This is the ten percent happier podcast dan harris, hey everybody. Just in the last couple of years, I've been hearing so many people in my personal and professional lives, a document friends, colleagues, meditation teachers, I've been hearing, so many people extol the virtues of something called the any a gram. These are serious people why trust and respect- and they ve been telling me that the any a gram whatever that is genuinely changed their lives in these cars. patients. I would often nod along genuinely intrigued, but too embarrassed to admit that I actually had no idea what they were talking about now. I do, though, t p h fan favourite susan fiver, a long time. Dharma teacher has a new book about the overlap between buddhism and the enneagram and she's here too,

Explain so what the hell is, the any a gram you may be asking I'm gonna, let susan explain it in detail, but basically it's a tool with a mysterious and murky history that allows people to figure out their personality type. I'm definitely not doing adjust. This, but susan will, in fact she says the any. A gram has been one of if not the most important tools in her own personal development, and that is saying something Those of you who don't know Susan has been a student of buddhism since ninety ninety five, she graduated from a buddhist seminary in two thousand for and was authorized to teach meditation in two thousand five. So she's been at this for a while. She is written ten books. Latest is called the buddhist, any a gram, nine paths to warrior ship. In this conversation we talk about what the enneagram actually is and why Susan finds it so helpful what she means by warrior ship. We do a quick tour through the nine personality,

types in the any a gram and she views these nine types as a kind of map of our blind spots. We talk about why, unlike other personality systems, there is no test. You can take to figure out are you fall on the any a grandma least that Susan's view, and we talk. but why susan thinks the any a gram and buddhism mixed so well, even though one first blush, it would seem to contradict the damas emphasis on the self being an illusion, we'll get started with susan five or read after this. And now word from our sponsor better help. As we all know, life and be a roller coaster of ups and downs, and when there are more downs, then ups, it is very easy to get stuck focusing on our problems to the point where we get over well that we can't see any solution. This is one of the reasons why I personally love talking to my therapist pekin help me get on stock and

out of wallowing in two problem solving mode. It's like he's a huge source of perspective. You kind of just air raids, all of my obsession, some fixations bottom line here, and this is a little bit of a cliche. But it's really true. It's easier to face our cliches when we're not on our own. Better help offers convenient accessible online therapy and you can switch therapists at any time to find your best match when you want to be a better problem. Solver therapy can get you there visit better health dot com, slash happier today to get ten percent off your first month. That's better h, e l, p dot com, slash happier, I remember booking canoeing trip on bear lake via tour. I remember my I've, sweet smile. Taken me back. Was canoeing in summer camp, thinking mile. My this moment is nothing short of perfect. I remember turtles

We all remember things differently. What's important, is that they're worth remembering from canoeing to the coliseum? You can book it all use code via tor, ten in the app for ten percent off your first booking fight tour one site over three hundred thousand experiences. You'll remember this episode is brought to you by progressive are you thinking more about how to tighten up your budget these days, drivers who save by switching to progressive sables seven hundred dollars on average and customers can qualify. For an average of six discounts when they sign up a little off your radio, it goes a long way get a quote today: a progressive dot, progressive casualty, insurance company, fully its national annual average insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive between June twenty twenty and may twenty twenty one potential savings will very discounts very and are not available in all states and situations doesn't fibre welcome back to the shop. I am so happy to be here and it's great to see again likewise. Likewise, so we we talked about the anagram on the show before a lot of people in my world. Talk to me about it

be honest. I don't actually know what it is. So, let's start there, what is the any aground? Yes I'd be happy to tell you and there People hear the word and they just light up and there like. Let's never talk about anything else, but the anagram grounds and the other half of people are like. Let's never talk about the any so somewhere between will meet and yeah e n, n e, a is the greek prefix for nine, and it posits that there are nine ways of being in the world, sometimes called nine personalities, but I think it's much bigger than personalities so described nine ways of being nine kinds of humans? Nine different things get people's attention, nine different values matter and that kind of thing is it greekan innovation? In other words, did the greeks invent the any anagram? I was self hoping. You had asked that because the answer Where does the any aground come from? Is unbelievably crazy? Nobody knows, nobody knows. That's the real answer,

and tat trust me. When I tell you, I have gone to the mat to find the answer to this question. The purse person in recorded history known to have taught the any aground george george, if the greek, armenian, mystic, crazy wisdom master from the forties, thirty's, fortys and fifty's, I think first person ever mention it, but he did not discuss it as a system of personality in time. about it as nine cycles of nature, since we will I know, but it really is in and then fast forward, like twenty five years, a bolivian dude named ask reach also started teaching. any agreement that people who are lighting up in your world when they light up it's from his teachings. He had a student named claudio neuron hope who died a couple years ago and turns out that he was a buddhist in tibetan tradition and a vastly important contributor to the system

and I made up a story that I was gonna be in his neighborhood in berkeley, california, and I was wondering if we could have a chat about the any aground and buddhism, because we share those things, and he said yes and I went to his house and if anyone can answer this question, where does it come from? That would be him and I he did not have a clear answer now, can just leave it at that. So many went long story by unknown, which I find very heartening. We co authored the any aground in the sense anybody who participates in the area. am, is co authoring it like the buddha dharma. You could say some one wrote it sure someone came up with it, but you have your view of loving kindness, for example, and I have my view of the three jewels and things that buddhist the people might be interested in

