely catholic. We tend to think about the thirty five year old psychologists, store philosopher who is sitting in his office writing about intelligent, and we tend to act as if that's the sort of peak of intelligence and everything else is just kind of building up to that peak intelligence as your child and become an hour. Are falling off as you're an adult and become an elder

It doesn't make very much sense from an evolutionary perspective pride I mean if it was so great to be the thirty five year old psychologist. We could all of the intelligence of a thirty five euro, and instead, what I've been arguing is that there is a trade off an intrinsic trade off between different kinds of intelligence and the intelligence of childhood. This kind of wide, ranging exploration and playing creativity, really trade, soft from the intelligence of adulthood, which is about getting resources acting effectively? Narrowing your focus to particular tasks particular problems, and that again is different from the intelligence of Elder hood, which is a kind of care and teaching intelligence, the intelligence that you need to be able to care for someone they intelligence. You need to be able to give up some of your own ambitions and pass on information to the next generation. One other thing that I think is really interesting about.

here is that it involves this real tension between your own autonomy and the autonomy of the person that your caring for so again, if you were just involved in a market, you have a social contract. You say: ok were equal exchangers all do this view. You do this for me, but when you're caring for someone there's this really interesting problem that you have, which is you want them to able to autonomously take care of themselves? But you know that they can only do that if your caring for them- and I think anybody whose care relationship, whether its caring for a child caring for an elder caring for someone who's ill, is constantly having to negotiate right? How do I let them make their own decisions? How do I let them figure out? What's best for them and at the same time, I'm thinking, but you know they're not in a position where they can completely decide what they're going to do. I need to be able to set aside

my own goals for the goals of another person and also help that person to articulate their own goals themselves. That's really challenging thing to do is have really challenging companies thing to do, but it's the thing that we have to do and we care for people and I think there is some reason to think that as we get older and our own goals and design errors and demands seem to get too now that we're more conscious of being able to do this kind of care and transmission. So I think it's a much richer picture of human intelligence when we recognise that there is this intelligence of childhood, that's about exploring figuring out, what's going on in the world innovating doing new things and then there's also this intelligence of L. heard. That's about carrying teaching passing on information, and, of course, those in the middle are able to do all of those things that are able to explore unable to care. But of course, there are also doing the work

the world are actually going out and doing the things that we have to do is adults where we do have to be focused. We do have to accomplish goals. Go. You were talking about this kind of structural ideas. You had four scaling caring and at one of them was this fantastic stupendous idea of mobilizing grandparents and then again, and then he went on to talk about this special kind of intelligence that gets magnified among the elderly. When I listen to talk, oh about the structural change it. I was thinking about kind of how I approach this in that I'm not policy thinker, I'm not a politician. I really just trying to appeal to people's self interest to get them to do things that will be good for them. Add also good for the world and when we talk about carrying, I automatically kind of interpolate back to the thirty five year old version of myself, pre any experience with meditation,

Eddie selfish Guy, really just looking for self optimizing tools, etc, etc, not necessarily looking to be better at carrying per se. I think what that person was missing was that caring, even though its hard- and I say this- is apparent in the sun of elderly parents who require some care and die understand, the caring can be wrenching and frustrating and all that, but it in Use is a life with so much more happiness and meaning that I was missing out on as a thirty five year old, and so as as it seems you talk, I think there is a parallel a project here. On the one hand there is yes, I think we should structurally try to scale carrying as much as possible. I also think culturally, we should just be making the case to people that there is such a thing is enlightened self interest. And that the last year in your own head with your head up your own, but the here you are likely to be yeah. I mean I think it's one of

The paradox is that if you asked most people, what's the thing in your life that gives your life meaning. What's the thing that makes you happiest? What's this That is most profound. Where have been the you know, the kind of deepest moral decisions that you ve had to me. What most people talk about is their relationships to their children, their relationships to their families, their relationships to their parents. To their spouses, and yet, if you read philosophy. For example, when I wrote my book, the philosophical baby, I looked through the nineteen sixty seven encyclopedia of philosophy, and you could read the thousand pages of the nineteen sixty seven encyclopedia of philosophy and think that you, reproduced by a sexual clung, you have no idea that we had children. I think there were seven references to children in

no fewer than there were two angel in me, a thousand pages of the encyclopedia philosophy. So I think it's been really striking that these relationships and these practices like caring for children, that are the things that people find meaning and happiness and satisfaction and are so unreasonable from the philosophical traditions and even from the spiritual traditions. So I think spiritual traditions have often used the analogy of caring for children, but so often boast, philosophy and theology have been pursued by celibate man they're the ones. I've been writing about its element, man who retreated from the rest of the world. I think taking those relationships seriously, taking care of a child seriously, not just as something that kind of shows up in a lifestyle section of the paper as how to

