From the New York Times are Michael Barbara. This is the daily. Today the CIA is waging an unusual campaign to make Gina hassle its next leader, despite her polarizing past, why agents there see her most controversial quality as her greatest asked. It's Tuesday me John Factual Ban. Here it's an honor Abbe a pleasure to be here. I realise it is not often that you should now with the New York Times no, its, not one of my preferred activities, Adam Coleman, who is John Better job, Bennett was one of America's top spies. He also was in charge of their National Conniston Service, the spy arm of the CIA. When

President Obama ordered the raid on the some of that long compound and Pakistan in two thousand and eleven, so how unusualness at that summit of Bennet Status, especially in such a clandestine world, sit down and talk to you on the record and whenever my It's something he has rarely. Gun since he left the agency in two thousand and thirteen, in fact, I've tried to contact you that he has not responded. So then, why is he talking to you now, like any goods by John has emission? He wants to get the word out about Gina Hospital who's been nominated. The director of the CIA, and what do we need to know about gene ass? I think it's important to know about you Ass Bull, that she is a highly respected case officer join the CIA and nineteen eighty five

The CIA has been running an aggressive campaign to get the word out about her lying on Twitter NEWS, says giving information. Reporters have been lengthy stories about her and part of this public relations. And pain is getting. Former agency employs people like John Bennett. To talk to reporters. And why would they have to do that or want to do that? Why do they to get out the good word on this sea? I actual. Because there's really only one story that and told about tuna hospitals, history and the CIA, and that story is about her role running a c. I a black site where and how kind that's back was tortured and her role in helping destroy tapes of these torture. To say it, has been seen as a very competent kitchen officer, prior nine eleven. She was the deputy station chief and Ankara Turkey, but the nine eleven? She began working

The CIA is Counter Terrorism centre. It was a little sleep prior to nine eleven, but after nine eleven, it was infused with the agency's best talent and billions of dollars, and the kind of terrorism centre was in fact in charge of waging war against Al Qaeda and interrogating detaining suspects. Secret prisons around the world. What do you know Adam about hassles specific wall in the counter terrorism centre after nine eleven? I know when she joined the shoe, was put in charge of surveillance teams while doing that job see. I asked her to go to Thailand to be what is known as a base chief. She was actually put in charge of this secret prison and Thailand, which is about two hours outside of I thought it was an infamous side. There were two individuals. Brought their one and Al Qaeda Suspect, NAM, opposite beta and another Al Qaeda suspect name

around him on the sharing is debate. Was water boarded eighty three times at this sight? At this sight, the first I'll go to prisoner to be water. Bordered was Abu bade. These enhanced interrogation techniques were designed to break the prisoners. At opposite, beta was to be the guinea pig. Obviously, beta repeatedly water boarded became completely unresponsive with bubbles rising through his open fall mouth. He actually had to re resuscitated. He actually died on the water borne out, but was revived, but was revived correct and after he was warder, boarded and exposed to these harsh interrogation techniques. It's mine

ending the hassle arrived, and she was there for about six weeks, and while she was running this secret prison machinery with water boy three times and also exposed to some of these very harsh techniques. I don't know anybody who joined CIA to run an interrogation centre, Sonata job. We were trained for its, not a job we have experienced. For but it was a job we were asked to do in the moments of greatest uncertainty in anxiety in the aftermath of nine eleven so Gina and others did their duty as it was defined for them at the time. I think like many people in the CIA realised that they needed to take action at an had to be robust and they needed to take the fight to Al Qaeda Thou was the thinking then they could be. Possibly.

Facing another devastating terrorism attack, and they want that to happen. You know I thought that they were certainly unprecedented an extreme measures, but it was an extreme situation and frankly Roosevelt in turned thousands of loyal, japanese Americans? Abraham Lincoln, suspended is corpus? John Adams sign the alien sedition acts american President's when they ve been faced with an extreme threat, have taken extreme actions, which often times in retrospect, were seen as incompatible with our core values. So I think this probably falls in that category. It was an extreme reaction to an extreme event on a personal level is something you would have taken. Part of his is something you would agree. I would have carried out my duties as they were defined at the time, but about what about Erika Confinement Box to war boarding? I think that's where you get over the line,

Why is water boarding the line that for Bennett, and maybe four others cannot or should not be crossed? What is it about waterborne? Well, what a boarding itself simulates drowning so that your actually creating the sensation of drowning of death and that its self under international law is prohibited. So a Bennet is saying is he's conflicted about some of these tactics, at least when it comes to water boarding. Do we know whether hassle similarly conflicted about what she is doing during this post. Nine hundred and eleven one of the mysteries of Haspel is what she thought at the time and what she thinks now has both never spoken publicly about her time in the flash, about her time overseeing what a boarding we don't know from hast ball herself, whether she thinks this is in fact wrong, but then

