565: A Radical Alternative to Revenge | sujatha baliga | Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris Transcripts

The ten percent happier podcast dan harris the hey how we doing alright. Here we go I am not proud of what I'm about to admit, but very often when somebody pisses me off. My first instinct is the plans sort of revenge. I rarely if ever actually follow through on this, but still it is genuinely one of my least favoured parts of my own personality, obviously its super counterproductive and speaking from abundant personal experience, this state of revenge seeking also happens to feel like shit. All the great wisdom traditions tell us. We should be forgetting

instead- and this is just some sort of you know- finger wagging move from the morality police, it straight up, good advice. It is in your best interests not to be coiled up inside of endless revenge fantasies. Of course, this is all easier said than done. Today, though, you gonna meet somebody who both says it and does it. She has an extraordinary personal story. She was horribly abused as a child by a family member and then after a faithful encounter with his holiness the dalai lama. She learned how to forgive this seemingly unforgivable once more. She now helps other people do Perhaps now? Even you suggest, the volga is a long time buddhist practitioner and international

recognize leader in the field of restorative justice, I'll. Let her define restorative justice in detail, but it's basically a less punitive alternative to the traditional criminal justice system. So Jaffa was named eight two thousand nineteen macarthur fellow and is now working on her first book. In this conversation we talk about her personal story, putting her early experience with sexual assault within her family or life changing encounter with the dalai lama and her experience with learning how to forgive with the help of meditation. We also talk about her experience working in the criminal justice system, her definition of restorative justice, why she believes we need it and three key questions. It asks in each case whether there is evidence that restorative justice work. The limits of restorative justice. What happens if somebody who is the victim of a crime does want traditional punishment or even revenge? How you can apply, which

He has learned in her own life, including her time in the field of restorative justice and a specific meditation practice that can help you do that. Heads up this episode includes multiple references to violent and traumatic experiences, including homicide and incest. Before we get started with today's episode, I want to give you a heads up, one of the most helpful resources over on the ten percent happier app and why you might want to know more about it now here in the united states, daylight saving time starts on march twelve. The whole sprang forward thing, which means you get to sleep an extra hour. If that is you, don't have a young children or overly insistent pets? I say all this because things can go a little bit haywire when your sleep rhythms our message. if you would like a little help, falling asleep or staying asleep. Let me recommend these sleep meditations over on the ten percent happier up with their whole suite of different methods.

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sir joshua bali guy, welcome to the show pinkies what you're. Having me, damn am I neighbourhood of correct pronunciation there. You are incredibly close close as well. may be. Without being a native speaker, I m precautions. All right. Thank you. It's important have your name. Pronounce correctly is also important to tell your story, and I would love to start this if europe forward with your story, it's incredible yarn. It starts with some pre serious abuses, a child and runs all the way to a momentous meeting with the dalai lama and then to your incredible career? Are you comfortable, starting with that story, sure yeah? We could start there. That's fine! I mean, I guess that's how all of this work started. So it feels good to start and give credit where credit is due. So ya a little bit about my personal history. I grew up primarily in rural pennsylvania, with really formative chunks of my childhood also spent in rural south india, but the ears and

pennsylvania were really challenging. Charging is an understatement. I was using a lot of pain from on the daily in my home and out in the world in school living with a lot of what today we would understand as racist bullying and in my home, my father was sexually abusing me, and so he passed away when I was sixteen and while the abuse print they stopped a few years before he passed away. There were just a lot of lingering effects that went into my young adulthood and I didn't really have an avenue, an outlet or any treatment or care. So my approach to healing was to try to make it that this never happened to. Anybody also serve hurled myself headlong into a life of service, domestic violence, shelters, rape, crisis

anti trafficking work for a little bit. I really sir sublimated my own healing journey and wasn't really putting myself the centre so felt like he's gone it's over and while I was experiences are quoted in sexual harm, moon jail, harassment, things that people live with on the regular. That was really pushing some really deep, an old buttons. I wasn't giving myself any space, they really show my past so the time living in mumbai, with my then partner, who is doing this incredible project working with trafficking survivors, and I was supposed to be helping him and I had these grand his plans, while I was applying to law school, then can go back to the states and become a lawyer become a prosecutor who was dedicated in my mind this future prosecutor. I was going to be to locking up the bad guys to locking up folks who cause harm and in the process of all of this, I had a total breakdown. Just couldn't get out of bed a lot of days

I couldn't function. I had severe blinding migraines all day every day. Gastrointestinal problems are probably ib s. Some people thought I had crohn's disease like. I was a unmitigated disaster for many many months, and I could not imagine how do be starting law school and so on a vacation with my partner, and we ended up in kerala where, on the beach, we met this man, who was the slight spiritual seeker guy, who was wearing a phone and nothing else like the others, do yeah yeah, I wasn't hydrates only thongs, only exactly that's that's gonna, be my website. Forget only fans, it's only thugs only example years disguises, mercenary canadian, it's going on and on about what a spiritual person he was. He was coming off of this acid trip by the light of the full moon, and he was telling us about these possible courses that he kept sitting and all of his backpacking around dharamshala

