The this. Is the ten percent happier podcast dan harris hey. well. I think many, if not most not all of us worry about money. Sometimes I certainly do and little sheepish to admit it. Given how fortunate I've been in my life, and yet I still worry about finances quite a bit, actually my today have been one of the most provocative, voices in my head when it comes to how I think about speed, being the money I'm lucky enough to earn and, by extension, what my obligations are as a human, we'll mechanical is an associate professor of food sophie at oxford university in one of the founders of something called the effective, altruism movement? I'm gonna, let him defy now. But, as I understand it, one of their core arguments is that we all ought to consider. Giving away a significant chunk, maybe ten percent be way more of our income, because

as we know to a mathematical near certainty that several thousand dollars can save somebody's life. The beauty and the genius of mc castles approaches that he's not at all strident or self righteous or dogmatic about any of this, just as the Who does the casket frames? His message in terms of both collective well being and person self interest, as you can hear him describe, he practices what he pray, his and he believed his life is way happier. As a result, I should say not the only one who had been moved by mechanical message. You may remember, if Months ago we had the meditation teacher matthew, brand silver on the show, and he got to equip them. when talking about the influence macaskill has had on him. For some reason. I was in some kind of random lottery drying. I won a session with wilma, cast skull and I was on a skype with her. and he's a you,

priest philosopher, but just in seeing his face there on skype,. I started crying because I could sense that this is somebody who is asking the question of what it is to be a body sat father. He would never put it in that language I dont think, but to me it is. This is like what is the modern bodhisattva and I think that can take a lot of forms, but for me, the most important piece, is added lures the heart into deeper comment and maybe a little bit more renunciation of little dead, more commitment to caring for the welfare of others. So today we're gonna talk about the whys and wherefores of active, altruism, how to get started on a very manageable and doable level which, by the way, did require you giving away most of your income and the benefits for both the world

and your own psyche, but that's not all, because we're Also, as a new book out that we're gonna talk about the book is called what we owe the future it makes a case for what he calls long term ism I'll. Let him to find that more accurately that I can do, but its essentially developing the mental habit of thinking about the welfare of trajectory generations, which will argues, is not only good for the species it also good for you right here in right now, but whether humans are really wired to consider future generations practical tips for thinking. Acting on long termism, his argument having kids and his son surprising, take on how good our future could be if we play our cards right right now, we'll get started with mechanical. After this one last thing before we get, And here s our view, no, I retired, from my day job last october, I used to be an actor

and on a b c news- and that means I've got a lot more control over my own schedule, which means this summer. I've taken a grand total of three weeks of vacation, which is unprecedented and glorious I hope you have been able to get some time to yourselves this summer. Our companion, meditation app ten percent happier can help you preserve some of the peace and mental space you might feel on vacation. Even when you come home and life gets more complicated, especially one fall arrives to make sure I have a chance to try it out we're offering ten percent happier subscriptions at a forty percent discount until september. First, we do not do discounts of this size all the time and, of course nothing is permanent. As we say in buddhist circles, so get this deal before it ends by going to ten percent dot com, slash forty, that's ten percent! One word all spelled out dot com, slash four zero for forty percent off your subscription looking for more control over your child education cage, while dot com help.

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Will macaskill welcome to the show thanks As for having me I'm finally, I can think of so few people who I've talked about more but never met, and you are on a little box in front of me, may complemented by that. Thank you. I first encountered your work through our mutual friend sam harris host of the making sense podcast and the waking up It would just so provocative to me, personally, so I'd like to, start there at what I think, you're, probably best known for and then move on to your new book. Can we start with just a definition of effective, altruism sure, so effective, altruism is about twenty use, your time and money as effectively as possible, the world a better place says it's about thinking hard about.

solving all the problems that the world faces. One other thing I can do which will have the biggest positive impact. and then using at least some of your money, perhaps ten percent of your ankle, or some of your time so perhaps altering nuclear. So You can really put right, doing most good into practice. This as part of that is, I think important. We should discuss it, but it's the second part of that. That is to me at least, very challenging and I'd like to get you to say more about all of it? But let's just start on the at least what struck me most powerfully, which is that being an effective altruist, isn't just about optimizing for the most effective charities? It's the rearranging potential, your entire life and career around this idea. You talk about giving away ten percent of your money, but I know you personally, give way more than ten percent of your money, and so let's, to start on that in terms of what is that,

she now for dialing down your personal consumption in this way, sure enough that, within the effect of our community, is a big spectrum. So there's lots of people who give say tempest and that's what they do and they very welcome in the community, the slots, people who give more and you're right I am one of those people so, depending on exactly how you count my income at somewhere between twenty five percent or even ninety percent or more of my income that I give away, and why do I do that? Well, I think it's two reasons on one hand, I don't think it makes an enormous difference to my wellbeing. Honestly, my best guess is that the net impact is positive, I am actually a happier person as the result of the giving I do then they would be if I spent more of that money on kind of luxury goods, but then the second aspect Just the truly enormous amount of good that you can do by targeting donations, the most highly effective nonprofits and that's a across many cause areas

so within global health and development? It costs a few thousand dollars to save a life That's not made up number that, on the basis of extremely vague of us, the search in evidence So that means that if you have born into a rich country, you can save, does so even hundreds of lives over the course of your lifetime. That's this phenomenal fact about the world, and Perhaps you can do even more good again, I think, by focusing on particularly neglected issues that might impact our long term future. You can make a real difference to the entire trajectory of human civilization as it pretends to the rationale here. You kissed it there, but I want to go deeper, because this is the stuff that's pretty electrifying radicalizing, I think for people can tackle about who Peter singer is and his analogy of the drowning child, so Peter singers kind of

and father, effective, altruism and he's a moral philosopher that, since the nineteen seventeen was making the following argument, which is imagine someone who's walking past a shallow pond and they see in that, shall upon the child who appears to be drowning and they think oh, I could just region. I can just wait into the pond. I could save that child say that child's life. However, among this way to a job interview, I'm wearing this really nice, the suit cost me actually like three thousand dollars. I don't want to get the suit muddy, so I'm just going to leave the child. I'm just gonna walk on by now, would we evaluate that person well in model philosophy