Here's, how you should parent but saying these are really deep, profound relationships and activities there, not just something that should show up in the lifestyle section. I think that would be really what and cultural shift and maybe, as a wider range of people are involved in caring for children as men have become. Are involved in caring for children and caring for elders that competition will start happening in abroad away, but I do find it a bit frustrating that the whole conversation about caring for children for exam what is so oriented around fixing up your house sore doing some other how to and the real debt of that relationship in those experiences I think, gets lost again taking their children is just like taking her elders, its frustrating and its two years and its a difficult in all sorts of ways, but it's also deep. It's also profound. It's also a very important part of what makes us

and that's not just parents taken care of children, but just our relationship with next generation in general is one of the things that makes us human, more. My conversation with Alison Gothic, read after this despite cast, is sponsored by better help online there. we talk about better help. A lot on this show, and this month were discussing some of this stigmas around mental health, regular listeners. that all of us humans have emotions and we need tools to help us regulate them, not avoid them. Just like we take care of our bodies by eating you Tricia's Lee, we can do the same for our minds by going to therapy. I can personally say that their feet is a tool help me many many times in my day to day life better help is customized

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download the verbal up and find your vacation home, Slash vacation home today. What's that the baby's for a second. There are many angles I want to pursue from your book. Let's start with this: notion that children and babies learn at a very interesting way, and there might be something that we can learn from how they learn and you didn't expect that really illuminated this. Can you talk about that? So I've been collaborating with a bunch of people in artificial intelligence. I'm part of the bricklayer I research group, while whether developmental psychology be collaborating with people in a well. It's because one of the things that we realized is that, if we're going to have machines that are capable of sophisticated things are going to have to learn and beauty

babies are the best learners that we know of the universe and what is really basic. Foundational problems comes up, and I that people- and I talked about is what's called this- explore exploit tradeoff. So the ideas you want a system, that's going to try to solve a problem, find a new solution, developing new hypothesis, but you also want systems that will act effectively. That will make decisions that will do things out in the world. Both of those things are necessary for intelligence, but the trouble is there's this kind of intrinsic trade off, but exploring widely thinking of lots of different things, considering lots of different options and being able to settle in on the option that actually the best option and in computer science they talk about this kind of trade off all the time. So, if you're spending a lot of time, thinking about solutions that are very different from the

that you currently have you might be wasting a lot of time. Thinking about things that aren't gonna, actually help you very much, and you might think, while you ll be better off just making little tweaks to what you are already doing and try and see if that works better. But if you just me little twigs to what you are doing? There might be a much better solution, that's much further away! That's really different from what we are currently doing. And if you're doing is just tweaking the way that you currently are you're, never gonna find that much better solution. So there's this real trade off and in computer science, the solutions that trade off is often start out, exploring and then exploding so start out by looking at the big broad parameters. Are the problems start out trying to see what's going on in this world in general and then narrow into ok? What can I actually do? What's the best answer to this problem, and I think you can see that explore first exploit later and restructure in things like brainstorming and a lot of practice

is that we have when we want to be both creative and innovative and effective at the same time, and my argument is that childhood is really evolutions way of solving that export swipe problem. So the idea is that by having a protected childhood, we have a period where we can explore. We can try lots of different options. We can do different things because we're protected, and this is the flip side of the caregiving we. is talking about. The caregiving is so important because it allows a new generation of children to explore. So right, that's out very theoretical, so what we did was we did an experiment that It's based on the idea of what color approach avoid learning. So here's how the experiment goes. You have a little box and if you put the right thing on the box, then you'll get stickers. It will light up, but you put the wrong thing on the box and you don't get stickers and touchy lube stickers and you get to decide. Should I try this or not and this is a nice example where there's a trade off. If I try it, then I'm gonna find

whether or not that block is really rewarding or not. But of course, if I try it, turns out that it's the risky one. It's, though one that makes me loose, dickers I'm gonna lose and what happens with grownups is the after. They ve tried a couple of blocks. They stop trying things that are now So what happens is after they try a couple blocks. They decide. Ok, I know what the role is. Its strength, ones are good and, and spotted ones are bad. and they just never try the spotted ones. But of course, if you think about it, it might that may be. You know the green, spotted ones actually are good, even if the red spot him ones are bad and you know to find that out? If you don't actually trot and we think that a lot of disorders like anxiety, disorders, phobias, things like that- seem to have this kind of structure right, so you get on the plane, you have a terrible experience on the plane and then