as you know, having recently returned from there, the home for the tibetan government in exile in with his holiness the dalai lama lives, and so, while I was both completely repulsed everything the sky was saying like I go to a possible courses, so I can centre myself and I'm so I'm more effective at the jump smuggling. But I do that funds of my international travel. You know it was interesting. I stayed- and I listened he watched these two. Words in my mind, the passionate and dharamsala and those with the tunis things I happen to know, so I tried really hard to get into a passion. Of course, there was a centre right outside of mumbai, and every class was full every weightless twas for four months and months out and well into I was supposed to start law school, and so I moved on to plan be getting on. The next local train to delhi and finding my way onto a bus that was winding up those roads

rolling the terms of the next night, and I end up trying to find a place to stay. There was this one guy how's that was open and I knocked on or they let me into their basement, and I slept there and the next morning I woke up and there was full of monks from the dark we're so kind to me in some piece of me. Just every part of me knew I was exactly where I was supposed to be so the next I had dinner with a guest house owner in their family. There were quite curious about this american accented indian girl, who undergo india by themselves their own concern? I was ninety ninety six and during the course of getting to know them better I think I was a rare traveller who really wanted to know about them in their lives, and I had spent so many years at this point working with severe trauma and people who are traumatized- and I myself obviously was seriously traumatized and instead of asking them the questions that I can people usually awesome. I can the dollar lemon, levitate and papa. I asked them about their trauma. I asked

about what happened like. Why did you leave what were the conditions under which she laughed and how did you get here? How did you survive and how are you happy and not in a constant state of rage and through the course of that conversation they were sort of like the kind of everything like you are an american passport in person with the special interests like. Why are you unhappy it's the first time, I really started talking with people from sir, my own cultural universe about the abuse, and it was a really powerful conversation and they suggested that I asked the dalai lama about it. So it's like what do you? What do you mean at the bottom and they're like? yeah. Well, we practice forgiveness but its color, confusing what you're saying in the context of inter familial- actual violence alike. What the dilemmas say about bad and, unlike well, Isn't he like busy- or you asked about my question, and so they told me in a random a letter. He just drop. It often

second door than green building behind the monastery is actually has compound and so I wrote him a note. I said anger is killing me, but it motivates my work. How do you work on behalf of abused and oppressed people without anger? Is evading force. They told me to come back in a week and I came back a week later and they granted me a private audience with this bonus, which you know. That was a pretty spectacular experience. The half of my audience with his holiness was me like going off on the back I was, I was really extremely just regulated person in general back then, like he asked me a question at one point about what can religious leaders like him? Do it gender based oppression, and I was like well, you ve been here fourteen times. You think it might come back as a woman every once in a while gap is really, and it was not that polite philip did it. It was pretty bad, but also really good cause. We had a really real conversation and in the world

in the conversation. I was really grilling him for advice about how to forgive right. What does that even look like? How does that feel? How do you do it like? What's the one two three and he refused to give me that advice, he kept giving me what at that time I really received as platitudes and not really specific advice. He kept telling me about observing the downside of anger in my life and analyzing whether it has any benefit to the work I'm trying to do in the world and all of that right. At a certain point, I just really lost my temper. I was like I feel, like I'm dying like I need the forgiveness pill, basically prescribe it to me and he still didn't. Instead, he asked me what today s feels most powerful question anyone's ever asked me, which is: do you feel like you, ve, been angry long enough to have his holiness. Give me permission to be. Angry was maybe the greatest gift data received, and I was just like that when I was like

about tears and what I ve been crying for some time. At this point, I sobbing like half the audience ends. We sat there together, anxious sir surveyed angers, diminishing returns, his wings gimme, two pieces of advice and and Rising you'll find that the first piece of advice was to mark tapes. He said and very bright mind, but it was completely out of my own control and that I needed to rein it in and then the second piece of advice it gave me was, he said you'll want to learn to align yourself with your enemies without excusing their behaviour. Consider their humanity understand their past mission and their means at that point, I spiraled into another explosion of rage being like what are you talking about what I'm about to go to law school? those people up. No, I will not align myself of any perfect, but look again like completely

His holiness has got such a kick out of me like leans over he's like patting me on the knee and he's like. Ok, okay, then you just meditate yeah so yeah, so I left that audience and pretty shortly thereafter had to go back to the. U s, and the next thing I did when I got back to the states was I sat attend a professional course and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done, and I thought I was a failure in the first ten minutes, because I couldn't observing in a single in an opera, and I want to leave, day five- they say it's a month ago and they summon things turned around and on the last day, they teach method. Havana which is loving, kindness, meditation. This is the growing. Could you style of the bush international academy course an image of my father rose was actually a flashback that I had repeatedly had of him, molesting me and rather than put that image away. I incorporated him into the loving kindness you not had replayed

I experienced so many times in my young adulthood, where I would be like ice. You know instead of what happened at the time. I was her stunned and never physically fought back, and so I would replay it being like. I fought back, stabbed him to death. I would like recreate this memory. this horrific ways been interesting lately. That's when my migrants started when I started to try to make a different ending to this already horrible store and so what happened instead was an I didn't try to change the past tat I just be what it was, and I included my father, this incredible, loving kindness, peace. Serenity that I arrived at by the day nine and he served dissolved into light and what really interesting is in the weeks and months that followed, I suddenly realized, never have another migraine and I almost some problems. Way, and so I have to tell the story. Sometimes I feel like it sounds like goes

attended course. You'll cure your migraines, and I really don't want people to feel like this. Lady did it and I went in there were my migrants and I walked out with my migrants for hate and that that somehow makes people of failure like these things are doing what are doing their running their course and our lives. For me, that's what happens they were significant changes. In my capacity to be intimate with people, powerful thing that happened with a few weeks later I started law school and realize I had to drop out like in the first two weeks, because my entire plan was to be a prosecutor and I dont want to be prosecuted anymore. Suddenly all the rage and hatred and lock him upness. That was viewing. This whole thing didn't exist anymore, and I was wisely counselled by The person who became my long time meant her in the work to stick it out and ultimately keener. Just me to some folks who defend women who were charged with crimes for having either harmed or killed their abusers organ.

