With the prominent opposition leader Leopoldo López under house arrest, Venezuela thought its loudest political prisoner had finally been silenced. But he refused to buckle, even facing the prospect of going back to prison. Here’s the second part of Mr. López’s story. Guest: Wil S. Hylton, a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine. For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
From the New York Times of Michael Varvara
TED, adding Venezuela
thought its loudest political prisoner had finally been silenced, only
part two of the story. It's Tuesday, eight March, thirteen. So for the past, six or seven,
months a couple a few times a week. I will sit down my laptop and open up a video chat service that we believe is secure and
I will create a room private room.
The only real
as an I can access
and I wait for a few minutes and at a certain point, the screen Conor flickers.
Its relations starts to
swirl around and see you know Miss emerge.
After a minute or two I can see in and we start talking, you think today would be
Hey data. They go back to the prison experience and tell me some more
We don't have much time tonight. I wish we should discuss, showed its very few,
Well, how risky is LEO's decision to talk to you?
Oh, it was always risky may job, because free speech, Amigo
expressing my ideas, remember
the is under house arrest serving
Ten year sentence, we'll Hilton rights for the Times magazine and the government debts
imprisoning him has said in the clearest possible terms. He is absolutely prohibited to speak publicly and if he does so, he will be
honest in a greater way than he ever has been before. Is the White Van there another way that no new cars
and he knows there monitoring him all the time we took it for granted,
There were audio bugs in his house at a minimum, but it seemed fairly obvious that the secret police, outside of his head
with an assignment to surveil, him would have
access to his internet activity and in fact,
every so often risking. Basically Austria agenda a white truck with
all about side of his house and knock out his video and audio and internet connection ere you in there and we would have to
wait a couple of hours before the van laughed to resume contact. So I think that this is that this is important, and I have thought about this and if I fell for for this right, is it sending the message that have become broken? But despite all this, he was determined to keep talking. So we took whatever precautions. We could look what we face from college
selling college friends here. What's happened, for example, we pretend to be college friends and this college friend is they get about shifting, learn and wondering you very little talk about journalism centrally none and over time I got to know
our LEO's kids men while lies in elementary,
school and their lives.
Although Junior
was only an infant really. When his father went to prison is now,
four years old in
we getting to know is down for the first time, an area. We asked
just kind of pan, and without it and say, hey it's good to see. I haven't seen you for a while and things like that. The kind of keep this looking friendly and not like an interview setting you sick, you gonna come on. How do you know who to blame? It can only be a couple of people. I know this effort shaking thousands of hands from Tuesday,
I wish the thing is: we often did joke around about the circumstances, because, despite the
short term risk of him getting caught. Talking to me, there was this larger ambien hope around.
Might be possible in Venezuela.
We saw people in this pro or position area waiting hours to vote by voting to recover democracy to recover democracy here, and then this will last summer was a moment in Venezuela in modern history. Today's vote could be a stark turning point for Venezuela controversial President Nicolas like headlines all around the world. We're talking about this being a turning point for Venezuela. Today's election could be a tipping point for a country that holds the world's largest oil reserves logic.
Here and all that this is the moment. Many here have been waiting for the opposition parties
rallying into the political ranks, to take some governors.
Tips and take more maritime and hopefully put up a present?
your candidate who could win today, Venezuela rose up with dignity to say that freedom is not negotiable.
One
when he and I started talking. I think there
a very strong sense from both of us that, while the future
was unknown. It was entirely possible that by the time,
this story came out. Leopold Lopez could either be
out of house arrest and deeply engaged in.
Political life of the country or even possibly,
a candidate himself allegations of election fraud in favour of present. My
is ruling party one. Nearly all twenty three contested state governor share venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, consolidated power in an election year
She considered a sham, but as a week's went on, it became clear that
Maduro governments grip on power
Was only tightening diplomats
Nicholas Madeira government is consolidating power. Ice
using the opposition and of next
His presidential vote for this way, those President Nicolas, but do has borrowed opposition parties from taking part in next year's presidential, be barred. Three opposition parties from running in the election dissolved opposite
parties, one by one they ended up, prosecuting and chasing politicians,
all different opposition parties out of the country
arresting them, and so the picture of electoral change just darkened and then shot
one really important day in the fall.
For a walk with my kids in my phone, tinged
message from LEO telling me that he was
afraid that he was about to go back to prison right away. I think it said I
may only have a few hours
You get audio, saw hurried home and we made the connection right. Ok, so on.