I talked about that and I would say the fact that they sent said Jasper, given her sound judgment and her balance emotional balance. I think she, if you're gonna, have that type of facility. That's exactly the type of officer you want there, not somebody who is zealot or somebody who has lost their perspective, What it is that were, therefore, I think it's unfair to assume the genus somebody who's an advocate for waterborne mean that was one of the tools that was legally available at that site, but it's not a tool that she invented or advocated. So he saying that hospital was brought there because she's, not somebody who is viewed as embracing the harshest possible tactics after nine eleven to deal with suspected terrorists. I think she's brought their package She wasn't going to. Let things get out of control. Remember that individual who is water bordered under,

Time was only what aborted three times now for him. Each one is an eternity, but the previous individual as a beta was worth aborted. Eighty three times that didn't happen under her watch there, somebody described Job there as clean up and close up, which they did in December two thousand and two after Thailand, she returned- to the counterterrorism, sent our Langley Virginia and she takes up a job as deputy to the chief of operations. Jose regret. Guess who is running the counter terrorism centre that time think highly of her? And what does he do he plucked passport to be his chief of staff while he's running the clandestine service, which is up job. And it's a signal to the rest of the building that hast ball is highly respected and she's gone play,

she's she's gonna move up the ladder after this, so she is promoted after this work in Thailand, it sounds like correct and what does Haswell do, as chief of staff to rigorous well, the most notable thing that has there is draft a memo that Jose Rodriguez sent the CIA station in Bangkok ordering the destruction of these types of people being what aborted to be clear, the memo orders the destruction of tapes of people being water boarded, including at the black side that hast ball herself oversaw correct, but there was approved, with that order. Jose Rodriguez was specifically told by the White House Council Harry admires and by John Reserve, the act in General Council, the CIA do not destroy those tapes who do not destroy those tapes and yet and yet

I thought he had all the legal authority he needed and push the button on that cable and those tapes were destroyed The tapes are no more Jose Rodriguez destroyed them, they would have been devastating had they become public, but he remains unrepented. I am proud of the decisions that I took, including the destruction of the tapes, to protect the people who work for me. I have no regrets yet no qualms. We made some I'll Qaeda terrorists with american blood on their hands on comfortable for a few days, but we did the right thing for the right reasons and the right reason was to protect the homeland. And protect american lives. So, yes, I have no qualms. I can tell you that I fully supported Jose decision, because I thought it was necessary to protect our officers in the

There was no doubt in my mind at some point in time. This material would get into the public domain aggressive reporters again, Goldman would would never have couldn't have, just at the opportunity at trail, you're right on that count end. You know we want to protect our officers, not just from Al Qaeda but from the public perception of what they had been asked to do. It's vanished at genoa, supportive of this initial draft. Yet ever here she was, she drafted the cable, but let us be clear what her role was: GINO is the chief of staff. She wasn't. The commander Gina had no authority to order the destruction of the tapes, nor did she have any authority to counter man hoses decision any more than the chief station who received that cable was in a position to ignore it. So I think Jose has been very clear in every occasion that he and he alone made the d

vision to destroy those tapes. I think most people, this order sounds like the CIA trying to cover up something that they knew perhaps in their heart of hearts was wrong. Destroying tapes as a student of american politics in history almost always feels like the definition of hiding something when the New York Times revealed that in fact these tapes have been destroyed. It was a huge scandal. What was on these tapes and were they destroyed and if so, by whom the tapes were destroyed and after the destruction, one of the big issues is that Congress was not notified. Many members of Congress, mostly Democrats on Friday, were calling for and turning general investigation. What happened? What do you think was on these tapes and why do you think they were destroyed wealth? The suspicion, of course, is that the so called enhanced interrogation techniques are depicted in those tapes, and so that's very significant, both because of what it means about the legality of the underlying conduct

depicted on the tapes and also the reliability of the information, the kings, the result of those who care geisha and the real questions about whether laws had been broken. In fact under President Obama, that our prosecutors looked at whether a crime has been committed, and I am certain that federal prosecutors interviewed hospital about her role in this and her actions

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a black mark on hassles record inside the CIA? No, in fact, for career really took off and been in, and I talked about that. The people who took on the hardest jobs at the most critical moments were widely respected. They weren't seeing his tainted. I didn't you not just Gina haspel people's careers were certainly not damaged by having taken part in our most aggressive program, because those were the priorities of the president at the time and of the agency, and we put some of our very best officers into those programs cuz. If it's your most Britain priority. You want your best people working for the fact that hospital and others worked on the torture programme. It's like didn't at all, prevent them from rising through the ranks and actually boosted them, especially ass, correct once Trump wins the election and becomes press.

