This is the ten percent happier podcast dan harris Ok, hello. Today's interviewee truly gave me a run for my money, not because he was trying to be a pain in the bottom. Is that I don't think so but because he really resists giving overly simplified answers and because, as you will hear he's in the habit of asking people questions about what is really behind their questions again, I really don't think this. Is him trying to be. Forgot. I think it's that he's trying to model how to actually listened to other people, how to be a tuned or in other words, how to be a functioning human of his job. As you will hear him admit- and these are my words not his- is to teach his patience, how to be human, and while most of us will never actually be patients of doktor Jacob hum

just listening to him, I believe will help you do life better wanna talk about some fascinating said today, doktor harm, who is a legendary therapist, including what he says. Maybe the most important thing he has discovered as a therapist. Why he shuts down his clients, attempts to intellectualize their experiences rose versus Kronos those it may sound like marvel characters, but there actually greek terms for our relationship to time. Thinking of marvel, though, we are gonna talk to doktor home about why he says the incredible hulk is so important to him well to talk about the concept of mental opposition, which is the ability understand the mental states of the people around you and your own and he'll explain why this is a skill that, for many of his patients needs to be reawakened. We also touch on what it means to love exquisitely, that's his term what he means by the way

word love and whether or not we have to learn to love ourselves before we can learn to love other people. Dr Hom is the director of the center for child trauma and resilience, and clinical assistant, professor of psychiatry at the icahn school of medicine, at MT sinai. He treats children, young adults, adults and families across the age range for a variety of issues today were talking to doktor harm, but we talked what about him here on the pod. On monday, my guest on Monday, Stephanie fu, talked about how doktor harm helped her through a case of complex ptsd, which she developed after some intense and prolonged. child abuse and neglect, as I mentioned on Monday, while were using the word trauma in these episodes this week, a word which some of you will relate to.

Intimately at others will not see yourselves in at all. This week's episode are are actually in the broadest sense about how to live with the hardest things that I've ever happened to you by the way is the last episode of our month long mental health reboot series, in which, every week we paired mental health morris with expert scientists and researchers will get back to your more willy nilly programming style come monday heads up before we dive in here there's some profanity in this episode. If you want wanna believed version you can head over to our website or over to the ten percent happier app one more thing before we get started here. Many of us want to live healthier lives, but keep bumping up against the same obstacles over and over again. The larger culture bombards us with new tapes and hacks and quick fixes. All the time to close the gap between who we are

And who we want to be, but what if there were a different way to relate to this gap, that would make you more likely to succeed actually what if you could find intrinsic motivations instead of just reacting to stuff the cultures telling you in order to make habit changes that will make you healthier and happier and not send you into a shame spiral, I'll be form healthy habits without taking your own, but unnecessarily we ve taken one of our most pay. miller courses over on the ten percent happier app and turned it into a meditation challenge. The healthy habits challenge with stamford psychologist kelly mechanical will help you understand the benefits of self compassion, which sounds gooey, but is evidence based, I assure you the better, If self compassion, when changing your habits and understand why self criticism a go to for most of us is actually counterproductive when you're working toward difficult goals, you'll also learn about them.

of social connection, inhabit change and how to experience the discomfort that comes with change without reacting to it in our habitual and reflexive ways the healthy. Challenge kicks off on Monday june thirteenth to join just download the ten percent accurate where we get your apps or go visit. Ten percent dot com- that's all, One word spelled out if you already have the app just open it up and follow the instructions to join and if you're not already a ten percent happier subscriber You can join us by starting a free trial that will give you access to this. Challenge, along with everything on the app, and I think it's all fantastic, so go check it out are that's enough. Promotion for me will get started with today's guessed right after this bedroom is probably one of the most important rooms in your home. So why not give it a refresh with zuma, zuma, practice

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c, o slash happier for a twenty five dollar dreaded. And now a word from our sponsor better help, as we ve mentioned here plenty of times burn out is a very real thing for very many of us these days. In fact it's an issue working on in my own life for a long time, if you're any like me, you may also have a tendency to work too hard and too long. I continue to work an understanding. What is driving this for me and how to manage it because of the costs are pretty high. Both personally and interpersonal for me, therapy has been a key part of doing this work. I can talk to my therapist about the root causes of and maybe more importantly, how to manage my tendencies day to day better help is customized online. There that offers videophone and even live chat sessions with your therapists. So you don't have to see anything

on camera. If you don't want to its much more affordable than in person therapy and you could be matched with a therapist in under forty eight hours, our listeners get ten percent off their first month at better health dot com, slash happier, that's better health dot com, slash happier, Dr Jacob homme. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me real honor pleasure to have you on. I guess I'd be interested to start by hearing a little bit about you. How did you get into this line of work? Why, when I was a kid I used to to my mind that I'm going to go into a monastery and korean born immigrant, my mother's, a north stream refugee in my father's from south maria, and we came here when I was three years old and you know we're like your typical blue collar working class crean family and I did well in school,

into an ivy league school and then I would still say while I'm gonna, turn a monastery after college and should be like? Ok, whatever and then I wonder, is like mama didn t care like under all the sun and you ve spent what a money on my education and then she said this really weird story. That's entertaining so I'm going to tell you it's not because I believe it when I was born in korea. She said that this monk just walked into our home and was just wandering around the home, and she said, can I He was something- and he said, there's this weird ghostly operational, cloudy thing above your house and try to figure out what it is and we saw me- and he said: oh that's why and then he said was bertram about him, because cream people have bertram about their child. and then she said I was climbing a mountain and crumbled and I start to fall and the mountain collapse into my belly, and I knew I was pregnant

and he said oh he's- going to be a mountain of a man in some way like a great man but he's going to be of the constitution, so give me some string and I'll pray for his health. So it wasn't a scam. He just wanted brink and then, a few days later, a nun came by and same thing happened, and they also said: don't ever tell him the story cause it's going to go to his head and so she did tell me and dick animals mess with me a little bit, but I've always had this sense of wanting to join the monastery. Do something spiritual. And then I went to brown. I was a little just studies, major I double matron in psychology and I just painted the rest of my time because it brown there's no core curriculum, and then I learned about the boy thought fur and I also met some fantastic therapies and the whole point of the boys office at taking reach enlightenment and leave this world, but they turn around and see the suffering of other people and they turn around and like help other people reaching lineman in. So that was a higher moral calling then going to the monastery