but we're not making them up. But there's a lot of space to have your own point of view. In both systems, I would say if the earliest record ed, pedagogical embrace of any ground was in the nineteen forties with the aforementioned gorgeous. Does that seem to argue that this is not an ancient development, the any a gram that somebody in the modern world came up with. It may be that when he's factor when you start to examine the system- and you see how state is and how nuanced and how modern, certainly but timeless it seems you now stop me. If I get to buddhist iii on you is, but in the tibetan tradition anyway, there's something called terra tee, I am a which means treasure, mine, treasure, earth treasure and their teaching set are discovered rather than authored.

and they come into the world, fully formed. So complete that you think, maybe you said at first, but this can't be attributed actual and in my discussion with claudia on around her the tibetan Buddhism practitioner scholar, Who knew very well what terrible was we discuss? The system as a term a fully formed teaching that just seems to him in there now I know that sounds we will and wizardry, but somehow it seems to be the closest to the truth. Well, let's pick up on that, the wizardry that huge has reference there, because I, I suspect there are some listeners, we're going to be feeling skeptical, no known author. I can't pin this on some scientific tradition or spiritual tradition or a philosophical tradition. It just shows up and some guy in the forties. teaching it and now all these modern people are really

excited about it was a called what's goin on here yeah, it's not a cult. If only there was something that's civic to point to a rail against or embrace, but no is definitely not. A call there's no leader. My perspective on this is it's a mystical tradition. It's a mystical view. It's a mystical system and every great wisdom, tradition a mystical branch, Karbala judaism supervision and islam, button buddhism in the buddhist tradition. These are the esoteric schools, the exoteric schools, great, they obviously exists to, but each one has a an offshoot that is a mystical branch and the most rife for confusion and collect behaviors and silliness

This is a mystical tradition. That's why I wanted to write about it as a buddhist teacher as opposed to a psychological tool as that relevant in any yes, Much, but I'll get a million more questions that I would put you on the no bullshit end of the spectrum of teachers who come on this. Oh you're she's boeing at me in appreciation, so why? Why, are you so ended this that you ve written a whole book about the enable a minute intersection with buddhism a whole darned book. Well, I ve been studying both for the same amount of time that thirty years and as I do not have to explain to you and I'm sure too many of your listeners in our meditation traditions, there is tremendous emphasis placed on compassion, J. Creating compassion, expressing compassion, developing more compassion and all these various ways, and there is also an emphasis on fierce, presents being awake, and so we practice they things

various teachings and study and retreats, and what have you ok, cool? Those are great for me. Personally, nothing has been more helpful in embodying those teachings. Then. Any brown, and I just use them together in my own mind, for twenty five years. I didn't really think dimension it, but I cab noticing, year after year, when I want to be compassionate and I dont know how, because pursued being a jerk or I'm grumpy or who knows, the any a gram swoops in with a light. This is what they're trying to say This is what is getting you upset. This is how you can include or bypass these things, to connect more directly. It's an occupier, a skilful me

it's as they say in buddhism, a skilful means or a pyre, anything that increases compassion, which sometimes is being nice, but not always sometimes it's yelling. Sometimes it's leaving and nothing has helped me be more compassionate towards myself and others than the ne. and because it helps me see my wiring, it helps me stay awake to my projections, which I would otherwise believe our real. So it's got extraordinary value. Does it make sense? It makes us a me member. I want to make sure it's making sense of listeners. Let me see if I can restate that in maybe embroider a little bit on top of it in and then let you reactor correct, The any gram since you know which of the nine you are helps you understand what you're triggers and blind spots are and then, if you can see somebody else who is being a jerk or you think there a jerk and you can maybe roughly place them with in,

one of the nine yourself and understand what their triggers and blind spots might be, what their motivations might be. It puts things in context and perspective for you. Yes, I stop seeing them through my own lens and see them for themselves. there is no such thing as compassion without that. So I can give you a little anecdote if that's useful place, so I used to work with someone a long time ago and creative projects. We were like partners on making creative things in the music business. It so happened. And I was in my office and think this could be cool. Let me go tell my friend about it. My colleagues and I would tell him idea which could do this could look like that and he would just look at me and then tell me ten reasons why a bad idea. Why would never work? What are the obstacles were, and I would slink out thinking loser or I don't like him or whenever it was. I was thinking

until I realized his point on the any a gram which, in this case happens to be six, the first a tune meant is always to danger not to possibility not to meaning not to emotion, points that others might attend to to danger. So I stopped telling him my ideas until I wanted to. Well, what could go wrong with them, which is a place? You always come too with the ideas. What are the obstacles and he would boom boom boom a genius and it cut out. This whole rigmarole he doesn't like me. I don't like him. Maybe we can ever worked together gone because I learned how we could play to each other's strengths. Sits very simple, knows very down to earth. Useful swore tat sounds like a tool for self knowledge, self, empathy, self, compassion, knowledge of others, compassion and empathy, cognitive and emotional for

