Fine, I'm not ready Jean our role. As you know, there are different assistants, yet here by your casual you're, good, ready. Ok, ladies and gentlemen, we are rolling into another episode of the Candle Owens Show and one that I am very excited to bring to the forefront of the discussion. I always make the comment that there is not enough discussion between black conservatives and black liberals for whatever reads and I invite so many black rose on to my show and despite their willingness to tweet at me, to tweet about me to write articles about me, they never take me up on that offer, which always leads me to the question do they actually believe what they believe? You shall go into any Roman defend my positions, because I actually think what I say that I believe is true. I'm very

cited that one person I instantly message on twitter- and he said yes, let's do it come on I'll, come right on the show Mark Lamont Mark Lamont is a professor, a tenured professor a Temple University on peaches me Yes studies Markleham until welcomed the cannon. On show. Thank you for having and they let you leave it is. I think it's good, because people need to realize you can have a discussion with somebody that disagrees with you and, and I actually one person I forgot to mention that disagrees with me, but we have so much love between each other is killer MIKE. I think he's one of the greatest leaders in the black unity. We are totally under pages, he was pro and I pro trump, but he cares, and he knows it, I care and we read aloud the same books and we have slight disagreement, but one hundred and twenty two are, I think, important talk about publicly I'm. So, let's get right into obviously the hot topic of today. Which was the killing of George Floyd, the protests

have ensued all across the country because of that and my comments, to which seem to have shocked the world about me, not believing that he was deserving of this martyr status, meaning four funerals. I think now we're actually at five funerals publicly a golden casket device. And it showing up at his funeral, or I think, eventually he decided Just do a video, the former vice Joe Biden and celebrities there, and I thought that that actually sent not a great message publicly as yeah. Why do you say that? What did you think about my comments? The fact I was watching them this morning again, I thought they were off base. I think I think you point out some things that may be factually true, but are beside the point so to say, for example, that George Floyd had a criminal past

True right, I don't know whether there's drugs and system or not. You know I want to see a little more evidence, but let's say for a moment that all types of reports that we say are correct, both the private one and private apps. So far right, I'm not I don't see an argument for why that should make any difference. Now you can see it that what the police officer did was wrong, which I appreciate it, because if we don't sat there, then it's a good faith argument right then it's like what are we talking about. The problem is those things can be used as a distraction from the point that you did touch on, which is that this was wrong and that state violence is wrong, no matter who it's against, and I me whether he was on drugs, whether he wrapped in stores is irrelevant to this particular conversation. Yeah now I think suffer me. I It's actually very relevant and not too. I wasn't saying that to overshadow the conversation, I actually didn't think that, because shadow at the conversation was being overshadowed because it was the actual the first time that there was a full consensus left in

right that this police officer was wrong. There was nobody disputing it. I mean. Even in the travel and Martin situation, you had left and right different opinions, different beliefs of what actually took place this one it was just rock solid across the board. Everybody agreed on, including the police station. To me that the chief of police, he came out and said that it was completely wrong up. You know who was a black chief of police in Minneapolis the fastest process ever to investigate it into get him around did so I mean, in terms of justice, being served his immediate immediate. So what I didn't understand you know was why we had the response of protests when justice was served right, ear, usually protest.

because you ve been agreed or there's been a wrong and you're looking for something to be corrected. This was not that circumstance, and on top of that there was a glorification happening of him where people were actually saying that this was eight. He was a hero. We had a little kids, weren T shirts, calling him you know George Floyd hero in these marches. I was looking at these t shirts and that's wrong. I just can't get behind that this I mean. If your point is that you're defending black lives is whole platform, which was to be about black lives. George voice bent his entire life harassing black people and destroying black lives, so how I just don't see how it can be both for its boots. I would disagree with driven from the first point. Is that the just just wasn't donor, where one officer determined approach as one of its resources, there were three who stood there with their hands in their pockets,

doing nothing watching him die, they were complicit and there wasn't. There was nor there what they were fired ripe, but they were arrested, so you felt they should have been arrested immediately. They were working so that I mean I was trying to be a little sensitive to the fact that I still know how I feel about that, like they were rookies, it was their third or second damage job. This guy was a senior you know had. A senior position has been there for years. They were probably in a second or third damage job. Looking at this guy you're going? This must be the right thing to do. You know if everyone in America could see that this was the wrong thing to do what you, like, you said by partisan agreement, that this is not what we're supposed to do. Again. There is. There is a herd mentality, there's a gang mentality and often occurs even with police. It sometimes especially with police, where you see something awful happen, and nobody wants to be that person to say, hey stop, but that's the job, especially a rookie. Now I can't let him off the hook. Even if I was that it was my first, at Starbucks and I saw a manager stuffing cash into his pocket. My first second day, I'm not a market.

the person to raise that issue because you're just going. I don't know if this is supposed to be going on, but I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and again that's a bad example because that's not doing harm what, if you saw on the first day of manager, spitting in someone's coffee You wouldn't say: oh I don't I'm a rookie. Maybe we do thing you could imagine, as that's happening, live that somebody might just be looking around versus. If I, if I've been there for a few years, I'm gonna be like what the heck did. You just do because you're not comfortable and job be afraid to everybody's a new person, so I was a much more sympathetic to the ones. We're standing by about defending them. But I'm saying I try to a little more understanding their chosen you look at your like. This guy has been worked out, a policeman, The rapporteur is the one doing all this stuff. They just looked like uncomfortable idiots and that's what they I think. They were therefore to the point of people didn't feel like justice? It was like. Oh, we got our justie, but let's tear shit up anyway. Can I say: can I curse? Yeah yeah people like you know, you know we just tears up anyway. People were wanted accountability from these four officers and they

didn't, get it and so and whether we think it was fast or slow is not really the point. I'm just saying I would dispute the idea that justice was solved and and we kept going anyway. The other point here that you raised, which is an interesting one, is about Oh actually, let me say one thing about the first point, the other thin here as these protests weren't just about George Floyd. Here they were about a sea of issues, and this was like the culmination point which often happens in history, and we can talk about that. The other thing, though, I think about raising them to the level of hero. First of all, I think whenever someone is eulogized- and these were national- public eulogies. We dont say year by right: when we eulogise Reagan right will you know as a nation, there were many people whose who chided black book you know and people on the left. for criticizing policy say, wait, there's a time for that, but why are we criticizing them now in time of morning? Why are we doing this here? Why are we doing this now so yeah? I don't think at George Ploys funeral. We should be raising as criminal as criminal history, but again I don't see how they

relevant to the issue here. No, no one was saying that he was a champion of black people, his entire life. The point was regardless of who he is his life mattered. His life is worthy of protection. In some ways. I am actually interested to think about what it means for us to fight for someone who wasn't perfect, because very often We only fight for the the middle class is gendered straight heterosexual, guy who's, going to college on Monday, like MIKE Brown, or we have to put Trayvon on a horse to say that he didn't need to die and it's like. That's not the point you shouldn't have to be perfect. Well, actually the point because- and this is my problem with which our community is- that the big black Americans are hypocrites, we're hypocrites right so you say: well, it's not the point well where, where were we on the issues of kids, getting shot actual innocent black victims being killed? You know every every weekend every day the the inner cities? Nobody cares. If you want, you want to give somebody a funeral, and you want to have it be five days long. Why not for that Lee the nine the nine year old kid

who is wearing a school uniform playing basketball when he was lured into an alley by it. You don't older black man who then shot him point blank in the head two times because he didn't like his dad. It was like a gang violence. Nobody cared so this whole idea there's this uprising because you care about black lives, don't pretend to care about black lives. You like the political. greedy and see a caring about a black life about black life. If and only if, and only it only when it they die at the hands of a police officer, died the hands rather of a white person, because it does not happen, we suffer as almost a white. But we kill ourselves faster. Nobody cares. So can you name Can you name the last ten black people that die of homicide in this country? It wasn't your exploit, of course, not, of course not. Why not? Because there is a. Let me go to the first point you make touch on me. Of course, that's something we should be sad about and I think black folk are. I've never met a black person who didn't care about black on black or the violence. We can talk about the protest of that. Let me finish this other point, though. I think when you get to touch on LE the point, is we

more him right and that the issue with my should you at your Floyd was imagine if we we mourn touch, only we go to streamline and then you bring up the fact that the schoolyard bully Hypothetical right, if you like, will yeah. Ok, maybe schoolyard bully, but that's not relevant to this thing. We're talking about right now, I'm okay with you talking about violence within the community, the question is: do we want to bring it up here and what what political work does it do to criticism in? That's me, I guess especially appoint to bring it up there and I now by talking about being a schoolyard bullying at that's totally different. That almost sounds petticoat you're talking about somebody who ran drugs, the black community, a huge issue that Black Americans we about about all the reason. So so much addiction you know is is because of drugs. The reason that and people point and people point that you that you know the CIA into crack into communities black communities. But then, when you talk about why we Have this issue of drugs? We we we, we want to murder somebody who went to prison five times for selling drugs armed robbery. You want to talk about violence, I mean we're talking about a man. This is not a guy who just was bullying people. I mean

