This package to supported by HBO Max presenting the staircase, a new limited SIRI starring call in Firth, Antonia Colette inspired a true story. The staircase explores the life of Michael Petersen, his sprawling North Carolina family and the suspicious death of his wife carefully. The cast also includes Michael Stool barred with Juliet Benesch and Parker Posey. This Her case is now streaming on HBO Max, listen. the companion pie cast on HBO Max or wherever you get your PA guest issue. Like my tie it Irina warrior time good Ivan I have, for job now so, which is why haven't heard from you in a while. We will hear my lab there what's going on, I'm hosting the daily. So I'm I'm one of the hosts regulation actually cool. Thank you. Thank you, the gray and I'm trying

to take a look at a couple of different states in really just like talk to folks. At the pro life movement in those places and just sort of see where people's heads are right now? You know what they're thinking, what their, what they're talking about, what they're doing? Ok great so make it first one should, when we do so, for me before we even start. I d yourself tell me your name and you're title and your age. If you don't mind show We're gonna doc is primarily about how right to life are state headquarters, borrow Howard. located in Columbus, Ohio, forty eight years old twenty two year, practicing attorney and get off there. It is. So tell me MIKE, where You were when you hear heard the news of this leak, so full transparency. I was sitting on my back patio.

my children jump on the trap line when I received a call from the Senate President for the State of Ohio, I forgive me if I heard the news and at first I thought it was a joke and a prank of course, and then I I I asked him to send me verification immediately sweet my world turned upside down upon them and immediately the news just started castigating and boiling and boiling over, my convicts guarded exploded blocked it Well, what about twenty minutes? Not about me? despite being able to have a partnership to watch history being change you know it's you, I'm speechless. When I go out, I just want to I'm expecting to wake up and realize the dreamer audits reality. Now It can where we see in the draft opinion what the final opinion bloke things could change? I dont believe they well that they could. Will you happy

I mean this is this: is Ben your life's work for how many years I've been with a higher rate of Dutch Amida happy as one word, but, as you know, in pure transparency, I was nervous. You know because I said to me we ve been talking. A lot will be about what a post row- oh hi or Post row America would look like, but now we actually have to do it. That's a blockade, don't get me wrong, but it also makes me nervous because an uncharted territory? There's no there's no man well written by someone in the eighty european ideas or some legal scholars writing for been on how to do this better. The other end of the comparative upon us gotta work even harder. to make sure that we have social services and a safety net for women in the brain. The dynamics of the messaging and the strategy completely changed. Now: man, woman,

after we, like the Bible, from the New York Times? I'm Sabrina Tavern see this. the daily before the leaked Supreme Court opinion figures, Both sides of the abortion fight or preparing for the end of row in the days since they ve been scrambling today in the first of two parts We talk to the anti abortion activists about what the fight looks like after You already seem to have one it's Friday, may sixth, the ready ready,

James begin, say: I'm hired Sabrina ever uneasy from the New York Times and Lindsey Gara said here is on the line I SAM. You are even though, in pretty good, pretty good Samuel you, where we can Kenya, where are you right now I am in this big capital. I found a copy which is relatively quiet, and I don't think anyone will disturb her, but you just never know because sometimes people look for quite cubby holes to make their their own phone calls. So so at wherein the last two weeks of the session trying to get a pro life bill passed and try to get it kind of get a constitutional amendment put on the ballot in Missouri. That would make the state constitution abortion neutral We have some increases on that funding, for alternatives to abortion and also there's language to try it again deepening plant parenthood, but in a different way that might be upheld by our states

or does it sounds like you been pretty busy been a busy year, but a great your job is not an untypical year, but just you know just a little bit looked that I'm Samuel, H Lee I go by sham and I am the director of the campaign by Missouri longtime pro life lobbyist in Missouri, and sixty four years old, and how long have you been working on the abortion issue? Sam well, I've been. Is that both the order? years, while forty years in lobbying full time thirty seven years, but I started a beard before that, our time so the forty years lobbying at this they capital- and I just something better. I really enjoy doing, and I love the place. I love the people. I love the work, I'm just really blessed to be able to come to the state capital and do this every year.

