From the New York Times on Michael Barbara. This is today. These you're being named deputy attorney general rod roses time was so by what he was seeing inside the White House that he proposed a series of extreme measures. Will those proposals now cost him his job and new allegations against judge, Brent Cabinet, its month September. Twenty four march met: where did this most recent investigation start for you. This has taken months to work on

if not even more than that, my colleague Anna Gorman and I set out to try and look at the period of time between when Jim call me was fired and may have twenty seventeen and when mother was appointed as the special council in a day period of time. What happened inside the justice department? How did rod roses die? The deputy attorney general, who is overseen rush investigation make tee extraordinary and ultimately monumental decision to appoint far smaller as a special council. And MC wanted. Those eight days seem like an important period of time. In a sense, it was the time that time forgot It was incredibly important how they came to that decision by

and with Mahler being appointed, so it often got overlooked and- we never sort of turned around and look back and said. Okay, what happened after call me was fired him. What the f b I try and do what was going through rod, rose and stones mind. How did he come you appoint Mahler and MIKE. Why were you interested in rod? Rosen stones were all, and all of this, in particular during this a deep, your head. He was in this incredibly unique position because, as part

They call me firing. He rode a memo for the president that basically gave the rationale for it: America's brand new deputy attorney general ROD, Rosen Stein, provide the ammunition and the altitude for President Donald Trump to drop a political bombshell and is brand new deputy attorney general ROD, Rosen Stein, who, as a by partisan background, recommended to the president that the President Fire James call me as attorney general,

it appears to centre around commies handling of the investigation into Hillary Clinton emails. Ironically enough, it sharply criticised how call me had handled the clean email investigation right, the public last trust in the FBI after director call me bungled, the Hillary Clinton Email Casey claims. I cannot defend the directors handling of the investigation, Rosen Stein right and I do not understand his refusal to accept that he was mistaken, then call me get hired and all of the criticism comes down on Rosen Stein. The Democrats say wise at the: U help the President come up with a sham reason to get right. Call me and how do know that it's a sham, raised the justification in roses dies letter will It was never all that believe above all, that the only reason that Trump fired call me

because he was to mean the Hillary Clinton and had been too tough on her. It was hard to believe that in the face or the backdrop of an investigation into ties between Donald Trump Campaign and Russia and what happens in the gaze after chromium fired is that Rosen's thine is sharply criticised in the press, fur apparently cleanest, fake reason to fire call. Me d FBI begins pressuring Rosen's time behind the scenes to appoint a special council. Rosen Stein starts considering candidates. And then I may sixteen we report that call me had written a contemporaneous memo about an interaction he had with Trump a day after that story comes out. He appoint smaller to be the special council

so at this point a series of events, some of which rose, assign, has a little control over like drafting a letter and others. He doesn't like the disclosure of the fact that the President asked call me to end the investing Flynn are all coming together and make Rosen's don't feel like he has to appoint an independent investigator of this. All Rosen Stein apparently felt that there were too many questions about the independence of the investigation that he had to go to the next level to appoint a special council who has some protections from outside influence from the White House. Ok, so that's the backdrop

for your latest reporting? What have you learned about this eighty period? We ve learned about the different measures that Rosen Stein and others considered as they confronted the fall out from the coma fiery. They didn't completely understand the president's behaviour. They were sure what he up to they weren't sure that he maize and be fit enough for the office, and we have learned about some of those things they considered and what did they consider? Particularly Ravenstein Rosen Stein raised the prospect of wearing a wire to record his conversations with the president.

And he spoke to FBI officials about the idea of trying to recruit others, to invoke the twenty fifth amendment to ask the President from office. Might let's take these one at a time, because their preached Mary. What was roses time discussing with the president that he thought he needed a recording of roses. I thought that the president was not taking a process of picking a new FBI director as seriously as he shut He thought that it was Kay Artic, an emblematic of the larger dysfunction within the administration, and who did he make this suggestion in front of because it feels that the kind of thing you would say two very trusted p

around you Rosen's time, makes it in a meeting with senior federal law enforcement officials, officials at the top of the Justice Department and the FBI. Suzanne tying was thinking our record. These conversations with the president that alarmed me that feel like they reflect some very problematic. Behaviors and instincts from this precedent in this moment, and then I will do what exactly such clear what he wanted to do with those recording, but but we do know resist. I was also talking about the time was trying to recruit others to invoke the twenty fifth amendment right. The second of his pretty extraordinary suggestions, correct and to whom did roses. I make the suggestion of invoking the twenty fifth amendment it

is made to Andrew Mackay, the acting FBI director at the time who memorialize did in the contemporaneous memo he wrote and how would that have worked exactly invoking the twenty fifth amendment two, you said you need for a portion of the cabinet and a portion of Congress to essentially declare that the president's unfit for office and rose. Time is saying that he believes he could recruit Attorney General Jeff Sessions and John Kelly, the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. At the time who is now the White Ass Chief of staff to go along with it, so he expressed some confidence that he believed he could bring those people along with them correct. So how serious do you think that he was about this? Is it looking around an idea, the way that the people do, or is he actually proposing putting this into action like this is