There's exactly talk about marriage, for example, which are not talking, and we can sell it helpful to me in my own marriage. I don't know how I would I want to navigate the inevitable ups and downs of a long term relationship without these insights. What are the types? Can you give us a tour of the nine types first thing to note. The anagram diagram is a circle with nine numbers around it, and a good place to start is noticing that their grouped into threes, three groups of three and according to centre of it, elegance and we all have all three centres, but one predominates in this case, Eight, nine and one are the intuitive triad people that respond to the world based on some kind of got instinct. We all do that, of course, but this is predominant for these people Two three and four are the emotional triad people who respond to the world not based on feelings

but a needing to know how they feel about something before They know what it is like its doctrine. until I know what I feel about it? That's what makes things makes sense to me and then five, six and seven, the final three are the mental triad. The people who make their way through life with knowledge Statistics and history and you know rhythms and patterns, and they need to understand these things before the thing it. Self has any meaning. So that's a good way to start I'll. Just tell you actually what each type pays attention to cause us simple ones pay attention to right and wrong. The most important thing for them to know my mother's, a one she always said growing up the most important thing I can teach you is to know that

between right and wrong. Everyone wants the kids to know that, but that was number one for her number to the attention goes to need who needs what and how can I support that? Fulfil that to get my own needs met. Threes attention goes to status, who has it where's? My force? Attention goes to meaning what's under the surface, fives attention goes to what is knowable knowledge data points. Observations sixes, as mention goes to danger. Seven's attention goes to possibility what could happen here. Ates attention goes to control dominates. I need to control things, people whatever and nines. The attention goes to everyone else, but themselves they cannot find their own point of view, so the attack

and goes to you so very loosely speaking when you can see someone's arc of attention, whereas it can go like my husband's. Who is the one who's going to go to right a wrong when we get in a fight about something my attention, I'm the fourth type, goes to meaning. What does this mean? What is the say But if I can say to him, I see what went wrong. You know that doesn't really matter to me a calm, the situation for him, because that's what he is most concerned with and if you can say to me what does this mean to you? I relax cassettes important to me, so it's helpful in that way to meet each other at everyone's point of attention to meet them. There quite useful, like an operator's manual for herself and others. The exact it's an astonishingly accurate road map, as I heard you take through the nine- and I know that was just one level of each of the nine but as I heard you tick through that, I was thinking well ass. I could hear myself and a lot of those. So I mean

We all have aspects of all of these sure we do we all know how to pay attention to meaning and right and wrong in control and so forth, but one of them is first and there's further complications. As you say, it's the top level, so it needs more investigation to discover yourself and that's one the things that I find most interesting about, the any aground is there is no test. There is no test people say I took the test on the three, unlike probably not it's not like other personality systems like myers briggs or the coal bees or strength finders. They have tests and they seem to be pretty accurate. There is no test here, So it requires self reflection and investigation and more thought. Then someone telling you have to figure out yourself

How did you go about figuring out your type? I ask because I'm curious and also I have this suspicion- that if you describe your process, that could be a road map for others. I appreciate that it took me a while to find my own type and I'm gonna make it more. Located, and if people like complications complication, be really happy right if they dont, maybe not so much, but within each type, there are subdivisions according to The any aground calls instinct shore drives now we all have these drives their institutional and I'll. Tell you what they are in a second, but for each of us one of them predominates in that colors. The type these are called the sub types and their much easier to find. Then, whether your one or two or three years, first find this piece. The sub type don't be mad at me. Everyone it's really complicated, but the first since actual drive that we all have is for self preservation. And when I went to kill me self preservation. Person is whether there are two.

seven or whatever is going to say proof gathering gas bill thoughts will be what if it's too cold. What am I going to sleep on and will there be food? I like a better bring snacks. The second institutional drive that we all share is called the social drive to belong to something bigger than ourselves. whether it's a family or a political party or neighbourhood. So if the social dr predominates, going to the same meeting that and will think. How will the room be arranged and will people be able to see me and will people go out to eat and if so, will they invite me very different than where, if I'm too cold, I better bring layers and the third subtype is the sexual subtype or intimate subtype, which doesn't mean I want to have sex with people all the time it means my attention goes to one to one connections: that's the most thing to me whether it's a friend or a romantic relationship collegial so going to the same meeting. That person would think were there

Someone there that I can talk to about this, who I can share. This was who will get me inside each other and make jokes, and those are three really different. Sets of concerns. and if anyone wants to find there any aground type, I really suggest starting their, which one of those drives the strongest for you, because my type for I did not want to have anything to do with it. Nothing rang any bells for me with that type. Until I read about the self preservation for as opposed to the social for or the sexual, for that rang every bell so preservation for in the sis. Miss called reckless dauntless, it's an emotional type that thinks that emotional meaning will never become clear. So I'm going to kamikaze my way through my life take risks. Destroy my life build a new one. When I was young, that's what I did. I just took a lot of chances, slaughter risks from an emotional, alas, a sense of emotional lie.