So where were you when you ve heard the news of the leaked decision? I was leaving Saint Louis to drive to city about two hours away. We had a confirmation of kids at our parish church RAM, Rama Ethan. And had just finished up with that, and I was checking my phone for messages and DA some of my colleagues who are but state legislators. They were tweeting out the political story and it's like whoa. What's this. What's the first thing that went through your head, when you saw that news with the first thing that came to mind, I am still not convinced that the Supreme Court will use this place.

overturn ROE vs Wade. I hope I'm wrong in my analysis, but I'm accidents, it's going to happen so skeptical of, but also happy baby. This is how I'm not going to say the end or the beginning of the end, but maybe this is the transition point that the pro life movement and this country needs to get away from court supervised aboard. Law in return it to the states to decide, but will see sitting. You learn this news right. You do first when you woke up like what I do every morning is due by morning prayer and that's the very first thing a book of Psalms is actually tonight it's an app. I use on my phone and add to my morning. where in got ready in camera, display capital? When you went to this they'd house: what was the mood were, but we're people talking about could

sense that this thing had happened, and they were perfectly documented, like the topic of discussion. Among my circle of lawmakers and and then other lobbyists about what what do you think of questions you know is is should always it is, but one that is the case with one overturn Roma wait. I said, maybe I hope but we'll have to see people were saying well congratulating me and then you know the sort you worked for and things like that, I'm glad for the high five and back for the the thank you EVA for the work that I've done. But as explained to many, we still have more work to do, and I mean the irony is- is because some people think that ROE versus Wade is overturned. There may be less desire to pass a pro life bill so that that's something I have to contend with as well like well, Now we still have work to do even it. Even if Robert is overturned in late June early July, there's still other legislation. We need to pass

interesting. So it's almost like people had kind of thought. Okay, it's done the Google earth so that the awkward I'm contending work so SAM. Let's do a hypothetical little bit here. So here's a row is overturned, say Supreme Court decision comes out last day of June ten, I am by two p m, its outlawed in the state of Missouri, What does that mean for you in for your organization I mean, are you finished? Is your work done? That's it, oh, not at all, not really, because there will be attempts to undo that either by pro choice. Legislators in the next legislative session, which would

which would begin in January, or there might be a an initiative petition to pass a right to abortion in in state statute or even a an attempt at constitutional amendment, and also we just have so many women, you are now leaving the state for their abortions. How do you reach out to them- and this just concerns me you more than anything there are women who are who are either going out of state their ordering abortion pills through offshore companies from India, and are you know our laws are designed them. Then I worked hard to make sure that their designed, so that there is never going to be a prosecution and will not be a prosecution of a woman for procuring an abortion or buying abortion pills on the internet or anything like that. The doctor, that's a different story, someone who facilitate that that's that's different. We will build this year. That makes it a felony

I love telling you to either import or procure or administer abortion pills unlawfully in the state of Missouri, but that's just part of the story. How do we deal with women who leave the state to have abortions? You know primarily in Kansas and Illinois. How do we reach those women and provide the alternatives that they may not be aware, are available to them, and that's actually used is the challenge. The number Women have been going to Kansas, have actually having increased slightly The number twenty Illinois have just increased astronomically. So it's that's. That's the challenge that we face and have you: how do you crabs legislation that deals with that? worried that if row is eventually overturned that it might, actually just defeat. The movement altogether, that people will just kind of go on other things I mean that would be the end right. I mean it.

How do you see what might happen? yup. That could happen, and I think that's just looking at the social movements, but there is a core group of pro lifers and people involved in pro life who are going to stay in the odd candidates are still going to be running on this issue. Does it worry meat? Yes, but I I it worried me to the point where I can't function or or others can't function. He just deal with it as it comes up, but I think yes, if the possibility is there, possibility that that there's a backlash absolutely but we're better off, not having the Supreme Court and the courts deciding what abortion policy should be, but leaving it up to legislative bodies and the political process. I think that's that far better alternative than what we did What do you wonder for close to fifty years now, SAM, I'm just gonna, ask you to reflect back to when

started in the movement in this in the seventies and compare that too now mean how we you describe what it was like to be in the movement back then, and the extent which you were winning or not, winning and and and how that feeling compares to today. You know it will

