This is the ten percent happier Broadcast Dan Harris again. I've always been really intrigue by the buddhist notion of the eight worldly wins dating praise and blame success and failure, joy and sorrow and most relevant for this conversation gain and loss the idea, is that if we learn to relate to these various two sided coins as being like the wind or part of nature, we can develop more equanimity, Visa VIII, life's inevitable ups and downs, vexations and vicissitudes the full catastrophe today. We're gonna talk specifically about the UN's

affable flow of game and loss, the upside and downside of impermanence, and how to deal with this process more effectively. My guess is not actually a doormat teacher, but instead a Pulitzer Prize Winning Writer, who had actually been a fan of for a very long time. She really is, in my opinion, one of the best writers drawing breath on the planet currently shows very cool to meet her, Kathryn shouts is a staff writer at the new Yorker who has a new book called lost and found a memoir which is really about her processing, a huge loss in her personal life and then a huge in and then also musing, in a very compelling way about how to live in a world where this happiness and pain inevitably come mingle, in other words, how to live with contradiction. In this conversation, we talk about how humans experience grief, a gift that you can give to anybody whose grieving why she loved

the cliches that remind us to enjoy the moment, even though they are cliches her broad understanding of the term loss, a category that is she points out, can include both loved ones and your keys, keys, how the key word in lost and found is and and why she says life is a perpetual and machine, and we also talk about some of the insights She has gained from being in a long term, romantic relationship specifically what she had learned about compromise, also just to say this is the first episode of a two part of this week. On the subject of loss on Wednesday, we're gonna talk to a scientist and practising Buddhist, we ve been studying what grief does your brain, and I should also say that the two parties this week is part of a four weeks series we're doing on the show that were calling the mental health reboot

it's the longest and most ambitious series we ve ever done on the show. Each week on Monday, we bring you a series of brand new interviews with Mental Health Morris with personal stories, on everything, from sleep to shame, to grief, trauma and then on wednesdays. We bring on a top notch scientist to help you contextual eyes. The story you ve just heard and to provide some evidence based advice and the last thing before we get started. If you find yourself wanting to put hope to work in your own life, then make sure to check out our meditations from some of our finest teachers about how to cultivate. Hope as a skill search for the hope is a skill, singles pack,

the app to check them out and if you don't have the app you can try it for free today, just download the ten percent happier app wherever you get your apps and, as you may know, May is mental health awareness month. We want to deeply thank and recognize mental health professionals for everything you do for a year's free access to the app and hundreds of meditations and resources go to ten per cent dot com, slash mental health. That's ten percent! All one word spelled out dot com, slash, mental health will get started right after this. There is power in getting to the with the people you love, maybe getting together with your people, means reconnecting with your childhood friends or watching the game with your college teammates or seeing your new baby meet your best friends baby for the first time. One thing is clear today, families don't often live in the same city, let alone have a single place to come home to Verbo knows the best place is with your people. With millions of vacation homes. Your place can be anything from charming mountain cabin or Lakeside Lodge to a city apartment.

for luxury home verbal homes, provide the space and comfort you need to focus on the people who matter visit, verb, dot, com or download. The verbal apt find the perfect vacation home for your people, verbal a place for together this plan cast, is sponsored by better help. One of the big issues I've been working on is protecting myself from burn out. I have a tendency to work too hard and too long? In fact, for many years until quite recently, I worked seven days a week, I've done and you to do a lot of work, understanding. What is driving this and also figuring out how to manage it, because the costs a pretty high, not only to me, but also to the people I work with and also my family and then, of course, since life is a constant exchange with people around you that

acts me and then down you go into what my friend Evelyn AAA calls. The toilet. Vortex therapy has been very helpful in this regard. I can talk to my therapist about both root causes and perhaps, more importantly, dated eight techniques for managing my tendencies. Better help it's customized online therapy that offers video phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anybody on camera. If you don't want to it's much more affordable than in person therapy and you can be matched with a therapist in under forty eight hours. Ten percent happier listeners get ten percent off their first month at better health dot com, slash happier, that's better h, e l, p, dot com, slash happier, Kathryn Schulz welcome to the show thanks so much for having me

I'm a long time fan jealous of your writing ability? I guess the technical term is envious. I learned recently, but yes, you do great work, so really happy to have you on the show? Oh gosh, that's so nice of you thanks. I am also a long time fan of yours. I may not have myself yeah, I'm in pieces myself, but I wouldn't exactly describe as an auto fan oh we're laughing now, but out where to start by talking about something sad, it's interesting, because the inciting event for your book was actually the second thing that happens in the book. The inciting event was the loss of your father, but that was actually predated by the discovery of your future life partner. All of us,

inevitably lose people, but for you, if it really sparked and exploration of loss- and I be curious to get a sense of why and how that process started. Yeah, it's interesting question, so it's funny. You just observed firstly, that the book does not quite operate in chronological order and realize I met my partner and I lost my father, but the book, as you said, opens that's my father and then I move on to meeting my partner, funnily enough, the writing of the book sort of didn't exactly happen in the crowd logical order you might expect either, which is to say that it was not actually that I lost my father and started thinking about the strangeness of the category of loss in general. I'd actually already been thinking about that for a long time. I think I'm kind of drawn to these abstract categories of human experience. My previous book was about error and and all the different kinds of ways that were wrong. So I have been thinking about boy. It's really weird that we have this category, that you know somehow we can put our car keys in it, but

so our religious faith are elections that the people we love like. What a weird and capacious category, and how do we make sense of this? So did I it's been on my mind before my father died, and I had thought about writing it, but never kind of got around to it. It was one of those ideas that just it's like perpetually on the back, and it was only when my father died that I realized right away. Why I couldn't write it before it didn't have the emotional anchor it didn't, have the kind of granite house and the real feeling that it immediately did. After my, their died. So, yes, the inciting event for the book in a sense, is the death of my father, but these ideas have been kicking around for quite a while. For me, I will read you. Act you, because there are a number of really striking passages in the book, but this one pertains to the loss of your father I remember the way my mind absented itself immediately, so that the few cool syllables to which I had access seemed almost to have formed outside of me. So this is it. I remember feeling simultaneously heavy and empty like steel. Safe, would not

