« Ten Percent Happier with Dan Harris

Making it RAIN | Tara Brach

2021-02-17

Today we’re going to talk about a massively useful acronym, which can be used both on the cushion and in your free-range living. The acronym is RAIN -- R-A-I-N -- and rather than explaining it myself, I will leave that to my guest, who has become one of RAIN’s primary proponents.

Tara Brach is an author, therapist, and meditation teacher. She has a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology, she founded the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, and she has written several books, including her latest, which is called Radical Compassion. We first posted this interview in January 2020, shortly after that book came out.

In this conversation, we talk about: What RAIN is and how to apply it in many areas of your life, including relationships; a Buddhist list called The Eight Worldly Winds; and whether most people harbor a suspicion that there's something fundamentally wrong with us.

But we start and end the conversation with a touchy subject. In my first book, I made fun of Tara a little bit, which didn’t go down that well with her, although I didn’t know that until this chat. I really respect how warm and open she was during this tricky discussion. Stay tuned until the very end, when we fully wrap that subject up.

Also: We would appreciate it if you could take a few minutes to help us out by answering a brand-new survey about your experience with this podcast. Our team here cares deeply about you, our listeners, and we are always looking for ways to improve. Please go to https://www.tenpercent.com/survey. Thank you!

Full Shownotes: https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/tara-brach-repost

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
For maybe said this is ten percent happier podcast Dan Harris, hello today. We're gonna talk about a massively useful acronym, which can be deployed both on the meditation. Cushion and in your free range living, the acronym is rain or a. I am rather than trying to explain it myself. I will leave that to my guest today, who has become one of rains. Primary proponents. Tar Brok is an author, therapist and meditation teacher. She has appeared de in clinical psychology. She founded the insight, meditation community of Washington and written a whole bunch of books, including her latest, which is called radical compassion. We first posted this, your view in January, twenty twenty shortly after that book came out in the conversation we talk,
what rain is and how to apply it in many areas of your life, including relationships, we talk about a buddhist list called the eight worldly wins and we talk about whether most people harbour a suspicion that there's something fun fundamentally wrong with us, but start and end with a cup station on a touchy subject. In my first book ten percent happier I poked fun, I thought gently at terror where's out, it didn't go down that well with her, although I didn't really know that until this chat, I really respect how warm and open she was during this. Rather tricky discussion stay tuned until the very end, though when we fully wrap it up one thing before we dive into the episode. We would really appreciate it if you could take just a few minutes to do as a solid by during a brand new survey about your experience with this podcast. We care deeply, as I think you know,
about our listeners were always looking for ways to improve. So please go to ten percent dotcom forward. Slash survey will put a link in the shown us thank you in advance, ok, here we go now with tar Brok nice to see you and you, I think, this is the second time we met the first time we in my memory was backstage at some meditation of and I remember being a little hasn't it cause. I saw you there and I thought I made fun of her a little bit of my book and I didn't How is gonna go between. You gave me a big hug so, Where are we with that? Are you mad at me through Elysium little is actually a really great sperience for me, because you know every of its famous disrepute and
You know, and you made fun of me some, and you also appreciate the thing that most matter to me- watches the practice rain and am I figured you know I can survive this well. I've talked about this a lot on the show, so my apologies to folks have had to hear me hold forth on this too much but I got a three you know, the three sixty review is, if you ve got one and basically, although one might or many of the people in my life anonymously commented on my some weaknesses in one of the weaknesses was being judgmental you I think we're really an early victim of mine on the score in meditation world. And there was a message for me and to cause I'm basically out to wake up and able to prison? things in a way that are going to reach people and ice spected for you. My way was had too much of our own Dewey too sweet
however, and I rose up, there's gonna be a massive people like Dan that that's the way they receive it and I think, as we keep growing, we just get more flexible ways. We represent things, so the room for that. Yes, I agree. I think yeah you have a way of talking about this, that works for hundreds of thousands of people, my way of talking about it or thinking about it or acting it out in the world is very different and that's the of having many folks out there talking about the dark. Anyway. I landowners me to meet you. It's really exciting to me actually and its exciting when the dialogues happen, because, basically were free when we all stretch, say morbid, yeah, the more first of all as a teacher, the more flexibility I have and how I presented
and the more sensitive I am to the different ways. People receive things, the more effective I convey and as a practitioner for instance this morning, us talking to my husband about that right now, I'm reading for the twentieth time I am that by three nor Sarka daughter and it's a book non dual reality about seeing how really counts we're looking at. How am I getting and a fine right in this moment, really seeing past the regulation of self and recognising. Ok, I'm not this particular point nasty, I'm not this body and in recognising a larger sense of being us, and so we are too about that, and I then I just said you know that is untasted when my, minded quiet enough, but if I am cod in anxiety, For me to say: oh I'm, not this anxiety actually is a subtle way of pushing it away and what's more
fortune ass for me to feel the of anxiety and in some way, Ok, this belongs here. This is part of This is a wave in the ocean and to actually feel it and in open into it and not resisting the identification actually dissolves, so the pathway taught in the book, riveted by right this moment. Isn't the pathway at any given moment, and nor will it work for many people when their stuck in a certain way. So I just having that keeping the whole domain of practice fresh. So at any given moment, there is an end to it: way to respond to what arising. Now that actually deepens freedom and not going by road really is, is actually what works in the musty ways. So you talk about implicitly
a change that I've seen you make in my observation of you as a teacher, since the first time I saw you speak until reading your most recent book, so in the teaching of rain, in our eye and which were going to walk through in detail the first time I heard you speak, the n stood for non identification. Now you teach it as nurture which in your last answer. I think I heard you say then nurturing leads to the non identification if you can be cool with ever coming up, and you mentioned anxiety and you ve talked about personally, I with anxiety in your own life. Be cool with anxiety. Fucking, you know be warm in the face of this unwelcome visitor. In your own mind back and ultimately I, if I may, Are you correctly in your correct me if I'm wrong Lee to seeing I have this is just a visitor? Eighty, isn't me that's exactly right and if we bypass the nurturing-
and it's not like every time something comes up. We have to put her hand on her hard and offer all sorts of phrases of self compassion, but there are times that bringing a kindness and a warmth to watch their softens, the resistance in a way that embodied and yet more spacious, and if we skip over it, if we go to Clayton saying oh, this me, I'm not identified it's actually a what kind of dissociation or really embodied. So the more full freedom is be with the wave and realize your openness through the process of being with the wave which, for most of take some quality of kindness, our compassion, worth getting ever ourselves by getting the end of rain before even than the hour, but I just want to. I want to get back to our discussion about I first encounter with you in the way I wrote about it. You used the phrase comes re out of the Buddhist Canon of Fame and disrepute, and I didn't
let go by without letting you talk about. It is just to remind listeners if they ve lost the content, you said when you are reading what I wrote about you you, this thought of. Oh, this is fame. Industry refute. This is part of an your correct, because you're the buddhist teacher here, but in my understanding of Buddhism, they they talk about. This thing called the eight win. And I have always been fascinated by this- because its pain in an loss fame in for me, and I don't know, there's a bunch of them. You know that peace on fame industry, viewed as a really interesting one to me because, we are all pretty condition to want to look good together, proved to be liked. I mean it's so deep in us as social creatures We are ready to connect love with impressive, achieving and so on, and so how we look.