being a psychologist was a way to still have a doctor after my name, so that I could be the ideal doctor lawyer, son of an immigrant family, and I thought that there were some really creative people in the field that I had met. Some of my professors. I thought I could be happy doing a life like that, where our therapy becomes an art form, and so I could fulfill They create a part of me to insult. I feel like I'm a contemplative in disguise, doing trauma, work and I do traveller because promise he only diagnosis in the dsm, the diagnostic statistical manual that actually acknowledges that most of our mental illness comes from suffering. And if you know the research about trauma realize that so many of the disorders, the mental disorders, are actually

symptomatic of trauma, it's a more personal cause, then some of the biological explanations for psychiatric disorders, how we have touched, became a convergence of all these interests. How'd you would define trauma. Well, the ones that I really care about in my work is actually moment to moment, terror and fear and early childhood stuff and was an early mother, infant researcher and the kind of trauma that kids often neglected. in our society is actually the moment to moment, neglect and abuse and fear children. Experience from a very early age, most people, folks, I'm like a big t. Traumas disasters, the car accidents that physical abuse, but even if you think,

children who have like foster care or like violence. I always wondered what their first two years of life were: that's where the roots of a lot of relational promised get lay down, and that's what I feel like I can work through and help people with in the therapy that a practice I guess the question that I hope this is an inappropriate. That's coming to mind is if somebody's experience, in fear and terror on a moment to moment basis between zero and two at the hands of their parents or caregivers. I guess getting over. It is not the right expression, but is that workable had how yeah that's a huge question? I thought to be a lecturer in itself. I have seen it be worked through the t term that I haven't found a good layman's term for his reawakening. The capacity for mental association and mindfulness actually is a very close overlap

centralisation, but determined literally just needs, knowing that the other person has a mind and knowing that I have a mind and being traced about what's happening in your mind as well as being traced out what's happening in my life. since the original wound for somebody who's been abused as a child, relational wound, in other words its your relationships through no fault of your own, our jacked up, then these people all carry this sort of inability to relates tastefully into the rest of their lives, young and I would add to it, what's really screwed up is that

if the baby, the only way to deal with fear and terror is to run towards your caregivers, they are supposed to protect you. You scream out hoping that they'll come to your rescue, but if they're the ones who are hurting you, then it puts you in a terrifying loop where you want to run from them, but at the same time your body tells you to go, find them, and then you spend the rest of your days, trying to figure out how to resolve that paradox, and so this is where children learn to mute their own feelings, they, that they have to be the one to take care of other people, that their feelings are as important as the other person yeah, and you start to lose touch with yourself and your contention is that this is tradable yeah. It's a lifelong process, but I've seen a lot of people get a lot better and through many different ways, not just therapy.

In the way that I practice it. What was the word again? Mental innovation yeah? It strikes me that you don't have to have endured. I think the term of art is a sea ease, adverse childhood events correct in order to have tat or with metal alsatian. Empathy seems to be on the decline. Yes globally. Exactly I dont know if it's on the decline, what I've been seeing is that the whole world's wide terrifying world wars in the forties fifties or what not and our generation is suffering the emotional ratification of that most. My patients are survivors at the hall caused survivors of what was one to chinese cultural evolution, crean war and slavery and all the other kinds of horrible things that we do to each other. And what that does to the first generation is that it makes them focused only on four

survival and getting money getting wealth like a tiger parent idea at the cost of emotional intelligence national understanding. It's too dangerous to note your feeling and you don't have time for it and then the next generations, once physical security and safety is secured, then they start to have the luxury of being other complain about I got there emotionally neglected and then they want to work that, through with their children, and so I think it ticks generations for us to recover from the devastation of peace, global wars that we experienced. I wonder whether it all tied back to travel or whether there are other aspects of modern life that drive us further into ourselves. I having I thought I've read will check this out I think I've read that empathy is on the decline. I know self centered. This is on the rise. I've seen those data, so in a

world, where capitalism enforces a kind of individualism where social media puts this imposition of building our own personal brand. All the time- we're polarization, political or otherwise encourages us to dehumanize people with whom we disagree. It seems like this capacity for mental ionization understanding that other people have complex minds of their one is under assault, trauma or no trauma. I absolutely agree with that. This is where I meant that has just because one is We can generalizations about what's happening in the world because I feel, like I dont- have a pulse on it. Necessarily I'm my whole days sitting with one person in front of me in a quiet room not having a pulse was happy in society, and the only thing that I can have an impact on is the person in front of me

that society and other people deal with the larger social issues. This is where you and I are different because I'm always willing to opine on shit. I know nothing about so yeah. Here is another reason: why don't go there? With my patience, I find that it becomes a defence against inner, knowing its freud's defend, of intellectual innovation. In so I often whenever I hear it, I immediately like lightheaded shut it down with my patients. People instead of looking at their stuff, start coming up with concepts and grand theories as a kind of defence exactly there like I'm lonely, but isn't everyone lonely? Isn't the world bank this all lonely. What am I gonna do with that? So talk to me about your approach, given the population, your treating, how would you describe your approach and how did you come up with it one? It's not anything new. I don't want it

somehow claim that it's my approach, I think I'd, do it in a weird way. I do therapy weird way and I probably give more credit to classic cycle dynamic, psychoanalytic theories and approaches which are out of favour in this time of, like canada, people therapy or like what they call. Sir wave therapies. But I guess technically I would fit mostly in a modern, relational approach when no one's going to know what that means. But in the old old days with freud, initially and most psychodynamic psychotherapy is it's a one person therapy, meaning that if you're, my patient and anything that happens. It's all your stuff and if you find me deplorable or in some positive way respectable, then it's because it's your stuff. It's getting projected onto me.

I'm neutral, I had no person heard in the room, but in a two percent psychology signals at the sweetest created by my stuff. It's intermingled with your stuff and then we could create stuff, and the goal of this kind of therapy is just to wonder about what's happening between us with ass. Much like open triassic is passed which goes back to mindful practice. Again. It's like this compassionate curiosity about what has happened between us and when you can really do that. There's really this poignant, knowing and seen of the other, but happens that does break through the lack of empathy and their silos that we are creating and in our modern society it becomes a deeply moving. Actually work so sounds like you're, an active participant here, not examining somebody's,

Symptoms and pathologies from a clinical remove its more complicated. I feel like I have like seven layers of processing happening lot. Do therapy, there's still the clinical brain that thinking what's happening inside of them. what's happening inside of me in what's happening between us and it there's another part of me. That's just like feeling what's happening in my body, trying to wonder whether it be useful for media like express that and be spontaneous there's the red flag, my spider centres that are going off the same time, trying to check that I'm not doing anything in appropriate are unethical and unprofessional. It's really quite like exhausting thing to be doing it. This way- and I like it, I wanna be reactive- been flouted the sea to my pants feeling

I don't want to know what's going on, I don't have a script. I do want to have a sense of what's gonna happen. I'd rather like be surprised at the moment, and then it becomes like joyful and playful and exciting. First of all, I love getting that glimpse into your mind as you're doing therapy that's fascinating, and I thought that came up for me was that a top of being exciting enjoy full and rewarding. It might also be a form of therapy for you too, because you're learning about yourself absolutely its undeniable yeah, I'm not perfect, I'm just another human being treated like forgot. How to live my life and I dont claim otherwise and I make mistakes. I fumble my heart breaks my heart aches in therapy. I once told a man like I can teach as far as I've gotten.