inside I remember seeing my little niece place a letter she had written to her grandpa on his chest, where, for all the long moments that I looked at it, it failed to move but what I remember most from those first hours after my father died is watching my mother cradle the top of his bald head in her hand, a wife holding her dead husband without trepidation, without denial, without any possibility of being care for, in return just for the chance to be tender toward him one. Last time it was the purest act of love. I'd ever seen she looked bereft, beautiful unimaginably calm. He did not yet look dead. He looked like my father. I could not stop picturing the way he used to pushes glasses up onto his forehead to read. It struck me right before everything else struck me much harder that I should set them by his bed in case he needed them. It beautifully captures the scene and also just how hard it is for the mind too,

rock this kind of subtraction. So, as you explain in his clear in their passage, that is really it's outweighed the moment of my father's death because he died in the very small hours the night and we got a phone call. But at the moment we all came to be around him, a sort of as soon as that happened and It was an interesting passage to raid. I think in some ways it was a very clear distillation of the challenge of writing. just to summon back on the page for other readers with as much precision as possible, what urban experiences actually like and what the emotions of that experience were lake, and it's a stream and in some ways harrowing and in some ways very honourable

when moving thing to witness death and to witness the dead and in modern life. It actually doesn't happen that often for most of us, so it felt to me like a very important moment to sit with and to let it unfold kind of almost in real time. You know, with the the sort of I almost had glacial pace, but but in a funny way At the first moment of shock after death, there kind of is no time. No time has been ushered out of the room and you're just in there. With this person, you love truly for the last time I'm in there with the reality of death and in there with the reality of grief, including everyone else's grief. I'm not a devout person in the conventional sense, but it felt like a quite sacred moment. How did the grieving unfold for you from there? I know a little bit from having it view, people about the grief process that it doesn't actually unfold in some orderly fashion, even though

talk about the stages of grief. How did it go for you yeah? I mean, I think, that's exactly right. Unfold sounds so neat and grief is more. Like you know, crumple it up, throw it against the all smooth it out again. It does not resemble a process of unfolding very much if ok to me. I you know, I'm I'm not a chaotic person and I am inclined towards order and a little bit inclined towards control and, of course, grief. I actually think in some very important ways up ends that for everyone, any illusions you might have being a controller summarily undone by death in general and and undone all over again by grief, so I often think of grief not as a tie

line steadily unfolding, but as a kind of topography, a landscape you walk through and you don't exactly know where you're going or how long you'll be there. But you certainly know that it's incredibly changeable. I mean this to me. People talk about the stages of grief which isn't wrong. You know- and I think can be emotionally useful for some people some of the time, but it seems to me that there's just different experiences of reef and they kind of lurch for us in one moment and then proceed and then come back up in the way that when you're moving through a landscape, you know there's a river to cross and then you walk a mile, but the river has banned in your crossing the same river. He can or your climbing a mountain and whoops there's another mountain. When you get to the top- and I guess I would say that's what it was like it certainly not unremitting bleeding or unremitting, sorrow one of the things I will try to four says a lot in this book is that I dont really if any state of being to be quite as constant as we think it is. I mean the same is true of love, right of falling in love certainly of marriage, and these are not static. Monochromatic states there very busy in very different

So in the moment, I think probably what I would have said, above all as it on folded. Slowly in hotels feels like it's gonna go on for ever and ever, but in fact go on per se. It changes all the time and that still true today, it's not like I dont- have more and now in my life and grief, come circling back and find me what was helpful for you love, I suppose, first and foremost, although of course it was the memory my father that was so painful and not having him in my life. It was also an incredible bomb and a lot of what what help me move through this crazy topography of grief and my dad was an incredibly joyful prison, just just a brilliant with you know it large and generous personality and, of course- and I knew first and foremost about my dad. That he was not whenever to deny pain or look away from it or be unable to tolerate it, including in the people he loved. But I knew that in all he ever wanted for his daughters was for us to be happy, and I was a kid

the anchor for me to remember that my dad, sometimes in the face of incredibly challenging circumstances, just consistently took the side I have joy and humanity and happiness. So I tried to remember to do that too, but also- and this is of course, the central feature of the book. As you know, I had fallen in love not long before my father, sickened and not barriers. Before he died, and so I had this kind of countervailing forests in my life. That was delightful in many ways and certainly well. My father was dying and after he died incredibly stabilizing. It's a curious fact of my life tat. I lost this

absolute anchor of my family of origin right at the moment that I was making a family of my own, although in some ways- and I read about this in the book- that was a complicated and contradictory set of feelings. I'm also so grateful everyday that I had this kind of steadfast love of my partner during that time. We're going to talk a lot about that process of finding, which is the second part of the book, but just staying in the loser part it sounds like love was helpful in at least two ways. One was finding this life partner. The first thing you reference but just sort of having a lens or a filter over the lens, through which you view the world of love or happiness or joy, and that was a bomb. Do I don't have that yeah. You know I mean in general, I find in hard moments that it is helpful, sometimes to look beyond the south. It's is possible. You know we all sometimes wallow and that's a kind of negative word, but actually it's good to sit with your pain and

sadness in your suffering and whatever, maybe your whining for that matter. Sometimes sometimes it's important do endorse those things, but I do find it is helpful to look up and look out and regard the rest of the world and remember that it's rare and precious and beautiful and were here and we get to accept, incident. That's quite amazing and that there are others who need us. You know to be present to be compassionate and the kind of he'll ourselves that we may help he'll others and This way, so, yes, I think it sounds simple and probably a little trip, they think love of my father and also a love of those around me and commitment to worth taking the side of love in the world. It's not that it diminishes grief. I tend to think of grief as a very pure reflection of love. You know we grieve people and sort of the exact proportion, and in some is in the exact ways that we love them. So it fills me quite natural that love would be the thing that would rescue us from grief and help.

ground arson and remind us of why were sad and that there is a joy behind that and also an inevitability behind that in part of learning, to live and to be grown is learning to accept that we are finite. We do not go on for ever and ever and nor to the people. We love were their practical things that helps like a grief councillor, for example. So it's interesting, I did not talk to any if the nationals, while I was grieving- although I have in the past about other things, and been very, very grateful for that, but that's not to say that there weren't counselors in my life in the sense of very wise people and various practical things that did help my mother was tremendous. To be honest, every time I talked to my mother, I was like, borderline. A shame of my own grief that, because he wasn't grieving, but because your sisters like tower of fortitude, which pretty one who knew my mom, it's that no wait how you would think to describe her. You know she was and is incredibly sweet. Incredibly, thoughtful very patient, but it was interesting to me after my dad died to see that you know she had lost her beloved of this.

