From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is the dead. Today, Derek Black left, the White nationalist movement. He was poised to help me betraying his family and friends in the process. After leaving he came to see it as a fringe move on the margin and reprehensible to most America, which is why he has been shocked by the events of the past couple weeks. It's Tuesday August 22nd, yeah. I was born into one of the most prominent white nationalist families and the country like Godfather, for lack of any other words

do. Coup was married to my mother when, before I was born, and then my father started, the largest white nationalist website storm try the first. Why now? What website on the internet- and it has been the largest one- never sense, so I grew up with the leadership of the window. Movement all coming over to the house, and when I got older, we'd go to conferences and was my life? Derek black grew up in West Palm Beach. Florida occur, The water from the president's moral logger mansion and he used to drive past it almost every day in a red pickup truck with a confederate flag sticker on the back window. His father is Don Black once a grand wizard of the cake, a k, sensible you're describing as the year you're kind of the first child of American. Why nationals?

I did I did. I knew everybody knew everybody who is involved in it and I knew all the different organizations and I expected that it would be my life's work to try to advances. I thought it was the right thing: how did you process these ideas of your godfather and your father and your mother and his entire movement as a child? Would his white nationalism through DE through the eyes of a child? Oh, it's a really knit movement of people is important to understand my contacts, that and in my family and hearing white nationalism, on the web was my dad's goal. That was what drew

him from the early nineties from the beginning of the web and so growing up, we always had the latest computer, and ass. This broad barrier, the first people in the neighborhood, have broadband because whom we had to give storm front running, and technology in connecting people on on the website. Long before social made the way the web set up now was his driving purpose, so we were very connected everybody in the Norway Nationals movement around the world. When I was a little kid I would get on chat rooms in the evenings and I had friends in Australia who I would talk to because they were at certain our friends in Serbia. Talk to a certain. Our agenda and what would you be saying to each other The late ninety, those talking to white nationalist kid than he was explaining to me the american invasion of Serbia and how was tied to jewish control american military well, not the convention

the aim of the: U S: military action, which was to spare people genocide. Absolutely yet I started a kids website on our front, I might add website, and so for the time I was twelve caused. All I get death threats and may also there's you too. You started your own kind of white now unless website for children, yeah win, but not sure what age, maybe eleven or twelve or something I set up a pretty basic little web page on there and posted some essays that I was writing at the time were actually and waterways. That brings people together. I know it brought my family together. The fact that you have media coming over. As I went on television and newspapers, which were usually coming over to talk to my dad and then you get these really bad stories about us, but we are all working towards cause. So the fact that everybody is so opposed

to something we know is so right really brought us together at this point in your life, when, when you re a young man- and you saw an african American or you saw a jewish person, what was going through your mind? What kind of things were you were you thinking saying to herself. I think my family made a distinction between individuals and big groups that there's there Many opinions on those are my national. There are people who say you can't be friends with anyone who is now I and my valet was generally about or cosmos. At another, I think they ve got more extreme in the last couple of years. Pause and tell you that the notion of a cosmopolitan white nationalist diesel is a little tricky phenomena. Go with us when you zoom in on it- and it becomes the whole world

that you're viewing, then all the different factions take on a bigger raw brain and so do. I think my family, usually, at least that's it was my deafening. My attitude by the time I got a college was that individuals are one day you talk to. People in anybody can be anything in their races. Going to predict and individuals, life or anything about them. It's only when you're talking about millions of people that this becomes a defining aspect of humanity in reality, it is white supremacy, it's just that they wouldn't see it. That way, I never saw them way. My dad, I genuinely believe oh, very well does not believe that he is doing so.

Bad to other people that does not make it undrew, but a lot of these people don't believe that there actually hurting other people by their policies key instead believes what that he's doing something for himself for white people. I believe that for white people too, exist, stand live Van DEN, have a country like Amerika was before nineteen, fifty, Everybody needs to be the same color and be together because raises this real genetic thing that predicts all this stuff, like tat, Jones and ability and- and that raises oh real, that every race in the world should be separated, saying this

living. As I do now, it sounds solution all, but it is something that is possible for somebody to believe and think that it makes sense dear. Can you take me to two thousand and eight and President Obama's election knows happy how old you were at that moment, but do member where you are and what you were doing around the time of the big one centre, Barack Obama will carry the state of Virginia. This is an important win for Senator Obama to designate. I was nineteen and at the same, time, as the Obama was heading towards winning the president's even the first election. I had also submitted my name for this

local republic and Executive Committee election, which he was county level, and I one that I got a sixty percent of the votes This little known you senator only a few years ago, seemingly cunning Out of nowhere, and now he will be the first african american president. The United States. This is a moment, so many people have been waiting for and there really excited, especially in Chicago, one day, the Duke organised a conference for things the weekend after the election, and I went up there and it was pandemonium, people who are sobbing and saying that now, there's never gonna be another white president again and that the country is loss thinking. They had to make