As it is this man who had a severe trauma history, because I can you fix me doc, I said I can we take it as far as I've taught myself and they got to find someone else or you gonna teach me something new to become totally

who created. What's that roomy phrase were all walking each other home? Have you experience trauma yourself, yeah for sure yeah? It's intergenerational passed down. I think my maternal grandfather died on the land mine escaping north korea. Korea was under japanese occupation for fifty years before the crimean war, my parents had very little to eat. My mother was in a refugee housing in Seoul. My father was a trail sergeant in korea, which made him have a temper and sullen. His anger could be scary. Sometimes my mother was depressed, so she disappeared on me. I remember moments when she would psychologically disappear on me as a little boy. I grew up in taxes in the seventies, the k K, castel marched. One of my earliest memories is try by racial, so

or against me when I was like four years old. I've witnessed gun violence between korean and vietnamese gangs. As a high school student, I have like probably three or four aces, if you're going back to that adverse childhood events scale so you're able to make the empathic leap quite naturally into the seat that your patients are occupying, we have to, I think, yeah. That's the only way to therapy ryan trauma is an act of violence against relational connection against feeling human against feeling like you deserve to be loved, and that loving is a good thing and it's a safe thing, and so I think that that has to be reawakened, and sometimes it happens,

through the therapy relationship with constrain. Obviously it has to be ethically done, but I feel like I have to feel things for my patients or else I'm doing something wrong, or else I'm defending run colluding with their avoidance in defence. You know that, polish in the mirror and a foreign buddhism. Remember like from the way I feel like I've taken back into my own.

Practice where I published a mirror of my heart, so that it becomes a tool for resonating and harmonizing with the other person's heart, and it also becomes an invitation for their heart to start humming again, kostroma shuts it down. Let me see if I got it and I'm drawing a little bit upon my conversation with Stephanie fu, whose episode will have erred on Monday or two days before yours and just to save illicit rashid. I caused you to listen to it. You don't have to listen to it in order to keep going with this. What I got from everything you have said and from talking to her it's like you teaching people how to be human again, because there is something that shuts down when, in your relational capacity, relation ships being the most important currency of homo sapiens as something shuts down quite undressed

animal in a situation where the people are supposed to be caring, for you are abusing you as you. Just somebody's gotta teach you how to do it. Your parents weren't there to teach you how to do it, and so that's something you can help. People learn for themselves, yeah. As soon as I heard that my first reaction was to say that I teach them how to be both exquisite human and all tat human. At the same time, meaning like it's like us at our best when we are humming both with our heads and our hearts alive and resonating with other people. That is the exquisite part and then the all too human part is whenever we have foibles and fumbles, and we love ourselves despite those things yeah so add our asked work right, they're paying attention what's happening right now, attuned to the other person and tuned to ourselves at the same time, but we can't be at our best all the time

So when we screw up, which is inevitable, can we be ok enough with that? Yes, exactly what are the tools you teach people because they can't be with you all the time in your office. They need to go out in the world and relate to other people so all put on the table in part. Why? I'm asking this question, which is I don't have any patients cause, I'm not a mental health professional p. Anti ass. I don't have the eighty I e n c either, but in this case I don't have any people MIKE. air, but I have an audience that I care about and so are always want to give them things. can help them do their lives better, and so that died. Some of my questions. You suggest put that on the table that, if you're trying to figure out why, sing whatever I'm saying that usually what's operating in my mind. So, having said that, I was curious because I believe quite strongly having spoken to Stephanie

Having had the life experience is I've had and having only but the half hour review, thus far that what you're teaching is applicable to pee, all who will never end up in your office and don't have ac ease or may not have experienced trauma its universal. That's really what I Even so, I'd love to hear a little bit from you about what kind of skills do you teach I bristle at the word skills and tools, and I think it's either because I haven't done the work of like being able to crystallize what I do, which is really hard for me to do. It's like asking what's the best move in chess, there's so many answers to this and I only know the answer as I get another person, but there are

in general, things that I'm always trying to get at which is like? Are you a whole person? Is there like flow or are you compartmentalized? Are you blocked? Can you be poignant? I love that word, but it's hard to describe it. It's like. Can you move me? Can you move yourself and for me that represents an integrate kind of head heart gut body spirit, and so I know where I'm trying to get people, but with each person I don't know how they're going to need to get there and in the room. I guess what I Who is that I try to look for moments whenever I see disconnection association or whatever, and I try to bring attention to that and to wonder what's going on in that, and so, though, only toy really practices does mindful curiosity, but it's not just mindfulness it's. Actually. loving curiosity. It has to be done with such, like all, what's goin on here, you'll love, it like your to Europe,

it can do no wrong, and you just want to understand, what's happening right now, and that's a really hard thing for people to do. I think there's so much judgment around that a hard thing for people to do for themselves or for others, people are for both both this compartmentalization? The lack of empathy that you are referring to we deafening on and pathetic, with ourselves, really mean to ourselves in harsh and judgmental and renounce parts of ourselves. This partly via like buddhism way better than western religions, because it wasn't about getting rid of the evil side has seen the wholesale in accepting the good and bad, I'm ask you and unfair leap, broad question: it's gonna put you back in the chest mode, unfortunately, so you can I fully and passionately slap. My wrist, if you want, but what can one

you, in order to be a whole person, have flow achieve poignancy him integration. What can you do? One would be to start look at yourself and seeing how well you can tolerate that, like not literally but metaphorically, stand naked in front of a mirror and see what your reaction to that is. Are you repulsed t move away from it just observe it, and then, if there is some

impulsion and stuff then try to wonder about that as well. Put that in front of the mirror, it's very much like parts work like best represented in internal family systems. I know you're a an interview with dick schwartz before which I listened to, and I loved that interview. I share that with all my colleagues, I loved it because you actually put them through the ringer and you didn't just like go along with it, and you see dick having to like go into his tool bag and try to come up with different ways to reach you. It can put it on the ground, like you're, going to struggle with people with this stuff, even dick short struggles with trying to apply this stuff anyway. So it's a lot like looking at all your parts observing what comes up trying to look at that with love and kindness as well know that each part has a role and it's trying to love you the best way it can, even if it seems

and the way it does her. That's really hard. Even that alone takes a lot of time and ditches becomes a muscle of awareness that you have the practice in a muscle of like cultivating love in the midst of the potential for fear and shame. Maybe that's the most important thing that I discovered I'm obsessed with the idea of suffering. Does it have a point and what you do with it sufferings a given in life, and our task in life is to learn to love in the midst of great suffering. You brought me to a point that I I love when I get to this point in interviews, which is that I have seventy five questions have drawn a line: the planes up on the runway nights so just note to listeners I know he said a lot of interesting stuff there and I promise you I'm going to do the best of my ability to look back and get the all of it. So coming up will do just that. Will loop back and try to get at all of the stuff dr hahm just brought up, including what it is we're supposed to do with our son?