you for short, you're on your way into a woman's home and put a pistol to her stomach and threatened to kill her as you rob her while she's pregnant. Ok, this guy was a terrorist. In my opinion, I think we are literally murdering somebody who terrorized a black moon is entire life, I'm not comfortable with it now if he had done a one. Eighty at the end of his life, I believe in forgiveness. You know I'm not above you know believing that people make mistakes, but this was not the story of George Floyd and that, and that is proven by the fact that he was on the most addictive drug, that is in America today, which is fentanyl is one hundred times stronger or how's, it make him a bad person. I'm saying the idea, I'm attacking the narrative that but then, after his ninth student in prison, which is by the way, if you want to talk about a record, it's going to prison nine times, it's very difficult to do. You know before he turned forty years old and he did it. Okay, Then people wanted to say, then he moved to Minneapolis changes life around. I have a problem with the lie and don't like a lie. He didn't change his life around. He was still doing drugs, he was still pushing drugs and he was high on Dentinal and Ethan Thetime up time of his arrest, which, by the way, fentanyl literally quite which really

is what doctors give to patients when they want to bring down their breathing and my problem cause we can never have an on are so many black victims in the world. You know true victims of homicide who have done well, maybe they were high school bullies, but who has a trade round of them? Is that that no I'm saying when I say yet, he was a true victim of a homicide by you know who knows at the end of the day is right now there's dispute in them. The close amateur report. Some are saying what he actually died from sentinel. You know his is breached complicated by whatever. Then they got a private person, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not going to dispute how the manner of his death, but I am going to agree that what Derek showman did was an example of police brutality, regardless of whether or not is exactly what led to his death I just don't think it's honest assistance. It's not ok to meet elevate. Somebody traumatize locked with their entire lives. He was about meant no end, is it relevant yeah when you're putting him on t shirts and you have little kids wearing posters and crying yeah? That should not be your person that you're looking up to. I wouldn't tell Y kids upon a George Floyd T shirt yeah. I don't think the world is looking up to

before I think they're looking to his death as an example of of what's happening to us every single day in societies- and I think that's the kind I happened to Us Emerson adeimantus- I owe it absolutely is: what is excessive force police brutality? Put the ear police police are killing lack Americans everyday, not brutality, excessive force and atomic death? The talent right, that's the point. right, George Floyd was beaten. Excuse me, people are beaten every day, George Floyd was attacked, some people are beating because they they are being violent to police officers. So if you look at the data, the data suggests something different. What does that suggest? The data see even when you control for the nature of the offensive the charge for meaning, obviously, there's a go. Which has it. You have physical around with a violent offender. Them say someone who passes off like a counterfeit build or someone who steals a loaf of bread and milk any any control for all the other day on all the other factors which,

mitigate against the argument I'm making or challenge the argument. I'm making blacks and Latinos are forty to fifty percent face four or forty forty to fifty percent, more likely to face successful force. Now, when you get to the to death, when you get to police shootings, the most accurate in recent data from the studies that are out don't suggest a racial disparity right back, we are necessarily more likely to be killed by law enforcement on a day to day basis. The numbers are relatively low but excessive force. Absolutely the data is, is indisputable, the black my wedding? Will? Who statistics I mean if you can that he biogas I've looked at statistics knife I've never seen this and I, namely I'm talking about police people, have actually been proven to be using Sesar Forest. There has been no racial disparity and if there is one white white males are more likely. They want you're. Looking at that, you're looing at the death not just killed, except you know excessive brutality, I'm talking about I'm not talking about filing because you might be talking about filings, no, no, I'm

I'm talking, but even if you, even when you look at the community level, Roland Friar has a study in two thousand and eighteen, the journal political economy, that's been reviewed, peer, reviewed, etc. Theirs- and here she pushes back against more stronger arguments on my side, which I'm not invoking, because, I would say, I think, rolling study. Actually more accurate in invest in my favor, but the data that their submitting ironic is, is from police departments. Why? So? So? We could intuitively believe that the most races police, private arts, amended data. So these are the police to arms. They hate we're. Doin is right. There were willing to show you, the stuff and forty to fifty percent of that. Forty two, forty four forty to fifty percent higher rate among black and brown view of excessive force that being drawn to the good being also bring her costs will require they re. She suggests tinges. That data and say there being thrown to the ground means nothing. Unless you say what the reasons were for them being thrown to the ground, you get it I'm saying so. It becomes at that become that data is very subjective if you're saying

You know they threw him to the ground because he was running and they had to throw him to the ground, and you saw a police support where they've studied and it says this person was thrown around and he was black okay. Well, the answer could also be the look of a physics of who's more likely to fight back ends, police officers and the answer is black people, so data can always manipulated assuring ants you wanna here, which is why I think the most concrete aberrant, legible study locust did they actually dressed up everything. This I've been samples from poor in concrete data. Look out and I'm glad you already acknowledged it is that there is racial disparities when you look at the numbers of who's actually dying at the end of police officers, so the entire narrative that's out there right now in the world, is just patently wrong. I'm talking about deaths now you know, white Americans are twenty five percent more likely to be killed by police officers. If you're talking about death, police officers are eight and a half times more likely to be killed by a black man than the other day around. Why aren't police honestly

a test by police officers against black men would make more sense in what you say and a half times Lotto. It would mean in this goes to the question of animal welfare, not protest in black on black crime. I there's prisons are filled with black people for killing black people. Prisons are filled likely now how many of them are not caught. No, I'm not saying everyone who does it is caught. My point is that black people have a good faith expectation that will go to jail for kelp for doing cross. Right does not exist, dismal narrative, the bug you don't go to jail for stuff right. The problem is with law enforcement when is the other way around, when law enforcement does crime against us, it is the daily ritual of excessive force against ass. We now, don't have a good faith, belief that they will be arrested, that they'll be fired. They arrested that we tried and if they are tried, we have no believed it. They'll be found guilty, even if the evidence is overwhelming and so what were protests. against is a system that is supposed to be honest and fair, but isn't it doesn't you'll just outcomes so far, why, when it went somewhere in my neighborhood, you know get shot.

the guy gets carried on the handcuffs, we're not protesting not, because we're not outraged by it but protesting doesn't actually stop person. A killing person be right. The protest is to stop at the level letter the neighborhood, but when it comes to police, the ideas that we're protesting, a system that post and then the highest responsibility yeah. But mean police again, looking at the data and again I'm talking about death because excessive force as soon as you use the word excessive, because it's an agentive it lets. You know that it's subjective, right. Excessive is like saying tallish or no. No, no, it's not gonna end up, that's not so. Today they have they ve operational lies it. So it specifically, you see you use of violence when we not use of violence beyond what's necessary to detain the suspect or use of its unprompted right, so Dave operational as its end again, their basis. Also on the response of the officers they're, basing it even officer

for our own strongly urge to redistribute. I may I will get mood I'm flying in the dark here, because you know how you're telling me about a city that I haven't actually read, and I definitely have studied this and I got, as I said. Perhaps they have operate analyzed it and there's a way to determine what concerned excessive force. I dont know that end I'm sure I don't have. That said, he informed me, but we do know, is that people are protesting out today are not protest, because they believe that police officers are using excessive for Are there the mainstream narrative narrative, whether hadn't people on and talked on, CNN and black lives matter? Their entire platform is about black dying unknown, depends resources expounded upon that concept, so I hate the fact that were now shifting and pretending it too something else more widening the and we're making it excessive for studies that nobody is talking about on CNN. Everybody is talking specifically about the idea that a black man, Is unarmed as likely to die at the hands of police officer and that's fraudulent to fraudulent? It's a lie, so it one brake

she wasn't found in those founded on travel more. Instead, we did nothing to law enforcement. George amendment wasn't alone, Foresman officer, So from the beginning, we're talking about the kind of sense of unsafety unprotected ess that black people experience not just from law enforcement, but really around the you know in every sector of our lives like people, not just men, but women then in any one else, first thing and think like movement is always talked about. The daily violence, among other things, if you look at the movement for black lives policy statement, atonement all kinds of stuff- it's always been election, most about algae BT movement. Now it's a wide. It's but net. Isn't it's the problem. You create a wide net when you, when you're Fulla, bullshit right when you know your bullshit not just about we're about Trans rights and police, it's like maybe one sentence. Now, that's even about police anything, they ve really kind of dwindled it in its actually more about equality for

trans something that this gives. I think this would be a bureau, why not the transport of nuclear quietly, but but the idea that, we're not singling out the police were saying that we should about black lives in all sectors. I mean it's pat of the part of the argument. You're making about black on black violence is one about saying: we should care about black life, not just when it when, when it's threatened by police, but everywhere the movement for black lives are saying, look we care about poverty. We care about, certainly state violence. We care about food and security. We care about all these things because they connect so they're lying. That's the whole point. You can put that statement on your website say, but then, when you're a solution that is to go into streets and to write into burn down into loot and every time you have a protest it I'm just why? So it's not like there was one of them, There was only there was at one time where they started every time. Blacklist merit met matter, narrative, Sarge running in the media, black people die by people's neighborhoods, get burned down from the start of trait of travel more in moving onto Friday, gray, and here we are today with George Floyd with about our very. This is what happened

every single time, so their monopolies live there and that there was that wasn't there? May have been other protests that we're I'm not saying. I'm not. You know condemning our protest even pushing back into time. What I'm saying is every time they're narrative when I say, becomes mainstream time their narrative everytime. You go whoop we're doing likewise matter again. You can bet your ass, our across the nation. I've never heard you gonna Burma. People lose their jobs and by people lose their lives right so that that's it that's the hypocrisy. The idea that they care about all the other stuff when, in fact, every time there protesting it is specifically about police brutality and black people suffer if you're, if your solution is worse than the problem, it's on a solution, so how many people have died and George, protests. So that's the apple I've been arrested because of these George Floyd protest. How many black people have been impoverished because of these George Floyd protests? That's one's a good time to sit back and say is what I'm doing working okay. So let's look at that, so I think one it's an interesting way to frame this black lives matter protest happen every day and they happened.