The feeling out of an obligation out of a collie remains: it's never changed for GOSH, since nineteen. Seventy eight, when I first got involved, I will say, what's different- is that it's not as simple as we thought back? Then it's gone. It's I. I will say that one of the biggest regrets is not something that the pro life movement caused, but one of the biggest regrets is the is the partisan divide. When I first got involved, there were lots of demo match who are pro life, and now it's that's completely changed and die. The pro life movement will not be sustained

in the long run, unless we have influence in both political parties, and I dont know how to get there and the Democratic Party has to be done and until we do, this is not going to it's. Gonna go back and forth, depending on whose president for governor, at a particular time period, to issues what executive orders, so that certainly has changed where there is a great divide. I think it also that that, as put a size as abortion has been abolished. Remember that even more so in that works against the protest movement, it were seen primarily as a tool armed of the Republican Party. That makes it harder for us to do our job, and you know I I I still enjoy the work as much as I ever have and that I still feel called to do it.

Which is more challenging and it's going to have to be a younger generation which is going to have to rethink what the pro life movement has done and have come up with. Maybe different solutions are better solutions in some kind, nobody's gonna get. You ought to do that, but I bet you all right now. I believe in what way give back, and then it would bitter trying where I was so. I would cooking dinner for my family making for heat. I add I just checked my phone headed by blowing on Adam I would like why way? Oh my god plague is a real like they are ready to. My mom was kind enough to take over dinner. For me, while I was able to catch up on the new and at first sight to be, I was indeed believe- and

A part of me why I dont even old, celebrating the right word by a pardon me what wow like we worked so hard for them. I've worked so hard for them, but a part of me like I'm, also clarified. terrified. Why because out of woman that needed her help before and will need our help post throw our work is not over. Our work is far from over, Our work is really honestly just beginning My name is John.

with an eye on the national Communications director for Democrats for life of America. I am twenty six years old and I like to say that my pro life journey technically again on March seventeen. Ninety ninety six, when I was adopted from China, I was adopted because of the one child policy Now who may real parents? I don't even know really when my real birthday is, but one day you know that I'm here I'm alive and someone somewhere to life for aid. I am here for a reason I remember about adoption, one of the aspects in the pro movement- and it made me think about my own story, and I I understand and I'm learning, that kind of one child policy-

not Roby Bade. I get that. There are two different things, but it was to me, I followed, add an ill regarding the right to life, but that that the core issue that look when I started to understand that value and dignity of every human life and every person. I remember when I would. That might happen. All I learned Life begins at conception, and for me I you know I took it as a a okay, wow, okay, so business. You know this is the church teaching. I understand that, but then I began to understand it

not even a philosophical question. It's is not even a religious question. Science help us then, and it was actually not entirely. I gave a year twenty twenty when I had my eyes open. You know, after George Floyd. After all this injustice and I remember my friends, the algae teacher. I remember him telling me in twenty twenty, when I felt so conflicted about the election, and I had no,

I always felt like I had to choose between all of these social justice issues. I had to look at rain. I had the look at economic equality. I had to look at climate change with the wildfires with everything that was everything that we're dividing our nation, and I remember him telling me jack that we're not respecting life before birth. We can't be pride that we're not respecting an after birth, so it struck me well well, wow wow, abortion is a social, is the social justice issue. It, opened my eye, I realise that if we respect the way when it began, when we respect the lights in the womb,

and I can just imagine- I can only imagine the transformation that would occur with all of these other issues. It just it made sense to me, and while we really do need to mean we need to be pro life with the whole wife and we have to remember who had been affected yeah I used to oddly see abortion as like, very like, yet no like That's just now and not really understanding. Why, men are going through in these moment and that needs coldly needs to be understood. I feel like from both sides at not always black and white and the woman who the thrill going to the most vulnerable moment. Is it not thinking at black and white either.

do you understand why someone would choose that to the abortion yeah and here and not thing like I'm learning about the language of like shooting abortion, We need to change the language and might even I would. I have myself think they would like. Oh no Jackleg there, quietly other way to say it that a lot of the time the woman feel like there is no other option that that they that they aren't choosing really feel like that, there is no other option. To allow for the possibility that they could see. it is an option that they would want, and I you know, and it's such a it's such a sensitive and personal experience, and it it itches. So it's it's hard. It's hard, yeah hm HM