ring and what he means by the word. Love will also talk but whether or not we have to love ourselves before we learn to love, others, the difference between cairo's and Kronos, and why he likes talking about the incredible hulk. It's all coming up after this, there is power in getting together But the people you love, maybe getting together with your people, means reconnecting with your childhood friends or watching the game with your college teammates or seeing your new baby mean your best friends baby for the first time. One thing is clear: today: families don't often live in the same city, let alone have a single place to come home to verbo knows the best place is with your people.

With millions of vacation homes, your place can be anything from a charming mountain cabin or lakeside lodge to a city apartment for luxury home verbal homes provide the space and comfort. You need to focus on the people who matter visit, verb oda com or download. The verbal apt find the perfect vacation home for your people, verbal a place for together. Every year, one of the goals I make us to read more books. I always start off strong, then about halfway through the year when the weather gets better, and there is more to do. I always mean that my reading time goes way down. That's where audible comes in audible, an easy way to listen to books anytime anywhere, while working out walking the dog or doing chores right now. I'm listening to atomic habits by james clear put. I picked right off the best sellers list. I found that it's really help to reinforce positive change, keeping up new habits I set for myself at the beginning of the year. New members can try audible for free for three.

the dates and as a member, you can choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalogue: visit, audible, dot, com, slash, ten percent or text. Ten per cent of five hundred five hundred bets, audible, dot com lost ten percent or text. Ten per cent of five hundred by a hundred. So let me describe the beginning of the metaphor of stand, make it in front of the mirror there. What a ways to do this. You don't therapy as one if you ve got a good therapist. Another is meditation What are you recommend for people who are willing who are gutsy enough to actually do that thing you going back to the chest. Move question, I would say, singing to wherever you're bodies, leaning towards theirs different ways, don't stress about it. The other thing

would add, use the other person is a mere find a loved one whose great listener or become a great listener for the other. That I'll help you become a great listen for yourself, like you said that there be can be hearing for the therapist, learn to be a good therapies for others. In that way, you'll cultivate compassion for yourself to say all were also human, so frail, and we have all these idiosyncrasies and feelings it's ok! I can still love this person despite their failings, dispersion being another person, this person, being you yeah, it's all the same. Where do you fall on this? question of do you need to learn to love yourself, for you can love other people. I think it's a moment to moment the answer and on what the moment requires. It's a virtuous or vicious cycle. So again, like I won't have an answer cosette. I just need to see the person in front of you see what their struggling with a nudge them in the right direction

oh, maybe. The way that I would refer the question than would be is fear coming up in such a way that its blocking your capacity to feel connected to the other person or to yourself and that's another key idea that I think that trauma as a field has really helped. Teach me is that through these two competing cells, the fierce survival self, which is very ego protective and creates divisions since, like what's running rapid and our society right now, the other ring energy and that the human icing energy There's the open, hearted curious, complex and can tolerate ambiguity? Doesn't need a black and white answer that state of mind which is harder to define, and it's like present moment and second cairo's forces Kronos as well, and so it's always the of like what state of mind my in right. Now, that's a better question then, but

comes first, loving yourself or letting the other. Are you in an open state of mind, because then, when you're in that open state of mind, loving yourself and loving other become one in the same? Who are kairos and chronos greek terms for time, chronos being scheduled time that creates rushing and treats demands and kairos is essential time being with another person. Ideally, hopefully we achieve this where you and I we lose time and we're just like in our heads together and we're getting to know each other in a deep way. A word that of used. Quite a ban has come up repeatedly in this conversation in it's on my list of things to ask. You is love. What do you mean by love? Because the word is loaded? I talk about this lot. It's a loaded term and people can go right too. You know tom cruise saying you complete me in a wrong com, but you can also think about it in a broader, more capacious way more down to earth way.

So what do you mean when you say love? I don't know, I presume your honesty now. Let me try to walk back my faintness one. It's! I love my boys so much. It spells out of my heart. It's a physical thing, I'm like using with arthur toasting ram holding my boy and then with some of my patients. I feel similarly it's just like this there's something divine about it, spiritual, it's just like stand in amazement at their beauty and their humanness in their foibles, and it's like a mix of experience. Sometimes it's just a residence with another in wishing them well rooting them on? I do not just whenever I feel that my heart is somehow connected to theirs. Maybe that's the best I can give you. I try not to use ideas. I know it note that it feels like my heart is pulsing we're very different jobs.

choice but to use ideas. So we try one on you and see if your card pulses with it, I've had to think of love. As you know, anything that fits within the human capacity to care it can be romantic, that can be the strings come in and around com can be parenting. Your boy, your son, my son, but also to be somebody, I see on the street to fell down or anybody I see on the street anywhere. It can also just be my desire for Vladimir Putin, who I disagree with vehemently to be a happier person, so he stopped being such a jerk yeah. I, like all those the thing that came to mind when you were talking, was a woman that I just met and it a hard moment in a training that we are in, and I saw her little girl and using parts metaphors, and I was so proud of her little girl for standing up for herself than just fell in love with her in that moment, for how brave shoe

I too, like us tender for herself and at the end of our training. I just started girl and I just told you- I loved her- made very complex feelings about her, but you're right. It was that I cared about her as a human being. Do you ever have trouble mustering the love where you're having a bad day or you have a patient, is just annoying of course. Yes, yeah, that's really telling actually, and then I enquire about what is happening between us that this is happening there. You'll say I'm having trouble feeling for you right now: that's a tough one Sometimes I have set things like that when I that they can hear it in the way that I mean where we ve done enough work where we're just processing what's happening between us, but other people get deeply.

