From the New York Times, I Michael Barbara. This is the today a special Edition of the show, as news continues to break around the president, the firing of FBI director genes combing and the investigation into possible collusion between the Trump Camp and Russia. The latest the day after commies firing Trump told top russian officials that in dismissing him, the pressure was quote taken off it's Friday afternoon may nineteenth. Mere times mademoiselle pay up who so it's Barbara hey how to go on good good. I'm here with my game and Maggie Abraham Ho Ho

Maggie Worried, Maggie's turning our year in the studio, I'm here were jumping guys. Thank you for coming on really short notice. The thank you met. What have you learned well today? We learned that in the meeting at the White House in the oval office the day after present from fired the bad record from call me. The president raised the fight with the russian Foreign Minister and the russian ambassador, he said I just fired the head of the FBI. He was crazy, a real, not job. I faced great pressure because a Russia that taken off- and he added I'm not under investigation. What is the significance of the president saying those words and saying it the oval office to the people that he said it too will just gives so much more fuel to his critics who say,

at the present obstructed? Justice was trying to obstruct justice by firing. Jim call me as FBI director me was leading the investigation, into the trunk campaign and possible collusion Emerging operatives- this is just going to add to the chorus of people who say that. President wanted to kill that he wanted for Peter that investigation, end and firing. Jim call me with an effort to do that. I just How did you learn about that conversation? It was told to us. It was read to us from a document that summarize the meeting and the that's pretty standard practice. When principles have me

We are therefore in counterparts will be some documentation of the meeting. That than circulated for the record and people who are going to pollinate policy decisions off a van below are going to consult that to see in a war. What is the president her or what is secondary state or any these principles? What are they telling our foreign counterparts so that we can in a message off that? So we can build policy around that. Presumably though it's not meant to become public Sure he summoned to become public, I mean we should be clear. We don't have a copy of the document in this conversation here does not involve any national security secrets or classified information will be what what the document obviously wasn't meant to be circulated, but are saying that the President called the FBI director and not job, and I said you have- is firing relieve pressure that in itself is not an actual skin secret. You said it standard for transposing these conversations to be circulated, so should the president

have expected that this would become public knowledge, not sure what the president was aware of her wasn't aware of. Certainly his aids were aware that if not transcripts notes are taken ethically and then officials afterwards, they compare to members now and then that gets disseminated and I dont know whether the president is made aware of that. As we know, this president is not particularly details oriented. He focuses on what he sees as either Mehta or in the moment, and look. I think that- and I again I will say this and I realize I'm going to be accused of making an apology for him. That's not at all what I'm doing, but you wanna say where I think they are coming from on them in his mind he sees it as I'm not saying anything differently. Privately that I'm saying publicly- and I criticized call me and I said, compromised this investigation and the four place with grandstanding and one government. Who defended him said that the aim of this in context was actually to try to us.

Extract a concession from the Russians to try to give them for lack of a better word sickly get Russia to recognise that they had put him in a politically difficult position and perhaps extra concession that way and I think in his mind he believes that that's possible I think it doesnt occurred to him. The way this will appear in of how he is engaging with an adversary experts, famous To me a bit more, how would this comment from the president to these two very senior russian officials, possibly guilt the Russians into doing something for the United States, like If he's bringing it up and there's a tactic to it. What is exactly the tactic, and can you put it into some sort of contact? Sure I can attempt to this is a president who is known for shooting at me of speaking in this kind of discursive style, and then explaining it later is something else. I don't know whether that was what happened or whether this was indeed a strategy, but one of his defenders and government, put it as a strategy to basically say to Russia,

You interfered in the selection. Of course it in impact the outcome, as he's said publicly, but this put me in a terrible political space. But when I wanted to improve this relationship and by bringing it up that he's going to somehow induce guilt as they d, get concessions on issues your importance to United States such as Ukraine, such as Syria, where Russia obviously has a big footprint above and by telling them that he had gotten rid of James call me: what do you think he was attempting to them than he had done. But then he had deep politicized. This investigation by getting rid of call because call me, was the person who was making it into a political issue. Through various means, and now of course, it's going to continue, but it's not going to be treated as this democratic talking point again, I'm not saying that that is a logical answer, I'm saying that's how they said Maggie. What did the White House say in response to this reporting about the meeting between the press

and these two russian officials, the White House, is not disputed any of the account of what we have spent. We asked repeatedly mad. This seems to come back to the question of intent, and we talk to our colleague Adam attack earlier this week about the possibility that the good some day be charges of obstruction of justice. After the report, the trumpet asked call me for his loyalty. This sounds similar. It sounds like the intention here may. Can be really unclear. I mean the people who have been shouting that Thou Shalt was trying to obstruct justice by firing him coming. Will have more to shout about because of this. What if changes in the short term now for the present. I I'm not sure I am. I think it it add to our understanding of his mind, set on the firing it obviously put Russia.