Till I figured that out, I never what I found my type, so my suggestion is take all the tests, even though there is no good test. Take all the free tests start to see if some numbers come up, then put that aside think about your subtype. Your instincts will drive which one is strongest for. You then put those things together. These numbers that seem to come up and then the subtype within those numbers. So seven comes up a lot and you think you're social subtype just read about social seven and you can skip alot of craziness that coming up susan piper on why she thinks the any a gram has become so hot recently, whether you can change your any a gram type and what she means when she uses the big word liberation after this high I'm linsey grand the host of wondering

no american scandal. We bring to lie some of the biggest controversies in. U s. History, presidential lies environmental disasters, corporate fraud in our new a serious. We look at the story of edward said A whistle blower who changed the national conversation about privacy on the internet as a contractor for the inner snowden, had access to a range of top secret government, rams. But as he learned more about these clandestine operations, he came to understand a devastating secret. The government was conducting mass surveillance on its own citizens. Snowden would go on to leak more. Classified documents than any whistle blower in american history. He became the subject of an national, manhunt and ass? He fought to expose the truth. He would risk his own freedom and his family's wellbeing, follow american scandal on apple podcast, amazon, music, the wonder yap or what Your listening now. Listen what we eagerly and ad free by joining wondering plus hey. I might corey the host of wonder: is podcast against them

lies in our next season. Two cameramen fly over an active hawaiian volcano to capture footage for a new hollywood block lester. But when the wind shifts the helicopter is engulfed in toxic fumes and cry she is inside the volcano. The pilot and the camera men are trapped, praying for miraculous rescue or their consumed by smoke or lava follow against the odds on apple podcast, amazon, music or wherever you're listening right now. Why do you think this has gotten so popular It's a really good question. It had a spate of popularity in the nineties, the early mid nineties- probably I found it and then it receded and then somehow the christian world embraced it and the protestant

christian world because early on the catholic world embraced it way in the very beginning it spoke to the jesuits and franciscans in particular, and then the pope you a fatwa against against any agreement that ended, but somehow the protestant world embraced it, and that is part of what's made popular in some circles in its very very popular there and most of the best selling books of the last five years have been in light of christian values, and I think it started to spread from there and it has become like by, meditation become popular. You know, relatively speaking, some combination of news and science and your friends and social media, and then you try it and it works or doesn't any crime just came back into the gushed alt and it excuse

means things so well, and it gives you away to one what you may think is damaged about yourself as a gift of some kind. So who doesn't want that? I want to get back to some of the technical stuff about the types which you were talking about and a very interesting way, and I have more questions, but I do want to pick up on what you just said right there about our attitudes toward ourselves. You had a conversation with one of my colleagues before this interview and you said something, and I'm going to quote you back to you that really to me, dan practices. You said in a tear of otto world, which means that my teachers are old, school buddhists, susan practices in tibetan world, which is one of the later schools buddhism. These two schools have, in common, loving kindness, slash, compassion and fierce presence. Those are difficult things to accomplish. We think the ability to do so as a result of will of of thoughts of thinking, but it's not it's the result of relax.

fully and seeing these things are already there. What prevents us from relaxing this way is self hatred. Please say more, I'm so happy that matters picked up on and by we I meant we humans, not we tear of add ins. Are we tibetans yeah such a big topic, and it makes me sad compassion, as you know, must begin with yourself. You have find a way to feel compassion for yourself in the traditional. and kindness sequence. You start with yourself and you wish yourself well, then you go to a loved one better. Actor you're an enemy and saw it all beings. My guess is when the buddha taught this practice twenty six hundred years ago is like us to be hard for no, they don't like their enemies. They don't want to wish them. Well, let's start with easy what? Let's start with you, because who doesn't like themselves and now why six hundred years on, I think that's actually the hardest to field softness towards yourself from

ever reason we're raised in a culture that says you need to do better, you're, not good enough, so in so doing better we have what I call. I think I made this up image poisoning that want to appear to be more successful, more beautiful, more powerful, and whenever you get to that point, it's not enough- and this is constant driving forward and the ability of the invitation to soften towards yourself is frightening. But if we can't do that, we can't soften towards others. It's a mechanical gesture, otherwise cause you softened to yourselves something opens, and then you can extend that, but without this softening toward yourself first it is pure concept. Sea have to find it within you.

Directed toward you, and most of us have certainly put myself in the front of this list have been conditioned to really not like myself, not good enough. So how do I navigate that invitation from the practice of loving kindness, when I have this sense that if I like myself, I'm going to fall apart, the whole thing's going to fall apart? I just have to keep drive in the foreword. Do you really to that at all yeah, I mean, I think, the core thesis of this book that I've been working on myself for more than four years now and that doesn't appear to be close to done is- and I think about this alot Is it there's? This kind of counter intuitive and a little bit cheesy process where by learning to love yourself, actually turns down the volume on self centeredness and makes you more available and more effective for everything and everybody else full agreement, and I'm excited to read your book by the way whenever it arrives, which I'm sure it will. But I know how frustrating it is.