Others really matters, and so for me to be scanning my own psyche and seeing how, when people love I'm teaching and tell me how I'm changing their lives ice either. There's a swelling up in a feeling good and just to note that an hour, or to notice that some people are giving me feedback of using a poem that was incorrect, Billy insensitive to part of the population are teaching something that for a true the ties person actually could make things worse, and then this linking the contracting and to really become awake, free in the midst of that inflating. Deflating is absolute. Censure for the ride. If we're to find any real peace, what I like it describing them is the aid wins and healthcare a broadly naval, many good blown by the wind blowing, arrange also impersonal. The wind isn't you in that there are times in you're, gonna have fame, it can be big fame, like the truly famous person or just sort of a good report.
In your circle of friends and they're gonna be times when you, a bad reputation and it's going back to your thing, not identification and that to meet there's freedom in viewing things. That way, I think it's reason, I often talk, an evolutionary way also is that we takes personally, all the different emotions that are actually wired into our nervous system and have an intelligence. And yet you know we feel fear, and it's my fault, and I feel too much fear, rather than realising we'd be brain Without fear and that every single organism on the planet has a version of it, so it's the same thing with the worldly wins whether to gain or loss. Famer disrepute are feeling fear, anger, they're, not personal, but it takes a lot too who pay attention in a way that gets it? I'm one of the things often do in a workshop is I'll have people
in a circle and raw down three things there. Frida and folded paper. Up and put it in the centre and well mixed the pile around, and then people just pick from the pile and they just read them out loud and everybody just listens as each person's reading and the realisation that comes out of that really is I'm just getting it's not. My fear is that fear that sense of a chestnut so personal, which is why I really feel like we need to do these practices with each other causes. On until we start sharing What's going on that, we realise that what we taking so much as mine. I self is really part of our shared inheritance, some further delay the diving into rain, because you don't, I suspect, is the habit of yours. You say interesting things and then I'm gonna before follow up doing the practices with each
I can imagine, in my you know endless skills of empathy. That's sarcastic for my audience that some people are there listening our thinking. Well, you know I meditated my own. I listen to some amp or I have a practice that I? U nodes, part of my life, but I'm in my living room doing this, I'm not doing it with other people, so does that mean I'm doing wrong No, when I say during the practices in a way I M saying doing the path and and what I mean is I that aid alone many days of the week? Sometimes I meditate with my husband, but it's more. Sharing the unfolding with each other, sharing, what's happening, being vulnerable real with bow see you know what were the end, rights and also the blocks, and that's where it enlarges us
something then this is gonna be again tossing are sequence completely hits tragic and a little bit, but one of the beauties of rain is that more and more people are doing rain partners where they're doing rain together, which I think I just can't. I see a whole other level dimension of a waking up. So I can speak more to them at some point- and I can direct people to the website, but we have people In our training programmes we have people, and our local communities will actually all over the globe. Right now are in pairs, doing rain partners and their different levels of how you can do it and finding that first or keeps them with the practice it's like when you do Something was somebody else, your more accountable, you kind of go through the whole process. Rather than drifting in robbing it and makes a kind of container that's save and friendly and conducive and then sharing pieces it.
Actually, when you start naming out loud something that's happening. You become moral, that it brings or to light of awareness? So that's another piece of work to sing together, I mean the most obvious is: go two classes have small spiritual friends whoop, Sir Clusters, that you meditate wealth but more it do the path, together and do some meditations together, I think into personal meditations or part the gonna be there. Leave of the future, because we spend a whole lot of time, getting more intimate with our own hard and mine, but we don't practice handsomely how we speak with each other, so went on. I can do right now. Am I actually my body and when you speak, am I really like sending putting down my ideas and taking it in and when I say, in my speech, from as much of a place of heart and presently
I can so we don't practice at that much it's hard. I've done some of his work, dyad work where have to stare and the somebody's. I like a death stare, it's hard, the resistant ones, call it a death stare from there to every other, rather than compensation. Yes it's really really hard and yet actually I did find that it somehow reduced this sort of sitting there and then the aforementioned deaths there with some stranger. I should the first time I ever did it was you made me, do it at this event? I went to that. I ended up writing about and I was so mad at you know you without really matter you for making me stare at this nice, young woman who is sitting next to me. I didn't know but over time as I've been in other programmes, we have been forced to do the diet work. It does kind of whittle away a little bit, in my case, to speak for myself inherent awkwardness that I've felt in myself of dealing with other people because
really just main lining wordless connection, that's exactly right, build your tolerance, almost four the discomfort. Yes, that's right, it's affectation and it's really being able to stay present when it an end not, that matter so much that's uncomfortable and then use sensing. Once you relax a little, you can start looking and seeing vulnerable buddy. You can kind of sea the vulnerability you're too busy. In your mind, note too, as you can see, the goodness, which is what so beautiful and see the same ass. You can start sensing than that which is looking out. Through your eyes, is the same basic awareness as mine and that the kind of catapults into another place but just to say, when I talk about rain partners, that's actually not a I gazing process. People do on the phone and they do it online and they do it in all
front ways it's more has to do with and got moving. An inner kind of content. Action to sharing to energy, sharing our wallets dive into how that works in a minute bullets, let's finally walk through rain. As discussed. I had never heard of rain before her. You speak at an event. It here in New York City added really is a profoundly useful schema? I don't know that acronym. Whenever you want to call it, you can use through your history. How did you I think, was Michel Mcdonald who came up with a great future, Macao has never been on the show. She came up in the air and then the sheriff came up with the acronym, probably nineteen, nine early, ninety nine days and I began using it then and love dead, and both for myself and students or a couple of blocks, The problem is that people had run into Anti me about an
one of them was that they settle. What is not. Identification like how do you? How do you not identify, and I had explain that non identifications actually the fruit of what happens. It's like you pay it. Pension in certain ways on purpose and then the fruit. Add. Is this realization of all? I'm not that so not a doing so that motivated me to shift the acronym around a little, but the other piece was that They couldn't really when they were invest, the gating they couldn't they get in touch with fully her body with what was going on and really needed the nurturing to fully embody at an Compassion is the missing piece in earth. If we of awareness is having the two wings of me from their seen clearly, what's here and compassion, and holding it with kindness. We need to bring in that wing of kindness, not just as a
background mood, but in an explicit way, because we are so programmed to actually be turned against ourselves. So does need the explicit so one of the there's, an attachment, therapist Luis Caso Lino and he says that it's not this rival of the fittest it's the survival of the nurtured survival of nurtured, yeah and so learning a pathway to self nurturing, and it doesn't to be. I am saying messages to myself to nurture myself. Her I'm right now touch my heart. It could also be the pathway to nurturing could be by imagined incensing nurturing from some larger source, but finding some pathway to feeling nurtured helps to actually soften the self identity it actually allow. Just relax and open and sense a larger belonging. I feel a little bit like affair.
