During their cross-county meditation bus tour in January, our host Dan Harris and meditation teacher Jeff Warren stopped in Tempe, Arizona, to talk with Sylvia Moir, who has been the head of the Tempe Police Department for the past year. Chief Moir says her mindfulness practice has not only helped her during high-stress police calls but also in how she engages with and leads her fellow officers.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey guys. Sorry, my voice is a little raspy today, I'm recovering from a cold but quick to be by the two year old, petri dish who lives in my house and goes by the name of Alexander anyway. I digress. This podcast is going to sound a little different because we recorded it in the field and I have a co host on the thigh cast. It's one of my favorite. Meditation teachers Jeff Warren. You may have heard the Pike S we recorded with him a couple weeks ago. Jeff and I did this whole Big cross country meditation, tore a few weeks ago when the people we met on the way was chief Sylvia Moyer from the ten T, Arizona Police Department, by the way that I pronounce ten p, it's not Tempi, as I was anyway. Chief Moyer is a meditative and she's pretty new at the departure,
in Tempi and has been trying to get her folks there to meditate and has gotten a lot of, and- and this comes of course, at a really interesting time in the relationship between the community and the police department commute It is all over the country and police departments very tense time and their some thinking in some where's that teaching cops out of tat may have some real benefit and you're gonna hear from an extremely articulate and very tough minded person who's trying to put this into practice. So I give you a chief Sylvia, more along with Jeff Warren, who you'll hear conducting the questioning with me for maybe see. This is a ten percent. Have your podcast I'm down her chief? Thank you for sharing. I realize I ve been spending much of my life.
Pronouncing the name of your fair city. I did the very same thing I was corrected in the interview process when I was testing to come to the Tempi team They said, but you say Tempi your Tempi and I said well, I Tempi now they said you should change that sent. So I did this and how did you get into bed? It was an interesting had a pathway for me. It was a student at the naval Postgraduate school. I was a practising chief of police in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I read an article by lieutenant richer growing and to be compelling and what the mindfulness practice offered for the United States military and in the private sector, and I thought huh I wonder if there is something that would make sense in policing too.
Help us as police officers as police executives, help us help our people with Ms Japan. I shall explain. Lieutenant Richard gambling is he's he's police officer in Portland Oregon Found meditation and has been using it in his own work and his own department and he becomes are of a national and it was among police officer he has, I think there's a lot. He bring science, he brings reason he brings credibility and what he does it see sets a stage that is really easy for sceptics today, vin and start engaging in the practices. I think It's really wrote in an interesting way and The time I was not only in the new postgraduate schools, a student and achieve but I was also connected with the board the California Police Chiefs Association.
And we were examining training that we deliver not only to executives in policing but to police officers, and it was a natural thing for me to be inquisitive and ask him what it was about and would there be applications that we can provide in policing in California start from there. that was my entry was inquiring connecting with him. the science and then I became a kind of a practitioner kind of I kinda remember that you know I just thought well is this song crunchy granola thing out of Oregon I was. I am a, I think, some said fidgety for fidgety sceptics. I may fidget. sceptic I'm one of those people that have never been board a moment, my life, because I've always got things happening. My head and I thought meditation and that I had to cease thinking
and engage in something different. I said: well, if that's what it is I'll, never be able to do it. So I can do so. My path candle later to being a practitioner and then bringing the promises of the practice to policing and what that's like. How did you get over that hope? I really did it damn by to saying let this isn't about me. This is about diving into a potential practice that, if it creates meaning, if it helps guardians police officers with the acute chronic and cumulative stress and the talk Sicily of this work than I absolutely have a responsibility to learn more and if it makes sense, bring it to placing was alive, liberating to realize that you don't have to stop thinking it was. It was mine, lying there I thought I'm going to be sitting there and I M on distracted by a lot of things, and I thought I'm going to hear some clock taking
I'm going to hear a bird I'm going to as a police officer. I'm going to hear footsteps, I'm going to want to react to those footsteps to safeguard people in this heightened awareness. That police officers always have to have, I thought I'm never can be able to do it and mindfulness gave me permission. I can describe it like this. Mindfulness is, is awareness non judgment. All attention to the kind of evolving experience that were have him and as a prayer, tichenor. I I learned that it's ok recognised that there is a distraction. I always say thank you, because I want to be in gratitude. Niger say thank you for that destruction. I come back peacefully. So the fact that I got permission to do that and to drift every once in a while- and it was ok- was the