charged with the crimes of the person that was abusing them right, like they were having carried the drugs at a boyfriend whenever it at the time, it was called the national clearinghouse for the defense of battered women, and I ended up through sort of my interest in that kind of thing, ending up becoming a criminal defense attorney and ultimately, even working on capital, defense cases and even working on cases of folks who had sexually harmed kids and so over. The next ten years really deepened. What initially happened through that method? Havin a practice right, Had open your heart, your enemies without excusing their behaviour, consider their humanity. That's what I did my father in met the permanent and that's what I did for ten years. As the colonel defence lawyer, I shortage I've been on this.

You're doing loving, kindness, meditation for your dad and the sooner he dissolves into light. You said before that you don't want people to think hey, go on a ten day, meditation retreat and your migraines will be cured, but I suspect you, you also may not want people to think go on a ten day. Meditation retreat and you're gonna be able to forgive the person who did the worst thing imaginable to you so, I wonder if you could just say more about the mechanism for that forgiveness end, whether that's available to the rest of us, whether we gonna do a retreat or not. So thank you for saying that Dan. I really appreciate that mean. Yes, definitely you know I didn't go thinking that I would forgive my anew. I didn't think forgive my anew during the first said, I thought that when I was and was following his holiness his advice- that if I wanted to work my way towards forgiveness, that I need to rein in my mind,

and so if anyone goes on any retreat and learns to rein in their mind a little bit. That is wonderful, and that is a step towards your own freedom from your suffering. It's nice! That happened to forgive my father. I haven't forgiven anybody else at the end of any other, ten t said, and they are quite a few people that I would like to forgive right and I'm working on it. So I think it really important to not go in with these. You know, like there's gonna, be some hokosa thing at the end. That makes it happen and it isn't hocus pocus, right There were a lot of steps along the way. There was first three days of just breath answer, action? And then there was five and a half days six days of body scanning with deepening. My understanding of the impermanent nature of the physiological phenomenon happening inside my body right and outside and then on the surface in than inside, like looking at the functioning of all of it as impermanent changing changing,

aging and then only then did this feeling the subtle sensations of that impermanent started to be experienced as bliss and then that was something I wanted. Other people experience and it was easy when the loved ones and it was fuzzy wind, the neutral people and then there were people who I can't stand, who had actually was easier for to do after having done these, indies raining in my mind, the image of my father arising was entirely spontaneous, like it literally felt not unlike the flashbacks that I'd had in the past, a wonder in terms of the mechanism. Here, I'm going to take a stab at putting some words to it and then you'll fact check me or tell me. I'm a complete moron, but no I won't let thy jocular a little boy who likes to call my words he for green again gave me I had that just read. I am an imbecile on it, so I was that I live with insult

if he will, however, as soon as he does something like that. Come over and kiss me on the cheek and say I love you, that's important. He bounces it anyway in meditation. One of the things you can see is in you reference this, the relentlessness of change when the mind slows down- and you start to not be so caught up in your stories. Whatever the ego is barking up on a moment to moment basis and you're, actually just paying attention to the raw data of your senses, you can see that everything's changing from slight tension in the knee to and each right next, your nose, which is really uncomfortable to random thoughts about what's for dinner. Things are changing all the time and it doesn't end and that can really be in an interesting way. I gave way to a kind of compassion. Could you could see how any

a mood, I'm feeling right now, it's not so job does mood. I can't find some core nugget of Sir John, the in there I can see it like coming together of atmospheric conditions is torn nato. It's a hurricane. There is no core nugget of tor nato or her came it just because the right conditions come together. You get a meteor allow, google phenomenon. Same is true, for my anger. Same is true, for me is in his body, and the same is true for my dad and for everybody for everybody. I am find difficult were just this crest of a wave of incomprehensibly deep and beginning lists, causes and condition, and if you can see yourself that way- and you can see other people that way, that is perhaps the mechanism for a deep forgiveness. So am I close? Well, you know

Cindy, I think that that something they came to me later. I dont think that that's what happened in the the passionate course so and I There are many different ways to forgiveness. What you just try me is a beautiful when it's one that I think of a lot with this phrase that a friend of mine who was also sexually abused by a family member. He told me that he developed a curiosity that cause them to ask his at some point in their adult life. What happened to you that you did that to me? What happened to you that you did that to me what were the causes in conditions that gave rise to this thing that flowed through our family right and that there was a concern in care like this is what we see happening. You re like, where did the start as a beautiful thing, to look at causes in conditions into not like of real fired. Is my father? This terrible person did this evil act, but rather there were lot of causes in conditions that gave rise to him being a pretty

miserable human being, and one expression of that misery was to harm some of the people around them. But that came later, that's more of an understanding that groove through my public defender years, one every single per I represented, had a chocolate that maiden mind not to diminish my suffering, but economy might look like a cake, walk right comparatively into a passion of course, itself. I was simply freed from my own category: in grasping? At that moment, I was so deeply immersed in the experience of this subtle sensation. The colored bunker unit free form, beautiful, just the sensation, this physical physiological experience. of change is happening in every part of my being and sending that outwards towards everyone who suffers and it just felt so huge and it felt safe. It felt safe to send it out.