Two thousand and fourteen. Your point is that the media network, when, when it becomes an at the national out of becomes you know this to be a moment. Shit is on fire. When I'm, you to consider is a part of what happens when shit is on fire. They phobia limb onto it. that they don't that they don't count for all these other I mean I go to Bel and protests all the time when people are marching we're not just marching against police violence. Again, that's just the sexy story. Cable news doesn't actually care about black food and security or or trans men? One of the most vulnerable populations are black trans women in terms of being subject to death again, but that's because the majority of watch the reason that they have a higher death rate. But, MS, There are few reasons their structural factors, but we can talk about that too. But my point is we don't cover it so so part of it is that is part of it is not the black people don't care about this stuff? It's it's! What sexy to corporate sex corporate media is like people burnish it there right. So so I will totally gave you that that is usually one. It's

it's the one for US guys. No, I mean look. I have said that o ne of our problem is the media, and but at that point, though, if your movement is being hijacked and that's how it's being portrayed, how do you combat that? Well, I think you have one you have to decide if you care but the dominant media narrative is and also what again, what political work does that media narratives, because I'm mad I also want to retain the rebellions that we ve been seeing around the country, aren't significant and our values. You know, I don't think they can be the only game in town right if your, if everything the rebellions, are good yeah, oh yeah, these autonomous cities, the burning, including a black community and of other black black movies homes in bringing down the neighborhood implacable are crying on screen, saying that their neighborhood, you being assure you see that as a good, no arms. I see a movement of uprisings around the country is good. Now we can discuss tactically whether each specific act is somehow it's got delicious. Let's take Minneapolis the first woman they burned down the city. Tell me how you little that and said this is good

So one thing is it again: black death is so ordinary. This country right work as we do it the whole time to ourselves, and like that is so ordinary in this country, regardless of how we sort of we can analyze. Why, in a moment, but getting the nation to stop and pay attention often requires the spectacle the spectacle of violence right I nothing about Kling people, not me, but I had people talk, but even like tearing up a store right. You look at Martin Luther king. This is one example. we're Martin thinking, leverage the spectacle of violence to get America pay attention daily differences, Morton King said we're going to strategize so that we could be right when I go to other people up, but we're getting beat right I mean the pet is bridge was: was the the idea of being a Pettis bridge? Was you know that if we, if we protest here that they will that the police will come and harm us yeah, and that merely strategy, because it showed America that the problem was the police. Do you think the spectrum right now is showing America's the problem? Is the police, when you look at these riots. It is not. This is the exact opposite of Martin Luther King strategy. The exact opposite Martin Luther King said we're.

going to go in and be peaceful and we're gonna watch them sent dogs on us, they're, going to set their fire hose on us and when the whole world sees these clips, they're going to realise that the problem is rate that are white people that are racist and the poor and the governments spot. That allows her to go on. Ok when he crushed that it was a brilliant strategy. Right now like America strategy, his we're gonna go and be violent. We're gonna go in and loot work click would it take the tv and then America is going to think lives matter is a terrorist unit and that's exactly what it is, but I guess what I what I'm pushing back first, when I'm pushing back into we don't look good. This is not making why people look good. The first thing I pushed back against is his idea that the only time we can engage in the type of resistance. If we're our bodies are the ransom for justice. I sing you some on the king strategy. No, no! I'm with you. I am green that it's not I'm saying it something exact. It's not the same tactic. The over strategy he's still to use violence and the special

In a word, it was bad. You just work, but you in your work. It's in what you say is that's cool. If the dogs of biogas and holds this ring, I'm saying you're, not the message you gonna delivers about people or violent. So using idea, you- and you have just already said that you thought more of the king had a good charging. I agree with what we are doing. Is you take up? strategy, so we are showing that black people are violent, that black people loose, that black people rob that lock will kill or another. That is what that is. What is being shown, how you think we're winning with that narrative. I don't know, I don't know what right now I was thinking, I'm so glad We are tired of seeing these at a target and burn down target, because now people are more part of what have we everything in one respect, for that, we shall not be able to tell you, but when we can, we talk about king right because this king, in an emerging sixty five, but this also what's happening in Watson. Sixty five what's happening in Detroit and sixty seven in the Arctic. Rebellion you're talking about are happening around an what happened. I hear my thought out, though. My point is that it's never a single strategy right, there's, always multiple things happening or

There are people calling for defunding right now and there are people on the streets just like king. There are people, there are people who are aching and getting beaten by a police, and there are people who are tearing up Detroit and what I'm saying we need multiple strategies. Now I agree with you, I would love, I would love and I got to say I have a bookstore in Philadelphia and a whole bunch of stores on my block got smashed sneaker store, got rated. What else got rated another hair store got rated. My bookstore did not write. My coffee shop did not now it's not nearly as random. As you might think. Much of this became a lot of us That's all you turned on your own, it most not what is an hour's most of it. are occupying our of the stuff we're taking most homes that are burning. We don't own, so target were, but they hire me Are black people see you've taken by people's jobs in that situation? I just

I'm trying to see one positive thing in burning down and looting and robbing- and I want to go back because you brought up the you know the mid. Sixty S protest and the riots rather because he weren't protest on the notorious Detroit in Chicago a while ago place. They were rebellions riot same thing which are forms of pollutants. Ok sure what was the and consequence of that the voting rights of sixty of the note. That happened, the war that sixty four, that the riots happened in sixty seven and sixty eight, the YAP different, but the so occasional kinda sixty eight and we get more civil rights. Legislation. Much later It is an after method of bone. But what what? What was the in this is. The thing is people you you're looking for peace legislation, but what happened Detroit and Chicago worthy the economic boom for the black community. The riots happened, the worshipper got up and laughed and a depressed those cities. Are you ok? So the thing is that this is the problem everybody wants to be in the now I'm in the later. Ok, I'm already hearing the conversations amongst business owners they're, leaving the really big cities. So you want to talk,

signing up for another sixty years of black po er. It's that what we did. We signed up for black poverty and it started in the nineteen sixty s. First and foremost, it was a legislation that was supposed to be helpful, nope that lets economic depression too, because I incentivized bad behavior. All of the the Great Society ACT and all that stuff that happened in the MID sixties was not good for Black America sounded good, like everything Democrats before sounded great we're gonna give you stop really device father absence. It welfare, the black community- and it made us married us to the government. On top of that, we burn and lose our own community, seeking that we were gonna get justice and what really happened as the business leaders laughed, the jobs left, but people had no jobs and we were poor. And we had sick, we have now had sixty years complaining that the condition of Chicago and a change in our cities and we're recreating the we'll all over again right now. I think it best that's of analysis. It's the truth not likely gives its it's it's, it's not it's that that will happen in the sixties. Again, it's sort of at the king example is not that I disagree with the particular. things. You're saying happen, I'm saying there's a whole bunch other stuff to happen at the same time, which complicates the story. This is not an

despite an air, I don't know, I'm I'm I'm I'm things in the same respect. So, for example, when we look at an inevitable this my book, nobody would you wash it read away Iraq today that, yet I want to plug it, but it's actually relevant to the topic casualties of America's. Or on the vulnerable, Ferguson, Flint and beyond. As part of its hard work in Ferguson. Is this very thing right? You're right, you, dear migrations, is why flight there's an ultimate not with the suburbanization of poverty in Fergus, because Perkins of suburb right, then you look at place like Chicago you a place like Detroit. Multiple things are happening. It's not just that black people rioted and lost the city report and doom themselves to poverty that it years there you have to look at the shift in the economy itself. You have to look at the flight of factors which aren't. Our response to two two black rebellion of the response to tackle tax tax incentives, to going is to billions is the automobile companies that were making those cities flourish and all packed up and left not because of

a good example Ferguson. They stated it when they left a company say a lot of things that doesn't mean it is why they left they were burning down their factories. No, I understand, I understand what you're saying I'm saying we have to look at again a series of economic policies and the fail of the government to best in those communities in ways that would you don't need the government what we need to what was what was happening. That's why those committees are flourishing me private companies to come in and to have jobs and end to stabilize the committee. The Lamb thing. Black America needs more government and it is amazing to me- and I wrote this in my upcoming book at the commission- that has suffered the most from black from from from government policies want to talk about slavery. That was a government policy. You you to talk about about Jim Crow laws. That was we're policy. One talk about the welfare system. That was a government policy, is now looking to the government to give them more policies. The government has never done anything good for block America right enough. Anything as having different work. America's happened because a private companies in view That is the thinking chemical hobbyhorse, of course, inflationary message prognosis, but that was getting rid of government policy

smoking, letting it what it what it really wasn't new policy. If you talk about what was wrong with him Our current beginning is that America wasn't obey or honouring its own constitution. All men are Eighty go: all men have the right actually was not honouring its own constitution, they create legislation that went against the constitution, so America was one big hypocritical mess when all this was going on once America actually got rid of all the policies that they created. That went against the constitution, which happened obviously, with allowing women to vote, allowing first black men to vote then allowing black women and all women to vote and getting rid of all that crop. Then America became what it was supposed to e when they actually enshrined the constitution. So why not, then imagine the government as having the capacity to expand on that promise right to expand on that promise of life. Liberty, pursuit of happiness of all people been created equal through proper legislation, for example, I mean you would say you would agree. The marial plan certainly helped. You know certainly help the White middle class after world war. Two I mean it create economic incentive. It invested in them to say well now for black folk,