liberating permission for me. Amazing. So so well said the M weaken this this moment of realizing. You got distracted that the intelligent move, saying thank you and going back I mean that is such a smart move that most people don't realize how important that is, because when you, if you're, actually getting frustrated at that moment, instead your training yourself to never want to kind of notice, because it's gonna be there not gonna get a reward. But if you're saying thank you, it's like you just creating a totally friendly in a climate that then actually increases the possibilities, need being able to to concentrate more fully. There's only take there's only take the eight years to learn the army ages. Have you seen hurried away, yeah that super upon I really turned to the way we are guided, because I think So often environmental teacher, you mean yes, Miss Turner, ass day, immersion, though that we went through with,
with Richard Agnes his and his CO partners, co teacher, and so I because it did for me was give me permission, and I think so often we need in order to be something different than a construct that we have an idea or a notion that we have, and so that was incredibly helpful for me and that's a part of my practice. I I really practice gratitude a lot. I say thank you for the people to come at me with anger. I say thank you for things that I used to fight against and its give me a really interesting kind of path since about imagine a workable listening. This will be like well after saying thank you to the people coming after we've anger- and you know all the typical thing you guys are out here. Do you know the kind of handle all the problems to look at it saying thank you to all of them how we going to get rid of the problems
am. I wouldn't believe these words are coming out of my mouth and I believe and my soul twenty years ago and then a policing for since nineteen eighty eight totally different era, and I think it's an evolution really, and I think that by saying thank you, I'm not fighting against it. We we talk a lot in the executive circles of policing and really among some amazing thought, waiters, and we talk a lot about the corrosive drip of policing and that each event is this corrosive drippin by by really having practices help us build resilience, and I think gratitude is part of it saying thank you for that experience, but for that suffering in finding meaning in this suffering and and fighting against this kind of thinking, I think it would be really difficult
yeah it's interesting here. It's actually an even deeper practice, then there's already the practice of accepting. What's coming that welcoming thing than you? U cultivated meditation the equanimity, but the gratitude is like an extra level on because it's implicit what's implicit in it- is saying, there's a lesson in this for some for me to learn about this experience tat it has meaning that honours. The experience puts a whole new level on two things, and I think that you may I guess your teachers are really getting. You got good instincts, but that's that's where emulate. That's faint! Thank you for that cause. It's really To me. That's a really key to remaining open hearted, I mean policing. Is this incredible profession that I dont think people have you say going under the hurt that actually can creepy in cop terms terms, I say: pull back the curtain to kind of demystify and I think I've found police officer.
being credible people that we view our responsibility. Our duty in this call, as we are guardians always and lawyers when we need to be- and I think your experience with the men and women of Tempi police earlier today- probably illustrated that for your kind, compassionate people, but tough as nails to just to fill that- and we spend more time with many of your office- earlier, and these folks, who are bucks, our whole heartedly, embracing the practice of meditation and I was, President was like you know. I love you will be like this. Is you you're gonna lose your edge? You need to be tough on this job in there and they were saying. Actually this makes us better because we're not at war, with our own internal experiences, were more aware of what the kind of stress were feeling we're not taking. Whatever aggression came out in the last call into the next calls were better at connecting with the people were out there protecting, and I agree with that
courage. It takes courage because there's this narrative around police officers that that we are hard and tough and cynical- and I think tough in here cynical, perhaps in one kind of description, but I think it's it totally courageous, to engage in a way that helps us experience what's unfolding and to be authentic in the way that we're delivering service similar interpreting this environment think one of the problem seeing things that mindfulness offers. Besides this incredibly important resilience, peace expanding perspective. Peace is, I think, the problem we'll be in and standing, the path of others, the experience of others that are fair and impartial using practices will be enhanced as a result of mindfulness practices, because it's free
judge minutes free of kind of identity, what you're going to experience and just taking in what this unfolding experience offers, and I think, there's real promise for all of us. Discursive. You ever had any kind, a real challenge trying to apply it where's the site. You are trying to apply the principles of man. It's so hard in this particular situation. Gonna fatigue is one I think. Always it's interesting place them where I said It takes incredible administrative and professional courage. to courage We encourage the practices of meditation, placing because people are like when you talk about like yours, really just because of the very question you asked the officers earlier, What are you talking about? This is going to make you lose your edge you're going to be soft. What about the tactical