indiscriminately everything methods of the everything and My father was in there. That was that experience for me, the steps towards forgiveness, but didn't all happen in that sit. Really think it started when I wrote a letter to his holiness saying help and then sitting with his holiness the experience of being in the presence of his holiness in the column condone in which means present right and he is the most present a human being ever experienced any listened with infinite compassion to the totality of my story. I told him everything about my father and in particular about when I was sixteen and he passed away I was doing cpr on him when he died or but he didn't die at that moment died three days later and I kept him alive little bit longer, and so it's interesting. I've had some therapists terms that I public, sir,

comb syndrome, one there beside it. the sign of my failure to individual based on my over identification of with my indian culture like wow, while but his holiness really made me feel it goes. The finest moment of my life than I was doing, save this person whose death I had at times wished for and so wreath being able to share the totality of all the horror being able to inventory how horrible it had all been for me right and also confess my conflicted feelings about his death, like missing him and being confused. I could say oliver to his holiness, and so before I think we can forget. If we have to really do that deep inventory of how we ve been harmed and what we need and to have someone witness it with infinite compassion and invaluable first step, so Step one and then step to, as I think doing, the cost benefit analysis. Like has anger, served you long enough and

I did out with his holiness, right and being given the permission to still be angry about things about which we have every right to be angry. Every right and rights are ultimately very western. Individual tick think so Okay, then, I may have the right to all kinds of stuff, but do I want to be happy so, and so that's when I came to the conclusion for myself, and so I talked to a lot of boy who, in my work, who have experienced irreparable harm, and yet I meet so many who are saying yes, yes, I have been angry alone so now how right and I think, meditation an excellent way to rein in the mind. But your mind is out here on control. When you are raging against the past can undo it. You can't so now what. I could see that anger was harming my personal relationships, my friends, my boyfriend, my everything I was,

and was harming me was humming, my body, I was miserable, was sharing my misery with everybody, and there is also a kind of her says. You know what. I was in moments of service. I could put all that aside and just be a hundred per cent for other people, but then I reached a point where I couldn't even do that. I couldn't get out the door to go home, and so how is my anger serving anything at that point? and so I am super super grateful for my rock bottom areas. identify with every time. I see that video view. Damn you know able to continue in your news broadcasts always brings chairs mice and just gratitude for you for being so transit about what about worse, the moment ever in your career right because of those moments are the reasons that we are where we are today coming upsurge at the bali got talks about her experience working in the criminal justice system. We define restorative justice

why she believes we needed and what the three questions are, that this process asks in each case whether there is evidence that restorative justice actually works, the limits of restorative justice and what happens when somebody who's, the victim of a crime, does want traditional punishment and even revenge. Audible offers an incredible full Son of audio books across every genre from best sellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, mysteries and thrillers motivation, wellness, business and more as an honourable member. You can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalogue, including the latest best sellers and new releases. The audible out makes it He d, listen anytime anywhere, while travelling working out, walking doing chores and currently listening to see of tranquillity by Emily, saint John mental. I loved her previous.

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You are telling the story of your career, you at the law, school thought about quitting, got it out and became somebody who defended the accused and sometimes people accused of crimes that were similar to the ones perpetrated against you, and then you moved into if memory serves again fact check me something called restorative justice. So what is restorative justice? Ultimately, I wasn't able dancer stomach the criminal legal system as it currently operates right I had been a victim advocate, and I saw that the criminal legal system did not do anything to benefit survivors really like the primary focus, was on punishing the folks who had caused harm right it centred at the states interest. in punishing folks had cost harm, and I didn't really see anyone benefited orders of protection

were violated all the time. Judges refused to enforce thumb like I just at what I was doing. My victim advocacy work. It wasn't. I didn't see myself truly hoping when I became criminal defence lawyer a most ended a pellet work, and I got to The aftermath of so much injustice, it was astounding, how many people got railroaded into, please that were unfair or they were completely innocent of crimes. The system doesn't operate very well even to its own, They did goals right, so we say that the goals of the criminal legal system are incapacitation, for example, rightly want to come. Bad guys away from us, but that doesn't acknowledge the fact that you're putting all these people together, who are super traumatized and causing harm just to harm each other rights. We haven't really income the data people from harming anybody right prisons are not safe places to be right or we say rehabilitation

you look at our recidivism rates, a disaster there's a word that I hate school criminal genetic and it means that, like things that cause people to commit crimes, I think of the thing is the most criminals anything out. There is the criminal legal system itself and incarceration in particular, so this system is an abject failure right. It's not creating public safety, it's just not working and it cost billions and billions and billions of dollars a year and it doesnt centre crumbs survivors in their needs. I went back and I had another audience with his holiness and while I was there, I also started to research the tibetans system of justice prior to chinese occupation, and I was deeply moved by notions in their of Repairing harm and bringing all the parties together in those silk scarves that you got when you're in dharamsala the cutters like in certain points that's easy when they want to see the parties at the end be able to offer each other caught us like. That is how a legal case should truly clothes,

