Hi, I'm Alexandra De Sanctis, and along with David, french icon hosting their liberty, Podcast David, and I break down the latest political news, with a focus on the importance of culture and religion, and american life are episodes are events? twice a week and can be found on Itunes, Google play stature tune in for our national review online. Does it make any sense to pull out of Syria with Michael win? on dirty and who killed. The weekly standard will discuss all this and more on this week's edition of the editors on which lowering of joint is always, or at least some of the time by the right. Honourable Charles,

see w cook monitors boot, Michael Brendan Dorothy and the pride of Tennessee French, your listening to a national view. Podcast. If your international dot com. Or do I have you, but it would be easier for you and better for us if you made as part of your feet at Google placed at your tuning or Itunes and if you like, you hear here, please consider reviewing us an item to be dont like what you here. Please forget. I said anything So do we had a shocker this week, where at even no eight days ago, or so you had generals saying that were in Syria eyes, sustainable commitment. it's going well, you had done sign up. You know we're we're out of Syria. We beaten ISIS there's, no reason to stay with achieved wondrous victory would you make of it. You know. I think this is a terrible

decision, I arguably at its the worst decision of the trunk presidency, it's a tremendous gift to ices, because back in a week. We needed a finer terms here, so when you too talk about ices being defeated there. There two things we need to put in our minds: one ISIS, the caliphate, the physical, nation that ISIS was trying to build. Yes, that has been largely destroyed the caliphate. as a physical nation, state type entity is defeated, the actual terrorist. Organization. Ices has not- and in just to put this in perspective, We talked about when we talked about, and in people talked about the mistake, of Obama, appalling american forces from Iraq and twenty eleven. At that point, Al Qaeda in Iraq, the precursor to ices, had about seven hundred fighters only seven hundred mean when you are

king about Iraq. As a nation, it was a relatively peaceful place, Al Qaeda and I seemed to be a spent force. It was the. and the danger that Iraq with raveled, that that was not going to be sustainable without at least some american military presence? In urging many of us, they cause many of us to urge to keep troops Now that was seven hundred fighters in twenty ten now the best estimates say that ices still has between twenty and thirty thousand fighters just in Iraq and Syria, between twenty and thirty thousand fighter, so to say that we ve won and it's over and we can leave, is just factually incorrect and then one of them that I'd say. Is this deployment? There's been a lot of frustration that people have had firm american military deployment. Since nine eleven- and I understand that- and I get that this deployment

into Syria was one of the single most successful american military efforts since nine eleven with a minimal footprint and a maximum use of allies. We had crushed the ices Caliphate actually unit taken the ground where most devices was reduced, the ISIS force and had checked Syria, I mean I ran and Russia, so this was an x. ordinarily successful had been an extraordinarily successful military deployment and it wasn't all that costly, extremely cost effective you're talking about maybe four thousand soldiers between two thousand and four thousand soldiers. With a light footprint very light casualties, although you limit- every soldier lost the casualties in the operation, had been very very light and then and within job not done I ran in Russia knocking on the door with ISIS with twenty to thirty.

in fighters. Trumps says we one it's over. I just I don't get the justification so much. You probably disagree, but it seems to me I'm a David on this one. If you asked me a lot about like a decision of port of teepee, so even if you agree, the impulse we ve been too lax with with China on trade for so long pulling out of TCP as like exactly the wrong response In this case, even if you think in a were much too adventure, some and our war in Iraq and and elsewhere in the Middle EAST, we didn't get anything out of them were too ambitious in terms of the nation building. It doesn't seem as though this is the intervention you'd one who was to target to effect that that sentiment or impulse it is possible that there are that there are serious downsides to withdrawing right, for instance,

rhetorical gamesmanship Russia, on a ring, say how we kind of help to chase the Americans out of their or You know abandoning kurdish allies on the field to the the administrations of our NATO ally, Turkey and that last point gets at Why? I object to this real right of the syrian mission, which has been the biggest policy disaster since Vietnam. easily. We have been promising very stumble bomb moderate rebels are racist, for years, exam Sir Beating and extending this war, which has led to refugee crisis that has upturned every politic. Oh institution in Europe for the last four or five years we have by doing so with his light footprint, we vited challenge

from other regional or GEO political rivals that make our him are exit from this, more embarrassing. We We have a strategy, we don't have an end right, the troops, were putting their without congressional authorization they were put in their before. We even had a public debate about some level troops were put in their before we had a public debate into some thirteen about Syria. We didn't have congressional authorization of their that existing prison or larger one, because it was had no power pillar, Mandy or support which you, which democracies need to win wars What is the mission to me, like the mission is where telling the american people. We are crushing ISIS and we crush the caliphate. We are hope. To hang around until Why something happens and we can we could try to solve the american people in a regime change