Sesar the year of the job. How? What about the you know that you have It makes split second decisions and be tactically sad. I offer that it makes us more. Tactically. Sound I am not one. The big challenges I have now is cultivating the discipline not to be a strict cop so. Let me tell you what that means for me is not a field operator anymore. I don't get to go into police car and touch people to neighbourhoods and and connect with people and bid first hand person, they concern deuce harm in the neighborhood ice. the men and women that serve the community. I think the challenges I use, meditative practices, mindfulness practices differently. I use them in this room,
the men this room earlier. I meet with a variety of groups. The different things that I engage with ESA Police executive now range from budgets, personnel strategy policy, community engagement developments internally, identifying strategic priorities for us and I meet with a lot of people that are really angry. I meet with people that are suffering that don't feel they ve been served by the justice system and so. I do it in this room with family members of lost someone fat officers. that have done wrong and I'm holding them accountable, and so I have to use it differently. use it in a very static invite where I'm not using mindfulness practices as many afar field, uniformed officers are
they're using it to enhance their her there, cognitive abilities and all the other things that we talked about so The challenge is on triggered, like any other human being. the challenge is using it in the press, That's a meeting with people better and stress and distress, and it's also for one people take out their anger on me and its in those moments where have to really engage but also listen, engage with the practices, but also listened to some extent, does just curious. Is it feel any different applying them in this context that I did when you on the street or just it's the same thing? I just wanted to say. I think it's a little different here because The chief people look to me for these micro accuse my face and he coloring any I,
How little go up a squint fat? I think they look to me for my car keys for feedback, so I have to be very aware of how I'm practising it and also state completely engage with listening total issue. Basically, you have got to walk the talk. that's the thing, but when you're teaching your modelling and all the time- and you are modeling it in a way- that's like next level, because you have so many people who are looking to you can give me too much credit. I don't think I'm teaching. In the end, the way you hold yourself administered a like there's, explicit teaching, and what you actually pointing out the principles, but then there's implicit teaching and just like talking but the practice and in the way you talk,
by the way you tear yourself. It becomes obvious, then there's something going on there. That's actually the part that I think people are most influence by in a way. It is basically role models because we hold it in your body, language you hold it in here and how you are. Perhaps he can't it's hard to say that I think it's hard to think anything. It's like I love being Tempi, I love being a cop, I love being chief that I asked of people for people and to identify those things that make a difference in the lives of our employees. Internally, our professional staff and our sworn staff. They can all benefit from this that we are committed Holy but we have five key initiatives, always the first one firmly placed farmer this address and reduce crime in the fear of crime. On the other end, Our fifth key initiative is employee D,
What many resilience- and this is one piece of that the other piece the permission to to grow holy develop as an entire human being and as a police practitioner user. Morbid back, that's an interesting philosophy to have to the police. I think it's amazing, but that idea of moving towards full development person. So I think what it argues is. We think I think in most professions with it I'm going to develop you as a journalist and so you're going to look at these this now judge Base and perhaps in policing? Is there there's knowledge, but there is also the abyss the two analyzing synthesize and evaluates some high order. Thinking. It also argues that we are developing people in terms of their experiences. were developing the whole person so developing heart and mind. I guess and saying
in policing its essential that we respond. We dont react and this is really interesting evolution. That's caring intent so I took over for a chief they'll- be here for a lot of years. He did some some amazing things and he had his very own culture and this the culture and the organization now, as I think, becoming a little bit different. We are contemplating we respond. We we don't term react to things in a way that would be like the fire of the day. We are very, we think, We respond as in a different way, think to develop the whole person is to save it you're, not just to your here. It's include practices that you can be everything that you are spiritually here, that what makes up the whole person
and whoever you are. You are welcome here and you don't have to spend time and energy being something that you're not in order to assimilate to what you believe a culture will accept. So I think some of that is over some of its covert and I think that We are giving broader permission for people to to be and serve our community as guardians of people in the way that is right for them and the community that they serve, and I think it might be a little bit different. I think there are a lot of incredible police executives. Do some amazing things in this round What is your meditation practice? Look like when you do it's ugly, Dear Dan, at my age, do the cross legged on the floor thing, I can't do it. Auditor Amateur chair can a person. So nice,