The two years, her husband of forty nine years- and she was just try and us, and I learned a lot of watching how she navigated her own grief, and my partner, as I said, was wonderful and eat its interest, know a lot of people in my life. I feel really rose to the occasion of being with me and grief, which is a hard thing. I really admire people who, in the face of someone else's grief, do not look away and now try to change the subject. My father in law was and remains really just wonderful. You know he says my father's. quite often, which is a real gift. I think you can give to people who are grieving her just say you know I thought of your father and x day for what reason. You know he would often tell me how much he still, MRS his own father, and there is a kind of comfort and solidarity and that so, to the extent that practical I mean it's practical in that I didn't hide my grief, which I don't mean to suggest. I was blubbering in

The grocery store or in professional meetings through whatever, but I was opened with those I loved, and I think that, if you can be that that's helpful, it enables other people to see you and to help you and to realize what you need, and I think, a lot of people given the chance are very compassionate in those moments. A great I do want to read you one more passage from you if you're, okay with it, sir, this kind of goes back to something I asked before that are still curious about which is how hard it is to process the removal of something that was right there. In particular somebody like your father as he was to you, how you

some way saw your own world through his eyes. At times you do a better job of describing this than I do swell revert to you hear what I had been missing about. My father was life as it looked filtered through him, held up and considered against his inner lights, but the most important thing that had vanished when he died. I realized in that incident is wholly unavailable to me life as it looked to him life. We all live it from the inside out. All of my memories can't add up to a single moment of what it was like to be him and all of my loss pails beside his own. I guess it's the first part of that that is interesting to me. I heard this phrase once a writer described somebody else as the theatre for my actions. I think about this a little bit with my parents there so live with. My dad is had some cognitive declines. Who is not my dad and the way you

to be it's almost like things that happened to me didn't really happen until I told him that it happened, and I wonder if that resonates with you, it does for sure I think its natural for children to feel like their parents are, in some sense their audience and there affirmation- and it's funny- I have a little each month old daughter now and it's choose you. the thing and then she looks at a site. Did you see that an end? I think that's a pretty natural parent child relationship and I think often about how I found my partner not long before I lost my father, and I am incredibly grateful for that, because I had and still have this feeling. If my father had died before I met the person I was going to spend the rest of my life with. I would, in some sense, be a little bit unknown to that. You know that somebody you had to meet my father to fully understand me. I want to be clear that I don't actually think this is a rational feeling, meaning I think. Of course I had it not worked out

that way? My partners incredible? I'm I'm sure she would have inferred all the right things and also, I think we are all to be sent. There were knowable under one another were knowable as ourselves, and we express where came from and how we were raised in a million ways every day as we move to the world, it's not that I really believe like. Oh you know, any other relationship after he died would be doomed to fail, or I would somehow be like not fully scene. I actually completely trust them if her partner would fully see me, but the feeling is so potent that somehow had to meet my dad to really understand me. I think that is a part of what you're describing this kindness. You know theater for our actions, which is somehow both such a I mean commentary on each of us is sort of fundamentally solid cystic individuals, but also really psychologically accurate about how the world often works. So can I think, that's part of why I had that very strong corrective moment in the middle of my grief. That was basically like you know. Actually this is

it's deeply, not about you souls. You know I mean, of course it is. Oliver grief is the grief and losing someone we love is very hard but like who suffered the real loss here right, my dad who absolutely delighted in existence. You know delighted in his family, but also delighted and strangers. You know dilated and just like getting in Delhi Sandwich the world was joyful to him and what a tremendous law scene I lost him that he lost everything and in some ways that was kind of salutary to remember, like ok, I'm actually the lucky one. I get to still be here like having my Dell is how much a friend of mine, a doormat teacher J Michaelson one of his little. The expressions when he's talking about the fleeting nature of life is enjoy every sandwich. Yeah I mean exactly and it's so funny. We are told that countless times in countless ways and including view of many cliches, and I absolutely love and appreciate all of them, because the fact is there kind of is no deeper or more useful truth in that one.

It's interesting. Looking at your work, you do a better job of this than I do, hence the envy, but it strikes me that one of the projects that we have both taken on is to try to come up with fresh language for truisms for incredibly obvious stuff. There has lapsed into the realm of cliche and what you ve done here, I think, is really rare. the skin ancient wisdom to talk about in a very personal, but also with a lot of fresh language. I I commend you for that. That's very nice of you to say, because I I absolutely could not agree more. It's kind of wonderful meaning humanity. You know over the centuries over, the millennia like we are just do arrive at the same truths and they are in and they are deep deep and it's annoying that their captured in these now can of glib seeming cliches but they're just right. You know- and I do think it's the obligation of the writer in some sense, to remind people of why their writer give them some kind of new little suit to out into the world. So they look fresh him dapper that I absolutely agree.

He mentioned earlier, that grief sometimes finds you. Would you say, though, that you're done with aggrieved process. Do you get a letter in the mail? Can you officially declare the end of a process like that? You know: I, of course you can't, although be nice, it's a funny thing. I mean, on the one hand, of course you can't, on the other hand, of course, you kind of do, and I think that's it. Orton, meaning yes, grief is wildly unpredictable. It finds us an unexpected moments and sometimes very low. After the lost that were grieving and. I'm after a very, very long time of not experiencing that loss in any kind of acute way. So declaring it done is, of course, chronically premature and also a little unnecessary. On the other hand, I would never want to suggest the grief has never over, because, of course, it is in the sense that the acute and painful stages of it pass and subside and days get easier. They get far more full of joy. I feel a grievous.

If a scrim said a little bit of a dimmer switch on the world. In addition to everything else, it is, and at some point you know, the light goes back to full wattage. And yes, there are hard moments I mentioned baby daughter of mine, and I have certainly had moments, have just acutely feeling the pain that you will never meet my father and he will never meet her in those were as shocking in us forceful as many early moments of grief. On the other hand, what I say that I am still grieving now obsolete. I would say that I'm happy and whole and very much a piece with my father's death, and sometimes it still really hurts anyway, and that's actually just life. I'm glad to hear that we ve been talking specifically about how you process a loss of your dad, but as mentioned earlier, you use, tat experience to examine loss generally, as you point out, were always losing things large and small, from the car keys to people. We love

what kind of incited you arrive at about loss. If I used the word before one of my favorite words in a more capacious sense of that work, Part of the impetus for writing this book and before that, the essay that it grew out of was, as I said, a kind of attraction to this weird category, and that attraction really took the form of a question which is what is an arbitrary, that we put our car keys and are dead parents, and countless other things ourselves. You know our minds is: is it arbitrary that we put these things in the same category? Is it a weird artifact of language like we do? We use the word lost, but actually completely unrelated and we shouldn't make too much of it. I was curious about that and, ultimately, I dont think its arbitrary at all. I think it's a meaningful that we use the same language for all of these things, which of course, is not to suggest at me.