I think we were kind of all agree that letting a child around will be a douche move for another technical term in vital philosophy. In fact, it's like perfectly obvious perfectly common sense, morally speaking, that the loss of a few thousand dollars does not justify letting a child to in front of you. In fact, supposing that that job, you know you miss out on the job that you could have happened as an interview and it would have increased your salary by ten percent. Again doesn't compare to the loss of a child. Now here's the kicker, if I think that you have a moral obligation to lose several thousand dollars or more in order to save a child's life in front of you. Where is the morally relevant difference between that and the child? That is. dying of malaria in sub saharan africa that, statistically speaking, you can save with a few thousand dollars.

and Peter singer argues that I think very convincingly that there isn't a model of elephant difference. It psychologically different because that child in sub saharan africa less salient to us, but more speaking, we over time doing the same thing as walking past that child founding the shell upon so now we have reached the rub. because when I heard you say this guy started talking about everybody. I knew and I was, I don't want to say surprising, assist surprising but certainly did scape my notice how I was met the universal agreement. And universal rejection, yet presume, The agreement is on the theory and village she is on actually doing anything about it. I am I right. Yes, you are right, and it's this it is striking thing into the history of ideas that Peter singer was making. These are,

since the early nineteenth seventies and the kind of happiness a moral philosophy, People who worked on this was a lot of people. Most people just thought. This was kind of eight and almost no one did anything about it, and that was how it things felt for me as well. I discovered his arguments and when I say He and I had many years. I found them convincing many years just feeling bad about myself not really doing much, and then it when I met another philosopher, Toby awed, who was present ideas into practice and planning to give away, of his income over his life and had found extremely effective non profit that he felt we're gonna do an enormous amount of good. and was not being himself up about it. Actually here Thinking that this is a great thing that could be doing- and that was very inspiring to me- here's, a different analogy which is supposed, that one day you have discovered a burning building and

kind of inspired. You run kick the door down, save a child and that burning building, that would be a pretty meaningful moment in your life. You know my brother saved women from drowning when he was seventeen and everyone talks but he went toward his school you, my granddad, was bursting with five, I'm sure. If I asked him, he would say there was one the most meaningful moments in my life, but given the way the world is. It's like you can do that every few months, it's like you know in january, you rescue the child from burning building in may you say something drowning in october then someone's choking and knew the heimlich maneuver, and that just keep happening over and over again, you would think like what have I had this remarkable life that actually that's just the situation. We find ourselves in that's the sort of life that one have just by using your money in a different way, and so there's an object

some kind of flame on this, which is like we have a moral duty to help, and I think that is correct, but there's also just a different fame, which is look just reflect in your own values. And what will you would think of as a good life say on your deathbed looking back and you actually have the capacity to do in an hour, mt amount of goods- that's the kind of uplifting inspiring thing, but is it really like? Do you personally, you will get the dopamine hit if that's even the right neurotransmitter to be discussing in this context, but I'll, stick with it anyway. Do you personally get that dopamine hit because its like you are actually dislodging a chunk of porterhouse egg from somebody's esophagus. You know like that, isn't actually happening. You have the m and awareness that you're sacrifice financial He is saving lives.

It's but you don't see it play out in front of you sure, so I certainly don't get the same kind of psychological high. Of that I imagine I would get if I saved the life of someone front of me. Why do get, though, is a kind of deep reassurance, so you know on and off. I've had to passionate desire anxiety for most of my life, many many years one thing that is very reassuring at lower moments. His just like well. At least have done this. You know that fact, awareness of like look it's just literally true that there are people who life who would not be alive were it not for the fact of my donations that's pretty reassuring thing and yeah that leads, to, I think alike, deeper, more holistic, peace with low I'm kind of meaning in life outside I buy that completely

and I wonder whether there is an end extra infusion of meaning around being part of a community of people doing this together. That's absolutely true, so it's almost like that's a substitute so you: don't get the kind of immediate feedback or towards fun. Being on the ground and giving out bed nets or giving out de worming tablets, or you know other good things you could be doing. But there is this large community, like many thousands of people who engaging in a sort of work, giving at least ten percent of the income or more and there you get social support, social, the words and that just really, They are surely casino, where social animals and the fact that you're getting and encouraged to do good things and people think more highly of you. You know that helps to he's a little bit about what the implications are practically for your life. Are you

taking fewer vacations, going out to your restaurants, what is your lifestyle look like, given that you are giving away, I believe you said before something in the range of twenty five Ninety per cent. Yes, depends exactly how you can't it so if you're, just looking at me, university income than its the kind of twenty five. Thirty percent, since everything iron post tax above about twenty six thousand pounds. Now I guess that's about thirty, two thousand dollars that if it has those but then loyalty. Is speaking fees other another area. All of that doesn't even answer. My bank account. You just go slates ter nonprofits, so if you count that than the figure gets a lot, higher to arts of there is an opportunity cost for you. In other words, you could be doing a bunch of stuff without money for yourself and I'm not somebody who uses selfishness and fully in the pejorative. You know I mean I think there is an argument to take care of. You do you never miss those opportunities.