We don't need that. We need less government. No, we need the of the investment, so you do, no governments don't make money right, I'm, not citizen government make money. How is the government you keep saying government give us on to give us money? What is wrong with that government don't make money job. We people make money right capitalism makes money new jobs, new businesses, new ideas. That was the one thing that the government can do to help Black America is what Trump's doing right now deregulate right, stop with all putting all of these traps and barriers for people, THA have good ideas and that are entrepreneurs. You know to come out and actually say I want to five this business. For example, my cousin who lives in the project want to start a food truck right, great cook, so there was about, and this this is on, their Obama went Two thousand pieces of regulations come him to be able. You go to have this on this on the Certication Serio, the government just messes stuff up. That's the problem right, we don't need. The government does not make one so what you're sayin the Goverment used to invest in black America doesn't make any sense; no, it does because the argument is that we as a nation flourish when we invest, for example, Give you haven't citizens, we not

to create conditions for that's what I mean, I don't mean, invest in sin. We invest in years in robot in nineteen. Fifty I'm saying, invest in the people, in a sense of create equal opportunity and put capital in space and allow for the few. percent of cap. Limply has even so that people can be emigrant deregulate where equal of equal opportunities, which at present is doing now. Remedying I will give you a tax break to that. Incentivize is a private businesses come in and build their businesses in Chicago? We will give you tax breaks it. If you build your hub here in check, that's the government's job and what, if the government says, but youhave to have x number of black people because of historic patterns of discrimination you don't want. You built ain't that right now we're gonna be ok with that. I'm hoping now guess that's that's that regulation talking about! We can't we can ask for racism to combat racism benches. I mean I did just so foolish people keep saying we need to have put us. I don't want quarters I'd, I'm not I'm, not ok with primitive action. All that is racism is always them. Ok, we're

Grayson, because we are smart enough to get into schools- were smart enough to get this cuz. I just met your daughter, she's, pretty smart. I don't think she needs the government to help her out to get into school. She's smart girl, okay, it is a bigotry. It is a soft bigotry of low, which is a phrase that was coined by was coined by HW. when you are saying, is somewhat George: W Bush incorrect you. When you are, we someone we do the You can get in school what you are saying to a black person: you're, not smart, you get into the school by yours notice, measuring it always what you're saying oh, what this thing is that this apparent discrimination and an intellect access just make. It may be starting put your color when you were you piper school. That's like this! discrimination. It means you didn't get in because YO didn't it the best. If everything were facial, neutral I'd be fine with that yeah, that's what I'm asking for. So that is the answer. No racism or discrimination if it were facial neutral, but but underneath it were contextually neutral, I'd be fine with them. Everybody has the same chance, for example, if all of us in this room right there's a governess empty talk, I'm she's very tossed. It does

seven feet tall and we try out for the NBA together. He is a better shot than I do yeah because he's seven feet tall, correct and you might be better. a basketball- that's quite right could have been by the same thing right we it's! The rules are public. The goals are clear to Plainfield level. The referees are honest right. I'm through with that problem is when it comes to life, doesn't work that way. How does not work that way to explain to me how affirmative action does it worked out of our markets being is actually there is committed in favour up to get inside. You give your aren't you a couple, a couple examples, one them metrics we use to to get people into school, putting the anxiety as it is a terrible predictor of how are you do a polish writes that there's some data that shows that it's somewhat of predictive. Maybe how well you do your first year, but it's not a very good indicator. Whether you'll finish is not good to hear it's, not a good indicator of what your final GPA would be, but we use the sat. It's a terrible metric. The metric also shows that it disproportionatly. Favors middle class people take race out for a second it dis report. It disproportionately benefits or benefits middle class

and so a middle class. Kid, whose justice more justice town to work just as hard. It may even have a saint GPA. What perform as well on the sat I mean, would work asking for as well as a middle class get not because he or she is in his turn but because the metric is broken, and so, if I've been from, say: look I'm just taking people sat scores a facially, neutral metric. I'm saying want just as it is what the problem is it it's not actually necessarily measuring how smart you are. It's me. It's measured! How middle class war did you see what I'm saying not particularly now I dont see how it measures humming a clash. You are because the text itself, as is structured, has questions it has up like. fill in the black points of reference that don't listen measure your ability to to reason, but that's exactly what it does measure measure ability to. No, I an example. If I have in it a vocabulary, for example, I'm trying to think of a good one, the classic almost cliche. Now is the one about the at or it'll.

It'll asks you to complete a logical syllogism. It'll asked you to, eleven logic right to make some kind of interpretation of attacks, and if I don't, and a few of the words that are reference in the text, not becaue. It's it's on my great level. I missed it, not because I'm not smart enough, because this is a sort of fair the normal middle class thing to know, and this is not a fairly normal working class thing to know then I'm not actually measuring my ability to answer the question. What the problem is that if you can't, to the question, though, and then you're put into a school. You know not because you know the answer to the question, because if your skin color, you are likely to drop out of that school, but the data doesn't show, it does show that actually typicly shows I yes, it does, and I'm going to push back on this, because I actually just read this in Thomas Soul's book. It exactly shows. And this is why clear exactly what it shows that black kids when they are mismatched in schools, but because they are accepting affirmative action policies and putting people putting them into schools

They get that they are if you're saying who are mismatched for schools, don't say I'm not, and they actually end up being at the bottom of the classes. It's actually bad for black people, affirmative action as harm Blac, peoplebecause, here's, the problem and I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened so Thomas Soul was an adjunct, professor at Cornell University, and he was teaching and he learned that something like twenty five percent of all of the black, I run academic probation, so he went to go investigate. Why are all the black his academic probation? Well, it turns out all of those black is related based on affirmative action, meaning and meaning said by the way these were the top tier black black kids in America? and actually got into a school? Maybe they want to? U n c instead of going to Cornell, they would be at the top of their class, but because they mismatch, they put him into a class that was slightly higher and they weren't able to compete. Apples. Of everyone in that class they weren't at the bottom. It doesn't. It doesn't help those kids to finish at the bottom of Cornell, rather than finish at the top of another school they could have been at the top of another school. I they just were matching to the

cracking of our city, ambivalence, black xbox disagreeing with their data, but but without intervention. That about- but I am also but it's true, but they're more likely to drop out inefficient. The bottom of the class is, you can just put a kitten into Harvard because their black they're gonna be at that level, but one that's, never been the argument of affirmative action for college admissions and that's not happening there are now these uncommon haven't you that there are no longer any doubt that support in that it hurts black Americans because they dare not their fishing. bottom of classes where they would be finishing at the top if they had just went into schools that they were mean. There's abolutely no way to predict that right. So that's not that's not data! That's that's a that's a huge leap of interpretation to say no, it's not what you mean, there's no way to predict it. How can you predict someone? Would I can't predict you? Can you can assit retro, as you can do a retro? How can you exactly as someone would've been the black kids right and you look at their sat scores and you say if they had actually gotten into this school, which is where they belonged as opposed to putting them in this school because they were black. So

Harvard saying: let's let them in uninformative action action for them, so that somehow resubmission busily that's what I'm saying. What I'm disagreeing with is is is the presumption that that we're taking, in fact, that people are admitted with were wholly unqualified for these. for these admission they are not what I'm, what is on the low the average s? Eighty score of all the other chinese kids, like his equity, not you know get into these schools. That's what would the way college missions works? Is that one of the guards diversity with girls from the action is that the argument is that race should be a factor in the application of the usual minute, because your black, not that we should have this whole set of unqualified people who have like a thousand sats and in sum, and into three point or GPA that sets out the argument. If that were the art, I will be with you, because when there are situations where people are mismatch that dramatically you're right, they dont do it this way. I was never disputing that point. What I'm just

meeting, is the idea. That is that that is it be the framework for how affirmative action worse or how we ve ever wanted it to work within universities. The idea here is it one. We believe the diversities and institutional benefit that we all benefit when schools and more diverse, not just like that, like people, because we get in the harbor but white people frightened by people there. and vice versa right against, Hbcus, no, I'm not against Hbcus. Weird! No, I'm I'm for what you ve been an outcome. Eight species in the same way as I think that that's absolutely you have a quota white people, quota white people that are allowed in blessing. There should be a quarter of white people to make sure that they're getting a good, diverse experience. You just talk about. If there were and then I'm going to touch this other point case, I think it's key it's apples and oranges, but I've, always apples and oranges. When you won't talk about equality when it comes to block and nor because wearing are being systematically not a racist society to let them in based on account of their skin. But it is racism, if you don't let them come over there. You know what I'm saying is that There were a history of white people being denied access to Howard or more Spellman, then I'd say yes