Yeah, it seems like we're, told either from our religious culture or culture culture you come last. You have to put others first and if you put yourself first bad things are going to happen. So often people get into this diametric opposition. It's either you or me, because it can't be both, and I dunno where that came from, but there's some sensitive, I like myself, I'm being stupid. So then, where do we go from there when it comes to compassion for others? It's very hard, as is sometimes said, it's hard to poor from an empty cup bring it back to the any agreement. I imagine what you're saying here is that understanding your type turned down the volume on self hatred. First of all the it's a very obvious, if you're part of a type that there are other people, You you're, not malfunctioning. This is just a way of being in the world and there's this phenomenon of there's a name for it where we we catch ourselves having sawder and urge impulse

maybe even all emotion- and we then tell ourselves a whole story about how were badly, and because we just had this, you know shudder inducing moment of big. Or were judging somebody or were planning homicide or whatever it is that happening in the mind uninvited of course, and then we tell ourselves all story. about how horrible we are, because of that. I would Imagine the any a gram were leaves a lot about pressure here. So right and I'll give you an example for me, my type for or on the emotional triad, but for two's all the emotional energy goes out always try to make contact with others this all connected moment for three there are none to their emotional energy. They can't find it so the very status oriented because

If you don't know how you feel you only have appearances to go on for my type. All the emotional energy is held in everything that happens out here is felt as something that happens in here, which is incorrect, of course. So if you hold two tuning forks in your hand- and you hit one against the Well, if people don't know what a tuning fork is Google it if you hold one, then the other one will start to vibrate and that's what it's like to go through life as a four. It can be extremely empathic because of that and extremely self absorbed because of that. So for many years I was very upset with myself for not being a good friend. I just lost friends because

at the kind of friend to hang out? I don't like to hang out. I don't like to have judge I don't. Let's go do something everything in because I don't want to do that and I dont and I made myself cause- I'm like this is how people demonstrate french they could do things together. They call and how are you doing? I never do things like that and very upset self. Then, when I realized I was four and I saw what my gift for friendship was, which is not that my gift is, if you're being born or dying, call me, I won't be. Their costs of forests are interested in emotional complexity and pain and complications are drawn to it. So I'm not drawn to it from a cavalier sense. But if you are being born or dying, my type can stand with you without blinking, that's a gift

so I'm like. Okay, that's how I am as a friend and from then on. I wouldn't tell people that if you're been airborne or dying, call me, but I would tell people who I love, I'm not so good at hanging out, but I'll be there for you I'll, be there for you. I promise you, and that is just one pretty small example of how I let myself off the hook for this thing that my world was telling me I should do, but I didn't want to do was go back to the types as I understand it. Each type has- and these are some terms of art here- an idealization and avoidance and a virtue. What does that mean of that terminology? Yeah the idealization, the best thing you can do and I'm happy to run them through the avoidance to what we don't want that the virtue? as a corollary, which is called in the underground system, the passion

passion here means not good passion, but it's the grasping it's where your grasping lips and the virtue is what it liberates into upon relaxation, not upon application of will. So, let's was, let's talk about type night. The idealisation is, I am comfortable everyone to to be comfortable, but the asian for four is, I am a special mention. Ways makes me laugh. My husband sees me all doubt and jump cigars put. You know, you're very special for every time for him I've, the idealisation is, I am right, so I am comfortable. I am right. I am special. Those are different. The avoidance for nine conflict. I don't want that and we all know People are perhaps we are the person that will go way out of our way to avoid conflict. For me, the avoidance for that lloyd and ordinary ass, many people an ordinary life and family one what I dunno job now not force. That would be horrible

and for type one. The avoidance is being incorrect, so most of us are like our always incorrect, but one night the earth- it's like death now, so each type has. A passion and virtue for nine. Their passion is sloth. Laziness. The virtue is right action. How do you move from one to the others? That's what the anagrams system is quite brilliant at each type has a talking style. Each type has a fixation. It's like a catalogue of terms and concepts that help you see yourself, not as good or bad, but as you through the helpful in this system, are you supposed to change? No you aren't supposed to, and in this system you can't you are this type. But if you ever look at the diagram, you see their arrows, pointing back and forth to different numbers and those are called arrows of integration and disintegration.

Although other more modern enneagram teachers wanted to do away with those words, because they think they are too jaggi or something, but I like them, so one there's an arrow pointing to seven. That's the integration point. So when it's become super one great they're, all comfortable being once they move through the ceiling of their greatness and take on the high qualities in this case of the seventh. And there's a second arrow, pointing at four when things go their way and they go to their defences and they don't work they disintegrate through the floor and take on the low qualities of four. In this case. So there's a lot of movement around the circle, but you are one type. I just very upsetting for certain people to hear, like don't put me box, but ten. I don't know about you, I'm in a box I am in a box, and I would rather see it don't give me a box when we see the box. I already put myself in so the answer to whether you can change his