Not really I mean one thing: is I never really got used to a kind of high flying lifestyle? So you asked about myself, so I undoubtedly cosy house with two roommates, who I love daily I dont have a car, but I also don't need a car. I do take vacations covered made it a bit more could by including vacations interesting places. So, I have particular love kind of india, lanka, but that's perfectly possible give my budget, I don't stay and super fancy places. When I go back. I don't think I need to, and then I dont really by material possessions, very often the kind of big purchases ive made over the last that's a year and a half one was big. What was weaker and another was kind of an analysis, a keyboard. Into music. But again those aren't like large parts of my kind of personal expenditure, I really think I miss out on kind of buying more material goods can you make about my life? Is that I'm going to try my best to kind of live in accordance kind of with these principles,

At the same time, I like travelling a lot for work and things, and that makes my kind of life certainly somewhat different than I was expecting it to be, but when I'm not engaging in business saddle and so on then yeah, I'm living in oxford with my two limits in this cosy house- and you know, I'm swimming in the nearby lake where light fires and dancing around the fires. This is like a lot of ways of having a very enjoyable life that don't involve large amounts of material expenditure You are young, I dont think you, cracked thirty, yet I'm thirty five. Actually, oh your thirty five. well, I'm old, because the first time I heard you you hadn't cracked thirty, so I apologise for why model just forget assuming european armies. That's compliment anyway, you're, thirty five, I dont- think you're married or have children people listening. This me like I do call me when you ve got a toddler. Yet completely than that, and it is true that I would increase the amount

living on if I were to have kids, so the typical expenditure or average expenditure and a child in the united kingdom of eighteen years is about a hundred. Ninety thousand pounds says about ten thousand pounds per child, so if I were to have a kid than if where to parents involved. You know I would increase the amount I'm living on by like about five thousand pounds per year, but that still not kind of radically changing things. I think again for certainly many people in the audience many people listening in they could give kind of ten percent or more I think another thing I'd say is like even after my giving still in the richest ten percent, maybe ever just five percent of the world's population. I think we really don't open just how well off those of us in richmond he's like the. U s a uk are, and so there is a bit of a thought of well with my giving if I am still in the richest five percent of the world's population, it can't be that much of a sacrifice

ninety five percent of other people who are living on less, let's up some practicality for well who are interested in learning more doing more here? I want to admit from the outset, even though I've been really taken with your ideas I haven't done shit about. And even though there is positive peer pressure coming at me from the mention sam harris Y know, was really acted on it. My wife and I and my larger I give a non trivial amount away to causes. We support, but I don't track it. I don't know if it's ten percent- and I doubt it if I'm honest, sarah, I don't feel great that so, let's talk about how people who are having a similar reaction to me in other words, really energized electrified by your message might be able to take the first steps towards putting it into action. Should so a big thing depends and kind of what,

age in your life. You are because I think it's a lot easier to not go up in terms of amount of consumption than to go up and then go down. So if your early on a nuclear then saying like ok, cool! Well, I'm happier whatever level of income. I have that amount of income, can increase over time, and so I'm gonna Kennedy. Maybe access. That's a natural thing to do more generally, I think that's what people could do is take a kind of either hop in on the giving what we can ten percent pledge if people feel are happy with that, but there's also a kind of a smaller place called the tri giving pledge, given what we can, which is where you can bet you pack, just some percentage of your income that you plan to give over the following year and then after that yeah. You can a chicken and you think, like how was that do think I could do more next year and ideally, you can have tentatively build up to something like ten percent and then at that point, if you want to go further, you can so that's saving think the most natural thing

to do is to kind of take some time take a weekend. The on these ideas think ok over the next year. What percentage do I think I could give? Perhaps you just understanding order right there and then, because then that means You only have to make one decision so yeah. If you're getting a thousand pounds per month in the bank, enter your bank account as a salary, then you take five percent of that and stitched. It immediately goes as a direct debit. Two because your choice and then in a year's time than you think, ok how's, that was that super painful and then can scale up suggested. Fine point on this. There is a website called giving what we can given what we can org and its. Seven thousand people now have pledged at least ten percent of the income. Ok, that is to give in or non trivial, and there are, as you said, there are gradations. You can try something lower, so that's a place where people can go to learn more about how to actually dark doing this giving alongside

that you set up resources for people to learn about where to direct their and in the most effective ways. Can you say a little bit about that fishers giving what we can has recommendations for fatalities in a wide variety, of course, it is within global health and development. The top charity evaluated is give well give welder org and it just as inhuman amounts of search and investigate to identify what other nonprofits that have both exceptionally high levels of for bigger behind them in terms of like exceptionally good evidence base behind the recommendations and exceptionally high cost effectiveness, so you can both be really pretty confident that your money is making difference and that the money will go as far as possible in terms of improving people's well being, and so they have a list of recommended charities. That's linked to one given what we can, but you can also go just directly to that website.

give welder or within cause areas. Things get a little harder because it is not necessarily like individual funding opportunities that could absorbed, but many tens of millions. Of dollars- and so there we tend to instead have a kind of funds model where you can to a fund that is then reallocated by leading experts. Ter can have top places and again you can find out about their own, given what we can talk. There is a real focus on data. In your world in finding out. Where can you give that will have the most impact? One of the concerns that has been raised by outsiders is: is are any tension. When you have a group of from the dominant culture, mostly white folks, running the numbers on these nonprofits. Is it possible for bias creep in their anywhere. I mean for sure I think this is like an enormously important concern, and so

I lie about the way that Givewell is responsive to it. So, firstly, is just to use transferring cash as the baseline and yeah. This is just completely correct, though, is like I have just a very poor understanding or like people in the west and of its country have a very poor understanding, of the needs of people living in extreme poverty is just an extremely different life, and so it You just kind of go in and think oh well. What would be really helpful is of their lacking in food, so I'm going to give them more food or something and interferes with local economy was not really what's needed. An alternative is you just simply transfer cash to the Poreless. People and they can then spend the money on whatever they think is best for them, and it turns out that very often tend moves and fetch loose, because that leaves the choir comes.