policy. Again I dont understand what we therefore or were their endlessly to try to execute John carries Nick strategy negotiation, where By being there, we get a little bit more leverage at some final brokered peace Meanwhile, we have entangled alliances that put us at odds with Turkey, serious NATO ally. I, what is the benefit? What What is the benefit? Why are we to stay there. Just like we ve stayed in Afghanistan and then handed over. to gain some group of radical radical and in the end anyway, so we'll get trolley and on the congressional authorization question in a minute but David, thus just Microsoft, rhetorically, both put it to you as an actual question. What is the benefit? Well, there's clear national security than if it here and that is completely

the job of degrading ISIS into irrelevance, and the reason why you have to do that from a national security perspective is, if you're, what thing we know, and we know that there are few things that you can say about terrorism, that in the sense of can we predict when any gifts, Attack will occur Can you complete, Destroy a terrorist organisation when a terrorist organisation is often built around an idea. No, but you can suppress the third and one of the ways that we know that we absolutely no you magnify the threat is when terrorists have safe havens. Harris have safe havens, the threat to the knighted states grows period, the threat to our allies grows period and so You do when you take this american footprint when you remove it. When that then puts the Kurds in one of the worst positions of betrayal that I've seen and say the last twenty plus years, where they are

to completely shift their strategy for self preservation. You're, then panting ISIS, the ability to recreate a safe haven and when they have a safe haven they strike. This is the way it works. ices magnified and twenty fourteen when it blitzed its it's your northern Iraq and Northern Syria and twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen created, an immense, safe haven that was a magnet for terrorist training ground for terrorists. And then you look at the threat level. In the. U S and in Europe rose to the poor read not been since nine eleven in the? U S and to the point that acceded anything that we had seen in Europe a very, very long time, if ever as far as does she hottest threat, and so you're talking about a terrorist organisation that, like it or not, we may not like the fact that we have these long wars one side? A war does not end when one side says, I think I wanna leave one theatre of battle, sometimes with.

means- is that a victory for your enemy and magnifies their strength, as far as a mission goes in Syria. This is one of the clearer missions that I've seen. This is not a nation building. Mission is a mission that is eight degrade and destroy a specified enemy and then a too then hold a geographic line against geopolitical foes. Who would seek to take that geography and crush our allies. That's a clear mission and the existence of our forces there distance of that light footprint, as light as it is, is still the strong military force in the field in that part of the world even four thousand american troops supported by American. Your power is the strongest military force in the field. In that place it is decisive force, and so what we we would be doing is you'd be removing the decisive force before you have beaten enemy. You will have granted your enemy,

an immediate reprieve, which gives it the ability to strike us even here and granted two other enemies. I ran in Russia, greater influence and control over strategically vital region. This is gonna put Russians Our position in its it's been in the Middle EAST, since the cold war and oh by the way, is also going to expose Bonner greater vulnerable ability for for Israel. As far as Turkey goes We had, we were checking. Are NATO allies ambitions in crush the Kurds in northern Syria, and it wasn't didn't, take much effort to do so. into this is this is one of the lighter footprint most effective military deployment is forcing locked. The debacle of Syria strategy from most of the Obama instruction. That's absolutely true. This military footprint here was an attempt, a pretty darn, successful attempt

you square quench, the bleeding over there to end the debacle to reset the circumstances and like I said it had been extremely successful and one thing I'd say about this, has been a lot of comfort people have taken in that. about that Trump, even odious impulsive, and even though he had he was experienced that he had put some- people around him, and I can't tell you how many times I heard well got matters there. While he's got matters there he's got these generals, there they'll check him. You know he trump This is a good lesson. Trump makes the final decision. This is on Trump, and you cannot you cannot. Soul, yourself, with the notion that, while he's got good people around him and therefore good decisions will be made, he's still

the guide and makes decisions he's still the commander in chief, and that's it we're seeing this today. This engagement has had only for the briefest time popular support mandate to destroy the caliphate when it was behalf being Americans from the larger SIRI strategies I wonder who does who's going to govern the Lib province? Do we do we have to have a candidate It seems to me that what we do is we try the manufacturer, out of soon out of any were pursued, he's a soul moderate force that is going to govern, in our absence when, eventually we leave, which turns out to be never but instead What we have is ours our saudi allies, other Sunni, allied allies are funding the most radical extremists. in Syria their funding.

the them mass. features in Europe that refugees from sea then go to meet when they are trying to escape a civil war that are constant half nah involved, half involved presence. Saturated and extended. for no good reason right, like weep. There is a moral hazard and that's that is the lesson in Syria, as it was in Rwanda and elsewhere, where, if you are constantly thing like might intervene. We might intervene. You end up getting provocations from your position true rebels that exactly the violence, extend the war the date they take chances and risks in order to bring in american air support or a meal in troops on the ground to help them window we assume that they will not win that they cannot accept.

that's a great argument in two thousand and thirteen debts. Twenty eighteen now and in turn, eighteen we ve, actually got troops on the ground. We, actually have an enemy that health that is in retreat and we no the identities of the people who will be most to benefit from the pull out from a very successful intervention after twenty thirteen no, that those entities are dead, created in they sit in ices and ices is dedicated to striking us in the? U S and we know the ambitions, regional and otherwise, of IRAN in Russia. So I totally and with you about the fact listening of Obama policy in the Syrians of war. Up until the point, when ISIS was blitz, creaking three Syria and northern Iraq, I'm completely with you on that, but there is a strategic sector.