I really enjoyed the congregation and I would like we're. Ok, by the morning and had got that import. Could they re on it real? that happened when we're like real life combination, no the main thing. None I'll we'll be right back. Facebook connects people, and they know meaningful connection can only happen on safe, secure platforms. That's why they have invested sixteen billion dollars in safety over six years, the impact they have quadrupled there.

safety and security teams and addressed millions of pieces of harmful content and removed. One point, seven billion fake accounts over the last few months learning about how they protect their communities, are mine and the work ahead at about dot, F, b dot com, slash taking action, I must Mitchell I'm a producer on the daily Our episodes require a good amount of planning. But Those days when something really big happens in the news, our team decides to drop everything we get on the phone calling reporters all over the New York Times. Newsroom too, Stand was happening we put together in episode on the span of eighteen hours or less so that we can posted six, a m and you can wake up and A better understanding of the moment, the only reason were able to be so responsive is because

the dozens of incredible people behind this show, and the only reason we have dozens of incredible people behind the show is thanks to the support. Scribe burst the New York Times. So if you The daily and want to support what we do every day. It's an easy way to do that, striving to the New York Times just go and why times, dot, com, slash subscribe. Do I believe the pro life movement is winning I believe the programme, women, a hundred percent cent winning across the board. My name's Brian Westbrook Executive Director coalition life- I am in fact thirty seven,

in the years all they have six children and a beautiful wife at home. We've been married for an amazing fifteen years. Almost sixteen and I've been doing pro life work and we started, it nine so about thirteen years. O'Brien. Let's start with. Where were you when you heard about this leak from the Supreme Court in this draft decision? What what? Where were you at that exact moment? Gush gosh, I quite frankly I was distracted from I should be doing, which is putting the kids the bag. because it came in, I think later. In the day I was born raising some news articles and sure enough. This one popped up inside dumped it into our staff chat and then it just blew up with always happens here? Has anyone actually seen the actual document and not to give many travel, but we

rarely trust a media sources. No offense taken by no. We want to do our own fact, Jackie in it. Did you think Brian? When you saw that I mean what went through your head. The very first thought went, to my hand, is at someone's gonna lose their job and what is it What does that mean for the integrity of the Supreme Court? So they did. You think that it would potentially be good for the pro life movement mean veto potentially the weak. Maybe, in some ways, kind of seals. The deal like how did you? How did you see the the league at all seals the deal not even the slightest bit so the documents date is. Where attempt here we are in May, and a lot could have changed between February tend enter. Day that we don't know about right We know that as Europeans we change our minds, Human beings, we have a sense of being influence, and so I want to make sure

that we are not never one brain but us. Working diligently, knowing that potentially rovers is weighed- might be overturned, but this document doesn't that one way or another now June, twenty seven. We might get a decision, and at that point there might be a little party that we might hosts by thing prior is gonna, be choosing well Brian? Could you crystal? while it would be a little bit for a second, I mean, obviously your right. This is a draft. It was a leak in a people. Or have their own minds could. This could be fluid. It could change, but is also a fairly significant hint of what might actually be coming right. I don't think we can completely ignore it and say it's nothing In your mind, kind of asking your mind forward to the end of June. In the event that actually Supreme Court does strike down row-

You don't. How does that make you feel? I mean what what comes to mind when you imagine that scenario, so if, in fact, rovers it is our returned and the DAS case comes down on June, twenty. Seventh, I really just means that the so called pro life or pro. Worse in battle is then distributed over fifty states and really what it means that our job just got harder, and so our viewpoint is that We need to continue growing in Missouri, but that strategy needs to be augmented. And we know that a lot of women are now exiting the state, the goat They all know either going to Kansas they're going to other places, and recently, we we went up to a suburb of Chicago, called Flossmoor