That is not something that a nonprofit ever did. I never heard of a nonprofit going abandoned stowing tenuous, but yet that's what many many people and extreme poverty actually need the most. So it's one thing to so to have that as a kind of baseline. A second thing is that I think this worry kind of does favour global health over. other sorts of interventions, because just people can have a wide variety of different preferences, but not wanting to be sick or at risk of death from malaria is just, I think, is the human universal. But then a third thing is just going and just getting information from the people themselves do you're trying to benefit about what sort of things they care about, what sort of trade off the willing to make and again that's what give well does working with like survey firms, essentially that go and say look here:

Do you trade off quality of life against increased quantity of life rather than some women have at your country saying like? Oh, I think saving life is really important and quality of life is not really important or or vice versa. So, instead as much as possible, it's fine to reflect the preferences of the beneficiaries Coming up, wilma cask go on long term ism, the topic of his latest book. Whether human beings are really wired to consider future generations and the false distinction between thing for the good of others and acting to benefit yourself. After this, as you gear up, All! You need the right people on your team to help your small business fire on all cylinders. Linkedin. It is here to make it easier to find the people you want to talk to faster and for free create a free. Outposts in minutes, on linked in jobs, to reach your network and beyond to the the largest professional network of over eight hundred ten million people? Then add your job and the purple hash

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done poorly, I'm sure you know what I'm referring to. Can you tell that story? Yeah, I'm sure you have a filing to the infamous play pump. So this is a great case of not really thinking about what the people you are trying to help actually need so yeah in the le kind of. Nineteen and early two thousands, there was this new development innovation that had a lot of attention and our praise heaped on it, which is the they pump. So the idea was that in areas that had poor access to her water was a normal water pump. You could have a kind of lens. Merry go round, one of the things you can push and then like sail on these spend around you can have that zone Ideas like you would harness the power of children's play. So kindly Seems like a win win, so children with patient play on this merry go round and the force of the medical van spinning with pump clean water from the ground to a tank calve above the paper, and yet this got it like one of the marketplace. Word cheesy

and beyond, say supported it and their water for life tore. It had like all of you, articles written about it like the magic land about and pumping waters child's play. They got a lot of plays and attention, but it was an absolute disaster of a development intervention. Sometimes it was the placing zimbabwe hand, pumps which were more practical and more The local communities whenever asked, did actually want this thing and if you think about the practicalities That's like children, don't wanna play on a merry go round all hours of the day, so instead it they often left to the kind of elderly women of the village were task with collecting water to push this kind of brightly coloured, merry go round and round in land which the task they found just kind of embarrassing kind of demeaning and what's more, it just pump, much less water for greater cost than the kind of much more boring but very effective zimbabwe hand. Pump that could have been used in its place and so this is a story. I kind of lead my book doing get better with about ineffective, altruism, where

Someone was coming in. They had lots of ideas about what they thought would be good. It was very flashy, but they weren't really thinking through look what people actually need. How can we benefit people by as much as possible with the resources we have Do you think, since the advent of effective, altruism, that the nonprofit world has become more effective? And if the answer is yes, do you think this movement that what part of is an important variable in that change. So I think the effective, altruism itself movement itself has grown enormously, where, as I say, many thousands of people are now involved with this, and many major philanthropists have kind of gotten involved with that movement too. So in that sense the answer's. Yes, on the other hand, one of the things that we really thought back twelve years ago was there? Ok? Maybe this will all acts and incentive mechanisms and you'll shift the child in general, in a direction that closer to effect about altruism, so other nonprofits will do that.

And that's happened a little bit but honestly, not very much. I actually think most of the nonprofit well just kind of keeps going as before and sees effect to answer. Mrs weird, intercity, given our really twisty frayed id attitudes and by our referring to those of us in the developed world who are upper middle or high income people or even middle income people, just basically, the global minority of people who are relatively well off given are really frayed. attitudes toward money and a overarching culture, really emphasise is consumption and being up with people you see on social media and capital, engine that works in part by imbue

us, with a sense of insufficiency, given all of those structural forces working against convincing, would give away more of their money. How optimistic argue about the future of this movement that you ve helped to galvanise? I'm feeling pretty optimistic. I think the underlying culture just doesn't actually make much sense like the underlying consumer, this culture, because you just look at the data on the psychology of well yeah and increases, especially given the level that people in that country is that so, certainly the level I might, even after my giving the car waking between increasing and personal happiness is very, very small- is positive. Money does make you a little bit happier by its very small level and in contrast things like what community or part of do you have a sense of greater meaning in life. These are things that have a much bigger impact in your purse,

Well, being so, on the one hand on theoretical grounds is like: why are people optimizing for kids if the prism so much, but then. Secondly, just on a practical level, I mean back in two thousand and nine Toby ordered my colleague and I go funded, given what we can. We had twenty three people who took the ten percent pledge, every couple of weeks. We get another person and that was huge. Those like suckers big accomplishment, whereas now there's just I save many many thousands of people who are doing this, many thousands more. hu, I mean the number of people who donating I give well as now like one hundred thousand people, so many more who are like donating some or using a clear and somewhat of a different way, and I think this is a very clear momentum, a kind of upsurge here I mean I'm not taking anything away from what you've accomplished. I think it's gigantic. And you know tens of thousands of people, as can too many billions of people mean on making up the gold

population, or even the subset, that has the means to do this, and the given structural issues. society, and also just psychologically within Human animal on an individual level. I I'm gonna mangle this quote, but I believe so but he smarter than me once said we not National animals were rationalizing animals and we are wired to justify doing what we want to do even before we started thinking about the wise, and so I did what a push back on you again on your optimism and not to dampen, but just to give you another chance to expound upon it sure I mean, I think, is probably jonathan height, whom if that rationalizing, animal, bathroom and national animal sounds very much like him, but yeah I mean we can also just look at like the amount of money we've moved as well. So you know a really successful nonprofit campaign