Here as in interviewer, because we still haven't done the hour of rain with time will not do ok. That, with this is the background to how come I shifted the latter's, but here's how the letters go the r is recognise an that's This means that when you are in some way in reaction and suffering, you pause the notice? Ok, some What's going on it's in it? pension. All ok, something's, you're goin on what's goin on here, so you racket. Eyes what's happening and the aim is allow, which means, rather what we typically do, which was we go into fight fight freeze There were three in some way: try to fix it injured, ignore it judges we do something. It's like a paw. Where we say. Ok, just let this be here right now. I use the, language of yes saying yes to what's right here, not yes, I like it are. Yes, one: it always stay here, but yes,
since the actual reality of the moment. This is truth telling. So, yes, let's let it be here- that's recognising allow that creates enough of a pause for a space to actually deepen attention than we kind of the? U turn and we begin to investigate answered, she have to kind of pause the action and then make the? U turn that just means instead of me, bring into the reactivity you go from that pause to, so what's really happening if recognise, as is the first step. The third step which is in sticking to sing or who is really going on. Let's recognise even more deeply and you imagine, people doing this on the fly like in the mill. A conversation if I start feeling that I am anxious, as I'm talking to you what I do the rain. While I'm maintaining the conversation with you and is also a formal meditation practice, both
and so once you ve kind of God in yourselves, the senses how it works, and it can become very, very like a light rain. I feel, like I'm doing a light rain a lot and it's an informal you shouldn't leave to the day at any moment, just noticing and letting me what's happening, but just since in ok feeling it here, hey behind and then just something a little bit of a shift in you move on. So it can be quick. So now there's a few things the investigating letter always misunderstood and really important to now, and that is its not cognitive. Or at least ninety eight percent- it's not cognitive. Ninety eight percent, it's really getting some advocates you're investigating and bringing the attention to feeling the throw the chair ass, the belly in our house. How is this experience expressed in my body, investigation? Isn't oh my mother's always mean things move because extra. Why happen in her personal possessions investigation? Is that what is
anxiety actually like it's a tightening of my chest. That's right! What is this? How is it shows? right in this moment now? there are some skilful ways they can support them that are investigating, like, if I'm in a really bad mood or sometimes ask myself what am I, Leaving right now and generally I feel. And on believing that I've failed in some way, then I'm fine I'm sure that I'm not ok, I'm not enough for unbelieving somebody else isn't liking me whatever seeing that, bringing that into consciousness actually helps get back and more directly with what's happening, semantically, so that can be used all peace, another part of investigating Eyelike is less I'm feeling anxious this interview- and I pause to say why. How is that anxiety really
expressing even in my face, in effect it where's and just let my face take the tightness of the feeling and let my body kind of when I'm guiding people in workshops are actually at them to sculpt it because we are so up to here with their bodies in their face, like actually left their body and face take the full exe action of the mood there feeling and the Why, then, is that were most people are? Most of us are de dissociated from our bodies- and it takes some in mention all extra kind of fine tune. To really draw the attention fully to what's going on and if there's been trauma, it's really really hard, and so there might just be instead? going into the body there might- trauma. I really encourage people to go right into nurturing tonight and do the sequence of rain to nurture first and
find the pathways to self soothing to safety to get them sympathetic going calm down before they act. We do, though, the real semantic investigation, and that can be for weeks or months. It's not that, well, if there's trauma to go right into investigating, why not because you can return it ass, unless there are sufficient, the lady and resilience and safety going in to where the feelings are can overwhelm, and then you have another round of feeling powerless and unable to deal with, that sue. Gonna take the time to do, their styles of meditation that are more or less kindness the nurturing domain in order to build up sense of resource from this to them do the kind of investigating and unpacking that reigned us now. I think we find ourselves back
in order on end What do we do it, and I did, I think, there's a reason energetically, intellectually, we kind of leading to an early and are now coming back because it is so important. So we started recognise just seen clearly what's happening, a allowing or accepting gap. That's not saying I'm site I feel anxious right now. You think this is the truth. Investigating again, that's not a cognitive process. Most of the time, although, as you describe one, can skilfully use thought to direct you to the direct experience, but It is more of a sort of feeling which actually happening in your body, and then we land at and nurturing and there's a couple of final. Pieces on investigating that actually said the grounds for nor train that are really powerful, that I like to teach about which is there questions you can ask yourself like how does this place
want me to be with their right now. Look I'm feeling hurt, our from feeling, shame or I'm feeling, girl, whatever. How does this place want me You'Re- that how does the anger are we to be. How does the fear? The shame want me to be with it? Our or another way of saying is: what is this place? Need what does it need right now, because Monitoring is really a response to vulnerability and when we investigate and finally, contact were were vulnerable were afraid, whatever it is, if we really feel it there's a natural up willing of tenderness That really is the dynamic of compassion, which is compassion, the response to feeling the vulnerability. So in skating, get you in touch with them vulnerability and those questions help you do that. What is this place really need right now and often I'm People to ask said and put their hand on their hard at the same time, the kind of thing that would have freaked you out a number
years ago, and suddenly I got you like lad so for the part of the population that is drawn to it, you're actually beginning to create a kind of nurturing atmosphere, even when you ask that question and then question will invite forward what needed and fur one woman. I wrote about this in the book, who is really afraid, C, O and organisation and its she'd go into me. We should have brain freeze and she was really qualify, brilliant woman but his temperament. Intimidated her and so I had her doing rain before she'd go in the meeting and she got that anxiety and she felt it felt pension or chest, and then She asked what do you need and the eggs Heidi basically responded. I need you be. Ok, then, I'm here just to let it be yoke,