it's placing my cell phone for forty five minutes and like wandering around the house in circles, has anything in common with grieving. My dad- or I guess I should say, has much in common with grieving my dad, but I do think they all share a really important property, which is that they, remind us about this. fundamental ephemeral this to life, if you have a thing and then you don't have a thing you noted earlier, this is actually one of the strangest and hardest things in the world to wrap our minds around like something was here and now it isn't and what's funny is we actually experience that strangeness and that bafflement at every level I mean? I once lost a hat in, I swear to you like it happened to me my favorite winter hat right in what had to have been like a three hundred square foot apartment where I had been. I was there while traveling, I was in it for like four days and it absolutely vanished. And on some level the deep bafflement around that you turn the place upside down? You're like this is like literally impossible right. It was here. I know it was here sear when I walked in the door. I sat at this place now. It's gone, the emotion

none of that is very different from the emotion of how is it possible that my father who's always been here is no longer here, but the bafflement is actually kind of similar and the sense of like the universe is mysterious and capricious, and obviously I don't think my head like died and went somewhere weird, but something about the experience of losing like that does bring you in touch with these forces that fuel Billy it's beyond us. It's why, in a kind of comic way, when we lose things, we do start invoking what, if, if we truly can't find it and it seems actually impossible, you know it perfectly. Sane people will start talking about things like wormholes, you know and ether How did these things bad at the goblins took it away, and- and that is a gesture toward this kind of feeling about ourselves with respect to the universe, which is that we aren't in control and things

we're here- one day are gone. The next, and sometimes we don't get them back and that's true of minor things in his true the most important things in life. Do you think that kind of humbling which can sometimes produce sense of awe, is healthy. oh, absolutely and humbling is the right word for it. I mean in general, I think, a little humbling here and there is good for the soul and very healthy, obviously not for everyone and not in Extremis. There are people who live chronically in a posture of humility when, but they actually deserve, is a sense of rightness and a sense that they do too. What they haven't they deserve far more than they have. So it's not a universal prescription, but you know, in my case, do I think, being humbled by the universe from time times. Yes completely, I think, is good for us. I think it's either in our everyday lives to forget about this, but the lack of control, but also about kind of the grand mystery of it? You know, I think it's good to have to step back for one second and marvel at like boy like.

It's not just that, like oh, that was here and now it's gone. It's like wow, I'm here you know someday. I will be gone, but for now I'm here- and that is quite amazing, so I do think you are right. I think it's very closely connected to art and I think these kinds of feelings that put us in our place in the cosmic sense you know remind us of the great scale of things- are- are really important. Coming up Catherine talks about whether her exploration of loss has made her more at peace with her own inevitable demise. We're also going to talk about two relationship tips that she's found very useful in her marriage How do we find ways to make life a little better? Each day, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday join renowned grief, expert therapists and best selling author Claire Bidwell Smith on Lemon Outta media's hit podcast new day from how to make life more balance you finding time per Hobbes processing, green

Combating burn out clear, provides a unique expertise as a mental health, professional, new neighbouring suppress person, Dave on improving your mental health and sense of well being join clear three times a week as she leads daily reflector practices, answers, listener, questions and shares dynamic conversations with fascinate mine's new day is available wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's David, brown host of wonder is hit podcast business wars. You, no small businesses are ready to thrive again and they're looking for resources to rise to the challenge. That's why Del technologies has assembled in all star lineup of pod casters for the third year in a row, to create a virtual conference to share it by

it's an inspiration for small businesses, whether you're working remotely or back together again, let Dell technologies help safeguard your business with modern devices and windows, eleven pro and search Dell technologies, small business pot for it's an odyssey dot, com, Spotify or Apple podcasts, starting May tenth. I did this work. You've done on the page in your life, exploring the concept of loss, brace or fortify you for future losses, including the loss of your own life. I mean I wish it's a really good question. I don't let us say eagerly anticipate the loss of my life, I, I have always been one of these rage rage. People like I'm, not I'm not at peace with mortality my honour anyone else's. I do not have the great gift of faith that

part of me will endure as me after that, so lay feels very finite and very precious to me and, given my choice, I would gladly live forever. I fear I would probably take some. people fast in bargain. You don't give me a mortality and out of here the price or at a result has it made me more at peace with my own death? No, I don't think so, but I do have like a kind of fairy faint glimmer of the possibility that perhaps that is a large part of what wisdom is, and I think, there's a reason. We associate wisdom with age and I can just very faintly imagine getting old enough and hopefully a little, but why, sir, you know with every passing year decade that someday it would not seem so horrible to contemplate the end of things, including my own and of things, but no I mean this was a very sincere exercise and I think it's really important to think about loss, but I would be lying if I said I felt like I sort of overnight enlightened myself. I think it's a very long road. I would agree with that for most of us at least, but is it

in my unscientific pulling on this subject. Having spent a little bit of time at home, Listen just knowing a lot of older people, including my parents. I have observed in the main that the fear of death appears to go down remarkably, as people get older, I dont know if I can explain it. Maybe it's that the ego has jumped its banks, little bit and at one elderly gentleman I was talking to once in a hospice set, as he was closer to dying kind of felt part of something larger and that's the kind of thing you can say. Or here You need a molecular understanding for the fear to actually go down, but it's The thing phenomenon I've observed will I hope that that do not only for myself but for all of us. You know what a great gift that would be. Actually, if it some strange, mysterious and structural away

the closer we got to death or less alarming. It was I in that that would be a beautiful fact. I would wish on everyone as they get closer and closer to that. I do know. Some number of people are my partner included who are if at peace with it all along- but I think it's a relatively rare quality, so you mentioned your partner. Let's talk about that, so this is the first part of the book. Last second part of the book found. Can you tell us the store ray of meeting your partner, the absolutely so. How did I need my partner We have a mutual friend who was a somewhat different friend, a both of us at the time, but she shut. An email, some plain and just said you know you guys to really made up some time. I want to introduce the two of you. I think it! I adore each other. She actually was not trying to set us up. It was a kind of authentic thought of hers. I call you you guys get along, which was very sweet and At the time I lived up in the Hudson Valley of New York and my future partner lived down on eastern shore of Maryland, so it was like well, that's all very lovely,

What we know hundreds of miles and several states away from each other, but sure enough. You know some months after that email, my partner was headed up on a road trip to them, and my little Hudson Valley TAT happened to be kind of a perfect midpoint to grab lunch or something she in a man s gesture, let's grab lunch. I remember very vividly I was on deadline that day, to be precise, I was actually the horrifying me behind on a deadline is actually ironically enough for the peace and probably best known for us for a piece about seismic in the Pacific Northwest and I was wildly overdue on it and I can remember very clearly thinking well. I'm gonna have to have lunch right and it would be cruel to stand up this friend of a friend who's like stopping here. So, okay, I'm gonna go have this lunch but yeah. You know. Forty five minutes tops So I like walked down to meet her, I'm on literal main street, in this town standing outside the cafe where we're going to meet, and this stranger comes walking up to me and Diana.