routines. I haven't completely habituated my meditative practice, I some of it. I have habit in the early morning. I I like to run and get my juices flying and then I meditate, it is said, and is following a guided app that has helped me send me to give myself permission to sail, came as a distraction, but this unfolding experiences. Thank you hand to follow it. Am I right so the practice what it looks like this quickly me sitting in a chair going through a guided app when I'm alone, if I'm here my office, I'll just close the door for just a ten minute tune up because the daily life for police, executive and a municipality like Tempi Is us Ex thirty in the morning till tonight. I think we're done around ten the array of subjects that we engage with her some
a really heavy and some are more light. Then we get to be innovative and plan for the future. But I will be sit in a chair and just be mine really is centred around an expression of gratitude for health and clarity and just really humbling being in the position that a man here in this chamber. The gratitude probably gives you resilience and since it gives you energy, because you have taken a moment to have that kind of appreciation or help scheme can it can actually to a feeling of meaning and Energy Minister understand how that ports. What you do doing here, it seems fundamental. I don't know five an answer for you, but I found that in all areas of my life, it's been of the centre for me and
doesn't always aware that I was in gratitude, but in some way it's just kind of surfaced over time. They shared with you earlier that, I think, being a chief of police in ten p is the most liberating professional experience of my life, because I really nothing that I do about me: Sylvia Moyer. It's about the role of the chief and the men and women of the organization, and so somebody I know somebody or write me a note and say from smoking dope or something that that's really lofty daddy, really but a real. I believe then it's been liberating for for me and I I feel that the kind of service they re engage in this time and policing people sale time. Some worse time to be a cop says, the six sixties we ve been really engage with. How do we
please how do we engage with communities? How We serve people that they are different needs and wants, and complexity? Policing is so vast. This Social net has failed in some ways in the police have stepped into fill it, and I think we ve gone beyond the origins of policing communities and fill gaps that perhaps aren't natural to us, but we're trying to make it work. I think it's the best time to be a police officer at best time to be police executive because I think their social permission to do things that are different. Their social permission to gauge with people differently. Think differently, perhaps speak differently, take different action and I think that's what
This is the right time for these practices to take hold its really problems. I think you're. Also, you have a culture of people who are used to doing Dan pointed out to me you're used to training or used to thinking about like working on skills, and that's just part of the culture of this place. Good point of this profession, great point, because we're really good at finding those, I call them perishable skills, the shooting, driving defensive, tat. takes all the laws always changing. And what we're doing with mindfulness practices were saying. Look we're going to give you a set of tools. You take it. You use it for whole you, personal and professional, make it what works for you, maybe a low Corky. maybe a little bit different than Dan does or may be different.
then somebody else does, but you make it yours and continue to practices and master the scale, and I think there is you ve got- is a great point because retrain consistently, so were you that kind of cadence? How do you imagine it helping your officers in very specifically? What what can I do? Fear if I'm an officer has helped me, do my job better. So I think a couple ways. One is that if, if we are, more aware, the unfolding experience, then I think it lends too seeing the environment differently and from an operational or tactical perspective, if anything can get us to calm down and increase r r cognition Increase our awareness than benefits us, the other
is that for self. There are acute, chronic and cumulative. if stressors, really the toxicity of of policing things, we often don't talk about, we can build resilience, then we are more healthy throughout our career and at the end of our career. So out of broken people closed off their her heart in their sole, because it saves them from suffering and think those are two real ways that the practice shows a lot of promise. Policing were at a time in the country where they show much tension between the police and the community or there's so much tension between some police department,
some communities do you think my fulness and meditation is something that can actually help with these really profound and sometimes violent cat chasms that exist without a doubt. I think the practice shows promise for getting us to be present. Not take triggers now take the bait that makes us react and if the practice it can get us to see the perspective of another, to enhance our compassion, then, I think it does lend itself to broader application in policing and trusting. I met with members of our EAST Valley NAACP this morning, and we are talking about is about how we engage with with my brother's keeper initiative. From the White House how we engage with young men and boys of color how we engage with youth that the brain
