Real people, real interviews. I have to say that I attach strenuously tee a hard hitting questions. What do you think about them and if you like it taking you to the cutting edge of terms, will last year is one of the worst movies ever made, and it was very clear that Ryan Johnson doesn't like Storm Kyle poles no punches asking how you're evil to sleep at night he's brings own shattering common sense from the top row defining level. Do you. This is the Babylon Bee Interview Show Bishop Robber Baron everybody scaring cause. They don't know what to do and were there and to interview this guy therein. Kyle has a rhyme because he wants to keep going with our bishop rubber band rat

drives them a clearing away. You people be staring at you, two Aaron, so visible. covered. Baron is Asia. And here he has a website called word on fire dot org, which has become a hub for ass, looking christian engagement with the culture, He shared dialogues with Doktor, Jordan, Pearson Dave, Reuben Bench appear William Lean, Craig and all kinds of people wow. I know that a lot of Youtube videos, but this is the best one this one here, are you complementing our own Pont Ganz Youtube thing on the very good you talked about. Yesterday we talked about people they do not? We talked about Marxism. He talked about much canst analysed, woke, stuff, well, We talked about whether you can be pro abortion and a Catholic, spoiler. Spoiler alert no

cool with that actually, I don't think he's a now. I think he said You got me out of here. You can see what he said. You can vote for governing yeah he's early, but he was easier, most concise, quick answer. Guy, like this crazy, like he's one this guy's, where you could come up to and be like papayas, and then he would just go like The history of the papaya began ass, a really is related to cultural, Marxism and the new year. give a really smart answer to a really dumb question and that's great for us. Could we ask a lot of dung questions and concise? That's the thing you can come back to that those maize how quickly you said so much you and it's not. The descent we're shortness here knows that he packed so much easier to answer some say: he's smart, yet slinky, smart Master, a way, we ve been really excited to have Bishop Baron on we ve been into Spain this wrong, and here it is Bishop robber. Baron join us

you baron thanks for coming on it's great to have. You might Our thanks for every goes here. This is also modest. In feels like a sit com to Protestants, send a Catholic and we are now well in the office. We have three four well Hence our many biogas are obviously inevitably have settled in Catholic here, and the guy can acknowledge the background is our Conklin Catholic Patty. Just one catholic other group. So where do we begin all my cat? friends. You like a Rock star Missouri. So I guess that's my question. I mean you're here. John, you did you kill in it, and here this thing, Bishop guy, like go with white collar thing, everything suppressor domain you reach, and all these people we I'll tell you a story. about the collar. When I first started back in my twenty over seven right after you, too came into being, we got on and we had this guy. Who is

I consulted islands. I started with the collar and a bookshelf behind me and he said Father we might recognition, lose the collar, get rid of the bookshelf, Jesse we're casual close and I'm not making this up. He said it might be good if you like, came in on escape board or something so happily I rejected that and we stayed pretty much all these years with the collar and the bend the bookshelf, but the other day prove something inasmuch as I grew up in the time when pandering to young people with all the rage, you know- and I think crazy, aimed at young people respond. When you are passionate about something and you're smart about it, I think they respond to it. So I'm glad I rejected the of consultants, canny skateboard now bringing the ideas special assistant, yeah will now like just

not like a priest in Heaven books behind you is the new rebellion. I mean right nowadays. Now that makes you countering chromium looks for something so well I mean it does I feel like a crazy time. Culturally, and I know a lot of us are kind of wondering what too make of things? And you ve? You talk a lot about culture. You talk a lot about how Christians can engage culture. what kind of things we can do so I mean, I guess that's that's a broad question, but as a starting point like how do you see? Where do you see Christians in this current cultural collar culture war? You just want to call it a discussion around the culture, but what? What? What? What some starting points for how we can engage culture yeah me fruitful, icing christians at their best recrossed. The two thousand years have always engage the culture creatively doesn't mean you cave into it. We ve always critics of the culture, because you have to resist you know what's antipathetic to the gospel, but