In a violation of the terms of modern life. Like I hadn't googled her. I had no idea who I was meeting up with. In fact it's funny in retrospect, I don't even exactly know how I was so sure in that moment that this is the person I was going to meet, but she was strikingly beautiful and kind of strikingly, I must wanna say solemn. Looking like she had a ton of gravitas about her and some little part of me right away. Kind of Straightened up and took notice- and we go into this cafe and we order our lunch and we sit in the back patio and I mean deadlines Medline right I mean I have four hours later or something we emerged on this cafe, and it was one of these conversations that from moment one almost was just it was not small talk. Settled right away into a kind of depth and expansiveness. That is it's so rare and so delightful and even as you're having had happened near like this is incredible that this is happening. So yet that's how we met since your dad's, not here to do it for you, I'm just going to say that Katherine won a Pulitzer for that article.

so my father would be very grateful. That case we lay in the middle of writing epic peace and to move on. I dont embarrass you I believe your second date lasted nineteen days as a matter of fact it did yeah. So we have this lunch and we go our separate ways, and she emailed me that night to say I you know that was lovely. Thank you. I'd love to take you out to dinner sometime, which of course, was logistically challenging see above we lived in different states. So when she was coming down from that trip up to Vermont, we went on our first date of which it's lovely and then couple of weeks after that shouldn't be in New York City anyway, so shut 'em coming up, let's see each other, I said great and she came up and yes Somehow a boy. You said my dad's not here to embarrass me now, I'm just gonna embarrass myself. I could do it all on my own yeah. You know I didn't really want to let her go. It was incredibly wonderful- and I say this in the book, but we talk a lot about. Finding love, but of course, isn't once you ve found Love

and I will tell you I knew very early on that. I had, of course, all of falling in love is an ongoing process of finding its. This delayed full unfolding of another person and learning all about them and learning about their past and learning how their mind works and learning what they like tea for dinner, and you know learning what they're doing for work, and how they do it and it was so lovely to be getting to know each other, and I had waited a very long time to feel the way about someone, and we were both mindful that we did in fact live pretty far away from each other and, as it happens, she had a kind of whole series of work meetings in in New York that month, for which she was theoretically just going to panic, go back and forth and at some point very early on. I think I just looked at her and said one should just stay and she did and we are very happily married. I'd love to hear you talk a little bit if you're, okay with it about this, is a story, but you use the story to launch into an exploration about finding which is the opposite of but inextricably intertwined with.

Exactly it's a similarly strange category right. I'm we do find love, we find God we find meaning in our lives and jobs. We love for lucky and the place to live, but we also find the other half of the pair of socks that one of which went missing and And we find those car keys that we lost and and all kinds of trivial things as well. And I found it a very interesting category and I kind of overlooked one. Similarly, it was intrigued as I was with lost by the kind of range of things that belong in. It was really fun category to think about, because actually finding is really fun in some ways. That is the defining feature of the act of discovery there you are finding the fossil of a dinosaur somewhere or a vaccine, that's going to work against covered or, frankly, something totally trivial, and this to me is really encapsulated by the fact that pretty much like eighty percent of all children's games, basically

wait on the principle that it's fun to find something? That's why you can entertain five, you more than an eight year old in the back seat of a car for an incredibly long time by just saying, find a license plate from every state. That's a strange gave no intrinsic rewards you, no one gets a lollipop at the end of it. You don't get paid to do it, there's no shiny trophy. All you get is like you're, the one who's fast, the South Dakota lessons play right and yet its incredibly fun, and that principle is the principle behind a lot of,

the things that we experience as joyful and pleasurable in life, including adults. Fate is why a lot of us love to like good junk shops or secondhand stores, it's the sense of kind of a treasure hunt in everyday life and, of course, that delight does extend all the way up to these very grand finds like finding someone. You love, and you know we talked about the kind of humbling nature of losing something and, in that sense, to finding is the sort of perfect mirror image, because it is also astonishing, and it also puts you in touch with the kind of strangeness and grandeur of the cosmos, but it's emotionally so different. It's like oh, my gosh. This this thing landed in my lap. You know we met. How did this happen or or I came across this wonderful discovery, so both feel, I think very much about- can have our place in the universe, but while one can of course, be quite painful and sobering, finding is pretty reliably delightful, and yet you write very honestly about the fact that finding love while it leads to her, as you said a moment ago, a series of

insightful discoveries. It's also pretty hard add you find lots of things that don't please you. I was particularly struck by your description of early fights that you were having with your now wife, where realize that the anxiety under girding, the fight was fear of loss in the face of this fresh discovered yet exactly right and thank you. That's a very astute reading of it in its Wyatt belonged in the book ahead because I do think if you're gonna write an extraordinarily happy love story, you, oh your readers, the honesty of recognising that even the happiest of relationships and marriages has friction and difficulty intention of various kinds and at various moments. But yes, I do think that the engine of our early fights was the fear of losing each other, and I think, broadly speaking, it's almost always the case that the engine of fights is not whatever the fight is actually about rate. People are seldom that worked up about. You forgot to

pick up x, object at the grocery store, you know, or you forgot, to take the trash out, or it was my night to go. Hang out with my friends, I mean all kinds of things cause friction in relationships, but when they rise to the level of a fight, I think there usually is some kind of underlying deeper problem or fear or anxiety beneath them. And yes, in the case of my partner, there's kind of two things going on and in that fight that I dwell on One as you say is I was early days and I think we were both very afraid. We were gonna lose each other and she responded to that by kind of girding herself the possibility of being alone, and I responded to it by rushing toward her and pulling on a stately as possible and as that suggest ass. The other thing that's going on, which is a really interesting thing about relationships, is gift to learn how to fight right. I mean people are very different and in

woman's stress or sorrow or worry. We need different things. You know some people in that moment craves face some people crave connection. Some people crave logical solution. Some people don't want their problem solved. They just want. You know a kind of sympathy and comfort and care in the moment. So one of the real tasks of building a Healthy and functional relationship is figuring out how you in your partner, operate in the face of problems like that and learning to recognize it in and be generous towards it, even if it's very different from your own impulse and and figure out a way to work with the two sets of impulses. You have interesting, though. because I believe you describing the book that the severity of the fights diminished markedly once you both realized. Neither of you was going to be leaving dramatically yeah and that felt to me kind of like that.