Croatia on the ground. Right now we are is not a mystery as to who benefits directly benefits from this decision. and then for trumped justified by saying things are just factually true to the american people and I'm with there should have been a congressional debate about this, there should be a congressional debate about this. Now and you know, the things about is: there's not american support for the mission. There is not and knowledge about the mission and as one the congressional debate would correct, but that that you actually through the average poker, like a last word on the policy to get justice knowledge was withheld because when people were Perdue theory into thousand thirteen of your meaning in Syria at All- for any reason, it was unpopular. Vice you, no seven or eight two three or to write did it was defeated in parliament. This was an intervening in Syria militarily was what you know: people

about way wanted what the foreign policy establishment wanted and the popular support, Wasn't there, because this establishment had been credited and well. you're talking about two different thing. So are you talking about the Obama Bombing of the Assad regime. Are you talking about the mission to defeat ISIS composer different things, and I agree with you. The disease to attack aside for his chemical weapons was deeply impact your I was against ok, but if, if your retreating in the fight against ISIS? How is that? if to Russia whose in there to protect aside, if Assad is our mission and by the this whole language of gift of Syria? I can't imagine a worse gift in the world than being handed out to sea. No middle eastern Sadr P with she had dominated serious cities. getting dominated countryside,

This is like the worst stink bomb in the world, well, it has not proven to be for putting it has not proven to be, and that that was His argument, his his mercenaries, have gotten chewed up. my materiel gets by indeed, but also by his curiosity on his Terrio gets chewed up there and and there's some is largely in Russia. In this is he's he's lost what tooth to fight or Jetson three helicopters I mean look. This is this is a a contest, Obama. Total Obama colleague said that this was a quagmire for Russia when he got involved in it. It's been extraordinarily successful for Russia and its view, easy for Russia to secure. In order to secure the vast bulk of the territory and leave alone, certain specific ices enclaves. In fact, they were doing that

hearing much it it sorted this myth that are well. You know, The report will be much harsher on ISIS, then than we were because he takes the gloves off. No, I mean he he will utilise border. Regions strategically irrelevant towns to allow ISIS to maintain training, hang ups. maintain a presence so that it can do what inflicted. Image and harm on us, even as Russia and IRAN solidify control over the populated areas, and that's that's a clear path for him. Ok, you have get Charlie. Does this abandonment of fattening uttered? A silence from Charlie Cook in the package is begin to freak me out and like make after China. You, you don't have a strong views on the policy matter, but care very much about the question of rational authorization idea

I think the sunrise their related, and this is in no way to despise the fascinating debate, which is TAT, which was extremely valuable, especially for somebody like me who who needs to hear this at this this argument, but it does strike me that we are all sitting around content in our impotence: praying for wisdom from the king David said- and I know David agrees with me on this David said this is on Trump. Well, yes, if the question is, does Trump or do trumps advises, hold the cards but it couldn't be on Trump. This is what we get when we allow the complete collapse of congressional oversight, overall foreign policy, which we have done now for two decades. This is finger in the eye to both Hamilton and Madison

this is a finger in the eye. So one of the founding principles of this country. This isn't a chump thing. This decision might be a trump thing. This world, you might be a trump thing, but this this question: does not revolve. Ultimately, around trump. We Have the same arguments under Hilary people might be more or less upset we had the same arguments under Obama. We had the same arguments to a slightly lesser extent under Bush. The prey It has determined our war policy for nineteen years to the extent that break Burma who ran famously complaining about executive, guns who said in an interview with the Boston Globe Congress needed to decide when we to war The eu- and that was not good enough-

did up saying when he wanted to go into Syria, that, while it doesnt really, matter what Congress says I'll ask them, but I get to decide and an into a memo. The trump is now using. So you want about the Iraq war list. It went through Congress, I cannot help but suspect. And I suppose in some ways I therefore side with Michael, I can't help. It suspect that the route argument here is that we can't ask Congress to get involved because Americans won't, want these wars- or they won't understand them- and I think there is an to say that, given that the the least hawkish kind, It has now one three times in a row was George Bush back into

housing price in nine nine eleven. It was most definitely Barack Obama in two thousand date, and it was Donald Trump in two thousand. Sixteen. I think that the argument seems to be that Americans are interested. They are wrong, are wrong to isolationist too, the ball and that they must therefore be bypassed that we ve now handed our our war making to the executive and that's good, because we can surround the executive with people who know better with people who on Council directly, who can't lose an election who can't have to be put on the record in their support or opposition

that's what I hear when I hear people in Congress saying this is outrageous. All the experts disagree. This is too important. My goodness look at the consequences is a consequence of it. Argument is not a smaller republican argument, the thing is even if their correct, even if David is correct, even if John Mccain, we all know, would have been in favour of staying. Even if that mission, was correct. It's just not how the system works, you can say, credibly objectively, we have to stay all these terrible things will happen. but you don't get to say it too important to go to Congress. Nine David isn't saying- and I know Michael isn't saying that I know that solid on this, but that is It seems what we have decided as a country, and I think that these jesuitical arguments about