Contingency plans and the thinking of my national leaders at the time was that Barack Obama has won, but now that he's one you're going to have a huge white backlash against EU so loud, and so it became this meeting to try to figure out how to make the movement For while he's president and there it is very very well let Derek speak for himself here, but Derek has really made some progress. I've been speaking for years about how we ve got the soft underbelly of politics is available to us, and I've been preaching this. You know you ve gotta, go out there just go out and take votes, go to small actions. We the knock on the door, reach the people and direct went out there. He did. He ran for the republican

executive committee of his parish and he won the election. I had just one in that little republican position, so I was very encouraged that If we went around and told people all the white nationalist talking points without NASA So I saying that were white nationalist that we could win elections, whether there county things like that, or maybe even larger ones? People here is Garrick Black and after Derek. I usually do. A radio show on storm front. I don't know where you are James did how many people here Listen to storm for radio. My whole talk was the fact that run. As Republicans and say things like we need to show an immigration we need to fight affirmative action. Neither in globalism and you could win these positions

a as long as you didn't get out it as a white nationalism, get all that country see that comes along with it. So the Republican Party, which had just lost a Brok Obama. Your argument was that it could be the vehicle for the mainstreaming of of white nationalism Wait supremacy year by my thinking at the time was that all these this backlash, which eventually did see of white people against having a black president, would have to go into public and party, because Amerika to party system and the Republican Party would become the White People's party. Well, my election happened last month and the newspaper local newspapers that I was staying on the state of flux and I don't think you do. You realize how emotionally distressing it is to be called a stain on your stay in when we got the, then you have to come out here to college. So tell me about that

in two thousand and ten I moved across the state and started college at this little Limber Lars College in Florida, which was about three and a half. Hours from home, and it was the first time that I had been lived away from home nobody knew who I was and I did not volunteer who I was or anything about my background made friends hung out with people, played my guitar on my balcony and my dorm. It was nice to come back from class and be able to talk about three or philosophy or or whatever other sub and be around other people and so that whole mall that I was being a student they're trying to live. This too, lives like I had done for years and welcome back to the programme. This is the second broadcaster. The programme I am there like on the Bp Br thirteen forty a m- forget I'd, get and will get on the phone in the morning

call into my dad's radio show and talk about whose and then go to class, hang out with people who were radio, often strong social justice advocates and trying to live both of those lives was reading was terrifying because I knew that one day some There was a time I name into Google all right. Let's bring on now my long time, family friend from calling it from Europe David, do they former Louisiana Representative and probably the biggest spokesmen, the greatest spokesmen for white rights in the United States David a online. I very bad you're funny like to talk to you back and congratulations on the new programme, and I look forward to your rightfully one There. There was this one really memorable moment where I was sick

in the cafeteria and talking to some people I knew- and one of them discovered this website storm, which wishes the site that my dad ran and that I had a kids page on and I had. Run the internet, radio on for years and years and opinions expressed on this programme are those of the host guest and collars and do not necessarily represent those of WMD staff, management or advertisers, and I was still While he was in school, even though it and have as much time for it last night was the Republican Executive Committee meeting in was armies? Downtown was palm beach, it is the big and a guy who is sitting across the table from me, found the Lord of the rings section of the storm front website and showed every in turn around, and can you believe these people are trying to blogger his nerves, enter into white nationalism. Isn't this insane and I had founded the Lord of the rings section because

When the movies came out, I got super into it and I figured you could probably get people who, like such a super white myth. Those A few of them are probably gonna be turned on by why national as them in more mundane lay. I just wanted to talk about the movies, so I had found it that thing, maybe in years earlier, and so this guy turned his computer around us. Show everybody the section and I just pretended like I had never heard of the website before her. You just acted as if it didn't exist in you had no yeah. So what you know, what is that? What a storm run and so then, of course, inevitably, it happens. You're found out the student forum explodes and your shunned on campus for quite some time. But then you get an inventory bright. Tell me about that. I had a friend on Campbells who I had got into no during my first

through and nobody knew who I was He was an observant Jew who had she bought dinners pretty regularly whenever he was in town on Friday night and he would invite people of web atheists and all her doll sort of tomorrow so nice dinner and so be it invited me to arts, and I knew him, and so I brought wine and waving, even after learning what he did about you yeah created, he had read my posts on storm for I'm going back here, see even the stuff when I was a teenager and he doubted that he was going to convey, smooth anything I just wanted to. Let me see a jewish communities so that if I was going to keep saying these anti semitic things that at least I had seen real Jews, It was ultimately in private conversations with person I met at the shop dinner's. Who we were there. We will talk about things.