Didn't, walk out my office. So it's a really high risk thing, but I've been able to use things like that successfully one of the very first ways I learned this there's another anecdote. There was a woman who had come in really late at night and she was talking and I yawned and then she said you did it again. I said what I do and she said you gonna go. I now invite up so bored right now, which was I shoot, risk. me too ambitious. I could cry and then she said you know what I don't want to talk today. I don't want to say anything real, so I've been like just talking around you, hoping that you wouldn't notice just tearing up- and I said I noticed now- and I'm not bored now you're finally here and it became resin

again. I haven't done a lot of zen training, but it reminds me a little bit of hearing stories about zen masters, doing unconventional things to jar, their students back into the spontaneity and freshness that is so valued in the zen tradition. Yes, exactly, I dunno if you and stuffy talked about this, but one of the most controversial things that she talks about in her book about our therapy is that I stupid and someone on amazon like remarked on how inappropriate that was. But that was a spontaneous thing that emerged between us and pardon me could be deeply troubled by. How unprofessional and unethical that is, But that's not me, looking in front mirror again lay in my nakedness and trend of love myself in that, and so I ve been thinking a lot about where they can from and part of it is that I would say those things when I saw her suffering and she was like getting lost in her suffering and I'd call

I heard remarks like I'm never going to find love or you know those kind of things that people say in the scientific term. It's I get depressed, jenny thought so I'd say: you're been so stupid, that's so stupid. But what I was feeling was just like this compassion for her suffering and pardon me, I think, was uncomfortable with how much I was like sending love to her. In that moment. I wanted to just hold her and just be like. Oh, it's, okay, it's okay, but I'm not allowed to I'm figuring out how to deal with my own. Energy, and I use the word that divides us, but it said with affection still and she could tell so she didn't mine and then Even in the audio version. Sheep plays a part rising stupid in schools let's twice today I earned stupid today I got boobs I said that out loud, I didn't even notice, and we joking and it's a way for us to bond and mike come back into the moment. Instead of her being lost in her shift spiral or whatever I call it yet she call it the shit spot or something

that's your term yeah. What's my patients term and it was so perfectly descriptive to stock. I was laughing. I hope that in a properly when you, when you're relating the story of calling Stephanie stupid, not because I think she stupid there- maybe people the audience who are upset, because siding with you here, but other resize laughing. Is that that's a dynamic that's at play between me and my meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein who often uses unconventional techniques. When I come to him with some big story of my own suffer remember one time I was telling him how writing is. This is so hard? I write books and my sufferings operatic and love love life. He said this Dear, you have that you need to suffer to ride, is just you being stupid, What did I do to you and you heard that I've heard it was great, just knocked me out of it. It's all about, as the buddhist say, skilful means you have to know who you're

student or in your case the patient is. Are they confident enough in your affection, I'm assuming here that that's the deal a confident enough in your affection, so that they know that it's actually playful and mental Hope you enjoy. Are you out of your stork, and so I also come from a family? Were verbal abuse? Was our love language for birthdays? We roasted other, and that was how we showed affection, and I use the term verbal abuse here in a jockey other way. There is no real verbal abuse, so I guess Joseph into its. This gets that we will work well mean, does it and I'm assuming that's. What's going on with you exactly yeah and what I would also add that if, for any reason it actually heard her, then it becomes create fodder for growth and healing cause. Then for her to feel safe enough to say like hey,

fuck. You like. I didn't like that right then, and for me to be able to say, like oh tell me more about that instead of like well, you know, I meant it this way to get defensive to just like be curious about this new thing that just emerged. For some reason: the therapy takes on a life of it's own. It becomes to another joyful, creative extra is another thing you said earlier was to suffering, have a point, and you said that we're still working on this question, but I'd answer- that's come up in your head. Is that the point of suffering is to learn how to love in the midst of great suffering. My recapitulate your point with some degree of accuracy. Yes and it's sufferings inevitable, like the first noble truth, I keep thinking about birth and pregnancy and how painful and life threatening and terrible the process of creating another loved human being is, and in the midst of this terrible pain that

his life, something that we love so much comes from it, and so it's almost like god or the universe or whatever stamped into our birth process, the point of life itself, and you can apply that yourself. We suffer so much at our own hands. Can we use these moments of pain? To learn and how to have a modicum of warfare Is a vr one, the difficult parts of our own personality and to see them as just characters that are trying to help us perhaps on skillfully, and that, if you do that with love, then you birth yourself to a higher level of development. I guess this brings us full circle to the question I asked early on, which is even for people with a c is evil. People who were abused by the people who are supposed to take care of them. This personal d element is still on offer. You see it in your office. People can learn

to live with the worst stuff. That's ever happen to them. The I've once said this really perverse thing. Tat the trauma becomes a gift, even though I would I hate, that I say that because I would never wish anyone to be traumatized, but it can actually become a propelling force for personal growth. There is such a link in the academic filters that term post traumatic growth to actually need that that happens, shall were it not for these horrible things that happened to you, you may not be in the therapists office. You might not be on that meditation retreat. You might not be reading whatever book you were listening to this park asked. If it wasn't for your panic attack, you would not have changed your life and done something. However, this is meaningful for you. You major life more meaningful because of your panic attack. Yes- and I think it's worth perhaps now getting at one-

If your key points which is- and I think I'm quoting you back to you here as I look at my notes here- that it's not getting rid of trauma, it's replacing fear and trauma with love and understanding and openness, so you're not trying to fix, quote unquote anything yeah. That's right! I don't have words it's more of this. I just saw an image of like expansiveness and openness. Maybe sometimes, if I have a word suit, it's like her to carry your trauma with grace whatever. That means, as you talked about openness before, That just brings me back to the cairo Kronos thing and I would ask one of these questions. It mildly annoy you, because I find it so compelling this idea that you know that is two modes we have one would be open and play for curious and the other is. You know all make de flight fight. Freeze fixed you, don't like not open, so here's the annoying.