that I'm here. So she just sent the message. You know it's. Ok, this belongs. It's ok This belongs and theirs real power to the message, this belongs because in the moment that we say This belongs its metaphorically. We become. The ocean that has room for the waves rather than another, fighting a wave, this belongs, creates just space we need it wasn't like the anxiety dissolved. It was more that there is just more space and she wasn't as in the grip that was her and justice, and that message. So there is a lot of different ways that nurturing emerges for some people it does. Clued. You know one hand on the hard or two hands and the hard some people put their hands on their cheeks. For others and can be a combo there's a. Of words that
really are the message that a part of us most needs to hear at that time. For me, at times when I've everything I've tried- and who's, a southerner, Trang hasn't worked. I finally get down this place of please love me. I'm just kind of asking the universe. Please love me, and there is a sense in some way of something larger sum present that is compassionate and tender and washing through so it soon. I get very vulnerable and call out that I can feel it and then I realized at that price, wasn't outside me. It just appeared to be outside me, says part of my own heart, but at the time of being stuck, I needed to all out so sometimes for some people just kind of some powerful way asking for nutrients helps some people a friend, though imagine holding them so theres many many different ways, but the retiring tends to soften ass. We were talking about
in a way that we actually feel enlarged, no longer hooked identified. So foot was anxiety, I'm not the anxious self anymore, I'm kind of that space of tender. From this, it is aware of and kindly towards the anxiety. That is what I call after the rain- and I put that in quotes because will tend to after they do the an just go into whatever's next in their lives, but not notice. The shift that happened and and fur on the path of waking up missing the shifting identity. This is where none I, vacation comes in actually deepened our familiarity with who we really are beyond any go itself so after rain or those moments when we just notice all. Who am I right now? You know it's not
no longer stuck in that small hooked place and there is usually some quality of space Now, sir openness are tenderness, more freedom, so people to pause and rest in that and just really get familiar with it. That's kind of the instructions and in the two hadn tradition as when you touch a moment of freedom, just get familiar with it. So there is a lot there on the end, part I have a bunch of questions, I'm just trying to order them correctly in my head. One of them is so you talk about some of the ways we can operational eyes the nurture part of rain. What presumably like me, who does have an it, does resonate much with me. The idea of putting my hand on my heart, although I have to spring wash em, whose great teachers, but on the show a couple times. Mutual friend she's had me do that before a numbers to admit it did kind of work, but I was in the middle of a deep that was announced seventh day of a matter retreat at that point, so's not is
different from my regular life but general speaking the I think, I'm not alone and feeling like that. I put my hand on my face or my heart or whatever. Doesn't immediately jump out. It's something that I want to do and the asking the universe. Please love me to doesn't land for me is something that I would do so how could I do. And part of rain? So then I would ask you when in your own, Sperience. Have you found that there is something that you pay attention to that warms tenders. You softens you toward myself in any way like in it with any person in any situation with nature with you know, is there anything that when you think of it, just tender ice Yeah my son, our cats, yeah animals generally yeah those types of things. I do to put it in the language used before I do
the vulnerability and then I think the compassion. Another way of saying that will be just the desire to be helpful arises trot. That's right! That's an example of how connected with honour reality brings Europe nurture towards see world around. You know why it happens when you're cut off in some way feeling good about yourself a media of times it you get caught in sight, judge Manned- and you get turned on yourself do at times I would save nice guy occasion when I'm ok. So when you get hooked, what helps you, what have you unhook rain, you know I mean with you taught me ten years I mean I think it become second nature now, but in doing it. The way you taught me low these many years with non identification now I've
I don't have a history of trauma and am aware, so it s not triggering for me to go into not identification instead of nurture, but maybe there's a certain coldness in that too. So little. So let's look at that for a moment, a who is it, Is it your seiners there? Anyone else that when you feel them loving you, you can let it in. Yes definitely, my son, your son when he had left me, it'll annoying the work and their job. In on my desk, my wife, my parents, ok, sir, and held your son five Ok. So when you see your son and you're he's loving you and your letting it in. What's he doing how close to see what's expression ass face? What actually lets you feel, love and actually receive it Casey started around a lot. He gets a mischievous look like you. Can't catch me and then I go catch him. Oh yeah,
so they like, or we in order to tire amount, I make him do it prince in the hallway of her before bed- and so Sometimes will be running up down the hallway together and I'll, see that look up at me with a look of like wow. This is awesome used really fun. So if you even right now just and I can t, your cut, you are accessing at some measure, realising it see him looking up at you, and just so appreciating the fun and liveliness and just the good stuff you into his life and how does it feel very good yeah? So what you would do just two, translate. This is that, if you're feeling really stuck in your feeling down in yourself and you ve done the investigating anyone and nurture you might. Some way, a mad, in a sense. In the background, your son and just said energy, and just let that
add more information to your heart, it's like when we're down or cells were kind of art action is very narrow. It's very fixated on what's wrong and that's like widening the lens to something, that's really good and letting it in suggest, adding a certain dimension of loving kindness, into the mix to soften where you ve hardened against yourself. I have great that I could accept that I've, no blood with that. Here's the thing down is that most of us actually have trouble letting in love. Most of us have very limited number all that we can even begin to let it in and even the people we think we let it and we don't in a very physical, somatic way actually letter body no get washed over it. Just not what we do and yet, when we're really hardened, that's exactly what we need
Issues are in the tissues. They really are. You know, and you know most of us in our path, hunting there were some we might have had great power. But there was some lack of really being seen, are really being unkindest lay tenderly embraced, and we all Need that said to the degree there was a lack there's, a kind of spirit are we parenting that were doing with meditation that actually helps us to process that so we can inhabit our home this and so each we defined where in our life is there even a tangible of what we needed who experience that we can build on because, whatever you practice get stronger. So for me, If I you know tender, times a day. Imagine that washing through of love from some formless being. Are you ten times a day so sir, your sign or your wife, just gonna, letting in there,