Everything's yell at that that's go over last night around seven thirty, they came to my house more than thirty officers of political police. Then they came to my house
they are they search and they took out a prisoner. The person that has been working with me for the past few years, ahead of security,
in his chief of security away, and no one had heard from him, since these are very close person me idiom beneath charger,
You think you can and understand what I've been in jail and they did it. They took a the excuse that the people from the government gave us supposedly journalist
to my house, and now that I was planning to give them an equal, a message.
And now
for me a moment when I began to see that the book
working on
not gonna end up coming out at a time with less penalty for him,
and it may come out at a time when the penalties would be even worse, but it gives you a clear idea of how they are about giving any sort of message. I am absolutely sure that at this moment, this person that they took his being tortured. I have no doubt about that. That's a pressure in order for them to get
out of them. It was clear to you that this interview with I come out while
was still a prisoner end with the stakes being quite high. As
as possible here, maybe even higher than
when we started so soon, so that the situation and I wanted to tell you- will be willing to go forward with it. I want to tell you my story, I'm not telling anybody else. I would like you to know that if that happens, you'll be the only
I have past couple of months and I would like you to continue
Well, I'm struggling to really understand
Why is LEO doings? Why is he continuing to talk to you? Ah man, I I wish. I knew I mean I'd. Ask we talk about it. I try to understand it
I dont think I don't think I can read my head fully around it. I mean the honest truth. Is I wouldn't do it in his position, but I think part of the explanation for him.
Is the despair of the country around him?
yeah before sunrise hungry Venezuelans are waiting outside grocery stores praying for food.
Trucks to arrive by midmorning. There is little there's only butter Nile only them to more chaos,
in the country of Venezuela is profound each day at dusk, the
employed converge on the sidewalk trash heap in downtown Caracas, average weight loss in Venezuela now, twenty five pounds according to three universe, you have
masses of starving people down even dying from simple. In fact,
and is due to a lack of basic medicine, is a country in the midst of fine upheaval that levels of
crime and violence that you- and I can imagine here, sir,
moderate in the world in Caracas, their living
standards have long declined. Pulverized by
double digit inflation and a collapsing currency exodus
refugees fleeing Venezuela is on
scale western.
Hemisphere has never seen before they come.
As to the syrian refugee crisis or the floor,
The romanian Bangladesh say money
more money, I'm very annoyed. Only God knows what we are going through, because in truth, no one is hoping that we have a government.
I think that only one another,
at this year each year
Leadership needs to suffer. A leadership needs to take risks,
in a certain way. His suffering is totally
a friend or less than what most Venezuelans are going through. It you're not waiting for supper. I, like the people, are suffering in a different way because of course, any suffering for me is not the same. That suffering for four people were not finding fault.
For example, the suffering, because sooner this different ways, different different shades of the same lack of liberties and and the impact of the detention.
So he sees his role as a dissonant leader in this moment as a spur
In saying some form of pain,
that may mirror what's happening outside this house yeah. I think it comes from this.
Place of believing that he is a fundamental right to speak and that if he doesn't exercise that right and take that risk, then he's being defeated and he's not standing up for the principles that are things off and as well and should be out in the streets. Taking the risk of protest.
In standing up for, and so I think for em there's a sense that he can be
rebellious and defiant in the way that available to him- and in this case it's just speaking,
change. He made a really clear that it wasn't my decision, but it was his decision
a felt absolutely certain that it was the right thing to do
this this is carbon extraordinary experience. I have to imagine, as a reporter,
to know that your work will put LEO in grave danger. Yeah heads
It's it's horrible and away. I mean look if you're journalist,
There are going to be some stories where you think some of the people in the story
in prison. I sometimes outward journalism is that's the job. This doesn't feel like the job. I mean it fills the job to tell his story, but it doesn't feel
to know that the subject of a story could be imprisoned. Just for talking to me. It's been very easy to a man
in that at the end he might end up in prison and
well, I might still be spiralling into incomprehensible catastrophe and that you know
I will have been the gun he pulled himself and would that be o k
the country continues to spiral and he's back in prison. It just seems like a very difficult position to be in.
Yeah. I would turn it around on. You were doing this and this is part of it right.
Why? What? How do you feel about it? What if the daily is part of the reason goes back to prison, and I dont know what to do with that. Maybe you do I don't I'll be ok. You know,
Big White van and judges will how're LEO and his family feeling
before the story comes out. I called them right before
the store appeared on line to see how they were doing the craziest as Africa. It is crazy. No longer since you ve found,
you, weren't lowly said and wants to talk to you.
Lillian. How are you
had a conversation with William. I guess it is a real risk of what happens in your family. How are you feeling about that right now, but I'm not coming because because right now to another because well
The ship is really really strong, they kill people. So I, like you, try to talk to people like, but I really really I'm scared.