We absolutely a quota. Why do they deserve to be their right? But the fact is there? Aren't there aren't of what people trying to go, you be okay. If there was a you know, just in all white school, the pipe when allowed to enter that that very few white people enter. Would you be ok with that? what I believe that they were allowed to go, but you just said database: you wait six from his eyes, in which I heard you re. So your argument that you are saying is that the reason that you have these policies is because you think they'd benefit from diversely by having a certain quota. We all the rivers. So then do you think, will why are you here? They BC is worth you were asking me if there were a white school that had very few black people, but the black who were allowed to go yeah, I'm saying they call them Yale. Harvard imprints did that's about point now, but they have. They have quotas that people have quotas. Would we have is willing is they consider race as a factor in admission and I'm saying similarly, yes, Think it's a racist. Now, I'm sick its racist to consider race yeah, so it took that's literally.

The definition of its method of Indiana considering raises another. That is not the division of racism uniformly a decision right based on this color? somebody skin that is racism Oh it's making your ear position. If I'm understand you correctly, is it the even the acknowledgement of consideration of races? Factor in anything is reached. Yes, I think it's everything chimera based, that's true equality and I'm saying no were so race It becomes racist if I am using races affected to discriminate against you, Are you access to believe goes out to do? No actually view that Chinese who, by their suing that's what you're going to the Supreme Court? They are now Did we not allowing chinese people in asian kids who work their asses off and just performed in every other race in America. Sorry they are at the top of the society for reason. Asian Americans are being discriminated against because they want more diverse,

too many Asians at MIT, which you made at Harvard and they're saying you can't come in. We let some black people and even though your test scores our way higher and you ve done more and you ve that's wrong. Let us crimination use committing and Asians and gave her a back people. That's wrong! It's racism! It's it's not discriminatory! Because again, if the only measures for getting into college were JP in as they do so and there were a list of people right, and I said you know what you can't get in, even though your score is higher. You'd have an argument college. What happens? It's not when you apply for college your whole time what they tell you you got to be part of this club. You got to be part of this thing. You got to do and there's a whole thing that we want. We want a well around a student and there are multiple factors in admissions right and the other thing any admissions counselor will tel. You is cause. I would say what, they have exacting numbers in one's blacken ones why there are never too cases that are exactly the same right. There always complicate. Ambitious decisions are always complicated. There always a whole array of things and we make decisions based on fit. We may

decisions based on the well rounded of a person and also what they contribute to our environment right, so so, to that extent the consideration of race or in or or or geographical origin, is not something like I wouldn't want all kids from New York in one school right. So oftentimes kids are relatively similar an end we have noticed. the midwest and someone somewhat from the West Coast. Yea, you might have two points: they're, not relatively similar. That's what I'm saying if, if it was a merit based system, all the top schools would have all Asians and that's why Asians are suing and they have they should win. I hope they win, because it's racist. We should not be saying you overperform and there's too many of you, because Asian Have a better culture and they focus on what they do and we listen. I noted this hopefully do, and then this is the problem is that we don't want any knowledge. The fact, MRS this is the reason why Block America's? Never in my opinion, going to get better until we are able to have a scotch and every culture is different right there are made from cold is going on and you know it Latinos

different agents. Culture is different in who are you talking about okay, so I actually be more specific yeah, so right now, but I've never seen so right. Now, the you know, if you want to talk about in terms of wealth in America, the wealthy, the wealthiest groups are pakistani Taiwanese, not chinese actually- and I think japanese right and growing up in the you know environment, I grew up in a very mixed in a public school system might be one of my best friends with Japanese after school at her house. Her dad was crazy about schoolwork. Emmy was like it didn't happen to me, Our cultures were different. Uniting do not remain somewhat cousins like really a lot of us we're I'm rays my cousins, I'm watching you MIKE my cousins in oak as their minds at work either single mother households because into becoming too babysitters. Wasn't that way her. he was so strict about her work. You know she ended I'm going to to a top school that made sense based on how she's worked her entire life,

to imagine that I didn't end up going to a top school and for me to say it's because of color of my skin or she shouldn't be able to know she worked hard. Her asian culture is different. Jewish Americans have a different culture they also are ones that tend to value school work. A lot harder we need to do better in Black America, I value in schoolwork. I wasn't raised in a household that value school work and I'm not aying AL. I'm not here to pay the broad brush, but I'm saying over overwhelmingly, you know, there's a reason why I were dropping out of high school at a higher rate. Lots of reasons but but nobody we never talked about what we're doing wrong and it is. It is culture, even our we value breaking down education even via our hip, hop our music. Everything we actually value a lack of education. We see that as black culture you gonna ebonic sets us right, I never liberalism of education. That one saying is that your ear, what nobody bonding says, you're breaking down the english language right and then

Surprise very within druids. Ok, it's a dialect of the english language, but it's not proper English right and then we're surprise when seventy five percent of black boys can pass reading exam. And then we want to blame the government rights and facts about raising Caliph where they was his government government something wrong. What are we doing wrong? I have nothing to do with you anything wrong, so you ve hit alive spots and over meet me pick. A few first. Where do I want to go? I don't want to get too far off of this, because I still think you're missing the point of the affirmative action thing which is not just a repeat of the of the early. The literacy started. Reading the drop out stuff right. My argument isn't again the people should be put in schools where there's a mismatch. I agree as professor I can tell you I encounter stood, have encountered. Students were mismatch for the institution for lots of reasons. It's not funny teach someone who's mismatch for the institution, that's the first thing

The second thing, I would say is it's institution. Mismatches happened across the board and there are plenty of people who don't meet the average of the school. It's not just black people, for example, legacies oftentimes, don't meet the match. Athletes often don't meet the match. who else I mean it's legacies, donors and enact. These are three are three key examples. George Bush people said George Bush was down Georgia there's a b which was done his case. It is as if these web lives one standard to be a deviation above the average american right, but has to below what the energy or student did he was just fine. He turned up just fine, you smart enough. He got in here. He did just fine black people are no different right. I would rather give that kind of.

Hook up to use a lack of? Maybe I mean I use the word hookup. I would rather have that type of relationship for a student in poverty and someone who worked hard than someone who's a benefit of legacy and privilege. I'd rather have none. I got you and I hear you what I'm saying is from that point, because no one, no one, is complaining about the athlete no one's complaining about the the you know something about the person who built the building that were standing in you know into at the university we're on top of that, but I dont again what about him? I'm just saying that I think is an important point that we only talk about this in a kind of black people when it's very much and when their very much, not the ones who do the biggest of animals egregious examples of institutional mismatch. The second thing is when we about black people in format again, the goal when we do admissions is to say how can we have a diverse student body because firstly itself as an institutional ass it. So if this as the average-

did one scores. Fourteen hundred and there's a black kid from Compton who, as of one thousand and a three point nine, I might say, dispersant, prowling not a great fit for the school, that diversity being an asset studies, show that that win, win groups ahead or are heterogeneous. We we rather more dynamic increase. We're able to problem solve better that we learn from ah her and then we better prepare for the studies. You sound like one of those leftist leftist on. How do you measure that? How do you measure Harry. I got what's the test to see if diversity, our task Orient problem solving with groups and they ITALY they they didn't with homogenous groups. First and group there are others to arrive at solutions faster if we're all the same, because we to think the same We cannot have the same kind of ways of solving problems, but with interesting is when we're heterogeneous. It takes longer to get there, but we offer more diverse and creative solutions outcome so that you outcome that you know you me

what your goal of the school is. We could have a debate about what you think the outcome should be, because I think that you know there's no such thing as diversities. Just because you look different than me. Does it mean that? diverse. We could be from the exact same neighborhood. It doesn't mean. I agree me. I think what the one thing that students that would benefit the most from and what you call don't have in college campuses, intellectual diversity. So this right here it is of much better used to a college university to Black and we look alike. You know where the color, but you and I are on totally opposite. You know playing fields, and this is a positive conversation people to listen to and to here. This is great. You know Gavison college campuses, but what's a predictor of that right. So if I have people from different racial backgrounds, different class backgrounds, we could say the Supreme Court is diverse, but they all went to Harvard and Yale school for the for the for the majority. Not all is my point right, so I'm not saying the only diversity is racial diversity. I'm not saying only diversity should be gender, diverse everything that these are factors I want. One is if I, if I want to see where all the men had eyes as a test scores. I would think even

women s lay low as it he's going or minutes late law, as it just goes on what gender diversity, but again and all saying that your idea of merit is based on this. conception concedes that the metric itself is correct and you to asking you to consider the data that the essay tee in these other measures are actually good. Predictors of will you do anyway only are denied the essay. The essay tee is not a minute if the golden essay teasing is a measure after aptitude write your your announced, as this was to be like. Ok, there's a hundred, you have to know if you know a hundred of them, you win rights, as this is a person's proper preparedness for college. It actually doesn't pay it. The data shows that it doesn't predict well. How well you'll do in college doesn't make much of GPS is gonna, be, does no correlation between strong correlation between GPA between your rhetorician graduation such so that's one thing: even the idea of meritocracy has be based on something. You know it would be like at seven footer over there if they decided to try us out for basketball. The only thing they try this out for was three pointers right. I might make more three pointers he's seven.