something are not and learn about the there's new pathway the ground we have quicker access to it. And in a sense, then, by channeling that look. My son gives me when we're running down the hallway teaching myself through him, how to provide this for me that's exactly right, because we are using a bridge and in some way we're using wherever comes through in the universe as love. We're using that but ultimately it's inside us in everywhere and we're just trying to access, loving kindness and as direct ways we can muster irregular I think, as I think what you said is interesting. I want to see if I can restated the pardon me was thinking well, if I'm using sons- love for me, which is not Is there because I love times he thinks I'm annoying, but in those mom towards really obvious area- is there's a lot of love in the room were on our way. Right now I was thinking
part of losing all that's external. That's not me having love for myself, but you are, I think, saying what love is just sort of a force in the universe. However, you get it into Your tissues is fine ride and there's no self loving herself, really I mean it's we're just accessing love and it appears to come through our minds? I get that is your son or yourself or I might call d the in our beloved of the universe, and it's all just those are ideas thing, we know is that there is some tenderness, that's vast that's really, my senses, the source of who we are that were coming home to and so use whatever pathway use, because you're not gonna, get hooked on images of your son. In fact, the more you as you use that you'll find yourself receptive to love many sources- and you know here- I do something else totally get too
She would be in. I walk in the mornings and often pause and a tree and say we are friends are disuse the phrase We are friends and in the reality of an affinity with I just the over story, which was fantastic. It's a Pulitzer prize winner about treason, connected nest, but and I do it now with people? I do you know a clerk at the super I guess I'll just mentally say we are friends and of a sudden the real quality of are, inter being comes more evident, so I figured use whatever we can to. When ourselves to something. That's always an already here in our strategy and our tightness. We don't notice common unquestioned comment is accord, is coming to my from a previous guest on the show
even if we ve heard her interview yet, but this person was telling me about something that a teacher said to her when she was complaining about how cheesy, loving kindness practices in the teacher said. Well, if you can't get comfortable genus, you can't be free tat? I think, is really for me that really lands the question As you said, something like love is the. Source of who we really are, what does that mean? I knew that wouldn't go by providing grandchildren. Well, my is that when I'm not caught up hang about a shelf when I'm not inside thoughts about itself. There's a changing flow of experiences. That's happening and the sense of what it's all happening in is an awareness that is tender. Another word Its awareness, it's pure awareness, but when that
and I use the ocean waves metaphor when ocean perceives particular waves. The natural response is tenderness, so that when I'm free from self occupation, there is a natural love compassion towards whatever is experienced that's what I mean by the sources went when we're not identified enough best way, there's a pure awareness that naturally responds with love. Much more of my conversation with tar right after this.
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the mind no- and I wouldn't go out in that way, because it really an experiential half an hour we can talk about is we are talking about now like what is absolute Ruth and they're, not gonna, be science or research. It's gonna point too. You know, what's the very nature of our beings, I can point to the programme philosophy that under I most spiritual and Mr Collins contemplative practices. And two or oneness that it's not like the mind is in the body it's like. There is an awareness that is the source of all creation, but because the perennial flow, He says that doesn't mean it proved by science, but even the book I said that I want to say much- a things don't take face value and come and see for yourself exactly a He Pacifica. It really just to keep Turning the attention to what's right here in the present moment and to watch experiencing watch here in the present moment and to have
tension to do with kindness makes it a lot easier. So, for me I get that there is this awareness. That's beneath all! Oh you know it's not that kind of Spatial positioning makes any sense, but I know I'm having thoughts and most of them are self centered, but that if I did below that level of discourse. Seventy there's this pure away. Fairness of whatever I can hear the sound of my voice. When I can see you involuntary early right, there's this awareness that just under goods whatever happening in my mind, so I get that that. That awareness is naturally tender, I get a little lost on. My ex We insist that when I'm not caught in feed and grasping. Neither would not identify the cell there when awareness encounter something in,
and counter the natural response is a sense of we in a sense of care connectivity exactly it's everything's connected yeah And Anderson, if you look at the development of the species, if you look at human evolution. You know our brains are designed to perceive separation were designed to expire and to self in here and a world out there in the primal mood of the separate self is fear a minute fight flight. These comes out of that, and so for millions of years, wherein they small groups and perceived other out there. You know any group that wasn't part of her in group was you know the enemy and bad indifferent, and not as human as us and in group there was going sense of collaboration, because that's one of our defining features that not for millions of years, it's only been the last ten or twenty
thousand years that we ve exe and beyond can relationships and felt a sense of we, but that's our trajectory, so this is actually what gives me hope, is that an eye scoops alot, I say: do you believe that businesses evolving cause, I'm curious to see what people believe that I feel like the consciousness in our species and is evolving from a sense of separate, I completely self centred and reacting out of them. The fears to us. Heads of we that not only is collaborative that actually care like you are part of me. I care about you not cause you're over there, but you're part of my heart, part of the same essence, and I think that the direction we're going is a species and meditation facilitates it big meditation, awakens the parts of the brain that need to be integrated and awake, so it moves
from kind of our Limburg hygiene. Place were really and react seventy two where we can and go matter to what's happening, become mind love it and respond with compassion and there are now is research that shows that meditation does wake up, integrate our brain in that way, and I That gives me hope. I'm looking out now today, down where we are in the news like it's been so disturbing what's going on in our world and You can see around the world how much the here and now, Linda hijacks happening means not just the United States with you know tendency towards you, no fear right wing and you know that a thing? It's in a many countries around the world now and when humans don't