has have wore counselling up there, and so, whenever we go to a sidewalk to an abortion Sylvie it's always armed with resources and help for those women and they were looking at the other, sixteen abortion facilities in the Chicago region, and how can we staff all of those all the time, and then look at the least back in October Seven hundred eighty eight abortion, so these around the country- and so If we have the funding and staffing we would be at seven hundred and eighty eight abortion to sell this today and brain What is that look like in front of you right now, I'm in who is doing it. It certainly our group, of course you're doing that, but the groups I am in collapse nation wealth are leaders of pregnancy centres for the most part. these pregnancy sinners. I think there were looking about three to five years. They looking at twenty five actual pregnancy centres at Illinois night, but we must,

outnumber the number of abortion facilities at least three to one, if not five to one and so in Missouri we number. The abortion so the seventy five to one, so our seventy I promise you centres to their one abortion Sylvie. and so we need to be doing that and every single state across the entire nation I- things the pearl. I've movement is stronger today than it ever has been an eye not believe the dogs case is gonna, make much of a change there in fact, I think you're only energized prologue movements and make stronger even still So there is some plan to have a party in stopping you go home. sit on our laurels. In fact, there is a

very varied strategic plan behind the scenes. If, in fact, Robert Wade is overturned, which really then, as high pension and everyone else in the role of women is seen as actually just makes it more difficult, because our job just got harder. because we need to serve all of these women at the local level, also fight each one of these bad does separately and all fifty different states. Hmm, hmm the. my name's on your baker and on twenty seven I live in Jackson, Missis, and I am married, I have to Little boys want us three one is one year old and my when you're old has multiple disabilities and organisation.

Work with now. Is decision be Anthony List Education Fund which expand across many services, though? What this means is not as explicitly pro wife centre. But also groups that just system along the way, whether that be a prenatal, chiropractor or lactation rotation, housing, addiction recovery? Basically anything and everything that cannot affect a woman who is Gardner Parenting and try to find resources and, though, and those worlds. together, so I got involved at fifteen your goal. Often you hear people say I grew up in a home where we were just pro life from the began. Many women in my family, I haven't hispanic family- have experienced abortion. Not all of them are on the same page about what they think abortion policy should be, but this

came upon me and I think even my family members who find themselves pro choice, are appreciative of the site of the movement that I've been able to expose them to, which is yet in and caring meeting needs some interesting, but I want to go back to when you were fifteen, because I guess in my mind I'm thinking. Why would a fifteen year old git, so in this. You know out you, you could be. I dunno going to them all playing video games being a fifty year old like why such a serious topic for you at that age. I bring me back to that moment, one Mississippi some of the highest, unplanned pregnant. You read some of the highest team pregnancy rates, as you probably have heard before, and I did have peers who had become pregnant, or who had considered abortion or adoption or appearance at young. I had seen it myself and I recall a friendly Out to me, I believe when I was fifteen, and she was sixteen

why she called me I d really know. You call that divine providence. You could just call it that poor we had, but I needed to know where to send her, and so when this came across my you'd say my name. but at fifteen. So in plain view for me, I knew ok gonna keep happening under the need to know where to send people and I'm sure they will connect with a student group and a church. They helped her with child care that people supply me with items to drive down to give her and story like that have sprung up time after time all across our states. You mentioned earlier that this question kept popping up. I mean we're. There are a lot of young women in your life girls in your life in school, who this happen to? Yes, it is we in college many many women, but I went to school, or found are created on campus club would come

we had a baby shower for student parents, and would he be state that burst of fifteen you compare and then the next year double to thirty student parents, Do you have a memory on you of any one? You were working with during times who was struggling with that choice of whether to have an abortion was that did that ever come up for you, yeah I had a very good friend to this who barely new in high school, who reached out to me because she had seen me posting on social media about if you ever need support or resources to reach out and cheat took the book, part of an entire month to make her decision, because she knew pregnant pretty early on. She had a big window to obtain abortion and shit really was grappling with her own decision and, of course, want her to make her own decision and tell me what