an idea that rosans time was sort of bat neuron with his friend and back yard barbecue. It was something that he raised in a meeting with the top officials at the Justice Department and the FBI, which, in and of itself conveys a certain level of seriousness. Correct comin has just been fired they're, trying to figure out what to do, and he really struggled in the moment he was seen as unnerved You got emotional and, He was under enormous amount of pressure. He was being criticised in the press at a level that he had no first he enough before, and he was essentially the top law enforcement officials, because the attorney general had been refused from the russian vestibule. So it's all resting on his shoulders and roses dine here is making a decision of whether to escalate the russian vessel-

and to a level that he knows will completely alter the trajectory of Donald Trump Presidency, and in. What's our understanding of why all this talk never seems to have gone anywhere and turned into action. I think that some folks thought that these ideas were pretty off the wall and went too far and ultimately, Rothstein makes an extraordinary decision in that to appoint Mahler, and that is the way the questions around trusts. Firing of call me are dealt with so after proposing these two pretty extreme proposal. He ends up during this aid day period, settling on a more conventional round, which is appointing a special council who will investigate everything has been happening and not require these more exotic solutions correct, but we

so don't know what else for Afghanistan may have done all we're talking about here, two ideas that were raised and ultimately, as far as we know, not follow through on what we do know is that the ends of appointing Mahler as the special council and by doing that sort of having a prosecutor who has some protections from the political end of the president and the White House, and that this will be an investigation conducted free of politics. We'll be right back How does your home impact your health which all reality, help million suffering from loneliness. I'm science, journalist Korea's Powell and I'm culture, critic Kristen minds: are we teamed up with invest, go cute, you q and T brand at the New York Times to create innovation uncovered the world.

Changing in real time, often in ways we can predict on innovation uncovered. We share stories about the groundbreaking people in technologies there reshaping our culture right now. Listen though wherever you get your podcast in best Codex distributors ink tonight there are so many questions. How was this said? How serious war, these suggestions and tonight Rosen Stein himself now responding Rosans dying vehemently denying the claims saying in a statement The New York Times story is inaccurate and factually incorrect. I will not further comment. Story based on anonymous sources, who are obviously biased against the department and are advancing their own personal agenda? I dont know where the standard is at the New York Times, but when it's just anonymous all the time and there just willing to run with it, it seems outrageous who do you think my

have been motivated to leave this information to the New York Times? That sort of the nuts of what are our being speculated out right now, I wonder if it's coming from someone who, on Frozen Stein, fired because obviously doesn't make him look very good. The time says their sources are people who were briefed on the fact that ROD Rosans time had said that two other officials and sources who briefed on a memo. Those are their sources. So let's talk about the response to this report in the past few days because there has been a lot of what has been the response from Rosen Stein himself grows and Stein contested the story and said it was not accurate. The justice department. Provided us with a anonymous official who is

in the room at the time of the meeting who said that wrote his time had raised the idea of wearing a wire to record conversations with the president, but that he had done so sarcastically that did not add up with the totality of our other reporting, which was that Rosen Stein was serious when he said it He had been asked in the meeting whether he was joking. He said that he was not and then raised a prospect of wiring up The ILO officials who were going in themselves to meet with Trump about being the next director the government putting forward an additional source in response to reporting, does not seem like a conventional tactic. I can't think of many times I've heard that happening before the Justice Department and the White House went to great lengths to try

undermine this story. Rose style sees himself as a protector of Mahler, and there is a fear that, if anything happens to Rosen Stein, the president, could more easily make a move against smaller. Strain Mahler or get rid of me and the investigation, so the Justice Department trying to undermine the story to try and prevent this notion digging hold and the White House tried to undermine the idea that the twenty fifth amendment was discussed, because that is something the president is incredibly sensitive do so the response is not actually what you might expect. It's, not just the White House trying to deny this story to save face. It's also the Justice Department trying to downplay it to protect the special council, Robber Mauler and his ability to do this investigation correct there.

Trying to protect ravenstein as much as possible to create doubt about the story, so the present doesnt turn around and get rid of roses and getting rid of, Rosen Stein could theoretically mean eventually getting rid of Mahler Direct. That's the fear that if he got rid of roses dine who has gone to great lengths to protect Mahler Tromp would try and get a political ally in their who would do what trump want, which is and the investigation and MIKE. What do you say to what this additional source that the department justice is putting forward is claiming? What's your response to that on this, we sort of ended up with two buckets of reporting. He in one of them was the anonymous official. The Justice Department gave us who said tat they were in the meeting and that roses TAT had been sarcastic in suggesting the wearing of the wire correct in the other,