best, people from origin and John Chris System through Thomas Aquinas, and everybody else have engaged the culture creatively and they looked at You know philosophy of the time it cetera. So I think it's the same situation today with their lot of things we have to resist. I've increases should stand up for a lot of elements that culture, but then we should also engaged positively when we can so that's been sort of my inner modus operandi I think really, maybe the most important thing right now. We, the culture of self invention, so the for position I say of most young people today is I invent myself. I make my values. I make up my truth. I define who I am and then is pathetic to the gospel witches analyses being objective. There's something actively true and morally right, etc, and the church has to keep proclaiming that because desk,

actually liberates us, and this, this philosophy of self invention is is debilitating, and I it I find people falling into depression all the time over that if I'm gonna make up this project as I go along, I'm gonna help us So I see we gotta keep saying your life is not about you. It's not your little project, it's it's gods, project and you're part of the story that is so much more interesting than whatever you're gonna come up with you know, so I think Christians. This is across denominational lines. We should make common cause in announcing that to the cultures. health invention. So that's where I really stand athwart the culture, even as I am very happy to engage positively to how even start to convey that message to this culture that self invention is bad because that is the analysis held two so firmly. Yes, you didn't feel a point out. No, I agree.

I in our treaty back to people like nature, the nineteenth century, come up to jump also of the Twentyth century, Michel Foucault in more recent years, That would serve high level philosophical musing at one time now it is in all our Eddie when you start saying, but there in the minds of young people, they don't know the source, they can't name the sources, but that philosophy for sure you're would start says existence proceeds. Essence, that's his definition of existential isn't. That means my freedom comes first and then I decide who I am what then, The default position of every high school killer, America seems to me there. All existential is in that way, or you know of meat. You see there are no objective values. Just u assert your will to power. That's also, I think the standard position of most young people today, I think what you do. Is you show how compelling and beautiful the Christian out

Currently it is in this whole self. Invention thing leaves you in this sort of vacuum era, this echo chamber nor I'm inventing my values, I'm affirming myself, it ll. Actually, when this really dull space and Christianity is like an adventure, if you know it's like eyes in which one of you like Chesterton Cage, asked Bilbil most, but mostly he's gotta, show due to his lower back. That's exactly would trust your didn't saw over a hundred years ago was. He saw the beginnings of us and he said you gonna knock holes in the in your skull to lead in some light, because he saw that this rationalism of his own time was an echo chamber. Well, that's right, self invention culture is today. I think so, I'm with Chechnya Knox, I'm not some holes in your skull and what, in some white you're asking earlier? What might my religion is? It might be just geeky gesture Tony, and we did that in common Mary. I discovered him

a long time ago I love Chesterton, will want one of the problems. That, though, is I think cushions tend to be very reactionary in the space like we don't we look at bad ideas or bad. You know liberal art and we That's terrible and then that's our whole reduced get outraged about it. Neither it you look, it could things of the past, like talking or even Chesterton, that we're right that they were writing beautiful fiction that made a positive case for goodness and truth and beauty, and you don't see it I don't know why that is so. If you have an answer, but I mean you, don't see that as much anymore today. Aren't you do know some good examples of of Catholics, Christians who have done that kind of thing. No, I figure raid and yeah talking a company and Chesterton and Louis their own way. They were trying to do that. What am I strategies and I've started with this a long time ago, and you too was too low, it, films, especially their out. There could films of such an impact on people and say: look

there are a lot of religious themes that are implicitly in these movies and I would prefer to bring that out so my approach, what tentative more positive. They say: ok, what in the culture is redolent of Christianity. Now, in other ways I know that we have to say to certain elements in the culture, but I've tended to say will it call affirmative orthodoxy, like kind of say, what's positive and what's the yes that we can find, even in the culture, so yeah I believe in them. ok lines you driveways interested in you know cause. I grew up in the air young christian Is this true lines like? Oh, it's all right. If you watch it or you know the one thing I am thy love, Catholics, as you guys have like a really you you're, very methodical and plant thought out and all of you, Rules is the right way to put it, but so what kind of guidelines do you have for content that you take in when you are looking at all this cultural stuff? Well,