Heart it all of your experience, and I know everybody's in different situations at different moments, in its chess, etc, etc. But what are some? possible ways we might explore to boost, are cairo's quotient and reduce that of chrome. my answer is gonna, be repeating myself and actually I wanna use you as an example because, throughout this interview you have been exemplifying, This mentalizing, mindful state, because you said. I'm gonna, know you're, not a bad, but it's my job and when you say it's my job at its peak. Europe, having in mind your audience and and you're saying like now met the exciting part, because I've simplified five questions. That's a mental, rising up your own self in registering

where you are so you're doing this incredibly complex thing when I said I'd like seven layers of process happening you as well, I can tell that europe tending to everyone on me, you and your audience at the same time and that's an incredibly difficult thing to do, and my guess is that you must have cultivated that somehow it's not easy, but felt yet. I would want everyone to cheap cultivating their capacity how'd. You do it well, I become old, fifty I've. I've been doing journalism where the say may guys we're both old, but you look great abbot journalists as I was twenty, to answer that and then you know twelve years of notation them lots of therapy and so its work, and I will say is not uncommon for me to walk out of this little studio in a closet in the bedroom. I share my wife and being

pre foul mood, because Bernie semi calories doing this work that I dont often have a lot of bandwidth left. When I leave me that being a little unfair there. So many times I walk out totally invigorated, but it does take a lot of energy. I can't do it all the time yeah, it's our best self, but then we get angry. Sleep, deprived and irritable, and we just flow in and out of that. Why do you talk about the hulk? Am a child psychologist technically, and so I need to figure out ways to describe things in a way: that's digestible for my patients and for the young ones, but I was really struck by the fact that he is the perfect metaphor for our survival brain. The hulk was an abused child abused by his father, saw his father, kill his mother. So

hope is actually jet survival brain on gamma radiation and the reason why it's such a great metaphors, because when we are in survival bring our capacity for complex thinking disappears or capacity for language, especially for men, disappears and which is exactly what happens to hulk. He only sees thread or safety. Are you going to trust or no trust. And we can use words to explain himself and the other thing that is incredibly important to know, especially for working with kids with trauma is that if you try to discipline them hulk. If you tell the hope, if you throw another tank you're going to get a time out, the horse can get really mad and experience that as a threat and it's going to make them even bigger and stronger and rage even harder.

So I'm really combating our old ways of using forceful energy to get kids to act right, that's a huge trigger for me, because I was one of those kids who was always acting out and getting detentions like multiple detentions in a row, because I wouldn't stop raging, and the only thing you can do is to give hawke time to calm down and then the last thing that's so important. Is that banner hates being the hulk like once he's calm, he looks at all the devastation he's wreaked and he's he just hates what he's done an all people trauma hate themselves. They hate themselves for not having stopped funds from happening to them and they hate themselves for all the ways that they try to cope with the trauma that they experienced the drug addiction in acting out and avoidance of the impact on their lives. So self loading is a key experience.

we're trauma, and the hawk is not a bad guy. The hockins, whenever favorite superheroes, kids love em, said it reinforces the idea that you had to start to learn to respect and admire the hawk cause, he's certain the your life for a long time. He's catchy safe, he's gotten you this far, so don't make the hawks violence with violence, because when you shoot the be only get stronger at angry, an you, I think, are saying this in relationship to our own inner hawk and the hulks of other people, absolutely so with children, for example, my son, seven, it isn't, I should throw them later,

terrorists. But we dug a time out is better than a huge punishment right there at the moment and a time out and with the right energy right son, you really upset, I think it's important for us both to calm down, because my favorite story. Was that an eight year old boy, you citizens dad dad you're helping out, you need to come down and so did levels the playing field we all have hawks in us, and so you might say to your son, I'm starting to get this regulated, I'm getting really upset I think I need to take a step back and calm down. Do you need to take a step back and calm down, or you might say to them? It looks like you're too upset. Why don't you take a break and we'll revisit this when you're calmer? It really helps you

track whether or not he's hulk cause you can't reason with hulk or he's like banner. I was talking bright before this interview with my executive coach, jerry Colonna is I've actually been on the show a couple of times and he, talking about the hulk as well and he was using without naming the internal family systems model, this model of dick schwartz idea of naming you're the various characters in better competing for salience in your mind at any given moment and he was saying will think of the hulk, your capacity for anger as being part of the adventures, the Andrews thorn iron man. Captain they're all like working to shave down the hulks various

and it sees in there working in unison- it's not always perfect, but there is a way to put the hulk in context. He mean to be able to channel his energy for good and not for rampant destruction. Yeah, and to note that there are other parts of you that might be able to calm down the hulk when is raging in perhaps not take you in the right direction. and the way that I would do that is to first honour the hulk say you're up, because you think I need you and I'm. I know you love me so my said you're going to destroy the whole world for me and then you would be saying I have other ideas for how we can get this done. I have other strategies. Are you ok with that? Can we let iron man try first you to make sure that he feels empowered and in a cooperative relationship you and that's why I didn't slightly disagreeing with the notion of just trying to keep em contained

It hasn't a little bit of an adversarial relationship to it. Yes, Gerry Adams I am probably mingling what he meant, but that I took from it that the other vendors they love the hawk there really happy to have on their team, but you know they're all working in unison to bring out the best in each other and to achieve a single that helps to to know what you're trying to accomplish. I wish you had your pack hassan video, because people and read your face. It really helps what are you reading right, nap? There's a lot of playfulness and kindness coming out of it. You're still trying to do your work, but you're yeah, it's not all hard you're, not laboring in a hard way. Do you know what I mean? I appreciate that I think we are going to start releasing the video of nice not for that regime that has not been

I'm vowel me trying to present myself as some master you get to see or because mostly the camel not beyond me, but crochet, where you're saying hey. What's going on for me, usually that I'm trying to simultaneously think about where we could go next, while also listen closely enough. I'm sure this is what you do in therapy. I do less of what you have to do, so you have a hundred job, because I don't have the two right where it goes. Next I can just follow. but then the hard part comes whenever I want to say something: that's risky right. You use a phrase in describing you're gonna, be careful with where'd. You didn't like me, describing you as having an approach, but your style. Let's say you use the phrase. nurturance being known, can you unpack that

the primary injury of trauma is that you're not seen you yourself, don't matter and so part of what I'm trying to kill people. The sense that they matter moment to moment twenty two seymour I'll say more, but it's me quoting you back to you the place, a therapist to get to is the place where there is no need to say anything else for the therapist. It's just holding hugging the patient. With your gaze, just compassion and love silence, yeah, that's good! I like that. I think that when we're at our best, we don't need to be therapists to provide that two other people. Absolutely not I want to get out of the therapy office

I feel like I'm in my generative years and are fifties where I've learned enough that it's time for me to start showing what I've learned and what I ve learned about. Therapy is just about learning how to love exquisitely Coming up, I'm gonna ass doktor home what he means by love exquisitely the words he just use, and will also talk about whether the word trauma is being over used these days, as some people allege, will also circle back to his thesis about the profound importance of what he calls. Compassionate curiosity after this. again here to tell you about a protest that seeks to slow down, reflect and turn inward. It's called talk easy and it's a different kind of weekly interview show host SAM fragoso off.