you develop if you're, fine and you'll never get unplanned again, but most of the time, if you just have managed to go on, try you would have found out that actually, it's not so bad. So what we did was we did this kind of task with four year olds in seven year olds and grown ups, and what we found is lots of. Other studies had found is the grown ups gets stocking, what's called a learning trap, so they won't explore when they should. They won't get the information they need to really solve the task. But, interestingly, the four year olds didn't so the four year olds were much more willing to risk losing something in order to get information, and I get off you know any fire all I've. I've just spend tat several months with my eighteen month, old, grandson, that's essentially, all they do all came home, is try things and see. What's going to happen, even if it's gotta have bad outcomes, Do you think about a busybody for great eighteen months old toy antibiotics and all the miserable phases, Egypt, Prince buttons and turn things, and then things happen so the four year olds,

just want to know what what's gonna happen. If I put this block on and the result is that actually learn how the machine works much better than the adults doing so. because they're willing to risk losing something to find out more about how the world works there actually better at learning, especially learning things there not obvious that are more subtle worth stranger, then be added are we and others have a bunch of tasks. Now that show that same pattern, you know, most of the time grown ups are better exploit intelligence than children. Some ass to the time you give grown up so tat. They ll do better than children, but on these tasks that really require you to explored the innovative to think of an alternative that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise, to be able to take risks to get that outcome. Then you see the children, can actually be better than the adults and a lot of the things that we think of ass bogs from the export perspective,

like being random in noisy, both literally and metaphorically, and variable and doing lots of different kinds of things being impulsive playing instead of working being insatiably curious. All those are things that are not necessarily advantages. If you just want to act as quickly and effectively as you can, but the word vantages, if you want to explore as much as you can- and those are all things that we Ass, he was told her. Those are all things that are characteristic of children, there's a really beautiful, very, very simple task. That shows this is true, even with rats. So if you think about psychology, the absolutely canonical psychology experiments, he put the rat in the maze and it goes down one arm of the man and there's a shark goes down the arm in the maze and nothing happens, and then, of course the

never go down the arm of the maize where there was the shock. That's absolutely classical psychology minor one. But again, if you think about this from the perspective of things like anxiety or phobias, you can see why that might be a disadvantage because maybe the shocking more maybe there's cheese at the end of that maize, maybe the world has changed and if you never go down at arm. You're, never gonna find out. Two things have changed, and the fascinating result is that, although this is Psych one or one for grown up rats, if you look at young rats, you look at adolescent rats and bigger at its just. The opposite survey prefer to go to the arm of the maize where, There's the sharp seems really bizarrely. Why would that be? But of course the reason is you're getting information there and you're not getting information in the other arm of the maize. We're nothing happens and again, I think, if you think about your for your hosts often end up not to mention your teenage, they often end up doing things just to see what will happen?

but there's another twisted this which gets back to our conversation about caregiving and that twisted Really lovely experiment recently showed that this was true with four year old humans as well. Is it they'll do that, but only from others present. So if the caregiver is present is around, then will explore even the negative option, but not if a caregiver isn't that this is true for the rats, as well as for humans, having a sense that were in the safe environment where being cared for has is incredible advantage of letting us go explore? So I think it's important that these two things are two sides of the same coin: the children, the babies and grandmothers, but we now come to a caregiver, the parents, the people were taken care of the children and the children themselves between them are allowing this tremendous human capacity for innovation and exploration. I've million questions I want to talk.

Out what we grownups can learn from how kids are learning and what changes we could make to tap that. But before I do that this thing you just said about how kids more comfortable, doing the exploring if there is a supportive grown up near by. I believe I have heard that concept referred to as ego come. George, I think it's an idea that around in lots of different traditions and arguments by the way I just did a peace along a say in the Wall Street Journal about a fantastically interesting new study that just come out in nature. Neuroscience reviews that looked a lot of different kinds of evidence and wanted suggest is that having this nurturing environment actually extend your brain development. So what seems to happen is that children who have what's called Every child experiences signals that caregiving is not available, grow up to quickly he puberty earlier. They even seem to get their addled teeth earlier, their brains, maturity

adult state earlier, and you might think. Oh well, that's good! If you have your brain grow up faster, but it turns out, they need Some really good having a longer period of exploration and childhood is actually really good, especially if you're gonna, be in an environment that relies on amending letter. So let's talk practice. well, if you are there any actionable nuggets that can be extracted from this learning, you ve done about how babies and children learn. Yes, of course, it's a big question that everybody always ask is how can we apply this to grown ups, and I think it's really important to say: look that exploit intelligent. Is absolutely crucial right. We couldn't feed their children unless we able to actually have a specific goals and focus