so you know one a yes, no, you can't change you another type, but yes, you can improve within your type absolute. And you can improve even within another type. It's like if you're born. in newton massachusetts, let's say poland, a town out of my hat you never kennedy from newton massachusetts for better were, but you can move to china. You can move to new york city. Are you ever be not from newton. No, but you're gonna have all these other influences too is kind of like that. So I can rise to the highest qualities. I type and I can even take on the virtues of other people's types, their self development there's cultivation that can happen within your type but you're not going to you know all of a sudden jump from a nine to a three hole. Hawg. No, and the journey- and this is another corollary with put his thought. You know some people like the journey is too self improvement, and god knows, let's have some self improvement of that. But the journey really is deliberation liberation from personality liberation from type

and unless you know where you start on that journey, it's very hard to take the first step. A lot of people come on oh and use that word liberation- and I always ask what do you mean by that yeah so glad you asked I'd love to hear everybody's answer I don't know as an unlimited person, I don't know, but I think what it means is free of the cycle of suffering free of if your buddhist, birth and death in all that whole cycle free from suffering free for suffering, not because you ve decided to be happy, but because you see things clearly as one interdependent, how it all, This is what I heard pressure it's true, but I have not accomplished it. What do you mean when you say liberation?

I dont use the were very much that's not because I've made some conscious choice is not because I know so much that I've decided. You know after a lot of deliberation, not to use the word. It's just that I usually avoid terms that can be misconstrued as grandiose and and also I don't know as much as you do so I dunno what the word actually means. No, I don't know about that. Last part. I dunno about that last part, but let's say liberated from small mind that- one works for me and liberated from my small mind view- I can see things in a bigger way coming up susan talks about why, despite what you may finding your any a grand type is totally in sync, with the buddhist concept of the self being an illusion. We also talk about how the any ground can be useful in finding your blind spots and whether it's possible to break the any ram after this he invalidism again reminder

listeners. Citizen a book is about the melting, the mixed ology between buddhism in any a gram in buddhism. There's a lot of talk about the self at some ultimate level is an illusion or the other term that to use a lot is not self. In other words, you can Look at anything is coming up in your mind and see if you can claim it as yours and you can't, which is a healthy investigation. So how does dumping yourself in a type jibe with the notion that there is no self is such a great question? Is your door that question that was french? Damn that's french for anybody who took spanish in high school. So, yes, there is the whole idea of no self and buddhism. So why would you just paraphrasing what you just said? Why would you spend any time an investigation of which self is you of the nine? If there is no self? However, I see you you're right there, you right there and I'm right here.

so my understanding of no self doesn't mean you're, not there and I'm not here. It means there's no independent self, no self independent of causes and conditions that arose before you because of your parents, their grandparents, their diet, karma whatever it might be there you're down here. I am susan, were right here, but we don't exist independently of those causes and conditions that gave rise to us, though we think we do. I think I do so. Ok, that's trusting- and there are countless schools of buddhism, unless you just alluded that say, look for that self! Is it your finger? Is it? Where are your thought come from where's ago very useful? But as beings who may want to understand the truth of no self, it does not help to go you're, not here or let me pretend there's no self, because I read it that will not serve, have to start

somewhere with the absolute concepts in the absolute around no self. In the absolute realm, only compassion the so it realm pure beings? We can't just jump on it train and go there or pretend to be there if it was here, this would be like, have to start on the relative plane because truth in the buddhist view and many reviews, I'm sure exist simultaneously in the relative and the absolute round very hard to start with the absolute you just have some dream or you get some insight, but we can start with the relative. Let me start with examining who am I let me start with understanding this person to some degree and trust that that self investigation will initiate a process that could lead to a more absolute for

I have knowing, which ps is impossible, because there's no knower, no knowing and nothing to be known, but we have to start with where we are- and I see this all the time in my buddhist world and in myself and in students and so on. If we start by saying I don't want any of that, I'm just going to bypass that being human, getting angry falling in love having attachments because the buddha said: don't do that which he didn't. That leaves you in a very un giving place. So I hope that made sense. We have to start with relative truth and then navigate toward higher understandings. I would say some of this terminology run relative in absolute, maybe new, to some people, but in buddhist, We talk a lot about the relative truth, which is that the day to day consensual reality in which we all operate. I me Susan Susan, you listen or are you you have a body look and marry you see your face, you have to make dances deployments, but your pants on whatever.

So you are you some very tough ordinary data day relative truth, Ultimately, though, or in an absolute way, you can think about it. Like quantum physics, you know that harrier sitting in right now or the sneakers? on your feet or whatever may look like a chair or may look like sneakers, but I've put it under high high high powered microscope, you're spinning subatomic particles, which are mostly space, and so is it ultimately chair or sneaker, or is it ultimately these spinning subatomic particles same with your self, if you look in your mind under the microscope of my fulness, you will see a bunch of spending. and urges and emotions and sensory inputs, and you can't claim any of it as yours, but given these two descriptions of the world of reality. What I hear you saying is yes, so that any a gram really,