depends on the person's age and experience. I'm tell a kid to go, see Cohen Brothers movie, but I hope that An adult, mature, intelligent Catholic, should go to a cone brothers movie in fine all sorts of marvellous things. I mean. What am I favour movies grant Reno of committees? What I mean that the most common politically incorrect figured you can imagine, but there is no better presentation, the Christ figure, seems to be the last twenty five years of cinema. I wouldn't say to us: you know parents with the young kids. I bring the kids to grant arena, but I wasn't sure mature adult intelligent Christians to go to a movie. Like that, I used to tell my students. I was a professor for a long time, the seminary as it we eventually eyes can't afford to be pure panicle when it comes to the culture, its second serve us. You know we have to be able to go into it in

and find the elements of truth and so on, and I used to tell them I'd say you know. Jesus undoubtedly heard the aromatic version of the F word me that he would have heard whatever the most have seen. My point was you can't be so fussy that only yesterday they use the F word in a movie. So I you know, as a Christian, I can't watch it within you're not going to have taken much of Chaucer. You won't taken a lot of Shakespeare. You won't taken Flannery Oconnor in the twentyth century. You won't taken the Kohen brothers and that's a tragedy. You know, so I don't bring young kids to it, of course, but I think we ve got to engage it intelligently, you and me, the watch a mile and there'll, be a real tragedy. I actually did see nobody and here's the thing to you would not read the Bible so either people over the years. Obviously, in our view, a movie like you know, Scorsese the departed. Oracle and brothers are something enough.

How could you be going to this movie? That features you know fulfilling the blank? Always bad things and my standard responses. Have you read the Bible recently, the Bible that in it the rape and insistent masturbation and genocide- and I mean come on it- that its life and and God is revealing himself precisely in over. You know mock and mess of the human condition. So we can't afford me that puritanical afore biblical people come on up, Despite the question I am, I heard you talking about game of thrones and went to interviews that so maybe girl, because guess having it like cell of the sea and guiding us and then you're watching game of thrones has that north are you watching aim of her request was sure I'll buy mature enough. My celebrate commitment that watching movies tv, as I could compromise I am not calling I am- is like it asked it and what you're no I've I is yet right

but if I had the violence, a game of thrones read that you read the book Joshua recently or the book of judges, the book of judges, I'm doing a Bible commentary right now. The book judges is a lot like a score. Zizi film, look at the end of the book of judges involves murdering of a prostitute and ended her dismemberment and sending the peace of the body around the country and saw the book to judges ends when we say what you want about that. It's not like a nice cute story for kids, but it's God. Speaking through the inner That's is grosses anything and game of thrones, and so we can't be that puritanical I like the idea that he watches game of thrones and he's like well strip off the collar, and I cannot give a commitment element. So I mean I don't know, how related this is, it feels related, but you're there there's this Canada's cultural,

idea that Christians should be we can out. We can believe whatever we want private, but we can't let that affect how we work. We can that affect our politics. You know for politicians like Amy Coney bear it. It was like well what, if she letter what, if you let's are but leave of affect her, how she rules from the bent China, but it's kind of is this one sided thing we're that's only that's only set of Christians are not set of of people who, drive to existentialist or secular philosophies. How do you respond to something like them? Why am against? That's the colored Modern Peace Treaty. I think Stanley how're was the great method. Is the illusion put it that way that at the beginning of a dirty, a kind of peace treaty was may thy will tolerate irreligious types as long as we remain private, so you can whispered irreligion among yourselves, but don't come out in public. The public space should be your kind of religiously neutral. Why I mean,

The best and brightest people in our own tradition have always resist that, because Christianity can't exists that way, it's not simply a private reality. It has to do with God it has to do with declaration of the lordship of Jesus and it means lordship over every aspect of life? So we cannot accept the modern peace treaty that simply pay. Advertises religions and of hobby now The wind draw their John Paul. The second said those here that religion at its best never, imposes. It only proposes so certainly not one in imposing religion in the public space, I'm gonna make you become catholic rime and make a law sing. You must go to mass on Sunday, but architect, three to propose our religion in the public space to live it to live the moral implications of it. Yeah I mean we have to claim that it seems to me so that that the space. I think that we have to move into, but