and maybe obeys thousands of dollars, a hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last twelve years effect. Relativism as a whole, including give well, has moved well over a billion dollars now to the most effective, nonprofits and police in terms of in expectation, kind of funds that are committed and set aside, then will it like tens of billions of dollars and You know. That's just pretty good ve not been around very long. If you look at a hit city of model change. Normally it takes many decades or even hundreds of years to really It's a model, change and so sure twelve years is a long time when, in the course of a single life, ten thousand people is still small compared to the kind of overall world population. But while change takes time and so maybe I'm not thinking that will convey everyone in the world in the next couple of years, but had no at the end of my lifetime or by the end of the century, is just common sense that you don't know,

if you don't steal, you're, not racist, could it be that the model we got life by the end of essentially is just common sense that that involves using some of your time and money to help other people can partially considered in ineffective. Way as possible yeah. I think we can. I think we ve seen model change happen in the past this just as significant as changes that and in fact, quite a lot more significant, and so that I think, should give us hope for the future too. I find that to be a powerful and moving argument and I hope you're right and it does bring us to your new book, because you're making a long term argument right there and you have a new book, called what we owe the future, which is an ode to what you call long term ism, what it

long term, ism long terrorism is the view that positively impacting the long term future is a key priority of our time, says about taking seriously just how big the future ahead of us might be and how high the stakes, ireland, anything that could impact for long. time and then it's about looking for what events could occur in our lifetimes. That could be pivotal for that entire trajectory of the future and then thinking okay. What can we actually do to positively navigate those challenges in order to make the world better, not just for the present generation, but for you know our grandkids lives and their grandkids lives, and so on are human beings? Why, for this kind of thinking, I think it just depends on the human. I think it's a matter of values, so I don't really think this much of a human wiring. We have certain basic spy, think humans among animals and so

If you look across cultures, yes in the kind of modern hera, you dont get that much in the way of kind of very long term thought. You know. People are very short term focus and maybe that's getting even more extreme at the moment, but in other cultures, that's different. So if you look at kind of many indigenous philosophies, so the iroquois oral constitution, for example the gay and a scour it recommends, that people in their decisions, the laws of the confederacy consider not just at present but the generations that to come in their decision making simile african indigenous philosophy. Seems to have a particular concern for the long term as well, and so yes, perhaps kind of in western consumer of cultures. Where do you think about the next month long term perspective like five years or something I don't think it has to be that way. I think. Instead we can have a mobile attitudes. That is thinking much we'll see

sleep about the very long term, because I think many of these ideas are very common sense. The idea that future generations matter the benefits at the same way whether they occur in one year or ten years or a hundred years. I think people of any attuned to that and it just a more matter of what society like tend to focus on you think the answer in terms of getting buy in for long term, ism on a wider level is structural or individual. I actually think the first thing we need is cultural change and If I slept at all you mean changing, political institutions cares the issue, which is that, with some other sorts of social movements to take women suffrage, for example, you have activists like women, have equal rights to men, What we can do to give women more political power is giving them the vote, and that was enormously effective. Can't do the same feats generations. There are things you can do to try to tweak democracy to bacon concerned.

future generations, but I will always go via proxy of people in the short term, taking the responsibility to act on behalf of future generations, and that means that suppose you sat up some panel that will consider the interests of each generations and try and take action unless there is genuine concern for the future among the electorate, then any such panel? Any such implementation will be co by special interests. So that's the kind of situation we face and that's why I think in the first instance, what we really need is cultural change and then once we ve got that political changes can follow and be robust how'd. You change the culture. You can stop by writing a book and then going on protests la ten percent, a heavier, and hopefully hopefully that has some effect. So yeah I mean, I think one thing is just. I want to change culture by making good ally

it's and so obviously not just me. Many of my colleagues slick, Toby ord, has also written a wonderful book. The precipice and, as you know, many many blogs as well cold takes is a great blog by another fan colleagues home can ascii, so one thing can do is start making the arguments for why we should care about future generations and also just the things that will really matter in our lifetime for future generations that have also just enormously important for the present generation is well risks from pandemics natural and engine, yet that's just a really serious risk and taking action on that has benefits in both the present and for the long term. Similar risks from developing artificial intelligence, very serious risks in the short term, as well as So that's one thing you can do and then beyond that beyond, just making the arguments is just then getting them out there. So forecasts of a big deal, so is you two movies potentially so is education, and these are all things that are working on

on the site, in addition to just trying to get the arguments down and flames as well as possible, in terms of you keeping your head up while embarking on these massively ambitious projects trying to get rich. Deep cultural change, around generosity and long term ism. It always listen to talk In the course of this interview about it. The dalai lama came to mind because he's some I was asked he report to boost on a species wide level. The kindness quotient, not a small. task and he will often say yeah. It doesn't need to happen in my lifetime and he's helped by being a devout believer in rebirth. By I don't know that you have to believe in reinforced in order to think about. engaging in a meaningful community oriented mass

Lee ambitious projects and not being attached to her specific results within your lifetime did any of that then it will you that's those makes very strongly so in the course of writing a book. I had it deep investigation and learned a lot about the history of the abolition of slavery in particular, and some of the most pivotal early abolitionists in the abolitionist movement there quakers we're talking about like early eighteenth century here and a particular protagonist. I focused on Ben and lay his. This amazing character engages in also took a kind of theatre like stunts demonstrations to convince the quakers he in his lifetime, you know gauges an entire lifetime of activism one year before he died,

is he gets one win, which is that the quakers? So this is just one small community and slave trading within the quaker community, still at the opening of slaves, just slave trading, and so that's like the only real success he gets in his lifetime from an entire history of activism. However, he was one component of our visa much it's a movement, but one important component of one of the most important model changes in all of human history. It's just that those changes happened. I mean I guess they began happening about sixty years after his death were fully implemented more than like two hundred years after his death, but still, I think if we could have Benjamin lay here and to ask him he would set. Think yes, like the thing I care about, is that these changes really happened. But they happen in my lifetime, and you know I feel simile if all goes well by five gonna successful my aims