we talk is given the polio, bunk interpreter in an insult. The metric itself made me benefit my skill, set prices that skill set and I'm financing with ever more robust assessment of skills and But what I find is not that we are meeting people who were black people who are far off the mark in terms of admission that people who, already within the zone and whistling let's let race be a factor too. So, yes, I may have an you just pick arbitrator, I may have a thirteen hundred in the white guy may have a thirteen fifty and I may have a three point: and he may have a three point. Nine, for you may say what these numbers are higher out once one again assess the metric, but also there might be value to school, did not do to school at all at people. Why people black people again now that you mention it be soothing

that's it. That's a different countries because their not being denied access to it. So you, I would assume that you strongly disagree with some of the answers that are happening of black people, requesting all black dorms as a safe space and as a solution to them feeling token eyes by the presence of white people on campus two years through the questions sure I do not believe in the diversity of education classrooms of dorms, but if there is a situation where people feel harmed or until now harm they just stay just like the ones I love they. They used the word unsafe, but what actually is going on as they feel token ice, meaning that there are too many white people, so they want their own I've. I think it's ok for people to cars, their own spaces. I you're actually, okay with discrimination, but you prefer to as positive discrimination is ends up being good. In your opinion, as it is, discrimination positive positive segregation along as yours, using segregation, amicable separation, not segregation, is develop. If it's an all black dog

it segregation, but that is a separate Doorn. Who is it that segregation again? Why do you go on asking again Dubois Cousin in University, Pennsylvania Classic How is all black dorm, not segregation, because white people aren't big, do not access to it? No, that's what they're, creating all black door we're old, but again can black people can stay, but again, as a practical matter, white people aren't asking to be in these storms. It's not as if there's a lot of white people said we would love to be in this dorm, but these black people won't. Let us in just like there's not a lot of people saying I would there's no lot of white men saying you know I want to go to plan and they won't. Let me in because the truth is. That is what happens because then what happens? If a white person says I'm not okay with this as they get attacked, can somebody remind me of the campus that Brett Weinstein got chased off of evergreen campus, where they decided it was only black people were going to be allowed in the campus for that day, and one professor who was white said well, I want to stay here and teach my class and they

chased him interwoven with the bat ambition happen. We can. We can agree, but so does the same thing. It is, isn't it a little culture that first off in all black Dormice racist- and this is what this is? My problem is that somehow, we've arrived suddenly suddenly into a place where black Americans are offering the exact same thing that our ancestors to end discrimination, segregation, but we a spill and said, but this is a positive form of discrimination. This is a positive form of segregation because we're choosing it it's wrong just wrong. I mean I don't see how you can't just plainly say and all black dorm is racist. This should be all black all white offset it's racist. It should never exist at all. Okay, you sleep. Where you sleep, you don't like sleeping there. You leave the school. You can decide to go somewhere else, but we don't play that game on college campuses we don't play. You know x, amount of people, quotas are may be allowed to school and needs to be a merit based. I don't care what color you are. Let me see how you perform before me, see in guess, maybe looking at the active leave without knowing call you or I might say: okay, that's he's a little lower, but he's has taken on. He was playing full time, basketball and all that, so I think you'd be a good fit again. Races not need to be.

in flat termination to be made we his race, the only thing that we can't consider so, for example, we should have considered just race Lebron James Brown. James were going into college right now with a lower sat score and a lower GPA near the President of the university and he wants to go to prince and he must be added. The basketball right in his is a little bit lower than ever that we do not like. because there's a white uy who's above him, let him into the school. If he sat, he's not doing well, but he's extraodinary. Basel play an he's good enough to be into school. Losing his numbers are good. You still don't need his race on a piece of paper, determine that no take his race off. Let's yeah, take off race, that's my point, okay look alike with double whisky once they must apply. My point is: if someone had missed ordinary, talented basketball, we liked best what all the time what Luigi blame, but I dont saying that discrimination regardless If you're gonna say we want to make sure we have a healthy makes, you should not beginning or re sure period when you go to school. and what am I going and what I did, but I fully comprehend point. What I'm saying is is that we should consider

in the same way that were willing to have a diverse group of people, and I won't have some few players and I want to have some soccer players and I want to have some. You know some people from Iowa. It's ok, I want some black people, but so is it ok to say that I want jewish people yes to your case with all of it. Yes, we want. There is a long history of excluding jewish people from university, and so we had to create spaces so part of why you have what's the school in New York. It begins with a b. A brand is part of why you have a brand ice is precisely because there has been a denial of. Of jewish people, both professors and students intimation university. So we had to create space for the right answer. gotta Brandeis? Still, my god? That's that's, that's it. That's a young, that's that's it segregated segregated. I say no good for them. That's a beautiful choice and black people can go there now. Well, don't ask go there. Now, Christians and Muslims can go there now. You know, but is largely a profound.

historical, jewish institution, which is great, and what I'm saying similarly, is I'm okay with by folk cabin that I'm okay with carving out spaces for ourselves when we for people He would never be ok that if people did that, if I were at Harvard mean excuse me if I went Howard and there were a group of white people. Who said you know what we're the fifty white kids at Howard and we want to have our own space, who I'm good with that all white dorm at Howard. You think that would go down well, I think such a counterfactual hypothetical because, most like you, don't wanna go to how it does. It will be one that many black people and that's ok, you let me most people who go out you know is one our athletes oftentime for underground regret athletes, because there are divisions. They would be individual bathrobes donating, get the Duke Awake forest awaiting it recruited, but they got no go to Howard right, which is a good school, but not the best basketball, a interesting, interestingly similar to what happens to these black kids, who want to do do for us and I'm okay, hey. What there I don't see why we lay there. Why guy and is naturally call me crazy, but I think discrimination is discrimination no such thing as part of radiation. Now I want to just one issue:

because now we're running out of time- and I want to ask you specifically about- can I ask you a question yeah sure? How did you feel about the date of pain? Oh like what Dave chapels about for six years now I have a thing: you don't worry about it, you treated ass. I was just a little bit about August. When I woke up, I have seen the gateway immediately about it. I said you know I'm not going to be offended by this, because I'm a big believer that we need comedians. I think right now we ve got we ve very suddenly into a politically correct environment where comedians get cancel their said that now everything they say is due borer two sexes, two races to this and that and look comedians are there to further the conversation and they should be offensive to everybody every side. All the time and I've seen Dave Chapelle, be offensive to conservative seem be offensive to liberals and their that space. To me I should be sacred, and so I said you know I'd love to meet him a benefit of my life, but I

defend convene to the death of me to say what they want. They they need to their ground is becoming less and less sacred and they're being canceled. To often that wasn't got, I was, I just didn't know yeah everyone thought I was gonna be upset, but I'm like you know my brand, I'm not oily correct. You know ignore anger. Might be upset but yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen her talk to her about it. You know, and I know I know there were some black men who felt like you know this is too vogar. We can't we can't. You know be talking like that, but this has always been his brand, so if he had switched it up and suddenly became Vogar, then I would be like this was you know just hateful, but he's always I've seen on all the stuff he's always taking risk is always No really got it and set up like that. So I personally believe comedians are in the sacred space, a nation and be attacked, and especially liked in today, when we're we're in cancer culture all the time we need Comedians tells just take rest and say stuff, but I want to ask you see. You know. As a last topic about De L, GB teach you are asked to be W X, Y,