the EU I'm off and what was delegated and whether this counter terrorism, what's national defence and whether the President's helping protect the country miss the point that legit that you do not get to hand over power in perpetuity to other branches and that they didn't get during the new deal they ve got away with it too much, but the court came into struck down and they shouldn't get to do it now and so we are sitting here in a position that should be more familiar to serfs, who accept that the king has absolute power and hope they can? get on their knees and pray that he does the right thing that he's too, The swayed by wisdom, why what we should be doing is demanding that the legislature, the prime branch, the branch through which the public is most keenly represented, gets its act together.

this debate on the floor and demands that no action will be taken without approval. I don't think you can separate this debate from from that structural issues, so I have to but it really quickly and on one choice, premises in that very good statement, is that the public private go along. I think, obviously, the the Congress would not have approved Obama's proposed bombing in retaliation for then the chemical weapons attack. I do think this Anti ISIS mission would have been approved round the time in a Michael, your mentioning the head I think there is a way of support for knocking airing arraignment the caliphate, and then there would have been very strong congressional vote for that, then, I'm not sure about now, but if it be having to debate and finding out

all right. I think you're you're exactly what we need to have the debate and- and I think, if you, if there people who believe, as I do, that this is very simple for american National Security, make the case at what that's one of the problems when you Don't have a congressional debate. Is the American wake up one morning and suddenly realised, for example, what the heck we have troops and easier. What the heck we have. Four thousand soldiers in Syria in now Sometimes, even when you have a congressional debate peopled Hutton how it's going on, but at least when you have a congressional debate, you are raising public awareness, it helps educate the public. The public, through its elected representative representatives, it's a voice in these incredibly important decisions and richer. I'm completely with you that the original sin here on the congressional debate was not having it and twenty fourteen when obey

We decided to reinstate troops into Iraq and to insert troops in Syria. He treated that is a continuation of an existing conflict as a matter of law when it was not it was a new conflict with the new enemy and what you are supposed to do in that circumstance, is go to Congress and get congressional approval before launching what is what is under international law, a war, and he didn't do it. Therefore, we are where we are now where'd, Michael. And Charlie can say with absolute accuracy that way fighting, a war that the american people did not agree to fight. I think Would you do now, as you go to Congress, and you seek authorization, that's how you remedy the constitutional problem. Trump is true choosing to remedy the constitutional problem. I think in the First way with precipitous withdraw without seeking congressional authorization. Sir Ector question to you First

Michael percentage adds that Donald Trump will reverse or partially reverse himself on the Syria pull out zero. It's written in stone forget about it. A hundred percent. The generals will end up bending him. Meanwhile, I wanna see about ninety percent. Tremble an extremely erratic in the last couple of weeks, especially about is this regions in we're. Never shut down. We're not gonna, be shut down we're going to let you know what we're sticking with Syria were abandoning it. I am, I just think the pattern of trumps challenge please stop judgement. Is that trumped doesn't have the personnel or the energy and will to actually fight it? Charlie, zero. Two hundred I'd say this about a fifty fifty chance. Chump is

probably the one president who is most likely of a recent said to go through that, because he since in the air that the people he needs to keep on his side for his re election campaign will not want this action Now that does mean they're right, as I said, but there is a latent suspicion of our involvement abroad and especially, I think among the sort of people who flip between the two parties, so I think it's much higher than it would be. Usually that said, he doesn't have an intellectual framework with which to evaluate this question and when that is the case, it much easier to change. Somebody's mine, David you're, two hundred I think I'm gonna cheat and I say- and I think what you might end up with is an out in process. In other words, he goes out

but he maintains sort of the aerial presence, and then you maintain the aerial, presents eventually generals will say we can't be effective in that, unless we at least have some some tiny few bids on the ground, and we're gonna be right back room, or I think about fifty feet we agree with Charlie trumpet. Certainly the present, who Try says most likely to go through with this he's. Also, the president most likely to reverse himself another beneath dreaming a headlines about his decision to pull out, which most presence would feel kind of locked in after that it would have had in a fairly sustain process too, to this decision, people are going to work on Trump and have been working on tromp, and I think part of what happened here is the people who worked on. It

work on it doing it the wrong way and he got his back up, and this is obviously his impulse and his instinct, but when I think, push comes to shove and with when the consequences become more evident and when the cut in the the operational details become a little more come to the forest. David suggests, I think, there's there is. There is a substantial chance, your versus himself, I'm gonna, go fifty fifty. So let me pause before we move on to our next topic, which is Michael Flow, to invite or listeners to consider all those things they spend. Five now a day on Earth five dollars a month, on what underwater event he drank at Starbucks boxes, five dollars in New York, at least. If you try to get a fairly cheap lunch, five dollars, maybe

you half of it or a third of the cost. You probably spend five dollars and a month on dental flaws or on toothpaste. So I urge you to consider spending five dollars a month on and our plus, which is of a fantastic deal and I take its easily- can no brainer worth five dollars a month to you to get all of national use content, including the print magazine, content and the exclusive content on at a row that is increasingly kind of metered pay wall. You been, if I'm sure you ve, noticed more more key icon going up on homepage? That's because more moron content on Homepage is reserved for an hour. US members, if you want access to all that you gotta sign up, only cause five dollars a month. You get an ad free experience ninety percent fewer adds no ads on articles, so no not just adds flashing around distracting