last night we were doing in the. U s like what is that system about? and I started reading about that system and then about other, but this notions of justice and of telling me and about it, and she was like oh you're, talking about restorative justice. She can say my friend susan Marquez, long time, criminal, defense, lawyer, death penalty lawyer. She was like honey, that's restorative justice. I've been telling you about that for years, it's restorative justice, so I started going with heard paintings and workshops, and primarily, initially learn from mennonite folks who serve came up with this term, particularly howard. Zaire. The bottom line is that it's about bringing people together after thing, I'm gone wrong and having a conversation with family and community present in order to come up with a plan to repair the harm, and this can happen even after really really horrific crimes and harms and My work has been about trying to figure out how to do that in lieu of the criminal legal system. So how do we do this instead of the abject disaster that is mass criminalization, indian

it states so in anywhere in the world really like. I really hope that the rest of the world does not follow in our footsteps. I hope that they will look at our data and see that our systems don't do a good job and that they have insane racial and ethnic disparities and do not produce any good outcomes? So I did not for fifteen years, I helped start soon programmes across the country where young people who commit pretty serious offences, things that could be labelled, felonies are diverted out of the system before those kids are charged with crimes and they get an opportunity to work with restorative justice facilitators to sit face to face with the person who harmed them, who they harmed rather and with their family and their community, both of them having support worse and through a facilitated dialogue that we model that, after I, maui process, comes from a terror also known as new zealand, fiscal, family group conferencing, and so we modified that to make it work in the western cunt.

Soon? We hope we ve done it in a way that does not feel like appropriation, feels like appreciation and beneficial application of these incredible techniques, and why is being wise together where we get to the root of what happened, and how can we make things right and we start with the person who experienced the harm we ask: how are you harmed? What do you need and whose obligation is to meet those needs, and the conversation in the plan comes at a people, get real people to almost everything about what happened and how they experience things and what they did so that's a very high level hoover few. Both the reserve justice rises work that I've done. So now my hope is to actually start to bring it into intimate partner and sexual violence have been doing that for the past few years and also looking at buddhist roots of where this might come from coming back to that. So there's so much reliance on indigenous wisdom around these things and mennonite folks to so dna navajo peacemaking

like a mention: molly family go conferencing, etc, and I've been thinking a lot about. What is a buddhist restorative justice? Look like the routes from within my own lineage. That could help me become a better restore justice facilitator. So let me ask a typical journalist question these their evidence that restorative justice works and perhaps even works better than the traditional criminal justice system. I'm going to have to tell listeners that I didn't pay down to ask a question at my previous organization impact justice, where I worked for a long time as the director of the restorative justice project. We have done and worked with the people to do multiple studies of the many places across the country where we are helping community based, nonprofits, facilitate these cases, and we have shown repeatedly forty four percent reduction,

instead of islam. What does it say that again, like we call success like a five per cent, better six per cent better to say forty four percent reduction in recidivism? So if a kid gets sent to restorative justice, where they get enough didn't he meet with the person they harmed and complete a plan to make it right. Forty four percent less likely to be rearrested, re charged with a crime all that right and the as faction rate for participating crimes, survivors is ninety one percent, and this is with felonies, so spray big deal. So, to my mind, there is the question of we say that these court unquote alter limbs. Are you know that too risky feared that there's none of big enough evidence based? I mean at this point we ve done both of comparative. simple, anna randomize control trial on the stuff. So When are we gonna say that instead of spending the money,

winds of dollars that we spend on locking children and adults up that we might do this instead, cause it's actually in the public interest is actually in the public interest to do restorative justice. What would your most reasonable critic say about what the limits of restorative justice are? Can my most reasonable critic right and in some ways I would say: well, I think the limits of restorative justice are is it's an imagination thing right now. I don't think we can imagine the emptying all the presents right. So I think we have a real deficit of a necessary resource in order to do this work well and it is believed that good things can happen that we could live in a world where there could be a feelings of safety and accountability without punishment? So that's a piece of it. Another piece of it is that it's not

work in every case. There will be a handful of people, a handful of people who even the most skilled facilitator and the most compelling. when crime survivor and the most resourced family in terms of offering the person whose cause harm like unconditional love and support to complete and repair the harm and their stolen. Don't do it. There's gonna be a couple people like that. I think that the monster that is always would The system we got now working are we catching everybody? Is everybody were catching never doing it again is? everybody we're catching taking responsibility in a way that is really satisfying to the person that they harm. Does that what court looks like in america every day? No, it's not! So how about we try this other thing right. So I feel very confident in saying that the world all restorative justice instead of what we're doing now would be a much much much better world. I feel very clear about that. Like data wise in terms of what our

actives are and what outcomes we're going to get so yeah, I'm not saying it's perfect, then. Therefore, I don't know if I've fallen to the true believer category, you know, but I do think that it would be an incredible improvement over what we do. One limit that just comes to mind for me possibly is on the victim side. I know may not be the right terminology, but if somebody deliberately harmed my child or my wife for my brother, my mom whatever I might want revenge whatever It looks like either something I did on my own or something that could be meted out by the state, and I might what I literally personally, might not want restoration of the flavor that you're offering up,