This is proof of what we had actually been fighting about along or what the fuel for the fight was, which was a kind of fear. You know a sense that we found this incredible thing and does this little difference between us or this friction between us somehow mean we're gonna lose. It is going to jeopardize the whole thing and at a certain point it him abundantly clear that, like this, is crazy right nobody's leaving. Anyone were very deeply in love and very committed to each other's happiness, and so it is only to be the stakes right because they aren't the veal stakes and once that became here. It's true. A lot of the kind of oxygen went out of our fight. There was no fuel to burn up because you at a certain point, if you're, lucky and happily married and have a partner whose committed to keeping things happen, and you yourself are committed to at a certain point, a note of the kind of lovingly familiar enters almost any kind of conflict. We are like that's you being you and I love you very much, and this is going to be fine or, like I feel in myself my own clerks and needs and difficulties.

And- and I register my own emotional way, eighty as real, but also just now I and, and and me being how I am and needing what I need are reacting high need and it just all kind of defuses by several orders of magnitude where you're like this is not an existential threat to our relationship. It's not even an existential threat to our day it's face, just need to step back here for a moment and that's a great place to land and probably the best place you ever can get, because it's not like life, isn't going to present you with stressful moments or conflict or reasons to squabble anyway, but I do believe that it is possible to find ways to do that that are loving and that do not, as I say, pose any kind of existential threat or need to ruin anyone's day a reminder.

We have a wisdom bomb, kindly dropped on me and my wife by the couples counselor that we saw for awhile couple of years ago, and he talks about how he likes to recommend that couples enter into their second marriage with each other. And at that point, you've moved past that wrong com, fantasy, the bridle magazines and you're in the humorous approach to each other's foibles stage, which is like in his view the highest level of achievement. You are not a couples counselor, but you did write a column about two little. I use this term with a wink, but too little hacks that you came up with after having found your now wife. Can you talk those high with the Abbe do. I will double down on your copy out, which is I'm no marriage counselor, but it is true that my partner and I kind of stumbled on too little interventions that we found by accident speaking of

mining, but would have been very useful and our relationship and the first one came about. It was me being kind of it is to be honest, we were feeding on the couch one evening and I should say you know we're both writers and reading on the couch visiting. We do often an easily from our perspective, averted wait for way to spend the evening together, but I was just in one of those moods where was just like antsy and I was reading something for work that I didn't particularly want to be reading and it was not particularly engaging and my head wasn't in it, and what did I really want? I wanted to procrastinate by talking to my partner. My partner, meanwhile, was like utterly absorbed in her book, and her book unfortunately, was the first volume of a three volume like nineteen hundred page history of the spanish empire, and I kept trying to kind of say things to capture her attention and she was like hmm but like clearly just really into this book and I'm of course, looking at this fuck thinking like she's, going to be reading that for the next nine years. You know at some point in the course of this after trying and failing several times to successfully distract her, I just in this kind of burst of

raw, it said patterns in me. which I should say like I, I do not in my everyday life normally conduct myself like a toddler, but it was really incredible. Diversity, of course, like like put the book down and looked up at me and just cracked up, I just laughed, and you know, and and set the book aside and was like what guests here I am what's going we proceeded, I don't even know do whatever we did bereavement. You know what bad tv and talk, but it turned out to be european India is a really useful expression, because its often what were saying anyway rate or try to convey an and sometimes we don't even realize it, but there are times in a relationship. Were you really do just want your partners undivided attention and then that's not how it always is an account. People have jobs and busy lives, and babies and things to do, and sometimes you re contentedly,

Your own thing with your partner, which has its own kind of joy. Hopefully, but sometimes you just want to be the centre of attention and there's only very useful about just saying it Fourthly, and so now we do sometimes you know, I'm like stuck deep inside my foot one for no very good reason at some stupid hour of the day or night and says you pay attention to me and it's a nice corrective. You know it. It restores some balance. The second somewhat similar, it's the thing we occasionally say to each other. It comes from her. Actually, I say this in the book, but as it happens, my partner and I both kind of love housework like we're very content to cook and clean and take out the trash- and you know just the sort of daily stuff of making a household comfortable unlivable. Similarly, almost ever have friction over that kind of thing, but they quite early on in our relationship with done the laundry which, again we both did it laundry and were upstairs making the bad, which were both in our

viable bed makers, but on that particular occasion we had washed the comforter cover, which of course meant that we are obliged, but the comforter back into its cover, which is actually one of life's most annoying tasks. If you ask me So there we are doing this and it it quickly becomes apparent that we have different strategies for getting a comforter back into the comfort of cover, so we're working at absolute cross purposes and it's starting to get a little testy cause. I'm like no, no do this, and finally, she just like kind of flounced down her edge of the comfort and just do it my way is this like microsecond pause, then we boxes practice because it was a similar thing. It was like simultaneously a ridiculous and, like arguably kind of childish, worse and then also is actually the most mostly intelligent than you can say in that moment, because the truth about putting comforter into a comfort to cover with

the truth about many things in life- is that actually you cannot compromise, you cannot do it half her way and half my way, and sometimes you just have to do it the other person's way or you just have to do it your way, and that turns out to be very, very useful in the course of a relationship because, as I said, there are many things where you can't split the difference, and sometimes it is better to just seed the point, and I found that one especially moving and helpful, because the fact is all What really is to make my partner happy and to the great fortune of my marriage? Basically all she wants is to make me happy so once you're kind of reminded of that you're like yeah, why wouldn't I just do it your way, it's a comforter like who cares right. So those are my effort for whatever they're worth, which is you know not not terribly much. Those are my two relationship tips. I disagree. I think they're great well, thank you feel free to try them and I hope they don't back fire gravely. But if they do you no contract me on air.