but the modern peace treaty that gets reasserted a lot. Will tolerate you somewhat crazy people as long as you keep yourselves private, but we and we can, by that so what about pro choice? Catholics, politicians, her Catholics. He had, The current president, will you make that stuff I am against it. I know but it's not a consistent position. Hole I mean you, you can't be consistent catholic and say I'm also pro on the abortion issue you know what else every I've noticed I met. Is I've lived long enough to to go from Mario Cuomo to his son? What's Andrew Como and I remember Mario Como in the eighties. You know Look, I'm I'm really opposed to this as a Catholic, but you know publicly I kind of grudging we accepted because of you, no one ever so that I personally appalling public, we kind of

will you go from vat, a kind of reluctant you know captain to his son who, when they passed the most it'll egregiously brutal abortion law in the country more light. Up the empire. State building were having a public celebration over it. I remember Bill, Clinton and company. You know abortion should be legal, safe and rare. We'll have I take That today is a step in the right direction. Now it's like hey, let's have a: let's have a party when we passed the most brutal. Even this happened a few days ago. We may consider it again this amendment. That would say hey how about if a child somehow survives in abortion procedure is lying on the table shouldn't, we do something to say that babies, life and the answer was no one time. I that's just barbarism in so I say that not only are catholic, I see as a whole as a decent person. I'm saying that appeal into people's moral sensibility,

and ass. My thinking on that I don't think it's a consistent position for a catholic to whole know what are good ways for I mean Christians to make that argument in the culture. You know another's people who feel like we, like the scientific arguments and there's a lot of Catholics tend to lead the way on this. In terms of the pro life organizations and in fighting their battle, I mean making the right arguments. Are we having the right discussions? So what what are some ways? We can do that. You know it's a good question, because we ve been making the argument in a way for a long time I say ever since Roby Wade, we ve been making the argument, and I think we have very good arguments based on biology based on embryology, etc, that lie the human life recognizably begins. It conception, I think, is a very defensible position. so we ve been making an argument? I think you know you're, up against an ideological position where people are not responding so much to reason. It's there there. Their call, an ideology

and about what I said a few minutes ago. Heck at this point I too, you if you said hey, why don't we? We say the baby on the table that survive and abortion procedure should be saved our get behind the bill I'll get behind. What are we eliminate partial birth abortion I'll get behind a step in the right direction? How about we limit? Would again, I am old enough to remember when, when democratic politicians were saying look, why are we to say you know first trimester, but then, after that sure accept any these limitations as a step in the right direction. So you keep making me argument, you keep pressing it legally, as I've been suggesting, and I you you witness things. Maybe most powerful thing is again, although mention how're, was here how us appear. For Congress many years ago, as as a method is theologian and they asked him. What's your argument against abortion and he said Christians don't kill their children.

now, what he was doing here on purpose was not appealing to science or to even like natural. Why? You think? Look I'm a Christian, I'm a Christian, the public space, I'm here to tell you. Christians, don't kill their children that that's my argument. Now as a Catholic, Iser mix up natural law and the use of philosophy of that, but I also think that cool christian witness is to say what they early Christians go back to the early centuries when it'll. Romans would expose the children on the hillside. If there was a child, it was to form in some way or are unacceptable. and Christians and we're not gonna, do them and people said hey. How these Christians love one another and they had a huge impact on evangelist Asian, so that important too. I think just our are witness It is difficult for me because I do What you're talking about here is that people are not can

despite these arguments and always because they have bought into an underlying philosophy, and they didn't even know what it is or then we know what comes from and like he was. You know you can withstand it's, not a very convincing argument. You ve already lost, and when you start talking about nature, you know cause they're like what are you talking about. You know, but they do have these. These philosophies from marks in each region and the other guys you mentioned that are forming this. This world you we need. I it's like. We need awake Christians up to understand, culture before we can engage it. But how do you get people to read did guys from the nineteenth and twentyth centuries? It's I don't know if I'm going to have to do anything in there, but it's difficult. No but what it sees you re born it that some people are you just keep her hands with Nita S, gonna work. No, I think some people should actually read Nijio Company in Michel, Foucault. Also people like me, I was a theology professor for a long time philosophy, professor, so people like me good. We should read those tax and understand them, but then translate

and interpret them for a wider public. So am I talk about these themes, often without mentioning any these people, that's not the point, but the idea, as I said, is an in the minds of almost every seventeen year old, so they can understand nature in a sort of distilled form. So deport than some of us and the christian World, really engage those people the high level. But then we got They were kind of a translation move and it's ok We would do that for two thousand years. Are you saying the effects of like Marxism, an existential ism in the churches. Em in especially among the young people, is a southern that you're constantly having to engage with. I think that was actually more common. Maybe years ago, when I was coming of age, so right after Vatican too, for us, that's a big watershed. The second vote in council and in those after the Vatican to like the late sixties in the seventies there was kind a very left wing Catholicism that was holding sway,