their fears when they run by them. We become incredibly dangerous and so the only way out of tribalism really is training our hearts and minds is the way out and I feel like we're doing as individuals. We can kind of sense that that we expand and become more able to care about each other and I feel like we need these kind of train was brought into our group directions and they already are the citizen. I mean whether its truth, reconciliation are arrested of justice. Kind of activities are inside, like or whatever there's all sorts of group modes. But to me that's the whole of his chair Jeanne Consciousness that way and that's what these practices do. Related to the question. I asked you before about your love being the source of all of whom we are you, a lot in the book about Buddha Nature
that we are inherently. Awakened and loving, but its obscured by the ego. The sense of self greed and aversion and all the stuff we also of all foreign I have an instinct that that's true just based on my own personal experience, but I dont know if there is any evidence as far as I know, there are at least two ways to think about this problem: more there's the Buddha Nature argument which again I dont know. If there's any of, you would know that it is better that make us you're a trained not only in the buddhist tradition, but an psychotherapy and then there's the two wars idea that we have a wolf of greed in Haiti. And wherever wolf of sort of compassion and generosity in the world. Winds in that fight? Is the one you feed? Give you a sense that you and train up the better angels of your nature, take him to the gym, as it were then
also then the christian view of original sin that were actually now. Fundamentally, that seems to be the spectrum you know either Fundamentally good too. It's a mix and it's what you train to fundamentally bad and we can only get to the good part by accessing God. So. How do you know where you are on that spectrum, but listen? What's your sense of where the evidence points its kind Were you asked before it comes back to come in? see for yourself that it wouldn't matter what belief system I have and that I'm not as interested in talking to I believe some of it. What is more primary is love more primary. I don't think that's as much as sang look, we ve had tastes of I'm more more who we want to be everybody. Has we know what it's like when were caught and act in ways that we, we grab and we know what it's like when we He'll generous are
kindly are created for joy fault. We just now and it's what we feel more at home with being when were more, who we want to be and there are ways of paying attention that can cultivate that some old lay much more pragmatic. We could get off the air, and I could talk about. The cosmetology that I know That is useful. I mean my begging, hurry Dan is. How do we wake up carrying more in our world in trouble. How do we wake up? during a smaller there's, carrying and a sense of, it's all of us, an hour or respond to that wake up in the morning carrier, wake up the sense of carrying its inherent every human being, wake up this of caring in all of us yeah. How do we expect that and how do we widen the circles of our caring because, as Einstein said, its general pretty limited to those in our tribe, and that feels like the most common, on question for all all of us and its
I'm here you correctly, you can have a metaphysical debate about what are we like our core do even have a core. Is there a Buddha nature? Are there to wolves? Is their original sin yeah fine. We can get into that or you can ask yourself a very simple question: what feels better when you're a jerk born you're, not what feels more true or at home. Where do you feel most at home? Would you want to do to be and link being cut urged by the trajectory revolution I mean I, I loved reading sapiens and I love reading evolutionary psychology because does show that we are not quite as much Controlled by our olympic system, we have more choice: there is less violence in the world and where we see it, it's very gripping and rainfall, and so how do we keep waken up from that? What things you also talk about in your book is. I think this is a quote the most challenging blockers for us is the belief that there
something inherently wrong with ourselves. After my Sixty I struggle the lot with the sense that I'm inherently selfish. I know you ve talked about, and I think this is a phrase you used the trance of worthiness. So how universal do you think His eye was caught in this thinking of I shall uniquely selfish witches, total navel gazing getting caught in the south how universal do think this suspicion that there is something fundamentally wrong with us is, and how do we deal with it? I think its super pervasive, I'm not an x, bird on cross cultural comparisons, but every one that I have worked with him I'm doing teacher training, people from fifty different countries and so on. Everybody I've worked with has That's an element of what people struggle is sums some sense of I'm, not ok. Does it take
Any flavors like I'm, inherently a bad person or I'm inherently sort of not up to the job or their funding, permutations of yes absolutely summits like I'm fundamentally flawed and its decision sting and shameful to get those kind of twist to dismantle should in a shame for others. It's like that. Chronic, never enough and the striving and the frustration, but it's not as deep a twist in the psyche, and I think that partly you know parenting. You know it all comes from whether we have a basic centre, trust them belonging early on, and so our culture right off the. That is a set up for not belonging because to be parted, Anything you have to meet these standards that are imposed by the culture, including have us kind of intelligence. I mean we were a certain kind of intelligence, and we have a huge percentage of our kids go through school and they don't have that kind of intelligence and they come
feeling like there stood then and there is really an that's that really saddens me well just one level than we have the kind of body a woman supposed to have, or we have you know that just basically looks are we have the most serious level of messaging from the culture which is Greece is, unlike this grouping of people, is inferior and that message get sent through every institution to african American that you are less than, and that creates a huge, huge grip of something's wrong with me, So it's like tiny, Mars and said you know to be american means being white. Everyone else has to hyphen eight, so all our non dominant populations on some level are getting the message, slam. So we get message just through the culture we get messages through. Our our parents in this way in order for me to love and respect you
come out of that keeping a self that we hope will get as much love and factors we can, but in a process, underneath feeling the who I really am it's not ok and for Many of us selfishness is the big one, I'm that that, for me, the big one really that I thought it was. I had a sense of. Was it a little bit more of a male thing now well, they were all and Rogers and our own ways bed now for me, it's the self centered ass? It has been a divine and because it's you don't come office also Thank you that really, I was afraid of those measures, but I've got a manner of tenderness, swelling my credibility right now, but that had the opposite effect, so I'm so interest in that you have some fundamental suspicion that, like you're, incurable e, selfish or self centered. Well, I guess I do. I knew that this eager.