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large. They also want to watch your inbox for that. So please check out and our plus NASH review dot com. There are all sorts of of distant different options for you, but about fifty dollars a year and I think is a great deal. So please check it out and hope you sign up so Charlie, let's move onto Michael Flynn, so there is bizarre, sentencing hearing that didn't actually result and Michael flints sentencing and there had been some speculation among friends defenders that the judge would be appalled by Robert Moors Tactics, perhaps not counted. The plea deal or in some way take Mahler down an odd, because Flynn had been treated so on unfairly in kind of force into pleading pleading, do something he wasn't guilty. Of course it goes. absolutely the other way and judge not avoid doesn't that argument. He

accuses appallingly Michael Flynn of treason openly in the courtroom? What do you make of it? Why keep saying people say that term microfinance sentence has been delayed, but I also read that he's been forced to stay within fifty miles Washington DC, so it is clearly been imposed at one level. May be to a degree of cruel and unusual punishment he is now in a weak position, because he is not somebody who I would have any instinct whatsoever to defend, and I think some of the things the judge said were true, not all of them but a judge should not be behaving my bad. It reminded me in some ways of judge, Aqua, Lena and Larry NASA sexual abuse case

Well yeah I mean the righteous indignation is entirely understandable and is tardy warranted from everyone, except the judge who has been tasked with presiding over the case. If I were the law his hair for Michael Flynn. I would be rather peeved, because I think that the judges has as disgraced himself now I mean If this were a sentencing herring, then maybe there would be a little more scope for for judgment, but it wasn't whenever the whole point of us of that outburst

it wasn't- and I think the judge understood that he'd gone too far because he said disregarded disregard. What what I just said needs pointing at the flag and sang this, isn't what it stands for his musing that he could potentially have been guilty of treason and so on and so forth. I'm not I'm not especially bothered by the structure of this delay and when it is. It is a difficult question. If, if you are making the case that you should receive a limited sentence because. cooperated well with the authorities than it is incumbent upon the person charged with handing out the sentence to determine whether or not you have been cooperating with the authorities and what that means in practice for the the system to have taken a break? While that question is resolved, it is fine.

But to do it in this manner, is probably the worst possible thing that could have happened, because it will give the people who think that Michael Fund should be drawn up in a town square, even more reason to think basin and, by extension, to think that Trump should go with him and it will give the p Who believed that the deep state is conspiring to take down anyone who came within twenty miles of the White House and that in a dark from can't get it a hearing, even more reason to think that is not good in the long run for a system of justice. Even if, like me, you think Michael Flynn is a reprehensible card to whose behaved in a way that whether he should go to jail or not should should should make him a figure of national hatred. So David, you were never a believer ended the flint was done territory, never

You know it's a shame that the judge went too far. It's in his rhetoric in the courtroom, because had he not gone too far this moment would have been a real object lesson an object lesson in a terrible legal strategy. For example, when you have pledged guilty to cry times when you know that you would have been charged with more I think a lot of people are doing what a lot of the political debate about Flynn has done his spin often to minimize the existing crimes that he's been charged with and to ignore the fact that he could have been charged with more than the actual. Please deal that he struck was in many ways an act of mercy contingent upon him accepting responsibility any cooperating Instead, what is liars essentially did? Was they tried to have it both ways? They tried to say that he is accepted

responsibility has cooperated in oh by the way. This was unfair from the beginning and that's an argument that works to members of the public, who don't know the full facts not an argument with a judge who has read the non reacted portions of filings. You know The larger picture, a new scans the twin. Could it have been charged with more crimes and that one of the more interesting aspects of the hearing was you know, a lot of people are anticipating this moment is they knew? The judge was a no nonsense guy and they thought that he he would check Mahler what he's a no no since guy all right He did is essentially called the Flint defence teams bluff and made them stand up open court and see if there were going to repeat Many of the arguments that you heard all over. You know the radio and and tv and twitter, and that such her about the unfairness of the process, and they wouldn't do it and they wouldn't do it for good and because they knew the

formation. The rest of us, it didn't know or didn't fully understand, and that was that the plea agree. it was hardly encompassing the sum total of Michael Flints wrongdoing and the was more wrong doing. He had not been charged with any wasn't charged with it because he was cooperating and that's when a witness or that's when I when a defendant goes take. Their medicine I cooperated and essentially throws self, on the mercy of the court and his legal he didn't do that and they didn't. You know it. They're smart, lawyers. It makes me wonder why, and pardon me wonders if, if this is angling for a pardon, but it was ass from a legal perspective, a disastrous choice, so Michael, it's episode is mysterious right. Is it the FBI agents goaded Flynn knowing that