there's two things. I'd say to that, and I really appreciate your candor about that, and I think that there are a lot of people who feel that way and I don't think we can know until a thing happens right. So that's one of the things I find really interesting is when crime survivors contact me- and they say you know- have lost a family member to the homicide and I don't want to go through the regular criminal legal system. Will you help us find a restorative justice facilitator to do, this and usually the answers we can't because the state doesn't allow it or whatever, but they often say I would have never dreamed in a million years that I'd be a person trying to hunt this process down. we don't know how punitive we're gonna feel when the things is until the thing actually happens and I gave myself permission to say I don't know how punitive I might feel if somebody harm my child, I spouse of I aspire to the things that fired too and that I'm trying to help the world create. But I dont know what my initial reaction is going to be. So there's two things: one is too I'm down like ask me

The do things immediately is not giving people the taught the diet to honour the trajectory that their own healing journey might take, and the time lines that we run. Everything on these days is the time of the state right. So it's like you, gotta get this done before that preliminary hearing in this, not the other, and so I'm just curious about what it would look like to build an entire and based on the timeline that is required for the healing of the people who are most directly impacted by the harm, and so that that's just like one piece? I would interjected the other thing that I'm thinking about with regard to. That is something that my friend Daniel Sarah talks about. She says, imagine that you're in a desert and everyone is starving and walking across the desert, and you know it's been days and they're running out of water and they haven't eaten in days and all the others, a hamburger truck in the middle of the desert. everybody lines up under the hamburger truck. Can you say that is the most popular hamburger truck in the desert? Can you even

say there are no vegetarians in this group, like a vegetarian. Signed up for my burger, and so I think When we think about a punitive response, we ve been steeped in it for so long. We ve been told that justice is which meant for so long and we again haven't been given any? base for imagination of other ways. Things can be done. So we can imagine what would happen if, god forbid anything like this ever happened to anyone. ass. We just don't know what our immediate response would be. We don't know a couple of weeks or months or whatever into a process that we might actually not like what the state has on offer look for something else. We know now unless we ve been through that situation. So that's a couple of things that I would say. Another thing is that in working today with the system as it currently operates right, I never shame people who don't want to do.

process and mike. If you want to do this other thing that is on offer, like I'm, not the person to guide you through that, and thank you so much for being honest about what you're needs are and what what if you want to take, but I am really invested in trying to make the opportunity available for every single person who asks for it today. Particularly crime survivors like I've, got a father right now, whose child had a psychotic break and killed his other child and almost killed him, and he is begging for a restored justice resolution. Instead they have taken his sixteen have seventeen year old child and charged him as an adult and locked him in adult facility. That's what's happening today: oh, that's a different situation causes a man being concerned with some kid. You know, but I I do here from crumbs survivors, I didn't even know the person who took their loved ones, life and they say not in the system on offer. Can you help me and the answers personally, usually no. We shake every dream

try to find an amenable district attorney or police department that would be willing to data and its hard it's hard to get people to make in massive paradigm shift, and that's the thing that restoring This is in the end, is a massive paradigm shift instead of asking you know, these are howard's, airs questions. He says instead of asking what law was broken, who broke it and how should we punish them, we're short of, is asks who was harmed and what do they need and whose obligation is it to meet those needs? So I mean that is a big shift in the way in which we approach all of this stuff right to have a needs based inquiry right, where's. Everyone here need and then also as a question about the person who caused the harm. What did they need in order to

never do this again whether they need to begin with so that they wouldn't have gone down this road in the first place. What are they need now in order to help make things right coming up so jaffa talks about some practical, take away from her meditation and restorative justice practices and a specific meditation practice that you can bring? bear if you ve got some forgiveness, you might want to do. Are you looking to straighten your teeth, but the thought of monthly dennis visits or a mouthful of metal? Has your rethinking it transform your smile with bite, clearer, liner, bite clear liners are doktor directed and cost. Thousands lost embraces, skip that traffic to the debt, and straightened your teeth from the comfort of home bite. His head over a quarter of a million people, use their clear liners already and they have both done I'm an nighttime options, depending on what most convenient for you plus there my bite app, can help you track your alignment, progress due chickens and connect with us at any time

visit b y t e dot com to order? Your at home impression kit today for just fourteen dollars and ninety five cents using code, wonder he start your clear aligner journey with fight. That's code wondering to get your impression for just fourteen dollars and ninety five cents paradigm, doesn't just make bikes. They also make treadmills aunt rowers with palatine. You could do a quick right on the bike, a power walk on the tried or a full body boot camp on the road so it doesn't matter if you exercise daily or if your new to work out paladin. help you achieve your fitness schools try palatine bikes better road risk, free with the thirty day home trial, new members only available in remote locations see additional terms one palatine dot com, slash home, dashed trial. Eu standards is really interesting, crossroads of meditation, restorative justice and I'm curious. for the rest of us in our day to day lives. What have you learned that we can apply? It may not be related to crime per se, but it