This is not only white nationalism, but eventually white nationalism I would say this is what I believe about differences. I have twelve different studies that have been published over the years, here's the journal awaited Nationals Journal. That's put the stuff together. I believe that this is true, that race predicts IQ and that their a differences between raises and then they would come back with a hundred and fifty more recent, more well or ill studies explain to me how statistics works and Have we would go back and forth until I would come to the end of that are in say yes that actually make sense that does on hold together and now, I'm gonna remove that from my ideological toolbox, but everything else is still there and we did that over a year or two

thing after another until I got to a point where I didn't believe it anymore. So as you in this friend going round and round- and your mind is changing about this. What's the definitive moment, where you make a decision and do something about it, was really this letter over the summer of two thousand and thirteen, and I sent it southern Poverty LAW centre, which is an organism, in my entire life that had been the enemy they had after my mother, they had constantly written articles about my father. They had tried to get his website taken down, head then one of day, one of the biggest opponents of my family for my entire life

turned to them, as somebody who would would disseminate this. This letter Europe, I did I turn to them to publish my letter, because I knew that their their intelligence report was the most widely read thing in the way nationalist world much more so than any. Why nationalist publication? it was like the gossip mag there, the wine nationals, turned to find out what everybody else was doing in by sticking my letter on their website. I knew that everyone nationalist would see it. Every anti racist would hear about it. The audience was waterways my own family. I wanted them to know that I understood well. We believed- and I were systematically disbelieving each point and and I just send it and they published it and when it came out, my dad called me up.

The morning and said I I think I think you ve been hacked. I think your email was hackers. Somebody sent this letter while he didn't believe it or not. No, we hadn't talked about my beliefs, changing we ed it. First, he was incredibly sad. I he called me. A day or maybe two days after I had written a letter, it was very the first time we talk sense. He first called ass. Kids Tell me I thought I had been hacked, and it was just a sad moment were- is that I've thought about it? and it's really hurting. Maybe I think it might now. Then I got idea to have a son. If this is the pain, that's gonna come from it. Oh he's said that he wondered whether it was a good idea to have had a son because of the shame he felt, because you had written that letter and rejected everything he stood for yeah and

could understand it called again later that day and said. I thought I should have said that I'm sorry and then we started talking bit by bit. I may I made the argument that family and political beliefs should not be the same thing and aren't the same. Bang, and he came back at the time with the case that there is nothing in your life experience there there would suggest that our family is is not a political family. We we believe these things, that is the basis of our family. The idea that you could be anti white nationalism that would, in effect to hear your relationship to the family is not going to work. It was how we can

that's that's. What holds us together is sound. Unbelievably painful was when's the last time you spoke of them nonsense, beef or Charlottesville. Nonsense all this my big revelation when I left this moment a no long

talk to anybody and the movement was that most people don't talk about race very often, and so I the conclusion that why nationalism as a friend move. Everybody is aware that it should be a french movement. Barack Obama has the president he'll make sure that it stays It remains a fringe movement and I'll just try Quietly fade away and never talk about this again in the future,

be fine and nobody wants to say then I'll say it right now at a group you had a group on the other side, they came charging it without a permanent and they were very, very violent. Tuesday remarks took my breath away. You calling all left is the same as NEO Nazis. I hope those people all of those people excuse me: I've condemned NEO nazis, I've condemned many different groups, but not all of those people were NEO Nazis

Believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacist by any stretch. To begin with, I think it's very important understand from the perspective of white nationalists. It's basically the definition of the movement that you're working against the establishment and that's what every white nationalist event is. It is very easy for the local politicians that condemn it, and you expect them to condemn it and there's nothing else that you would dream might happen in. So that's the contacts.

And all the usual condemnations came from everybody else, and I have a message to all the white supremacy in the Nazis who came into Charlottesville today. Go home you're not want equal in Congress and governors and mayors and white nationals white supremacist. They don't let them part of anybody's base there, not a part of this country, their part of hatred, their part of bigotry, their part of evil, and we need to stand up to that and so whether the present white supremacist from NEO Nazis, racist, who clock clan members. You are cowards and we condemn you, people who just wanted to get in their condemnation, because everybody knows it's extremely easy to condemn a white nationalist rally and then on Saturday. It was weird that he didn't. Everybody took that as a huge victory