What Flynn said on these calls with russian ambassador and asked him what he said on the cars with russian Ambassador in Flynn is aware that they know and when they correct to his memory or sub prime, him a cop ties us, oh good, good reminder thanks remind me of that, but he still deceived. try to get away with lying about it and adjust its it's. It's hard to understand what s possible use thinking, doom, there's a lot of bizarre. I mean was a little bit. like he lied, but he also lied when he was ambushed was really think very odd thing. Not a good look for you know can dismiss all of the Ce Mark, a head

apologies to defend every tromp official in every way, but It's not a good look for Jim COM. You too have said they got away with something when they went to flag on this. Can day to ask. Questions when you know he really should have had legal counsel if he was going to protect himself in interview. You know that that's that's separate from the problems. When the had, which were serious ones, He should have been registered as a foreign agent. it's an ally, but you still have to register as we hit. Turkey keeps coming in today's episode of the editors as this ally Not quite now, I you know, I thought I thought the ices anyway. Sorry, I'm Turning to my thoughts that such an on case, the judge was too

really out of line and was bizarre and expressing any I'm glad that he came back and sort of wheeled himself in but, Finally, because you can put the words back in the box No, I can't I don't know where this on professionalism is like erruptive in the legal profession. Is it, as has the same reasons I make that my heart, like come from the fact that you can now say anything providing its related to the Trump administration as large. Try proves every day and people clap you wildly Xavier hair of the resistance in nineteen forties. France is preposterous. An outside Europe. I don't know whether David has ceased to be. This is kind of a judge. You would pass about other cases as Well, so I hated assistants. Judging it is definitely phenomenon, I'm just not sure whether this this this particular episode was an example that I mean

federal judges popping off is happens every day, all all the time across the country I mean we, We lawyers have a term for it, for it judge Idas. This is the kind saying that, You are, if you have not been a an attorney in federal court. and if you ve been an attorney. The report you have not at some point witnessed some sort of really withering federal. Ty tirade, you haven't necessarily practiced all that. And it's over, it's a problem, it's all over the tiring does the tyrant aspect, which and understand some judges view themselves like. Ok, I have to be the voice in a sense of justice, and justice should be righteous. In some ways, and maybe righteously indignant like he's drawing room, The word treason as if like they're on paper

military courts martial in the battlefield in and when is about to be delivered the coup de grace in a few minutes It's so bizarre, Execration tried to you on this Donald Trump. Pardon Michael Flynn, yes or no. I think, if we ve done, is enough. contacts, and my answer is always, I hope not. Could I see it happening yes, scotch. My instinct now is to say yes, which I didn't expect David friend, Yes, in the closing moments, vizir ministries, whenever that is Michael. Yes, I think yes, I agree with David

in closing moments where I think it would be most appropriate and Flynn it doesnt quite conform, but of the people caught up in the more probe in other man affords an Cohen's and the rest of them Flynn is the closest to the type of figure has traditionally is pardoned at the end. Someone who has an honourable record of public sir, You know that Paul man afford doesn't someone who's, not a maid, said millions of office crimes over decade or more. The way parliament and Ford has, but someone who made poor, really port choices and got caught up in this. This investigative machinery. So, Michael another big events. Last week list in our world was the untimely and tragic death of weekly stand

where we have a lot of friends and colleagues and for it three years they really produced a wonderful application to cut a model of wood, high and opinion journalism should be an wild. What you said about this on twitter and and elsewhere, and despite the fact that you are opposed to it the standards crusading of foreign policy. You admired what they did: Listen you gamers, ex game in this business right and I'm the weekly standard, it was even a place. I wanted to work at one point in two thousand six, when I first went to Washington was the first place I applied for a job. I had When I was younger, I had I was in high school, the nineties when the weekly Saner was launched an eye. an english teacher who kind of fed me Christopher Higgins and the staff, and then I went to the bookstore.

Saw a book edited by Christopher Kitchens and Christopher Caldwell Caldwell of weekly standard can a gathering the best essays of the nineties left and right on politics and em. Thing from a standard was awesome, Karlsson, Caldwell, Ferguson, labelling. They are all there and dumb. They were made awesome through twenty three years and they had agreed back in the book section. They D. They really set a high tone for cultural criticism and a great they made great enemy. Hence in in their writers, What things I really like about the way, the crystal handled his, a ship. There was that he, you know you could see you. Iders defending

Article movements are ideas that he didn't like and he just let it fly. You know everyone knew what the standard stood for, what Bill Crystal stood for, but You know the writers were allowed to be heterodox in their own ways, even subversive and- and so I thought his great. I think it's a huge loss, and you know it. Everyone who it's good writing from four times magazine to Esquire to national view too. You know the new Washington, examiner magazines. Can we launch should be scrambling to pick up whatever talent they can try? Why? I think it's always a bad thing when a magazine dies and magazine died and not. It seems a great reason. I'm a free market here, if there is no demand for a product anymore, then