be to our annoying uncle or our child, you will listen to us or spouse against whom we ve been carrying a grudge or whatever. So how can we take this extraordinary set of experiences you ve had and apply them to our day to day lives. Thank you for that beautiful question then yeah. So a few things I would say being a little bit more serve introspection around what it is that we need so the first question. You harm to. What do you need us to first questions and restorative justice? I think they can be applied to little things too. They knowing uncle and instead of just habitually reacting to the annoying uncle that might ratchet up the annoying uncles unwillingness, we can pause and say: what's my real need here and what may need underneath that meat and, what's my need, underneath that mean entered take time after the fact to go back and all right, breathe, meditate on what is happening with you that

so irritating. What's your need at that moment, and then, before the next time you together with the annoying uncle. Can you get some of those needs met? Maybe my uncle not so annoying that you couldn't actually tell him link. Does there's mean that you'd say this. Do this or whatever- and this is how this lands on me- this doesn't work for me. I really care about you, and I want to be in a good relationship with you in this part of our relationship is really hard for me, what maybe that uncle isn't gonna be amenable to that right. Maybe you need to tell some other people so when asking your harmed in what you need all those needs, don't always have to be met by the person who caused the harm they can get met by other people right. So, for example, you used to have this circle the first south asian survivors of child sexual abuse? None of us ended up It's early confronting anybody who harmed us from our childhood sped. we had needs to voice what happened within a culturally specific space. We had a need to tell our whole truths. We had a need to have that we witnessed we have

the inventory, the shame and secrecy that surrounds child sexual abuse. One way down a road that is to talk to people hope that what out then rain and to get vulnerable in safe places, so there are a whole bunch of other needs that you have the king at met. So one of the biggest things I've learned from restorative justice is to be very clear about needs and where they can get met. That third question. That makes it justice that whose obligation is to meet those that's. What makes it a justice paradigm to my mind, that may or may not happen in all our lives, but we can still be happy when it doesn't. We can still be supported by other people, so there's that and then yeah. What do I mean to take into these things? Wonder what do I have in my toolbox for emotional management? So that's a big that's a big peace than I think I relying on my breath or something that I do all the time you know in dialogue. I am relying on my meditation practices all the time when I am holding a restorative justice space. There are many ways in which the teachings from

but the boy, the dogma and meditation, even more secular meditation, come in handy right at the deepest level, I would say these notions of interdependence. What take not han talks about. We in turn are really lines with this notion of a boon to a person is a person through other people, or I am because we are he's deepest notions of interdependence are happening with everyone we are encountering, including the people we can stand such It's I enter are with you, even when you are really offending me. We in turn are all the time, and so that that is justified. Start to open our minds to these ideas and to time on when you're, in the space of people who are bugging you for me, there's also these foreign measurable I echo nimitti, love, compassion and joy.

I really bring into my restorative justice practice that sort of the basis of how I facilitate right, like I want us all to not hold some close and others distant. I want us to road. The notion of enemy address my work in it. It's really freeing for us to have an enemy so starting to see someone that we press. To be our enemy and try to think of ways in which, though, not like us, britain, not my enemy right, whereas our shared humanity, so digging into some of these concepts I think, can be beneficial, but primarily, I would say on the daily finding your anchor in the conflict zone. What is your way of being your best self? What are the values that you hold to and what you used to tether yourself to them when you are in these sticky situations. Those are some of the questions that I try to work with, not just in restorative processing

we always start with like what are the shared values that we have in this room, and how are we going to communicate with one another as we're working through this really difficult situation? But then it's a question that you could just ask yourself out there in the world. How do I want to walk around in the world today and what is going to tether me to that? And how am I going to be my best self? My spouse thinks of some, He says he visual, as is like the dalai lama, on his shoulder. Things are getting really. She did in this situation, so you come up with all kinds of techniques that and after he told me that I started using that in my restorative justice processes and ask people to think who's. The person hops you do. Your best self help to be the most wise and kind and honest communicator that you can be okay, that person sitting on your shoulder through this whole circle, so I dunno, maybe listeners, can think of who they're putting on their when they go into that meeting that they hate every week. With that person

who are they gonna put other shoulder for that weak? I like that. I know who I am putting on my shoulder. Joseph Goldstein, incredible meditation, teach you how wonderful so, but I do want to go back to this interaction. stuff. You talk about before that we're interconnected, even when there are annoying uncle even with somebody, is really hurt us way beyond mere Hence I know in that one. At least I understand and you'll tell me if I'm wrong, that one of the tools, the meditative tools that you ve used to boost their muscle and a really is a muscle. This molecular understanding of interdependence is of meditation that uses the phrase just like me. I love it. I learn that from dish up in Juba, his holiness principle translator into English, the just like meditation. I led meditation on Monday nights at my temple, the guitar foundation in richmond, and we do not want a lot less well that afterwards the people who are meditating there

often come up to me. We let go into that one more often, and you know there's some repeated phrases that I use my change him from tat at the time, but just like me, this person wishes to be happy just like me. This person doesn't want suffering. Just like me. This person wishes to be at ease. Just like me. This person wishes to be at peace so for me, anger no longer arises about the very worst things and when you could maybe call acquittal quote the very worst people years ago my son came home in the middle of a burglary and was held at gunpoint and he's fine and has had an using powerful killing trajectory out of that disaster and in all of our stuff was taken, and I was just spend more than anything, helping my son. This was a month before we ended up in walk down the pandemic. So now we're stuck in the house where the thing happened right