is on a relative level. We need to start with the fact that we do exist. We do have these patterns and it's great to under and them, and then we can use this tool to get us to the absolute or ultimate truth. Is there some anagram teacher, mostly from the advice, tar, the non dual tradition that say the any good who you are not, and that's a very helpful way to look at it was I mean you're blind spots. It points cheer blind spots. What you can't see about your If you want to know what those are, the any ground will tell you what you can't see about yourself. If you don't wanna, know, don't look so We're saying it a better way of saying it is it uncovers your patterns as, as you said already, and covers your patterns that you think are real, and you know this may be off topic, but in your examination of loving kindness, I won't call it a book because no pressure, you know, there's relative, loving, kindness and absolute, loving, kindness and relative, as you know, be kind. Think of others

try to do helpful things and much more than that, of course, by absolute, loving kindness is the recognition of emptiness of what we were just talking about the non separate existence of all phenomena. Now how do those things relate? How does this being a good person? I too, I dwell with an emptiness. I don't know, but without this relative one, it's very hard to approach the absolute view and get into wordy may be, but you know what I mean Well, I think I might be able to answer it. I I'll give you an answer, may reflect my lack of understanding, but I actually find that emptiness, which is another way to talk about no self or not self. For The fact that the self is an illusion in that there is no independent per month gillis of you in your mind, behind your eyes, you can't find some core nugget of susan or Dan there that at all All we are right now is dependent upon it. Like a vast said of contingent

seize and causes and effects stretching back to the big bang and beyond, but that actually does lead to compassion? I think, because I can look at somebody who, I think, has being a jerk and realise what there is this whole flexing oh of causes in conditions that led up to this very moment where they're doing this thing, of which I disapprove and by the way, if I was in their mind right now. I might be doing the exact same thing, so that to me is how the relative and the absolute intersect when it comes to compassion. If I'm thinking about this correctly interesting, my sense is everything you described is relative, loving kindness, extended expanded, evolved, but the recognition of emptiness, which no one can explain, because nobody,

the stands. It is some sense of self liberating into nine separate self. All one whatever people call it with the great buddhism bodhisattvas have recognized is there is no path, no wisdom, no attainment, no nonattainment, to quote the heart, sutra there's just this, and that is, as far as I have been taught some way of defining absolute loving kindness is just this. I dunno I dunno, but interested, I don't understand it either. Get I've probably demonstrated that folsom way just now, so, let's, let's just go back to the any a grand for second, can you do it wrong? Can you do it wrong? That's a great question. You can certainly get your type wrong. You can certainly misuse it absolutely and the misuse is you use it to get a wise other people and put a label on them and stick them in a box and guy

who you are and what you gonna do. Therefore I am triumphant and poor. You that's horrible use, it cannot be used for your own self aggrandizement. or to manipulate others, and it can be quite a tool for manipulation so yeah. That is wrong, One of the rules I was taught in the any grammars you shouldn't type other people, and I agree with that. because nobody really knows only that person, but I can't help it. I hear things I that's that so I say to myself: instead, I feel the energy of three. I feel the energy of six whatever it is: not euro six and the hand. I think I was getting so popular den, and this is hilarious. Sherwin Williams, the renowned paint company, has now a series of paints by enneagram color. If you're three, you should paint your house like this, pretty sure, that's

the best use of the system and there's all sorts of names, and we would have to orders at starbucks stuff like that. Ok, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not a way of cataloguing people so that you can write them off heavier. heard of anybody breaking the any ram and that that you just can't put them one of the nine buckets. Yes, I have people in my life, most particularly my own meditation teacher in the last twenty five years Thirty, I couldn't figured out. I did, but it took me like ten years twelve years, my own father, I found very hard. So sometimes I think the closer you are to someone the harder it is to see the talking style is almost always the giveaway. By the way, my talking style is called lamentation. One talking styles called preaching, so you can hear it.

Often, but anyway, yet people have broken the diagram. The sense that you can't find them and the more processed a person is meaning the more practised and the more they ve worked with their projections, certainly the harder it is to type them. Your book is called the buddhist, any a gram, nine paths to warrior ship. What is warrior ship, well in the buddhist tradition, I was trained in there's a notion of warrior ship ass, not someone who goes to battle necessarily it's more like someone who's will tell the truth with compare can someone who will advocate for sanity and the prairies Was it for being a warrior, is to not be afraid of yourself a warrior

is one who is not afraid of themselves? So where do you start there? How do you not be afraid of yourself? I'm too there's some not enough that, while I found that the any a gram described nine ways, nine kinds of warriors nine ways to stop being afraid of yourselves nine ways to embrace yourself so that you can embrace others. I want to quote you back to you on same subject and see if you have more to say this is from your book with the any a gram we until our ourselves from the merciless treadmill of self improvement side. Note to say, like that verbiage went other cells from the merciless treadmill of cells. Prevent to see what is already perfect in ourselves and others, and in every moment this is a warriors journey. It takes courage to look at what we cannot see under normal circumstances, Thank you. I like her. Whoever wrote that, No, I I think it does take courage and, as we saw were talking about the very beginning