I think she was willing to focus our attention
I want to really might mean and how bad that could be
by William was also fully committed
only to continue the precision of your boy is really really really dangerous, but the work is not only would we understand what we are fighting for our country and suddenly be Christmas hurriedly, so is not only our families, not only our condition, contravene saw three. A country on details should be nice. I'm now were sacrificed the supply of Nepal, though I thought we continue. The Wynn report proposed marriage to you before you answer. You should know that if you marry me your marrying Venezuela in the sacrifices that I would make for them as well.
You remember that every other things you will do today tonight with a family with were or with the kids.
To try to make the most of this evening, because tomorrow I asked them both about.
How the kids were handling at what they were doing with the kids to offer to prepare them, and they were not preparing the kids,
They have made this decision not to tell the kids about threats to the
family. To try to hide is much of it as they can allow the kid
to lead the most normal life possible and
Please tell me that they were going to be saying some special prayers that evening and brought the kids on to the call to. Let me here
the prayers and
It was kind breaking
to hear the naive
enthusiasm enjoy in the voices of the kids saying these prayers that they didn't really understand what they were praying for.
You mean you need me having a single name, because their causes
man, and I appreciate you just made a deal with you
now I am writing about on your opinion on this request and enjoy your family men. He, my friend
I don't know if it will happen its close happening. At least this is a situation.
The article gets published and what happens next?
Well right as we were, releasing the article last guy rated,
and read it in a new way, something that had never happened before
Swat team style, secret police burst into the house with
mass on, and machine guns.
And
There was no hiding out from the gates.
They said they had an order to take LEO back
military prison,
he didn't say any more than that
used to leave
but I just want to let you know that I I ask you from my heart,
You don't feel bad about anything. Please don't kill any sense of guilt by any means.
So, while the agents with there
ask the machine guns are in the house,
as is totally
deterred, leaving me voice messages in secret from
the next room with the invasion force literally.
Feet away from him years, because he's been speaking to me, the best rebellion, the best known violent protest that I can make at this moment is to speak out, and I chose to do it with you, and I ask you please you don't feel bad about, but
Please tell your people not to leave me a stray please, as here
Can I ask for you and your people don't forget about us.
Will
that. What this is about a refusal
to be silenced clearly, but also about getting the rest of us. The rest of the world to pay attention without a doubt. Part of his hope here is to get the international community engaged and invested in. I think if his imprisonment would create greater international pressure, it pushes towards regime change valid, be for,
the ultimate impact of the personal sacrifice
So far they have not fulfilled the order, for his arrest were pulled. A labelling is still at home with his family. With this increased no
very presence- and we don't know- what's gonna happen, but
Threat of re imprisonment couldn't be anyhow and we're just gonna have to find out well. Thank you very much for your time and freer reporting. Thank you I'll be right back. You know. His name did not just past HBO. Next must watch drama series, Perry, Mason, Stars, Emmy winner, Matthew, race, in an origin story for american fictions, mostly
generic criminal defence lawyer, when a gruesome murder case falls into masons lap. Uncovering the truth means exposing a city full of corruption, and everybody is guilty. Co, starring fellow Emmy winners, Tatiana Lenny and John Lisco New episodes of Perry, Mason AIR Sundays, at nine p M on HBO and stream at on HBO Max
Here's what else you need to know today so congressmen, your ending the interview phase here of the House Intelligence Committee Investigation and into Russia's meddling in the election, give us the headline. What did you find allies? Are there we ve? We reach that point were reviewed all the first. We need to improve look to some three thousand three hundred thousand documents. Seventy three other views on Monday afternoon to Reply
look in leading the Russia Investigation in the House representative. My Conaway said his
Committee has found no evidence that the Trump campaign
worked with Russia to influence
the outcome of the election, no collusion,
that you found no evidence, no evidence of collusion between the trunk campaign and the
she will help. How are they to exhibit? How confident are you well, we ve got. We found none economy defended the Republic in Control Committee agreed
with the intelligence community that Russia
interfered in the election, but of checks
to its conclusion
Russia, favour trump and procedures.
Citing you address, they do a great power. They have great power over you people. They have lost power over me. I don't want any on Monday.
Two weeks after telling lawmakers during a televised, meaning that he would fight for gun control measures opposed by the and our press
tromp abandoned that pledge in a tweet the president, backed away from his plan to raise the minimum age for buying assault weapons from eighteen to twenty one saying there was quote not much political support
to put it mildly, for the idea
but he said he would move forward with a plan backed by the energy to train teachers.
To use weapons
that's it for the daily on Michael Barbara, suitable as a surgeon and president of Howard, university Doktor Wayne Frederick, leaves even are tough his time
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-09.