I might miss it, but it should probably go away. I don't want to subsidize my preferences with other people's money, but that doesn't it, to be what happened here and indeed that there was still demand plays into the story, because the subscribers last is being transferred. It's not that it had whittled down to zero, was valuable enough to keep and transfer to the new proposition the Washington Examiners magazine. This is, I think, one of the downside to being owned by one person, somebody who can change their mind on a whim and the weekly standard was there are two sides to that time. Aijin narrow sit down, so I assumed this was one of them, and that has, think that has led to more anger and less closure than would have been the case with the weak. The standard in other sectors

If people say you know what, for whatever reason, we just don't want your product anymore. We don't want your magazine, we don't want your writers, you on doing it. For me that might hurt you. It might sting you, but at least its clear if somebody takes of venture that is still fine, ostensibly that is chock full of talented people, people whose whose talent is undeniable and then just kills it that's going to make people behind it and the people within it angry and it's going to make them

especially angry if attempts to preserve that venture are blocked, nodded failed but are blocked in that. But to seems to be what's happened here site, I think it's. I do think it's a real shame, and I think you know in a time in which we have a lot of click bait and a lot of Leicester calls and a lot of, dreaming headlines, it is it. Is it bad thing to see a more thoughtful, long form, reflective organization, being shut down, and I thought is worth would say that, even if the organization we're not broadly on my side, I dont want donation to go out of business. I do I don't want the New republic to go out of business.

It David? It's I don't know all the details and all the relationships. Another commercial considerations budgets seems strange to own a week. Lee political magazine and then drive a stake through its heart. so you can start another weekly. Basically, the commission's main, although you are saying, is gonna have Travelin and lifestyle kind of pieces, but I expect open end up being a. political magazine? This is a very strange choice. I love Seth Mandela. He is my editor at the near post for very long time he's very Guys can be the executive editor and driving the new examined. eggs in some curious. You know in what one is curious, what it what it will be an, but it is just that it's just we're that it feels like a act, wanton destruction

Yeah, I mean that's one of the things about this. It I've been watching a lot of the commentary and an awful lot of people been trying to fit it into political narrative. There's no market for that, never trump perspective, or this is punishment for being never Trump or the owner wanted to exalt the or wanted to meet presented more trompe like all of those things, don't really work here, Charley was saying there are. There were buyers available for the weekly standard, so there were people who wanted the weekly standard to continue our from what I understand stand like many. A print publication the circulation of that of the magazine. Maybe in declining be the actual readership, a product was increasing because more people reading online and then whole thing that the whole narrative that says they wanted to kill a a anti trump

obligations and promote approach from publication, doesn't work because as much many people know says Mandela's the furthest thing from being a trompe editor in his happy. J Caruso is the same way so there are so many ways just this felt pointless in it also resulted. I think unfold not in a lotta anger, unjustified at the folks. At the examiner mean they didn't have anything to do with this, and I wish them every success in their new weekly. It just was I'd. It was strange, it seemed so pointless and you know it and not just kind of leaves you shaking her head and in it. It does raise its interesting object. Lesson for the question of you know if you re, if you're a nonprofit her or similar entity. Do you want the

big donor or owner, or do you want the many smaller ones, and this was an argument for the many smaller over the one dominate so Michael ethical to you? We are living through a golden age of opinion, journalism, the bronze age, opinion, journalist, the stone age, opinion journalism. All the above. Ninety above. None of the above, its its name, it has clear defects and clear advantages. I think. The filters being taken off and everyone having a voice into twitter into social media. he's been a really mixed bag. In fact, one of the things it's been nice I think magazines, have responded to changes in politics. Changes in you know Washington, pretty well

in fact, and have adapted damn it we could standard was adapting to, and it's a shame that that was cut off Charlie. I think opinion journalism is in quite a bad, I think that its much much better at the moment on the right and it is on the left. I think, because there is such a robust, Intramural fight over where things have gone last year's, and also because we don't tend to block off certain avenues and and say that they can be discussed, which M, which is the new habit on the left, and I hope that will not work age, but I certainly would not include the weakest that in my in minority list, I think I think they were producing some great stuff and they had some great writers, get it

with some marvellous and notable exceptions. Is there something worse than the stone age, I mean a chart Charlie the nail on the head. I mean it we on the left. There is a cell censorship or a mom mentality that often erupt. That, I think, is the enemy of of intellectual discourse, there's some in their some brave dissenters. From that on the left there. Some folks on the left are trying to you. Don't really get working in and willingness to take on that the online mob and Green Charlie, that I think overall the right is healthier, but I have, I will say that I've seen some of the dumbest commentary

We in my entire life on the right, I think over all its healthier, but there are elements of it that are just so transparently trash that it's hard to save and that the entire to say that the right as healthy. So I think it's whatever is worse worse in the stone age. So fairly optimistic actually say all the above all things the golden age, because there is so much good journalism, letting go out there and get the death of the weekly standing on the right is is a major blow. This Have national affairs edited by you all of em? You have american affairs, which is kind of a mega alternative you have the american interests, you have the national interest kind of in the foreign policy space and and both of those publications also publish set some political and cultural cometary, especially the American.