Their tweets people were commenting online thing like well, that's very new, but Tuesday I was sitting in. Coffee shop and I thought basically the news from this- was done when I read that he had come back and he had said there were. There were good people and the like

nationalist rally and Robert. He salvage their message. Washington was a slave owner was George Washington is live out so well, George Washington Thou loses down is. Are we going to take down she's me? Are we going to take down? We gotta take down statues to judge what we mean when you say he salvage their message that Thomas Jefferson? What do you think it Thomas Jefferson you're like a good? Are we going to take down the sad truth? Is he was a major slave owner? Now we get to take down his dad you, so the message that they were trying to get out was that people tearing down Robert E Lee statue is an assault on white culture. So, if you think they're tearing down Robert E Lee statue is the wrong choice, then these

your guns, that these are the people who are willing to say it, but then, in our midst all the violence in the chaos. I think that got lost you not going to follow these people, even if you believe that and in his message saying that these were good people. Because their fighting for something that a lot of people believe in he's salvaged the message that they wanted to spread, which is that, if you will this too, and maybe you're on the edge about whether this is the french movement or not. Donald Trump thinks we're fine, but I dont think that the whole world reads it that way: within the White National Movement and anyone who is thinking- maybe this might be a movement for me suddenly being at that rally becomes a historical moment. What they wanted to do was blow apart that car. Text to say that if using rarely statue should stay up, then there's no distinction.

Between what you believe and what a white nationalist believes and it felt like he was agreeing with them. What do you think? The impact of of that is having the president and you and your words salvage their message and and make all right what they were doing there in the broader sense. I think Tuesday was the most important moment in the history of the modern White nationalist movement. I mean it's, disempower will say what will happen in the future. May be nothing but a few. We're on the fence about whether you should get involved in this, the stuff or not. The president's ok is the biggest thing that ever happened.

And so I dont want to be alarmist and say: oh, this is this. Movement is gonna take over the world, but it's more precarious. Now than any point in my life on whether this thing as a movement and as a dangerous ideology grow, because we don't seem to be as clear as we once more that we have to keep the suppressed We cannot let this be, who we are and usually have a set of normal reactions in these interviews and my vocabulary kind of fails me a little bit. So I knowledge that sure now understand. I mean this weird position these days, where I have this background. I understand what people at these events and rallies again, but I also know what I know now. My experiences in Zaire

C. On one hand where something is horrifying and on the other, I'm looking added and wondering why they organise the event like that or why They were so kind of goes to have swastika flags flying weren't. They worried about the messaging and then I come back and say what is happening in my country. I say I have these two experiences and I have a lot of trouble, reconciling them, sometimes as a grave. Try to deal with the vote this week. I wonder just how much the fact that my family and other people, I knew were willing to push to try to get people who were maybe on the fence, or maybe thought that they were being discriminated against or that their kids couldn't get into college because of primitive action and trade push them a little bit more and try to get them a little bit.

Were angry. How much of a fact that had I am, I can't say I don't write. It sounds like you, you ve, given some thought, though, two year to your honour on us at something I think about every day. I think jerk. You know this. I'm sure there are. There are still pictures of you online as a child attending various far right why nationalist white, supremacist conferences and Gallo Head on- and you are- you are enough- I'm guessing you don't go online and look at whose all that frequently. But what do you think when you look back on on those images and end that version of yourself? I am always very conflicted that.

I've kind. I've come to terms with myself and not too much filled worth Shame all the time, because I know what else I could do, what wanted to do or would have been more comfortable in what I really really wanted to do was just leave. Never say anything again disappear off the face of the earth pretend that I had never lived the life that Well, I didn't know anything about why nationalism and never be heard from again- and it was a few more tough covers regions. They convinced me that that wasn't enough. He can't because I had actually done harm.

Try to follow their beliefs that my father has. If you look kind of sideways If you believe something you should do if you think that there is a danger to our society, you should do something about it and I dont want to be involved in this stuff, but I just want to try to offer contact sometimes because I think that its high, DE understand what this movement is and how somebody can be a part of the movement and feel like their doings something good an and also offer that perspective on how you can realise your doing something very bad,

It says that we are saying is here: we are still falling your father's believe, just not the way he he intended for you. I don't know if he sees it that way, but sometimes I do care. Thank you very much. I appreciated thanks Michael predicament,.

Here is what else you need to know today, nearly sixteen years after September, eleventh attacks after the extraordinary sacrifice of blood and treasure. The american people are weary of war without victory. In a speech before soldiers at Fort Meyer in Virginia President Trump announced his long awaited plan to resolve the conflict in Afghanistan, but longest war in: U S, history! Seventeen years, I share the american people's frustration. Trump campaigned on a promise to keep the. U S out of foreign wars said he had changed his mind about a quick withdrawal of? U S, troops from the country. My original instinct was to pull out and historically

I like following my instincts, but all my life. I've heard that decisions are much stiff when you sit behind the desk in the oval office, in other words, when your president of the United States, without offering many details, including two numbers. The president said he would deepen american military engagement in the region, but insisted his goals would be narrower than past administrations. We will not dictate to the afghan people how to live or how to govern their own complex society. We are not nation building again, we are killing terrors, that's it for the deal. I Michael Barbara, see tomorrow.

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