And she's, probably name deputy director of the CIA, which, in its own right, is an extraordinary job of agency and she's at the highest levels of power in the United States. Governments, a big job, and then present in tromp decided you wanna MIKE Pontio, then director of the CIA, to become the next secretary of state and now suddenly she's nominated to be the C. I a director so now that how Nor is the nominee How're lawmakers thinking about these experiences that we ve been talking. The water boarding at the black site in Thailand and the destruction of the tapes documenting this kind of interrogation. Now that she's up for this far bigger job as these lawmakers prepare for confirmation hearing on Wednesday, ass boys gonna face a tough confirmation hearing, in particular from democratic senators and some republican ones as well, and she knows it and they know it

and this is what precipitated a crisis on Friday when hast but went to the White House and basically said look. I don't want to put myself through there and the CIA, through the Essen and damage both of our reputations you're not committed to standing behind me, and she had second thoughts and she offered to pull out of this and she thought about it, and I think by Friday night the crisis had been resolved she said. Ok, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna to go forward with us. In fact, just today on Monday, she was spotted on the hill walking confidently meeting with senators, so the government is on track what's at stake. From the point of view, these lawmakers we're gonna, be sitting across from hospital and asking her these questions for them, or what is the point of this hearing I think for some senators, it simply about electoral politics. Some lawmakers want to send a message to their constituents that this behaviour was okay and we support

and maybe their constituents from actual believe that torture works or this programme was effective and then there are other senator, certainly the senator from California Diane finds then who's running for reelection. This is her legacy. She actually led the investigation into other the bad stuff that happened during this programme. For others. I think they have beer concerns such as what message and they want to send to the rest of the world. Are we gonna support and confirm an individual who participated and what many people believe was torture right? What message do we send by confirming hast bow? Is the next director of the CIA? I mean that is the big message and I think our position as the leader of the free world. We set the tone.

And ass, the rest, the work on a reactor that they're going to say. Well, I guess, is that: ok can you imagine, can you imagine these people these animals over in the Middle EAST, that chop off heads sitting around talking and seeing that we're having a hard problem with waterborne? We should go forward aborting. I wish you good tougher. They asked me what do you think about what Body must have dropped. By said, I love it. I love this guy and I said the only thing is we should make it much tougher than waterborne fuelling the critical question at hotspots. Confirmation hearings will be whether, as the top official dossier

not just by subordinating more, she would be willing to walk the CIA down this path again, because, even though she would be running the CIA, she still answers to one person, and that would be the president, and this president has himself advocated for the most aggressive forms of interrogation. He seems quite comfortable with them, and so would she say yes again now Bennet says she wouldn't leave, agency down that path again, if asked to, I think she would certainly be the type of director who would not be afraid to tell the president. This is wrong and it's not smart and we're not doing it now. They might have a new director the next day, but I think she would certainly be prepared to pay the price to do what's right, so abandoned it. Saying is that if President Trump or to ask her to do this. That the present might be very disappointed by her answer, then that she would say no based on the lessons of this era. That's right

our would opener up to some pretty severe questioning about whether she thought it was wrong and if she thought it was wrong, why did she go through it in getting right if it was ok once when she had a very large role and could have stopped it Should we believe that you won't do it again when she's the head of the entire yet- and I think she's, probably enough to answer that question and various forms of many times when she faces some pretty tough and you think that one of the reasons why John Bennet, this top spy, who talks to no one said yes to your interview- was to deliver this very message that hospital,

would be a check on the president that she would say no to anything resembling torture yeah, I think Bennett and others who have spoken to me about half bowl. They believe that she would be a check on an erratic president right, and I think they want the american public to know that she's, a safe bet he's a safe bet in a chaotic time. What better than others would say is she knows not the cross. That line you get chalk on your cleats, but you don't go over the lawn and I think, Bennett and others believe that she will guide the agency through this very cab, period in american history. Is that possibly because she wants cross that lie because she has so much chalk on her points. There is no doubt that hast Bore has learned a few great lessons from being

bogged in the interrogation programme and destroying those tapes and one can assume passport doesn't want to relive those moments. Thank you. Thank you. A few more questions. What makes a good by what makes a good case office to me. One of the real qualities that you need is an ability to deal with the ambiguity because the very gray world it's a world where, in essence, the intact

just find me to mean you're dealing with some very in many cases, unpleasant people or corrupt people or people who, you wouldn't say, wanna, take off thanks giving dinner. That's not always comfortable. So if your person who sees the world in terms of black and white good guys bad guys right wrong and you're, not there's not an ability to deal with moral ambiguity and turned to the greatness of espionage, I think you're gonna have a hard time. Hassles Senate testimony is scheduled for tomorrow morning.

Here is what else you need to know that in a highly anticipated announcement this afternoon, president Tromp is scheduled to declare whether he will pull the? U S out of a historic nuclear deal with around officials. Familiar with the president's thinking. Tell the times he's inclined to scrap the agreement and re impose sanctions on Iraq, despite please from allies, including Britain, Germany and France, who have argued it would be a major diplomatic error and the attorney. General of New York Eric agreement. Resigned on Monday night hours after he was accused of physically abusing for women, The women told the new Yorker that Schneider meant the states chief law enforcement officers and a prominent critic of president trumps choked and slap them,

in a statement. Schneider men disputed the allegations but said they would prevent him from carrying out his job that's it for the daily. I Michael Barbara, see Roma. Do you avoid tough problems and shy away from a debate? Do you think uncertainty limits potential? Neither do we have a university of Chicago Booth, school of business. We believe in asking questions and questioning answers with campuses in Chicago London and Hong Kong. The booth NBA is for people who see challenges as opportunities and want the skills to make positive change in any market anywhere in the world, ready to find your community search Chicago boost at eighty. You today to learn more