then almost certainly most of the impact that I would have would not be a curling during my lifetime, but would occur afterwards and that's it I'm in this, because I want to make the world that are going to see the benefits of it is a happy bonus but is not keeping but out, would imagine, there's a kind of reinforcing double helix here, where, yes, you, ok, there's some self sacrifice or something in that zone around working on big projects that you may not live to see the results of, but while you're alive engaging in this meaningful work, probably makes the quality of your life on a moment to moment basis pretty high, absolutely yeah. Something I say is that compared to my well being before I started in all of this, I think I'm five to ten times happier now than I was back, then I prefer just ten percent on the show, so ten percent so yeah, so I've done kind of five hundred times that I am not at all going to claim that, like entirely because of effective, altruism

many factors meditation his one and incorporating not just meditation, but general kind of mindfulness practice into my life. Having a better can in between my mind and my body, I miss hugely important, and then you know other things like therapy and medication, and so on is also helpful, but part of it certainly is being part of this community that is really taking seriously just the reality of the world, all the good of the bad and trying to really think about what the best things we can do to make this well better and then taking action to do so. That's like an inspiring thing to be part of minutes exciting, and if I reflect on ways that my life could have gone, I could have in a dusty philosophy, professor in some ivory tower working on incredibly esoteric is, and logic

I'm just so happy with the life I've led, and so this comes back to what we are saying to begin with. I think people set up the distinction between acting for the good of others and acting to benefit yourself is like much darker than it really is. I think this enormous ways, which can enormous extent you can do both coming up. Will macaskill on practical tips for getting better at thinking and act on long termism, his argument in favour of having children and somewhat surprising, take on how good our future could be if we play our cards right after this would if he were trafficked into a cult or you were shot nine times where you were. Only survivor of a car crash or what, if you went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed? What would you do

I'm with missile dine. The creator of this is actually happening. A pug hast from wandering that brings you extraordinary, true stories of life. Changing events told by the people who lived them from a young man dooms his entire future family, with one choice to a woman that barely survive to remain. We dive into what happened and hear their intimate first person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances, pursued, is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting account sound like hollywood movies, but I assure you this is actually happening, followed This is actually happening on amazon, music or ever you get your pockets or listen ad free by joining wondering plus in the wondering app. I am really interested in that overlap between self interest and other interest him. I think it's a very often put out

into the world, and very often in my own mind, set up as a false binary, but didn't you you reference year, community, again and and in terms of promoting law long term ism in our thinking about the welfare of future generations beyond europe, energy, in other words, growing this community of long term thinkers again, I think there some headwinds here we're living at a moment, at least in my fifty one years of age? ever seen, levels of kind of fear and pessimism around some massive and pernicious global trends. Do liberalization depopulation, climate change, part of it intelligence, bigotry, income inequality, really big, difficult mega trends. There's a think a temptation among many to look at the potentially grim future

and go right into a mode of resignation, passivity apathy? So what do you say to folks who, who might be resonating with what I am just finished? Describing yeah so the way I differ from other people, and this is not so to my appraisal of the world. That is just an enormous and the suffering in the world. There are lots of trends that are very scary. I think I would not be supplies at all. If I saw world war in my lifetime have not be supplies, for if I live to see thousands of nuclear war, has launched these a terrifying things, and I think the two things that give me this kind of at least vibe of optimism, I think, are one- is action organ. Patient and the second is low standards, so act An orientation is just is kind of like think about stoicism and in your own life no matter how bad things are you dwell, unlike how bad the situation is. Instead, what you should do is just think. What can I do to make it better, and that

the same question you ask whether your life is amazing over its terrible. At the same time, and similarly in the world as it is today in the action relevant question is not how bad things, how bad should we feel instead it? What can we do to make it better? And that means focusing a lot on solutions. Thinking about ways that we can prevent the next pandemic, the ways that we are and can take action to systematically mitigate climate change, rather than just really focusing on the problem and beating a cell and then the second thing is yellow standard square. I'm really just like. I don't know when a bunch of monkeys we ve like manage to build it? society. That's already kind of amazing for almost. Of human history, we were living in extreme poverty where there was no anesthetic against two sake or any sort of pain. Life expectancy was less than thirty. Societies were incredibly.

it's the article almost always slave owning was almost universal until eighteenth century europe, seventeen hundred three quarters of the world when some form of a forced labor relative to that- and I bet it's a low standard. Ok. Well, I said you were doing ok. You know people are mentioned they ever have been throughout history. There was not a third world war that is like a very lucky fact, probably the listeners of this country, a lift living in life, three about alien, liberal democratic countries. There are kind of many good things about the well too What we want to do is encourage those positive trends and act against the current negative ones, and I don't think it's accurate or helpful to only ever be think, about the negative, and I think it's a shame that a lot of kind of social activism tends to do that. you know, as you sell and I'm Is that term, not in the pejorative, but as you sell this idea of long termism, I get it

in some people thinking well I why do I want to think about all the threats facing the planet? That's just not a fun had space and I have immediate problems, I'm listening to this podcast harris, because I want you to help me mitigate. My stress now not like me, dwelling on you know future generations, whatever stress they might theoretically have just. How do you push back against that kind of conscious or subconscious objection? So I think those two things so here's a way in which long term perspective can actually make your life better, and these are kind of thinking tools that I have adopted. One is just comparison with people in the past, so you having a bad day, then some, times. I really reflect that. Well, some born today, intervention country have not born into seventeen hundred like I have painkillers if I haven't dick who I have anesthetic. If I'm undergoing surgery, I am able to travel

all around the world that was not accessible to people until the twentieth century. I dont have to spend my entire life engaging in turn it back breaking farming, which again was most of human history. Even on how bad days, I'm having like a very good day compared title, most people in human history, so it can a long term perspective I think, can be reassuring and then a second thought. What motivates me I mean, things that kind of motivate me most were from a long term perspective. I mean one: is this thought of just model things that happened in the past and seeing concern for future generations as continuous with model changes, other activists to fort form in the past? But then the second is this a thought of just how good the future could be if we play our cards by eta? about this and tat to one of the book? But when I look to the bucks a whole axe, if it's funny you talk about me as an optimist, because I see the book the ilo as have unduly. focused on the negatives because its talking all about risks and the threats, And so I can have put myself that there has been no.