You know in his mind around the time of the firing, but we didn't naturally need this new that, because we have, the present were saying that Maggie the president is now in the air on his first trip abroad as president. How do we think this revelation might affect that trip well I don't think it's gonna help Gluck our story posted shortly after they took off. There is also should impose story that you spoke about how a senior White House official is a person of interest in the in the Russia probe. And it seemed to be pretty narrow list as to who that could be. So I think that both of those factors are going to weigh on his, and I think that, as we know with the president, he get stuck on something and he conifer separates on it. It impacts his state of mind.

He was already not looking forward to the length of this trend and I'm not sure how this is going to help. I also think that he was looking to this trip as a bit of a break from all of this, and this is gonna make it harder, so I won't hunger something a little bit tricky when ever I talk to my colleagues to all tread. Carefully on this. There seemed to be no denying that there is a lot of leaking going on right now that is happening from inside the United States government, and I wonder if you think there were some sort of a turning point recently. Why are we seeing so many things come to light that traditionally have just been locked behind a door, and we would never know about when it came to our president, man.

Things haven't been running normally in Washington, and that is neither I am not passing judgment on, whether that is a good or a bad thing. I actually think the president promised that things would be shaken off. Rent and doing things differently is inherently news, so when things are different that it attract, lot of attention by reporters. So there's a lot happening, because reporters are responding to your two foreign netteke news environment, but melamine. You want more question about this cause. I'm trying to help listeners understand why they're getting such a huge volume of breaking news every day. In this case, a special edition of the daily even is connected in any way, possibly to the firing of James coming. For sure right. It was a. It was a pretty for matic and

News attracts journalists, and he made a lot of news and their White House story kept changing and so attract, a lot of reporters who did a lot of digging and so yeah, of course, you're, seeing a frenzy of new story in response to a frenzy of news Maggie. What easing Look. I think that everything about this is unusual. Write, em, intimates point this president came in saying he was going to shake up Washington, but his version of shaking up Washington has also meant I going very aggressively at the intelligence community that he's going to oversee. That is something that is not necessarily engender. Good will in that community and frankly, within the White House, where the president sits, and so there there are risks to this in the thing that I feel like I can't say often enough, and it

and so illogical that it's hard to absorb. But it is the reality just having gone through now to among your two going into your three with the Trump campaign which has never ended despite him taking office. He does not believe that he has done something wrong. He does I believe that there is anything he doesn't understand why anything is wrong here and he and to a great extent, his son, a larger cushion, are part of this. Is coming up business world in the case of both man, part of in the case of trumpets it? He is basically led. This consequence free existence for a very long time where he managed to convince people. But even a loss was a win. He talks himself into things and he believes that Washington spend too much time on sort of the forms convention of diplomacy, as opposed to other raw deal, power end and so not really surprising in that context, because he believes everything is a deal and he is constantly selling and negotiating.

And he will use whatever he can? The problem for him is it amounts The most part I mean I do in these were not job, but he made pretty clear his feelings about James call me it's on a huge scale. We are not used to some one doing then in a private Used to someone doing that in a private meeting with an adversary in the oval office the day after this was done, so you think he has accepted that there are sometimes legal consequences for your words. I think that he has not, the I have watched. I know you have to a lot of depositions that he has given that were videotaped ivory. Taped. I've read transcripts of depositions he's very careful when he is under oath. He is very careful in those depositions about what the truth is that in real life he has paid fairly little consequence and he tends to basically live in and he tends to basically live exactly in that moment and say whatever he has to say- to get himself through a ten minute increments,

And he's the one deciding what getting through it looks like it's just that there is a real world at play right now, that's it! For now. I Michael Barber. Hi, I'm Kristen minds are, and I'm the coast of innovation and covered a new pod cast. The world is changing in real time, often in ways we don't notice. An can't protect innovation uncovered explores the breakthroughs that our driving our culture, now from how we play to what we consume to how we can act, learn more about the ideas that are reaching our reality. In extraordinary way, is innovation uncovered is applied, cast from invest, go cute, you too, and t brand at the New York Times listened today in Basque or distributors, ink.