I envy agenda, the agenda on the ferry is agenda. It is genuine. You start, you know, trying to get policies placed into school that allows teacher first, to call your child by different and as as parent they're, not required to tell you, they could be calling your little boy so the all day at school- and they don't have to tell you that's an agenda right when you start trying to systemize it, and you know to make it systemized systemic, it becomes an agent, when you see how Bishop that lobby has become particularly the trans, I've said, like you had me at the be lost me at the tea weren't, have the to the tea, because that's when you started telling people they were bigots, because I don't wanna play the crazy game. So here is my point. I think Trans is a mental disorder. I think there's tons of genes Poria is in mental disorder. There's tons, Ament disorders out there. There are people that walk around down the street and think they are Superman. I think they can, they have powers and they can I know Batman and never wanted to that person attacked. You know I grew up in

a family where one of my uncle's had severe mental disorders and thought he was an like indian from try or something you no kind of got it because he was in solitary. Can I meant for too long and he actually went crazy and present. So I've always been sensitive to people that have mental disorders. But when you start saying a society that you now have to pretend that can is his uncle is an indian you. Don't you know, acknowledge him as Poka Pocahontas and you're a bigot you're. That's that's wrong! Now you're putting the pressure on me to not just be you know, accepting but now to play the crazy game and to say, if you mispronounced and you don't call him chief Pocahontas, then you're a bigot. I don't play that. Game I'm like I'm gonna, live in reality. You can not live in reality. You can say how you feel you can say what you think you see you can pretend say that you think that you know we're on

all right now, but I'm not going to pretend that I see Mars because it makes you more comfortable. So I would ever said, disagree the and it was interesting as there are people use a year you with the old, the g in the B. There are people who, in over thirty years ago, would have made the exact same arguments against you for the elderly, the g and be. They will say that their scientific data that there's that these are people who are or were with mental disorders. There's some Miss Eliza between what they designed with this poster that this kind of gender thing going on there confused about an n n n n n it. You know, I think that we have to do a few things for me. I think the

before the vote, I think you and I agree on- is that we have to accept and we should accept people as they present themselves in the world right like if someone says my pronouns are. If I told you my pronouns, were she her you it just means she in her right now. I wouldn't really Are you ok? but you can call me he now, because now I mean I would call you mark. You know if that was something that made you comfortable. But if I saw you- and I said my name was Jane, would you then call me Jane? If that was your legal name? Yes, bu, you don't come from a legal name yeah, I called by legal name. I dont have issue it that, but I'm not going to pretend I'm not going to change. What do you know these establish pronouns for male and female, because you say you know I mark- and here I am, Writing- would use. I really want to ask you: is I'm genuinely curious about this, but first let me just say: I think that one this isn't a case of someone thinking, there's something that they're not what people are saying is that there is a misalignment between my sex and my gender business,

No, no that point my mind and my body don't match that's a disorder that doesn't make a disorder. It just means that the world may be more diverse than we previously understood to be whether we see it in plants, whether we see it in animals, there's all kinds of complexity. We look in history. I mean even we go back to content of Africa. We look in Asia, there's all kinds of examples of people who have complicated gender performances and complicated understands the gender and how we perform gender can be different, but I guess my question, for you would be why, if someone identifies as particularly you know, someone who you engage with a it's a colleague at work or whomever family member ever if they say, let's I prefer to because she and Her- and I dont- want to be identified by this name. Why not when I just under that, if you change your name, I will but but what why? But one, I'm sure you copy

nicknames dog, I'm sure this you, you grew up in a black neighborhood right. I know you know somebody named peanut right, yeah right, you don't say way, that's not your legal name, your Mama named Joe. No I'm saying a name is one thing, but if you're asking me to change pronouns, I'm not gonna. Do that, because these are established. You're, not you're, asking me now changing this language right. We know why we call female she her girl, woman, Ok, these are, these are words at regulating worms and Russia had meaning. So this is a book right. So could it? Could you call this? This is a book and this is a mug. Could you call this? can call the smug. Yes, you could do that if you want to change it, but boards have meanings right. So now, if I switch it and you say well, smug wants to be called the book. It's a mug just to mark this is this is where we establish promotes the where we established for books, so you're asking me to change the actual.

in other words, to accommodate you, I'm not gonna. Do that, knowing where it is because I always at request, you can now get in trouble, no certain! That's not about premiss gendering, someone, the requests of the trains communities, not that I'm a man, but I want to pretend I'm a woman. The argument, the Tran Committee, which I agree with is no I am a woman and so on, our voting Louis, don't you dare not you're, not a woman. So that's the problems, and this is why I say is now here. You ve asked me that to take on your mental disorder right. So I'm ok with with the fact the argument from my uncle who thought he was he thinks he's a you know native amiss hurricane from a certain tribe is that this is what he thinks he thinks, but he's not. I'm not then to say to me that that argument is valid, because he thinks that no you just because you think somthing doesn't make it real okay, that new agenda. Dinners is exactly by experience and performance and no social contracts up things when you say that words

we have meaning in their socially constructive, meets up and I'll? Tell you why? Because they were, but you say that, but then you'll be when we got. This was always a word of thanks and regard muscle and does not know what it is. Our entire discussion about Black America met nothing, there's no such thing as racial injustice. Soon I did there because it black is it social contract Yeah we live in a social reality, but in that social reality can be both marks. So you either think that the gender wage gap is bs, that feminism is wrong and that racial disparities are all bs, because everything's, a social constructors are gonna, go full postmodernist and say nothing is real and it's all made up or you're going to acknowledge that there are some hard, concrete truths. If there are on car concrete truths you- and I are black okay. That's not going to change because we wake up We decide, you know what say and white and it just how I feel- and today I am chinese. None of you- and I are black. Ok, we are acknowledge, is backing worsened, Like you, I am a woman. You are a man. Ok, now want to wake U Toronto MA. You want to say you're a woman and we want to play the crazy game. We can do that. So then say all

society now to pretend that it was all social that wasn't. You were born a male. I was born a theme That said, we are black. Ok, it's a color. The black is, It's a word that we use in a sex female is a word that we use. That has a meaning. It means you are. You are born with a vagina. You can have children, you have a uterus when you are it mail you are born with a penis you can. You can get a woman pregnant these Words have real meanings. We cannot suddenly in deciding where there are no truth so soon to acknowledge a social construct does not mean that we ignore biology and it doesn't. It mean that we don't have and then get pregnant depends. I know I know his depend on our low transmit that can get Britain that that means that a woman only One second particular argument: that's an argument. It's proving my thing. There is a truth, a concrete truth. You have to be born they uterus to have a baby. Only women can get pregnant. The fact we've arrived in a society right, that's the part of disagree with it. That's the part of disagree. Nothing disagree that these are facts, so you can say that this person, who is pregnant, identifies as a man that person

was born a woman. I can tell you that every single time, because only women can have sex, because there are concrete truths about life forbid. It is that they cannot get em. You can have a baby's pardon and that that is a hard truth about life. You cannot make that back all way, because you want to call me somebody who has a beer and dress like you do to woman all if its pregnant taken takes out what it is, a woman so I give you let's go back to social contracting cause. It'll answer thing, you just said: I'm ignoring what you say. I want to tie it together. So the idea of my point was, a social construct. Doesnt ignore physical realities right social the social contract is about how we as a society, make sense of those physical realities right. So, for example, you said we're black sure right, I'm trying to think of you pick a light. Skin black person right, they're, black right, we'd, agree on that. Now, let's go to Dominican Republic. Let's go to PR. Let's go to Puerto Rico: let's go to George

Let's go to Iraq: let's go to Sudan, let's go to Ghana right and each of them, and let's go to South Africa, I'm picking these plays very specially because they have different racial logic and racial paradigms and what it means to be black here. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's a universal blackness right that in dominican There might be five different, other racial categories right in there, my skin blackfoot here who, when they to kinda get ready to get seen as white right, because of how we socially constructed that mean my biology change. Does me my physical I will change, but how society engages this stuff is what makes it a social contract. So. Similarly, when it comes so I'm not ignoring the realities of race sought with race and racism in America and then we'll take it back to the gender thing when it comes to recent racism in America, its yes, but logically, we're all the same right, black people. Why people there's an infinitesimal difference between a black person in a white person in terms of our genetics rate it this is the superficial stuff.

But I bet doesn't bid that that's a biological reality right. It's a biological fat right, just like is biologically true as leaving bore the peers the truth did, but the idea that their social meanings attached to that blackness that make people fear me that make people think that the dispute that Life is worth more because their wider, whatever those are social, meaning that are arbitrary, different. So so to acknowledge social constructs doesn't mean you ignore biological realities that you just did that when you said that men could give birth. So, similarly, what I'm saying is is that I am not denying the biological reality of male of other genitalia were signed at at birth and what we can do with those body parts, I'm not denying that that's a biological again the social meaning I'm attaching to it is what I'm saying is more competent, but it's not ok. Can men give birth? Sometimes my demands will end the answer. That is, that is crazy, and this is a big.