but it, but about this little short story. It's kind of the last page of the book in the plant is copy, is just a cure code and you can scan that and you can access it and it gives a depiction of just how good the future could be, Where, if you look back again to seventy hundreds, the sort of lives that we have now we can travel anywhere in the world, you can connect anyone in the world a moment's notice, you can make fire flick of a switch. We work half as much as we used to just two hundred years ago. All of these things would have been unimaginable, cannot do the two years ago, so we can think like well how good things be in the future. If we play our cards think they could just be really wonderful. A life consisting of your best days for all of those days or maybe even better, maybe far back again, hundreds of times better and so I often kind of just reflect and kind of my very best experiences the feelings of like

spending time my partner falling in love for being a beautiful nature. I just think where we can create a world were just how grandkids grandkids disease good life is for them all the time, and I personally find that motivating kind of something to build towards, and I guess yeah honestly. I find that more motivating day today than worrying about nuclear war. May you be right about that I want to get better at long termism, which I think for many of us. If not all of it. It may not come naturally. What can I do? The first thing to do is just to learn a lot more, where you in some sense long termism, is common sense. The idea that future generations matter- and we should care about that just you know I think she come naturally to very many people. But what follows not what the implications, in particular, what the implications when we're trying to look for what sort of challenges and neglected or overlooked. So you know we're all very familiar with the challenge posed by climate change and the work being done on that I mean

people are more familiar now with pandemics. They went as familiar when we were a kind of raising the alarm bell about this, in the can admit, twenty tens and- not familiar with how the risks can be much greater than the future again, in particular of answers and biotechnology enabling the possibility of engineer pandemics or you can have engineer it by weapons, people also just don't know just how fast and how a rapid development if artificial intelligence is at the moment two. Nor are people aware of the risks involved just how greatly the development of human level, artificial intelligence can kind of upend. The global distribution of power could make for some very scary future in areas, and so one thing is just learning a lot more, so I've really try to leave us alone in what we are. The future I mentioned like it was over the decades worth of work, because it's not just me this entire team of people working on it every The very fact tat over two years spent on that, I just I just really want people to have a good understanding of the whole world.

Few you then there are other great resources. I mentioned the precipice by toby ord, kava sister companion book again, just so filled with kind of information. and then again for another kind of separating the is giving the big picture is this blog colds takes by holding kind of So all these are kind of different angles into the same set of issues. Since the first thing is it's like learning a bunch more, but let's say you've done that, and you want to take action. I think for free. Most natural things are, firstly using your money, so we discuss donations at length, taking the good from what we can pledge. You can choose to focus your donations on to the things that most effectively impact the long term future, and there is a long term future funds that you can find a gift

we can simply with your career. So in this area I think time is even more valuable than money and we will need people who are willing to kind of make big career changes potentially to work on these most pressing issues. You can find out loads more about that eighty thousand hours and then finally, you can get involved with the affected. Who's in community. If you really want to be doing good for the long term by unsure well the effect throughout the community's glowing than a very many conferences called effect of altruism global, who effect what was in global, If it's independently organised- and that means you can like get love contact, scalped speed very quickly, figured out kind of what's the best fit for me. How can I constitute the best in europe You list a few others action items. One is spreading good ideas in the other, and I was a little surprised to see this at first was having children absolutely so spitting good ideas. I think the path to impact there is kind of obvious just as with kind of

the changes that we ve seen in the past, like abolition, the woman suffrage, you just need buy it from a lot of people and good arguments can went out, and so people can participating in that programme like making good model arguments and then yeah having kids, so here. I just really want to push against this idea that commonly raised, which is that it's a model to have children and argument is normally that the negative impact on climate change from having a child- I just so bad that you should not have the child, because children in it, you see or two in the course of their life, especially when they become adults If they have kids too, I can tell you in their babies and middle of methane. You have referred. absolutely I mean that doesn't change, yazzi headache. I think you are doing enough progress. However, This means that now people have fewer kids and they would like to have. I mean that's not entirely due to climate change, as other factors are larger, but the average person in the usa uk has fewer children they would like to have.

but I think this is really the long way of looking at things, and it relates to the question of like only looking at the negative side from the positives, because, yes, it's absolutely true that as a result of having a child, you will cause more c o two to be emitted into the atmosphere. Better are two things to say in response. The first is that you can offset that and in fact you can offset that for a fraction of the cost of having the child, so the other child costs about ten thousand pounds per year. If you increase that by ten percent, so you can pay the cost of the tenth parents having a child that eleven thousand pounds. But a thousand pounds of that goes to highly effective organizations to fight against climate change that clean take innovation. Then you will have all set that carbon impact on my best guess a thousand times over. So this is again just testament to the power of one's donations. You can folks and the very most effective things to mitigate climate change, so it's going to cost.