there are wisdom, traditions, spiritual and psychological and philosophical that point very clearly down the road to self improvement and the often exe trimly, wise and valuable. This is how I can stop being traumatized. This is how I can stop being impatient whatever it might be, but then there are other traditions? That say this is how you can go beyond conventional mind and see the wisdom of this world and yourself and the truth of being human, and those are not conventional points of view. We need something. So when I say what is perfect in every moment, I dont mean everything's awesome your great. Although everything is awesome- and you are great, it means everything's, real and grasped apple and itself, and that's the spiritual journey, in some way? Did you say more about being afraid of yourself yeah? I appreciate that my fear of mice,

health and everybody has their own version is all the things I'm afraid. I'm not good enough. I am afraid I will fail. I'm afraid that who I am is not lovable acceptable, knowable and so my inclinations, as they may be, I put first through machine of conventional acceptance. Does this look right to others? Is this? But I think I should be, as is what I was raised to be, but who am I I don't know? I don't know getting some ideas with age, but I dont know because I too afraid to look for some native reason that I don't think particular to me, but I think it's safer in some way to fear yourself than to embrace yourself doesn't make sense. What would you say? I mean it's interesting phraseology because self hatred I get but self fear. I get that

do, but it's less immediately. Graspable forbid! It's not what I would. It would not be my go to term, but I'm digging in on it because it is compelling it is compelling ors, one who's, not afraid of themself. I didn't say it, I'm quoting it myself, but that has always been extremely evocative to me and a way to answer it. I think that is useful. In addition to am, I afraid of myself, and if so, what am I afraid of is what might things look like if I was not afraid, of myself. How would I go to work? How would I greet my friends? How would I opened my computer and try to answer emails? How would I try to make world a better place. If I wasn't afraid of myself, what would it look like? I was fine something interesting in that kind of contemplation, I'm pretty sure, there's a way to do that wrong to say, fuck it I don't care. You know. I'm I am who I am, and I'm gonna be just ass all the time and pretend you're not afraid of yourself. Yet exactly pretend we ve all

I've been that person, and I know not that person yeah, that's a different kind of fear and weirdly any aground sort of paints, nine ways to be afraid of yourself and what you do out of that fear become dominating. become submissive or become self important or special in my case is interesting for me to hear You say that you have had this long running fear of yourself because for thirty years have been practicing meditation in the hole, the whole thing in meditation. As I understand it is to close your eyes and lead a ribbon seal, the horror, yes with wonderful, In my tradition, it's open your eyes and and her rash, yes, yes, I keep forgetting. Thus the indrawn gaze at somebody smarter than me has said: that's lovely yes, So when you draw your gaze and it doesnt liberate you from fear of yourself, you see it and over time it ebbs and flows.

and in my case anyway, I'm sure and many others too, but the practice has given me some capacity on good days to see to see my fear not to navigate around it so very useful. Is there something I should have asked but didn't I don't think so. You asked really great quest. Since, and I really appreciate that you taking on this whole notion of any ground buddhism and the question most people ask what you did not ask and good things. I know the answer is: what type am I am I damn, what type of my is. Will you told me that that it takes a long time to figure that out, so I assumed that it was. It would be, therefore, a stupid question to ask you to answer if you ever decide to check it out. Let me know what you decide. I will before I let you go. Can you please plug this book- remind us of the name, etc, etc, but also remind us of some of the books you ve already written, because you ve written a lot of really great book. So also why-

you're out at any other resources you're pretty around the world on the web or whatever just give us the full thing. This book is called the buddhist, any aground nine paths to warrior ship previous books. I've written include the wisdom of a broken heart. Start here now and open hearted guide to the path and practice of meditation and the four noble truths of love buddhist wisdom for modern relationships. And I have an online community called the open heart project. There's closed twenty thousand members, all over the world. People who practice together and try to figure out.

If they're afraid of themselves and so on, and I occasionally teach in person retreats in austin, texas, very small and at the next one is on the heart sutra in november. So that's what's going on in this part of the world awesome susan. Thank you very much for doing this. Thank you dan. Let's talk every day, yeah sure thanks aunt, susan fascinating, as always a quick note and a very excited to deliver this little message. A quick note before I let you go. One of the amazing producers on this show. You've probably heard me invoke his name. Dj cashmere has been hard at work on a side project.

and I want to tell you about first, just a little bit about dj. You've heard me reference him before he finds and vets many of our guests and then preps me for these interviews and they will be hard to imagine doing the show, frankly without him he's a dedicated meditation practitioner, a dedicated husband and father and a dedicated producer on the show, and he somehow found the time to produce an hour long episode of a podcast that is truly truly excellent,

it's a wrenching and revealing look back at his days as an inner city, education, reformer and it's just been released out into the world. It's called no excuses and I cannot recommended strongly enough. You can find it over on the educated, podcast feed from a pm reports or you can just click. The link which we have can be put for you in the show notes of this episode go check it out. It's really quite a brave piece of audio ended its a great story. You'll enjoy it worth an hour of your time. Congratulations to dj on an amazing piece of work. Of course, DJ is just one of many out standing human beings who work on the show, and I want to thank them before we. Let you go. Ten percent happier is produced by dj cashmere, Gabriel's, ackerman, justine, davy and Lauren smith. Our senior producer is marisa. Schneider men can be regulars, are managing prick

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