Space for guests to share how they arrived at the place they are today and express where they hope to go to morrow, invites actors, writers, activists and musicians to come to the table and speak in ways. You probably haven't heard from them before Guess sprain from genoa, monet to Margaret atwood, to Malcolm Gladwell, to glorious dinah. That sounds eclectic well, that is that Design. Sam is driven by a mix of curiosity, compassion and research. Talk. Easy is a place where people sound, like people enjoy talk easy with them forego so available wherever you get your protests what's up here, saline russian, while here and I'm so excited to be hosting a brand new podcast from ten percent happier called more than a feeling which is all about the mysterious world of emotion. are we think about it? How many emotions you go through on any given day and you always understand where they're coming from her? What to do them in the seas

we're. Bringing you tons of super interesting stories that ask some pretty thought provoking questions like is jealousy always bad. How do I face my biggest fear? Are women real more emotional than men and are you ever too old to be a boy? Band fan were also get it's off to plenty of emotional experts, including psychologists and their peace, as well as airline pilots, musicians and even hairdressers to help us better understand our inner world of emotions. I hope you will join in and listen to more than a feeling wherever you get your bad love exquisitely. What do you mean by that to hold another person in their fullness to really see them and to know them to not judge them? It's that empathy thing again,

I can hear listener saying. How do I do that? I find myself in conversations and I'm itching to look at my phone or Zito committee. Homicide or whatever great ok, so, looking at your phone, then I would say something is happening in the interaction that feels deplorable, that you want to move away from. So what is the thing that you're trying to move away from and then try to understand why you need to move away from that. Is it because it's a part of you that you haven't learned to accept yet

or just something that you find reprehensible and then what do you do with that? Do you love his person enough to say that I really dont like that? You're doing this sometimes there's this conflict and ass tat. I want to say what you're doing is not good for you, but I wanna respect your on autonomy in and so instead, I just had to I check out and look at my phone and, I would say, take the risk of leading with love or trying to like a manifest love with good intention and some people. if that, if they know where you're coming from and then, if you're expecting a homicidal rage, then I find that to be an incredibly loving thing to experience, sometimes because the stories that you hear the trauma therapists are outrageous, and sometimes the only proper response is to say like that is horrible, like I'm so pissed that this happened to you and that becomes an expression of love and honoring and acknowledging and putting the right emotion to the back,

I know you don't like skills and tactics and all that stuff, but you actually just gonna gave as one which is take risks. I promise I know a lot of skills and tools, but I just find out whenever people start listing them, they come out empty and sterile inside. Rather people discovered by the way that you heard my story and then use at our side taking risk. Then you pack shit for yourself in a way that it stuck for you think about. Risk is scary and at three o clock on a tuesday I may now fear

like taking a risk in a conversation, my wife and then you slow down again and look at all the parts and say ok. Why am I not interested in doing this right now and then he added depending on what your answer is. I wouldn't know what to say next, yeah again, like give just give me the beginning at the mid, came in chess, and I don't know where to go next right. Yes, I have you, don't know enough of where the ports stance exactly, but it activates. My curiosity ballot

let's break down what's happening and allow yourself to be curious about what this process is. Instead of being like I'm a horrible husband and I should be better or whatever just like. Oh interesting, there's, probably a good reason why I feel this way right yeah. So it's back to the uber strategy, non strategy, Cairo's approach of just openness, warmth, curiosity Compassionate curiosity, yeah, that's that's the banner. We want a marked by remaining where you are, and the chess board at a given moment, their old baby lots of strategies you can employ. But if you keep a flag in mind. You were in the right direction, exactly keep it simple, simple, typical director is there anything I should have asked but fail to ask I'm running through your needs and the needs of your audience. I don't know why did you just

right now when we're getting toward the end of our time. I usually like to ask people that question, because it opens people up to say. Oh yeah, I really want to talk about this and you haven't give me a chance to see I didn't, have an agenda, so I don't think I haven't lingering things that I want to say. really just thought this landed for you and how you were seated at ashcombe, landed, I mean you said this unwilling to have dinner, with only now that I was able to restated, I think, but some clarity that the goal that you have is to help us help yourself. Add all of us get To this cairo's mode to realise that isa mode that success in half and do our best to find ourselves in that mode, and yes, there baby tools and tactics and skills, etc, etc. But that's seems to be the most important point. That's what landed for me. I hope that's what you mean:

to have led the and and responses that that I have in like in the model model discourse about being self energy and You know that whenever you have these four seas, I forget, but I discovered those foresees as well like com connected, curious, compassionate and all their survival. Stuffed seems to be more a press have avoided as wholly acquisitive yeah acquiring accumulating achieving. We do have a few more minutes I'll try something. I know DJ mentioned that he mentioned to you dj for the listeners is an ace producer on this dj kashmir and he d J, and I have noted of late there's been a kind of many spate of articles in the new yorker. There are times about trauma, as a word

and interesting. People raising the question of whether we ve had served linguistic creep here, where the key word is being used. Perhaps too often, as somebody said, if everything is trauma is anything He mentioned dj, did that you mention this to you and you didn't really take the bait on it. But here I go take a risk. Asking you now whether you have any thoughts on this line of argument and before I answer the question, which I will I'd love for you to know why you're taking this risk. Yes, I know why why curiosity just curiosity well, how case for sure curiosity about I this may be. maybe bad, maybe both the baby. I shouldn't be speaking in such dichotomy terms anyway. But I have a real allergy to boilerplate language,

jar again, yeah me too, because I'm not a mental health professional, I'm not an meditation, grew just a journalist right, a storyteller and If I can add, any value is to talk about things in the freshest possible way. I love me too, and so I hear trauma, all the time. There are many words I hear all the self love love my no vote, reality wherever all these words are incredibly important but through rapid. Should they become wrote and may be empty and cliche, and so I'm curious, whether trust, is in danger of falling into that category. and suddenly we are in complete agreement and I'm remembering the phrase take risk as your tool. It's the same thing like if it said first, then it's empty and try just like you

can become try, but what we want is for people to feel the impact of the discovery of these ideas again and again, even if they know it, it's feel so good to be like. Oh my god. Yes, it's always this answer. Isn't that fun? It's always this the question about whether traumas becoming try. My answer is just like her. I wonder who is using it wrong under whose tired of it? Why are they tired of it, and I can come up with a few ways in which people can use trauma to justify their behaviors or there's a way that they can? Where does a badge or people who are sick of it, because they can tell that it's moving away from authenticity where it becomes a barrier, it becomes another mask in a way. I'd, be curious, but when a person feels that way and wide, they feel both. Why they're using it as a weapon nor as a tool to build walls and too

right war when they wanted just like pushed away, I think at all because its somehow compromising true, authentic poignancy and the human connection, so the problem wouldn't be with traumas. Word. It might be if people are using the word to create walls yet not be real and that I would agree with that would be a problem. To be clear, I dont have a view on this. I just think it's interesting, I'm not taken sides here if there are even sides, it just more an interesting question that