Desperate, but then the second is that if you can you assess what's the overall impact of having a child, you need to look at both sides of the ledger. So yes for the negative effects of having a child, such as impact on climate change, but there are many positive effects to so chosen contribute when the grow up they contribute to that have led to society. They innovate helping move forwards like technological pro ass kind of as a whole. If you bring them up well, then they can be the kind of model change makers that the world needs to. I don't think it's a great friend of environmentalists, a systematic. Having fewer children and the selfish people have systematically having more. and then finally, which I argue in the book as well, if you bring up the child well and that child has like a flourishing life, then that's good from the child's perspective too. That's a sort of benefit the eu conveying and they actually makes the world better

and so you are undoubtedly not saying like we should all have as many kids as possible. We should become these kind of baby producing factories, but certainly people should remove the kind of axed. I think that they have about having children on climate change clowns. I think that's really not wanted, and I think overall, it's actually a good thing. have kids and bringing them up. Well, my eggs around having brought a child into the world. Well, my wasted the work but having been involved in bringing a child into the world by pretty bullish that this kid, given the life giving him can have a positive impact on bearish, though, on though quality, potentially his life as he gets older, given the aforementioned pernicious mega trends in the world, yeah

I think I would just disagree there. Where look. There are some ways in which the future could be a lot worse than today. That's just undoubtedly true that could be like a third world war. They could be civilization, collapse, you know that could be just some new pandemic every year because of developments and biotech. That's just totally on the table for me- and maybe I think, that's ten percent twenty percent likely or something I don't think it's the most likely outcome, though, where, if you look at the last hundred years even last few hundred years, I think for human beings at least just average quality of life has gotten significantly better. So in eighteen hundred something like eighty percent of the world lived in extreme poverty now less than ten percent do. If you look back kind of one hundred years, I mean we didn't have evidence based medicine one hundred years ago, but that's going to continue going into the future. I think people are going to keep getting richer, we're going to keep having better technology. That makes

he's better when all just gonna have better model progress as well. I mean like watching. companies shovels and, like you'll, see how much model clovis we ve had. Yet it was forget the vienna, I think, only twenty eleven, the game average was legalised in the united states. So I expect those trends to continue overall and sure, there's going to be ups and downs and absolutely there is a very significant risk that things get worse and we should try and mitigate that as much as possible. But at least my best guess is that things can be very good in the future. Indeed, last question for me: in looking through the notes that were provided to me for this interview I see that you make an Arguments about the world were living in now. You say, and this is a quote were now living through the global equivalent of hundred schools of thought. You didn't go, and say different moral world views are competing and no single worldview has yet one out. Are you arguing that we should

have a unified global moral outlook I might see in Hence I am arguing the opposite, so the risk of an employee, in two years. Why call value locking so I met four hundred schools of thought- that's a period in ancient china when they would ease putting my wealth you so confucianism is what is most familiar to us now in places family order. stability is also legalism which are sort of a bit kind of a model taoism which valued like spontaneity then a kind of the mystical and invite him which is in some, similar to affect votes which, naturally, that better concerned with promoting the impartial goods living on less and that point in time philosophers would wander from state to state, make their arguments about how best to live, but in over the following few hundred years This competition can have died away and confucianism became the kind of kind of like the state aid, the ology, the official ideology, and it was just talk on mass to people to kind of everyone in china

and we see much more generally like ideology trying to take over and influential itself so that sees, thankfully, did not win world war two. If we go to a kind of counterfactual possible world where they did and then perhaps not even more powerful were able to take the world as they wanted to do. They would have in french that fascist ideology for they settled. And years in a thousand years empire, but perhaps even longer, and that would be very bad because I think we're so far away. in the end, if model progress and one of the things it's crucial to do, if we care about the very long term is ensure that we keep going with model progress, and I think we can only have that if we still maintain an openness to different kind of model perspectives and a large diversity of worldviews. So what I actually am emphasizing most is like certain things that could lock in bad values.

Where I think a eyes one of them, the world government to be another. The first space settlement could be another we actually want to hold off and some of those things until we, I've had enough time to really think about what the good life consists in and we when we're like ok, yeah, we're really sure I'm kind of what the light distribution or what moral values are to be then start kind of spending that more widely this fascinating and, as I said earlier, electrifying ideas that you're putting out into the world before I let you go. You ve reference to a bunch of websites that you ve been a part of

creating or promoting, and you also referenced your books. Can you re reference them all in one place here, so that anybody who wants to go deeper? Has this as a resource more than happy to so the book that is just out is what we owe the future, which makes the case for long term some and what follows from my previous, but before that was doing good better, which lays out some of the principles of effective altruism. I also mentioned a book called the precipice by toby order, which is discussion of extension or risk, in particular risks of these really big scale ass the fees and the blog colt takes by holding cannot ski, which focuses on a high in particular. There are also websites I mentioned so given what we can to work. If you want to do it at least ten percent of even come to the most effective nonprofits and it has now as the work if you want career device. So how can you use your time on this planet to do as much as you can Thank you for coming on and thanks for the work you are doing on planet earth really appreciate. Both

thanks. So much for having me on, it's been a wonderful conversation again to william mechanical, a quick note and a very excited to deliver this little message quickly before I let you go one of the amazing producers on the show. You probably heard me invoke his name. Dj cashmere has been hard at work on a side project, and I want to tell you about First is a little bit about dj. You ve hurt me reference him before he finds and vets, many of our guests and then perhaps me for these interviews. And they will be hard to imagine doing the show. Frankly without him he's a dedicated meditation practitioner, a dedicated husband and father the dedicated producer on the show and He somehow found the time to produce an hour, long episode of a pie, gas that is truly truly excellent. it's a wrenching and revealing look back at his days as an inner city, education, reformer and it's just been released out into the world. It's called no excuses, and I can't

recommended strongly enough. You can find it over on the educate, podcast feed from a pm reports, or you can just click the link which we have completely put for you in the show notes of this episode go check it out. It's really quite a brave. He's of audio ended its a great story. You'll enjoy it worth an hour of your time. Congratulations. Two dj on an amazing piece of work, of course, teaches just one of many. outstanding human beings who work on the show, and I want to thank them before we? Let you go. Ten percent happier is produced Gabriel, sacrament, dj, of course, justine gavi and lawrence Smith or senior pretty there is more research, schneider men, Timmy regular is our managing producer, and our executive producer is gent point scoring and mixing by Peter bonaventure of ultraviolet audio with you all on wednesday, four, a brand new up hammond,

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