our attention and go out and make those kinds of things happen. So we need to be able to have both sides of the coin. We need to be able to focus and plan do all those things, but we also need to be able to have this kind of broader, wide, ranging exploration, and I think we can get some clues from the children about the kinds of circumstances that allow them

so get back to the point about caregiving feeling is, if you're in a safe environment, where nothing is going to necessarily depend on what you do in the next minute. That's an example of something that seems to be one of the tools for this kind of explanation and being able to pull yourself out of the planning acting moved into the other modes. That seems to be something that helps having new information, something like just trying to master a new skill, but you ve, never mastered before puts you back in the position of being the child puts you back into a position. Beginners man- and I have argued that very relevant to this podcast meditations seems to do that. So I think it's fascinating, though the way meditation works is that you are

wake alert. Your brain is really active, especially if, like good meditating, you ve had a big part of tea before you to sit tat but you're not moving and you're paying attention Your breath you're not planning unit, going out and doing all the things you do when you act in the world- and I have argued that both these function and the phenomenology. The experience is like what you get with children. So what happens is instead of just doing that kind of narrow local search for a solution? There is a kind of paradox which is not trying to find a solution, can actually open. You ought to more possibilities than you would otherwise have

and there is a certain amount of evidence that this kind of broader plasticity, as in our scientists, say this ability to change what you're doing this ability to think more broadly, I mean I think, it's fascinating. The context for that is not actually tried to do since so taking at least some time when you're not trying to do things can actually help you to find a broader range of solutions, a broader range of ways of thinking about the world in solving things, and I think, if you even think of they experience especially of things like open awareness, meditation. I think that's a lot like what it's like to be a baby that sense that you're, ok everything that's going on around you that you're, seeing all the shadows on the wall. Your hearing, the sound of the birds in the background, and no only when we exploit mode. We added all that out of our experience, we don't take in all the formation, that's going on around us, because it would be terribly distraught.

every we're trying to accomplish a particular ended, a pretty you in time, but what we can do is put ourselves in a position in which we have this broader, more open, really friendship to the world, and I think there are other things to do the same thing. There's a lovely work by my colleague decker countenance. I don't know if you have him on, he would be a great person have we have. We have heard he's a friend Mps Gregoire, his fantastic right, so dockers, whereupon eyes very similar, so the state that you get into when you're, in a state of all, when you're among the red words or when you have a sense, that your personal self has shrunk and the world has expanded, and I think both his feelings in those functions are very much like what you see in young children when seen babies, so babies are sort of in that state of all pretty much all the time I mean they're, fuzzy and miserable, but a lot of the time if you hang out with a baby, are you hang out with this reenrolled your experience,

as you watch them just look at those eyes and you'll realize waiting there actually seeing everything that's going on around them, not just the little tiny fragment the icy waters Did I say in one of my boxes that you go to get a pint of milk at TAT, seven eleven and if you are grown up you know you walked in those four blocks and you have no, I you're blind to what's going on. Try doing that same walked with a for Europe and suddenly realized. Oh wait a minute. This is incredibly exciting. Bearer dogs. There are pizza flyers. There are things that you can wait all back and forth. Look there's a little dandelion and it takes you about in Times is long to get to the corner, but you realise that even just those couple of blocks are incredibly rich and full of things to learn about in full of things experience so didn't being with a small child. I think gives you a chance to both experience this kind of broad awareness, and also to experience these deep emotions of caregiving at the same time, so justice

I can sum this up. If we are looking to learn, we grown ups are looking to learn from our children and babies. Learn there are things we can do when working group aberrations or for working on our own. We mean have safe periods, time where any ideas, fine and we can jar ourselves out of- normal sort of super focused exploitive mindset, which is useful. We needed if we're going to get the milk at seven eleven, but we also, if we want to live in use our work with more creativity and innovation. We also want to have access to this other mindset, and so, as you were saying, they ways that we can do. That would be the having brainstorm peerage, where everything's kosher, to say, also doing meditation or putting ourselves in a position of awe those ways that we can access what children and babies are access, naturally thanks devolution. That would be the I've been. I don't know where we're going to be able to do

might as well as vigilant in babies do but at least I think that capacity is there and weak also recognize that, even though it might seem like it's not productive in the moment, its productive in the long run and by the way that I would add that hanging out with major factors other than a regulation. You know it sure thing. You know I I I know you're a fan of Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher you told me before we start a rolling here that you, I didn't notice that you use the ten percent happier app and that you, like Josephs, guided meditations, and I was having a conversation with him a few years ago. I was complaining to him about writing and how much I hate writing, and he was really urging me too in use my writing day with a lot more meditation that