fully developed yet and there's a lot of science. It says a young man brain, doesn't fully developed eyes. Twenty four just shocking for me, because I hire man twenty one, but still have developed, forty five well, you know we're all works in progress, but if we can teach practices to get, people marginalized communities caregiver police officer, everybody. If we, if we can engage practices than in some way offer us an abyss, We to move through the dialogue. Compassion and to learn from each other. Then why? Wouldn't we encourage it? I think it shows a lot of promise and brought her areas and just policing her medicine, maybe ation another high stress, environment, semi journalism surrender is much fires, the cops right now, and so we think
now. How does one state can a true to that Noble endeavour the why we enter the professions we enter and if the practice shows promise there and helps us remain true to answering the call to journalism entering the all harm to policing or whatever profession. We enter into his report, our hearts and souls into it. We spend our majority of our lives in a professional. Environment and if, if the practice helps us there remember, why we got into it and returns us to this place of gratitude. Then you should continue
the signal. I don't know it's funny a chuckle with Richard Girlish last week. I M really connected with him in terms of what he's doing in this arena, and he said you know you basically been doing this stuff. Your whole life has an athlete were taught to breathe as a police, professional or talk to breathe, recalled to combat breathing back in the days we could have clarity in and all these environments were taught to breathe into com ourselves, so we can be fully present. So I appreciate that you want to come to Tempi and that you're bringing this to the masses our best- and I am committed to being twelve percent happier buggy. It sounds like a book and how to go from ten to twelve years either one of my co host son, we you can whirring America around clay born. When I put my book out at first, He made a fake book jacket. It was called eleven percent
By IRAN, clay born and he held it up on the air, he said: look if you're gonna buy one there's. So what you found the most surprising about this journey of years, well judged all the stuff of learned about what gets in the way and as those include people who assume they came, but the problem you have we ve heard about meditation, I cant do is gonna kick clear my mind. That's that's one of the things we found the other is. I don't have time for this, so I ve been Tottenham people about ways you can slotted in two parts. Your day were actually you do have time I groped for you to better ripe for you get out your car before you go into the house or your office, unity, mobility and also the other thing we pointed out as they don't. You go need thirty minutes for this. He its grave. You have it, but if you only have one minute to men, three minute, five minutes, like that's, that's cool the other thing we ve been Somebody in this is these two obstacles are definitely
issues that you deal with one is this can make me look where people can make farming right, and also in my my force me to lose my edge scorn Tribune woman in place there's a lot of risk of not looking hard core of thing and so that is a really interesting place. It's like what is this constructive, direct officer? What's this constructive, a man in society today and what is or how will you push against against the edge of that? And I was going to ask you about that: how how do you push against the idea that the failure able to exhibit qualities it are traditionally seen, as in that kind of more achieved, the role of the chief that traditional masculine paragon of lakes? dealing us twisted there, so I guess I arrived at a place where I found the benefit of envy
reading some of the more feminine traits, and it doesn't mean feminine as in through fruit. But I think what it says is that I looked at Easter and thought and the Union Yang Scotland traits in feminine traits, and I really think that there's more for social permission. Kind of this fluid approach that one doesn't to give up compassion to become aegis, one doesn't give up one to achieve the other. and so I arrived at the kindest in this intellectual endeavor. I also found that there was a lot of strength in the emotional side in the the other things that make us people, and I think the fluid is, is really important, because it think takes away a lot of their what you're supposed to do, and it just gives this car pathway to authenticity just be
What this situation calls for, do what the individual needs. I think it increases some pathways for us to just be often take and it resonate. Sometimes doesnt resonate other spread to you, I mean, even as a chief have to be asked to qualify and have to be technically sound and physically. Fair, then have to be professional, but the walls and all the tactics, but I think, there's also a different approach to society and really policing has said we have some permission to engaging spoke to the extent that I think those feminine figures Masculine fields, a masculine domains are kind of on the periphery still bit
there that may give us, I guess some some permission to try some new things. Many, if not most, of the best leaders. I've ever had my professional ethics have been. I've been females who interesting and I think it's true. I really applaud you we're doing what you're doing doesnt bringing this to people doesn't make a man ass masculine terms of the male sense. I I really think it strengthens you and I applaud the men. Look in the men you met today in Tempi. Does our view. Masculine figures play sports in college there really incredible warrior type figures: they they have. recognize they dont lose. What makes them a man buying gauging in some of these practices and engaging in the expansion of compassion early remarks,