tourist, you had a new criterion, Heavily Claremont Review of books. You have city journal, so there's a lot of good journalism out there, but there's also just like an incredible amount of schlock which goes to the stone age. Or worse, a lot of it enabled by social media where it you just just you wanna take shower after you read some of this. especially in a lot of it's a directed at David and Nancy, which is appalling. Said David. I would understand why you in particular could say it is worse than it is at the stone age, but it is good that is completely disgusting and has been enabled by this by the new technological. Environment. So I am optimistic and I think it's it's it's both lotta good stuff. You wanna fuck.

go, get it you get it quicker than ever before. They can also marinate incomplete crap. If you want to allow people do so before we were endless pod Castro couple days away from Christmas, so let me ask, Christmas themed begs the question of everyone. I start with you Michael. What is your favorite Christs Christmas memory or tradition? I like midnight mass. I, like the colleagues, do this night thing. I liked it since childhood. It always felt like slightly run to be in a church at midnight when you are young and How is apparent? I really appreciate it because my kids, a young enough that they're just asleep in the pews, and for once I not wrestling with them and I can actually enjoy the servants gave French

Christmas Eve Service in and my church, two hundred and nine year old, church, Presbyterian Church and it said just a marvellous communal, tradition and is one of the things that I lament. We just move from Colombia Tennessee to a suburb of National called Frank, Linen so unfortunately had to change. Churches, but for the Daphne, as we were there. That was just a man, marvelous marvellous moment and the need, and then sort of anymore secular sense. There's few better I'm the year than the week between Christmas and new year, people just seem to be relaxed. It's a scam, we're pace of life and it is almost feels like you get. I sneaky free vacation in their travelling enough at the house

that heading honest answer now I was fortunate enough to go to church kings College Classical in Cambridge and debt that school, as some people might now, has a fantastic quiet and the title, and that Choir broadcasts eight nine lessons and Carol Service from kings college. Cambridge, on Christmas Eve, the mind is also a Christmas Eve choice. I grew up listening to its extraordinarily evocative. I think its extraordinary evocative for even people who who didn't you grow up with with proximity to two that choir. It is a national tradition as well as the tradition from my family, and there is no Christmas for me. I without it somewhat Michael David Christmas

Eve, I think just Christmas Eve in general. There's this wonderful sense of quiet and anticipation in the air, and we also have a family tradition of going to midnight it's not literally midnight thing started at eleven p M local presbyterian church, but largely a service based on Christmas readings and then songs ending with silent night with the the lights out and candles passed around. So just wonderful tradition just brings home how this is a night Like no other said before we move on it's time, for editors picks David. What your pic market gives a great peace by tearing up for about. What's the matter with white liberals you know, is becoming increasingly clear that nobody hates white people more than white liberals and it it's

really astonishing, when you do a deep divers teddy did in to this war, of whiteness studies. The the anxiety and annexed that people feel about their own? race, skin, color and privilege. This paralyzing self censorship. it really is a great. It really is a great peace in, and I think you know tat, he gets it. What a lot of people understand about this that this isn't there there's. A lot of well meaning people here indulging in a lot of bad ideas, but also some of what's going on is isn't so much real, ensure interest speck introspection about whiteness, but a lot of war, I would argue, classicism.

And more of a sort of the traditional culture war filtered through this sort of obsession with white privilege, but it's a great peace, its excellent piece. I would urge people to read. It is called, what's the matter with white liberals Charlie That's your pic audits, Carl Smith, on the movie Aqua Man, which he just saw, was the most steaming pile of garbage I liked it because Kyle clearly doesnt really count anyone thinks of him and and rights accordingly, which is, however, one should behave. it also because he summed up something I began to suspect, which is that the the superhero movies yonder is running out of ideas, has become repetitive, is far too reliant on CD. I'm is clearly being made for chinese audience. That

language barrier, and but that doesn't matter and inaction movies and hopefully, hopefully will begin to give way a little I'm nothing as these movies per se. If, where little so, that other movies can be made right? the same movie being made over and over again with characters that have only different names like what you pick genuinely or has a peace that was in the magazine in this kind of action an online. It's like a perfect Jean ordering are pieces interview he does with the Vietnamese pops you're. My joy and it's just breathing. You want energy, Nord linger peace, a kind of dissident figure, ah Jays kind of fascination with music itself, and his personalities, through and so does his subjects for my pig. Is it a piece by Graham Hill,

weird and a new edition of National you about church names and really charming: Corky Peace that also deep meditation about their religious landscape in America that's it for us. You can listen to a natural you pod Castillo. We brought cast retransmission Canada's game. Without the express written permission of National you magazine is strictly prohibited. Pot gas has been produced by the incomparable, sir, should he who makes a sound better than we deserve thanks Charlie. Thank you David. Thank you, Michael thanks to everyone for listening and merry Christmas.