when I'm in this situation of the internal clamp down this scene, I gotta get it down, got a bold. Those through this problem is like doubt that's when you should do a nice long said to put your brain back in the mode of openness, and often an answer will come, may not be the answer you were looking for, but something will come at. I've really found that to be very, very Well, I think in General- and this is an interesting peace that come out of here, I work as well as will sound This is the opposite end of the world from Jersey, but I think it's actually relevant. We have a project that we're doing with robots, and it turns out that if you train robots with someone just playing with, say a bunch of things on a desktop. They actually end being more robust than if you train them to imitate somebody a couple,

the goals that you want the robot to accomplish. So let's say you want the robot to take screws and put them in a box right, something sort of any like we're about to be able to do. The problem is, if you just show them hears screws coming into a box. they'll learn how to do that specific thing. But if you move the box, Why are you put rascals instead of steel screws than they can't figure out what to do, whereas it turns out that if what you do is instead show them a grown up or in our experiments, even a child just give them the screws on the boxes inside just play with these things, and then you give out information the robot. You end up with a much more robust, understand it, and you can start to see. that is right when you play what you do is try lots of different kinds of things. You try moving the box over to one side, you try it with different kinds of skirts, and that suggests that this act of play, which is something that again children, do come. This continued and again it is kind of a paradox right, even though the essence of play

that you're, not working you're, not trying to do something that, but by not trying to accomplish the goal you actually can get to a place where you are going to be more effective at accomplishing about, but even though we sort of recognize it is still very hard to find time for right, it's hard to actually Fourth yourself, when you have a deadline or when you're trying to get something written to say our I hears a sensible thing to do to stop happened something else. I must say one of the things that I've discovered- and this is a particularly wonderful thing about in your grandparents, as opposed to being apparent, is as grandparent. I can just say you know what I'm just gonna go and hang out play with my grandchildren for the next couple of hours and I have discovered that by having a rule that says any time, there's a chance to play the grandchildren, no matter what my deadlines are, no matter what the reviews are. paper once I'm gonna go comply with my grandchildren. Instead, that's actually

really helpful in terms of life as well as work having that space where you're not in the narrow range of work, is actually really helpful for being able to shake yourself up and do something else and again he has his classic going for a long walk playing a musical instrument bring something that isn't the thing that you're trying to do. There is wonderful alarm term again that comes from my eye, which is the local optimum mine. You know if you use that talked about that, so The local minimum of the local maximum in the idea is that when you're trying to do something, often you can be in a situation in which any small change that you make is going to make things worse. So you just end up being stuck right, but if you made a big change, then you could actually make things better. the idea of a local optimum. So what happens? If you get to a point where giving where you are now? This is the best thing that you could do, but if you did something completely different

It actually end up doing better and one of the challenges for understanding intelligence is. How do we take ourselves out of these local oftener when we ve become really practiced in good it doing one particular thing, for example, it becomes very easy and national to think that's the thing to do and just doing something that were not good at doing something. That's really different from the things that we do every day can be the sort of thing that will kick you out of that local after them and give you a sense of it. alternatives. I think travelling. We can't do that as much as we used to in the last couple of years for travelling is another example of something that just kicks us out of our local optimum, and, I think, gives us a lot of the same kind of experience again. Children have so you know my too world every time he goes into a new road like he's gotta trigger their assets. I made it An exciting and everything's. Bear that you haven't before and locked. You know, there's a light and

there. Isn't there. He books to pull out of the book is, but I think from adults, where we know more and we understand more. Getting that sense of novelty is harder and doing something like travelling is another kind of classic example of what we can do to keep ourselves out of those local optimum. Much more, my conversation without and gotten rid after this think of the last time you bought something to wear someday decorate your house something for your family or friends. What, if each time you made a purchase, you got a little somethin back with racket in you can racket in is DS artist way to shop in save online racket in as an online shopping platform. That rewards you for shopping with racket and you can get cash back it over thirty five hundred stores and every single category, like fashion beauty, electronics, homosexuals, travel, dining subscription services and so much more membership is

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Sir. Speculative investment with risk of loss- I trust capital incorporated, does not provide legal investment or tax advice and so with qualified legal investment or tax professional. I want to ask you about me you mentioned as before, but I want to get up and go back and go deeper on it. You said that certain types of meditation, in particular, sort of like open awareness, a choice, US awareness, meditation where you're just aware of whatever is happening right now, stuff that normally you would too now. You said that that similar to what it's like to be a baby and in your book, the gardener in the carpenter evolve chapter where you talk about this lantern consciousness and well, I'm gonna shut up and let you hold forth on it because it so