Or something you know I'll see you in court that up and coming up Catherine we'll talk about why she has become so fixated on the word and- and we will talk about some tools she uses to bring herself back in to whatever happening right now, ready after this, since your listening to this show, I think it's safe to say you, love listening to pod right well, you'll find a ton of binge worthy podcast on Amazon music Amazon music? Has millions of free podcast episodes to listen to plus music stations and playlists you want your music on demand and ad free. You have to try Amazon, music, unlimited, where you can listen to any song anywhere offline, with unlimited skips for a limited time, new customers, try, Amazon, music, unlimited free for thirty days, just go to Amazon, dot com, Slash wondering that's Amazon that coms

wondering to try Amazon, music. Unlimited free for thirty days, Amazon, DOT, TK slash wondering news. Automatically cancel anytime terms, apply. What's up your Stleam Russian, while here and I'm so excited to be hosting a brand new podcast from ten percent happier called more than a feeling which is all about the mysterious world of emotion. Are we think about it? How many emotions do you go through on any given day and you always understand where they're coming from her, what to do them in the seas, we're, bringing you tons of super interesting stories that ask some pretty thought provoking questions like is jealousy always bad. How do I face my biggest fear? Are we

really more emotional than men, and are you ever too old to be a boy band Van were also get it's off. Do plenty of emotional experts, including psychologists and therapies, as well as airline pilots musicians and even hairdressers, to help us better. Understand our inner world of emotions. I hope you will. Going in and listen to more than a feeling wherever you get your bad guess so the final section of the book you start with lost, then we go found and then the last section is called and ferry. over and meaningful. You say that the very word and is existentialist provocative. Can you explain what you mean by that doesnt interesting thing about the word and as many interesting things about the word, and I know who would have thought right. It's like one syllable, three letters. We never think about it, but

For one thing you know you might women from the elementary school grammar lessons that and is a conjunction there's lots of contention. You Juno words that joined to other words, but almost all of those No. If, then, because, since those words tell you something about the relationship between the two things that are being connected, I'll email, you after this programme is over, it tells you I, when something is going to happen, all email you, because I have a follow up, question ass, your tells you why I'm doing a thing and does not work that way I'll email you and we'll talk. Well, ok that that's all very well and good, but those two halves of the sentence: don't have any necessary relationship twitter and that's true, but and in general can connect any things in the known universe. You know it can connect microphones and come clots, can connect laptops, and I dunno chickadees, and that to me is a very interesting

act because it gets into reality about the world which, as we would like to think that everything is connected and meaningful. Is that things happen because of other things, or they happen before or after other thing is in some kind of meaningful order and that they follow some kind of set of of discernible rules that help us make sense of the universe. But much of life is action. Just connected for no discernible reason at all. You know I fell in love and my father had. I am very anxious during the pandemic, because my mother elderly and has an auto immune disorder, and I'm incredibly happy that I get to spend so much time with my child. Like I'm incredibly happier, I spend too much time with my child and I'm going insane because we can't have childcare and schooling is wildly disrupted, and all this these are unrelated experiences that happened to us all. The time and life is really full of such moments and when I say it's existentially provocative it's because, oddly for such a little and such an overlooked word, it does get it. I think some some deep truths about the universe, which is actually

Things are not always connected and orderly and causal and happening for discernible reasons. Maybe depending on your cosmology, those those reasons exist and rules exist in order exists, but if so it I'm not known to us and saucer, of course very possible to believe it doesn't exist at all and that there is a kind of randomness in the world and things that are connected only by chance or they happen to be connected temporarily. But I just delivered a very kind of sobering signing answer to your question, but there it is what I wanted. As I do. The ads are having looked at the sections of the book em, I would get really interesting. I believe you also use the term. Life is a perpetual and machine and we have to get used to that end if there are go again with an and if especially for those of us who don't have cosmology, that explains it all to get use. That is no small task here. It really isn't and on the one hand, I think we all live with this feeling all the time and life

You love your brother, but he also tries you crazy an hour. You love your children and you can barely stand to be in the same room. Is there husband, you know your ex husband, without whom you wouldn't have those beloved children. We live with constant contradiction. We live kind of amalgamation of things are happening to us at once, and it simultaneous they really defining feature of life, and it is tough to deal with as talking to the wonderful writer and memorized and Mama recently in and choose this great image I can't get out of my head was talking about the end section of the book to him. She said I really like to keep my existential Silverware George

we're separated like she likes the the knives and the little lives face and the spoons in the spoons based on the forks and the forks basin. Don't we all right, but, but actually that is actually not at all how life works. You know we we, we do fall in love and grieve. At the same time, we are tending to our parents when their cognitive decline and which I'm very sorry to hear about it at the same time that maybe you're watching your child's intellect blossom, I mean we just we don't get to separate these things, including in mundane ways, you're grieving, but like whoops, you have to go to work and you have to run the meeting and you have to just do the laundry we don't get to set aside these little separate spaces where, where it just purely doing one thing and thinking one thing and feeling one thing every once in a while. We can do that briefly, but it's not the fundamental texture of adult life. The fundamental texture of adult life is this kind of and necessary kind of cod in conjunction of things crowding in on us. In the face of this confusing. Gumbo, you land on what might be done

intentionally or not of a pretty buddhist answer which is paying attention, or I believe you used the word attentiveness than paying attention to what John Cabot's in calls the full catastrophe. I want to read you back to you one last time if you'll humor me time and carrying on will carry almost all of what we know of life away. Nothing about. That is stranger surprising. It is the fundamental unalterable nature of things. The astonishment is all in being here: loss which seems only to take away adds its own kind of necessary contribution. Disappearance reminds us to notice transience to cherish fragility. To defend loss is a kind of external conscience urging us to make better use our finite days are crossing is a brief one best spent bearing witness to all that we see honouring what we find noble tending. What we know needs our care recognise

seeing that we are inseparably connected to all of it, including what is not yet upon us, including this already gone. We are here to keep watch not to keep well done by them playing the role of your dad again. Thank you. I'd love to hear you just say more about the foregoing. Well, you know I have eaten came to being a Buddhist than I do to being a marriage counselor, but I'm certainly in my ear of both categories and especially of the buddhist outlook on life, because I do think in some sense all we do have is the present moment and its incredibly difficult, not to get distracted by the past or the future and in a certain sense. It is that every sandwich, if you're eating this

image right now like eat the sandwich, enjoy it and notice it, and I do think that loss you know when it happens to us. It's confusing. It seems to encourage us to turn around and face the past, because that's where our love loved one who's gone dwells. They don't exist in our presence anymore and they don't exist in the future, which is part of the real pain of it. And yet at the same time, as I said, I think, lost, does deeply and fundamentally remind us that the time that we have with those we love the time that we have with everything we love with the world around us am a great lover of the natural world. I find great solace and pleasure joy just from being in the world as it is, and frankly, a little bit like my data. Great lover of people do I look. Be around people. I find them infinitely fascinating and I do think LAS Tres takes us by the shoulders and shakes us and says you will not have this forever. You have got to make the most of it

what you can- and it's such a simple lesson, and it is so hard to remember it. Just it slips away from us every day and all we can do is just try to remember to return to it and return to it and return to it, and you know, paradoxically, that the same is true of love, which is so joyful, and of course all we want to do is dwell on it and yet, first of all anything you love smuggles in alongside it. The fact that we will eventually it that's the price of of loving anyone or anything. And, of course, you know we get distracted, even while in love too, and we get distracted in our and that's why we should say pay attention to me, and I believe the world and all kinds of ways says to us pay attention to me, and I do ultimately think that it is probably the best that we can do with our lives is, is to remember to notice and hopefully based on that noticing act. As I said in the passage to spread to protect what needs are protection and to champion monies, are championing and