People were they ve we're talking about is that I want to buy one of the obstacles that I encountered as those trying to raise, as it was contemplating meditation, was that I really in the market for getting in touch with my emotions. It's not interesting to me. But the emotions are there anyway, so they seem clearly or as yet. As they own you and that has been done and I think that actually talking about that with your men and women, it was obvious that that means sense to them. If you go into a very tough situation or you go come, from work after attestation and your options are wash your emotions drink, I'm away or actually see them but they are so that day as it can process. I'm sure it's me the caterer meditate Regrettably, some of your options right and great thing about Mary,
patient. It takes no equipment. You don't need anything that's remarkable. I I'm runner. I run half sinful marathons and mean I need my shoes and nowadays and he made GPS and they need my fuel and I need my stuff, but meditation really offers you. This equipment, free liberation equipment, free practice that
riches your life or that and that literally as the trajectory of real, isn't it? You don't need anything, I mean in every way the area that every moment is complete in its own way, there's nothing that needs to be added on to it that becomes more and more the baseline. That feels that it is available at this there's something inherently satisfying or full about each each moment, and it's only it's only your ideas that something's wrong with it. That are what make it a problem and then so that the paradox there is. How do you have that position and still be motivated to make a difference? You can because having opposition is what creates the efficiency for, creates the clean signal to allow you to act when you need at there's no interference, there's, no, all the interference that comes with like fighting with your life. Fighting with the present moment, triumph Pretendedst. It should be different in some way or try to negotiate with it, and you can drop all that. What's that this is the clear centred awareness that could then
more effectively that's the trajectory. We know that it's an ideal, but it does seem to be play out of people's lives and talk to people trafficking for sure. I don't think I've. I've completely achieve that. It's gonna take your lifetime either. Sir serves a long road. Its entry singer on Friday, night commander and I were sitting down with men and women from the organization, professional staff and sworn that, have not performed well. An aura boards and so we are sitting down talking about the practices and the discipline to kind of engaging the pact, says when you're on the spot, that's a tough You can let you are now you're right, but Yuvan just ten learn. Well, yes and there's: there's create consequence for them when they're sitting there in police. If you want to promote, do you wanna go to just these are a specialty- have taken or award tests
and so what we are talking about more. We engage with them on where some of the practices And then we went into some of their feet. Earth were regarding by GOSH. I looked at this panel member. He wasn't writing anything, so. Does that mean that I wasn't saying what our supposed to say. So we talked about some of the practices of just letting man just passed through, acknowledge it and just letting let that pass through in the discipline that it takes two to say: ok, I'm freaking out this very moment. And let them go, don't try to judge based on what you're seeing in this unfolding experience just taken in saying, I think you and then just proceed. I didn't know how to teach them that, but I did offer some resource for them, so they could engage. Just as you said, it's unfolding, don't try to control it, don't try to take it somewhere, don't judge it just let it go. Let it go through
there is in what you're saying, there's also a really important compassion. Peace to keep in mind, which is that is, as this is a kind of ideal that to aim for that you inevitably in life, some new. Level. Intense he's, gonna come and no doubt- and you have got to give yourself a brave and it happens. You will is it some essential come in? You won't act. Your best you'll be react. if be overwhelmed and then afterwards it's like. Ok, that's just shows you where there is still work to do it and that's just it doesn't matter who you are, there's got to be something some intensity is gonna come up at some point, is gonna potentially be being boring for a bit about recognising that that gives you a lot of compassion, brother Did you everyone's in that everyone's work with different thresholds? But there is a threshold. That's interesting with interesting Richard Richard. When, when we're going through the two one slash two day intensive retreat, I found them much more compassionate with other people than myself. We ve talked
how can you hold yourself a very high standard? Apparently I do I was there with chief Jennifer to Hata of this. The M reveal California Police Department and we are going through the training together so that we could have be champions advisers and advocates for this promising practice, and we just were shaken our heads because without wow we are set kind, compassionate people when it comes to everyone else, we cut ourselves no at all. And so she- and I are kind of colleagues and friends- are really trying to help each other through that, and I don't have you found that that's like the primary, scope for people for some people think some of the obstacles before and that's actually one of them, which is people feel like we had been taken care of