pressing this connection between the lantern consciousness and meditation and babies, and so please yeah. So we are a little bit about even the neuroscience of attention and what know about the neuroscientist attention. Is that the way is it typically works in greater, Is that when we pay attention to something that part of our brain becomes more plastic again, his inner assigned to say becomes more tangible, weaken taken the information from what were attending to use it to alter that little part of our brain, but at the same time the other parts of our brain actually kind of get shut down. There are what are called inhibit. Or in chemicals that sheep, the rest of our brain from being after this kind of like our brain is saying. Ok, most of your brain is not broke, don't fix it just leave it bay and just change. This little part is relevant to the tasks that are trying to solve now and there's evidence for monkeys, for example, that if you give them a towel

like where it turns out that what they listen to well, if they press a button when they hear something, they'll get a drink of juice or if they pressed the button when they see something you'll get a drink of juice that actually their brains change differently, depending on what they pretended to. So, if your hearing something and you get to reward, then you can actually literally see that the neurons they auditory part of your brain change, whereas if you're getting the reward, because something visual than the neurons in your visual cortex change. Ok, so that's a really nice elegant story about how the kind of attention that we typically have saddles witches classically refer to a spotlight attention works, so attention seems to work like the spotlight

It lets you see one particular thing and then everything else around it gets dark. But when you look at baby monkeys and when you also look at baby humans, you see something quite different. So what you see is that those chemicals that make your brain, more plastic, more tangible babies, brains, are just saturated and those chemicals, and we know that the baby's brains are much more plastic. They do much more than the outbreak and not only that, but they dont depend on this kind of attention. So if you just have a baby monkey and just play a lot of complicated sounds the baby monkeys bring, will change in the light of incentives for the adults. That will only happen if there's something that, like a reward, that depends on their sense. So, what that's a chess is that the way to bring starts out its- really picking up information from everywhere around right. It's not just picking up information is relevant to its particular gulls ring, starting out

finding things that are new or fascinating, or that have patterns and its design to pull in that kind of information- and I think, if you think about what it feels like to have a brain- that's like that- like this kind of lantern of consciousness, rather than a spotlight, so your pulling in all sorts of information about everything. That's going on around you, rather than just focusing on the thing, that's most important to one of the things I say. As you know, we say that babies, bad at paying attention. What we really mean is that their bad, not paint Will there be had at not paying attention to that little piece of slots on the ground or that sound of that airplane that weigh up high I haven't noticed ia and that kind of attention again is not great.

If you are trying to solve a particular task, but it may be just what you need if you're picking up information from the world around you and there's a beautiful work by my colleague so as TED and others that show that babies pay most attention to the things that will teach them amongst. So instead of paying most attention to the things that will you don't get them the most reward in the most juice, the things they pay the most attention to wear the things that have the most information that will tell them the most about the world around and that's a very different kind of attention and the attention that were used to as adults, and I think the experience is this kind of lantern consciousness. It's this sense that everything around do is

emanated, which again, at least in my quite amateur practice, is the striking experience that at least certain kinds of meditation seem to come with, where the internal monologue is DE emphasised, and then the birds and the light on the wall become vivid in wiping Joe in ordinary experience. We so when I originally started king about this, these different kinds of consciousness. I had a wonderful letter from someone who was a store detective and he said what he would do was just sit on a balcony pie. Over the store floor and then look around to make sure that everything was fine shoplifting and he said the only people who ever saw him where the children So he said: he'd walk along there'd, be the grown ups who were concentrating on during the things that they wanted to do, and it was the fire. All too would look up and wave and notice that someone was standing up there on the balcony, and you know my eighteen month all grounds.

Here's the aeroplanes way before I hear the airplane T notices every possible airplane, that's going, but so I think that kind of consciousness is a very different kind of consciousness than the consciousness that we usually have and Tito aside from everything else, it's just a very satisfying and marvelous way of being. And I think we have reason to believe that it may be an index of our brains being more plastic, getting us out of the rights of our everyday experience, recognising that the world is broader than we think you know something that I thought about this down. I've talked about this a bit with my friend, Michael Pollen, about some of these experiences as well is in you might think. Well what is this a hallucinate shouldn't. You know, so it feels good. You have this feeling that you now you're at one with the world and your ego is disappearing, but is that just you know you do a bunch of where things like sit in one place for a long time, and then you get a strange feeling or

take care of a baby and you love the baby, and you feel as if there's no ground rules between yourself and the baby. Is it just a hallucination and what I think is it's just the opposite. I think it's when you're in those states, they are actually at least for a few minutes. You're, actually seeing the reality, and the reality is that we are separate from the world around us. We aren't separate from other people are hallucinate She is the hallucination that there's this little person inside of our heads hues.