By nature, is selfish. I mean ego nature is concerned with ego. So what I've come to pass Where is that you go? It's not the x who says identity of what I am, and so, if I can hold it with, homer unkindness, I'm ok right I say what I just said took decades I got onto the spiritual path- and I was joined containing yoga ashram, and you know it. Be the most vigorous yoga around, and you know- and I was one of these very vain yogi cause back then I was super flexible and I was kind of like teeth but showing it off and United Voice I was up. I myself and of course I have a dream: disease that now I cant do yoga at all, because I'm my connective tissue. Is to lose, so it kind of swung on me, which is really interesting because I was so identify with being good at it. But then I got identified finger at other things. You know that
all along. I started realizing how much underneath. I felt sure I'm at my sense of importance or pride or self centeredness or whatever it was, and that's what got me to write. Radical acceptance was the sense of being. Doc in itself. I didn't like and radical acceptance, basically We see how was a trance that most anybody there. Is identify with their self doesn't, their self. Might sometimes be honoured, played itself importance thing, but underneath that there's doubting shame so if we have an identity with self, we dont like that self and a part of this Rachel PATH is seeing that trance of liking ourselves, and with was dumb and compassion, opening to something larger, transcending the cell
real transcending the identity, but the way it happens is by bringing kindness to the very feelings of shame. Are self dislike, were back at em we're back again, yeah wicket. That's why for me, Nicole compassion, the book it just feels so central than any transformation we make requires cultivate. A quality of self kindness just to clarify for You wrote ragged acceptance many years ago and the new book as radical compassion. I just want to make your thank you as you get em. Both I've set clear. One was first her phraseology that came to mind when talking about this on phraseology which you may not like. Given our differences, in terms of getting stuck. In your own stuff and how can I have so many deleterious effects internally and then externally. The way having thinking about in my head is view is so much better when you pull your,
out of you, you know TAT s the way I think of it. Then I love that. I love that, because the other side of it is when were turned on ourselves. It feels horrible in the way that I end up working my way out of it is the example. I got sick in my early fifties for about six year. And it was a spiral down and I went from being athlete and in a very vigorous too you know really not knowing There was a way out, but I lost mobility. I much much better. What was it can you say did they had to do the connective tissue disorder were, but I just went into a spiral of pain and fatigue, and just it just yeah I just got worse and worse. So I'm telling you this because I would go through all these. I would feel
measurable, but then I'd get down on myself for being a bad patient. Like you know, here I am irritable and I'm you know impatient and just being done I myself for the way I was dealing with illness. Knowed often go into, What do I do to create this? So I turned on myself and the West. Practicing down. Was I see myself caught in a kind of name, is recognised and allow ok trance of unworthiness. Shame, and I do sedated and I'd feel just how painful it was too now be physically miserable but to be turned on myself. It. They called the second arrow you know, the first arrows that I was feeling miserable the second, his eyes, blaming myself for it and when could get really in touch with how many moments I have some heard from being down and myself and just like think of the landscape of yours. I can think of how many moments, instead of
preceding somebody out, Sir, the mystery of the night sky or whatever it is. There's been that self org. Did down on cell feeling it's a real deprivation of life moments, and so, when I could get in that honest recognition of the suffering of being down on myself? That's when I start getting tender That's when I could then say, I'm sorry, I care about this offering in some way and that would yet as soon as I could really directly contact the vulnerability and offer kindness no longer living inside that bad shelf, but is there Like us get saw it all thing of offering, you said this before you yourself can offer kindness to a cell force You said something along those lines has you why I am saying I'm sorry to myself in a way what's happening,
is investigated and there's contact with the suffering so awareness is contacting suffering and awareness and new kind of get enlarge. When you can see something directly, that's the whole power mindfulness is once you recognize that you're no longer as identify with it, arresting and a larger awareness, and went awareness directly sees the suffering as suffering well, I deserve this are well you have it worse, but ouch this hurts when awareness get said then there's a tenderness that emerges and then and that tenors expressed and even just use the vehicle of words all I care about the suffering. The eye is really coming from a larger place. It's almost like awareness is offering care, and I often think. Ultimately, when I'm meditating one of the way, kind of wake myself up is the same like I'm meditating awareness.
This meditating. Can. An awareness is speaking right now. This is experiencing this moment, but it feels like self for a while, I'm in the vernacular, we say I'm offering myself kindness, but by that moment the eye is really rushing in a larger space of awareness. This is equality says it if its confusing to you as a listener. It SAM. It's just one of these things, it becomes clearer, you're trying to add words onto an experience that is very hard to describe in words, and so you just that kind of practice over time and you get start getting tastes of the type of thing you're describing that's right of not thing you're describe Well. What it is is that there is a sage that was once every people bring em their troubles and he would swear them. To secrecy and say: look. I have just one question? And this question is What are you unwilling to feel
and when we investigate and actually start to touch We are unwilling to feel touch into that vulnerability directly contacting we ve been pulling away from actually freezes up its when the resistance has gone. The demons are gone so There is more space and it actually. Comes more natural to offer care from that space. She can actually feel it. So it's getting me thinking about part of your book has to do with fear. You write about fear and bringing rain to fear in that left out at me, because I've had pack attacks famous layer infamously had one on television, but now I get them in elevators, seven walking Addis flights of stairs. Like it. I had won a bad one about six months ago and a kind of mess me up and I was being a book recently by guy named bury Mcdonough? It's called the dare response. He's got his own. Dare is his right.
And I don't want to be able to reproduce, but part of here I think they are is run toward it and I've been practising this in elevators his attitude and I think it might be a little bit at an open, angle from nurture, but his attitude with panic is saved yourself, bring it on. Do your work. I'm an account the ten and see how he's gonna be a set of sensations? You have a hundred percent track record of surviving panic attack so invited in and turn the hunter panic fear into the hunted. I have found that to be in my earlier explorations really interesting, me. How goes for your cause, I'm it fits in with I mean a lot of desensitization, modalities are just like that you turned towards it usually do gradually in ratcheted it up, but it's like enough.