else, it's self indulgent. If I dedicate this time to myself, I will offer that I heard I've no attribution forward, but I heard this that there's play too, and definitions for selfish and and United States in the english language we say selfish selfishness to do for oneself at the deprivation of other, whereas eastern thought has to real definitions. One is the typical north american definition as to do for oneself at the deprivation of others, but they also offer that there's a second one. This is to do for self, so I can be of greater service to others. I have no idea, if that's true- have no idea where it came from, but I've latched onto it as this peace that I take five minutes to sit I chair, and to do this we have greater service fathers, others whether that is acting to safeguard somebody holding
grab a criminal taking some of jail or comforting someone when their suffering. I think the practice helps us do that, for others so when you historically, when you look at the the lives of great change makers like the great sages and saints and there's always a pattern of withdrawn return, is apparent drawing work here in your stuff. You know you're working through this, these things that any we return you can be more effective and it scene is common sense that understanding that those are the two that's the rhythm and yet we have such high it. Where such workers for such doers in the west as a go, go, go Doo, doo Doo ACT at act. We can't we don't take that time too, for the other side. For that too, without withdrawal side of in working in it, but that's what creates the capacity whom you don't. Do it eventually way to see people burn out they freak out day his fall apart so common sense.
there's a that. You really resonates with me because we have this really interesting idea that we were Carter willing. You're education, kids. The days are, a number of days. Kids are in school, in a year or more there's more homework, there's more for them to do, but the achievement hasn't kept up with the the extra effort. This really do that, for me, it's funny people think bear down harder. Sarah, don't even harder baron even harder, but what happens you're just like deepening that feedback loop and everyone's had experienced in her life of like lay down doubling down doubling. Finally, they just give up take couple days off and guess what then, all of a sudden there that much more productive again, but if you just gotta held meetings held onto you, wouldn't have you know of it just doesn't work that way. It's a such an like a simple simplistic understanding and who have how minds and nervous systems work. She think me, the environment.
change for that permission to creep in. I think we have a sabbatical. You give a sabbatical in the city of Tempi. If you ve been fifteen years, you basically you take a month, and I think you're so long time grinding it out and suffering to get that rejuvenation peace, So I think there's not a lot of used. The word permission a lot. I don't think there's a lot of space permission or otherwise for four. People to do that. I know in Tempi one things we ve started in the command staff and executive team is the tap out unplugged time. because most of us, we- we have our phones right next to us in the shower, because where we have to be connected twenty four hours a day because of the very mandate of the profession that were in and to be in command and exact
you're connected all the time, and so we are trying to institute some tap out. Just get away. and do for you and we got this. The others will we'll take it, but that takes a real shared understanding of the benefits and it's not really Sexiest thing: I've, dogs par it's hard for people to do it's, that's tough, When the problem is its tough to get people to disengage and care for themselves, I mean- maybe that's a good problem to have, but Certainly as a problem, the I mean if we are pointing to as its there's so much urge and see there are so many real huge problem. Lasting people think that you need to do is actually Is it actually not away from the problems they hate to cuz? You ear your sense of responsibility and care for. What's going on so strong, you don't think you can. Let go
What is really the that? Was it an epidemic in Tempi when I joined the team because the call was if you're not here every minute of every day or seventy percent her and said shifting their cultures than been really really tough. I think policing and policy in open data all the things that we do and policing a really important and not one that internal sure to give permission for them to take place who starred, as there has to be a basis of trust that she's not just saying that she's actually going to be okay with it. So that's really interesting that you offered that, cheap thanks again for doing this really nice to meet you thanks for what you're doing and bringing this out terrible thanks for being the guru.
Ok, there's another edition of the ten percent happier podcast. If you liked it, please make sure to subscribe rate us, and if you want to suggest topics, we should cover a guess. We should bring in hit me up on Twitter at Dan be Harris. I also want to thank heartily to people who produce with Pakistan really do we much out of work Laurent Efron, Josh Co Hand, Sarah AMOS Andrew Capps Ii Jones and the head of ABC use Digital Dan silver attacking? there's not a person in America who hasn't been impact it in some way by the Corona I was pandemic, but it every community, there are pockets of people who were soon
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