And your lesson, the self that's the most important thing in the world and that we should be listening to her all the time I now that's a very useful who is nation has probably the hallucination that that helps us to get through the world, but I think when we can at least have those moments of not experiencing that self, experiencing a lack of boundaries between ourselves and the world, a lack of balance between ourselves and other people, I think, just as a cold blooded scientist, that's actually a more accurate picture of the way the world works and our place in it. Then the picture that we usually have. I love that just in terms of flashlight verses, lantern consciousness. It strikes me having done a few meditation retreats that if I'm understanding this correctly, you and often in essence, are taught

you use a flashlight consciousness like honey and on the sensations of the breath, and then you can drop it a few days in and you get the lantern it's like you use one to get to the other. Does that make sense yeah? I think that makes perfect sense and that's also what the neurosciences think suggest. So, one of the things it's interesting about meditation practice here for grown ups. You can't just sort of turn it off. You can't just so to say our I'd on I'm going to have this lantern consciousness. I'm gonna get rid of my everyday attention because that the everyday spotlight is so deeply part of the way that we work in the world and I think exactly a way of describing the way meditation works. Is it uses that attention so it uses? That has to be that you have to attend to allow you to get this broader understanding of what's going on around you, and there is some evidence that that's true in terms of the narrow sense as well. So it's is

resting paradox, which is training your attention, so that you can turn it on things like just what your breath is actually seems to allow you to give up that attention later on, and I think when you're meditating, you kind of have that experience are again Missus, my amateur experience, you kind of how this alternation between your focusing allowed in its even pretty effort, fall to make sure that you dont wander off. You have to pull yourself back, and then you get these moments when you're, not effort full anymore you're. Just experience unworldliness, broader lantern, like where it reminds me a little bit. This does using its fields, artificial, enforced and torture is sometimes under a tree were using the flashlight

no by just honing and on the breath or whatever you using it to ultimately get to the lantern- reminds me that game that I don't know if you play when you were a kid. Were somebody pulled your arm against your side and they tell you tries hard. You can to lift your arm up, but they're, holding your down, and then you do it for ninety seconds or whatever they say. Ok, now stop trying to lift your arm and they take their hands way at your arm just floats up, because you ve done all of this work and at some point it pays off in an extra ordinary experience. Yeah honey. The basic kind paradox is that you have to work and intend to be able to not working at hand and the opposite paradoxes. Teacher you have to be able to not be productive in order in the long run to be productive, but I think it's interesting that if you look both that computer science and evolution, they both have exactly that problem right and exactly that kind of solution said both in computer science and in

mission. One seems to happen is that you have these capacities for play for curiosity, for broader exploration and in the long run they actually allow you to thrive, survive and thrive better, but you have to know pay attention to the long run in order to be able to have those sure run advantages, and sometimes I think what I'm talking to people in Silicon Valley and so forth. I think our culture in general. This is kind of funny contradiction where people's they also now, professor gonna, tell me what I need you to play right or people will say, What do I need to do to make my children play and be creative and curious right? There must be some formula that I can have to make myself be more creative and, of course, the whole point of the EU have the formula that its by giving up the formula and the intention in the goal that you can get this kind of broad experience and area,

and gaiters. I suggest that in the long run it will do you guide. It will enable you to have more possibilities, but I think in the short run, you should just do it, because it's such great thing to take. Yes, he asked. Will we have a few minutes left? But I want to give you a chance to talk about what you probably wanted to talk about in the first place, which is the central as I understand it, the central thesis of your book, the gardener and the carpenter, which is this whole industry. This grown up around parenting, but often the modern conception of parenting are profoundly wrong. You say so I don't know that's too much to bite off at the end of an interview, but I'd be interested to hear you say a little bit about it at least well, actually very relevant. What we were just talking about, because I think the parenting idea, which is relatively recent ideas

and even the very word only started showing off in the seventies and United States. I think that's a very good example of something where turning it into a goal directed activity, turning it into a kind of work really distorts than practice really distorts what it's all about. So

parenting picture is that what you need to do when your apparent is to make a child that has particular kind of characteristics, make a child is gonna, be smarter, make a child who's gonna be more successful, make a child is gonna, be happier, and I think that's just completely the wrong picture, if you think about it from the perspective of the intelligence of Exploration and the intelligence of care. Instead, what you're, trying to do in your apparent this is the metaphor about the gardener- is to create a rich, nurturing environment in which these children, who are you know, fantastically good at exploring learning. Nothing we can do is gonna, make them better, intrinsically at learning there really designed to learn. What we can do is give them rich, nurture space in which they can use their capacities for exploration and learning, and I think, even more profoundly, if you think about those care cases, it's just intrinsically meaningful and