Most of all to just cherish, while we can cherish, amend all that in its reminding me, in particular, the part about taking care of things, to write me of something that it Buddhist monk, brother, fab, young, fir loyal listeners who might want to go back and listen to that one said Finally, on the show that he said something to the effect of everything comes into the world inanimate or or animals, the purpose is to give a tree give shade. We take care of things. other people, that's our job, whether we know it or not, and that work happiest more connected to that purpose, because we aren't here permanently, nothing is permanent, so our job here is to be a temporary caretaker. We had to decide what that is. As we are part of a continuum. Does this land for you oh yeah. Absolutely I mean I made at the end of the book about caretaking and how much I and how aptly I think that summarizes our role here at the time,

I was writing that we were about to have this little daughter of ours who's now, eight months old and you know becoming a parent or contemplating becoming a parent. I think makes it very clear in some sense that the job is caretaking, but of course it is not limited to our children. I believe us to be caretakers and stewards of of everything around us of one another have ideals we believe in of the world itself and certainly able We live in a time that really calls on us to act on that caretaking impulse as much as possible. So yeah I mean I absolutely share that feeling it's nicely put and often feel like will. The whole point is kindness. What else are we doing here if we're not being kind to one another, but but I actually think that even more act of notion of our job is to give

We are trees that give shade and in our own way whatever that may be, and this is quite beautiful and a good kind of summons to ourselves. Let me ask you one last question. You said I have no claim to being a Buddhist some curious earlier. You set the world distract us all the time, even though you have a suspicion that our job is to pay attention. Given the chaos coffee and our lack of control over that? What do you do to remember to wake up just think, I'm in for many many many many years. My answer that would have been that I run then a runner most of my adult life and I find in running that curious kind of attentiveness that actually comes from the world dropping away, there's a kind of attention that almost felt like not paying attention and you just kind of purely in the world and of the world, and it's a beautiful and restoratives feeling, and it does help it. Son had kind of sustains me

beyond the daily round or whatever it may be, but I'll tell you having a baby is a great way to pay attention. Wonderful thing about babies is all they say is pay attention to the issue today they need your focus. All the time- and they deserve it all the time and best of all they reward it all the time and is just so teufel and delightful, and I do find my daughter to be possibly the highest example of something I also get my partner and from all those I love, which is the kind of reminder of whatever else may be going on in your life. It is actually this kind of pure beautiful, beloved miss of the humans around you that, merit our attention. I feel that every time I picked my daughter up from an app her, you know every time she just kind of gleefully looked up at me from two thinks he's banging together are so I find that very helpful and beyond that I guess I would say what I said earlier, which is the natural world I'm very restored to attentiveness by this incredible place. We live by streams by

goes by mountains by strange snapping turtle of enormous size. That was making it's way across my back yard in the rain before I hopped on this call. All of that you just kind of suddenly sit up and you're like alright. You know the world this. I I said look at this. It's great so great place to leave it, but you do owe me this. Can you please plug all of your books and anything else you put out into the world of people might want to go find after having had the pleasure of listening to you for the last little while Asher I mean once again I wish I could summon my father, who would you know just kind of march, all of you by the shoulder blades into your nearest wonderful bookstore and command your your purchasing in the direction of my books, but I guess most of all I I would just love it. If people wanted to check out the new book, it's called lost found. As you heard, it is partly a memoir about losing my father and falling in love, but also very much a reflection on these categories,

loss and discovery that all of us live within in so many complicated and interesting and wonderful ways, and I would say that, although it is partly a book about grief, I think of this is very much a book about love and and happiness and happy families and- and I hope it brings happiness to a bunch of readers, give a website. I do it's just my full name I turn should start come. My name is some about two boring yet impasse well to spell names. But it's k, a t, h, R Y N S c: h: U L, Z, the dot com part everyone has probably mastered by now. Catherine. Thank you very much appreciated. It was absolutely a pleasure thanks so much for having me and thanks again to Katherine, really great, to meet her, thank you as well to everybody who worked so hard on the show. They include Gabrielle Sacrament, DJ, cashmere, Justine, Davy Kim come up. Maria were Tell SAM, oh Johns and Jan Point, also or good friends over it, ultra violet audio, who do are audio engineering

coming up on Wednesday, a brand new episode with Mary Frances O'Connor, a neuroscientist who explains, How our minds makes sense of loss and grief. Oconnors interview is these scientific companion to today's conversation with Catherine Schulz. Both are part of our mental health reboot Series running throughout the world. of may you on Wednesday for that nineteen twenty seven, the Mississippi River burst through its levies in seven states flooding over one million acres and leaving seven hundred thousand people homeless. It was the worst river flawed in U S history, but for some black communities in the deep south, the floods aftermath was even more devastating I'm We grant the host of one we shall american history tells us. We take you to the events times and people that shaped America and Americans are values are struggles and our dreams. In our latest series, a catastrophic floods

Mrs deep racial divides in one Mississippi dealt a town as white plantation owners fight to keep black sharecroppers from fleeing the floods on at any cost. Listen to the Great Mississippi flawed by following american history, tellers on apple upon casts Amazon, music or wherever you get your punk cast within one week, early and ad free by joining one replace an apple, punk, ass or the wonder yet, and we fight we fight like hell and if you don't fight like AL you're, not gonna have a country anymore with genuine. Sixth thousands descended on the. U S, capital on trumps, urging you tweeted be. There will be wild, but January six wasn't the beginning, and it certainly wasn't the end of the story from pineapple streets. I was wondering in the Amazon music comes, a new podcast mini series called will be wild. That looks into the human stories left out of the January sixth headlines are just kind of walk through the fire is what we're going to do organize and run at

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