back. It was a wide range of reporting that involves speaking too many different people who. My colleague Anna Gorman and I thought I had more credibility in more detail about what occurred and provided us with evidence that Rosen State had indeed been asked whether it was a joke and had dismissed when you, they evidence. What kind of evidence can anyone ever provide about a meeting that was. Many many months ago, meetings were memorialize in FBI memos. At the time. The document did conversations that Andrew Mikhail, the acting FBI director had with and star so MIKE as a reporter. Your weighing two things at this moment the single source put forward by the Department of Justice who claims that the suggestion was sarcastic and

views and documents, including the caves memorialize, knows from these meetings, suggesting that they were quite serious and it sounds like you The rapporteur decided there is more weight to the collective reporting of these sources and these metals correct way, unnamed source reporting, where we are relying on people to speak under the listen of anonymity, too. We are forced to weigh a wide range of different things when we come to the in about how to use that information. How specific was the information? What was the person's motivation? how reliable have they been in the past and how much does it fit in? the larger narrative of other things that we understand were going on at the time. Does this sort of fit into other stories

their reporting that we have does this help fill out the picture in a way that sort of makes sense, and what about the twenty fifth amendment adjusted has Rubinstein or anyone at the Department of Justice at all suggested that that was done in a sarcastic manner. The Justice Department has put no one's forward to say that the discussions about the twenty fifth amendment were done in jest roses. I did put out a second statement in which he said he had never advocated, for removing the president without moving seems very intriguing,

said he had never advocated using the twenty fifth amendment, but he's not saying that he didn't propose it. Correct outlet, resistance, beef herself on her got it. So I also want to talk about the public response to this report, because its been really intends on both sides with people, understanding that this report could result in the president, potentially firing radwan style. On the one hand, people on the left would be very uncomfortable with that happening

because of what that might mean for the future of the mother restoration, as we talked about. On the other hand, people on the right would be uncomfortable, because if Trump fires Rosen Stein, it could potentially add two possible evidence of obstruction of justice which began with the firing of call me. So a lot of people seem to not like this reporting yeah. I understand there as we follow the different threads of the trunk story. Every piece of reporting is not going to be. With open arms, and that certainly the case here? But that's not really are job. Our job is to die I've in to what happened and come to a place where we feel confident about the fact that we have finally, Michael let's talk about the likelihood that Trump actually does fire rosans time, which is what both sides of this fear. What are you

that is going to happen here, is Rosen Stein. Now a marked man. Many people believe that gotta call on Friday night, from someone fairly close to the president, who said Is it that the present hasn't done anything roses time? We don't understand, see and I say, will you know the present luck? I doing a lot more access to him that we do so. What do you think so? we just don't understand. What's going on, we thought that you get very angry and try and do something our colleague? behavior minister reporting, that shows that the president has been sort of even tempered about and why do we think that would be welcome it has wanted to get rid of roses dine in sessions for over a year. Now, since when mother was appointed, What we do know is that, even before the story, he was finally to get rid of them after the mid term elections

I haven't said the beginning of November, or almost there in the present, Polly figures. If I've waited this long, I made his will continue to wait a little bit longer three. He may essentially biting his tie. It looks like it at least for now. You know as we're talking about all this. I cannot thinking of the Epp Ed that the times ran about two weeks ago, written by a senior administration official, who also recounted a discussion of taking pretty extreme measures to oust the president, including invoking the twentyth at them. And neither of us know who wrote that up at, but if we believe that there is some kind of a trump resistance from within the administration, given what you now reported Is it fair to say that the deputy attorney General United States ROD Rosen Stein, is a part of

I don't know whether he is a part of that, but what we do know is that in May, as twenty seventeen less than four months after Donald Trump took office, his senior officials were already talk about the twenty third amendment were already talking about whether or not they should try to end his presidency. Yes, Michael. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks for em hears what else you need Another day on Sunday, after nearly a week of tend to go, she agents Christine Glossy for agreed to testify before the Senate judiciary about her allegations against Supreme Court nominee, bread cabin.

Doktor Blasi had originally asked for the FBI to investigate her claim that cabin or sexually assaulted her in high school before she would agree to testify, but has sent back down from that demand several details surrounding the public hearing now scheduled for Thursday. Remain unresolved, including whether senators or their staff pool question doctor block, but in a steep, her lawyer said that those issues quote will not in eat the hearing taking place, do you have an open mind on this and is there anything that doctor foreign could say that would persuade Judah but again scabbard OZ, nomination. Honestly on Sunday, a republican member of the judiciary, Senator Linsey Graham said he did not expect doktor was his testimony to change his support for Cavanaugh, I'm just saying

honest unless there's something more? No, I'm not gonna ruin judge cabinets life over this, but she should come. Or she should have our say she will be respectfully traded. A few hours later, the new Yorker reported that Senate Democrats are investigating a new claim of sexual misconduct against capital. From his time as an undergraduate at you Devil Ramirez told the magazine that, during a drunken powered Cavanaugh thrust his penis into her face ass. She pushed him away in response. The ranking Democrat on the judiciary, Diane finds called for postponing Thursday's hearing with doktor blast and asked that the FBI investigate The latest allegations

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