Not once did anger arise at the people who who did that to my son and never? Any anger and I've been like gonna think anything I can only think about, but desperation. What might have been feeling when they're holding this poor kid up. Like Y know, my son told me that the guy's voice was shaking like feel I want to know everything about that guy? I would love to help restore justice dialogue with him. I I have never known this to be true before this thing happened about myself Meanwhile, people who don't you their turn signals at a time of all like turned at the last second came and made it through that yellow light those people not a fan of those, and I think, ugly, things about the ugly things about the term signal people. But for me it's really important to be gentle with yourself when you do this practice right. So, just like me How are we just like these folks at a minimum every

everywhere, his holiness. As this all the time, none of us want to suffer. All of us want to be happy, and can we suspend our judgement at that moment where we go with them? Why they do in that it? Ok! Well, there's a reason: what happened to you that you do that and I think I think, gorgeous another practice that I'm learning and restorative justice that I've learned from so many indigenous people, a matter of language, so don't use labels like a rapist and murderer, I say the person who raped somebody- and I know it's a mouthful and it's a lot of work. but what I love about it is that I learned from one of my teachers, justice, Javert rosy robert yazzi was the form chief justice of the navajo nation and he is a peacemaker. Now he summoned in his language. There's no word for offender. The lot of indigenous languages have verb based languages right

and, like a word like woman, according to another indigenous teacher and whether the run said does no one woman you, a woman is standing over there. The a woman is happening over there. Identities are in flux and flow, which totally me my brother sensibilities right like yeah. Thank goodness we're all changing, and so justice yazzi says: there's a war for fender its acting as if you have no relations acting out of concert with the notion of all my relations and when I think about my father literally was acting as if I wasn't, whose family, acting as if he was not held in this beautiful met of our collective existence. So for me I try to see everybody that way you know and when my acting as if something right, I love the robin walk hammer wrote this brilliant buck breeding sweet grass that, like everybody's red ever, does read it. Everybody should read it and there's a huge

section in there in this chapter that I think is called learning the grammar of animals see. I think it's once called in its and she's trying to learn her mother tongue. Relearned and she's, like everything, is a verb Basically, like instead when something a bay, you'd say to be a bay we gwig alma. Word wick way, gama to be a bad, because she said it could be a river and it'll, be a stream and it'll be rain and it'll be missed. Ah, that's all of us right how gorgeous, and so that is also true of my father, and that is true of people I have represented that have killed a p They are a person who, at one point in their lives the causes and can do

since arose, and then they made a choice within those causes and conditions and they killed someone and that's not what they have to be and that's how they have to continue to be. People who had served time for taking people's lives were amongst the people who cleaned my glass and my house after that burglary with my son, people who had served decades for terrible crimes were amongst the first at my doorstep, to clean up lapsing. So We are all in a constant state of change. Thank goodness and for me my teacher gives you a contract Tenzin said something the other day that on sundays teachings, he said something about. Even if you ask a buddhist for where they're going they answer. Is motherhood pretentious that So what I ve been thinking about it like, where am I going leg, was my destination and admit so. Many people who

unbeknownst to them, maybe even after having done horrific things in this lifetime layer clearly on their way to, but the hood, and so I want to try with those people whoever's go in that direction. One of the buddhist converts was a serial killer used aware, like a necklace of fingers, You took your ugly mother, so angle we might arrive. I thought about naming one of our cats that little that's not to cure it out so yeah as he walked in. I was chilling watching t v, the other night home. He walked right into the room and dropped a dying mouse on the floor like blood coming out maybe there's a word and sanskrit from mouth homelike, mouse marilla. I had a million question for you. I got to like a fraction of them, which I say that as a compliment before I let you go. If people to learn more about. You are their resources you ve put out in the world that we can access the others to places. One is my website, it there's lots of times.

Some of the upcoming things I'm doing with minded life institute the summer. So you can find that on my website, which is to suggest the volga dot com for more of the restorative justice specific stuff that is around youth diversion and like how do we circumvent the criminal system. I am no longer with impact justice. There's an amazing team of folks there who hurricane work forward without me for the most part put my head sometimes and that you can learn more about at the website, is impact justice, dot, org, and you can look for the restored. justice project in there, and there is an incredible tool: kit, actually, R J D we're since for restoring. this diversion r, J d tool, kit, dot, org and

Anything you want to know about starting your own restorative justice. Youth diversion programme are, I think, they're working beyond youth. Now at this point, I would look there and see more about that suggested by local. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you for your work and thank you for coming on the show you that, thank you damn things for haven't. We appreciate it thanks again to suggest the ballet. Thank you as well to everybody who worked so hard on the show. Ten percent happier is produced by gabrielle, sacrament d kashmir, justine davy, Lauren smith and Tara anderson, our supervising producer is mercer. Schneider men can be regulars, are managing producer. We get scoring and mixing from the great peter bonaventure over. ultra violet audio and nick thorburn of the band islands road our theme

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java is history. Wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the amazon, music or wondering iap. Life is short, and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What is happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on earth and what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on. My weekly podcast life is short with justin long Looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions like what is the meaning of life can really help you, but I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others and that's why each episode I like to talk with matters musicians, artists signs is and many more types of people by how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs, and sometimes, more importantly, the loaves of their careers. We discuss how they ve been able to stay happy during summer the harder times, but if I'm being honest, did say it mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff like if,

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