Yeah some of those influences got into the church. I think during the John Paul, the second and Benedict years, a lot of that was kind of dealt with. I think it was argued away. Is some of it coming back, maybe, but I don't see it as much in the church is in the wider society. My fears it's his descent filiation is: young people are leaving the church in in massive numbers. So there's been a major concern of mine is why are they leaving and how do we get them back? You feel that the this is our when I'm cause, I'm not a Catholic, obviously, and then I saw ass. My friend is catholic when he would ask you in and he asked we quickly, he gave me questions. I fully understand the context of a he asked at the: U S c c b have appropriate priorities and he said Saint question for Pope Francis and finally that he feels that there's a left word, leaning thing going on there,

you feeling they address these issues properly. Are today thereafter. Other issues, I guess I Know- Can we often better, I guess we'll stay you stay with the Pull France's fermented. Every paupers is different personality and style and emphasis any different than Benedict and John Paul. The second, but would France's, for example, he stands. absolutely opposed to abortion. I can give you these these acts of views that are really fear or son that he's against the gender ideology, in fact we met right before cover the bishops California went to Rome for was called the oddly Mina visit. It means to the threshold, so you go in be visit with the Pope and we are three hours with Willem. and he said he asked me what everyone. So we just talk two or three hours. He was I really strong against the whole kind of gender ideology movement so I'm those issues. I think he's he's perfectly clear easy.

more naturally, given to economic issues, concerns about the poor of immigration about climate change and all that yeah. He is now Pope Benedict, who is known as the more conservative Benedict, was known as the green pulp because he installed in old solar panels and the Vatican etc. He was talking a lot about the environment, so did John Paul the second, so I, In our famously catholic social teaching, we call it a sort of political teaching covers the guy. I mean it's not left or right. It does simply does not fit into our right categories. So I didn't think Frances. Maybe is naturally a little more given to what you might call left issues, but he cut of the range left to right of catholic Social teacher, we have for a name Seamus. Who is it Catholic he's a cartoonist here, he said either

libertarian, as his Catholicism will allow him to be a period that without doesn't get you think, libertarianism aligns enough of Catholicism or where does it run into problems? Well, that's all words. Made of definitions are too. I suppose, but I wouldn't be all that sympathetic with a libertarian view which to me is very much of a modernism put too much distress on a kind of itself, invention that I it's my freedom, it's my determination. the church holds out, I think, a biblical view of liberty- and this brings is close to The great reformers too because for the Bible, freedom is not self determination Support will say it's for freedom. The crisis set me free, but Paul does it mean, Now you do whatever I want, because he also says I am the slave of Christ. Jesus was a modern people. We know what to make of. How can you be anyone slave and be free? Will it make perfect sense for Paul, because under

the lordship of Christ, he was now freed from all of US attachments and all of a sudden and so on, but it was his submission to crazed that liberated him. So I follow that line. I mean our liberty indeed is found in surrender to Christ, and so is not a matter of I've decided- and this is it's up to me now- Another sheet on the other side of the libertarian thing would be suspicion. a government that wants to be too manipulative and to involve in every aspect of life and catholic Social teaching likes that do because it talks about subsidiary, things should be left in a more local level. Governments shouldn't be like Fussily involved in every aspect of life. So too that degree I'd say yeah I became a with some of the libertarian views, so anyway, that's it all depends on how we're defining our terms as both sure but you see like enlightened

night, the enlightenment idea of like classical liberalism being fundamentally at odds with costs. Catholicism urges that come from out of healthy and balanced understanding of God and and and human will, the best. If it does, and it's it's a very important point, because you know one thing I hate today is the whole woke thing woke ISM is: is a vile movement. In my judgment and compared awoke ISM out they classical liberalism any day, the weak and twice on Sunday night it's infinitely better than than workers and which is based in nature, and we call on all those people and is, a tag in his dick social theory, and it wants equality of outcome and all these things that are really inimical a classical liberalism if you d find it as things like equality of opportunity, respect for the rights of the individual of equality of all people under God. So I always add that caviar and I insist upon Jefferson's language-