He knew I want to serve her in a way that she wants to be served and really she wanted, parent, her child, but she was worried about a number of things like well, my parents except me, this child was not going to be just white where they're gonna be racial tensions around the fact that her child was mixed up. And that's something she had to confront within her own family and wish you gonna habit. She needed actually or where were you? Gonna live until the things we had to walk through together and I think it completely Annabelle, to be afraid and EVA scenarios you wanted her to make her own decision, but would it have been hard to support her if that decision was abortion? I would have not driven her too. Or should I would have not given her information to

an abortion, but often times women need support emotionally after they make that choice, and so I will be able to point her towards professionals who can help her peace, how the maybe complex, emotion, she's having and she and parenting her child. Who is it beautiful little boy. To this day she went to marry a man who has become dad that little boy and she had to more chilled and started her own business and she said all the time that when she was at least seventeen at the time she saw no future for herself. She thought that apps abortion was the only way for her. If my happiness and I've seen her and help other women in her own seems it. patient later on. did you see your work like? Do you think of yourself as a feminist? I do. I think that feminism is to elevate women and don't believe. The vision of feminism includes

moving the reproductive quality. Other woman, I believe that society needs to take women for all that they are and not treat their fertility like a least on you. Do you feel embraced as a feminist or do you feel like you? Have them directed by other feminists. I know there are times where the Palais summit, friends of mine have been, for instance, is invited to the women's mark I know that in college winner that I was writing for a priori feminist publication. I had a professor say: will that of carbon? Seymour on it. So I I understand that their rejection involved, but I'm fully embrace the communities that I want an embrace from it? oh, I alternately don't feel rejected Where were you on your? When you heard the news about the leak of the draft from the Supreme Court, I was actually nursing my baby. Just today, my family, I

allowed them. My had been dead, we just overturn row and he wasn't prepared for that question What do you mean by that? And so I pulled up the article from voting beforehand and we just Everyone was I'm sure As in your world with texting, calling each other's trying to find out if this was legitimate What it means has happened before them. I don't feel it the time yet to make toasts, but I feel hopeful. So. I think that's where I have to reside until we have more information right, you're, referring to fact that it's just a draft the esa and

I think time and time again, you know different challenges have come to the Supreme Court and I'm being in Mississippi, knowing that the challenges come from our own state. I think Mississippi sometimes can be the butt of jokes and to be able to set a precedent like this, that that brie all of the state, two been working on the same things that we have is historical. It makes you feel like you're, guaranteeing something that is going to be written about or an assistant incidents recorded for us to understand for years to come. yeah, that in a way your home state that made the history. Yes, I'm really proud. This was built by regular people so to see that opinion reflected in the major core of opinion is really encouraging, because we feel see you feel scene.

on you. Thank you so much for talking to us here, of course, The the. next week on the daily part to the other side of the fight. abortion rights will be right back the

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Here's what you need to know today on Thursday russian forces breached steel plant in the embattled ukrainian Port city of variable, plant is the last hold out of ukrainian forces in a law. large swathes of Ukraine, South and east, Ukrainian soldiers have held the Russians off for weeks, but the battle Intensified in recent days, Some civilians, also in the plant, made it out. Russia's president, Vladimir Putin. believed to be seeking a victory at the miracle plant by May knife, a highly symbolic holiday in Russia commemorating the Soviet Union's triumph over. see Germany and The World Health Organization said that nearly fifteen million more people died during the pandemic than would have in normal times the We chose said many countries have vastly under counted covert victims, for example in Mexico. The death toll was

twice as high as the governments official tally in Egypt. Deaths were twelve times the official tall and in Pakistan The figure was eight times as high the estimates calculated. global panel of experts were seen. as the most reliable gauge of the true impact. Of the pandemic, given the large gaps in global health data? Today's episode was produced by Lindsey, Garrison, Jessica Charm. Michael Simon Johnson, with help from cleared scatter, it was edited by is Oberlin and page cow. It contains. original music by in power. Alisha, BP, tube Rowan, Nina Stow and was engineered by Chris. Would our thinking, it is by June Brandenburg and Ben work of wonderfully tomorrow. we're republishing a two part series about the history of ROE V Wade, the it for the daily

I'm subpoenas have any say, see you on Monday, this pact cast is supported by noon. Numerous: an award winning weight loss, that uses psychology and personal position to help you lose weight and keep it off, unlike other restrictive diets or work programmes. it gives you the knowledge you need to make informed choices that fit you and help you reach your goals, sign up for your trial and get psychology based weight loss, support at noom dot com slashed the daily. That's n, o o m dot com, slash the daily to sign up for your trial