Dogs running out you whistle for it. You know it's amazing targets like in some way your reversing air conditioning and the conditioning has locked into place the panic, but it all picks up on. Yes, what you just said also picks up on some things. You ve been saying throughout the course of this interview, which is its like. This unwillingness. I've had to accept the discomfort, yes, the fear of the fear, yes and re framing and, as it's gonna be a set of physical sensations that youth here to form an unwilling to fully experience. But if you, not only have a willingness to experience it but you're inviting it an saying, come on. Let's do this if I'm gonna have pack attack on me, just feel it instead of feeling the tiniest little bit of it, and then it spiralling out of concern. From there, because I'm just unwilling I literally the other day, I was, and I got stuck in an elevator in in my own building and I M not a straw person you ve met me. I'm not big. I was able to tell
open the doors, because I was that scared but what? If I had just said there it will. We feel this. It would have made it an entirely different, but I guess my point and bring all this up was. He is that too aggressive attitude the come on, bring it on turning the hunter and the hunted rather than nurturing. First, I don't think them is either are, and it's really case by case for some people that's eggs actually which needed in some way to just fully in here but your confidence and courage and just go out. It is actually the energy that can undo the old conditioning for another person, led to a panic attack that would increase the feeling of trauma so and for many people, all surrounding it with nurture and nurture again can be, something the matter
such in luck? You ve done it before you can do it. You ve got to you know it's the message: the our heart and my needs in the moment, and I think of the sea thing with loving kindness that there's not a loving kindness practice. It's what away, we pay attention that in some way way However, hard opens our hard softens are hard, gives us courage. So free It sounds like a could be a real match yet more desperate, this area so everything in your book is again this only phraseology I wouldn't use, but nonetheless evil to me, which is discovering deepest longing? He talk about that yeah, One of the stories I tell on theirs of palliative caregiver, who reported that the greatest rather the dying was I didn't, live true to myself and in a way? That's not just the dying. I mean it's like, I think,
I run into a lot of people and, in some level, are disappointed in their lives. They feel like theirs, we, the server surges, batting away at the problems, but they're not arriving and really living do they know they can be so that after on really discuss you're too longing is that question kind of like if you are at the end of your life, Looking back, you know what would really most matter what would most matter today what we most matter with you, and I speaking here together- like really what would most matter and so we get aligned with what we care about and not hijacked by. The habit of kind of chasing after a media. Gratification are defending, ourselves are avoiding what we're afraid of. So it's a very powerfully incur in the buddhist tradition acting with aspiration connecting with what
your heart, really longs for his really what energizes on the path, it's, what will have us stay was meditating because will remember, it's not a discipline, that's punishing or something it's, because we love waking up. We love truth. Will this fast nation with. What's real, I love love. You know it's like remembering that keeps so that our days are really aligned in a meaningful way there, section in the book about reign in relationships. How does that work. In the same way that rain helps us face process and wake up through our own fears are hurt or whatever cause. That's what it's really doing. It's it's Let us be with the stuff. We don't want to be aware that in a way so that we can find out cover a larger sense of our own presents stuff comes up between
people that needs the same attention so, for instance, with my husband with Jonathan who is sitting in the loose happens to be listening right now in the way we have Certain dynamics are patterns that will replay were we get stuck and them of our practices will do the time out. Official time out where we do rain inwardly in our own way. Where would you know feel were caught and the belief that are going on breathe with Ed bring care to edit sent interests? hold it ourselves, so that we're not speaking out of a stock place and then when we start naming what going on. For us. It's without much blame the other person can hold it. There more of a container for us to do it together, before doing rain. Together, we may both BC together working inwardly and then we can exchange, What's going on and away where we have
not more resources, we ever a kind of a joke which is the first person who roll reverse wins, What that means is that can really see it through the other person's eyes. The Conseil I get. Why that hurt you and I got while- and I said it with that- judgmental tone that would have made you pull back and not wanna do what I do you know so it brain empathy and compassion to doing together. Phillip, we could do a separate interview on this subject, which reminds me you should come back more often ah that's. Why? Because I am a passionate about what we can do in relationships and we started much earlier talking about rain partners and again this comes as to the state of the world dan- is that I shall I go long as we're living from fear, defence, organic bon hurting each other as individuals and globally and learning do these kind of practices with each other creates us?
and of we that that then ripples out and so rain partners is really powerful for that, because in you can start moving through the world and on one of my favorite lines. This is from this house is a civil rights activist, older woman icon and She has this phrase: where does it hurt issue to wait. America, the White America that's most cod in the grip of, racism and asking where I've heard and she senses a kind of a sense of meaninglessness and spiritual pain and certain segments. White America, but moving through our lives and being able to see somebody who's in some way just see. Where does it hurt and metaphors, I love the most is, if you imagine walking through the woods and seeing a dog whose, by a train you the path the dog and the dog lurches you you know like
bared and so on, and then you know you an angry at the dog, but then you notice that the dogs pause in a trap everything shifts and you'd necessarily go really near the darkest might be dangerous, but your heart, a shift. Cause. You see that the dog suffering, if we and learn to move to the world and when somebody acts in ways we don't like. Instead of luck into our judgment, fight play. Freeze, in some way. I ask: where does it hurt? The world would be a different place really word from you, one final thing. I realized I've actually had some anxiety during this interview. I don't and that kind of landed on me midway through why it was, and I think it was that you described that I hurt your feelings and that made me feel bad. So I want to apologize for that.
Well, so I want to slow down here because who mostly I feel touched- and I want to say thank you for your comment on the shelf- No it's there's something beautiful about like I wasn't even gonna go there. I wasn't gonna, be up the past and the fag, you did is modeling really what we ve been talking about, which is to go to. Go into the elevator, our go towards the dog. That looks danger. See you went right towards where was most vulnerable but in so doing you created more connection. So thank you is the beginning of an ongoing relationship oil for it. Thank you final thing. Before I let you go, I want a we force all of our guests to shamelessly plug many yes, don't like doing this, and I sense you're, probably one of those people but cages list the books you ve written, including the new one and give us the name of your podcast
and your website where we can learn more about. You just said that we have it all. I told you I was I. My selfish self important self, so I'm not actually minding at all now. In fact, I loved invite everybody to tar brok, dot com and my website and I have a weekly podcast- that give a talk Wednesday night in Washington DC area, and you can down? from my websites are, you can go and Facebook and downstream and just become part of life stream become part of the week we event. So that's one thing: the books are radical acceptance, which is two thousand and three which is really had a really shit, massive unworthiness and wake up out of that true refuge, which was to theirs, thirteen, which is when I got really sick, and how do you find a way to face when life is most difficult and find he's enjoying freedom and the Mets, and then,
recently radical compassion, justice. Weeks ago which is really learning to love ourselves and each other into healing, and it's really for the rippling. For our world. So those are the primary things to plug right now, we'll put links to all this in the shone out. So if you didn't have a pan out, don't worry you right there on your phone. Thank you again for doing this. Where a totally mine to thank you. Thank you again to tar of conversation was well worth repeating, leave before I let you go, though a quick announcement. We are on the look out to hire a senior meditation producer to work on courses and other content for the ten percent happier app This is a great opportunity. If you're really the Dharuma yourselves and experience with curriculum design and content production. If you want to check it, If we want to share this with some of you know, who think might be a good fit go to ten percent dotcom, slash jobs, of course
link will be in the show notes this show by the way, is made by Samuel Johnson DJ. Mere Maria were challenging point audio engineering by ultraviolet audio- and it's always a big thank you to my guys we see no Ryan Kessler Josh CO hand. Was you on Friday for a bonus during the statement NEWS too much looking down at night. He was a little kid air paddy you feel bad about, but by the earth were from basket studios and ABC Audio, listen to in plain sight. Ladybird Johnson, a new part, asked about the power of a political partnership that somehow, it doesn't show up. In the many many accounts of Lyndon Johnson presidency, through lady birds, own audio diaries and available now I'm Spotify or your favorite podcast up.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-10.