that we have these rights from God, we are equal, as children, God because look we're not equal any of us in in skill or beauty or talent or f. Let us ism or anything world radically unequal. So how the hell are we equal and the real classical liberals, I think understood or equal. children of God. If all that in place I love and I love classical liberalism. What happened? They can more easily enough into a kind of libertarianism or into a sort of a self assertive. When you start taking the divine element out of it. You know, but so little spectrum woke ism. I hate, I think, that's really bad news classical liberalism, a hundred percent, better Catholicism, and a richly catholic understanding of social life better still

but ass. We get time whenever a couple hours stated, your masters thesis ethnic there ain't on marks, Carro Maria- and you know that Marxism gets thrown around quite a bit these days. That's like Canada, rightwing thing just shot, verges everything you where you know. Where do you see it? incorrectly of Karl Marx, his influence, but also De Villiers new places where that's over used, whereas get oh yeah arisen, overstep yeah. I think so I mean, if you see anything left of centre is Marxist Walesa right, of course, we Marxism, you'd, say state control of the means of production, and you talk about marks is pure communism. We could talk about marks

is very reductive view of a human being. Why nothing? Joe Biden has any of that I made safe Joe Biden or or like the classic Democrats, are marks as that's not true that there are people today that self identifies socialists, and so they get closer to marks. Now that all the way, even like a Bernie Sanders Rail Sea there not marxist and the pure sense, though there there trending, in that direction. so that we probably over use the term it's a pretty technical description. We have to understand marks is basic moves and their united, if God, is as is essential to real Marxism, it seems to me marks thought it was the first critique before you. to economics and politics. You gotta get rid of God, because religious, the opium of the masses and as long as religions, around they're, going to dragged into complacency there? I can want to change anything. There won't be a revolution, so get rid of God. First me, I think that's elemental too, to Marxism in the full sense,

but then it see over state control, the means of production and the elimination of private property. All that stuff there are many people in our situation that would adopt that entire programme seems to me so we're probably overusing it that way. There's like that culture Marxism talk, do you think that lawyers you see ready to that talk. You know words yeah now they're right like in that some of the movements on the scene today there are marxist elements to be sure and someone it isn't that what I referred to earlier as antagonistic social theory, so marks wants to stir up antagonism. This the purpose of the marxist intellectual is to stir up the hill the proletariat so engages in active rebellion, Marxism hey gaily, and so he sees you know, faeces antithesis and when the two class we get the synthesis, so he wants there. He wants there to be conflict and cattle.

Social teaching is a non antagonistic social theory. You know it's is based on the kind of a complimentary understanding of the of the classes and so on. So I think those elements are there any of the use of violence, the condoning violence that certainly true of Karl Marx. So there are those elements you know in it and also that the question of religion in some of the social movies today you definitely see hostility towards religion that were were part of the problem. You know that were part of the establishment and has to be done away with that's gotta. marxist flavour to be sure. Our eye. What we're gonna move into our subscriber portion and Bishop barons gonna tell us how to defeat marks once and for all, really worried about real amount being universalism. Apparently, the internet hard grill himself,

hard, and then I will talk, I'm rage estrogen bill. Let's do it guerrilla Mangi gate yesterday,

coming up next for Babylon be subscribers. He says you have some detractors, claiming that you're virtually universe list that everyone has a reasonable hope of being saved in that that you would say, let Catholicism Christianity Eric preferred path, yeah I'll try, but both of those Lenny you think Chesterton would make Donald Trump, but I think that states, what you think is right. It woke ism now is a common enemy of a lot of us who just hold to classical values. Enjoying this hard hitting interview become of Babylon me subscriber to hear the rest of this conversation go to Babylon, be dotcom, flash plans for full length, freefall, gas, Kyle and Ethan. I would like to thank Seth Dylan for paying bills Adam forward for creating their job, the other writers or tirelessly pitching headlines subscribers and list until next time. This is Davy Andrea moistened, the Babylon B.