Can I hope that this is crazy. We cannot allow this to happen. You and say that there is already a women's ability get burned. I'm not saying it's: only women can get birth is factually true statement. Only women give birth. There there's only one type of human being when we get viruses and vaginas gets and invite only when we get what you men and that that is where I think we are passenger. What I'm saying is I'm not disputing the fact that certain body parts eel certain kinds of possibility, sprite. What I'm disagreeing with is. idea of that. That is the measure of whether or not you are a man or woman into an inside. Ok, it is now come to a point where, if you say that only when making it birth, you are called they bigot. That is crazy. That's knots If you say, like J K Rolling day when she got cancelled by the Harry Potter cast at only women can menstruating. Ok, can men get their period? Can u K you have my audience: can men get their period? Sumter? Ok, churches, it's under some transmit. Again and again, I think

ass, interesting questions. I think it's gonna have intellectual debate, but I dont think we ever want to enter a space where we deny the humanity and I'm not saying you are, but to deny the humanity or the experiences of other people. Like I said I was totally okay with trends, and so it became a demand. What you are denying is my ability to be an intelligent human being right. You're Your denying my ability to talk about science, in biology in a meaningful way. You are now making your existence is actually infringing on mine, okay, and because, when you make it a requirement now that I have to pretend that men can give birth and men can ministry and there needs to be tampons, the ACLU is fighting for in males bit and male restaurants If I don't see the region, the importance that that I'm a bigot I'm some of

in a way for them to you. If you want to run around- and you wonder where address- and you want to call yourself tiffany- and you want to put to you a halo women, you can't you if you want, I don't need to know your name. We're areas may is mainly to meet you, I'm going to hear him say idle, believe your name is happening in a person of up to me in there and addressing us in a skirt, and they say my name symphony. Ok, cool Tiffany call right, but when it becomes there is a big it because she won't acknowledge that you know Tiffany. Tiffany the man got her period and can have a baby, I'm not playing that game, I will never tomorrow, and I've decided that or a year from now Suddenly, I have I have reimagined my identity and I have I have. I have recognized and affirm my identity as a trans woman. and I no longer want to identify, as marker one identify a few examples. Tiffany you, you wouldn't like books as mark your markets, the communists.

I call you took me, but I'm not going to call you she in her, because that has real meaning and not going to play the way compromise by his wife, and I understand why my reality, you are now saying you change from your reality and now I have to pretend that words have no meaning and they do have meanings right. So I'm not gonna. Do that, I'm not going to call you hear height of how you do and if you have a good data. I'm not gonna. Then say she. She I'm not doing that, and if people cannot, if the demand misgender me either what I'll just call you to but and if they say we're, typically, you don't go back. He just left you'll say she just left I'll, probably slip up. You know once or twice but ultimately stages alone, you unintentionally miss gender, noble intention which, on you, but I don't know- I don't want Tiffany and my bathroom- I don't Tiffany in months and the other bathroom I don't know, I don't care, I don't care, I think it's stupid. I think it's foolish. I think it's dumb, but if you, if that's really, where guys want to go, do it don't care somethng businesses' impact on the on the arm? But I don't want Tiffany on my bathroom and are you okay with gender neutral bathrooms? That's how most bathrooms are there? It's all go on the plane.

They're all gender neutral, more got together that one in the bathroom fine, but it does meeting, was that women can public spaces. They read restaurant, he I hate, but they say gender neutral because usually they just say bathroom like it, you don't need to say to a neutral just as bathroom. We all understood that that just seems to be an extra step, a virtue signalling to say gender neutral You just put bathroom. Everyone knows that means, but a lot of times in places like, for example, in our university, we have male bathrooms. We have female bathrooms and we have gender neural baths. You can just pu bathroom. Everyone knows what it means put wc. Everyone knows what it means he means anybody can go here. That's always been that waste to the beginning of time and then suddenly the trends wanted it to say gender neutral and sudden. We had to pu gender neutral. So this I find it actually be the right in this case, and I'm not plain do they say a neutral I'm with bathroom I'm with you, I mean Grandmom's house yeah thanks in writing that no intelligent, I'm with you, but I often find that it's the it's the it's the anti Trans community. That's gonna got gender

about million, whereas it sets the Maid barons, man by man and woman. I retorted now they ve always been just bathrooms, usually at small, please just bathrooms. It's fine, but like it's the I can't stand the preamble to the constitution. Any person can go here, we don't care whether you will not think about it. That's a good definition of annoying. It's the constitutionally shut up without its about affirming peoples. I don't need your of ideally affirmed in the bathroom sign. If you now have you been denied access to it, just as now throw lose consciousness, a preference system underprivileged, an early highs is up with these made up turn Sis Jen their privilege. It's just a bathroom our words are made up of these actions that were it's going to know. One thing is: if you ve been again, if you ve been Catholic, denied access to something affirming that you can come here matters because doesn't mean. Does a long history proves just sprite bathroom right and I'm saying just right. Bathroom historically has still excluded people who it was, who are visibly gender, not conforming. They were there.

if you go throughout history, young people kicked out of restaurants, maybe not sit in the restaurant with much less. You lose the bathroom because they their gender, doesn't seem to line up with what we society's expectations and so saying. can come here too is assessed, and of saying we welcome you just like saying just when you see like gum an ally NL I sign or or rainbow flag on restaurant it's not saying that anyone who doesn't have one means gay people can't come in, but the point is because the places have been so hostile affirm that you can come. Nothing annoys me more than that crop I mean. I tell you. Nothing annoys me more than seeing that crap everywhere, all the time, it's just you know you got to have the black lives matter flag, the LGBT Flagg, to this time. This sentence, it's like dude, since when are people not aloe, just by entry, don't nee you to have eighteen different time like this. When a woman's have artist or internet, not everything local, not up would you will give their merit of Latin America far? Can you help me when we're gay people in America not allowed to buy furniture? You're gonna tell me up with that. It's not specific diverge, but gay people online

saying like it's every store now it's every store right, put a flag, there's a historical narrative, one more get people not allowed to go, go into Mcdonalds as long as there have been Mcdonald'S- and this isn't to Mcdonald. I'm saying that in on the combination of people? What who identifies agenda not conforming that we greens are about big trouble, gay lesbian, such firms, talking specifically remember transform yes, they are often denied access to public spaces like restaurants, like Verger stores, like like hospitals, etc. In part and again. There's plety of that on this is that when they're in public space, they're often criminalized they're, often sex workers office is doing something illicit, even if theyre just walking down the street. So when you recently, in over representation of Trans women, for example, being being stopped in insertion, frist or or apprehended a question. Even if done nothing or presumed to be doing sex work just because they're on a corner like literally, could be crossing the street is because there's an ex tation of who and what they are a social construct. And so yes say, look, you can come here, we want you and we won't be judged. It is a safe haven. Here is entirely reasonable. If I had a university to

yeah, yeah, yeah, you're, you're, arguing earlier, and I walked out It's okay for a university on website, say: hey, we, we value diversity of opinion We want conservatives to write that you might say one Why do I need to say that conservatives are should be anywhere, but you have taken serves a universe of the hostile spaces to too conservative so want to signal to conservative that they will welcome. Here too, I would have to go above and beyond to say that, because they're, not the typically not, and so I would buy your argument- something. Similarly, if a places denying access, historically a country, tiktok, fearful or to transport problems yeah. We got to do something extra to say that maybe we should come up with a flag for conservative people. I think it's white and blue does exist. Fifty stars arches we'll take it ignores, are putting american flag. So we know that somebody you gotta do is get better. I mean I mean whatever. I will write this by saying. I think, This was a very important discussion as yeah. I think it's there needs to be more of them.

we don't have to agree, but we cannot be scared to have a conversation. People benefit from seeing different perspectives black community? We are now all a monolith. I disagree with mark on virtually everything he has said here, but Thank you. I will defend his right to say it to the death of me. I think, We need more diversity of thought and more diversity opinion, and I deeply respect you for coming onto the show and saying what you believe in providing it. Everybody should buy this book. It's called nobody cases of America's. well first you're gonna get two minutes where you got she can pitch whatever you want alone: yeah we're gonna. Do we wrapped up every episode by allowing me to look into the camera around, and you can say what we ve got to say is encouraging like if you wish that you're one message could fall upon the ears of every person, America. What would it be sort of thing right? So are you ready I'm ready on your mark get set world? I give you markleham

Help warehouses, I didn't expect system so nervous. First of all, we're in a desperate and in trying time is more important than this book. and right now we need radical imagination. We need not be prisoner to the moment, wherein we don't need easy solutions. Would only simply so that simple, solutions. We need to suspend all of our disbelief and invest in each other believe in each other and figure out new more amazing, an ambitious dreams and we ve never had before it's you

we can get out of this this this moment of darkness of violence, of pain, of inequality, of injustice, of deep harm. We can't run it from history. We can't escape history, but we can wrestle with it and we can ultimately not be prisoner to it and I'm proud of what's happening in the streets and proud of what's happening around the world and I'm proud to be engage in dialogue. That gets us there. I don't like to plug stuff, but I do think at this moment from this book is actually useful. It's called nobody casualties of America's war on the phone table from Ferguson to Flint. Beyond I wrote this. I wrote this.

Six years ago I came out four years ago to talk about Flint in Baltimore and Ferguson, and all these things I didn't want to talk about what it meant to be killed by police or what it meant to have led in your water. I want to talk about the historical processes they got us there. I want to talk about the conditions underneath that keep us there, but I also want to leave with a sense of hope that again we don't have to be present. At this moment, we will have to be what we once were, that the work can be different and better or more free, fair and more just and more free. Then we could even imagined- and I believe that all of us together can make I was great love. You are ready for that. Look about twenty seconds that that was also well. Thank you, watching the latest episode of the kindest Owen show. I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation as much as I did as many of you.

I already know Prager: U is a five hundred and one c three nonprofit organization, which means we need your help to keep all of our content free to the public. Please consider making a tax deductible donation today. I would really appreciate your support.