I have noticed. The word does get used a lot more and more, but I'm not like upset about that yeah and I I know that it's been a good thing for the world to realize that promise, rampant and bessel Van der kolk book has been on the new york times bestseller list for many years now, and it's helping people understand their hurt more and to wonder about themselves. It's a useful framework to increase self exploration and understanding of other people. Yes, bessel van der kolk is the author of a book called the body keeps the score and yes. He is very much helped improve public understanding of trauma and I think the question that sometimes gets asked in return. Is you know? Where do we draw the line between trauma and just regular adversity? And it's an interesting question, because What is regular adversity and how is it received by the person news going through? It seems very potentially complex

see for me the way that I would reframe that curiosity would be like. When do you need to make a division right? Who needs to make a division right? I guess the division might become important, because there are I'm just theorizing here, and I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this, but there are people. Like Stephanie, where seventy four, where we can, I think, largely agree What she endoored was something that I think most people be comfortable. Saying yeah, that's trauma mean Her parents abandoned her. There was all kinds of abuse from very very young age, Are there other people using the word trauma where? Well, I don't know if everybody would agree that that's so adverse first of all, there is actually amazon reviewer, who says she's just being Not everyone agrees that what she's experience was trauma? Well, ok, maybe all reasonable people, but whose decided was reasonable and

again for me when I heard that outside what have you been through my dear person, what can you not face yourself? Why do you have such a strong reaction to the story? Interesting and then I forgot the rest of it. Why that the line is spinning, well only that it would somehow have deleterious negative effects for people with quorum, quote real trouble, If everything's trauma then are you how diminishing the power import. In validity of people who have quorum quote real trauma, I would agree that the active, diminishing another person's experience can be harmed. But, on the other hand, our people who traumatized their experience and they use it in a relational moment to solicit empathy or outrage, but it's an avoiding thing

So again, like I dont have a general answer, because I'm really cares about how its being used at the moment- and I try to figure that out- and there are some paste the who will cry, fills dramatic and feels like a solicitation of outrage. instead of like opera, all in your pain and suffering experience, I guess where I'm taking this is that this question about trauma creep is checkers and real life is chess young and the question of twenty figure out. What it is is survival brain is Kronos, it's the device is black and white thinking. One of my favorite naruto palms. I can't quote it cuz, it's all about like the ocean and asked me why different things in the ocean do things and it ends with the images of him. Waking up and he's naked caught in the wind.

in a net in the wind or something like that, and what it does to me is that it creates this is of like open surrender liking crawled into the universe naked But enjoying joining the mystery, the complexity of that wonder in amazement, and that's why I want us to land and in that love each other in and see that each person's perspective adds radiance to this whole complexity of our experience, cheesy wax weird Some people, people darling- you really provide those in real life. Now I've at this has been a pleasure, so of love and all your parts from this side of the zoom go they to use as well. I can feel you now you haven't fund. If people I suspect there will be not a few people who

here this, they may want to learn more about you. How can they do so? I have a All that I rarely update you can subscribe to newsletter there I am inundated with calls for therapy and I have like at least like a forty person waitlist, which would take like five to seven years to get through, so I'm not accessible, and I find that to be painful and that's why I want to do podcasts or something I am trying my best to be discoverable. But it's going to take awhile just say. One place where you are discoverable is in his book, so we'll put a link to that in the show notes, as well as your blog and just say. Finally, thank you with such a pleasure to meet you at. You did a great job with this. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to Jacob harm. That's great, One quick note before I: let you go here a note about an opportune,

to get involved in an exciting new teepee h project, we're looking for listeners and ten percent happier app users who are interested in answering some questions about the challenges and benefits of their experiences with mindfulness in meditation participants may appear in a ten percent happier course onward challenge in the future. All levels of parents are welcome. If you might be interested contact us at casting at ten percent dotcom, that's casting at ten percent outcome, thanks as well to the folks so hard on the show, Gabrielle sacrament, DJ, cashmere, Justine davy can buy comma maria work Samuel Johnson gent point. We also, I should say, get our audio engineering from the good folks over at ultraviolet audio. We'll see you all on friday for a bonus. Meditation from dying winston on self criticism, self judgment and unworthiness but these are resident themes and for those of you from whom those themes do not

tonight. I would like to borrow your mind, permanently, and then make a little ask here, if you like our show- and you want to support the work we are doing. There are some quick and very. the things you can do to help us out. First, please leave us five star rating and review. Those are really helpful. There's a reason why podcast hosts ask for them all the time. Second, please fill out a short survey over at wondering dot com, slash survey. These surveys really help us up our game, its incredibly useful for us to hear directly from you the listener. So if you have time, please feel that out and speaking of wondering, because we ve had some questions about our new deal with wondering just to say here, episodes of ten percent happier have always been available for free wherever you get your podcast and that is not changing, even though we have now signed up with wondering. However, if you want to hear new episodes one week early, you can download amazon music and get them there or

if you want to hear new episodes early, an ad free, you can subscribe to wonder he plus in apple pod, casts or The wandering app, ok, so lots of new options. We ve been getting a lot of questions about this so and a clear that up don't forget to take the survey. If you ve got time that would really up happy. Listening, I'm being jones, and I grew up in a small town called jackson tennessee and when I grew up was totally normal for people to have friends who are politically different from them. In fact, when my best friends in high school was a guy named kitty heartily, The white guy was concerted. This guy loved ronald Reagan, I hated ronald Reagan, a we would just debate. argue about it all the time, but we were friends. You know I really miss that. I miss up feeling that you could just debate and disagree without distrusting somebody without disrespecting each other, and I just want to bring that back, and that is the point of the uncommon ground,

podcast. You probably got some people in your life. Who used to be able to talk to you. Now you can't everything is just too polarized. I think there is still a chance that a better conversation in america, so lookin for hope and real solutions join me every wednesday on uncommon ground from amazon, music and we fight we fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're, not gonna have a country anymore. On january, sixty thousand descended on the. U S, capital, on trumps, urging yet it'd be there will be while the january six wasn't the beginning, and it certainly wasn't the end of the story from pineapple

great studios wandering in amazon, music comes a new podcast mini series called will be wild that looks into the human stories left out of the january. Sixth, the headlines are just kind of walk through the fire is what we're going to organize day and then run at twelve people and we're going to tell the story it where's the four year long effort to bring a talker see to america and what it means for the future of democracy follow will be wild wherever you get your pod cats or you can listen early on amazon, music or early and ad free by subscribing to wonder, replaced in apple thought casts or the one to react