new again and an important part of human life to be able to do that began to get back to my point about our hallucinations against people sometimes say, and if you think about the experience of taking care of a child, it's a little carmaker if you're outside it, because you know you see that to the person whose caring for that child that child, like the most amazing one fall terrific interesting. In the entire universe and every it's not your grandchild, you likely to say that hey baby after midnight. I'd like you to be my baby and, of course your first thought is well, that's a hallucination right. It's just because of the biology, but again I think it's the other way round. I think it

when you're in those relationships is when you realise that the truth, which is that every person is uniquely valuable, a uniquely important centre consciousness, uniquely fascinating, uniquely important different from everybody else and marvelous, because their different from everybody and I think it's more like that. It's only in those moments of love and care that you realise that curious about other people. It's pretty hard to recognise that truth about other people for all the billions of people,

But you can realise that truth about other people in that relationship and then at least abstractly. You can say- and you know what that's actually true about other people as well- and I think that's a much more satisfying, liberating reassuring picture of the relationship between parents and children. This picture of general care for another human being, then the picture that this sort of carpenter picture that you have a job to do in the job is to create a child. That's going to come out in a particular way. So, even if could I think you probably can accomplish this end of ok, here's the list of things that I want my child to be like and I'm gonna do. These bunch of ships that I got from the parenting broken here is how the child is can come out. Even if you could do that, you would have defeated the whole point of parenting from an evolutionary perspective, which is to allow each generation to innovate. To do things that are new

to be different from the previous generation, so if you knew how they were going to come out- and you could control that you would have kind of miss, Hold profit of having a new generation of humans. So I think it's part of his general point that we think about. In many different missions that being in the moment, appreciating the profundity of what's happening at this time, and I think again, no experience of caring for children is one of these really deep, profound experiences, but caring for people in general is seeing that as being valuable in and of itself, rather than always trying to think ok, here's this work that I have to do that will have some outcome later on. I think leads to more satisfying experience both for the parents and for their children very quickly. Before we go, can you just

shamelessly plug your book and any other resources that you're putting on in the world, he want people to know about yeah. So the baby is the book. That's about really focusing on some of these philosophical questions about consciousness, the gardener and the carpenter. I've talked about that is well all my books, really trying to summarize years and years and many many many articles by many many people in the scientific community and try to apply them to some of these deep philosophical questions. The book that I'm here, on right now it won't be out for a while is going to be called curious children, wise elders, how intelligence evolves and that's going to have more of this work about caregiving. But if you go to your house and after TAT Com, which is my website, both my academic articles and then things like my TED talk and my while she journal columns are on that website as well, so that a good way to get to,

and some of the more recent essays that I've done? Are there to serve that an easy one stop shop? I should add, by the way, that the packaging to read that you mentioned with as recline the first one that I did on VOX is one of my favorite interests, and that was a really fantastic on. So I highly recommend that as a kind of an inch or two governments well great, thank you so much for doing this pleasure to finally meet you. This was great thanks very much thanks again, two thousand gothic thanks as well to everybody who worked incredibly hard to make the show a two point. Five times a week. melody, Samuel Jars, Gabrielle Sacrament, DJ, cashmere, Justine Davey can buy Maria Maria were tell indent I would would be remiss of. I did not shout out our compatriots over it ultraviolet audio, who do our engineering? Thank you to those guys will see. While I'm stay for a brand new episode, we're going Deep DARPA, where the teacher, Nay Matthew, Brenda

What are our Matthew Hepburn? When I tell people on a meditation teacher, I get asked a lot of the same questions. Can I meditate lying down? Yes, what? If Ivan Ich go ahead? Sky if I sit for long enough, can I transcend space and time time? Yes, but not space. If your fan of ten percent up here. You could probably answer a lot of these questions yourself, but my hunches. That despite everything you know about meditation, there's still parts your life that feel anything, but mindful it's time to change that together. we're going to take the insight you get from Dan Harris and double this. Is twenty percent happier the shower Talk to people who, like you, are learning to level up their ability, live, mindfully, you'll, get to eavesdrop on people getting real about the challenges all of us face and you'll hear how, through meditate,

those challenges are transformed. Seeing how someone else goes from stuck to unstuck can be a template for your own breakthrough. So let's get twenty percent, happier, is available exclusively in the ten percent happier out aid stand here. as from ten percent happier you tune in every week to hear I really helpful conversations with some of the leading meditation happiness and mindfulness experts. So what if I told you that they should be ten times, maybe thirty time for making this up but much more impact for when combined with the ten percent happier at on the you get to listen and learn to incorporate the concepts we talk Here, on the show into your daily practice,

to your mind when you mastered the basics of meditation, you can dive deeper into the practice with our singles courses and challenges, The ten percent happier app is available right now to download wherever you get your apps.